#Put any of your negative thoughts about them in anti-tags

[oveliagirlhaditright]

Bangel haters keep your anti-posts out of their tag challenge: challenge (always) failed.

[nogodsnomorales]

Know that I am going to get pretty serious here, as this post is about Punkflower. I am going to talk about the age situation, the blatant racism ABOUT this ship, and to also talk about the ship itself*. There is also some talk about the shippers/non-shippers + Punkflower antis in general.

[*nothing negative! just like.. discussing it as a whole, because everybody needs to be aware of some important things. the shippers, non-shippers/people on neutral ground, AND the haters/antis.]

There is a BIG wall of text incoming, but all of it is organized to its very best at what I could do!! I first wrote this in docs, I did my best to make it not a whole chaotic mess to read through. It's a big post, but there's a lot of spacing and some text is coloured, so it will be very easy to read.

This is a very detailed and THROUGH post, so it is slightly recommended to read on computer for the best viewing experience.

[It's not needed as you can still just read on your phone/etc, I do want you lovely people to have the best viewing experience possible.]

There will be an expand button, so I will not clog your feed and the tags.

TDLR;

Dear punkflower shippers,

your prayers have been ANSWERED. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT SHIPPING PUNKFLOWER NOW 🙏

punkflower shippers, do not live in fear no more, for I am here now.

Sincerely, 

tumblr user: godunforgiving

Edited Note (06/21); FYI, I am muting this! Read the edit change log at the end of this post for more information. If you have any concerns or inquiries regarding this post, do not hesitate and feel free to DM me!

punkflower talk/analysis(?) + talking about Hobie’s age

This entire post is a discussion of various things, of my own thoughts and opinions! Some of the talk is about the posts + comments I have seen other people say about this ship [mainly questioning and worried ones.] All of the pieces of information that I knew were scattered, so I wanted to gather all of what I could find, and put it in a singular post for those still worrying.

[Also where others can actually just refer to this post and just read thru here first, instead of having to spend a lot of time going through the Punkflower tag to desperately find info!]

I would have gotten this finished and posted days ago, but you know, usual IRL things slowed me down, and I had to spend my day in the ER yesterday, lol.. I’m okay as of now! Just have to take it easy, but I really did want to finish writing my ass off with this post, since I know it’s important to me and for many others out there.

Take your time to read through this, and please absolutely feel free to add any of your input/extra knowledge/anything that I should add onto this post. DMs can be the best, or just through the comments can suffice, because I can and will edit anything into this post [that is accurate aka there is backed up evidence/sources to go along with it.] If you do want to see something added here, just tell me and I'll see if I can manage!

I genuinely hope that this post can be helpful to you, as it will be helpful for me!

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Please know that; I will directly quote from many people, as all of them will be credited properly by being mentioned down below and leaving their username (that is linked back) with their respective quotes, because their own pieces of text really helped build this post! I cannot thank each person enough.

Do not be a piece of shit and go after or ‘witch hunt’ any of them. Respect their own privacy and being.

users mentioned (IOOA): @comfortingnightmare, @luvvnobo, @ghostspider-isms, @saltylemonade13, @artisan-is-bored, @bellamer, @uglynavel, @peachypea0ny (fyi, site is not allowing me to tag), @crownecromancer, @raspberryjars, @spideyzpoolsp, @hamiltonforpowerpoint

[If you are one of the mentioned people, and you want yourself to be removed or become anonymous, please let me know ASAP!]

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Notes:

If you are colourblind (some of the text is coloured fyi! colours used are blue, pink, and purple), or have difficulty reading text due to it being too small, or can't read the font, etc, please let me know! I can give you a google docs link of this entire post that is best suited for your needs. No, you will not be a burden to me. Your needs are very important, and I will want to assist with the best that I can do with that!

I, godunforgiving, am on a mix of a positive + neutral ground on the topic of shipping Punkflower. I absolutely adore the comic!Punkflower, and I am fond of ATSV!Punkflower with the way I view it. Reason why I said neutral, know that I am not against the ships by any means!! But I guess why I say that is because there wasn’t a lot of canon media to consume [ATSV!Punkflower], and I want more [Also note that I have NOT seen the movie yet.] I don’t usually ‘do’ shipping when it comes to various franchises, I guess it’s mainly just not my thing? But I do know that I’ve come to like Punkflower.

I do not ‘do’ discourses, nor do I intend to actively join them! This is my first time doing something like this / this being my first ‘discourse’, yet I hope for it to be my last. I made this post with the pure intention to help the Punkflower shippers. Do know that!! I know that many people do not like the topic of discourses, but this one and the problems I’ve seen revolving around Punkflower, I just have to say something. Bc idk if anybody else is going to [with the way I did this post], considering the mess that occurred days ago, but someone has to and has to do it properly.

I am autistic, so I may process words + information differently, or even ‘incorrectly’. So if a sentence doesn’t make sense, due to perhaps my misuse of grammar, etc, please do not hesitate to ask/reach out, and I can do my best to re-explain it to you.

Negative comments [and comments directly to this post where the person is actually spreading misinfo], will be deleted. Know that if you decide that you disagree with this post, then okay! I am not bothering you, just as I hope that you will revert to ignoring me, instead of hating on me. Please have the common decency to just be kind or even don’t say anything at all, and carry on with your day.

If you have any concerns regarding this post, do not hesitate to reach out to me.

this post was originally inspired by a friend, then originally created for @feuille-morte, but it is finished for the rest of the punkflower fans, ily all. take care of yourselves!! anything for these cute silly little guys ok (and the entire punkflower nation)

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let’s get started with an introduction.

“what is Punkflower?”

Punkflower is a slash [aka queer] relationship between two black male teenagers, Hobie Brown and Miles Morales. Usually, it is perceived a romantic relationship, as some other people only see the pairing as a platonic duo and such. I do not know more forms of Punkflower, but I will use the 'main' two forms in this post. Comic![SG!]Punkflower [SG is Spider-Geddon, a comic series first released on Sept 2018], and Across the Spider-Verse aka ATSV!Punkflower.

Think of it as the same ships with the same characters, but in different fonts.

Comic!SG!Punkflower has existed for nearly 5 years now, likely first existing sometime in late 2018 to early-mid 2019. Both Miles and Hobie are very close in age in the comics, at around 16 to 17 years old. Away from Spider-Geddon(?), but still on the topic of comics, Hobie is still 16-17 in the comics.

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“people are saying Punkflower is a problematic ship!”

The main [and probably only] source of this misinformation, is from a clip that was cropped to be posted with the intention of spreading heavy misinformation (We will get into that next.) So, as far as I am aware, and know; Punkflower antis are throwing around p/do allegations, because they hate the ship and they are outraged with people enjoying it. This hate is clearly rooted with racism, and homophobia. So, no, Punkflower is not a minor x adult ship!

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“the interview talk, what happened, and what is actually real?”

If you’ve watched the interview, you can easily see that they were talking about the brainstorming process of developing Hobie's early ideas for his character. A director mentioned that in the early concept stage, Hobie was originally going to be 19-20 [This wasn’t even our Hobie, but Prowler Hobie.]

A person cut a very small clip of the mentioned interview, and uploaded it, a clip that was EXTREMELY out of context. 

The uploader cut out the part explaining that Hobie’s ‘original’ age had changed as his character was being developed.

So from this, and no context given, a lot of people were instantly quick to hate; since it was on purpose to make the entire ship, AND those who enjoyed the ship, look extremely bad. What happened was not okay, yet this disgusting behaviour is at an attempt to be justified [and those people are trying to justify literal racism and homophobia.]

“19-20 thing that the directors mentioned were Hobie’s early designs ideas but those eventually changed as his character changed. Even one of the directors said its up to interpretation plus even his VA was all hinty towards Gwen and hobie so honestly its up to you what his age is" - comfortingnightmare

As soon as the clip came out, I had started to see a number of people saying that, apparently, Hobie looked like he was in his 20s to his 30s** (while also throwing subtle/discreet hits towards the Punkflower ship), but this was after the clip came out.

**Literally saw someone on Tumblr say that he looked like 28, and trying to shut down the idea of Hobie being a teenager. Like be completely serious with me right now..

Things don’t quite add up here. This was because of WHAT Hobie only looked like, and now it just has to be racially motivated, as there are no solid explanations or reasonings for their behaviour and disgust. Those people just look bad [as they should.]

So, no, Hobie is not 19-20. Another director had confirmed that Hobie’s age is UP TO INTERPRETATION.

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[TLDR; The interview got taken completely out of context from a clip that made people start throwing SERIOUS accusations left and right.. Since more people actually later found out that the clip was taken out of context [instead of doing research], the situation died down, but people are walking on eggshells now. The haters were being desperate likely because Punkflower is a black queer/mlm relationship, since there is no solid explanation for this hating.]

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“So.. what can we interpret Hobie’s age as?”

That is where I come in! I have many reasons that can help you decide what Hobie's age is to you. And those many reasons are speculated on Hobie's age being 16-17, as many users already guess that Hobie's age is equivalent to a teenager's age. I also believe this idea, as there are many things that already support this thought process.

[But if you like.. (god, I hope nobody does) go through this list and conclude that Hobie is 18+ and continue to ship that Hobie and 15 yr old Miles (or any of the minors).. GTFOH.]

1. Hobie Brown in other media (I’m talking about the comics for instance) is commonly shown for Hobie to be a teenager at either 16 or 17 years old.

“Hobie is in fact labeled as ‘badmouthed teenager’ since 2014 and is 16-17 in the comics and that just because he doesnt have a confirmed/canonical age in ATSV, hes still in the age range of a teenager (16-18)" - luvvnobo

2. Topic of the spider-bite. 

ATSV!Hobie is likely to be 16-17 years old (18 at the latest), meaning that he would have been bit at the ages of 13-15. So IF Hobie was bit 3 years ago / at 14 years old, then he would be 16-17.

Realistically, this really could have happened, considering Hobie’s living conditions! [aka what led to Hobie getting bit by a radioactive spider in the comics.] If he indeed gets bit at 14 years old (like how Miles and Gwen got bit at that age for example), then either 16 or 17 yrs old.

Again, with how he lived; if he got bit at 13 = 15-16 years old in crrnt events of ATSV. [If you don’t know of Hobie’s conditions, in the comics I’m pretty sure he, like, basically lived on the streets as a homeless teenager]

“During the "Spider-Verse" storyline, the Earth-138 version of Spider-Man is revealed to be Hobart Brown, originally operating as Spider-Punk. He is a homeless teenager who was transformed by a spider that was irradiated as part of President Norman Osborn's toxic waste dumping.” - Spider-Punk: Wikipedia

The topic of the bite / needing to know if Hobie was (x) age when he got bit, isn’t very serious, as he is already grouped with 3 kids.

3. It would be unlikely (and also weird) for a four man crew to be 3/4 teenagers and 1 adult;

WHILE ALSO implying that the mentioned ‘adult’ and one of the mentioned teenagers could’ve had something going on. [Even if nothing really happened (keyword = implying), and how Pavitr treated it in that way, implies that Hobie isn’t that much older than the three.] [I would have kept this reason combined with the Spider bite topic aka reason No.2, since it’s actually referenced off of pastelnightgale’s post, just that this paragraph alone is solid enough as a separate reason.]

4. Hobie’s mannerisms.

Note, I haven’t seen the movie, but I have seen many clips. From those clips, he’s definitely a teenager at least, it made me feel like Hobie was 16 or 17 years old. I’ve asked two of my brothers; they said that he definitely was their age [both being 17.]

“my two cents on the age debate is like. hobie doesn’t have the vibes of an adult even if his age is up to “interpretation”. like i’m eighteen and bro has definitely gotta be younger than that. he makes my “stupid younger sibling” sense go haywire." - ghostspider-isms

5. If you look up “how old is hobie brown”

You will already see many people speculating that Hobie is likely to be around the same age range as Miles and Gwen [if not a bit older.]

Again, Hobie is already 16-17 years old in the comics. 

“in the spiderverse, we have seen that it is common for most spiders (gwen and miles specifically) to get bitten around 14. hobie states he’s been spider-man for three years, meaning he’s most likely 16-17." - artisan-is-bored

6. “Like if Hobie is really 19+ then why is it only a problem with Punkflower?? Wouldn’t the whole love triangle thing be a problem????" - saltylemonade13

Yes. It would be a SERIOUS problem. It also would make the other ships [Chaipunk, others with minors in them] very problematic and illegal ships. But Hobie isn't 18+.

7. Ageing down process happening to various characters in Spider Verse, and Hobie non affected?

If Gwen and the other spiders are aged down in Spiderverse, then it doesn’t make sense that Hobie was not aged down like the others.

8. Hobie literally hangs out around teenagers.

If an adult is constantly hanging out with other children, then that obviously would be the first problem. I wouldn’t really need to keep talking any more about this one. Because if a 19-20 year old was spending a majority of his time around young teenagers, ages ranging 15 through 17, and not really with anybody else his age or above, then yes, that’s already weird.

“it’s also implied that miles is jealous of gwen and hobie. why would the directors make a key plot point of the story be that hobie is a grown ass man hanging out with a bunch of teenagers? and that he might have a thing with one of them???" - artisan-is-bored

9. Genetics do not matter within age.

This is one of my most common quotes by now. Hobie is indeed very tall at almost 6 ft, yes. No, it does not mean that he is above 18+ years old. Hobie can be over 6 ft tall and still be 16-17 years old.

I have seen so many teenagers at drastically different heights, but still be the same age. Many of them being over 6 ft [180 cm], and still being in my age range, and having met a 5’10” 8th grader [aka 13 yrs old] years ago. Both of my previously-mentioned brothers are 6 ft and over 6 ft, yet they are only 17.

“people can look one age and be another." - artisan-is-bored

“hobie’s description as a character. hobie is a foul mouthed TEENAGER. that has been his description for the past five years." - artisan-is-bored

10. “how do i tell them Punkflower has been a thing since 2018 or 2019 and they have interacted in the comics (they are close in age)" - luvvnobo

11. “He has to be an adult, because he goes to pubs!!” Let’s be absolutely HONEST here.

“dude is BFF’s with the Riri of his universe, she can probably whip up a fake ID in no time and even if Riri isn’t in the Spiderverse, he still gets around and knows people. he’s definitely cool with someone who makes fake ID’s." - bellamer

What bellamer said. To add onto this, a pub is different from a BAR as well.

If you look up “what is a pub vs bar” your first result will be this.

To also add, all bars in England aren’t considered pubs.

“If you’re 16 or under, you may be able to go to a pub (or premises primarily used to sell alcohol) if you’re accompanied by an adult. However, this isn’t always the case. It can also depend on the specific conditions for that premises. It’s illegal to give alcohol to children under 5." From the official GOV of the UK website

But literally, let’s be honest here, Hobie would already know at least one person who will help him get in a pub, if he cannot do so himself. If Hobie is constantly going to pubs, then that does not mean he is getting drinks 24/7 when he is there, unless stated otherwise. Pubs focus on serving food and to give drinks [upon request] to go along with the meal.

Before 1995, children under the age of 14 were NOT allowed in pubs in England and Wales. And Hobie is definitely by no means 14. He is likely 16, or 17. He can already drink, with adult supervision, at 16 in pubs. But we know that Hobie is no law-abiding Spider-man.

12. “Hobie wouldn’t be able to own his own place!”

“it’s a key part of hobie’s comic backstory that he used to be homeless. once again, the breaking the law point still stands. wouldn’t be surprised if hobie bought an apartment with a fake ID, was squatting, or was staying in some sort equivalent of the community center that he used as his main group’s operation headquarters in the comics.” - artisan-is-bored

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I do not think that another director/anybody who worked on the movie will come out and say that Hobie is actually 18+ at this point. I CAN be wrong in the future, but right now, he is not, and there are my reasons for why I strongly agree with the idea of Hobie being a teenager.

ALTHOUGH, even IF a director comes out and says that ATSV!Hobie is actually 18+, obviously all of the ATSV!ships with him and the other minors should STOP RIGHT NOW. But as of now [06/13/23 (when I first wrote this)], and from what we already know, I do not see anything wrong with ATSV!Punkflower and my views.

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The racism revolving Punkflower is disgusting.

I’ve seen a lot of people bashing Punkflower when the whole misinfo-hobie-being-19/20-situation occurred, but ONLY with Punkflower [from what I’ve seen.] I didn’t see any of this happening to the other ships that Hobie is in / shipped with Gwen, and Pavitr.

I have not seen any, quite literally nobody, complaining about any other ship that isn’t Punkflower, and it’s insanely overwhelming and confusing?? People don’t complain when it comes to Hobie x Gwen, but if it’s with two queer black boys? Huge problem all of a sudden.

“Love how when it was Hobie and Gwen no one batted an eye but as soon as people started shipping two black males together all of a sudden everyone’s disgusted and outraged” - uglynavel

“none of y’all had a problem w gwen and hobie, but when hobie started getting shipped with miles and pav? y’all got pissed. get your racist and homophobic head out of your ass. even if hobie IS an adult in the movie, that still doesn’t mean that shipping him with miles in the comics suddenly isn’t valid. newsflash, gwen is MUCH OLDER than hobie in his universe.” - artisan-is-bored

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Other quotes, that I wanted to point out, but I didn’t sort them into a spot;

“There are a lot more weird problems in the ATSV fandom, yet people are worried about Flowerpunk and whether Hobie is of age, or not. Those problems are full on grown ass people sexualizing Miles, Gwen, and likely more. There’s already stuff about Peter B. and Miles ship, and THAT is an active problem on hand. More people need to worry about all of that instead of a guy who has an up-to-interpretation age (but is strongly, likely, a 16-17 year old if not an adult.)” - peachypea0ny

“I can’t even enjoy comic versions of punkflower without me being called a pedo or having multiple fucking comments telling me over and over that punkflower is a proship.” - uglynavel

“I’m sorry it’s just really not fucking fair what In THE ACTUAL MOVIE it can imply something between Gwen and Hobie but the SECOND people started shipping two black boys together then it became a huge fucking problem, here’s the thing if Hobie is actually older and they never say that in the movie but imply something to the audience that him and a sixteen year old girl could possibly have something between them THEN THATS GROSS I DONT CARE HOW GOOD THE MOVIE IS! But Hobie is always, in other crossovers and his comics he is around 16, he has met Miles before in canon the ship’s not new, it was just small.” - crownecromancer (Edited to make sense, by me, godunforgiving.)

“punkflower is originally a comic ship, its been around for ages before atsv, its normal for shippers to crossover into different areas where the same characters are. he doesnt have an age on his wiki and why would he be said to have a love triangle with gwen if he WAS 19/20, idk why ppl have such a problem with punkflower but not with hobie and gwen??” - raspberryjars

“this is what happens when you believe in misinformation on the internet. no, there is no age gap, because hobie does not even have a canon age. if you watch the interview, instead of 10 seconds of it, he says it was early concepts of hobie. another director has confirmed his age is up to interpretation.. so. yall rlly need to stop with this, its weird asl. this whole thing was rooted in racism and homophobia, stop spreading misinformation I BEG.” - spideyzpoolsp

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Another disclaimer/notice;

PLEASE, PLEASE STOP BELIEVING IN EVERYTHING THAT YOU SEE!! EVEN IN TIKTOK OR TUMBLR!

IF it’s a piece of information that could be misinformation revolving around Punkflower or Hobie Brown, or anything, DO find out if it is real or fake asap!

I’m using a method that I remember from my elementary school that was constantly talked about [can’t believe I’d bring it up in a post about a ship years later], however it really does pay out and work anywhere else tbh. The “Stop, Think, Act method”.

STOP = Pause, if it distresses you; then take a breath to calm down, avoid doing anything on impulse aka don't do anything without thinking carefully beforehand.

THINK = Instead of the “what is the problem, what are the options, best path forward?” in the method itself, we will reuse this but change stuff up that can apply directly to this post. So after stopping and calming down, we will think carefully and review what we already KNOW. If it’s where the piece of information is easily seen/known as misinfo, then you are good. If the piece of misinfo is affecting something that we already know, then we move onto the next step.

ACT = “Proceed with the best option. Act carefully, and revise if needed.” The best option forward from thinking, is to do research, and make sure that it is actually real, and not misinformation with lies laced within. IF it is indeed misinformation, then it is the best to alert others, with proof.

If you are thinking “But why even mention that method??” The best example to use this method is with the age discourse blowup. A LOT of people believed in the misinformation very, very fast. What should’ve happened is that the mentioned method should’ve occurred early, to help prevent most of the freak out and its damages. But many users may not have thought of that, or even know the method, so it is okay. At least it calmed down a lot as of now, just that people are now likely afraid.

[Note; I am NOT blaming anybody!! I also freaked out a bit too, but I stuck to what I already knew, until I found more information. At first I heard “Hobie is 19-20!!!!” I figured that it must’ve been misinfo through what I already knew, because adding all of what I knew and this uproar of info, it just didn’t add up from what I alrd knew. but I still researched and did my homework!! Just that more people should naturally second-guess things that they are suspicious of and also be aware of that method and to apply it online, as it is already useful in real life!]

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Wrapping this post up, finally.

It’s sad to see different Punkflower fans fight each other. But it’s also outrageous and annoying to see the plat!Punkflower shippers, who see Miles and Hobie strictly in a brotherly relationship, to throw the term ‘!ncest / pseudo-!ncest’ against the romantical Punkflower shippers.. Like holy shit, that doesn’t make you any better. Can people, please, stop throwing serious accusations against other people so nonchalantly?

These accusations are SO serious and life changing, even if it's pointed at the wrong person. But people are just too ignorant to realize that unfortunately.

“You see him (Hobie) as 19/20 who’s a big brother to the other spiders? Cool! You see him as 16/17 rebel teen amazing!” - hamiltonforpowerpoint

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End post.

Reblogs, likes, and comments of your own opinions of this post are so welcome!

Again, ily all and take care of yourselves!!

and again, if anything you think that should be added onto the post, let me know! have a great day everybody

A friend asked what’s up with the discourse, asked me to make a post, after hours of research - I absolutely fucking DELIVERED. Love you guys.

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Edit #1 (06/15); had to reformat some things since it just looked broken to me! Using the editor on mobile is a PAIN.. 0/10.

Edit #2 (06/16); an edit update! I rewrote some things (to hope to make the post sound more better), added some stuff in the notes section and some throughout the post itself, updated the crediting so the quotes used are credited and linked back to hell!!!! bc crediting others is awesome! and the post is also def over 4.2k words lol

Edit #3 (06/17); An anon told me that I was “misusing” the 'proship' term, so I edited the post. Proshitters can go to hell for all I care. To clarify, I am talking about problematic shippers. Edit #4 (06/19); oh my god 600+ notes?? i hope all of you are having an EXCELLENT month okay.. i love you guys <3 /plat

Edit #5 (06/21); I am muting this! I saw some people reply to this post, but I just do not have the ability to respond to them (Selective mutism), I did write “drafts” to them, but I do not feel like polishing it and responding. Just busy with other things, honestly! I may end up responding some time later, so yeah. If you have any concerns or inquiries regarding this post, do not hesitate and feel free to DM me!

Every once a few weeks I may check up on this post as well, until I stop altogether.

[bibliophilea]

So... this isn't the first time I've seen people being incredibly mean to a whole section of the phandom. It's the first time in a while I've seen a post this bad in the main "danny phantom" tag, though. I have Thoughts™ that have been stewing for a while. Thoughts™ that shouldn't be put in the tags of someone else's post.

I'm not going to link anything. These are just my thoughts, raised to the forefront by recent posts in the main tag.

TLDR: I have two main Thoughts™:

No matter what you ship, I welcome you to this phandom. The folks who openly despise real people for shipping fictional things do not represent all of phandom. Y'all deserve better than being called shitty names. Your ships do not make you a bad person, and I personally welcome you.

To y'all who keep trying to draw a line in the sand to define who is "degenerate" or whose work is "degenerate": the moment you draw that line, you create a way for others to shove people behind that line. And the folks who usually get shoved behind that line and called "degenerate" are lgbtqia+ folks, and sa/csa survivors. It's happened before on LiveJournal and FFN, and it's happening now, irl, with book bannings across the USA (and especially in Florida). The only way to protect lgbtqia+ folks and sa/csa survivors from this abuse is to not draw a line in the sand at all. Don't call folks "degenerate" for any reason, unless you're ready to have that finger pointed back at you by a larger and more negative movement.

If you desire fuller context, it's below the cut.

First: no matter what you ship, I welcome you to this phandom.

The views of hatred and disgust that pop up in this phandom don't represent all of phandom. No fandom is perfect, and we'll always see some form of the "logic of disgust" from some folks in any fandom. But no matter what you ship, and whether or not I personally ship it, I welcome you. You will find no disgust from me as I am now.

If you dig backwards into my blog, you might find some anti sentiment. My introduction to fandom was first FFN, and then tumblr, back when I was more of a black-and-white thinker. I'm pretty sure I experienced some form of shock when I really started digging in to the Wild West that is fandom. I don't know if I ever expressed this shock online. But none of you deserve to be called "degenerates" over liking whatever fictional content you like. Y'all are a part of phandom, too, and any attempts to erase you or deride you are wrong.

We shouldn't be drawing lines in the sand and throwing people behind those lines. That's dangerous.

Second: to y'all who keep drawing lines in the sand, please consider the broader context around you.

The moment you draw a line in the sand to delineate between you and your group of people, and "them" and their group of "degenerates", people find ways to shove other folks, including you and your folks, behind that line. Historically, both in fandom and outside of fandom, the folks who get shoved ALWAYS include lgbtqia+ folks, and sa/csa survivors. We saw this with the purging of LiveJournal. We saw this with the multiple purges of FanFiction.Net. We haven't seen this with ao3, as far as I know; but their stance seems to be very anti-censorship for fandom-historical reasons.

Outside of fandom, we are seeing this now. I'm doing my senior capstone project on book bans. According to PEN America's data, over the past school year alone, 154 counties in 34 states have banned 1557 books 3362 times overall. Over 40% of those bans come from Florida counties. And much of the "reasoning" behind these bans is the same logic of disgust that fandom applies to "problematic ships": They call it pornographic and pedophilia. They call it harmful and age-inappropriate. They largely target books about lgbtqia+ people and people of color. And this year, they've also targeted "books on physical abuse, health and well-being, and themes of grief and death" - expanding their censorship to "protect the children".

Censorship doesn't protect anyone. Instead, it prevents people from holding genuine conversations with real people about the censored material.

And if you're not ready to have that conversation, that's fine! You do you! But don't create an environment where other people can't have that conversation. That only breeds the sort of black-and-white thinking that leads to 1406 book bannings in the state of Florida.

This is just speculation on my part: but I reckon every single person who supports those bans would love to ban the same content you want censored. And they'd call for you and the content you love to be lumped in with them.

We all deserve better than that. So please stop drawing lines in the sand.

[laura1633]

Oh wow i have a serious problem i just went over what i wrote to you and i probably should have stopped at the first two sentences but it gets me upset the abuse lando faces i dont even like the guy i perfer oscar, max, charles and carlos but even i know that sending death threats to someone is not okay, and it upsets me that people almost always take his words out of context like when did lando say he actually had a chance at winning the wdc this year? I've seen people bash on him for the latest race where max raced incredibly, but what they dont seem to understand is that the race's terrible race conditions could have actually seriously injured him, we all seem to forget that the guy is younger then max, less experienced, and has huge problems with self-worth that actively seem to affect the way he race's. the fact that max won in the rust bucket that barely seemed to work in favor of the guy is incredable, but bashing on another driver for seemingly not wanting to take a chance with the awfull race conditions (*please note that this is what it looked like to me on what lando was doing that race where he did make mistakes but the weather wasnt helping ether* also note that that franco, oliver and others commented ether on the weather being dangerous, their cars 'Presumably the cars not agreeing with the weather ether', or the fact they couldnt see for shit and out right stated that someone should have a talk with the fia *i couldnt watch the whole race but ive seen snippets of driver radio's and the like, so i cant say with 100% certainty that this is correct*)

So yeah i think that, if i as someone who doesnt like lando, its really concerning what some people say about the guy and as a side note none of the other drivers seem to notice the hate from what ive seen but this last part might just be me. What are your thoughts on the hate lando's been getting seeming to increase anytime he seems to actually want to enjoy racing with the other more popular (equally popular?) Drivers?

🍑anon

Hi anon, 

That’s okay, I will respond to this ask rather than the previous one (but just for context for anyone else the previous ask was about fan fiction so wan’t anything mean). This ended up being a really lengthy answer because I have lots of thoughts!!! 

I’ll put the answer under the cut and tag as anti Lando despite this really just being my opinion and I personally don’t think I am being particularly harsh here but maybe people will disagree.

Firstly hopefully to most people it goes without saying that sending death threats is not okay, that goes for any of the drivers (and various other individuals that I have seen targeted over the past few years). I also have never understood people specifically going to an individual’s social media page just to spout negativity or abuse at them, if you don’t like someone you don’t need to follow them. 

However, I am surprised that people seem to be shocked that Lando is receiving hate online as this is absolutely nothing new and, if I am being honest, I have seen worse (not that this is a competition!).

I will speak from the perspective of being a Max supporter and say that the abuse he has received both online and at track has been appalling over the years. After Silverstone 2021 there were plenty of comments from people saying he ‘deserved’ such an awful crash or that they wished it had been worse. Even this year there were memes going around saying that maybe we needed a repeat of Silverstone 21 (a meme liked by Lando’s dad no less, not that I think we should be blaming children for their parent’s actions!). Not only that but there is rarely a week that goes by that I don’t see jokes online about how Jos is the only one that ‘can beat Max’ or people posting memes about Max being left at a gas station when he does badly. Max needed a bodyguard in Mexico last year because there were concerns over death threats, he’s been booed up on the podium, had people chanting cheat at him in the fan zone, every comment section on his social media includes comments telling him he is a cheat or that his achievements mean nothing. The British media are like vultures any time there is even a hint of controversy. I don’t know why everyone is suddenly up in arms about Lando receiving hate, perhaps its a case of only caring when it happens to ‘their’ driver. 

It doesn’t just happen to Max either. I don’t follow Lewis on social media but I still know the type or racist abuse he has faced over the years. Other drivers also receive abuse - Lance for example has vile things said about him, Nicholas Latifi was sent death threats after 2021. I am sure most if not every driver has experienced some level of hate. Social media can be extremely toxic. 

Do I think any of the drivers should have to deal with such toxicity? No, but Lando is nowhere near the only one to receive hate and I don’t think someone like Max who appears ‘strong’ should have to put up with things because people get the impression it doesn’t bother him.

Whether the other drivers notice, well probably they do but its not happening just to Lando. Did Lando realise how much toxicity was being thrown at Max after Austria or Mexico? Did he try and calm things with the media or did he double down and make things worse for Max? 

As for taking Lando’s words out of context. That definitely happens from time to time, the same as with any driver. Media goes for clickbait headlines and run with them. The problem is that Lando has also said things that haven’t been taken out of context and that people still find distasteful. The comments about it not being talent and being luck did not come across well. I was tempted to give him the benefit on that one and assume he was referring to himself and saying it was not him being untalented but unlucky but then he doubled down by saying nobody deserved to win the race more than George - how can I take that any other way other than the fact he was saying Max didn’t ‘deserve’ to win the race. 

As for Lando saying he thought he could win the WDC, if he didn’t think he could win it this year then to me that would be more of a concern. He has a championship winning car and has done for most the season, if he can’t win it now then when?! He should have been confident that he could win or at least put up a good fight. I would have had no problem with him openly saying he is going for the championship. Look at Charles who is not afraid to say that whilst it is still possible he is still fighting. I think part of the problem here lies with Mclaren because they should have been fully backing Lando and hyping him up but seemed to flip flop back and forth about whether they thought he was truly in the fight. It’s hardly going to give Lando confidence when his team don’t seem to be backing him as strongly as they could be. 

As for Brazil, Lando didn’t have a great race. George got past him at the start. He made too many errors. Charles finished in front of him despite starting behind him. Max, Esteban and Pierre took a risk staying out on those worn inters, they gambled on the fact the race would be red flagged but also on their abilities and confidence to keep the car on track under those conditions. They all did extremely well and deserved their podium spots. The most important thing though is that all the drivers came away without serious injuries because over the course of that weekend there were numerous occasions where entertainment was put over safety. If a driver felt they had to pit for safety reasons then I am glad they took that step.

Lando is younger than Max but I don’t think we need to baby him in terms of his racing or in terms of giving him a free pass with what he says in the media. He is 24 years old, the same age Max was when Max won his first championship under very intense pressure. 

I think you are correct about confidence or self worth affecting him. Whilst I wouldn't like to comment to much on his mentality, to me (and I don’t tend to watch too many of his interviews so I could be wrong) he seems to flop back and forth between being overly critical of himself and then also not taking accountability and saying someone else just had the fastest car or were lucky. I think it would be really good for him to be able to look as objectively as possible about where he has actually made mistakes and can improve but also being able to pick out the things he has done well and be proud of those things. 

Overall I don’t think any drivers should have to put up with the amount of hate that they have to put up with but Lando is not the only one to receive hate and, dare I say it, I don’t even think it has been as vicious as some of the things I have seen over the years. Social media is toxic and people should be more mindful and realise these are real people - all of them!! 

Also, once again lets be thankful that nobody was seriously hurt over the weekend and lets hope the Fia take steps to act more swiftly when safety cars and red flags are needed and that they put safety above other concerns.

[pathfinderyderss]

Heads up! The user barbex is a proshipper (supports romanticizing abuse in fiction).

Hi! So, I apologize for my delay in responding to your message - I have had a lot of thoughts and wanted to make sure l was expressing them in the best way possible.

I want to be honest, when I first read your message, I didn’t know what pro-shipping was, but I do know @barbex --I've been following her for the better part of a decade and she is an excellent author and l enjoy her views on the Dragon Age lore (and her views on Anders). I've also done more than a few of the prompt months that she's put together.

With all of that said, I wanted to better understand your viewpoint and see what it is that is defined as part of your block list. So, I hopped on your blog! I found your blocklist and the items you've listed as egregious enough to report users and as a former Literature Major, it saddened me to see such Puritanical and Orwellian views being broadcast with such vitriol.

The first thing I want to address is that in my fifteen plus years in fandom I have always subscribed to the “Don’t Like, Don’t Read" mentality. I am unafraid to block people on this website for a single take I don't agree with, and with that I am a FIRM supporter of accurate community labels as there are many things that I myself do not enjoy or want to read - so my blocked tags are plentiful and the blogs I block are many and that curated experience is why I do not get involved in any sort of fandom drama. 

I implore you to do the same. Fandom can be such a wonderful, constructive experience when you surround yourself with like-minded individuals. A dear friend of mine reminded me of the phrase, ”No Good Fandom, Only Good Friends” and nothing could be more accurate. Your tiny corner of the Fandom is an amazing way to flourish socially and mentally; however when your energy instead is spent on searching for others with ideological differences the experience instead becomes a witch hunt full of dog piling and negativity.

Now, on your blog, I noticed that you bemoan that you are unable to have a conversation about Fandom/Purity Culture/Fanfiction and I feel like this is an important topic to discuss so l am going to indulge in this against my better judgement, and at the end if you don't like what I've said, l implore you to block me as well.

My primary issue with your block list is that it derives from anti-intellectualism and a puritanical view of fandom. Which, if that is how you want to experience fandom, that's fine, but publicizing it is beyond ridiculous and leads back to my earlier point about witch hunts and dog piling.

Based on your list, your primary concerns in your block list stem from the following topics: rape, incest, pedophilia- including predatory age gaps and abuse. And I wonder; do you devalue fiction in the same way?

The first thing on your list that caught my attention was your adamant disapproval of the Thanatos/Zagreus ship in Hades. Is this just a general distaste for all Greek/Roman mythology as all of it could meet your block list above? Does Disney's Hercules get a pass due to the inaccuracies in the retelling — does the Hera/Zeus relationship get a pass because it isn't explicitly mentioned? And does it matter that it is a more inaccurate retelling of the myth?

In that same vein; are stories like Jane Eyre (which contains both a predatory age gap and a horrific example of a mentally ill character) or Wuthering Heights (which contains incest and abuse) not worth telling to a modern audience because they show these things? Are we forgoing media literacy and critical thinking now because these things glorify the worst parts of humanity?

And regardless of if it is a piece of classic literature or a piece of modern fanfiction making the decision for others that they cannot read these things due to them being "bad” or "wrong" or "shameful" is no different than banning books. And you devalue the readership of these pieces of literature by saying that they are unable to critically think for themselves and find the value of an individual piece of fiction.

I emphasize again, YOU as an individual do not have to view or interact with this material if it makes you uncomfortable, but I beg you not to police others in an Orwellian fashion over the media they choose to produce or view. Use the block button and blacklist tags you don't like or make you uncomfortable - that is what they are there for. Instead, talk to people who share your views but do not turn this into a witch hunt or an NC-17 purge that we've seen so damaging to our communities in the past.

All of this is to say; find joy Fandom — whatever that may mean for you and let others do the same. 

I hope this was informative.

- Ryder

[kiwisandpearls]

Kindly take your last post out of the Zutara tag.

People are allowed to criticize Aang. People are allowed to point out the failings of the writing behind his character. He's fictional. His feelings won't be hurt. It shouldn't matter that people hate him.

(Some people who dislike or criticize him aren't even Zutara shippers. And those that are have said that their dislike of Aang has nothing to do with liking Zutara)

What's not okay is attacking Zutara shippers who are real people over their opinions on a FICTIONAL character.

The problem with posts like yours is that they're so hypocritical. You always make out Zutara shippers to be the problem. Do you know what Kataang fans have done? They've doxxed people, sent death threats. They had a rape Discord a few years ago. They've continuously harassed DANTE BOSCO, calling him a pedo because he likes Zutara. They literally recently harassed an NATLA writer on Twitter because she likes Zutara.

Stop calling out Zutara shippers for not liking a fictional character when Kataang shippers have some real damage to real people.

…I—

I literally did not put my post in the zutara tag. I put them in the ‘zutara fans critical’ and ‘zutara stans critical’ tags because 1. I didn’t want to put them in the anti zutara tag because it wasn’t meant to be an anti zutara post and 2. I obviously did not want to put the post critical about zutara shippers in the general zutara tag. I’m guessing you most likely just looked up zutara because like again, you can check yourself, I did not use the general ‘zutara’ tag.

also I never said people weren’t allowed to criticize aang. My point was actually that you don’t have to vilify aang to excuse zutara and/or excuse your dislike of aang. Criticizing aang isn’t “aang forced katara to be with him and would be a horrible boyfriend/husband to her” criticizing aang is “aang was in the wrong for how he talked to katara after the ember islands play”.

“What's not okay is attacking Zutara shippers who are real people over their opinions on a FICTIONAL character.”

i’m not???? Where do you see me attacking zutara shippers, genuinely point it out to me because if I was being hostile to them that wasn’t my intention.

I would’ve just ignored and maybe deleted this ask if I weren’t completely baffled by it. How is me making this one post about how certain zutara shippers should just admit they have a negative opinion of aang and much prefer zutara to kataang instead of coming up batshit reasons to claim aang is a horrible person is me somehow attacking zutara shippers for…having negative opinion on aang, and turning a blind eye to kataang shippers that are just as if not worse?

trust me, I think kataang shippers who make up reasons to explain why zuko would also be terrible for katara is just as annoying as zutara shippers who make up reasons to explain why aang would be terrible for katara. And I don’t think kataang shippers, or any shippers, doxxing and harassing zutara and other shippers is ok in anyway. I just didn’t mention it because I kinda thought it would be obvious that kataang shippers that also harass people are just as bad as zutara shippers that harass people. Maybe that’s asking a little too much of the internet but idk.

Also, I didn’t know kataang shippers were harassing Dante Basco. I didn’t even know he was a zutara shipper, I’m not that deep in the fandom. I’m not even that much in it at all lol. So even if I were to talk about kataang shippers what did you want me to do about it? Telepathically figure out kataang shippers have been harassing him lol? Not saying that it’s ok nor surprising, I just straight up didn’t know.

[crimsoncold]

Polls, Plans for a Future ASOIAF art series, and some Criticism of Antis and thoughts General Fandom etiquette ...

First of all thank you to anyone who participated in my poll on which pair of House Stark characters have the most underrated/underappreciated similarities or paralells (and for so many of you for taking the poll in the spirit it was intended and staying respectful in your tags- I always worry about that as part of the asoiaf/got fandom, particularly being a Sansa-stan and Jonsa shipper in general)

I was using this poll as a bit of research/inspiration for a future art series I wanted to do (there are just so many possible paralells/comparisons that I find intriguing or emotionally compelling, but i can only devote so much time to one specific art piece/series and was really struggling to narrow down the specific character pairs I wanted to focus on- hence the poll I made!)

So after getting an idea about which parallels resonate with people -and feel are underrepresented or unappreciated by fandom- and holding to the idea that if you want to see something specific or rare discussed or done in fandom/fanfiction/or fanart sometimes you just have to do it yourself ... I've checked the results and have decided I'm eventually going to do a cross-generation art series exploring certain characters' narrative parallels/similarities to eachother as well as a tribute to any canon relationship they have to one another...

It will include a Sansa & Ned piece, a Robb & Lyanna one, and lastly an Arya & Catelyn one.

Side note I'm also thinking of doing a separate Jonsa art piece that focuses a bit on the many ways their plotlines/arcs/dreams mirror one another.

(It's all going to take awhile- a few months probably but I'm very excited and I've already started brain storming ideas)

Ok now that I've expressed my appreciation and shared the more positive outcome from this poll now I want to take a moment to vent a bit about some of the negative backlash, address my general stance on antis, and give a little reminder about general fandom etiquette...

(I've tagged this accordingly so I'm unsure that any of the people this is directed at/could benefit from reading this will ever encounter it... but still I think its important to put it out there- even if only because it allows me to process my own thoughts and feelings on the matter)

(This may at times come across slightly bitchy- I'm alright with that but I decided I'd preface this by emphasizing... This is intended as a criticism of toxic stans... it is not the condemning of a specific character/certain character parallels, and it is not criticism of people who are simply fans of said character in general... everyone understand that? Good lets move on)

So I'm sort of feeling darkly amused about how (with I think a single nice exception?) the comments made on this poll (even multiple in a row from one user) were people wanting to complain that I chose to excluded some pair/parallel that they prefer ....

Instead of taking... what 10 seconds?... to read my explanation around why certain pairs were excluded from the poll- which would have apparently saved them a lot of grief...

(I.e. its not that the parallels between these pairs aren't present OR that I don't think they are meaningful... it's simply that I feel those sets of characters are very high profile and are frequently discussed in terms of their parallels by a significant portion of fandom and thus should NOT be included in a poll meant to consider underappreciated Stark character parallels)

...And then say deciding to either take this poll in the spirit it was intended (once again... to consider what is the most underrated/underappreciated stark paralells? NOT to focus on or reiterate some of the most talked about ones in all of asoiaf fandom?) or choosing to simply scroll past if they weren't interested in the options/design of the poll..

They instead chose to have a hissy fit in the comments about how offended they were that Lyanna was listed as having parallels with any Stark kid other than Arya (not just Sansa- which unfortunately is not exactly an unexpected response but apparently the idea of Robb + Lyanna having paralells was also deeply offensive. Who knew? I would have expected all the house stark boys were completely immune to the unecessary hate/criticism/dismissal that so much of fandom and many arya stans gleefully direct towards Sansa)

Or took the time to explicitly complain that I didn't include Arya being compared to.... whoever? Ned and Jon I think, maybe others? I've forgotten their explicit instructions on all their arya stan approved comparisons. Because isn't it sooo biased of me not to include these pairs because clearly Arya is the only character who can rightfully be compared to Lyanna or Ned... even in a post explicitly about parallels underrated by fandom!!! These commonly discussed parallels absolutely NEED to be an option even then... and if it isn't it has to be because the person who made it is prejudiced and biased-not because the pair/character parallels dont actually fit the poll criteria.

Really this just further justifies my disappointment in certain types of stans and makes me feel I wasn't being pessimistic or jumping at shadows when I listed my second reason for avoiding including those as pairs in this poll (i.e. wanting to avoid devoting space to pairs/paralells that bring out the worst in certain toxic stans- i just dont need to deal with that and neither does anyone else)

...when I say that certain character parallels bring up weird defensiveness/unpleasantness/stubborness in fans .. well these people choose to respond to such a statement by just literally proving my point.

If you dont like this poll instead of leaving comments to complain about it and its creator maybe go make your own Arya centric one?... would that not be a better use of your time? Or are you so lacking in creativity/the ability to think critically and express yourself persuasively that you can only ever complain about the content other's make and never actually be a productive or positive member of fandom through creating your own content?

All your actions do is make it less enjoyable to read or discuss said popular character or character parallels... you actively drive people away from the fandom discussion around your favorite characters/character parallels... which is an interesting choice to say the least.

I would love to plan out fanart that explores both the major and subtler ways the stark sisters echo both of their parents and even each other... but I am hesitant... Arya stans like these totally just reinforce both my concern that such content would not generally find acceptance/appreciation and my certainty that I would not even simply be peacefully left alone to explore or share these ideas without toxic stans invading my blog to bitch to me about... i don't know? How I'm awful for choosing to taint asoiaf things that sacredly belong only to Arya by including/linking them to evil incarnate Sansa or fandom nobody Robb? That I'd dare malign someone as precious as Arya by having the audacity to think or say that she has similarities to the useless female characters Sansa or Catelyn?

I'm a fan of all the stark kids (including Arya- i love the Stark sisters and wish more fandom discussion around their relationship was based in empathy and nuanced consideration rather than being mostly vitriolic and obviously biased) but stans like this make me not want to branch out beyond the more Sansa/Jonsa centric circles or content... because at least with this part of fandom I encounter people used to seeing/experiencing rudeness or outright harassment and who are not interested in behaving that way themselves (notice people weren't up in arms and taking to the comments in outrage about me choosing to not include and list Sansa and Catelyn parallels ... almost as if Sansa-stans don't harass or criticize people in their own posts... unlike many others I could list)

(including me!!!! I tag my content/art as in depth as possible not just to make it easy to find but also as a curtesy to be easy to filter or block for those who aren't interested in certain fandoms/ships/or even my art and content in general

I wish these people would remember that fandom is a hobby and we do this because we enjoy it... curate your fandom experience, scroll past things that don't interest you/filter any tags you want/block content or blogs that you don't like or don't care to see.

I am doing my part!

I am not willfully invading/infecting your space in fandom with my terrible interest in the starks/sansa/jonsa... use your damn filters and/or block my blog ... don't leave nasty comments for me or the other people to see)

Seriously!!!! Don't waste your energy on negativity, or your time on being rude or purposefully invading specific fandom spaces just to criticize and argue with people in fandom who you disagree with

... because I'm not going to engage with you or argue with you or in any way validate/reinforce your shitty behaviour, I'm not going to sink to your level by invading your blog or your posts to complain about you or your interests... I'm going to block you wearing a smile (just one less unpleasant person to run into in this fandom)

and lastly I'm just going to continue to post/enjoy all the characters/topics/ships that you hate.

and if I complain about what you've done or use it to emphasize my stance on specific antis or fandom conduct in general it will be only ever be in my own posts on my own blog- without explicitly identifying you/referencing your blog/or directing actual harassment or negativity towards you ... (I'm not going to make you feel justified in your negative opinions about/harassment of sansa-stans, jonsa fans, or just literally anyone in fandom who you disagree with... I'm not going to give you evidence/ammunition to slander or smear segments of fandom you consider undesirable... I'm just not going to lower myself the way you do... i have more respectful for myself and for other people in fandom... I'm content to let you look like the asshole and never have to think about you again)

if you failed to develope the ability to give enough of a shit about other people to be respectful in fandom spaces, filter and block accordingly, or at least be civil in your interactions please have enough respect for your own free time and at least care enough about your own emotional well-being and happiness to start acting this way ... Swear to god this will make things more enjoyable not just for others but for yourself as well

Now I'm going to go back to reblogging/making fan art of things I like... because it makes me happy and I don't wish to invest anymore time on negative things or negative people.

- Crimson Cold

[rise-my-angel]

Hi, I hope this isn’t a weird thing to say but as a Jonsa shipper, I really appreciate your criticism of Jonsa. I obviously don’t agree with those particular takes but it’s really refreshing to see someone with genuine good faith takes on why you don’t like the ship. Some of your anti-Jonsa takes actually gave me a lot of food for thought. So I just wanted to say thank you.

My goal was never to change anyone's minds who ships it, or really even tell them to consider another point of view. It mostly started with me making comments how I dislike it, when I started to get a lot of push back for it, when back then my opinion was simply "I don't ship that, the incest makes me uncomfortable."

So I ended up having to dig deeper to explain more of why, and that gave me more perspective on why i dislike it even more and I simply found the desire to express that. I think everyone has valid reasons for disliking ships and the right to explain why, but I also think everyone has the right to ship whatever they want for whatever reasons.

Personally disagreeing with why or why not we agree or don't agree on a ship is totally fine, because for everything I've said, I've never seen you act aggressive or unreasonable about those different opinions. We never went to the other trying to argue why you're or I am wrong, because at the end of the day, we just see it differently and we don't feel the need to argue about it, and thats what I enjoy.

I'm fine with people shipping it and I've heard people out for why they ship things I dislike as they've heard me out. I only point out where and why I disagree but I always say I get where they're coming from.

My issue was always specific parts of those shippers who insist it is canon and I am in the wrong for thinking otherwise, or I am blind and stupid or willingly ignoring things, when I simply don't see what they see. Which like, you heard my points out, and you don't see what I see, but that's okay. I've always made those posts targeted towards those people who come into my inbox on anon and get very rude and aggressive towards me about my posts, when I do tag them as anti posts, because I think if seeing those posts is that upseeting, I wouldn't want someone to read them. But they do, and they still come to me very angry about my own views and I just don't get it.

There's tons of ships in this series I dislike, but I get where people who do ship it are coming from. But, I think it's healthy to express why we dislike something as much as it is to express why we do like it. It's just a balance, and I've never had any issues with you being a jonsa shipper.

It's the mentality of, they disagree with me, and so they feel the need to come to me personally and argue with me that I'm wrong, when really, I make posts about why I dislike ships like jonsa, because I know other people who feel that way but don't want to make those posts, because it can attract negative attention. So I'm fine with making the posts, because I see the people who agree but maybe don't want to say it. It's why I don't go onto jonsa posts and disagree, because clearly those posts aren't made for me, so I have no reason to go to them with my complaints.

I like the idea of we all just make out own posts disagreeing, without personally attacking the other or going to their inbox on anon to argue when normally, none of us want to come here and argue.

Though, I'm glad you don't totally hate me for my posts because I do thoroughly enjoy your blog, and sometimes jonsas's can conflict my dislike for the ship, as me hating Sansa, and I'm always sitting here like "wait no", considering how often I can rewatch the early seasons and how much I love almost all of Sansa's Kings Landing scenes. Sometimes I also get called a jonerys shipper which is even worse, considering I talk down about that 90% more then jonsa.

Basically, its totally not weird you saying this, I'm just glad my posts haven't put you off completely, because I enjoy you and your posts quite a lot. I never aim to try and drive people away from my stuff, I just know sometimes I am more vocal about my dislikes then others, because I know the topics some people are a bit too nervous to post about, usually surrounding popular ships.

I don't want to attack the shippers personally, im mostly trying to just echo opinions I see other people too nervous to post, knowing the backlash can sometimes be a lot to handle. So, hopefully you havent felt that way, because personal attacks isnt my actual goal.

Sometimes I just sound that way, because despite being formal in my posts, I can also sound eccentric and inflammatory in the tags when that is usually just for exaggerated joking sake to offset the essay I usually just wrote.

[gyaruogutz]

👀 i'd be curious... (about your last post)

You’re in luck , I love talking about myself when asked ~

Information is under the cut , mostly for my personal preference ! CW for , well , transharmful things !! I don’t really go into detail until the very end , but still . I’m trigger-tagging this as a vent just in case.

It will probably be a lot lmao !! Be careful what you wish for Anon !!

A lot of my harmful thoughts come from rage . And that sounds very stereotypical , right ? Like “ oh, of course the transharmful person has homocidal thoughts , that’s a given . “ You’re right of course ! But it’s not just homocidal thoughts I get .

I get paraphiliac thoughts and urges as well when I’m in a heightened state of emotion , whether it be a positive OR negative feeling that I’m experiencing . & I’ve gotten homocidal thoughts from excitement or joy before . With heightened emotions these days comes heightened impulse .

I’m very good in retrospect with controlling these impulses , for the saftey of me and those around me . I’ve done nothing that warrants suspicion from those who trust me IRL , and nothing to tip off any mental health professionals , much less anything authorities would be concerned about.

I experience these thoughts near-constantly . I’m either wishing to be violent , aggressive & homocidal , or I’m fantasizing , usually sexually , ( but not always , to be fair ) about one of my paraphilias . When I’m not in these states of mind I’m almost purposefully distracting myself with special interests or hyperfixations . And mind you this is while I’m ON my medications , haha !! Though I doubt I’d be at risk of offending for either side when I’m not , my medication moreso keeps anxious paranoia and depression away .

These thoughts at this consistently don’t just come out of nowhere . To start off with , I’m also cis-traumatized , and had a C-PTSD diagnosis at the chrono age of 14 ( though apparently it’s not a diagnosis anymore ? correct me if I’m wrong ). My specialized therapist and I have determined I have genuine plurality that is either mostly or completely traumagenic , most likely P-DID or DID . I also have reason to be weary of having suffered R4MC04 ( censoring in case of antis jumping my post ) abuse as a child , due to knowledge of some of my alters I have experience with , and how I react subconsciously to certain things .

However , I have also most likely gained these thoughts from doing harmful things in my adolescence , usually impulsively and on purpose.

Disclaimer , chrono-minors ; I cannot and will not recommend you do ANY of these things listed . I’m not your parent and I can’t stop you , I understand that , but I feel obligated to put this warning here . Additionally I’m not providing details on how I did these things myself , and I will not do so if asked .

For one , as a young teen I would purposefully seek out sexual contact with much older men for my own sexual and emotional amusement . This is where I developed a lot of my sexual tastes from , honestly . I never felt bad for doing these things , only shame for getting caught by then-friends who were appalled.

I would also frequently ( with their consent ) use friends in my group for that same gratification . I lost my virginity to a friend I met in my first year of public middle school , years later in our friendship , for example .

I was also ( and still am , honestly ), a stalker of those who gave me enough attention to be interested , whether online or in person . I was also obsessive , checking messages and getting intense emotions when I saw my various objects of affection over the years do something I didn’t approve of .

There were also some things in younger childhood ,

— I ( unintentionally ) scared the absolute shit out of most boys in the two grades below be because I was notorious for harassing them for my amusement as a kid . ( my autistic ass simply thought that’s how people played at the time , but I thought it was also REALLY funny )

— for some odd reason , in my small impoverished Catholic elementary school , my year consistently had the most traumatized kids out of all of them . I was faced with sexual assault stories , parental death stories , physical abuse stories and more by my close friends all before I was ten, and besides the parental death ( which was a singular case ), all of that was normalized and unfortunately almost romanticized by the girls in my grade .

I specifically remember a friend of mine getting assaulted by a college boy when we were in third grade , and recall three girls asking her excitedly about the experience . ( STATING THIS IS NOT TO ROMANTICIZE IT, this is a genuine example of how serious violence was romanticized in my childhood. )

— I can name at least one teacher I know in middle school that clearly had eyes for me sexually . Nothing ever happened with him in my active memory , but I knew , and I think he knew I knew , and I definitely used it to my advantage . There was also one in high school , who , again nothing in my active memory happened with him , but I definitely knew and again used it to play him like a fiddle .

Until I was TOLD that these things were wrong , I wasn’t aware . I saw it as normal , fun , and exciting .

So those are most of my thoughts on the subject . Not sure if I’m cis-harmful or trans-harmful really .

[elephant-in-the-pride-parade]

Thank you for your thorough reply. I mostly sent that message since I personally can see how people would be quick to call the premise of that fic problematic with regards to race. Making an Indigenous man biologically driven to be submissive towards a white woman has negative associations with “taming the savage” type tropes (1/2)

Thanks for reaching out again and meeting me where I am at on this. D/s and race do need to be tackled sensitively, I agree.

In this case from reading the fic I thought that this treatment of the men in submissive position by this particular writer was done as well as one could. The sub-assignment was equally distributed among almost all the main men on the cast (first point) so did not appear linked to race in particular. Chakotays submissiveness was also not tied to his race in text in any way (second point). The fic also gave him agency over whether to pursue a sexually submissive relationship (third point). Regarding Belanna, the fic put all the main women, not just B, in the Dom position (fourth point).

In terms of advice I've followed as a white writer and a beta on how to handle race in fics, especially in smut fics, I always hear two pieces of advice as best practices - (1) wherever possible include characters performing the kink that are white and nonwhite and give them equal treatment, and (2) avoid sexualizing/exotifying/fetishizing racial characteristics. From the three chapters that did get posted, the author was following that advice in terms of writing her D/s world. I cant judge the actual smut scenes of course, these werent ever posted, but in terms of establishing how this fictional sexual mechanic works the author seemed to be doing the best they could to portray this equally in white and non-white characters, and was not fetishizing race (again at least that I noticed).

The tags on this fic were extremely comprehensive in terms of what kinks would be tackled. this is usually a good indicator for me that this is going to be handled sensitively on the kink front. There are not enough kink fics written by people who actually do their research so I was looking forward to seeing if that would pan out in the writing itself.

Belanna is tricky because as you pointed out in your 2nd message, the angry latina point is very valid. Her klingon temper is also referenced a lot in canon and is used as a clumsy method of showing her grappling with her dual-identities and her dealing with anti-klingon sentiments. And so I think it is a struggle for writers to figure out how to write her in character in that regard without being insensitive as canon is bad at it to start. It is a valid criticism to raise but its also helpful to be able to point to some fic or other resource that either does handle the temper well or explains how not to handle it.

Given that Belanna didnt actually appear in person in the three chapters posted, I really dont have a basis for how the author would have handled her character. And I wont get to find out if she would have been sensitive about it now.

All that to say what I took issue with in terms of the negative comments the author described receiving wasnt that she had been accused of racism. it is that she'd been harassed in multiple ways, on multiple fics, even told to kys over a made up sexual mechanic and that this had hurt her enough to just... stop. To stop writing and sharing her kink. to stop writing these characters. And thats... awful. Blocking and Muting or clicking the back button were all choices this anon had. Sharing specific instances where the D/s was racially insensitive was also a choice they had. Instead it sounds like they went on anon, made extremely general accusations about racism, homophobia, and not understanding the characters, and then sent these to a writer they dont know, who doesnt know them, and told that writer the most awful hurtful think you could say. For what purpose? It just reeks of bad actor behavior.

[kl125]

C, D, and T!! I want to know your thoughts on those

From this post.

Okay, I'm going to post this with a big, fat disclaimer.

I am not an anti of any ship. If it makes you happy, then go for it. I have my own opinions about ships, and you have yours, and that's how life works. Feel free to disagree on any of these, as that's the beauty of fandom! I debated whether or not I should include other media, or just stick to Stranger Things, so I ended up with a mix of both. Usually, I avoid negative discourse as much as possible, but please allow me this one moment of indulgence.

I won’t be tagging the ships I talk about (except for the two I mention in a positive light), but I won’t be censoring the names in the text. Do with that what you will.

C - A ship you have never liked and probably never will.

Zutara. Sorry, not sorry on this one. I never quite saw the vision with it. I started watching the show literally the day it premiered, and from the first episode, I loved the dynamic between Katara and Aang. Katara always saw Zuko as the personification of everything she hated (because her mom was killed by the Fire Nation). She didn’t let go of that until she straight up found the dude who killed her mom, and by then, they worked much better as a friendship in my opinion.

As for Stranger Things, I never liked Byler. I won’t go into too much detail here. I do not think their personalities work well in a relationship. Mike is very future focused, while Will focuses on the past. Whenever they’ve fought, they’ve been emotional and impulsive, saying things they know will hurt the other person. In my opinion, it’s not a very solid foundation for a relationship.

D - A pairing you wish you liked but just can't.

Steddie, but hear me out. This is much more of a me thing. It’s because Eddie is canonically dead, so that immediately puts me off of a ship. It’s always been that way with any fandom I’m in. I feel the same way about Harringrove and Hellcheer, so I guess you can include those in the answer as well. I appreciate that others like them, and that’s great, but it’s just not for me. I do see the vision, at least, so that’s something.

T - Do you have any hard and fast head canons that you will die defending?

The blue hoodie El wears during the epilogue of “The Piggyback” is Mike’s hoodie, and no one can convince me otherwise. See this post I made for why I believe this.

[luescris]

. Why is there always that one or few (sometimes a lot) of people in a fandom that starts saying how "bad" something in a show/movie is when literally no. Nothing was bad in said media. Either that or it's blown w a y out of proportion and it doesn't make the fandom fun anymore.

Like yes. You can dislike something. You can have your opinions. But do you also really have to mention it in every post you make? Do you have to put said post in the tag where someone can see it and get their mood ruined?? What part of making an anti tag do you not understand??

Yes, I also understand that I can block said people/things. But it's followed me everywhere so far that at this point it feels almost pointless. I thought I'd gotten used to it too, but new things keep happening and it's just so frustrating.

Legit one person in Lmk fandom keeps saying how s3 disappointed them and legit nothing was wrong with s3??? How can you find it bad but everyone else likes it??

It's happened so many times in my fandoms I want this to stop. The urge to call people out on their bs is so hard to control, and said control is breaking every time I see it. I just want to be in a fandom that has no negativity of any kind and LMK has been doing so good so far (unless I missed something h. And besides the "Wukong's a deadbeat" thing which I am STILL salty about), please do not ruin this too I am begging.

[rose-tinted-kalopsia]

READ BEFORE YOU FOLLOW. please be aware of my rules and guidelines for this blog before you follow/interact. failure to follow my rules will have you blocked! ageless blogs will also be blocked on sight. put your age/adult indicator in your bio or pinned post!

CONTENT.

this is a writing blog, and will contain works written by me as well as reblogs of others' works. however, it is a primarily nsfw blog, meaning that i will be writing and interacting with mature and potentially dark content.

these will be TAGGED (format: "tw (tag)" i.e. "tw non-con"), so you're free to mute specific triggers if anything, but please be aware that such content may show up on my blog from time to time.

some content i will write and interact with include: cnc/dub-con, somnophilia, cum play, pseudo-cest, doctor-patient dynamics, teacher-student dynamics, manipulative/obsessive/possessive tropes (eg: yandere)

some content i will NOT write but may interact with include: non con, stepcest, hard incest.

i also only write x afab!reader (she/her pronouns) works. please understand that this is what i'm most comfortable with writing!

i write for the fandoms listed here, and only the characters specified. stray kids, a k-pop idol group, is a fandom that is listed. for works such as blue lock where the original source material writes them as minors, the characters in my works will be automatically aged up to 20+.

you can find a full list of what i write and do not write here.

DO NOT INTERACT IF...

—you are a minor.

if you are a minor (under the age of 18) or if you don't have your age on your blog, then please do not send me asks or interact with me! i block those who do not have an age indicator somewhere on their blog.

—you cannot separate fiction from reality ("omg that's a minor!!").

the fictional characters i write for are just that—fictional. drawings. it may not be 'canon', but a character is still an adult if written as an adult! i am someone who believes that a canon timeskip and a fanfic timeskip should be on equal ground! if you are not comfortable with this, then you are not part of the target audience. please refrain from sending hateful comments, and just scroll past!

—you are anti/hateful/negative.

i am aware that this blog will contain mature and dark content. again, if you are uncomfortable with that, please do not interact; this means you are not part of the target audience! please refrain from sending hateful comments, and just scroll past.

OTHER RULES.

—mdni.

if you are a minor (under the age of 18) or if you don't have your age on your blog, then please do not send me asks or interact with me! i block those who do not have an age indicator somewhere on their blog.

—please respect my work as my own.

DO NOT: steal, copy, repost, reupload, modify, or claim any of my works as your own, regardless of credit given. absolutely do not use my works for AI training and other related purposes.

—if you know me from my main art blog... shhh!

this is a separate blog under a separate alias, and they're being kept separate for a reason! please do not address me here as my other alias, and do not address me on my main blog as roxie! if you know me, hi!! but let's keep it a secret 🥰

—be polite.

—interact with me!

when commenting or sending me an ask, please be nice and use basic manners! use a please when requesting, and don't bring up triggering/controversial topics such as general discourse, politics, suicide, trauma, religion, etc.

i don't address asks i am uncomfortable with addressing, and they will be deleted automatically.

i do still welcome anons, asks, interactions, and requests! please feel free to comment on my posts, talk to me about your days, your thoughts (hard/thirst hours are always open!!), your favorite characters, if you want to be an emoji anon, and all that! <3 i don't bite- i promise !!

—requests are encouraged, but not promised!

while i'll try my best to get to every request, i only write requests i feel like writing. if it's not up my alley, they will probably go unanswered, but please don't take it to heart!

—please be patient with requests.

i am a graduate student with a part-time job, and other side projects lined up. this is just a fun little thing for me to write some nsfw when i feel inspired, so i may get to requests pretty slowly!

—do NOT poke me on your request/WIP status.

AGAIN, some may go entirely unanswered if i don't feel like writing them; or generally, i may get to requests slowly. please understand that i will NOT entertain these messages. this is all free content, and i write because i want to! please have a little respect for that!

—make sure requests are open before you send any in.

if you send a request in my inbox while they are closed, they will automatically be deleted, or i will otherwise answer to tell you to please check my request status again.

—please be specific when you request!

let me know what you want me to write! mention tropes, characters you want, and as many details as you like. don't hold back; i don't mind long asks!

—please do not send me requests for fandoms and/or characters that are not listed here.

if you send a request for a character NOT LISTED, they will automatically be deleted.

[aizenat]

Not you saying there's nothing about you being negative when you search your name as if posts about you dismissing male victims of abuse just to support a problematic white woman and other users calling you out pls 💀

Listen, this was really fun for a while, but you're making me have to be serious, which obviously isn't fun. So let me read you a bit.

First off, you're lying. Your "posts about you dismissing male victims of abuse" claim isn't a thing at all. The closest thing to a call out post re: me that you'll be able to find in my tag is someone putting me on a block list with random people and ZERO explanation of why. On top of that, that very person has a reputation of making random blocklists for people, and putting them on there despite them being generally left-leaning social liberals who would agree with them on anything. Searching that person's url will bring that up in two seconds. These posts you're pretending to say exist literally don't.

I also know you're lying because never have I ever on my page "dismissed male victims of abuse." If you're trying to reference how I speak out against how Amber Heard was publicly harassed by her abusive ex-husband last year, I don't know what to tell you. I mean, you're trying to defend a loser drunk who has a long history of preying on young and vulnerable women/girls, as well as abuse and violence, who literally texted his friend how he wanted to violently murder her for giggles. I've seen abuse victims deal with that trauma in a lot of ways, and never have I seen one do something like that. Seen plenty of abusers do that, though.

Whether or not Amber Heard is "problematic," it doesn't mean she is incapable of being a victim of abuse and/or misogyny. Implying her being "problematic" immediately means she can't be a victim of these things plays into the perfect victim mindset that literally kills women because, remember, a perfect victim is a dead victim. If a cop racially profiled Kanye West tomorrow and shot and killed him, we would still be upset over the racism of that action despite Kanye being...like that. Someone can hold disgusting views and you can still be disgusted with the way they are oppressed. If Amber not being a perfect victim means she can't be a victim of abuse to you, then that really shows how immature and unintelligent you are. Someone can harbor disgusting views and still be part of a marginalized identity and be a victim to being marginalized. The only way you can say that's not the case is if you believe women are not oppressed. And if we can't even agree on that, then please leave my page because I don't deal with anti-feminists in any capacity.

And to my last point, I really want you to think long and hard about why you decided to take this here over a tag on a fucking gifset. I didn't add to the post, I didn't find the man (whoever he is) to harass him, I didn't go on twitter or online sites where he'd likely see these comments to say this; it was just a random thought I had and wanted to share. The man obviously had work done, at least botox. That's just straight facts. If that annoyed you, a simple unfollow or block would do. If you wanted to send one "hey, that was shitty of you" ask on your way out, then fine.

But you spent all day basically going through my blog looking for things to criticize. You talked about wanting to see what I looked like, obviously so you mock me. You're in my inbox lying about what is being said about me in order to make it seem like I'm some monster. I'm just a random person on tumblr, the least influential social media site, shitposting in my spare time. That's it. There was no reason to take this to this point.

And this is what I mean about the way kpoppies make this not fun. I couldn't reblog something and add something cheeky in the tags without being harassed? All of this over "#idk who this man is but his plastic surgery is very distracting and ugly looking#you get work done then wanna load up on Botox why?" Really? I said a man's botox looked ugly and that warrants you trying to make me look like some horrible person who hates abuse victims or something? Does that even make sense? "Oh, this person dunked on my bias' botox: SHE MUST HATE AND DISMISS ABUSE VICTIMS!"

Like, hello? It's just kpop. It's a billion dollar industry that fuels overworking, eating disorders, body dysmorphia, depression and anxiety, capitalism and consumerism, racism, and misogyny. It doesn't need your defending. And if you decided you didn't like me just for insulting him, that's fine too. You don't need to do that thing where you try to make me "problematic" (I'm not lol) so you can justify it; it's okay to just not like people sometimes. My feelings are not hurt. You are not the first to dislike me, nor will you be the last.

I get that it's the internet and it's easy to not consider the problematic thinking and action patterns that you're engaging in, but when you find yourself rabidly going through someone's page to find "dirt," making up lies about people talking about/calling them out, and sending out hate messages after hate messages, then it's time to log off and take a step back. If you believe yourself to be a good person, and I'm sure you do, then now is a time for self reflection. Be a little self aware. Is this what good people who wish to spread positivity do? Do they send hate anons to strangers all over someone wanting to be a hater for a minute?

So I'm going to turn off anonymous messaging and put you in a bit of a time out so you can calm down and think about how inappropriate you're being. I don't take abuse lightly as I am very familiar with it, and so I will not tolerate you trying to use it as a gotcha all over a fucking gifset of a few kpop idols. One day, I hope you remember your actions today and cringe at how ridiculous you were being. And I really hope you're currently at an age where you'd be able to laugh and think "what a dumb child I was."

[marginaletchings]

10 FANDOM GRIPES/ADVICE

Actually now that I’m on my fandom bullshit again here’s some general gripes I think any fandom can identify with:

1. Your headcanon/interpretation of canon is not canon. You will be much happier if you stop seeing everyone else in bad faith and being aggressive or passive-aggressive to people who don’t share your same interpretation/headcanon. Trust me, your drama levels will decrease if you put this into practice.

2. Just because you dislike something doesn’t mean it’s bad. Just because you like something doesn’t mean it’s good. This also goes for other people, too. Some people enjoy garbage and they know it’s garbage-- do NOT confuse them with the people who don’t understand something is garbage and are obnoxious about it. The former hate the latter too, believe me.

3. Loving something in spite of how poorly executed/written it is, is a thing. Loving something because of the potential it could’ve had is a thing. But you have to be willing to admit that your hope for a piece of media’s potential does not equate a good execution on the part of the creator(s). And once again, just because there’s some good substance there, does not mean it is above reproach or critique.

4. Critique/criticism are NOT BAD THINGS. I know it can be all too easy to take critique as “shit people have to say that’s always negative” and frankly, a lot, a LOT of “critique” is just unbalanced complaints levied in an aggressive, unfriendly manner. However! Actual media analysis is so, so much more than that. Taking apart a piece of media and figuring out how it works and why, both in-universe and out-of-universe and taking production factors into account, is FUN. Adding context to media is FUN. “Critic” is a dirty word these days, but frankly, I wish we could start turning that around. It feels like fandom is so fucking allergic to genuine civil discourse and critical thought these days and it doesn’t have to be that way. Listen: Learning about your favorite media and why it’s your favorite is actually super fun and great, and part of that is understanding its flaws as well as its highlights. When you really love a piece of media, you learn to love it, warts and all; and loving something despite its flaws (and in some cases because of them) is not an endorsement of those flaws, nor is it problematic behavior.

5. It’s okay to like antagonists/unhealthy character dynamics, HOWEVER, you need to understand WHY they are an antagonist, and WHY those dynamics are unhealthy. There is a difference between thinking Griffith from Berserk is a fascinating character study vs saying Griffith did nothing wrong and he’s your precious little meow meow. Frankly, it’s fucking obnoxious to see antag and/or villain stans go ham on things because they start romanticizing that character’s behavior, and then the antis come out, and then everything gets polarized. Like... y’all, there’s such a thing as not going to extremes, you know that, right? Can we not embrace a character, flaws and all, and understand why they suck and still like them anyway? Self-awareness is a GOOD THING.

6. Fucking touch some grass. No, really, I mean it. Get off your computer/phone. Go do something non-digital. Take deep breaths. Tell a loved one that you love them. Pet your dog, cat, lizard, or whatever other animal you have that can be petted. It will do you some good. The internet will be here when you get back. Twitter and Insta and Tumblr can fucking wait while you take some non-screen time to yourself.

7. Don’t go into tags to shout about how you hate X or Y ship/thing. Years ago I saw a post about how it’s like, going into the blueberry muffins aisle, and loudly complaining about blueberry muffins and how they suck. None of us fucking care what you have to say, we are here for blueberry muffins, and you are clearly here for drama and shit-stirring. Fucking stop. Being like UM, REBLOG IF YOU DON’T LIKE X!!! in the #x tag, is peak basic bitch behavior. You will be much happier and more chill if you learn to just let people like the things they like, I PROMISE you.

Also, people posting in general or gushing about a ship does not constitute as them pushing it on you. If you don’t want to see anything about a ship, block the tag and keywords, it’s that simple. 

Frankly, even if you’re outside a ship tag and you start talking about how a certain dynamic is clearly familial/platonic, apropos of ENTIRELY nothing, it makes you come off like a rainbow-ass clown with a passive aggressive bone to pick. Stop fucking vagueblogging. Shit or get off the pot or get over whatever weird hateboner you have and Move. On.

8. Let people write their nasty OOC toxic smutfic. As long as it has appropriate warnings and tags, and isn’t catering to nasty p*doshit (literal adults and literal children), then fucking let. It. Go. No one is being hurt by this. It is fictional. IT. IS. FICTIONAL. 

9. Let adults have their safe fandom spaces, and let minors have theirs. I know there’s going to be overlap, especially for groups that are in their late teens/early 20s. Overlap is okay, it’s fine, whatever. But for the love of God, PLEASE respect the boundaries of others-- if you are 18+, don’t go into spaces for minors. Vice versa, do not go into spaces that are 18+ if you are not 18+. 

10. Learn to curate your online experience. Stop leaving it up to the algorithms. Learn to block tags, accounts, keywords, etc. I myself have legitimate triggers from trauma and instead of demanding the world bend over backwards to never ever talk about content that might make me uncomfortable, I take the initiative and protect myself first. If I see something that got through that filter, I’m not going to scream and cry about it--it was not a moral failing on the part of the poster, even if they forgot to put up a tag. Shit like this happens and part of living with triggers and discomforts is learning to cope with them when we can’t remove them or ourselves. You will be far happier if you stop following blogs/accounts/hashtags that make you upset.

[jiangchengneedstherapy]

Pretty sure it’s been repeated many times already, the reason why “canon jiang cheng” tag was made, was because if someone so much as quoted the novel was told ‘stop jc hate/put it into anti tag’ or ‘make your own tag!’ I feel like that is one of the reasons now that people have been making posts talking about reclaiming him there’s lot of passive aggressiveness in the responses, because it feels like you’re agreeing with that at first glance. “I have no issues with varying perspectives regarding jiang cheng or any other character, I just care that you use the tag “canon” for only one of those perspectives which I think takes away from the nuance of the topics and the story as a whole.“ I understand where you’re coming from, though the tag was made by fans who wished to talk about jc the way he was in the novel, it now does have stans and antis alike using it which you can ask the majority neutral tag users who use it for intended reasons have already blocked, or are responding to them. However, there comes the prev point again, we can’t tell what someone’s intent is behind posting, for example your post felt very sweet and neutral to read (at least to me but I also see why others confused you for another person trying to ‘reclaim’ the tag) and just feels like a neutral discussion but there are still things that are a bit unsure on what you’re saying. For example: “I have no issues with varying perspectives regarding jiang cheng or any other character, I just care that you use the tag “canon” for only one of those perspectives which I think takes away from the nuance of the topics and the story as a whole.” can mean anywhere from you wanting a more in depth talk in his character than simple ‘jc was bad in this’ to..well In the past if someone even said “hey isn’t it terrible that jc declared wwx an enemy to sects even though they agreed to tell people wwx left the sect?” they would be told thats hate, thats anti, and not a canon statement, even though the person would be using direct quotes from the novel next to interpretation.  So yea when you just say that canon tag is not accurate, its hard to tell if you’re talking about the bashing posts that have entered the tag through some antis or just any interpretation that talks about negative things jc did canonically. “my proposed idea was to change the content of “canon jiang cheng” because it doesn’t accurately represent, imo, what the word canon means in the fandom context. considering most posts criticize jc’s actions, a tag like “jiang cheng critical”  most posts (once again, not including the bashing/stan posts that have entered the tag) criticising jc do it in regard to what the guy does word to word in the novel.  Like quoting the novel where jiang cheng uses a dog knowing wwx fears it more than death as way to torture him, or jiang cheng’s own thoughts along with his disciple quotes proving he in fact tortured innocent people who were not wwx come back from the dead even after zidian confirms it, in these contexts, if the person adds their interpretation that ‘hey thats a shitty thing to do’ and criticise him, i think that is still under canon category (the tag was made for any discussions in line with canon because if you were to say ‘hey jc was shitty in these scenes’ in the jc tag there would be 15 different comments telling them how wrong they are and how they need to put ‘jc hate’ into anti tags)  like if we say ‘look how shitty wrh was/jgy was in these scenes’ in wrh/jgy tag there’s nothing wrong about that, but jc tag was too overtaken by fanon that it finally ended in people making the canon tag out of frustration to just discus what he does in the novel (ik im sounding repetitive here but im trying my best to explain haha)

So while i get what you’re saying that ‘canon’ tag should only have quotes, i do think if the discussion is based on canon facts and interpretation is following novel quotes/isn’t something that goes against the novel or what the novel is trying to tell, i think that does have a place in the ‘canon jc’ tag because that was what the tag was made for.

“omnipresent can still be a biased narrator. just because we know about scenes where wwx isn’t present, doesn’t mean we understand or know their motivations or thoughts behind said scene - wwx is the main narrator and we know his thoughts specifically (though there are limited exceptions like jc and the core-reveal). mxtx definitely flips back and forth between omnipresent and omniscient but regardless, biases and unreliable narration can still exist within those.” This part however, is a long known fanon pet peeve because in certain scenes the novel goes into the heads of characters like what jc is thinking, it has info wwx has no way of knowing like jgy giving jl the dog during the time he was dead, there are even scenes where wwx is not present at the time like the discussion conference, even jzx’s perspective and what jyl was secretly doing, wherever its wwx’s perspective the novel makes it clear like ‘wwx thought/wwx saw/wwx believed’ etc, while other times it goes ‘jc thought/jyl secretly unknown to everyone/some sects were gathered and talking’ without wwx’s perspective on things its not limited in switching povs and i get what you’re saying, that canon jc tag shouldnt be considered ‘true’ perspective, i agree, nothing other than novel texts can be considered ‘true’ and any and all interpretations will always be interpretations, thing is how close to ‘true’/’canon’/’novel’ are these interpretations to make them canon compliant. 

See, I would believe that people who were originally on the "canon jiang cheng" tag were using it as a space to discuss his more morally ambiguous decisions except every other post on there was also tagged "anti jiang cheng". Also using canon in the tag is very bold especially when it's all individual interpretations of the character, which means it falls under fanon instead.

I would also have a more positive perspective if the tag was "jiang cheng critical" if the goal was to have engaging discussions but the audacity of tagging it "canon jiang cheng"....

So yea. So going forward, I propose:

Jiang cheng critical - if you wanna engage in discussion and debate

Canon jiang cheng - for gifs, quotes, fanart etc.

Jiang cheng - for people who enjoy the character and/or canon jiang cheng content

Anti-jiang cheng - for those who don't like the character and don't enjoy him (essentially please by sympathetic to people who actually enjoy the character and related content)