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andreal831 · 6 months ago

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Honestly, if I had to be honest, I could never get myself to like Hayley even after all she went through. Like I believe in karma and the very fact that she tried to build a family with Klaus after they both mutually destroyed Tyler's life - and they could never end up being the proper family they wanted with Hope in the end. Same could also be said about her betraying the hybrids yet going to NOLA where the Crescent Pack - cursed to be wolves every day except for one night - with members that have either betrayed her or got killed fighting battles not theirs for the sake of "loyalty" (I will also mention the Crescent Curse meant they were isolated from the werewolf grapevine outside of NOLA, so Hayley arrived with a blank slate). We - or I - still don't even have outright confirmation that she knew Oliver was the one who killed Eve, her only surviving relative. So even if it wasn't just Tyler, karma was always at Hayley's heel when her actions led to something horrific that she had to pay for.

But I think the reason why I dislike her is for Hope's sake. Yes, Hayley protected her and put her first first - but I think she was still selfish about it. We hear nothing about the years Hope was growing up on the road, like was she always stuck in a safehouse or did she interact with normal people. And on that note, we never got a clear reason why Hayley just packed up and left and didn't bring any Crescent members - who have the abilities of a hybrid (which is a joke when they got slaughtered easily) - even if Mary vouched for them. That doesn't make sense unless what I mentioned above about the Crescents being isolated comes into play and Hayley was worried about hypothetical pack members learning about what she's done before coming to NOLA and didn't want to chance anything (another thing, Tyler was still living while Hayley was looking for pack venom, so his possible influence with North America packs would have been an interesting hindrance to see).

So, if I'm not being clear, for going to a new state with virtually no one knowing her past misdeeds and those who did either being dead (I believe Jackson knew via truth ritual) or indisposed (the Mikaelsons), Hayley had to have struggled getting help because of being in relations with the Mikaelsons, the mother of Klaus's daughter, and an old friend-turned-enemy they stupidly left alive knowing he knew enough information to have packs turning her away. And how does this relate to Hope? Because if Hayley and Klaus have zero love in the werewolf community and know the truth, why would they trust Hope? I imagine the open invitation from the community by just being werewolf-affiliated or having the curse doesn't fall on Hope because her parents' treatment with werewolves...and that's if you had decent writing and proper consequences at work.

Also, in a previous ask, you said sending Hope to Salvatore made no sense..but it actually does if you wanna wager that the School Pack being made up of werewolves that either had no idea of their werewolf curse until triggered or lost their pack early in life would have no idea who Hope was or what her family is to werewolf current history, so like Hayley and the Crescents, Hope has a clean break at gaining the trust of werewolves who don't have anything to affiliate her with. And sending Hope to Salvatore also makes sense if you wanna also add in the fact perhaps certain Crescents may have felt bitter towards Hayley and it could have gone down to Hope. It probably did get better with time if Hope left to eat crawfish with them, but there's probably some distance given everything that happened. And then following how Hope used Henry - a fellow Crescent - by helping him become a hybrid and didn't do what was necessary like break the sirebond or help him gain control, and when that wasn't enough, kidnapping Hayley - the only parent in her life - just to get Klaus's attention, which led to the mess in S5...

Then, yes, I can't have it in myself care about Hayley. Just, she's a mom who's gonna do whatever it takes to do right by Hope but there's so many underlying things that sabotage her efforts. I get Hayley wanted to give her child a mom that always forgives her, but she dealt with Klaus's BS for years - so she should have doubled down on this behavior as soon as it was evidentiary. And furthering back, she's only acting out - and using people, as Mikaelsons do - because of Klaus. Klaus Mikaelson, who we watched for 3 seasons have several people reassure his relationship with Hope was solid and he could be a good dad only to foil it when Hope got a glimpse of the man everyone hated - and the one to even inspire Hope to love him to begin with was Hayley, so she looks like an idiot because Hope's 7 years of wanting his attention is technically on her because she encouraged this when Hope only had her to rely on. If Hayley's only redeeming quality was being a good mom to Hope, she would have: said "screw The Hollow", got Rebekah to track Klaus down, got on the first plane and dragged him back to Hope to explain himself because as bad as her child being possessed by her evil ancestors is, making her child feel unloved and unwanted (the very things Hayley promised her she wouldn't feel on the day she was born) was even worse and should have taken more precedence.

And if I had to warrant it, this is what got Hayley killed: If not staying by the Mikaelsons side and fighting for them, it's by half-assing things with Hope so badly - not being truthful about the real world, not preparing her for the consequences of Klaus's and her actions, kicking Klaus's ass in gear sooner - that the kid had to act like a Mikaelson, running her own childhood, and Hayley's head got put on the cutting board as a result.

(I'm so sorry, this came out harsher than I intended - I edited a lot but still came out this way. I care for Hope, but have responsibility where it lies, but if I had to blame anyone for orchestrating how Hope of S5 came to be, I blame Hayley - and Freya because I think she might have been undermining her parenting behind her back.)

Hi love, I know this is an old ask. Sorry, I'm just now responding. I know we discussed it a little already but I wanted to make sure I responded fully!

I personally don't believe in karma, especially in the context of TVDU. If anyone had karma coming for them, Hayley honestly wouldn't be high on the list. We are dealing with people who have been serial killers for decades/centuries/millennium. Yes, Hayley did some truly terrible things, but she learned and grew. I don't blame Tyler for his hatred to Hayley and Klaus and even how he went after them. But if we are saying that Hayley's karma is why she couldn't have a proper family in the end, why did Damon get one? Why did Caroline? Why did Kol get to get married to Davina? Or Rebekah and Marcel? They have all done equally (mostly worse) than Hayley. Why didn't Bonnie get her happy ending? Or Jenna? Or Cami? Or Eve? Karma can't play a role in TVDU because we are dealing with terrible people as the 'heroes' where the innocents are sacrificed as plot devices.

I think the only reason Hayley didn't bring anyone with her when she ran was because she had to get out of there quickly. She also never wanted her pack to sacrifice their lives for her. Jackson had just been killed because of his attachment to her. She wasn't going to risk anyone else for her. I wish the show would have gone more into the pack politics because I can't believe Oliver was the only pack member who had issues with Hayley's relationships with the Mikaelsons. This also could have played a part in it. She knew she would spend the next few years of her life doing anything to get the Mikaelsons back. This probably wouldn't be super popular with the pack.

The pack wouldn't have cared about her past. Let's be honest, they were not the most noble pack. They were ready to turn on each other and any one else for power. I don't think they would have cared that she got 12 random wolves killed to find them when they were willing to kill each other over moon rings.

We don't know what was happening during the time jump, but we can assume they didn't have much interaction with the outside world. This is something we know Hayley feels badly about since she argues with Klaus about keeping her isolated in New Orleans. Hayley understands what it is to grow up alone and never wanted that for Hope. But even more than that, she wants Hope safe. If we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, the first two bases of the pyramid are physiological needs (food and shelter) and safety. These come before social needs. I wish we could have seen more of this time and seen the conflicts she may have run into while trying to bring the Mikaelsons back. As you said, Tyler could have played a role or even just Hayley's reputation with the Mikaelsons.

You say that Hayley had no love from the wolves, but that isn't true. Hayley was still very respected with the packs that she ran with when she was young. We see this in season 3 when she and Klaus run into them. It would have been nice to see Hayley go back to them during the time jump and reconnect with her werewolf side as well as having Hope around other wolves. The Crescent Pack also still respects Hayley which is why she can come back after five years and still rebuild leading up to season 5.

Yes, Hayley got 12 wolves killed. But this is not going to destroy her relationship with the packs even if they all know. She isn't the only wolf to do this. We see Tyler get wolves killed when he sides with the MF Gang. Or the fact that when we are first introduced to wolves, Jules and her pack are willing to throw Tyler under the bus in order to get the moonstone. The wolves have zero loyalty to other wolves and have wavering loyalty to their own packs. It's no wonder Hayley behaved the way she did.

Now, the pack trusting Hope is interesting. I haven't watched Legacies but I've seen enough edits to know Hope does go back to NOLA and interact with the wolves. And they don't trust her. I think she even beheads one of them (and we are supposed to think it's badass or something??). Hope basically has to tell them that they shouldn't want a monarchy or even a hierarchy of alphas. But to your point, most of the Crescent fighting was generational because of this hierarchy. Hope didn't need to earn their respect because they operated as a monarchy -- which is the problem with monarchies.

I still hold that sending Hope to the Salvator School made no sense. You point out that it gives her a fresh start with the wolves, but when she was there initially, I don't think they even knew she was a wolf. She was Hope Marshall, a normal, average witch. In the few episodes I watched of Legacies, she doesn't seem to be forming any connections with the wolves. We never see any sign that the Crescents feel bitter towards Hope or Hayley until Hope turns one of them into a hybrid. Which is something that could have been prevented if Hope had been raised in New Orleans and learned about the faction issues. She would have had a better understanding of the Crescent Wolves. It also would have set her up better if she did want to be Alpha one day.

Hayley was a young mom put into an impossible situation. It was only made worse by every other member of Hope's family. You are placing the blame of Hope's behavior because of Klaus' neglect on Hayley. Kids misbehave. It's inevitable. Especially ones with werewolf tempers and absentee fathers. If you agree that sending Hope to the Salvator School was the right option, we really should be blaming Alaric for not being more aware or even Caroline who was at the school in season 5. If anything, I blame Hayley for sending Hope to the school. She would have never let Hope behave the way Alaric did. As soon as she heard, she went straight to the school and pulled Hope home. She made sure Hope knew it was wrong, but still felt supported and loved. Hayley also immediately began attempting to clean up her 15 year old's mess, as any good mom would do.

Hayley also never encouraged Klaus to stay away. She constantly wrote to him and even sent Caroline after him to make him listen. She is not his keeper. It was his choice to stay away. It was not her job to make a deadbeat dad be a parent. She tried to make Hope feel her father's love through stories and reinforcing always and forever, but she couldn't jeopardize Hope's safety. But to your statement, she can't win. Her telling Hope Klaus loved her only served to encourage Hope to fight for a relationship with her dad. But if she had poisoned Hope against Klaus so that Hope wouldn't even care that he abandoned her, that would be problematic too. Hayley didn't even know why Klaus stopped talking to Hope. He just disappeared one day. And when Klaus wants to stay gone, he does. But no, sorry, Hope's emotions were not more important than her life. Which is why every single Mikaelsons agreed to separate in order to protect Hope's safety.

You put the entirety of the Mikaelson burden on Hayley. Hayley was an excellent mother and gave Hope a chance to be a child. Klaus is the reason Hope felt unloved. Klaus is the reason Hope kidnapped Hayley and Hayley ended up dead. He couldn't cope with being a father and abandoned Hope, leaving Hayley to be a single mother with only the support of Freya. If anyone is to blame for season 5, it is Klaus. Which is the theme of the show. The Mikaelsons are their own undoing and anyone who gets caught up with them pays the price.

Sure, Hayley could have raised Hope to be a warrior. Trapped her in a house and raised her to train and fight and be ready for all of Klaus' enemies. But how would she be any different than Mikael? Mikael wanted to raise warriors so he neglected and abused his children. Or how Klaus 'raised' Marcel. All of these children grew up to resent their upbringing. Hayley wasn't going to do that. Hope deserved a childhood. Every child does. Children should not pay the price for their parents. This is shown in season 4 when Hayley stops Freya from torturing Keelin. We see numerous times that Klaus supports this. He also wants to protect Hope's innocents. Which is why he gets mad at Freya for helping with the Chambre in season 5 or when Freya tries to help suppress her wolf side. At the end of the day, Klaus and Hayley are Hope's parents and they are on the same page. They wanted their child to have the life they didn't.

And all of this would have worked out great had Klaus not abandoned Hope. If Klaus had stayed in contact with Hope and continued to try and find a solution for the Hollow, Hope could have had a safe and happy childhood. At the end of the day, Klaus was the problem and Hayley was just working with what she had to give her daughter the best possible life. Something Hope appreciated and loved Hayley for.

Thanks for the ask!

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