#Not explicitly zutara but…you know

[threalcrabbysamantha]

“My Lord, the Ambassador from the Southern Water Tribe has arrived -“

*Zuko’s out of his meeting so fast, a few people swear on their lives he disappeared*

[ecoterrorist-katara]

Zutara, romance novels, and the female gaze

Okay so I’ve been thinking about the female gaze a LOT so I checked out a subreddit about romance novels, despite never having read one. I came across this meme (which was initially a Tumblr post and then got posted to Instagram and then to Reddit and I’m now bringing back to Tumblr — Internet telephone, pls never change):

And…what is The Southern Raiders, if not a platonic grovel? Katara’s pain is central to the episode. It’s central to Zuko. Zuko asks Katara what he can do to make up for his betrayal; she demands the impossible. He reads between the lines, cockblocks her brother to get the necessary information, and then waits outside her door overnight (which he also did for Iroh, the one person we know for sure he loves). He basically makes himself a receptacle for her rage, and he holds space for her by coming with her on her revenge quest and carrying their bags and not saying a damn thing about what she should and should not do beyond like…asking her to rest. And obviously the grovel works! She forgives him and then they’re thick as thieves, bantering and fighting and saving each other’s lives, etc.

On a different note, I’ve been told that enemies to lovers is one of the biggest tropes in romance novels, similar to YA lit and fanfic. Here’s something else I found in the romance novel discourse:

And…yeah. In TSR, Katara really does show Zuko her worst self, because she doesn’t feel the need to perform for him. She doesn’t feel the need to perform moral perfection OR cold blooded vengeance. She bloodbends in front of him and he just goes with it. She doesn’t kill Yon Rha and he just goes with it. He doesn’t treat her any differently afterwards. Maybe they talk about it off screen, but I kind of like the idea that they don’t, because Katara doesn’t need to explain anything. And it’s so interesting, because some people in the ATLA fandom have a totally different read on TSR. They think Zuko was encouraging Katara to get revenge (by what, keeping his mouth shut?), and that Aang is the one who acts as her moral compass. I believe that either Bryan or Mike said in the DVD commentary that Aang is the angel on her shoulder the entire time. And this interpretation does make sense if you see it from the male gaze, where Katara as an object of affection is acting in an angry, irrational, threatening way. But if you see it from the female gaze, you recognize that actually it’s probably the most emotionally taxing experience Katara has to go through, and she doesn’t owe it to be nice or perfect to anybody. Katara’s formative trauma literally comes to a head, and she has to make a decision — no, a discovery — about who she is in relation to the tragedy that defines her life and even her identity (as a waterbender, as a parentified child who becomes the mom friend, as a genocide victim), and she’s accompanied by someone who trusts her judgement and validates her feelings.

I’m not saying TSR is explicitly romantically coded, but when it conforms so well to romance novel tropes…is it any wonder that so many people thought “yes this is her man?” And then he takes lightning in the heart for her and reaches for her when he’s literally dying, I will never be normal about that either

[theotterpenguin]

the performative accusation that shipping zutara (and occasionally this criticism is levied at jinko/zukka) is colonialist apologism has been addressed in some excellent posts, explaining the inaccuracies and problematic implications of this logic far better than i ever could - like this post and this one and this one and this one and this one.

and i know this topic has been talked about to death, but if you could indulge my contribution for a moment, i just find it interesting how this sentiment results from the cognitive dissonance of atla fans being unable to reconcile with the idea of their favorite show's political beliefs not lining up with their own.

atla is a largely philosophical children's show that at its core deals with themes of love, redemption, and destiny vs. free-will. atla examines these themes through an anti-colonalist, anti-imperalist lens that deconstructs the idea of racial divisiveness and the idea that people of different ethnicities are inherently different. this is message is pretty explicitly stated by guru pathik:

Guru Pathik: "The greatest illusion of this world is the illusion of separation. Things you think are separate and different are actually one and the same." Aang: "Like the four nations?" Guru Pathik: "Yes. We are all one people. But we live as if divided."

and also by uncle iroh:

"It is important to draw wisdom from many different places. If you take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale. Understanding others, the other elements and the other nations will help you become whole."

this theme is developed across three full seasons, with the crux of this message culminating in zuko's friendships with the gaang - despite coming from different nationalities and different backgrounds, they have all had their own experiences being hurt by the fire nation and work together to take down the oppressive fire nation government. the question of destiny vs. free will is also explored through zuko's character - despite starting off as an antagonist, he develops into a symbolic representation of how the fire nation's oppression hurts its own citizens. he unlearns the fire nation's imperialist propaganda while simultaneously unlearning his father's abuse. rather than following misguided beliefs of what he thought his destiny was as the heir to the throne, instead he forges his own path.

thus, to claim that zuko can never form a deep and meaningful relationship with any of the gaang because of his nationality goes unequivocally against the themes of the show. and a major part of this is because these are fictional characters being used to analyze different theoretical questions within the show and in some cases, are used as symbolic representations of different philosophical ideas - their friendships and their character arcs serve a purpose within the text that cannot be easily transcribed onto real-life dynamics between people.

it's illogical to criticize fans who are choosing to understand atla at the level of the themes that are presented by the text - who are interested in exploring similar philosophical questions brought up by the show through the context of relationships.

if you don't like the themes of forgiveness and redemption that atla explores, your criticism should be aimed at the writing of the show itself rather than other fans. because you are giving far more thought to the "implications" of a close friendship or romantic relationship between someone from an imperalist nation and someone from an oppressed nation than the writers ever did. (and if you fall in this camp of people, i would hope you wouldn't be reblogging fanart of zuko and the gaang together while simultaneously claiming zuko could can never escape the sins of his ancestors and can never form a deep relationship based on trust and intimacy with katara or sokka or jin - because that would just be hypocritical).

and as a side note, people seem to apply this flawed logic to zutara far more than other ships solely because the show spends the most time exploring the complicated nature of fire nation imperalism in the interactions between zuko and katara in the latter half of b3. this is because they've been juxtapositioned against each other and paralleled with aang since the beginning of the show in ways that toph, sokka, and suki are not, who have mostly been used to examine different themes. there simply isn't enough time to explore these complicated themes with all the other characters, even if they theoretically exist in zuko’s dynamics with these characters, so the writers focus the most on zuko's relationships with katara and aang, and these relationships are given far more narrative weight, so have more content to criticize. but zuko and katara also canonically become friends by the end of the show. if you want to discount the existence of their friendship, claiming that it will always be tainted by the fire nation's oppression regardless of what is shown in the text, then you also have to discount zuko's friendships with aang, suki, toph, and sokka - because even if this isn't shown as a permanent barrier to their friendships in the show, it’s also not shown as a permanent barrier to his friendship with katara. if your logic is solely based on the idea that a person's identity in a relationship as a colonizer or a victim is fixed and unchanging regardless of character development, this would apply to zuko's friendships with everyone else as well.

[starlight-bread-blog]

Why I No Longer Ship Zvtara

Warning: This is a very anti zvtara & pro kataang post. This is your chance to leave.

As some of you may know, I am (or rather was), a Zvtara shipper. But lately I've been shying away from the ship. A lot of the arguments I used to believe in, for me, don't hold water anymore. And given how vocal I was about shipping Zvtara, I feel like I owe you an explanation. In this post I will go through common pro Zvtara & anti kataang arguments and unpack why I can no longer support them in good faith. (I will kinda burn through them though, it's just that feel like I owe you this).

"Zvko and Katara's character arcs & characters are parallels"

This is interesting because I wrote an essay on this very subject, and I still stand by everything I said in the essay, but only as a platonic reading of it. See, A:TLA is full of parallels and symbolism. Zuko also has parallels with Aang, Katara has parallels with Azula, etc. In a show like this, the parallels between Zuko and Katara don't carry enough weight to justify some specialness. They have a great, incredibly well written relationship, but in my opinion, the extent of it can remain platonic without standing out.

"Tui and La represent Zvtara"

Tui and La are The Ocean and the Moon spirits and very explicitly represent Yin and Yang. I can't see Yin and Yang as Zutara for two reasons:

1) Yin is the moon, feminine and shade. The moon & feminine, that's Katara. But Yin is characterized by dark, wetness, cold, passivity, disintegration etc). Katara might have an edge, but she is not dark. Not to mention passive. And disintegration seems like the opposite of a waterbender. Katara fundamentally is not a Yin.

2) Yin and Yang is a dynamic. A self perpetuating dynamic of two opposites creating and controlling each other. Katara and Zuko never created each other. While you can argue that they control each other by being "capturing the avatar" vs "protecting the avatar", the only time this conflict of interest ever turned into a dynamic was in the north pole, and by then Zuko would go on a season long journey far away from Katara.

"Making Zvtara canon would be thematically cohesive"

I also wrote an essay on this subject, and just like my other essay, I still stand by a platonic reading of it. I even went back and edited it to make that reading more prominent. The thematic cohesion is already achieved through their platonic bond. In any show, naturally the relationships between characters are going to reflect the themes, that's just how writing works. It doesn't mean the relationship should be romantic. They already have a thematically cohesive relationship, making it a romantic one doesn't add anything.

"Aang idealizes Katara"

For context, there are some instances where Aang is dismissing Katara's anger. For example, in The Chase:

Toph: You're blaming me for this?

Katara tosses aside her sleeping bag and gestures with her hands, challenging Toph to move closer. Aang jumps in between the two.

Aang[Desperately.]: No! No, she's not blaming you.

Katara[Angrily.]: No, I'm blaming her!

Rather these instances reflect of idealization, or merely of Aang's peace seeking nature that's trying to de escalate the situation, is up to interpretation. I choose to interpret them as the latter, because of The Southern Raiders.

Katara: We're going to find the man who took my mother from me.

Sokka pauses and stands up, surprised.

Zuko: Sokka told me the story of what happened. I know who did it and I know how to find him.

Aang: Um ... and what exactly do you think this will accomplish?

A really common talking point in the Zvtara fandom is that Aang just assumes that Katara is going to murder her mother's killer, instead of simply confronting him. Either way, he knows\thinks she's talking about murder. If he'd idealized her, he'd make a different assumption.

"Kataang harms Aang's character arc"

This is referring to the dilemma presented to Aang in The Guru. He had to let go of his attachment to Katara in order to master the Avatar State. The assumption is that his chakra was blocked, therefore he didn't let go. I disagree. We see him open his seventh chakra right before Azula shoots lightning at him.

One might argue that nothing changed about Aang's relationship to Katara, so the dilemma rings hollow. But something did change, Aang was romantically braver than he was before. He got more confident. Compare his flirting from The Headbend (b3) to The Fortuneteller (b1). It's night and day. And if you ask me, this is the natural consequence of feeling less attached.

Furthermore, when he explains to the GAang why he couldn't master the Avatar State, he cites Azula's lightning as the reason:

Toph: So, what's your strategy for taking him down? Gonna get your glow on and hit him with a little Avatar State action? Aang: I can't. When Azula shot me with lightning, my seventh chakra was locked, cutting off my connection to all the cosmic energy in the universe.

He couldn't master the Avatar State because of Azula's lightning, not because of his attachment to Katara. (I heard some people say this was confirmed that Aang was still attached, but I'm a big believer in Death of the Author so I don't really care if it's true).

"Kataang was one sided"

The general consensus in the Zvtara fandom is that Kataang is framed from Aang's perspective, and while the show teases us about Katara's feelings to create a "will they get together or won't they" tension. But can all of these hints really be contextualized that way? Some can, others, not so much. For example, Katara is show to be jealous of Aang in The Headbend when he dances with On Ji, and when they dance she gives him a loving look; in The Cave of Two Lovers, Katara smiles when she suggested they should kiss, and she blushes at the end of the episode. All of these moments cannot be swept under the rug in favor of a reveal that Katara didn't love Aang.

"Katara passing herself as Aang's mom is maternal"

I never really understood this argument, if I'm being completely honest. For two reasons:

1) In Howl's Moving Castle, Sophie works as Howl assistant and falls in love with him, but she's cursed, looking like an old lady. There's a scene where she too has to pretend to be his mom, and it turns into her realizing her feelings towards him. She becomes young again, a girl Howl's age. It's a beautiful confession, while pretending to be his mom. No one criticized that, becuase pretending to be someone's mom for the sake of a mission isn't maternal.

2) Sokka is also there. I don't think it's controversial to say Sokka isn't at all a parental figure to Aang. That's because the point of this joke isn't that Katara actually is motherly towards Aang, it's that they aren't actually similar to [Aang]'s supposed parents and this entire situaton is very silly. The implication behind this joke isn't that Katara is maternal towards Aang, but that she isn't.

SO! That's all I'm covering. Now, I hope I can put this subject to rest and discuss the many other great aspects of A:TLA.

[lovegrowsart]

tui & la, yin & yang, and zuko & katara (+aang)

okay. i'm not interested in shipping slapfights, but i came across a specific pro-k/a argument and my mind simply won't let me rest until i write these thoughts down, so here's some meta about zutara symbolism and how, even if it was bryke's intention or retcon or whatever tf, symbolism related to complementary and interconnected opposites and balance, simply doesn't work with k/a's canon relationship dynamic.

first of all, the argument i saw that tui and la in the show are somehow not meant to be taken as yin and yang (or at the very least a representation of it) is... a very interesting one, considering they're designed to look exactly like the yin yang symbol, and koh literally describes them as such. he isn't just bringing up yin & yang because tui and la are, like, similar to them? but because that's what they are.

koh says tui and la are push and pull (the literal translation of tui and la from chinese) to describe what they are, and then says they are good and evil, life and death, yin and yang, to furthur describe the inherent nature of their relationship. this is a kid's show. the symbolism is meant to be this easy to parse. who is watching the koi fish merge into the literal yin yang symbol, quite possibly one of the most recognisable symbols in the entire world, and thinking "oh, but they're not really meant to be yin & yang!"? some k/a shippers, apparently.

now, you might say, but yin & yang aren't good and evil? isn't that a simplification or misconception of the concept? and yes, actually, i would agree with you, good and evil isn't exactly how i would describe yin & yang to someone (though there are schools of thought that do assign a moral dimension to yin & yang!), but if i was writing, again, a kid's show and wanted to get my point across with simple yet evocative language about the relationship between these two spirits symbolised by an complex and abstract real life spiritual and philosophical concept, i can see how "good and evil" works to explain yin (la) as negative and yang (tui) as positive. the text and visual language of the show intentionally links the ideas inherent to yin & yang to tui and la. you can't just retroactively separate them because you want tui & la to represent k/a, but you know that doesn't work if they're yin & yang because canon k/a just doesn't fit with that kind of symbolism.

the k/a argument that tui & la represent katara and aang just fundamentally doesn't work with how both are presented in the show. tui (the moon) is the white koi fish - the light side, representing yang, which is active, masculine, postive, fire etc. la is the black koi fish (the ocean) - the dark side, representing passivity, feminine, negative, water etc.

katara as the moon and aang as the ocean just doesn't map onto the specific symbolism evoked by how tui & la are presented visually and thematically in the show. tui & la are specifically described to balance each other, which just... isn't how k/a's canon dynamic is written. "aang gets angry like the ocean spirit and katara as the moon spirit pulls him back and calms him down" isn't how i would write or describe a balanced relationship, it's what i would call katara being aang's emotional crutch for three seasons with little support in return to "balance" them. k/a's canon dynamic is notably imbalanced, so if even symbolism pertaining to balance was meant to represent their relationship, bryke and the writers did a pretty piss poor job of making that symbolism present in their actual relationship. it's also a complete mischaracterisation of the yin & yang symbolism that is, again, explicitly tied into tui & la per the text and visual language of the show. not only is "katara and aang balance each other and when they're apart, they act recklessly and have to pull each other back from the brink" a reading of their relationship not particularly supported by the text of the show, that's also just... not how tui & la/yin & yang are actually characterised in the show or in real life.

furthermore, the argument that "good and evil" as it relates to tui & la and yin & yang doesn't work for z/k because "zuko isn't evil in the end" or "katara isn't evil at all" completely misses the forest for the trees in how the symbolism ties into the show's overarching themes and z/k's relationship specifically. the storytelling here is much more metaphorical and psychological than it is literal.

the whole point of yin & yang is that they are interconnected opposites, simultaneous unity and duality - zuko is as capable of bad as he is of good, and in turn, so is katara. this is true of every other person and character, of course, but zuko and katara specifically have important story beats in their respective arcs where they are shown the "light side" (zuko learning from the dragons) and "dark side" (katara learning bloodbending) of their respective elements (and their elements only compound their yin & yang symbolism, since fire and water are regarded as physical/natural manifestions of the yin & yang cosmological cycle). one of the most notable story beats of katara's arc is when she explores her "dark side" by going after yon rha (ymmv on how "dark" that really is, but i'm going with how the show presents this part of katara's journey), which is something the other members of the gaang (besides zuko ofc) don't really go through in their arcs - aang, sokka, and toph aren't written to confront the duality of their nature, their worldview, their moral character, their bending, the way that zuko and katara are.

part of me is struggling to even explain this because it's just, idk, really obvious to me. zuko and katara are fire and water, "evil" and "good" (they literally face off in the b1 and b2 finales! either of their literal and actual morality isn't actually all that relevant to how the symbolism works), of course they're yin & yang? and since tui & la are how yin & yang in the atla universe is presented to the audience, then that means they are tui & la too (symbolically, obviously, not literally).

yin & yang fundamentally transform each other the way zuko and katara do. for every advance, there's a retreat; for every rise, there's a fall. book 1; zuko falls, katara rises. book 2; katara falls, zuko rises. book 3; zuko falls, katara rises. you rise with the moon, i rise with the sun. an eternal dance as the both of them learn and grow and confront their own false dichotimies, learning how a world of seemingly opposing and contrary forces is, in fact, interconnected and interdependent.

like. c'mon.

[burst-of-iridescent]

You constantly portray Katara (in your posts and in your "dissertation") like some damsel in distress who is in a codependent relationship and does not defend her opinion in front of her partner, to the point that she allows him to mistreat her children. But the basis of her character is that she will never tolerate any shit from anyone. She always defends her opinion, and she does not oppose Aang precisely because their values are basically the same with Aang. You cannot agree with this, because then you would either have to admit that Aang is not the terrible person you paint him, or that Katara is not the perfect girl you want her to be. That is why you are forced to humiliate her and completely rewrite her character, just not to admit that she is in an equal relationship with Aang and their values coincide.

In addition, such a "katara" makes even less sense for zutara, because if her character has a tendency to codependence on her partner and a willingness to tolerate shit from him, then their relationship with Zuko would not be healthy, since Zuko is prone to self-pity, selfishness and outbursts of anger even after his redemption and he does not show even a tenth of the maturity that Aang has by the end of the show (and even if you do not agree with this, I hope you understand that if there is a tendency to codependent relationships in a person's character, then this tendency is realized in any relationship, regardless of the partner. And any such relationship will be unhealthy).

well i lost braincells reading this so i expect reparations for that, but i'm in a nice, salty mood today so... sure anon, i'll bite.

She always defends her opinion, and she does not oppose Aang precisely because their values are basically the same with Aang.

you must really dislike katara, because saying that the only reason she never challenged aang is because she never disagreed with him, rather than that her idealization of him blinded her to his flaws is... so much worse. are you telling me she thought it was right for him to recklessly burn her? or yell at her in the desert and abandon her to take care of sokka and toph alone? or kiss her without her consent? or give their airbending child preferential treatment over their other two children?

because katara doesn't hold aang to account for any of the things on that (non-exhaustive) list, and if your explanation for that is that she agreed with him, then we both know who here is really bastardizing katara's character.

do katara and aang share certain core values? sure. they're both kind, compassionate and hopeful people. but saying that katara's morals are "basically the same" as aang's is objectively untrue when they clash in both the southern raiders and sozin's comet over their personal moral codes on the sanctity of life and whether taking one can ever be justified.

neither of these conflicts are ever truly resolved, even by the end of the show. katara and aang never come to any sort of understanding or middle ground, or even raise the subject ever again, despite it being clear that they don't share the same perspective. katara even explicitly rejects aang's creed of blanket forgiveness by stating that she did not forgive yon rha and never will. i don't know about you, but that feels like a pretty major difference of opinion to me.

additionally, the fact that these are the only two times in the entire show that katara actually pushes back against aang's beliefs and decisions - and stands firm on it - proves my point, because she's only able to do so when she has absolutely no other choice. it's only the trauma of her mother's murder and the literal fate of the entire world that forces katara to challenge aang rather than excuse and coddle him. and that is unhealthy both for aang and katara, because an equal partner should be able to call you out on your flaws and mistakes without first having to be backed into a corner to do it.

That is why you are forced to humiliate her and completely rewrite her character, just not to admit that she is in an equal relationship with Aang and their values coincide.

i really adore this recent trend in atla fandom of insisting that it's zutara shippers who are responsible for adultifying katara or humiliating katara or any and all problems that exist within katara's narrative as if we personally wrote the show instead of just... pointing out what already exists in canon.

i'm not the one who robbed katara of all agency in her relationship, or refused to give her arc equal narrative space with aang's, or turned her into a subservient trophy wife with no legacy or voice. you can go take that up with the creators.

believe me anon, i wish i could manipulate canon for my nasty zutara agenda, but alas you can't have everything in life.

Zuko is prone to self-pity, selfishness and outbursts of anger even after his redemption and he does not show even a tenth of the maturity that Aang has by the end of the show

zuko didn't throw a hissy fit because the girl he liked didn't like him back, pressure her for an answer, force a kiss on her, or be preachy and judgemental towards her during one of the most difficult times of her life - but hey, whatever floats your boat.

(thank you for providing no evidence, by the way. saved me a ton of time reading more batshit insane misinterpretations of canon, or lies, or both.)

In addition, such a "katara" makes even less sense for zutara, because if her character has a tendency to codependence on her partner and a willingness to tolerate shit from him, then their relationship with Zuko would not be healthy I hope you understand that if there is a tendency to codependent relationships in a person's character, then this tendency is realized in any relationship, regardless of the partner.

i'm genuinely bamboozled as to why you seem to think that i called katara codependent, because i didn't. i don't think katara and aang are codependent, and i have never once said that. but i understand that sending anonymous, bad-faith arguments is a difficult, underappreciated job, so let's take the hypothetical and assume i did to help you out.

fictional characters are not real people, and so it is possible for them to have different dynamics with different characters. that's why i can ship taang or zutara or mailee but not kat.aang or mai.ko. because each of these relationships are written to fulfil different narrative purposes, the characters involved are not doomed to repeat the same patterns of behaviour in each relationship as real people might be - and the difference between the zutara and kat.aang interactions in canon proves it.

[leorai4life]

I'm realising that my main OTPs are all characters who have never been explicitly confirmed to be together lol

Leorai - basically canon, but we never got any kisses or hugs like the other couples in 2012 did. Enemies to lovers with a purely emotionally intimate connection. They will stab you cutely if you hurt their beloved~

Zutara - enemies to lovers vibes, ferociously protective of one another, badass fighting duo. They never became canon, ofc, but their romantic chemistry and emotional intimacy was off the charts.

Shadouge - started off as 2 people only looking out for themselves and focused on one goal (revenge, jewels) but the longer they were around each other the more vulnerable they became with one another. Would trust each other with their goddamn life.

Royai - they're basically married, your honour. Know each other's body language off by heart, would follow the other to hell and back, would rather die than live in a world without one another.

They all just give off soft "I will protect you and care for you even though you could do it yourself" vibes. I guess I just love badasses who are also the most emotionally intimate pairings you'll ever meet <3

[the-badger-mole]

A Kya lived (but with some serious burns) AU.

Katara's relationship with the other characters?

In what way would this also affect Sokka?

Aang accidentally burning Katara?

Yon-Rha being alive or not,and Zuko and Katara hunting him down.

Depending on what ripple effect Kya being alive has on the series, what other changes do you think would impact things going forward?

Do you think kat*anng would still happen or zutara?

To answer your last question first, Kataang shouldn't have happened in general, so, no they absolutely don't happen here.

This would've been an extremely traumatic event for Kya, and I think she would become very protective of Katara. Sokka would have a complicated relationship with it because on the one hand, he'd get it, and he'd be very protective of Katara too (even more than he was in the show). On the other hand, I think it would very much read as favoritism to him, and he'd probably pull some very dangerous and stupid stunts in order to get his mother to fear for his life like she does for Katara's. I think instead of being sent off with well wishes, Katara would have to sneak away, and Sokka would come with her to protect her.

I think Zuko seeing the burns that Kya suffered would give him pause. He would still try to go in with all his bluster and bravado, but it would be a sight that would startle him. I think it would change the dynamic when he confronted Katara (does Katara get Kya's necklace here? I don't know. I could see it go either way). He might appeal to her desire to end the war instead, promising that once he got home and took back his rightful place, he'd make ending the war his priority so no one would have to suffer like Kya. His arc would then be centered on trying to reconcile what he knows of his father with his own hopes for how the war would end. I don't know if they still go after Yon Rah. I don't think it would have the same impact, to be honest. I think Katara's mother would be what bridges the gap between them still, but I think instead of focusing on their mutual loss, Katara would find out explicitly how Zuko got his scar and why. They would still connect over maternal sacrifices, but also the scars.

Katara, I think, would be the biggest change. I think she'd be a less maternal figure and less inclined to play caregiver to the people around her (which is part of the reason I don't think Kataang would happen). Her anger would be a lot more apparent because not only did her mother sacrifice herself for Katara, she treated her like she was too vulnerable to be let out into the world on her own (this version of Katara would probably have an easier time connecting with Toph, tbh). I think any attempts of people trying to protect her or tell her she can't do something would be met with much more force. Her fight with Pakku would've been much more feral and unhinged because I think she'd actually be out for blood. Like for real, for real. And her stint as the Painted Lady would probably end with a few dead soldiers. I see Zutara not only happening in this version of the story, but happening way sooner because Katara's anger would be easier for Zuko to see and understand, and then connect with. I think her pain and anger would hurt him for her sake, too. Getting to know her would make him finally understand everything Iroh was trying to do for him, and he would in turn try to be that for Katara. In the end, they'd both wind up helping each other find peace.

Also, as for what happened when Aang burned Katara? He'd have gotten a double barrel of anger from the siblings. Sokka would possibly lay hands on him, and Katara would resent him for not taking any of his learning opportunities seriously. I think Katara in this version would be much more militant (a reason why I don't think Aang would have a crush on her in this scenario to begin with). This episode would see him getting thee crap scared out of him, and possibly set him down the path of understanding just how badly the war needs to be ended.

[zvtara-was-never-canon]

What do you think of people saying “Kataang had a downward spiral in book 3.”?

I saw that video called “get in losers we’re stanning zutara.”that claimed that, along with many other people who are anti Kataang.

"The people who ship the two characters that barely interacted the entire show and hated each other for 90% of it think Kataang not always agreeing means the ship is having a downwards spiral" And? Why should we care?

I genuinely don't see how anyone could think book 3 Kataang was bad. Literally my one criticism of it is the forced Ember Island drama that so clearly only existed because of that stupid rule of "Main couple can't get together until the last second of the last episode". There were so many sweet, meaningful and even ICONIC moments happen that season.

Aang staring at Katara in awe when he learns that she literally brought him back from the dead. Katara making it very clear through her talk with Hakoda that she doesn't WANT to separated from the people she loves (bringing closure to Aang's Guru conflict).

THE HEADBAND DANCE AFTER KATARA IS JEALOUS THAT AANG IS GETTING SO MUCH ATTENTION FROM OTHER GIRLS!!!!!!

Aang immediately crushing on the Painted Lady and helping Katara blow up a factory. "You're my forever girl." The kiss before the invasion and Katara cuddling up with him after it. Katara trusting Aang's instincts when he says he wants Zuko to teach him firebending but it only happening after she gave him the greenlight because her opinion is everything to him.

KATARA THREATENING TO MURDER ZUKO IF HE EVER HURTS AANG AGAIN!!!

Aang letting Katara take Appa, one of the last connections he has with his pacifist culture, on a mission to kill someone (which he fundamentally disagrees with) simply because she needs to go on that journey and he KNOWS Katara will eventually realize, on her own, that she's not killer. Katara explicitly telling Aang that she doesn't think of him as a little brother she has to take care of.

KATARA CHOOSING TO KISS AANG AND BE HIS GIRLFRIEND IN A SCENE DELIBERATELY ANIMATED TO LOOK LIKE A COUPLE KISSING AT THEIR WEDDING!!!!!!

If that's a downward spiral, what does a winning-streak look like? Them still being together in every other post-show material that came out through the years, and being confirmed to have spent decades married, and having kids and grandkids?

Oh wait, they did that too, my bad.

Seriously, even before I grew to like Kataang as a ship, I would have been OVERJOYED if some of my non-canon and/or non-endgame ships in literally ANYTHING got even HALF the good moments Kataang had in book 3. Downwards spiral my ass, motherfuckers are just jealous.

[sokkastyles]

This is something I've turning around in my mind due to the general discourse around Katara "hating" Zuko, and obviously she doesn't hate him at all after TSR, but do you think she truly even /hated/ him after Ba Sing Se? She was absolutely within her right to be hurt and angry about his choice, and I'm glad the show actually let her hold onto that for awhile b/c so often K has to be the bigger person and manage everyone else's emotions, but being hurt and angry at someone, even lashing out at them b/c of that, isn't the same thing as hating them imo. Like tbh their entire vibe to me from the moment Zuko turns up at the Western Air Temple until TSR is exes after a bad breakup but there's still unresolved feelings there, which was certainly an interesting writing choice for them to go with (only made more so by the textbook romance writing grovelling in TSR.)

Yeah, she isn't mad at him because she hates him, she's mad at him because she cares about him, because she wanted to care about him, and because she thought he cared about her. Even when she tells the gaang that Zuko was "pretending to be a human being" in the catacombs, it gives the impression that she is trying to convince herself that what she's saying is true, that the moment they shared and the vulnerability Zuko showed in that moment wasn't real.

The other thing that gives the lie to the idea that Katara hates Zuko or just sees him as an enemy is that when she confronts him when they are alone, and threatens him, she doesn't react to him like she thinks he's lying about wanting to do the right thing, she confronts him about how "you and I both know you've struggled with doing the right thing in the past." In front of everyone else, she makes it seem like she thinks Zuko is just evil, but when she's alone with him, she makes it clear that she knows he isn't, and that this is really about how she can't trust him, how he broke her trust. It's personal, not just about him being fire nation.

And the fact that she waited to tell him this in private, while denying her feelings in public, is absolutely romantic coded. I've also pointed out before that the framing of the confrontation mirrors the final scene between Zuko and Mai (or rather, that the Zuko and Mai scene, which is explicitly romantically coded, mirrors this one), Katara standing in the doorway to interrupt Zuko's triumphant moment with a reminder that his past isn't so easily moved past, and a reminder of who he's hurt. It absolutely gives vibes of an ex who you still have feelings for.

Which is why it's hilarious that Bryke made that comment about zutara being a relationship you experience before realizing what you really need (with the implication that Katara really needs Aang and Zuko really needs Mai), because what it actually feels like is two people who were immediately drawn to each other, ended up hurting each other, broke it off, but then still had feelings for each other and ended the series closer than they were before. If Bryke really wanted us to think zutara were not good for each other, then there could have been a moment where, when Zuko and Katara get their closure with each other, there's also the G-rated equivalent of "let's just be friends." Maybe have Katara say something like, "I forgive you, but I can't make the choice you want me to make." This is also in an alternate universe where Zuko more explicitly encourages Katara to kill Yon Rah. But none of that happens. The episode does not tell us that Zuko is not good for Katara or vice versa. It has Katara end the episode by explicitly disagreeing with Aang and enthusiastically embracing Zuko without any hesitation at all.

That hug is so meaningful because it's the release of tension that the narrative has been building up since that moment in the catacombs. It's not that Katara hated Zuko but now cares about him, it's that she wanted to care about him way back in the catacombs and now she's able to express that without being afraid that he'll break her trust.

[longing-for-rain]

Just so you know, some of your anons are coming from a blog called @mal3vol3nt

I do not know if you’re aware, but she’s chronically obsessed with you and has also been sharing your ao3 on Twitter and inciting harassment there too, saying you’re “racist” and a “degenerate” and accusing you of writing underage. Her blog lately is mainly posts about you and it sounds very similar to some of your anons

I had to check this out for myself and...wow. All I can say is just...wow 🤣

No, I actually had no idea who this person was but from the looks of it she's been obsessed with me for months? I guess that explains the anons, I knew these people were mad, but apparently they've been over here steaming over my takes and are legitimately terrified of me. And I didn't even know them! Didn't realize I've been doing numbers on Twitter (or X whatever it is now) despite never having an account.

(The rest is below; please don't click if you do not wish to see insensitive discussions of rape or if you are not in the mood to read opinions so malformed they will melt your brain)

I guess I have another angry little troll who doesn't know what a captial letter is obsessed with me. Wish I could say it was the first time, but alas. A lot of particularly funny things here though.

> Advertising your terrible ragebait Twitter like anyone finds you important

Lmao.

> "write fanfiction of katara being raped so zuko can save her"

What a terrible misread of the point of that story, but then again, I don't expect much else from a terminally online crybaby who exclusively consumes media for children. If you can't handle adult discussions about adult topics, maybe don't read stories that are clearly marked 18+ and with far more extensive trigger warnings than any mainstream media will give you.

> "measuring the size of her breasts and hips"

Lmao. I said she is drawn differently in different scenes. That's it. You guys are another level of unhinged.

> "obviously fetishes and racism"

It's kind of creepy how they sexualize Zutara, while simultaneously accusing us of doing that. Why do you assume a fetish is the only reason behind someone liking a ship? Why would you say this about a group of people including many black, brown, and indigenous women? And minors? And if you want to get into the whole fetish thing, don't even get me started on the shit I've seen from the kataang fandom. Hint: when I say some of you have a "mommy fetish" I mean it in a very literal sense. Not to mention the whole kataang rape discord debacle.

> "sick fantasies about these minor characters"

I have never depicted a minor in a sexual situation. I make a point to explicitly avoid doing that, and all characters are depicted as adults. Your lack of media literacy isn't an argument. If you're going to criticize my writing, at least read it, which you clearly didn't. And if the content is too upsetting for you, you clearly lack the maturity to engage in these kinds of discussions.

Imagine treating ship discourse this seriously, actually unhinged. Who said that Ember Island Players is the real Katara? What? She talks a big number about coke-fueled rants, must have given it a try herself. How do you expect to be taken seriously when you never say anything of substance and screech "racism" or "colonizer" every other word but can't even articulate the significance of those terms? Honestly, at this point you sound like a right-winger who thinks saying "but I'm [identity] and I agree with [opinion]" is a golden ticket to winning every argument.

And look at this: apparently I deserved all the things she and her friends sent me? Actually I respect this take, at least she's honest about it unlike the people who cry and backpeddle when they get caught red-handed.

I'm actually cackling at this one. Genuinely laughing; my neighbors are probably concerned. It's like you took every single Bad Person Allegation and threw it into a blender. And to top it all off, apparently 24 is "pushing 30" now LMAO. And apparently I, a lesbian, could only possibly like Zutara because I think Zuko is hot. Not to mention the way they entirely miss the point of Zutara, but ATLA itself, by insisting that Zuko is a "violent imperialist" who is apparently unworthy of love by anyone who does not share his skin tone. Kind of ironic coming from the people crying that I'm a racist who doesn't understand the show. Next level clownery.

This is so funny. These people are absolutely terrified of me, no amount of unhinged anons will hide that. It's fine for men to tell me I deserve rape and death, that I'm a dirty pervert for daring to speak out about sexual trauma, and that women's sexual trauma is nothing but a fetish, but if I respond to that man telling him he should die for being so disrespectful and misogynistic to rape victims, I'm the monster? I stand by it. If you think what he said about rape and rape victims is acceptable, especially if you're a man, die! Hang from ropes, as I said.🥰

I guess I should be really scared though. This is clearly a very influential figure in the fandom who is renowned for her enlightened wisdom on the plight of fictional cartoon characters against evil imperialists like me (adult with job).

...oh wait. I was excited for a minute, I thought I was dealing with a celebrity. But even the "callouts" struggle to hit 20 notes :/

And to everyone sending me positivity during this time, thank you very much! But I wanted to show you this to assure you I'm doing just fine. People can act as weird as they want behind a gray face, but after seeing the kinds of whiny little brats they are in reality, it's pretty hard to take it seriously. "I got my plane ticket" my ass, that would require you to leave your decaying, trash-filled apartment.

[olderthannetfic]

https://www.tumblr.com/olderthannetfic/750768261479694336/yeah-cultural-appropriation-is-a-little-bit

Take my words with a heap of salt, because I didn't read the actual book. All I did was watch some long videos and reading a few reviews. But like, some authors can fuck up even when they're writing about their own culture.

Anyways, I want to rip the author of To Gaze Upon a Wicked God to shreds. She's of Chinese descent, but I honestly felt like she was just exploiting our people's history for "cool" and "novel" plot points for profit. She wrote a fucking colonizer romance between a traitor Chinese assassin and the prince of the invading nation whose idea of peace is to subjugate China without genocide. I guess that makes him better than ✨ the other ones ✨

And before someone rightfully ask if I'm reading too much into it or if I'm misinterpreting anything, they explicitly marketed the book as a "Zutara inspired enemies to lover romance based on the Russian/Japanese invasion of Machuria." She namedrops Unit 731 as an inspiration. You know, the human experimentation base, one of the most horrific crimes against humanity, a permanent scar that won't heal right because Japan insists on never acknowledging its war crimes? Oh, btw, the male lead created the in universe equivalent of Unit 731. Yeah, the love interest.

The whole thing is set in an alternate universe where "Chinese people" aka the Panguians never developed technology because ~magic~ and they fought with bows and arrows because ~magic~ This au version of China, which has no modern weapon and NO MEDICINE is supposed to be Qing China? This really annoys me because she was writing for a primarily western audience, and this weak, infantilized, orientalised mess is already how they picture China during the invasion of foreign forces. Like, I would not be nearly as annoyed if the author herself didn't specify that she was writing about that time period. I actually like orientalism in small doses, it can be aesthetic.

Apparently the marketing surrounding the book is pivoting hard because of the negative reviews coming out. Now, they're acting like the male lead wasn't supposed to be the love interest. The real love interest is her childhood friend of course. Like girl, bffr, you said it yourself it's enemies to lovers and your mc literally just fell in love with the prince while she was being ordered to kill the leaders of her own people.

Last time I was this baffled by the tone-deafness of a Chinese creator vis-à-vis the Century of Humiliation was in 2013, when Ringdoll came out with Hayato the Imperial Japanese soldier bjd

--

But you haven't read the book...

Look, anything in the het booktok giant background of expensive hardcovers with their spines facing the wall because the pages have a design space is not of interest to me. It all sounds tedious.

But even before the marketing pivot, it was clear that a lot of people were going on hearsay and that the author's comments about Unit 731 were at least a bit more nuanced than the game of telephone that resulted.

I'm with you that genetics don't prevent an author from writing a shitty book, but can someone who's actually read this thing weigh in?

Does it seem like the enemy prince was the original real love interest, or was that early marketing nonsense and he was probably originally intended as a fakeout?

[ae-neon]

can we even really call rhysta a crackship if they’re two characters who have interacted a lot? in my mind a crackship is characters that barely/never interact. in another fandom they wouldn’t be a crackship. like zutara, alinaxdarkling idk the ship name, dramione aren’t considered crackships.

Yep, they're kinda strict, but rhysta is really just a rare pair. They're gonna see the ships you mentioned in your ask and strongly disagree but I know what you meant anon <3

Ppl in this fandom act like shipping characters who are not explicitly romantically involved or who don't like each other is straight up sacrilegious

Maybe it's because of the mating bond being so important to many people in the fandom?

Or that acomaf was largely considered sjms best book for years and years?

Or that there's already this sort of divide among the fandom when it comes to Nesta vs F.eysand/ the IC?

So both sides have slightly warped perceptions of each other to the point where they can't imagine a world where the two characters could end up together. That's fine. No one is forcing them to read or write it.

The problem is they don't want it to exist because they don't like it or can't see it happening. That's not up to them.

Some argue that it couldn't happen without leading to a relationship that's worse than canon so there's no point, or that if it ends up a dark story it's hypocritical of the author to complain about canon then write a toxic relationship for a fic

Which I think is funny because fanfics can be much darker than canon, fanfics are not being marketed and sold as YA romance while romanticising abusive behaviour, fanfics can whatever the author wants it to.

For example: theres a very easy way to write the UtM dubcon to CoN con storyline without changing much that I wouldn't bat an eye at if the genre I wanted to write was adult dark romance

But acomaf is not an adult dark romance. And it doesn't matter if her publishers forced the genre change, sjm knew it was gonna be YA in the end, so it's ultimately her responsibility to then fix it

That's why it's actually very easy to go from criticising canon or suggesting that an alternative ship would have worked better for a YA romance to then writing a toxic or dark version of that same ship

Fanfics can literally reset the world or characters without retcons and inconsistencies. It can be whatever we want it to be

Anyways, tangent aside, yea rhysta is not a crackship except in the way that most people think it's shippers are on crack

[azulas-daddy-kink]

I know dunking on Zutarians is fun and all, but can we please talk about Tyzulaians? Cause they are almost as delusional, if not more than, Zutarians. Maybe they might have been friends when they were kids, but all of Ty Lee's interactions with Azula in the show are clearly that of someone deathly afraid of their superior snapping, and therefore kissing ass much as possible. For fucks sake, the advice Ty Lee gives to Azula during that Ember Island party in regards to getting boys is what she uses to placate her. And even though basically every single piece of post-Sozin's Comet media has all but said that she loathes Azula to the point that she eventually overcame her fear of her so she could hunt her down, Tyzulaians still cling to their ship.

And have you seen the ridiculous handwaving they do in regards to Azula's dream world showing her have a male love interest? I've even seen edits on TikTok where they blurred out Ruon-Jian.

Also, just like Zutarians like to call anyone who disagrees with their ship racist and sexist, among other things, Tyzulaians call anyone who disagrees with their ship lesbophobic, even if the person doing the criticism are queer themselves.

I know that Zutarians have engaged in mass delusion ever since Korra made their ship explicitly fanon, but I really wonder what is going to happen once we get hard confirmation that neither Ty Lee or Azula are queer, or if or both them are, Tyzula is not thing on one or both of their parts? Especially in regards to Azula stans that are also hard-core Tyzula shippers considering the current comics writer got death threats by a crazed Azula stan that made her wary of writing a comic involving Azula for quite sometime?

Yes, please, Anon!

I am always down to call out the toxic Tyzula shippers, and have done so on this blog several times.

I've seen everything you're talking about more times than I can count. The lesbophobia accusations, the copium, and essentially gaslighting themselves into believing their ship is/was canon and that Azula is 100% a lesbian.

Just today, I witnessed them claiming that SOKKLA is a self-insert ship beloved by men who identify with Sokka. Probably the worst case of projection I've ever encountered in this fandom, considering Tyzula shippers are pretty much all just baby gays self-inserting as either Azula or Ty Lee (usually Ty Lee). From what I've seen, Sokkla shippers are mostly women so we're definitely not inserting ourselves as Sokka lol nonsensical.

"Just write a self-insert, you cowards!" - decries a discord user named "Azula kisses women". Absolute clown shoes.

Their favorite thing to do though, aside from going out of their way to bully people who like other ships, is deny canon by saying Azula's interest in Chan was "comphet". Yes, comphet is a real thing but can we be honest with ourselves and say that was not the intent of the writers? No one was gay in a 2005 children's cartoon. And even if Chan was comphet, where does the supposed interest in women come in? If anything, this is an argument for her being asexual or aromantic, because Azula has never shown romantic interest of any kind toward another girl.

But when you criticize this and point out the obvious flaws, they again just say you're lesbophobic, which is their go-to when someone doesn't agree with them.

Honestly, at this point they are just as bad as Zutara shippers, if not worse. And you know why they're acting this way? They're losing and they know it. Sokkla grows stronger by the day, has the best fics and art, and a thriving, supportive community. They're lashing out because they feel threatened... which is actually insane, considering neither ship is canon, and shipping isn't a contest. It's supposed to be fun! Tyzula shippers are straight up ruining the Azula fandom with their toxicity.

[atla-confessions]

"What's actually sexist and heteronormative..."

1. I pointed out that it was one zutarian that said that. 2. You're mistaking the forest for the trees, I listed three examples I had seen recently of an ongoing pattern that I have seen since I entered the fandom. 3. You cannot seriously look me in the eye and say no zutarian has ever used the "women would write/want zutara" as either implicit or explicit reasoning for why zutara is 'better'. 4. Not what heteronormative means.

5. The thing that actually bothered me: The point I made wasn't "men and women don't write differently" it was, as I said earlier, this kind of reasoning is often said and used as a reason for why zutara is a good or even a better ship, or it has been anytime I've seen it. The reason I said I don't think a woman would have written zutara is because I think everyone is individualistic and to say 'women' would write something seems almost sexist to me, as though women don't have different opinions and some like ships like zutara, while others like ships like kataang.

But hey, if you really think someone saying that is just them pointing out that men and women write differently, then they're just straight up wrong because if a woman wrote atla, if literally anyone but bryke wrote atla, zutara as we know it would not be endgame because Zuko and Katara wouldn't be the characters they are, if they existed at all. Everything would be affected by someone other then the bryke or the atla team writing it. It would be a different story. It wouldn't be 'atla but Katara gets with Zuko instead of Aang'. And this isn't because men and women write differently, this is because everyone writes differently and this story is unique to bryke, but even like, if bryke were both women, I agree with you, I do think atla would still be a different story in some ways, but I think the core elements, including the core ships, would be maintained. Kataang is not the product of men writing a ship, it's the product of bryke writing a ship.

But idk, maybe saying that writing choices are more dependant on an individual then a gender is sexist.

My point was simply that I have uncomfortably often seen things that have been either implicitly or explicitly sexist toward men from zutara shippers. Are zutarians as a whole sexist? Of course not. I like to believe most zutarians are chill and just like a ship. I just have yet to see any other shipping community that has linked their ship so hard with a gender. Again, like female toothbrushes.

X

[tickledpink31]

A thought about Princess Yue from the Live Action AtLA

So, I did watch all 8 episodes of Netflix's Avatar just to give it a fair chance. I went in thinking that this is obviously not going to be as good as the original, and I thought it was okay. There are things I that liked and things that I didn't. At least I was feeling some excitement as opposed to the emotionless drag that was the live action movie. At least I get to shamelessly eat up all that Zutara scarfgate content.

But there was this thing that was bothering me in the back of my mind. It's gotten to the point where I actually jotted down notes before my shift at work started, as if I'm writing an essay for school and I don't want to lose my ideas because of my squirrel brain. You've read the header, it's about our favourite Moon Princess and her relation to the patriarchal system of the Northern Water Tribe.

We all love to complain about how Sokka's sexist to upcoming feminist character arc was taken away, and I do too, but I'd like to complain about the inconsistencies of the worldbuilding in this post.

In episode 7, we get this scene:

And in the very next scene we get this:

And I thought, "Huh, something's not right here."

I don't know about you, but a culturally sexist tribe wouldn't allow a woman to do something like that, at least not without her fighting for that right. You might say that, "Oh, but Hahn said breaking off the engagement is her prerogative. She's a princess."

I say nay. If she could do that in the original cartoon, then why was she so moved to tears after hearing about Kanna and Pakku's arranged marriage.

It's never explicitly said, but something tells me that Yue wouldn't have been allowed to reject Hahn's proposal even if she wanted to. It won't matter if she's in higher a position than Hahn. She's a woman and that's that.

Yue breaking off her engagement in the live action doesn't feel like a progressive move, but a conflicting part of the worldbuilding. We end up losing the tragedy of Yue's role as a woman and how that arc pairs well with Katara going toe-to-toe with the tribe's chauvinistic waterbending traditions. The Water Tribe's misogyny is not just about how women aren't allowed in combat, it's about the little things too. It's about how decisions are made for women by men, how women are told to know their place, how they don't have a say in who they marry, and how even men are made to feel emasculated if they stray too far from the "ideal" man's customs.

I do have a way to fix this, though. You want a Yue fighting for her rights? Here are some suggestions:

I love the original Yue the way she is. We love a soft-spoken and compassionate princess, but it's fine if the live action wants to give her a sprinkle of rebellion, just a sprinkle. Maybe you could SHOW Yue tirelessly fighting tooth and nail to break off her engagement.

You can characterize Hahn in the same way as the original—an egotistical warrior. The arrangement ended up forcing Yue's hand, so she decided that she won't have much to lose if she took a stand for herself.

Maybe because of her willingness to break traditional customs, the elders of the tribe are beginning to show Yue less and less respect than they used to.

Yue's defiance is a slow burn arc. Perhaps she and Katara bond even more and Katara's natural fury and rebelliousness rubs off on Yue, so she decides to stick it to Hahn.

Man, I cannot believe I wrote all this. If only I was this passionate while writing essays in high school.