#Philippe de Commynes

[c-etait-ailleurs]

Je me suis souvent repenti d'avoir parlé, jamais de m’être tu.

Philippe de Commynes

[ibonoco]

Silence! No speak! No people!

“Je me suis souvent repenti d’avoir parlé, mais jamais de m’être tu.” The Cure – Grinding Halt – 1979 Philippe de Commynes, seigneur de l’Isle-Jourdain, était un homme d’État et écrivain français du XVe siècle. Né en 1447, il a commencé sa carrière en tant que page à la cour du duc de Bourgogne, Charles le Téméraire. Par la suite, il a servi comme conseiller et ambassadeur pour plusieurs rois…

[wonder-worker]

I heard that Edward IV and Elizabeth Widvile were known to be very beautiful. Were there any reports on their appearance at the time?

anon 😂

But yes, contemporaries and post contemporaries in the 16th century were pretty much unanimous in praising their appearance. I'll list some of the ones I could find:

Elizabeth:

'The most beautiful woman in England' ('la plus belle fille d'Engleterre') - Jean de Waurin

'Her very great beauty' ('sa tres grande beaute') - Jean de Waurin

"Her beauty of person and charm of manner" - Dominic Mancini

"None of such constant womanhood, wisdom and beauty" - Hearne's Fragment; its author was one of Edward IV's servants

"A daughter of prodigious beauty' - 1469 Continuator of Monstrelet's Chronicle

"Both faire, of a good favor, moderate of stature, well made and very wise" - Thomas More

Edward IV:

"The beauty of your personage it hath pleased Almighty God to send you" - James Strangways, Speaker of the Commons in Parliament

"The king is a handsome upstanding man" - Gabriel Tretzel, travels of Leo of Rozmital

"A handsome prince and had style" - Oliver De La Marche

"In the flower of his age, tall of stature, elegant of person" - Croyland Chronicle

"One of the handsomest knights of his kingdom" - 1469 Continuator of Monstrelet's Chronicle

"A handsome and worthy prince" - Pietro Alipranto

‘...Tall and strapping as the king’ - John Paston, Paston Letters

"He was young and more handsome than any man then alive" - Philippe de Commynes

"A man so vigorous and handsome that he might have been made for the pleasures of the flesh" - Philippe de Commynes

"The handsomest prince my eyes ever beheld" and "I don't remember ever having seen a man more handsome than he was" - Philippe de Commynes

"A very handsome prince" - Louis XI, from the Memoirs of Commynes

"He being a person of most elegant appearance, and remarkable beyond all others for the attractions of his person" - the Croyland Chronicle, referencing Edward a few months before he died

"He seized any opportunity that the occasion offered of revealing his fine stature more protractedly and more evidently to onlookers" - Dominic Mancini, writing shortly after his death

"He was a goodly personage and very princely to behold...of visage lovely, of body mighty, strong and cleanly made; howbeit in his latter days, with an over liberal diet, somewhat corpulent, but nevertheless noy uncomely" - Thomas More

Etc.

I'm tagging @edwardslovelyelizabeth because I think you got a similar ask?

I hope this answers your question, anon! I don't generally pay a lot of attention to the physical appearance of historical figures (I find it pretty irrelevant), but in this case, it ultimately does play a role in both Edward IV and Elizabeth's historiographies for better and for worse, and seems to have actually been a personal prop of Edward's kingship, so I don't mind discussing it :)

[wishesofeternity]

“Ecclesiastics were so common and employed in so many activities that their presence in espionage was inevitable. Edward IV used monks from Cerne and Abingdon to help locate Henry VI in 1465, and in 1492 a monk was one of two spies employed by Henry VII. Henry used priests to take his messages to Brittany in 1492 to contact Breton rebels and stir them against Charles VIII of France. And since he used them as spies and messengers he knew that they would be used against him. Thus he ordered his Deputy at Calais, Gilbert Talbot, to prevent the passage into England of one Robert Stewart, friar, from France. Real clerics engaged as spies form one half of the equation. The other is the adoption of clerical disguise. After Warbeck's defeat in 1497 one of his followers, an ex-household official of Edward IV disguised himself as a hermit and avoided capture for several weeks.·'" Bernard de Vignolles recounted how a Spanish astrologer, hired to help murder Henry VII, was to come to England disguised as a pilgrim on his way to the shrine of Compostella. 'He would come to England in the habit of a friar, and because (he) had lost two of his teeth he would procure two others of ivory, of the colour of his own.' The pretended pilgrimage was a boon to secret diplomacy. It was a ruse advised by Vegetius, repeated by Christine de Pisan and personally employed by Philippe de Commynes. The Scots sent negotiators to England under colour of a pilgrimage to Durham; and the Douglases negotiated with the English government while ostensibly on pilgrimage to Canterbury or Rome.”

- “Espionage and Intelligence from the Wars of the Roses to the Reformation”

[katybirdy95]

Do you have any favorite sentences about Edward IV that you can share?

Hey there!

I had to think about this as there are many facts about Edward IV I find interesting, but as you specified sentences, I will attempt to stick with that.

Philippe de Commynes who was a Burgundian and French diplomat when first encountering Edward IV in 1470 and was struck by how beautiful he was, stated, “the most handsomest prince my eyes ever beheld”.

It makes you wonder how handsome he actually was… an interest piece of information was when Edward IV was gathering money to fund his war with France, a widow provided him with a loan of £10 and to thank her for the generous amount, Edward kissed her, which lead to the widow giving him £20 instead.

This quote always makes me smile with the amount of times “KIND” is used in it, but this was written by Thomas More about a mistress of Edward IV, Elizabeth Lucy who was thought to be the woman he had been preconstructed to marry before Elizabeth Woodville, instead of Eleanor Butler.

I don’t know how accurate it is as Elizabeth Lucy appears to have not existed, but instead the Mistress Lucy in question could have been Margaret FitLewis, Lady Lucy who did exist during the Wars of the Roses and could have had a daughter by Edward also called Margaret who went on to marry Thomas Lumley.

Anyway, I’m babbling, here is the quote: "his grace spoke such loving words to her, she verily hoped he would have married her, and if it had not been for such kind words she would never have shown such kindness to let him so kindly get her with child."

I hope this was what you were looking for anon?

[susanandmean]

。then accustomed, after twelve or thirteen years, to more luxuries and pleasures than any prince of his day because he thought of nothing else but women (far more than is reasonable), hunting, and looking after himself. During the hunting season he would have several tents brought along for the ladies. All in all he had made a great show of this and also he had a personality as well suited to these pursuits as any I have ever seen. He was young and more handsome than any man then alive. I say he was at the time of this because later he became very fat.………PHILIPPE DE COMMYNES………

Dear Philip, I know you really like the face of the King of England, but this sudden regret is too strange

[suean34]

The Duke of Burgundy was in Luxembourg at the time, and upon learning of these lawsuits, he hurried to the King of England with only sixteen horses accompanying him. The King of England was very surprised when he suddenly came and asked what brought him there, because he could tell from his face that he was very angry. The Duke told him that he came to talk to him. The King of England asked whether it should be public or private? Then the Duke asked him if he had made peace; The king told him that he had been in a truce for nine years, and both the Duke of Brittany and himself understood this. He hoped they would accept this understanding. The Duke fell into a strong passion, in English, a language he spoke very well, to begin commemorating the glorious achievements of his predecessors on the English throne who had invaded France before, and how they spared no effort and refused any danger, which could make them famous and earn them immortal honor and reputation abroad. Then he slammed the armistice agreement and told the king that he invited the British to France not because he needed their help, but only to restore their rights and inheritance; In order to convince them that he could survive without their alliance, he decided not to use the ceasefire until the king stayed in England for three months; After surrendering in this way, he bid farewell to the king and returned to Luxembourg. The King of England and his Parliament were very dissatisfied with his language, but other opponents of peace highly praised his language.——Philippe de Commynes

Edward IV is such a good tempered person hahahahaha

[edwardslovelyelizabeth]

What exactly did Philippe de Comes say about Edward IV of England? The rumor of Edward IV of England's illegitimate child has a lot to do with him ...

Do you mean the rumor that Edward was a bastard? I wrote about it. it's hardly true (here: https://www.tumblr.com/edwardslovelyelizabeth/735967801386336256/whats-the-basis-of-the-rumor-about-edward-iv-of?source=share). Commynes wrote for the french court, the french and the english were not "friends" at the time so even though he was a witness to certain events at court he wrote with a bias for his king. And even if we assume Edward was a bastard it wouldn't matter because he did not inherit the throne - he won it by the right of conquest. Besides Cecily Neville had a stronger claim to the throne than her husband Richard of York.

[beardofkamenev]

The Earl of Richmond told me, not long before his departure from this kingdom [France], that from the time he was five years old he had been always a fugitive or a prisoner. He had endured an imprisonment of fifteen years or thereabouts in Bretagne, by the command of the Duke Francis, into whose hands he fell by extremity of weather, as he was escaping out of France with his uncle [Jasper Tudor] the Earl of Pembroke.

On Henry VII’s exile, The Memoirs Of Philippe De Commines (1498)

[richmond-rex]

I have two questions if that is alright? The first is, do you think that Henry Tudor would have posed a major concern to Richard III at the beginning of his reign? Was there enough of a Lancastrian power base in England that he would be a threat simply by existing, or were the other Yorkists the bigger issue? (Also wondering, why Edward IV didn't simply have Henry assassinated? Like, obviously I don't wish it had happened, I quite like Henry VII, but it seems the sensible choice?)

Secondly, do we no much about the relationship between Lord Stanley and Margaret Beaufort? Did his going over to Henry's side have anything to do with his feelings about her, or was it all politics? Do you think he knew about his brother supporting Perkin Warbeck? I know they didn't consummate their marriage, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they weren't in love?

(Also, and I'm really sorry because I know I'm asking way more than two questions so please don't feel you have to answer, but were the Stanley's really as treacherous as is reputed? If so, how were they thought of in an age so concerned with honour?)

Hi! So, let me try to break it down into two separate questions: 1) Henry Tudor as a threat to Yorkist rule & 2) Thomas Stanley's character and reputation. I will talk about the first question now and since my answer got really long I will talk about the second question in a future reblog.

So was Henry Tudor ever a threat to Yorkist rule? Speaking in practical terms, no one could be a threat to any regime without financial and military backing. Leaving practicalities aside, the answer depends on who you ask, and I don't mean by that which historian you ask nowadays with the benefit of hindsight and knowledge that Edward IV would establish himself firmly on the throne after 1471. By that, I mean which country at that time you would ask that question. There's this idea that Henry Tudor was an obscure nobody with barely a claim to the throne so no one paid attention to him but that's not exactly how people saw him. Louis XI of France was itching to get Henry after Tewkesbury and Francis II of Brittany understood quite well what a threat Henry Tudor could be to Edward IV and exploited that idea to make his demands on England easier. This is from a 16th-century chronicle about Breton History (forgive me for my poor translation):

"But the Earl of Richmont, young prince, relative of the captive King Henry, saved himself by running away with the Earl of Pembroke [...] The Duke [of Brittany] was very glad about that turn of events, because he thought to himself that, while he had that young prince in his hands, he would be easily furnished with forces and means from the King of England, who feared greatly that the Earl of Richmond would go towards the King of France, whom he had discovered was ill-disposed towards him, and would make every effort to catch the young prince and make opposition and wage war on him."

"The Duke was very glad about that turn of events: because in that way it would be possible to have the will of King Edward in his hands [...] As King Edward was informed about the turn of events & that [the earls] were in Brittany, he was strongly displeased that they had been saved and come to Brittany & secretly sent certain deputies towards the Duke, with great gifts, to induce him to deliver them in his hands & it seemed that he sensed that from that side something bad would come. The envoys unloaded their charge & by doing so they made it quite clear to the Duke that the people he had were not people of little importance & carried great loot [?] & because of that [the Duke] decided to keep them & answered the King of England that for his honour he could not deliver them, them being princes of great importance, fugitives & banished from their country, come by accident to his land."

The arrival of the Tudor earls was also noted with displeasure by the French side, as registered by Philippe de Commynes in his memoir. Louis XI took steps to negotiate as though they were both members of his household who he wished to have returned to his court.

The number of attempts to have Henry delivered to either England or France once he arrived in Brittany confirms what type of attention Henry was able to gather. In 1472 Edward sent Anthony Woodville Earl of Rivers along with numbers of military help to convince the Duke of Brittany to hand over the Tudor earls; in 1474, Louis sent a series of detailed instructions to Guillaume Compaing, who was ordered to seek a meeting with the duke and request that both Jasper and Henry be set at liberty. In 1476 Edward tried to convince Henry to return to England by offering him a pardon and Elizabeth of York's hand — offer and pardon which Henry thought to be false, managing to escape from Edward's envoys not without some difficulty. Although after that failed attempt I've read that Edward considered himself sufficiently safe not to fear Henry Tudor anymore, this Breton history chronicle tells me Edward had been in secret negotiation with the Breton ministry Pierre Landais in the early 1480s, negotiations that did not go ahead thanks to his untimely demise.

So the thing about Henry Tudor wasn't that he could mobilise a strong Lancastrian powerbase in England — indeed, Lancastrian loyalists had either been decimated or forced to reconcile with the Yorkist regime — the real danger Henry Tudor posed was that he could be supported and backed militarily and financially by France, which, ultimately, he was. Interestingly though, according to the witnesses gathered to testify in the application of Henry VII and Elizabeth of York's papal dispensation, Henry and Elizabeth's shared ancestry had been in discussion many years before (to what an end, I wonder, a marriage?), by former Lancastrians such as John Fortescue, Archbishop George Neville and the Duchess of Buckingham, all who died in the period 1476-1480. I wonder if Edward IV had even been aware of those discussions.

The answer as to why Edward IV didn't have Henry assassinated is simple: Francis kept him under close guard and even moved him from castle to castle to make it more difficult for him to be captured or killed. The Breton chronicle refers to Henry as the Duke's prisoner and mentions that it was only after Edward IV's death that Henry was allowed to move without the Duke's guard around him. Knowing Edward had the Duke of Exeter thrown overboard from his ship in 1475, it's possible he would have had Henry Tudor assassinated given the chance, but we'll never know. By 1482, though, after signing a pardon for Henry, it seems Edward had in mind to bring him over to England rather than assassinate him.

Do you think that Henry Tudor would have posed a major concern to Richard III at the beginning of his reign? It's hard to tell, but it surely is interesting how much deference Richard III paid to Margaret Beaufort and her husband Thomas Stanley at the beginning of his reign. Margaret carried Queen Anne Neville's train during her coronation, a position of no small prestige and importance. I think it's impossible that Richard wouldn't know who Henry Tudor was or his brother's efforts to have Tudor extracted from Brittany. Indeed, the Breton history account mentions that 'as soon as Richard was established', he sent to the Duke of Brittany a man called Master Thomas Huton with a great sum of money to induce the duke to put Henry under guard again (and possibly under house arrest), and a letter about that subject was found dated from February 1484. It's hard to know if Richard only did that by the start of 1484 because once established domestically he could finally turn to foreign affairs and that's why he didn't contact Brittany sooner or if Richard only did that because by November 1483 Henry Tudor had declared his claim and intentions. Later in 1484, Richard sent one of his most trusted men, William Catesby, to have Henry Tudor returned to England, but Henry was warned and escaped to France.

Henry Tudor posed to Richard III the same threat he posed to Edward IV — he had been France's apparent candidate to the English crown since 1471, perhaps also by virtue of his kinship with the kings of France. Louis XI told Duke Francis of Brittany that he considered Jasper Tudor his cousin and he indeed was his 1st cousin, forJasper's mother Catherine of Valois was the sister of Louis' father, King Charles VII of France. Henry Tudor was also well connected with Scotland, should the opportunity arise. Henry's great-aunt, Joan Beaufort, his grandfather's (most likely twin) sister, had been Queen of Scotland, and her children including the king of Scotland were the 1st cousins of Margaret Beaufort. Finally, Jasper and Henry Tudor were well-known and well-liked in Wales and could stir up problems there if so minded.

Allow me to apologise and finish my answer here for the time. I'll go back to this ask in the future to talk about Thomas Stanley 🌹x

[ladymagunaofiguanas]

French Quotes About Life

Few days ago, I needed something to inspire and motivate me to write, study and enjoy life. Then, I came across many quotes in french that inspired me. I would love to share with you all, hoping that you get motivated and inspired! Next French Love Quotes coming up! :)

❝ Tout comprendre, c’est tout pardonner.❞            ― Leo Tolstoy

To understand all is to forgive all.

❝ La mort n’a peut-être pas plus de secrets a nous reveler que la vie?❞          ― Gustave Flaubert

Perhaps death doesn’t have any more secrets to reveal to us than life?

❝ Nous promettons selon nos espérances, et nous tenons selon nos craintes.❞          ― François de La Rochefoucauld

We promise according to our hopes; we fulfill according to our fears.

❝ La mort ne surprend point le sage: Il est toujours prêt à partir.❞         ― Jean de La Fontaine

Death never takes the wise man by surprise, he is always ready to go.

❝ Pour exécuter de grandes choses, il faut vivre comme si on ne devait jamais mourir.❞        ― Luc de Clapiers, Marquis de Vauvenargues

In order to achieve great things, we must live as though we were never going to die. 

❝ Rien ne pèse tant qu’un secret.❞       ― Jean de La Fontaine

Nothing weighs more than a secret.

❝ Il faut vivre comme on pense, sans quoi l’on finira par penser comme on a vécu..❞       ― Paul Bourget

You have to live the way you think, otherwise you’ll end up thinking the way you lived.

❝Je me suis souvent repenti d’avoir parlé, mais jamais de m’être tu.❞      ― Philippe de Commynes

I have often repented for speaking, but never for staying silent. 

❝Il est difficle de vaincre ses passions, et impossible de les satisfaire.❞      ― Marguerite de la Sablière

It is difficult to master one’s passions, and impossible to satisfy them.

❝ Toute chose appartient à qui sait en jouir.❞

Everything belongs to those who can appreciate it.

❝ La vie ce n’est pas d’attendre que les orages passent, c’est d’apprendre a danser sous la pluie.❞

 Life isn’t about waiting for the storms to pass, it’s about learning how to dance in the rain. 

[blackboar]

Journey to Bosworth: Behind Henry Tudor, the hand of France.

Today we're not talking about a particular figure that was vindicated or wronged at Bosworth field but about a country whose support was important, if not decisive, in the Tudor triumph: France.

France's support for the Tudor cause is a primal example of internal policy shaping the foreign one. During Louis XI's reign (1461-1483), France became more centralized country, destroying many powerful vassal's fiefdoms (Anjou, Burgundy, Armagnac, etc.…). Louis had made plans to incorporate one of the last large feudal demesnes autonomous from royal power: the duchy of Britanny. Britanny had been sometimes an English ally during the Hundred Years War, and it had a very fragile succession as Francis II of Britanny had only two daughters and cousins eager to take their place when he died. The issue was that Louis XI died before and left as ruler thirteen years of Charles VIII under his elder sister, Anne de Beaujeu. Anne wanted to pursue her father's expansionist policy. Still, as a regent, her position was far less secure, and there was a backlash from the nobility against her father's legacy. So France was quite unstable during the beginning of Charles VIII's reign, culminating in the 1485-1488 'Mad War' between the regency and various nobles supported by foreign powers.

The last thing Anne and her councilors wanted was English involvement during the difficult steps of a minority. England had shown itself troublesome in the previous centuries, and their kings still claimed the French crown. They also had an important stronghold in the country with the town of Calais, nearby northern France. Louis XI was very eager to not meddle with England and have it as neutral or as an ally against his enemies. This is why he gave help to the Lancastrians during the 1460s and supported Henry VI's restoration in 1470. He wanted English help against Burgundy, and Lancastrian England did declare war on the duchy prematurely in 1471, before Edward IV's invasion and restoration a few months later.

Failing to make England an ally, Louis XI at least succeeded at buying its neutrality. In 1474, he immediately made his peace with the triumphant Yorkist king in exchange for £10,000 per year and £15,000. He also promised his heir Charles to Elizabeth of York. But their relationship faded soon after. In 1480, England waged war against France's ally Scotland. Louis XI, who finally made his peace with the Burgundian estates in 1482, had no desire to neutralize Edward IV anymore. He stopped paying his pension and broke his son's marriage toward Elizabeth of York in exchange for a much more promising one with Margaret of Burgundy. It was a foreign policy disaster for Edward IV, who lost his Burgundian ally and his compensations for doing so.

1482 was a geopolitical disaster for England, which made Edward IV look like a fool. He made an unpopular peace that looked like he was bribed by England's traditional foe and got fooled by it.

Richard, who was duke of Gloucester by that time, was vindicated. He was the one who argued against peace. When Louis XI made his peace with Edward IV in 1475, he made sure to sustain it by giving pensions to many magnates like Lord Stanley, lord Howard or Lord Hastings. Richard refused to get money from the enemy and returned to the north shortly after, with rumors of tensions between him and his brother. Between 1480 and 1482, he spearheaded the efforts against Scotland, returning Berwick to England after its loss during Henry VI's reign. His prestige was enormous and no doubt played its part in his subsequent usurpation. Richard III had by 1483 the image of the greatest living warrior in England and an uncompromising foe to England's enemies.

When Edward IV died, Louis XI's last days were focused on events across the Channel. No doubt he was happy to see a minority that could neutralize England for many years. But by June, it was clear that his brother Richard would be king and shape his realm's foreign policy. Louis XI saw himself dying in the summer of 1483, and his worst fears were becoming real. It wouldn't be a child king in England closely monitored by the experienced Louis XI, but a bellicist and able king in England facing a frail regency in France.

Thus, Louis XI's last days might have been focused on the English situation. With Burgundy finally cowed and many other French magnates disappeared, London was the biggest threat. And Louis XI himself had broken the Picquigny deal, while Scotland was in no shape to help its French ally (they would have internal strife until James III died in 1488). Louis XI might have died advising his daughter and son-in-law, the future regents, to take care of the English problem first.

Anne would take up the regency and be a dominant figure in French politics. Her first target was Britanny, with an aging duke Francis II with only daughters to succeed. Francis II also had Henry Tudor in his custody. In late 1483, he would support an ill-fated attempt to overthrow Richard III hoping that the Tudor pretender would help Britanny against the regency. Its failure would condemn Francis II's hopes of immediate English help.

Anne de Beaujeu, regent of France, didn't look kindly on those attempts and had no cards to play in this game. She was too busy enforcing the regency and organizing the General Estates (reunion of the representatives of the three orders of France) at Tours in 1484. In short, she was in a fight for the regency against her male cousin and brother-in-law Louis II of Orléans. However, she never lost attention from the English question, as in the Tours General Estates. The chancellor of France, Guillaume de Rochefort, would discuss Edward V's fate compared to their own child-king Charles VIII. French propagandists and servants like Philippe de Commynes or the chancellor of France itself would accuse Richard III of killing his nephews. In short: the French regency was doing everything in its power to slander Richard III in the eyes of the French and continental public. The General Estates of Tours was the first to assemble deputies from the whole kingdom of France and the surest way to make sure those rumors would widely spread.

In September 1484, an opening would create itself for Anne. Henry Tudor would flee the destabilized court of Francis II (one of his councilors tried to sell him to Richard III) and come forward to his cousins of France. There, Anne would welcome him and secure the extradition of his other supporters stuck in Britanny. The Tudor card was now in French hands, and Britanny had now lost control of the English situation.

What did Anne think of the cousin she saw for the first time? They had a common ancestor in Charles VI of France, but familial solidarity was secondary to preserving one's estate and positions. Anne's position as a regent was precarious, and she certainly saw in 1484 the burgeoning of the feudal coalition against her. It was crucial to deter English involvement in the war. Indeed, Henry Tudor might have promised support to Britanny in 1483 in exchange for their help during Buckingham's rebellion. However, Briton's treasurer Pierre Landais did try to sell him to Richard III in exchange for support against France. This might have deterred Henry toward any promises he had made to Britanny in the past, but it was also worrying news for Anne, as it shows that Richard III was more than ready to intervene in France. For Anne de Beaujeu, Henry Tudor was free to ally with France and might be her best pawn against Richard III.

In March 1485, Richard III's wife died. It weakened his position, as rumors were spread accusing Richard III of poisoning his wife to marry his niece, Elizabeth of York. But that was another threat for Anne as Richard III was now free to use his marriage to create an alliance on the international stage. He might have considered Francis II of Brittany's heir, Anne, catastrophic for France. Henry Tudor would finally secure French support indispensable for his expedition.

When he landed at Milford Haven in Wales, Henry Tudor was accompanied by various exiles and opponents of Richard III. Those magnates (Wells, his uncle Jasper, the earl of Oxford) didn't bring many troops with them, and the bulk of the Tudor forces were French (and maybe Scottish) mercenaries led by Philibert de Chandée. Those mercenaries might have been 5,000 but were more probably 2,000 strong. With them, Henry Tudor received from the French king 40,000 Livres tournois for his expenses. Without France, Henry Tudor wouldn't be capable of being a challenge for Richard III. It is not sure if Anne and her allies thought that Henry Tudor would win. However, it would prevent Richard III from interfering in France for a time.

Thus, during 1485, in which Louis of Orleans would try various methods to overthrow the regency, England would not intervene. It was infringed by its internal matters, with Henry Tudor's expedition and ascension to the throne. Anne would succeed at overthrowing a dangerous bellicist king for a king untested in battle. Better, Henry Tudor's hand was promised to Elizabeth of York so that Anne wouldn't fear any dangerous marriage from him.

It's important to note that Henry Tudor wasn't a French puppet. The rumors that Henry VII would surrender Calais to the French in exchange for their help would prove unfounded. Henry VII would also support Britanny's support for independence in 1488, but on a small scale (he sent at best 700 men). His invasion of France in 1492 would be aborted, and Henry VII would resort to Edward IV's policies of getting pensions from France.

What Anne planned to achieve by putting France's weight behind Henry Tudor was, in the short term, to neutralize England. In the long-term, it was to replace Richard III, a dangerous, bellicist king whose anti-french policies were an indication that England might intervene in the continent on a large scale. Contrary to Edward IV or Henry VII, there was every evidence that Richard III wouldn't back down in exchange for cash. Bosworth was, indirectly, a French victory, which is deeply ironic as it marks for some the end of the French era.

If Richard III won at Bosworth, we might have looked at a whole different timeline. Richard might have sought revenge on France and court Anne of Britanny's hand. We could look at an alternative timeline in which Richard III land in Britanny, marry the heiress, and wage war against the regency.

[lady-plantagenet]

shipping bingo george and isabel :)

~ Did anyone expect anything different ~ hh. You indulge me my friend ;).

Some Comments: I am picky about it, because like most of us weirdos on here I feel somewhat protective of how my OTP is depicted, but given how it is almost never shown as anything other than a terrible relationship full of abuse and neglect (entirely based on given author’s need to exalt Anne/Richard III in its place or their inexplicable hatred towards Clarence) at this stage my standards are so low I will accept anything that shows the relationship as remotely pleasant. Not only do I read fic/would but I write fic, so one step ahead hehheh. You may have noticed I didn’t pick ‘complicated’ because even though I doubt there were never tensions among them (given what happened historically), the relationship in itself had none of the unconventionalities that would indicate that their feelings were anything towards each other but loving and faithful - they were barely ever apart! This in itself makes it at once unconventional and (given Clarence’s track record at switching loyalties at his displeasure) downright intriguing. I put softly both for my feelings and the circumstancial evidence that indicates that the marriage served as a sort of cushion for both against the visccitudes they would face in their lives. Unhealthily... ok I’m not talking about myself but rather that the marriage itself had also led to severe issues: Clarence spinning out of control after her death, Isabel becoming severed from her family, Isabel losing her child during their crossing into the channel. Like who knows, if they married other people maybe both would have lived longer lives.

The Ship:

Honestly, I harp on about these two loads and I will not write everyone an essay about why I inexplicably like this pairing so much (apart from the fact that I am technically a product of this union lmao). But I’ll still add... George x Isabel is very unassuming from the outside, just a conventional arranged marriage right? Sure, Edward taking great pains to veto it it has the whole forbidden love angle and (according to contemporary commentator: J. de Wavrin in Recueil des Chroniques et Anchienne Istories de la Grant Bretaigne, à Present) he had even briefly put George in house arrest when he was bringing it up (lmao), but it’s not Edward IVxElizabeth Woodville or Jacquetta Woodville x Richard Woodville or the other famous love matches. Without going into its more well-known dramatisation-worthy elements, I will just say that, on objective analysis, it was a union that brought a fulfilment neither would otherwise have had. George’s greatest power and influence came from being Warwick’s political heir and a feudal magnate, not the prince he was from birth. The years (1473-1476) he had spent being ‘good lord’ (beside Isabel) were most likely the only time in his adult-life he had felt any sense of happiness (in the Aristotelian manner of speaking), having his worth confirmed. He was praised heavily by Rous and it was only within those years that he did not make any move for the crown (until Isabel died that is). Isabel had grown up most likely expecting to grow into the greatest lady of the realm, sure most noblewomen did but she was heiress to one of the greatest and richest barons in England’s entire history. Sure, her father and husband rebelling caused the patrimony (and matrimony) to be lost in 1470, but had it not been for those strange circumstances Isabel may have never inherited the humongous share that she did (because she would co-inherit with her cousin Montagu and sister Anne).

It was very down to Clarence’s merit as an orator and counsel (Crowland praised him heavily on his talented performance in the inheritance trials) and extraordinary perseverance that she could live the life she had probably envisioned for herself since she could speak. It is also a nice trope subversion of the hero using his sword in a duel to champion the lady, here the ‘hero’ fought hours and hours in court and against his brothers and with his mind as his weapon. It was an outcome which she herself had fought for at the expense of her father, mother and sister (by clandestinely liaising with Edward IV while in France to bring her husband back into favour - this message passing was reported in Philippe De Commynes’ writing). Of course, that action could also be construed out of a deep love on her part, it must have been very deep given the risk was her family’s safety. And there’s a litany of clues that point to not only how inheriting the massive legacy of Warwick was a joint-enterprise but also how strong the bond must have been for someone like Clarence to have (as a man) visibly represented himself as marrying into his wife’s family as opposed to vice versa. I mean he wasn’t some humble suitor below her dependent on her name and fortune, after all though she may have been noble but he was a prince! He buried himself with her (among her ancestors), constructed a tower at Warwick castle and named it the ‘Clarence and Bear’ tower (the bear signifying Isabel’s ancestral emblem), took part in her ancestor’s numerous traditions (Hicks) and there’s others but I feel like this is already turning into an essay (which I promised it would not!). Add to all this the fact that the Neville name had become disgraced by that point, the aforementioned aren’t the actions of someone who cares only for the crown, because if he did he would have distanced himself as much as possible from his wife and the legacy of her father and mother. His extravagant reaction to her death and her obsequitious funeral is probably the only reason she is even remembered at all today. There’s still more I can say but here have some pieces of trivia which are more rarely considered as fodder for this ship. I mean sure, I can’t prove it was a great love match, but I stand by the belief that no one living today can prove beyond reasonable doubt that any two people 5 centuries ago were in love. However, the pieces of trivia against the factual picture taken as a whole makes it for me as true a ship/OTP as any other historical pairing.

[wonder-worker]

"If anonymity was required [for reconnaissance and espionage] the woman going about her business, between markets, was the perfect messenger. The Compaignon's news was taken to Lille by a female courier. Writing to the English government on the eve on a projected Scottish invasion Sir William Bulmer was interrupted by the arrival of the wife of one of his spies who had come because 'hir husband was suspect, so that he durst not come hyself. . .'. Equally, Sir William reported that among his spies in Scotland in 1523 he numbered one he called 'the Priores'. In the border war of intelligence it was reported, two years later, that the Scots had lost a female spy at Durham where she was captured and interrogated. There should be little surprise at this, for as Philippe Contamine points out women were much involved in medieval warfare and were employed as messengers and spies throughout the Hundred Years War. But again it is to Edward IV, and the great crisis of his reign, that we must turn. With Warwick and Clarence in France allying with Margaret of Anjou, the king sent Lady Isabel Neville one of her servants bearing an offer of peace. The woman's real business was to plead with Clarence not to be the ruin of his family, and to remind him of the deadly feud between York and Lancaster. Did he really take Warwick at his word when, having done homage to Henry VI's son, he said he would make Clarence king?* The choice of this woman was made because of her shrewdness and because she could gain access to her lady, and thus Clarence, quicker than any male agent."

-Ian Arthurson, "Espionage and Intelligence from the Wars of the Roses to the Reformation", Nottingham Medieval Studies (1991)

*The source for this is the memoirs of Philippe de Commynes, who later served in the French court and was very cognizant of espionage in contemporary politics and warfare. It's not proven or disproven by any other source.

[madonna-la-cardinalessa]

~ Philippe de Commynes:  Les memoires sur les principaux faicts et gestes de Louis onzieme et de Charles huitieme, son filz, roys de France (1524). Edited, with life and notes by Andrew R. Scoble, page 123.

@ducavalentinos I read that and had to think of you xD

[rivaltimes]

Dear aliens, to understand us, travel to the Middle Ages

Dear aliens, to understand us, travel to the Middle Ages

The wedding of Emperor Maximilian I and Duchess Maria of Burgundy, held in 1477, in an image from the ‘Memoirs of Philippe de Commynes’.DEA / G. DAGLI ORTI (De Agostini via Getty Images) Maybe you are a weirdo or a weirdo, a WEIRD, a person raised in a Western society (Western), educated (Educated), industrialized (Industrialized), wealthy (Rich) and democratic (Democratic). If such is the case,…