#Nightless City and the First Seige

[flowersdiceandlove]

one thing I really like about wangxian is that is that in wwx's first life they both put their duties and obligations before their feelings and then in wwx's second life put their feelings first.

like, before, lwj always stopped his duties to his family and the social pressures surrounding them stop him from acting on his feelings. Even when he did act on his feelings instead of what he "should" do (taking wwx from nightless city and protecting him), he still let his feeling of duty stop him from acting when he was needed (submitting to the discipline whip and, (unknowingly, i cannot stress this enough: unknowingly) as such, not able to be there to help wei ying during the seige).

wwx also let his duties and obligations towards the jiangs, and later the wen, stop him to. at the start of the novel doesn't wwx say that he always had to think about how his actions reflected on the Jiang Clan and now that he was mxy he could act as lunaticy as he wanted? he also felt he had to repay wen ning and wen qing for helping him and jc and for the core transfer.

basically, in that first life, duty won out over what they truly wanted, but then when wwx came back from the dead they literally just disappeared from cultivation society and any duties they would've had for three months on an extended honeymoon. And i love that. That shift from "duty first" to "Nope."

And i know they did go back and took care of duties, but i think they're putting their feelings and principals before what their families and cultivation society thinks they should be doing. I think they're a lot healthier for it too. Hopefully they can pass this wisdom onto the juniors so they don't have to learn it the hard way.

[wutheringskies]

Jin Guangyao and Wei Wuxian aren't the same.

Jin Guangyao is one of the best written characters I've come across. A villian that doesnt look like one, doesnt act like one, is likeable, has strong motivations and a defined personality and extremely fun to read fanfics about. But what I dislike is the role that fanon gives him; specially his role in the story with allusions to Wei Wuxian, casting Jin Guangyao as someone similar to Wei Ying. The "poor children turned to forced villains" trope. This meta is about WHY that's NOT true.

The humiliation of his mother didn't give him the right to burn down an entire brothel. (personally, I found it satisfying but). The desire of acceptance from his father was a motivation for his crimes, not a factor that validates those crimes. Often, Jin Guangyao is treated as the counter part of Wei Wuxian. They both share only three similarities, however:

1. Both came from low backgrounds and struggled a lot in their childhoods. Meng Yao had food, but witnessed constant humiliation. Wei Ying had nothing, and then got tangled into the fucked up dynamics of the Jiangs.

2. Both were found to be much different than what people believed them to be. Wei Wuxian was supposed to be evil, hateful, a murderer who kills just to satisfy his blood thirst and need for power, a monster. Jin Guangyao was supposed to be the guy who worked hard and rose to the top, humble, kind, honest and pure of heart.

3. Both had their reputations destroyed from targeted rumor mill.

That is all.

Other than that, Jin Guangyao is NOT at all similar to Wei Wuxian by any measure. He had to do bad things because he desired power, and to gain, power in a corrupt world, you need to be even more corrupted. He killed all those who looked down upon him (not bodily harm him). He clenched his teeth and killed everyone who protested against him or questioned him. He silenced everybody before they could silence him. He isn't SOLELY responsible but he only played the cards that would bring HIM benefit, not the cards that were righteous, or good, or kind.

Wei Wuxian never desired power, was willing to give up a limb for the safety of his sect. When has he ever raised his sword or his flute if not in self defense? When has he ever attacked first and when has he ever killed an innocent? The only innocent he's most directly responsible for is Jin Zixuan and that was too, in an ambush, where he was asked to back down.

Not just that, everyone is always talking about the Nightless City massacre but never about the Burial Mounds Seige 2.0 where all of the cultivators WOULD have DIED, if not for Lan Wangji and Wei Wuxian.

If your reasoning behind justifying Jin Guangyao's actions and murders is the "intention" then you come across as hypocritical if you condemn Wei Wuxian for the Nightless City massacre, ignoring everything that led to it. His prowess in cultivation, his natural genius, and his terrifying powers that he built himself even after losing a core are not crimes that he should be punished for, but he was. Because he's supposed to be just the son of a servant. How dare he be so powerful? So many attempts on his life were made and he survived them all. So many attempts to summon his soul, and they didn't work.

Is surviving a crime? For the Jiang Cheng stans who always thrust the survivor narrative onto JC, this is a question for them. Was Wei Wuxian wrong to have survived incidents in which he was being attacked? Should he have died for doing absolutely nothing wrong, other than having a different voice? For standing against a structure that always prioritizes one being above all, being the ultimate voice that cannot be questioned?

Here I'm going to quote some parts from the ExR translation of Villanous Friends:

He Su, “What was the irresistible trend? What was stirring up trouble? Jin GuangShan wanted to establish the position of chief cultivator only to imitate the QishanWen Sect in being the only ones at the top. Do you think all the world is ignorant? You frame me like this only because I spoke the truth!”

When you really succeed, all of the world of cultivation would see the true face of the LanlingJin Sect. Do you think killing me alone would put you eternally at ease? How wrong you are! We, the TingshanHe Sect, teem with talent. From now on, we’ll unite and never surrender to you Wen-dogs of another skin!”

Sounds familiar?

After a few laughs, he continued, “Sect Leader Jin, let me ask you something else. Do you think that, because the QishanWen Sect is gone, the LanlingJin Sect has all right to replace it?”

Wei WuXian added, “Everything has to be given to you? Everyone has to listen to you? Looking at how the LanlingJin Sect does things, I almost thought that it was the QishanWen Sect’s empire all over again.”

Wei WuXian, “Did I say something wrong? Forcing living people to be bait and beating them up whenever they refused to obey—is this any different from what the QishanWen Sect does?”

These were voices that questioned the greater powers. This is what happened to these voices:

Jin Guangyao: That’s not the way to go about things, is it? The TingshanHe Sect rebelled and schemed to assassinate Sect Leader Jin with all its forces before it was caught red-handed. How could that be called without a reason?”

Flashback to Wen Chao, asking if the disciples in the Xuanwu Cave were rebelling when they protected Mianmian who was asked to be the live bait of a monster.

Also, flashback to Wei Wuxian standing up for the Wens and being called a rebel when he stood up for the Wens who were being used as live baits to strengthen the Jin.

The ones over there cried, “Brother! He’s lying! We didn’t, we didn’t!”

Flashback to Wen Ning "losing control" at Koi Tower probably due to Xue Yang's invention. But the point to be taken away is that Sect Leader He Su's younger disciples, who are harmless, are framed as murderers. A position similar to what Wei Wuxian was put into.

He Su, “Utterly nonsense! Open your eyes and fucking look! There are nine-year-old children here! Old men who can’t even walk! How could they rebel against anything?! Why would they assassinate your dad out of nowhere?!”

Funny how the evils of society comprised of old grandmas, uncles, a toddler, a doctor, a fierce corpse, and a cultivator with no status, no core, no money, no voice living in a cave with a pool of blood, digging the Burial soil to grow some potatoes.

And not those who were sitting on their thrones, reveling in riches and ordering people around.

Jin GuangYao, “Because you made a mistake and committed murder, Young Master He Su, while they refused to accept Koi Tower’s conviction of you, of course.”

"A mistake" reminds me of the incident at qionggi path. Even if Jin Zixuan hadn't died that day, they would've kept cornering Wei Wuxian until he'd have no other choice but to go on the offensive (which is what he did.)

Turns out even being sooo powerful that he could shake mountains, he eventually died.

Yet, at such a place, nobody would listen to his protests. Sitting before him were two villains who already treated him as though he were dead. What they enjoyed was precisely his dying struggle. Smiling, Jin GuangYao leaned back, waving his hand, “Hush him up, hush him up.”

"You shut them in live?"

Xue Yang turned around, curling his lips, “Wei WuXian never used live humans, but I wanna try.”

So, Xue Yang is an actual demonic cultivator who's protected by the Jins, murdered 2 entire clans and this is the third one and godness knows how many more. Absolutely very few people give actual fucks about what cultivation methods to employ. The one who really cared was perhaps, Lan Wangji.

Jin Guangyao as you can see isn't being "forced" to kill people because he's of lower birth and nobody accepts him :(

He's killing people to silence those who speak against his and his father's (and they both are one and the same entity. he's acting on his father's orders which he could've disobeyed and run away but he would lose his sect reputation and standing.)

Why does his reputation and standing mean more than the lives of all these 70 people ?

Were they trying to kill him? No.

Did they attack him first to the point he would lose his life? No.

Would they have thrown him into a whore house? No.

Let us please not compare Wei Wuxian and Jin Guangyao.

MXTX wants us to know what's said and told may not be right. Wei Wuxian isn't fond of the techniques that are used to confirm Jin Guangyao's demise. He's critical of how nobody else is concerned. He's unsure of what NHS's motivations are - does he now want complete power? or did his plan only extend up to his revenge? He's critical of how only yesterday people were all over this guy and today they hate him. Critical of how society works on what is favourable and not what is true.

But he's not SUPPORTIVE of Jin Guangyao. He's sympathetic to people turning onto you, but not empathetic towards Jin Guangyao. He believes Jin Guangyao to be a cruel man.

Those are two different things.

Nobody knows better than Wei Wuxian how it feels to be set up at every step:

1. Firstly he was used as a punching bag for Madam Yu and an emotional one for JC throughout his childhood

2. The Wens completely played him up, setting him as the cause of LP's fall.

3. Then, he was played by the Jins and the cultivation world until his death by validating JC's jealousy against him, by villianizing him and estranging him, by setting up the ambush, by sending JZX, by making false promises, by not checking for validity, by controlling Wen Ning, by setting up the seige parade, by getting JYL there, and finally the seige. (even after his death disrespecting his all)

4. He was brought back to the world on the revenge plans of NHS and tossed like a tennis ball from the plans of NHS and JGY. Yi City arc? children would've died -> NHS. Burial Mound seige 2.0? everyone would've died -> JGY. if LWJ wasn't with him at every step of the way, Wei Ying would've once again been in such a spot. Without any status or authority he would've gotten no help, no aid, and been villianized once more. He would've been stabbed and captured with nobody to save him. He would've made himself the bait without anybody to fight the monsters off.

Each of us have individual capacities and also, each of us have the one thing we cannot let happen:

1. Wei Ying can't let injustice prevail and sit by the side doing nothing

2. Jin Guangyao can't take in being stripped of power and being a lowlife again.

Those are two very different things. JGY made every decision he could to escape his grand fear, which was personal. I don't condemn his motivations personally cause I find them hot. Similar to how I find his character hot. Yet, he's not the hero on the opposite spectrum. He's not the lowlife who was killed because people can't handle people from lower birth statuses being on the top chairs for making decisions - but that is also true - but is not the reason behind his tragedy. Not the sole reason and also not the most important reason.

The most important reason is as it is said: he believes himself to be different and values his life over others, similar to Xue Yang. Their personalities vary greatly, yet his "true" friends were Xue Yang and Su She. (He showed glimpses of the truth and of his reality to LXC. So, he's hiding the truth and LXC doesn't wish to dig deeper anyways thus not a true friendship.) One wished to take revenge in extremely unfair shares, a clan for a finger. A clan for a son. The entire cultivation world could die but he couldn't be badmouthed or put on trial or killed. The other - Su She, wished to be recognized by those who he equally hated, despised and considered arrogant and also was jealous and envious of. So, these two traits - great desire for revenge onto everyone who's ever said anything mean about him, and the desire for power. You may argue how this developed from his childhood trauma but you can't argue that this justifies his cold blooded crimes because it doesn't. Another thing I'd like to add is that, his friendship with Lan Xichen also shows his personality; not wanting to take the messy, big path (such as showing up to your own death planning party, or planning a death party) and his relatively calm nature. Yet just like the friendship it is fragmented and fake; a composure that is stuck onto the cold, and hot brimming desire for power.

There was one character who had to kill a large number of people or would have no other option left and it wasn't Jin Guangyao. There was one character who was hated by society solely because of his background and his desire to protect people and it wasn't Jin Guangyao. There was one character who had to give up everything for what he believed in and it wasn't Jin Guangyao. There was one character who ended up being the indirect reason for the passing of loved siblings due to the unjust society.

and it wasn't Jin Guangyao.

(but there were two characters who had confirmed sex before marriage. one of them was Jin Guangyao)

[oh-dameron]

... Oh shit what if Xiao Xingchen and Song Lan saved Wen Qing?

Seriously. The Jin took Wen Ning prisoner and definitely, totally, burned him to ash. The Jin took Xue Yang prisoner and 100% followed through with their agreement to execute him. There's better than 50% odds that famously-skilled doctor Wen Qing was alive in a dungeon somewhere for the events at Nightless City and the first seige of the Burial Mounds.

Which is, y'know, fucking tragic, because WWX never even considers it.

But Xiao Xingchen comes down from Baoshen Sanren's mountain only a year or so later-not explicitly for any reason to with with his martial sister's son, but boy howdy I'm sure he'd be interested to hear all about it, and those dreadful Wen dogs that he died trying to protect. Just how many of those super Ghost General-style fierce corpses were in the army of Wen demonic cultivators, anyway? That's so fascinating!

And when they caught up to Xue Yang he was very particular about taking him to Koi Tower to face justice. Probably not connected at all to the fate of the leaders of the Wen remnants.

But later, when Xue Yang razes the monastery and takes Song Lan's eyes they return to Baoshen Sanren's mountain and she transfers Xiao Xingchen's eyes to Song Lan.

Baoshen Sanren's mountain, to which you very famously cannot return. In a scheme that we have we have seen play out beat-for-beat with Wei Wuxian and Jiang Cheng. And the person who did that transfer was not Baoshen Sanren. And we don't hear that story from Xiao Xingchen or Song Lan: it's just what everyone says. It is a rumour, in the book about not believing rumours.

Wei Wuxian never has an opportunity to speak to Xiao Xingchen, and the conversation with Song Lan is... short. He's not in a great headspace, obviously, and if Xiao Xingchen and Wen Qing did the ol' Baoshen Sanren switcheroo on him he might not even know there's anything to tell. We see Xiao Xingchen almost exclusively through A'Qing's empathy, and while he tells a story about Cangse Sanren he's got no reason to share anything about a jailbreak with his teenage ward, particularly not one he's sworn to secrecy about.

There's no way for Wei Wuxian to learn this information. Until, eventually, news reaches the tiny village in Qishan, or Dongying, or actually-Baoshen Sanren's-mountain (hey, Wen Qing has never left that mountain, maybe she's allowed in) or wherever Wen Qing has been living her life that the Yiling Patriarch and the Ghost General are back from the dead and everyone is cool with them now.

I can see why it's not part of the story: there's really only so many times you can pull the "character who died tragically is actually still alive" card before it gets ridiculous and the deaths stop having the appropriate emotional impact, and I think using it on Wen Yuan was the right choice. But as far as I can tell, this is still canon-compliant so you can pry secretlyalive!Wen Qing from my cold, dead hands.

[oh-dameron]

Conversely, these individuals might hold more narrative weight if Wei Wuxian was in the habit of going around and making victims of people. He wasn't. The overwhelming majority of his "victims" were at the Qionqi Path ambush (where they had gatherered en mass to try and kill him), the pledge conference at Nightless City (where they had gathered en mass to agree to go and kill him), or at the first seige of the Burial Mounds (where...you get the picture). Most of these "victims" are simply living in their Find Out era. Their grievances are relegated to the mutterings of an angry mob because that's where they originated.

MDZS and asshole victims: thoughts on the second siege of the burial mounds scene

this post is not about morality judgments. this post is about reader sympathies only.

one rather clever rhetorical trick MDZS employs is putting all the more background "surviving victims of wei wuxian's actions" into one big angry mob at the second siege of the burial mounds, instead of letting them crop up anywhere else in the story. it's easy for a first-time reader to write off the guy who lost a leg at nightless city, or the guy whose parents died at nightless city, because both of those guys are being dicks. they're part of an angry mob baying for wei wuxian's blood--unfairly baying for wei wuxian's blood, because this time he didn't even do the thing they're saying he did. by putting these two victims into a mob of not just fellow victims but also unaffected individuals (ie. sect leader yao, who just showed up for kicks), the story can effectively equate these victims' grievances (ie. "you killed my parents") with unreasonable mob rule--even if these two things might not actually be equivalent.

the effect of this rhetorical trick, then, is that the reader can at once perceive the themes about mob mentality MXTX wishes to convey, and also effectively write off the victims' complaints. "yes, i did that to you, but i literally died already, what more do you want me to do? shall i walk on my knees repenting?" becomes easier for the reader to accept. and more importantly--wei wuxian's likability as a moral and just protagonist is not impacted.

ngl tho. it would be a bit more difficult for the reader to write off these victims' complaints if, instead of meeting said victims in an angry mob, the reader instead met these victims almost anywhere else. imagine if, instead of meeting mr. "you killed my parents" at the second siege of the burial mounds, we instead met him getting smashed at the local bar and crying about how his parents are dead. imagine if, instead of meeting mr. "you chopped off my leg" as a member of an angry mob, we instead met him begging for alms on the side of the road because his disability rendered him unable to work in a wuxia-esque setting. or imagine--if either of these background characters, overcome with survivor's guilt and trauma from nightless city, hung himself in his bedroom, and the next day his body was discovered by his 15-year-old daughter.

all of these scenarios are entirely plausible. you could easily include any of them into the story without changing the main plot at all. but suddenly shit just got a lot more depressing.

however, no such scene would ever be included in MDZS. the reason is that, as a work of fiction, MDZS's single most ardent goal is for us the readers to conclude not just that "we like wei wuxian as a character," but also that "wei wuxian is ultimately a morally righteous person." when the narrative focus shifts onto the people who were actually helped by wei wuxian's actions (mianmian and her family, lan sizhui, the few months of dignity the wen remnants were afforded) this becomes much easier for us to conclude; wei wuxian does indeed look like a hero. but the more narrative focus is given to the negative impacts of wei wuxian's actions--the more the "victims of wei wuxian" (whether actual victims or not) are given a face, instead of abstracted away by broad summaries--the more the reader might side-eye wei wuxian instead. every new victim given a name, given narrative attention that isn't just focused on making them look like an asshole, arouses the reader's sympathies in the opposite direction--and thus increases the risk that the reader might ultimately disagree with the novel's conclusion of "wei wuxian is a righteous person."

tbh, this does not seem like a risk MXTX particularly wants to take. instead, she's mastered the art of writing Asshole Victims.

which is an entirely valid writing decision, because imo basically every work of genre fiction out there does this to some extent.

[jiangwanyinscatmom]

1- you know JC stans always try to deflect claiming LQR LXC LWJ and NMJ are all equally at fault bc they didn't stand for trhe wens either but JC and WWX are literally the only two people who know the truth about the wen sibs and he decided not to tell anyone so the public has no means of knowing everything they did and risked for him, they literally committed treason to save the jiang sect and protect them from the wen army but in the eyes of the public they are known as loyal disciples to WRH-

Thank you for the question anon!

Relevant passages in regards to this issue posted first since a lot of it gets very misconstrued with what blame lies where with the Sect Leaders before the events when it came to the massacre at Nightless City and the deaths of the Wen Remnants. This is not necessarily clean cut after the fallout with Jin Zixuan and Jin Zixun's deaths. This is also still with the underlying plot of Jin Guangshan aiming for the Yin Hu Fu. There is a lot of political intrigue that goes ignored with this by manipulation of the Jin Sect and Jiang Cheng being blinded by his own jealousy.

“… Four inspectors were harmed. Around fifty of the remaining Wen Sect members escaped. After Wei WuXian led them into Burial Mound, he summoned hundreds of fierce corpses to patrol the base of the mountain. Our people still can’t get any further.”

“… Four inspectors were harmed. Around fifty of the remaining Wen Sect members escaped. After Wei WuXian led them into Burial Mound, he summoned hundreds of fierce corpses to patrol the base of the mountain. Our people still can’t get any further.”

When he finished, silence filled the Golden Pavilion.

Jiang Cheng only spoke after a few moments, “What he did was indeed a bit too much. Sect Leader Jin, I apologize to you in place of him. If there’s any way at all to help the situation, please let me know. I’ll definitely compensate for things however I can.”

What Jin GuangShan wanted, however, wasn’t his apology or his compensation, “Sect Leader Jiang, at first, for your sake, the LanlingJin Sect didn’t intend on saying anything. However, some of these inspectors weren’t from the Jin Sect. There were a few from other sects as well. This makes it…”

Jiang Cheng’s brows were knitted. He rubbed the vein that throbbed at his temple and soundlessly took in a deep breath, “… I apologize to all of the Sect Leaders. Everyone, I’m afraid you don’t know that the Wen cultivator whom Wei WuXian wanted to save was called Wen Ning. We owe him and his sister Wen Qing gratitude for what happened during the Sunshot Campaign.”

Nie MingJue, “You owe them gratitude? Isn’t the QishanWen Sect the ones who caused the YunmengJiang Sect’s annihilation?”

Within these few years, Jiang Cheng insisted on working late into the night every day. That day, just as he decided to rest early, he had to rush to Koi Tower overnight because of the thundering news. He’d been suppressing some anger under his fatigue since the beginning. With his natural competitiveness, he was already quite agitated since he had to apologize to other people. When he heard Nie MingJue mention the incident of his sect again, hatred sprouted within him.

The hatred was directed at not only everyone who was seated in this room, but also Wei WuXian.

Passage 2:

Using the atmosphere, Jin GuangShan turned to Jiang Cheng, “He’s been plotting for a while to go to Burial Mound, hasn’t he? After all, with his skills, it wouldn’t be too hard to set up a sect of his own. And so, he used this as a chance to leave the Jiang Sect, intending to do whatever he pleases in the bright skies outside. You rebuilt the YunmengJiang Sect with so much work. He’s got a few controversial traits in him to begin with, and still he doesn’t restrain himself, stirring up so much trouble for you. He doesn’t care about you at all.”

Jiang Cheng pretended to stand his ground, “That probably isn’t that case. Wei WuXian has been like this ever since he was young. Even my father couldn’t do anything about him.”

Jin GuangShan, “Even FengMian-xiong couldn’t do anything about him, huh?” He chuckled a few times, “FengMian-xiong just favored him.”

Hearing the words ‘favors him’, the muscles beside the corners of Jiang Cheng’s mouth twitched.

Jin GuangShan continued, “Sect Leader Jiang, you’re not like your father. It’s just been a couple of years since the reestablishment of the YunmengJiang Sect, precisely when you should be displaying your power. And he doesn’t even know to avoid suspicions. What would the Jiang Sect’s new disciples think if they saw him? Don’t tell me you’d let them see him as their role model and look down on you?”

He spoke one sentence after another, striking the iron while it was still hot. Jiang Cheng spoke slowly, “Sect Leader Jin, that’s enough. I’ll go to The Burial Mounds and deal with this.”

Here the sect leaders were aware of the Wen Sect remnants as prisoners of war and saw it as a justifiable reason to keep the remaining Wens imprisoned regardless of age status etc. When Jiang Cheng is asked by Nie Mingjue for clarification on the matter of the debt owed by the Wen siblings it is deflected by Jin Guangshan and Jin Guangyao with clever wordplay to rile everyone up. This leaves those who either asked for more information, Lan Xichen who is shutdown by not having enough information by the majority and Nie Mingjue distracted by his hate of the Wens already, and Mianmian and Lan Wangji who argued that Wei Wuxian was protecting innocents and was not trying to cause a coup ignored as being irrelevant opinions. Wei Wuxian is eventually labelled a defector and danger due to Jiang Cheng exasperating what they had actually planned in the staged fight.

After this several months pass until Lan Wangji comes to tell Wei Wuxian of Jiang Yanli's marriage in a week's time. Several days later the Jiang siblings arrive with the same news and Jiang Yanli is the one to extend a peace branch to try keeping the three connected with the courtesy naming or Jin Ling. Almost a year's time later Wei Wuxian is in fact invited to the one-month celebration as another peace branch by Jin Zixuan who was the one to extend the offer. Jin Guangshan, Jin Zixun and Jin Guangyao planned the murder of Wei Wuxian in Qiongqi Pass against Jin Zixuan's knowledge. This leads to the mess of his murder and Wei Wuxian being hunted down as well as all of the remaining Wens on order of Jin Guangshan in retaliation after Wen Qing is killed as the remaining leader of the Wens and Wen Ning secretly suppressed. This leads to days later to the Pledge Conference at the city which holds Jin Zixuan's body and Jiang Yanli who is there to keep the death vigils (Shou Ling) as family. It's also why her and Madam Jin are wearing the white robes when Wei Wuxian sees them and by bad luck comes across the sect leaders pact when he tries to flee.

After the the wine had seeped into the dirt, Jin GuangShan stated, “No matter the sect, no matter the surname—this cup of wine is to the soldiers who have died.”

Nie MingJue, “May their souls live on.”

Lan XiChen, “Rest in peace.”

Jiang Cheng, however, still had on a darkened expression. He didn’t say anything even after he poured the wine.

Afterward, Jin GuangYao walked out from the LanlingJin Sect’s array and presented with both hands a square box made of black iron. Jin GuangShan took the box with one hand and raised it high in the air, shouting, “Here lies the ashes of the Wen Sect’s remnants!”

After he spoke, he sent forth his spiritual energy and shattered the box with his bare hand. The iron box broke into pieces, and white dust drifted alongside the cold wind.

A scattering of the ashes!

A series of cheers exploded through the crowd. Jin GuangShan raised his hands, signaling for the people to be quiet and listen to him talk. When the cheers slowly died down, he continued, raising his voice, “Tonight, the ones whose ashes had been scattered were the two leaders of the Wen Sect’s remnants. And tomorrow! It will be the rest of the Wen-dogs and—the YiLing Laozu, Wei Ying!”

Suddenly, a low laugh interrupted his grand speech. The laugh was too untimely, sounding both stark and jarring. In unison, the crowd turned to look at where the sound came from.

The Palace of Sun and Flames was a rather magnificent palace. A total of twelve ridges made up its roof, and at the end of each ridge were eight heavenly beasts. Yet, right now, the people realized that on one of those ridges, there were nine. The laugh from before came from over there!

The extra beast shifted slightly. The next moment, a boot and a corner of black clothes dangled down from the roof, swaying softly.

Everyone placed their hand onto their sword hilt. Jiang Cheng’s pupils shrunk. Blue veins lined the back of his hand.

Jin GuangShan was overcome with both shock and hatred, “Wei Ying! How dare you show yourself here!”

The person opened their mouth to speak. What came out was indeed Wei WuXian’s voice, but he spoke in a strange tone, “Why should I dare not show myself here? Do you people here even add up to three thousand? Don’t forget that back in the Sunshot Campaign, let alone three thousand, I’ve fought against five thousand on my own before. And by appearing here, haven’t I granted your wish? No need for you to come all the way to my home tomorrow to scatter my ashes.”

A few of the QingheNie Sect’s disciples died in the hands of Wen Ning as well. Nie MingJue spoke coldly, “What arrogance.”

Wei WuXian, “Haven’t I always been arrogant? Sect Leader Jin, how does it feel, having slapped yourself in the face? Who was the one that said he’d let the matter go if the Wen siblings went to Koi Tower and gave themselves up? And who was the one that just said he’d scatter my ashes and the ashes of the rest of the Wen Sect’s remnants tomorrow?”

Jin GuangShan, “Let’s consider things as they stand! At Qiongqi Path, you slaughtered over a hundred of the LanlingJin Sect’s disciples—this is one thing. You made Wen Ning kill at Koi Tower—this is another…”

Wei WuXian, “Then let me ask you, Sect Leader Jin, at Qiongqi Path, who was the one being ambushed? And who was the one to kill? Who was the main schemer? And who was the one being schemed against? In the end, just who was the one that came to provoke me first?”

Keep in mind none of the other sect leaders were privy to the scheme between Jin Guangshan, Jin Guangyao and Jin Zixun. And they believe they are certainly fighting off a crazed Wei Wuxian and what they think are his fodder Wens meant for corpses. After this Wei Wuxian desperately fights against Lan Wangji who is trying to calm him down before it's too late which is unsuccessful leading to Jiang Yanli also trying to calm him down enough to get him away and talk some sense to get him out of there to run and get to the Wens. After her death he mentally blacks out and Lan Wangji is left trying to take him away to safety close enough to Burial Mounds. Lan Wangji then fights off his elders as Lan Xichen gathered the Lans to find them. Immediately after this is in sequestered secrecy Lan Wangji is punished. Lan Xichen presumably stays with his own brother while Lan Qiren is the acting Sect Leader for the actual Siege that the other three are part of as support. That leaves Jin Guangshan with the ulterior motive of getting the Yin Hu Fu, Jiang Cheng who wants revenge for the death of Jiang Yanli, and Nie Mingjue left to think he is killing what he considers disgraceful Wens.

So, in short, each of them had different motivations for actually being there, and different accounts for those reasons. The Jins for more power, Jiangs for revenge, Nies for justice and the Lans in solidarity. And the fault of it isn't meted out equally as all had misunderstandings and manipulated by Jin Guangshan's pull to each of their morals as cultivation sects. In the end each of the four were there to kill the Wens and Wei Wuxian aside from Lan Wangji and arguably Jiang Yanli when she was caught up trying to get Wei Wuxian to run.

[hanguangbuns]

anyone else notice in the donghua how just the mere presence of lan wangji seems to ground wei wuxian? especially in his second life? there are a lot of scenes where, when wei ying gets lost in himself or lost in his thoughts, lan wangji—or more specifically lan wangji’s forehead ribbon, brings him back to reality. both before he learns of the meaning and after! the scenes im talking about are specifically in episode 28 (s3, ep5), where they go to jinlintai for the cultivation conference, and in episode 32 (s3, ep9), when the failed second seige occurs and wei ying is being accused by the cultivation world.

in ep 28, they are going up the steps to jinlintai, and wei ying is deep in thought about their plan. in that moment, lan wangji’s forehead ribbon catches his eye, and he is brought back to reality. in that moment, his first instinct is to touch it and tease lan wangji (and all in front of zewu-jun)… lan wangji isnt angry, but he takes his ribbon back with a look on his face, and they tease each other for a while (“how many times were you asked to copy gusulan’s rules of ettiquite?” “uhmm.. five times? six times? i cant remember.” “…you copied them for nothing.”); its a really cute scene and he has yet to learn about the significance of the ribbon.

in ep 32, he has then since learned about the ribbon’s significance. here, the cultivators of the world have gathered to accuse wei wuxian again, and vow to bring him down once more. they recount the events of nightless city… accuse him of kidnapping their children, among other things. here, wei wuxian once again gets lost in his thoughts, and is starting to feel alone, but he sees a certain forehead ribbon fluttering in front of him and now, he realizes has someone by his side. lan wangji stands up for him. lan wangji is there for him.

wei wuxian, whether he’s consious of it or not, absolutely adores lan wangji’s forehead ribbon. its one of his grounding points. even after he learns of its significance, and before the conclusion of the story, its something that he cherishes, something that reminds him that lan wangji is there, and reminds him of the fact that lan wangji will always be by his side. i think its sweet, and i think its one of the more “subtle” ways the donghua shows their blooming romance, even though they have more blatant ways of showing it (ie, the drunk scene with the ribbon, the ending)

side note: setting aside the fact that the donghua took a totally different approach in how much wei wuxian would be reponsible for the events of qiongqi path, nightless city, etc… whats important, to me at least, is lan wangji standing up for wei wuxian. he puts it plainly for the cultivation world to understand, that he is on his side, no matter what anyone says. and he doesn’t just say it, he shows it. lan wangji, time and time again, shows us how, no matter what, he stays by wei ying’s side. he goes after him and always makes sure he’s okay, and always makes sure that wei ying knows that as much as he needs lan wangji, lan wangji needs him too. anyways i’m going on a tangent here but the fact is i love the donghua sksjsj

[angstymdzsthoughts]

WWX gets a second chance and makes the best of it by acting in his own interest completely. Told through the pov of everyone but WWX because he's actually having a good time whilst everyone else get whipped by their own bad karma.

After the seige at the Burial Mounds that ends his life WWX awakens in the past after WC threw him into the Burial Mounds.

JC, JYL, LWJ, LQR and the other main Sect Leaders have also travelled back in time and find themselves in a much worse position in the war when WWX stays in the Burial Mounds and refuses to join the Sunshot Campaign.

At first they think that they can win against WRH... Then WRH obtains all the Yin Iron and without WWX they lose the war. A year after that WWX offers his services to WRH in return for LWJs freedom and only LWJs freedom.

WRH learns to master Resentment and with WWXs subtle talisman work is fully restored to sanity(as well as returning WRHs memory of the first timeline), WRH is distressed at what he has done and what happened but is suprised when WWX (his most dedicated enemy in the original Sunshot Campaign) advises him to keep the sects under the Wen banner calling them too hopelessly corrupt to be allowed to exist by themselves citing their actions with the Wen Remnants.

Having completed his contract WWX and LWJ leave Nightless City unmolested, past the imprisoned Sect Leaders without a backward glance.

.

[plan-d-to-i]

God, If i have to see ONE more person blaming wwx for Nightless city and JZX' s death, i'm going to tear my hair out.

Like the jins fucking invited him and attacked him and JZX instead of asking his cousin to stop, went to stop wwx ( Jzx i like u but why do u have to be jyl' s husband and put yourself in a dangerous situation like that and wwx ended up taking the consequences for it too).

And Nightless city, when i read the novel, wwx is just sitting there talking and the mob attacks first, they don't even let him finish! (This is exactly like how someone claimed that it was XL' s own fault for getting stabbed by a hundred swords bcz he was stupid enough to run out of the house right into BWX' s arms) And i'm 99.9% sure that the 3000 people is a rumour bcz a lot of the people who were there participated in the 2nd seige like JC. Like what exactly was wwx supposed to do?? What choice did he have?

Istg these takes must come from the same people who say that when a woman is raped, it's her own fault for wearing too less clothes or getting out at night. Or blaming a woman if she killed her attacker in self-defense when they were trying to assault her.

Like the sheer amount of victim blaming in this fandom is just horrible.

I already talked at length about Jin-I'm going to yell at the man being attacked by my cousin to just stop fighting and come stand trial at my fam's place while I pretend I have control of the situation at all - Zixuan but the Nightless City thing is even more absurd. AND WWX POINTS IT OUT:

“Oh,” Wei WuXian helped him analyze, “If he wanted to to kill me, he didn’t have to think about whether it was a fatal blow or not, and if I died, it’d be my own bad luck. If I wanted to protect myself, however, I had to think about this and that not to harm, unable to take even a single strand of hair away from him? In conclusion, you all could pull a siege on me, but I’m not allowed to fight back, am I right?”

Are people just not reading the same thing?

"Tears of laughter seeped from the corners of Wei WuXian’s eyes, “Your admiration as a bit too cheap, isn’t it? You said that you’ll forever stand on the opposite side of me. Very well. Does the fact that you’re standing on the opposite side of me affect me at all? Both your admiration and your hatred are so, so insignificant. How could you be so shameless as to flaunt them in front of others?”

Before he could finish, he suddenly felt something at his throat. A dull ache came from his chest. He looked down to see a fletched arrow in the center of his chest. The head of the arrow was buried between two of his ribs.

He gazed toward the direction in which the arrow came from. The one who shot the arrow was a young cultivator with delicate features. Standing before a small sect’s array, he was still maintaining the pose, his bowstring still vibrating.

Wei WuXian could tell the arrow tip was originally aiming for his heart, his vital region. Yet, because the archer wasn’t skilled, the force of the arrow tip dwindled by midair to have missed the heart and shot into the ribcage."

....

Jin GuangShan ordered, “Set up the battle arrays, set up the battle arrays! We won’t let him leave here alive no matter what!”

With the order, the stalemate was finally broken. Carrying swords and arrows, many disciples rushed toward the ceiling of the palace.

They finally attacked first!

I really could not care less if it was 3000 or 5000. They showed up to hype each other up getting ready to attack and kill WWX & the people he was protecting. They didn't even let him finish talking. How are you gonna have the face to get mad bc the dude you thought was going to be overwhelmed by your force whooped all of your asses?

[mostlikelytofangirl]

It's always felt weird to me that Lan Sizhui / A-Yuan s often propped up as the reason Wei Wuxian saving the Wen Remnants was worth it when he's pretty much the only one who would have survived anyway.

(I'm not saying it's not, as those months/years spent in the burial mounds clearly meant a lot to the Wens. But a LOT of people ended up dying from the prison break to Nightless City to the First Seige. So that's something to think about.)

I'm sure if WWX just dumped A-Yuan on Nie Mingjue's doorstep and asked him if he's willing to murder toddlers in cold blood to make them pay for their parents' sins, A-Yuan would have ended up in an orphanage or foster home somewhere. Imo pretty much everyone but the scummiest of Jins is likely to be disgusted at forcing 3 year-olds into work camps. And if that doesn't seem viable, there's always hiding A-Yuan in the Jiang because he's so little no one will recognize him as Wen.

Imo all these bat-dung crazy ideas I just thought up are at LEAST as viable as the burial mounds option. It's just... Yeah, I don't think A-Yuan's survival means much when he was certainly the least likely to die among his family.

Heh. I'm not just here to soap box. Thoughts? I'm open to criticism.

- Regular Anon

That's an interesting point tbh.

While I haven't personally encountered that take, I do have to agree that yes, it's highly probable that in the heat of the battle A-Yuan could have gotten injured or killed, but really, no one in their sane mind would look at a three years-old under normal circumstances and say "yeah, this one has to go too".

A-Yuan was honestly the easiest to save. Just change his clothes and drop him in any village. As you mentioned, not even someone as hellbent on detroying the Wens as NMJ would have left such a small child to his own devices had he been given to him. So it's not like A-Yuan was some precious thing everybody was after that had to be protected at all costs. I mean, he WAS for his family, but you get my point.

Don't get me wrong tho! Even if only one person made it out of that disgrace thanks to WWX, then it was all worth it. The Jin assholes of the camp were more than happy to have a toddler work himself to death, so yes, WWX did make a difference there!

I'm just saying that I get where you are coming from bc there's also an argument to be made that... if WWX would have known that only A-Yuan survived in the end, would he had left the Wen remnants in the camp and just take A-Yuan with him? That could have saved his own life, but I honestly think he would have done it all over again even knowing the outcome. Not to mention that WWX raiding the camp also brought WN back (sorta).

Idk man, hyping A-Yuan's survival as the only reason why the Burial Mounds were worth it somehow feels like taking away what it meant to the rest of the remnants and to WWX himself.

It was worth it bc it was the right thing to do, even if no one made it in the end.

[crossdressingdeath]

I think things would be different if the narrative of the first siege made it sound like JC felt it was the only choice he had. MXTX could have easily made JC go “You lost control twice and killed people in ways that wasn’t yourself outside of war, you weren’t you anymore I felt like I lost you and a seige was the only way to stop you from doing that again” and just make it sound like JC really did think WWX had become a different person who needed to be stopped, similar to how LXC thought WWX’s heart had changed too much. Instead, MXTX makes it very clear JC lead the siege for simple revenge because he needed someone to blame and pushed it all on WWX. JC had no issues using the weaknesses he knew WWX had and leading people to kill him. What could have been “I thought I had to stop you, I thought i lost you after what happened in Nightless City and I couldn’t let you get to that point again and it always haunts me if it was the right decision” was instead “it was your fault this happened, it’s your the reason this happened, I hate you and even after you died I hunted people to make sure you remained dead”

Oh, absolutely. The novel makes it so clear that JC very much chose to kill WWX and spend the next 13 years torturing people to death; it wasn’t that he felt it was the only option or even that it was necessary. He wanted revenge, and he decided WWX was the best target for it; I don’t think it was a coincidence that he chose a target who he knew wouldn’t fight him. JC didn’t have to so much as take part in the siege, much less plan and lead it; if he was telling the truth about his sect being too weak to defend WWX, then they definitely should have been too weak to fight an undead army. Since he didn’t beg off the siege, and never made any attempt to justify it as WWX being a genuine threat (in fact him sending in his supposedly oh-so-fragile sect to fight WWX suggests to me he didn’t think WWX was a genuine threat at all; alternately, the Jiangs were far stronger than he said they were, which still doesn’t look good for him because if they were strong enough to take on a necromancer and his undead army he was lying when he said they were too weak for him to argue in WWX’s defence)... well, that says something about him, doesn’t it?

[vrishchikawrites]

Anon with the ask about the time between Nightless city and first seige, let me reread that bit of canon and get back to you.

[thewickling]

Age of Jiang Yanli, Lan Xichen, and Nie Mingjue during Key Events

After a long time, I did the next one. I also updated the previous ones to make the timeline bullet points clear/easier to read. Crossposted on ao3 for those who prefer that format.

Jiang Yanli

Jiang Yanli is "two or three" years older than Wei Wuxian and was "twelve or thirteen" during the childhood memory scene (Departure, Part Three). So take Wei Wuxian's age and add 2 to 3 years.

Gusu Exchange: 17 or 18

Discussion Conference at Qishan: 18 or 19

Indoctrination at Qishan: 19 or 20

Start of Sunshot Campaign: 19 or 21

Night-hunt at Phoenix Mt.: 22-24

Ambush at Qiongqi Path: 23-25

Massacre at the Nightless City: 23-25 (Death)

If alive for the Second Seige: 37-39

Lan Xichen

Lan Xichen is at most three years older than Lan Wangji as he appeared during the archery competition at the Discussion Conference at Qishan that was limited to disciples under twenty (Allure, Part Three). Therefore, he is one to three years older than Lan Wangji. If Lan Wangji is his highest possible age, there cannot be a 3 year age difference as 18 + 3 that would squarely place L Xichen at 20-21 the year of the Discussion Conference at Qishan. If LWJ were in his highest potential age, the maximum difference can be 2 years as if could happen in the year Lan Xichen turns 20 but before his birthday. I'm taking Lan Wangji's possible age ranges and adding 1 for the low end and 2 for the high end.

Gusu Exchange: 16-18

discussion conference at Qishan: 17 to 20 (year he turns 20 but before his birthday if you use LWJ's higher possible ranger)

start of Sunshot Campaign: 16-21

Night-hunt at Phoenix Mt.: 20-25

Ambush at Qiongqi Path: 21-26

First Siege on the Burial Mounds: 21-27

Second Siege on the Burial Mounds: 35-39

Nie Mingjue

Nie Mingjue's age is difficult to place. He inherits the sect leader role before 20 so likely 19 (Contentment, Part Three). Nie Mingjue and Huaisang’s father died half a year after his saber shatters during a night-hunt (Guile, Part Four). The Night-hunt Prohibition occurs the year prior to the Indoctrination Camp at Qishan so the night-hunt that shatters the saber must occur before then (Courage, Part One).

Additionally, Nie Mingjue was not mentioned to be a sect leader in the conversation during the Disciple Exchange at Gusu, while that detail could have been omitted considering how gossipy all the disciples are and how important it would be to mention that position, it is likely at that point he wasn’t yet the sect leader (Refinement, Part One). Thus it is likely the summonings and night-hunt happened between these two events.

Furthermore, we do not see any Nie sect members mentioned during the Discussion Conference at Qishan so unlike Lan Xichen, we cannot use that to say if he under or over twenty.

So the earliest Nie baba can die is after the disciple exchange at Gusu, so the year when the discussion conference at occurs. Taking the Nie Huaisang possible age ranges and compare the lowest bracket (16) to 19. That maximum age difference is 3.

Since Nie Mingjue is already sect leader when the Sunshot campaign begins, the youngest he can be then is 19 the year he turns 20 (Contentment, Part Three) which would be 1 year older than Nie Huaisang on the low end.

As for placing his death, it must occurs year after the First Siege on the Burial mound as he raced to yell at Jin Guangshan for his attempt to shelther Xue Yang (Dew, Part Three). An unknown amount of time after that, Jin Guangyao visits Nie Mingjue and the two come into conflict over Jin Guangshan's imprisonment rather than execution of Xue Yang after which two months Nie Mingjue dies (Guile Four and Five). This is likely then the year Xue Yang gets captured, the year after First Siege on the Burial Mounds.

In summary, Nie Mingjue is between 1 to 3 years older than Nie Huaisang depending on when you place when Nie baba's death. So he has the same age ranges as Lan Xichen without the limitation LXC has for the Qishan Indoctrination.

Gusu Exchange: 16-19

discussion conference at Qishan: 17 to 21

start of Sunshot Campaign: 16-22

Night-hunt at Phoenix Mt.: 20-26

Ambush at Qiongqi Path: 21-27

First Siege on the Burial Mounds: 21-28

Death: 22-28

If alive: Second Siege on the Burial Mounds: 35-40

comments

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[henshengs]

Au where Su She doesn't get kicked out of the Cloud Recesses

Ooh, good one! Let’s go mostly with show canon here.

1) so I think overall, changes to Su She’s fate just... wouldn’t affect any other members of the cast very much. And isn’t that the ultimate tragedy of his life? That he’s inherently interchangeable? He wants to be a Jin Guangyao or Wei Wuxian, someone who drastically alters the story just with his mere presence, but... he’s not and he never will be. There’s nothing about him that’s special. JGY cares about him, a lot I think, but not because of anything to do with Su She as a person. JGY just wants to be loved, and in an AU where they never met, he’d find someone else with class insecurity to manipulate into adoring him. Maybe without the Moling Su, he wouldn’t be able to use evil magic to depower everyone at the second Burial Mounds Seige, but he’s a resourceful guy, he’d have come up with something else.

You could argue that if Su She hadn’t given up the secret of the Cold Cave, the Wens wouldn’t have gotten their hands on LWJ and the Yin Iron, and Wei Wuxian would have either died in the turtle cave or escaped without the sword of eeeevil, but. Come on. The Wens really wanted that Iron, they weren’t going away, and there were loads of dead disciples and their headbands lying around. They would have figured it out eventually.

If Su Minshan never founds the Moling Su, that does make a difference to the people who joined his sect, who he taught even though they weren’t talented or wealthy. But being important to them wasn’t enough for him. 

2) if Su She doesn’t give up the secret because he makes it to the cave on time, LWJ still leaves the cave and gives himself up so his uncle and the others will be spared. Su She is left with Lan Qiren in the smoking ruins of Cloud Recesses. I’m not clear on exactly what happened after that- I assume the Wens left some soldiers there and occupied it for much of the rest of the war, and that they allowed LQR and the surviving disciples to leave, since they meet up with Wangji and Xichen later?

3) anyway: Su She fights in the war, and hates it, and ends up with even more fun trauma. He survives, and as a veteran of the Sunshot Campaign he gets a bit more respect. But he doesn’t do anything outstandingly heroic, doesn’t make his name, and he resents how much glory the Twin Jades accumulate.  How they seem untouched by all the death and horror.

4) After the war, Jin Guangyao visits Cloud Recesses to assist with the repairs. Su She has heard of the lowborn hero of Nightless City, and finds some way to meet him, maybe serving him or showing him around, and he takes the opportunity to express his admiration. Jin Guangyao is nice and respectful to him, because Jin Guangyao is nice and respectful to everyone, and maybe it leads to something more, but... I think probably not. Without that moment of seeing Su She disrespected the way JGY was often disrespected, JGY has no empathetic connection. And I think Su She in this universe, despite his secret resentments, is not disillusioned with the Lan. They never left him to die, so that initial loyalty of his that we see in canon the first time he is asked for the secret of the cave, that’s never broken. He still holds onto a hope of getting respect.

5) He’s still there at the Burial Mounds to get rhetorically murdered by Lan Wangji, he’s just in the Lan party this time instead of the Jin one. Since he’s with the Lans, he’d get first crack at pocketing some of Wei Wuxian’s notes, before Jin Guangyao gets there, so maybe he does stumble into demonic cultivation in this timeline, but I’m not sure what he’d do with it?

+bonus 6) After the events of the final episode, Su She becomes a secret Jin Guangyao truther. Obviously it was all a frame up to replace the Chief Cultivator with a supporter of the status quo.

[oh-dameron]

Imagine if WWX came back after thirteen years and found out that Jiang Cheng had died in the meantime.

There's a sense in the novel that while WWX doesn't have any memories of the time between his death and summoning to suggest he was experiencing anything in that time, there's a measure of distance there. He thinks about Yanli's death and what happened at the Burial Mounds as though it's something that he has had time to process. There are three months between the Nightless City pledge conference and his death, and it was described as the Seige of Burial Mounds so any way you swing it those were not three months that would have been restful or conducive to emotional healing. It's presented as an old wound, still painful but not gushing blood like it only just happened. He's not breaking down in grief or wracked with anger like he is toward the end of his first life- he's moved through the stages to accepting it. Even with his "forgetting injuries as soon as they heal" disposition (self-reported from an unreliable narrator so ymmv) that would be a remarkable emotional speedrun. So I think that's more or less what his spirit was doing in the meantime - processing his trauma and resentment (his own naturally-generated resentful energy, I'm not talking about anything to do with guidao or the tiger seal or anything) in preparation for moving on to the next life. He was a quiet, well-behaved spirit, who was also a world-class cultivator and master necromancer capable of metaphorically rolling over and ignoring the angry sects trying to summon his spirit back to be castigated. And equally likely to wander over to investigate one sad, lonely man calling him for help.

But still, Wei Wuxian version 2: grief? Accepted. Trauma? Processed. New life? Just beginning, so long as he stays far, far away from the sects. And then instead of running into Jiang Cheng on Dafan Mountain he learns that his shidi is dead. Jiang Cheng isn't out there in the world living his best life, serving cunt, and leading Lotus Pier: he died, and from all accounts, died hating Wei Wuxian. The grief is back, with claws and teeth.

Hanguangjun whomst? Ghost arm what? Zero fucks. Wei Wuxian has zero fucks for any of that, and if you think he's going to let you drag him back to Gusu when he has shit to do then you clearly weren't paying attention during his first life.

hard to explain what i mean, but a lot of wangxian content (both canon content and fanwork) has jiang cheng residue in it.

in a sense, the text of mdzs itself makes jiang cheng's existence essential for the wangxian ship dynamic. most immediately, he's the conflict-generating minor villain who shows up and presents enough of a threat to drive wei wuxian into lan wangji's arms. on a narrative level, he represents wei wuxian's past: he's the one surviving victim of wei wuxian's various questionable life decisions who gets enough narrative attention to be vocally angry and hurt about it; he's also the one surviving person from wei wuxian's past who hurt wei wuxian the most. lan wangji, meanwhile, represents wei wuxian's future: the one who will always stand by wei wuxian's side, the one who will always unconditionally love wei wuxian, in a way the novel repeatedly states jiang cheng failed to achieve. part of the whole appeal of wangxian is that it gives wei wuxian a refuge from his past and allows him to move on. and if wangxian's great thesis is that wei wuxian gets to move on from his past traumas and be happy, then on an existential level wangxian needs wei wuxian to have something to move on from to begin with.

or, to put it less abstractly. in mdzs novel canon, the wei wuxian who falls in love with lan wangji is also the wei wuxian who was betrayed by jiang cheng (and betrayed him in turn). the wei wuxian who follows lan wangji on this murder arm adventure mystery is also the wei wuxian studiously avoiding jiang cheng. and [the wei wuxian who was betrayed by jiang cheng] is not the same individual as [the wei wuxian lan wangji met at the cloud recesses]. especially since the time frame for the wangxian romance is so soon after wei wuxian's resurrection, the marks left by wei wuxian's epic-friendship-destruction with jiang cheng are still highly present in wei wuxian's character and behavior, and thus affect the shape wangxian takes in canon as well.

in other words, there's jiang cheng residue.

if you pruned jiang cheng out of the story somehow, or even if you made him disappear sometime during the 13 year timeskip--if you removed the residue, in other words--wangxian changes. of course, there are versions of wangxian that would not change (ie. the version in cql, since cql has wang and xian form a significant relationship before wei wuxian's relationship with jiang cheng implodes), or would change less. but in terms of just the novel canon, a certain flavoring of "i'm better than your asshole ex-bestie" often feels necessary in order to maximize fidelity to original-article wangxian.

if jiang cheng and wei wuxian never had their epically destructive platonic divorce, wangxian...could probably still happen. but it would be a very different kind of wangxian.

[multsicorn]

@greymouser13 replied to your post “thinkin about wen qing’s arc on one hand: she went from doing whatever...”

Yeah thats a novel change that could make more sense? In novel verse, most of the Wens stayed behind. They were slaughtered anyway but personal sacrifice saved not only Wei Wuxian, but her people too (or at least that was the goal). Someone can correct me, but i think there is like a 3 month gap between Wen Ning's "execution" and the nightless city massacre, and the seige of the burial mounds wherein everyone was slaughtered and Wei Wuxian (who had been going mad)

@greymouser13 replied to your post “thinkin about wen qing’s arc on one hand: she went from doing whatever...”

Destroyed half the tiger seal and was mauled to death by corpses.

@greymouser13 replied to your post “thinkin about wen qing’s arc on one hand: she went from doing whatever...”

This was all cut for time and the horror elements were of course softened/censored. I adore both versions but the novel one makes more sense for Wen Quing's story line.

Yeah, absolutely, the novel version of what happened with the rest of the Wen villagers made more sense!  (I mean, I said ‘unaccountably’ wrt her leading them to the Jin, but it makes perfect sense as a plot necessity - I don’t think Wei Wuxian’s throwing himself off that cliff if he still has people he needs to protect.  I just can’t fathom why she would do it - or why they’d insist on it!  All to protect the guy who’d saved them?  I mean, maybe, but, a whole village for one guy rubs me so very wrong!)  And then the Wen rising up from the blood pool later on in Wei Wuxian’s second life is one of my favorite novel-only bits.  THE BOND BETWEEN A NECROMANCER AND THE DEAD HE ‘MANCES ;___;.

Anyway there’s a lot of things I like about the way Wei Wuxian dies in CQL without the siege - and by ‘a lot of things’ I mean getting to see that cliff scene, Jiang Cheng stabbing the rock!!, Lan Wangji bleeding as he holds on, Wei Wuxian’s peaceful smile falling into the abyss ;___;, etc., but there were definitely a number of plot-related circles they did not manage to square in the adaptation, both for censorship-related reasons and not, and ‘so why did the Wen villagers die’ is one.  (What is the point/resonance of the ‘second siege of the Burial Mounds,’ and why the actual fuck do characters call it that out loud, when there was no first siege!, is a particularly glaring and relevant ‘nother.)

And I very much prefer Wen Qing’s story in the drama overall!  Mostly because there’s so much more of it - I’m so glad that we, and also the other characters, get to know her and Wen Ning at Cloud Recesses Summer Camp, and the Baling Lake adventure, and even the Dancing Peri adventure part one, poorly constructed as it is, and Wen Chao’s Evil Indoctrination Camp, (... doesn’t ‘indoctrination’ itself sound evil? or is this just a translation issue), all before the core transfer happens.

I adore the way that she’s trying to stay out of the Wen clan’s grasping for power, the way that she doesn’t want to work for Wen Ruohan or Wen Chao, but is also unwilling to secede from the clan.  *waves tiny Wen Qing/MianMian flag, lol*.  It’s such a good hard internal struggle... and it fits in just perfectly with the way she’s punished for being a Wen, later.  She struggled - even if vainly, remember the turtle cave - against the abuses that she saw, as much as she could, but not more, walking that line.  But she wouldn’t give up her clan allegiance, it matters to her... and she wouldn’t leave her followers behind... and ultimately it ends up counting against her, as the only thing that matters.

[somepinkthing]

the sects vs the yiling patriarch and the wens

I feel like jin zixuan's ambush was sort of the catalyst that dragged all of the resentment in the sects to light. That's where things really start to hurtling downhill for WWX's relationship with the cultivators so let's begin there.

First off, let's establish that everything that happened from ambush at qiongqi path to the siege of the burial mounds 100% counts as war. The jin sect ambushed wei wuxian during peacetime while he was visiting family, murdered his two closest friends over it, and were just concluding a conference where they pledged to attack the burial mounds and kill everyone there when wwx attacked. They declared war, they just won't admit it. Am I saying that means WWX is innocent? No. While I have my doubts that he killed 3000 cultivators at the nightless city, I imagine he managed to kill a lot of them. However, it wasn't like it was unexpected. Jin guangshan and the pledged sects 100% should have expected an attack. Or if they'd managed to launch their attack first (which was the plan) they should have expected massive resistance. If they were actually shocked and not just playing the victim card then they're idiots. No one would just quietly let you kill them and all their friends. But history belongs to the victors and so the nightless city and koi tower events were unprovoked massacres on innocent cultivators. But the attack on qiongqi path was a strategic ambush and the final battle on the burial mounds was a collective seige. There was also never a war, they were just... apprehending criminals

And honestly? Maybe they were to some people. The sect leaders and elders can shut their mouths, but to others? Everyday cultivators who only know what they're told and have no reason to question their leaders? That may well be the truth, especially to the ones who weren't at the conference. From their angle, wei wuxian was the villain who marched into a conference full of cultivators, lost himself in a rage, and just started killing people they knew. These cultivators were innocent soldiers who just followed orders because that's all that was within their power to do and they didn't deserve to have their lives cut short like that. They were someone's family and the yiling patriarch took them from this world. Anyways, why should they care about a group of wens when they looked the other way for wen ruohan? So many people died because they didn't even try to stop their leader, why shouldn't they face consequences for that?

And yet, from another angle, wei wuxian was the protector and close friend of a small clan of non-combatant civilians, one of which was a toddler, who'd never had any power to do anything about wen ruohan. The man was practically an emperor, powerful enough that even the sect leaders had looked the other way for him right up until the sunshot campaign. What could a bunch of civilians have done? To them, wei wuxian was the man who freed them from a work camp. They never even sought revenge for what had happened to them, instead trying to peacefully recover on land that no one wanted. And yet they were still targeted and declared war on. So their leader reacted by going to confront the sects head at a war council and it went (very) badly when he was attacked. In this version, those innocent cultivators now look like bloodthirsty glory-seekers who were all for commiting their own massacre on people they knew couldn't fight back over a handful of rumors, but balked at having to face consequences for their choices.

What's the truth? That depends on which side you look at it from. In truth, both sides are right. Why would the family of those cultivators who died see it any other way? What would be the point of forcing them to see the other side? But the wens were civilians and were attacked first. Why should they have cared that a bunch of cultivators who were coming to kill them had been killed first? Whether or not that justifies wwx's actions depends on which side you look at it from. Wei wuxian killed those cultivators at the nightless city, make no mistake. Justified or not, that's a whole fact that you will never erase. However, that the great cultivation sects gathered to kill a bunch of workers, elderly folk, and a child over something as petty as a power struggle and were preparing to make the first strike had wwx not come to them are also facts.

It's entirely possible there is no right or wrong side in this whole scenario. JGS was evil af. The wen clan were innocent in this scenario. But the others? It gets blurry. The whole situation gets blurry.