#LIKE. DO YOU UNDERSTAND???? NONE OF THE SIBLINGS IN ASOIAF ARE GOOD. NONE OF THEM. THEY'RE ALL SO TRAGIC. SO COMPELLING THOUGH | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

vivacissimx · 3 years ago

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lyanna stark, a drop of the wolf-blood, & the pragmatism underneath

the youngest we see lyanna (in my estimation), is this vision from bran

Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn't be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. "You be quiet, stupid," the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. "It's just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?" She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool

- Bran III, ADWD

but four books earlier, we see this quote from ned:

Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it

- Arya II, AGOT

so we know that that ned was close enough to lyanna to know that she enjoyed swordplay, close enough to know her desires and to know that rickard would never accept this (for whatever reason).

...but not close enough to be the one she practiced sworldplay with in secret. the picture this paints is telling. lyanna was explicitly banned from something, and chose to pursue it in a secret and harmless way, with someone she trusted.

but ned isn't privy to that information. whether because he wasn't around, or because lyanna thought he would disapprove, or because he just thought it was childish - either way, we see that lyanna is picky about who she trusts, bred out of having to be sneaky in achieving her goals under her strict father's nose. she even identifies old nan as a snitch (et tu brute?). clever kid.

lyanna has other hobbies, too. she loves flowers. she loves riding horses.

"You ride like a northman, milady," Harwin said when he'd drawn them to a halt. "Your aunt was the same. Lady Lyanna. But my father was master of horse, remember."

- Arya III, ASOS

[Brandon] loved to ride. His little sister took after him in that. A pair of centaurs, those two.

- The Turncloak, ADWD

Horses … [Domeric] was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself.

- Reek III, ADWD

worth mentioning, imo, that even though lyanna was an excellent rider, she couldn't beat domeric. this is paralelled with arya, who is great on horseback, but not faster than harwin the son of winterfell's master of horse. this isn't a case of 'not like other girls' syndrome, of mary sues who are magically the best there ever was. conversely, adversity doesn't scare either of them off - lyanna was clearly competitive, with domeric and likely with brandon before him, and it all added up to her being remembered as a fantastic horserider despite effectively leaving the north at 14.

so lyanna is determined. she's willful, to hear ned say it.

then, of course, we have this

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart.

Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

- Eddard IX, AGOT

this seems fairly clear cut, but let's break down this conversation:

lyanna (told the news by the authoritative father; being approached by ned, the sibling who is best friends with the guy in question; thirteen years old): he will never keep to one bed. he has a bastard already, on a common girl he cannot marry which speaks to his character

ned: it isn't robert's actions that matter, it's his feelings. *crickets on lyanna's feelings*

now lyanna is thirteen. but she already recognizes that this is a losing battle. why? because she can't change robert?

no. because she cannot change the minds of rickard, or of ned.

there is no doubt in my mind that both these men loved her. but do they listen to her? clearly not.

lyanna doesn't bother to fight this fight she cannot win. she just smiles, realizing that rickard/ned are not going to hear her out on this, and gets the last word with "love does not change a man's nature."

this isn't the divide between lyanna and robert - this is the moment of divide between lyanna and ned. they're siblings who love each other, and love is sweet, but none of that changes that ned is on rickard and robert's side. it's a rough moment for a teenage girl. she was right earlier, she must realize - benjen is the brother she can trust.

so lyanna is determined, but she is pragmatic.

the next time we see lyanna, she's kicking ass at harrenhal.

[...]they heard a roar. “That’s my father’s man you’re kicking!” howled the she-wolf…

The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. The crannogman was bruised and bloodied, so she took him back to her lair to clean his cuts and bind them up with linen.

- Bran II, ASOS

here is where lyanna really shines.

she has a moral code all her own, we already know this from her assessment of robert's child that differed from how catelyn views bastards disconnected from the home.

she dislikes bullies, which is fairly common (jaime hated bullies growing up, for example) but for some reason at this very moment, she also has a tourney sword in hand - why? well, because lyanna stark takes her opportunities when she has them. barred from swordplay? that's fine, dad, but when you're not looking is another story.

she doesn't go rushing in, nor does she ignore the scene. she watches long enough to see if howland can fight them off (he can't), giving her time to identify him as a crannogman - possibly even as a highborn crannogman. and then what does she do? she weighs her options, decides that she can probably beat the bullies, and does so. then she takes care of howland reed, picking him up like she picked benjen out of the water in bran's vision.

[T]here was to be a feast in Harrenhal, to mark the opening of the tourney, and the she-wolf insisted that the lad attend. He was of high birth, with as much right to a place on the bench as any other man.

- Bran II, ASOS

she claims his rights as a highborn lord to attend. he doesn't have clothes, nor does howland insist that he can go, but lyanna makes a reasoned argument that howland has every right to attend and that surely benjen can find him some clothes!

so lyanna is determined, pragmatic, and a problem-solver.

[T]he Knight of the Laughing Tree spoke in a booming voice through his helm, saying “Teach your squires honour, and that shall be ransom enough.” Once the defeated knights chastised their squires sharply, their horses and armour were returned.

- Bran II, ASOS

here, lyanna displays a trait that sets her apart. howland memorizes the face of his bullies. he wants to "revenge" himself on them. but lyanna does not go directly for the bullies, she challenges the lords to whom the bullies squire, and commands them to chastise their squires.

lyanna understands the chivalric system she lives in, and that she will not be listened to (how? her own father and brother don't listen to her!), so she figures out another way to get justice that plays on the very ideas of might & honor that exclude the weak. she is confident in her abilities (being experienced riding at rings), gathers up all the material she needs, and takes a calculated risk.

she manipulates the system, plainly. she plays the players at their own game and wins.

and she does it for a guy she met a few days ago.

lyanna is determined, pragmatic, a problem-solver, and ascribes to a moral code that is all her own, one that rejects societal hypocrisy.

You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch.

- Arya II, AGOT

so how do we square this away? lyanna was wolf-blooded. she was wild. she was untameable.

or was she?

any girl/woman with half a personality gets described as "spirited" or "willful" or "stubborn" in asoiaf. it's a polite of saying "hard to control." we see several times that lyanna takes a measured approach to matters. she is brave, yes, but she is also thoughtful and chooses her battles with the information she has. when she is denied something for no reason beyond her gender and status, she finds a way to pursue her interests regardless.

but robert is something lyanna can't avoid. and that had to rankle her, the betrothal she is determined to avoid, but pragmatically cannot due to her family's insistence. the marriage that goes against her moral code (i'm sure lyanna noted that robert gladly volunteered to capture the KOTLT, regardless of what punishment might be given down by a deranged aerys).

[i'm going to skip over her relationship with rhaegar, because there isn't enough/any text to analyze that explicitly deals with their dynamic post-harrenhal. speculation isn't the point of this post. suffice to say she saw in him something she did not in her family or robert.]

then aerys burns her father and brother.

could rhaegar have stopped aerys once he made up his mind? we as readers know the answer is no. grrm says so much himself, that it was aerys who kicked off the war in this interview:

The Mad King was mad. He was paranoid and violent and he was abusing his power... [Robert's Rebellion] was triggered by[...]the execution of Ned’s father and brother, it was the thing that radicalized, as we would have said in the 60s, Ned and it put him in opposition to it. Robert was just rolling for a fight and it might affect that he’d lost his girlfriend.

the absolute power of kings is continuously critiqued in the series.

so how did lyanna react? of course she grieved deeply. even if she knew that she would likely not see her family again for several years at least, for them to die in such a terrible manner is horrifying.

but lyanna has been forged into pragmatism. she looked at the squires beating up howland and saw that the issue was not the bullies, but the corrupt, lazy lords they squired for.

why would she not be able to see that aerys's abuse of power was what had killed her own family? she's realistic and she's a moral actor and she understands the social system around her. whatever her opinion on feudal lordship before, abuse of power has now killed two people she loved. only extrapolation can say how she would react, but given that we see her in similar situations - it is safe to say that the she understands the removal of aerys from power is a necessity, and that a king who is ruled by his urges is unfit.

[lyanna doesn't have the highest opinion of robert, does she? would she think him fit to be a king? doubtful.]

however, she also wants her family to be safe - a family which is now going to include her unborn baby.

[Ned] could hear her still at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave her his word, the fear had gone out of his sister's eyes. Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black

- Eddard I, AGOT

the promise she solicited from ned is to care for baby jon, presumably.

more importantly, in this final conversation, lyanna is putting all her trust in ned.

this moment is a tragic one, but it is also a cathartic one. whatever has happened, and there is plenty of difficulty between ned and lya at this point, they are putting that to the side and affirming what matters most: their love and loyalty to one another, not in service to house stark, or to any king or cause, but to each other as lyanna and ned.

ned didn't listen before, but he promises her now. lyanna didn't confide in him before, but she does now. yes she's on her deathbed, but this is powerful anyway. it's a healing moment for them both, one lyanna held on for even though by all means she could have trusted the kingsguard to whisk baby jon away earlier and succumbed to the pain.

lyanna doesn't spend her last moments begging for forgiveness or explaining herself. she spends her last moments trying to solve the problem of jon's safety, of her son's life. even at the end, she is determined that he will live.

she dies fearless. she smiles, maybe the same way she smiled in winterfell when ned told her robert would be a good husband and she saw the love in ned's words but not the respect. a bittersweet smile, because jon will survive but she won't see it.

"She should be on a hill somewhere, under a fruit tree, with the sun and clouds above her and the rain to wash her clean."

"I was with her when she died," Ned reminded the king. "She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father."

- Eddard I, AGOT

this is our actual introduction to lyanna, when robert and ned initially visit her in the crypts. given everything we know, it's so fitting - robert is displeased with her gravesite. he never got what he wanted (his manic pixie dream girl </3), and even in death he doesn't like her grave.

lyanna was never the person robert projected her to be. in her crypt, she's still defiant against him/what he symbolizes. her determination, her wishes, her home, they all shine through.

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna. Her brother Brandon stood beside her, and their father Lord Rickard just behind.

- Theon V, ACOK

in the end, lyanna's close to her family (even by their side in theon's dreams). she's close to brandon, rickard, ned, old nan, everyone she ever knew growing up, and most importantly: to jon. it's a romantic ending for a minor character, a character grrm clearly cherished when he wrote.

the point of this post is that i want to leave behind the idea of lyanna stark as this harbinger of tragedy. the woman who ruined every man who looked into her eyes (robert, ned, rhaegar) and is now turned to stone. lyanna stark isn't written as a cautionary tale, as a romanticized medusa - instead, her memory lives on in a son who doesn't know her but still loves her, in how the people she knew remember her for what she actually loved, and even in lyanna mormont (a fitting namesake). there's defiance and meaning in that.

i could never say it better, so have hélène cixous's banger to round out my thoughts on lyanna:

You only have to look at the Medusa straight on to see her. And she’s not deadly. She’s beautiful and she’s laughing.

#lyanna stark #asoiaf meta #valyrian scrolls #lyannaweek2021 #ned stark #long post #text #in this house we do not respect the idea that women are spoiled or wrong for choosing themselves <3

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sansacherie · 4 years ago

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Lmao I saw that post of Sansa being too classist for Westerosi standards. Infact in that thread, Idk whether it was the same user or not they also said that AGOT Sansa even makes Theon look like a saint 😂.

I agree with you all characters in ASOIAF are classist to varying degrees even smallfolk POV like Davos have internalised it to some extent.

LOL, that’s so funny. Honestly, the OP was clearly letting off some steam and wasn’t thinking about everything they were writing.�� Like, there’s a reason why you keep your diaries private - because sometimes you’ll write in them when you’re mad, and you’ll say really stupid things. So I’m going to give OP the benefit of the doubt and assume that if they could reevaluate - they honestly won’t think that AGOT Sansa is worse than ACOK Theon who,

- Raped Kyra

- Was complicit in the murder of two smallfolk children

- Treated the Capitan’s Daughter dismally; not bothering to learn her name, using his position to take advantage of her sexually, and making light of the fact that her father is going to punish her for sleeping with him.

- His limp body was being dragged from the surf when Theon returned to his Sea Bitch. The masts of his longships stood outlined against the sky along the pebbled beach. Of the fishing village, nothing remained but cold ashes that stank when it rained. The men had been put to the sword, all but a handful that Theon had allowed to flee to bring the word to Torrhen's Square. Their wives and daughters had been claimed for salt wives, those who were young enough and fair. The crones and the ugly ones had simply been raped and killed, or taken for thralls if they had useful skills and did not seem likely to cause trouble.

Like, Theon is a great character and Alfie Allen’s portrayal of him is tremendous - but he did some pretty messed up shit! Now, whenever or not he is capable of redemption is another question. I mean, rape and murder are pretty unforgivable and the only people who could forgive Theon for that, are dead. This is what makes Theon’s Dance arc so compelling amongst all the horror and despair. Theon can never erase the worst things he ever did, but his rescue of Jeyne Poole shows that he can do some good by putting someone else first.

And getting back to Sansa.... honestly, how is Sansa too classist “even for Westeros” when she’s been a hostage and then masquerading as a bastard girl, and thus without the power of people like Tywin, Tyrion, and Tyrells? I’m sorry, but Sansa wasn’t the one who demanded that a woman be stripped naked and made to walk the streets because she wore her mother’s jewels. Would Sansa be angry at her father’s mistress wearing something that belonged to her mother? Yes, of course, she would- all the Starklings would; Arya IMO would take it particularly badly. But both Sansa and her siblings lack the sadism that drove Tywin to this; to assert his power over someone with none.

I can do this because I am the Lord of Casterly Rock, and you are nothing but a lowborn woman who was simply lucky enough to catch my foolish father’s eye.

Tyrion resents the smallfolk because they don’t consider him a hero. Some of his resentment is justifiable because a lot of it is the consequences of ableism, but at the same time though - the smallfolk are the ones suffering because of the war. In contrast, Sansa was almost raped by some smallfolk men but we never see her hating them for it. At 12-14, she’s able to understand the desperation caused by the famine.

In both the book and show Sansa says if she had bread, she would have given it. Essentially, if she could help she would. This brings me to the Tyrells. So, the Tyrells closed the Rose Road while they were still allied with Renly, thus leading to the famine in KL. To give you a reminder of how bad it got-

What little produce he did see was three times as costly as it had been a year ago. One peddler was hawking rats roasted on a skewer. "Fresh rats," he cried loudly, "fresh rats." Doubtless fresh rats were to be preferred to old stale rotten rats. The frightening thing was, the rats looked more appetizing than most of what the butchers were selling. On the Street of Flour, Tyrion saw guards at every other shop door. When times grew lean, even bakers found sellswords cheaper than bread, he reflected.

Afterwards, when the Tyrells and Lannisters decide to hook up, the Rose Road is opened up and wagons of food is sent up in Margaery’s name. If there’s one thing the Tyrells are good at, it’s PR. It undoubtedly makes them look like heroes, as Sansa and Tyrion both observe-

Sansa had watched from the castle walls as Margaery Tyrell and her escort made their way up Aegon's High Hill. Joffrey had met his new bride-to-be at the King's Gate to welcome her to the city, and they rode side by side through cheering crowds, Joff glittering in gilded armor and the Tyrell girl splendid in green with a cloak of autumn flowers blowing from her shoulders. She was sixteen, brown-haired and brown-eyed, slender and beautiful. The people called out her name as she passed, held up their children for her blessing, and scattered flowers under the hooves of her horse. Her mother and grandmother followed close behind, riding in a tall wheelhouse whose sides were carved into the shape of a hundred twining roses, every one gilded and shining. The smallfolk cheered them as well.The same smallfolk who pulled me from my horse and would have killed me, if not for the Hound.

"No. She's coming, though, and the city's mad with love for her. The Tyrells have been carting food up from Highgarden and giving it away in her name. Hundreds of wayns each day. There's thousands of Tyrell men swaggering about with little golden roses sewn on their doublets, and not a one is buying his own wine. Wife, widow, or whore, the women are all giving up their virtue to every peach-fuzz boy with a gold rose on his teat."They spit on me, and buy drinks for the Tyrells.

The thing is I personally can’t imagine having the audacity to present myself as some kind of hero to someone because I gave them food, knowing full well I was the reason were starving in the first place.

#sansa stark #theon greyjoy #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #anti tyrion lannister #anti tywin lannister #anti house tyrell #not bothering to tag anti theon because like i dont think its necessary lol #asks

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megashadowdragon · 3 years ago

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In the upcoming The Winds of Winter many characters we've come to know and love are going to intersect with each other. Their personalities and backstories are going to collide and the result of the concoction is going to vary from character to character.

In this thread, I'm going to touch on the interactions between two individuals that, weirdly enough, don't seem to get a lot of attention from the fandom in regards to how a potential interaction between the two might go down.

These two being Tyrion Lannister and Victarion Greyjoy.

On examination, there couldn't be two characters more different than each other. In a way, they're almost perfect foils to each other. Before I get into any foreshadowing indicated in the text of the books, I think it be best if I laid down some of these differences to give you guys an idea:

Tyrion has a sharp mind and uses this to great effect in understanding people's motivations and the politics surrounding them. Victarion is described as a "dullard" and "dumb as a stump" by GRRM himself, with not much knowledge or interest in the ways of greater politics.

Tyrion uses his wit to make jokes to entertain himself and those around him. Victarion heavily dislikes humor and it's even indicated in the text that he "mistrusts laughter".

Tyrion is a small, stunted dwarf with not much in the way of physical prowess. Victarion is a tall, muscular man who is a renowned warrior with great strength.

Tyrion regularly dismisses and mocks the idea of gods existing, thinking that all the suffering in the world proves that no gods are looking out for anyone.

If there are gods to listen, they are monstrous gods who torment us for their sport. Who else would make a world like this, so full of bondage, blood, and pain? Who else would shape us as they have? - Tyrion ADWD

Victarion is an extremely devout religious man that believes that the suffering in life is the proof of a god existing.

Life is pain, you fool. There is no joy but in the Drowned God’s watery halls. - The Iron Suitor ADWD

Now, I've listed these differences to give an idea on how these two could easily be connected as foils to each other, but surprisingly there's also some similarities between the two that connects them further:

Both Tyrion and Victarion have murdered former lovers of theirs after they betrayed them by sleeping with a family member. Victarion kills his wife after sleeping with his brother Euron and Tyrion murders Shae after she sleeps with his father Tywin. Both using their own hands to do it. (Tyrion strangling Shae and Victarion beating his wife to death with his fists).

Both were betrayed by their brother and have a desire to seek vengeance against them and destroy them.

Both have met Moqorro at sea and Moqorro has stated prophecies to both of them.

Both have fought and commanded in naval warfare. Both utilising fire in a naval battle (Tyrion with wildfire at the Blackwater and Victarion throwing the first torch onto Tywin's ship at the burning of Lannisport).

Both are seeking out Daenerys to use her for vengeance against their family. Tyrion with his siblings and his father's legacy and Victarion against his brother Euron.

So, now that the differences and similarities between the two characters have been established, I'll move onto what an interaction between these two might entail and what purpose it would serve.

The Monkey Demon

“We have become swollen, bloated, foul. Brother couples with sister in the bed of kings, and the fruit of their incest capers in his palace to the piping of a twisted little monkey demon.” A preacher at King's Landing ACOK.

“The dwarf, the evil counselor, the twisted little monkey demon. I’m all that stands between them and chaos.” - Tyrion ACOK

Tyrion Lannister, the monkey demon. Once tried to save a city and gain the people's love, found none and was promptly punted into a cell. Tried to work in his family interests, even if it meant defending the crown of a worm-lipped tyrant born out of incest, was turned on and blamed for the tyrant's downfall. Tried to find love in the arms of a whore and found out whores don't play fair (or where they go). All attempts, all that effort to seek validation had blown up in his face.

So, what's left?

The game of thrones, of course. You know, the very game that produces complete sociopaths like Varys and Petyr Baelish. With every other avenue denied to him, what else would be left for our favourite pampered lil shit Tyrion Lannister?

A man who's been denied everything and who has now found a re-newed purpose in life through a game of manipulation and deception. An individual with obligations no longer holding him down. No family to support, no love from the masses to be gained, nothing. All that's left is to engage in a game where self-gratification can be bought and the chance to tear down the old ghosts that persistently haunt him.

I won't engage too much into the finer details of Tyrion's character arc, but I highly recommend reading this excellent essay meereeneseblot . wordpress . com/2013/11/22/paying-his-debts-part-i-tyrion-in-kings-landing/ to better understand where Tyrion's arc will be going into TWOW.

So, our favourite dwarf finds himself traveling (waddling) to Meeren, hoping to seek the favour of the beautiful Queen Daenaerys Targaryen. Under siege with dubious allies and dragons you want to use to burn down your family's legacy, but they're too busy swarming the air like horny mosquitos...

But.... what's this? Ironborn swarming ashore? What the fuc-... With a complete donkey-brain of a captain leading them and who's just ready to be manipulated, you say? AND he wants to use Daenarys for his own ends too?

Muy bueno.

Now, to get to the point of the essay.

The Iron Captain

The Drowned God had not shaped Victarion Greyjoy to fight with words at kingsmoots, nor struggle against furtive sneaking foes in endless bogs. This was why he had been put on earth; to stand steel-clad with an axe red and dripping in his hand, dealing death with every blow. - The Reaver AFFC

So, I've showcased that Victarion Greyjoy's character is not one to dabble in higher politics or any other high-minded thinking. He's a man bred for splitting an enemy's skull in two with his axe, not someone trying to worm his way into people's confidences with false charm to achieve their own ends. Unfortunately for him, he's about to come across somebody who is.

A monkey on the mast above howled derision, almost as if it could taste his frustration. Filthy, noisy beast. He could send a man up after it, but the monkeys seemed to like that game and had proved themselves more agile than his crew. The howls rang in his ears, though, and made the throbbing in his hand seem worse. - The Iron Suitor ADWD

The moniker that's been labelled for Tyrion of "Monkey demon" earlier in ACOK has made a comeback by GRRM in Victarion's ADWD chapters to foreshadow their relationship going into TWOW. And what that relationship will entail, I think I can safely say, will not be a positive one. Not for Victarion anyways.

The monkeys, though … the monkeys were a plague. Victarion had forbidden his men to bring any of the demonic creatures aboard ship, yet somehow half his fleet was now infested with them, even his own Iron Victory. He could see some now, swinging from spar to spar and ship to ship. Would that I had a crossbow - The Iron Suitor ADWD

So, we can see that the passage likely connects Tyrion with the "monkey" moniker by way of referencing a "crossbow" as well as the word "demonic". As we all know, a crossbow is what Tyrion used to slay his father in ASOS. The mention of a crossbow in conjunction with monkeys being described as "demonic", I think we can safely say that Tyrion is being referenced by GRRM in Victarion's chapters .

Okay, so let's assume that Tyrion is referenced in these passages. What does it mean?

Here's what I believe: Tyrion, upon encountering Victarion, would have the judge of his character. Tyrion outclasses Victarion in every way when it comes to intelligence, wit, and manipulation. The two are at the same location (Meeren) and both want the favour of Daenarys. It seems inevitable that the two characters will cross paths. Tyrion would realise that this is a man that he can outwit and use for his own ends.

The first passage describes negatives feelings felt by Victarion at the monkey's "howling". This, I believe, is foreshadowing of Tyrion's attempts to manipulate Victarion. The "howling" used in substitute and reference to the lies that Tyrion will use on Victarion and his men.

Victarion's "frustration" is telling. There are two other characters in the series that aren't as versed in dealing with manipulation and the game of thrones in general, like Victarion. Those two being Eddard Stark and Barristan Selmy, and they reacted in similar ways to manipulation used on them.

“Most likely the king did not know,” Littlefinger said. “It would not be the first time. Our good Robert is practiced at closing his eyes to things he would rather not see.” Ned had no reply for that. The face of the butcher’s boy swam up before his eyes, cloven almost in two, and afterward the king had said not a word. His head was pounding. - Eddard AGOT

“Volantis.” Selmy’s sword hand tingled. We made a peace with Yunkai. Not with Volantis. “You are certain?”

“Certain. The Wise Masters know. So do their friends. The Harpy, Reznak, Hizdahr. This king will open the city gates to the Volantenes when they arrive. All those Daenerys freed will be enslaved again. Even some who were never slaves will be fitted for chains. You may end your days in a fighting pit, old man. Khrazz will eat your heart.”

His head was pounding. “Daenerys must be told.” -The Queensguard ADWD

When Ned encounters a lie by Littlefinger when they talk to him, it's described in the text as his "head pounding". The same happens when Barristan talks to the Shavepate in Meereen. It's likely that the Shavepate has his own agendas and when Barristan hears him he has the same reaction as Ned in where his "head pounds". The implication being that they instinctively know it's a lie, but can't grasp the higher details and fully realise it.

Victarion isn't an honourable man like Eddard and Barristan, but he shares the same ineptitude regarding the game of thrones as they do. The reaction isn't the exact same, but it's described in similar negative detail that taxes him. We can also refer to Barristan's passage where his hand "tingles" during the exchange, just as Victarion's hand "throbs" from the monkeys.

So, what is Tyrion's goal and why would he even need to bother with Victarion and his crew? We can refer back to this passage in Tyrion's final POV chapter in ADWD:

“I am dancing as fast as I can.” He wanted to laugh, but that would have ruined the game. Plumm was enjoying this, and Tyrion had no intention of spoiling his fun. Let him go on thinking that he’s bent me over and fucked me up the arse, and I’ll go on buying steel swords with parchment dragons. If ever he went back to Westeros to claim his birthright, he would have all the gold of Casterly Rock to make good on his promises - Tyrion ADWD

Tyrion's ultimate goal from ADWD and going forward is to tear down his father's legacy and to wreck vengeance upon his siblings. In order to achieve this, he has to acquire power. It's my belief that he'll try to persuade Victarion's men to fight for his cause. In the same way he swindled the Second Sons with promises of riches of Casterly Rock, I believe he'll do the same with Victarion's men.

To get a better picture of the character of the Ironborn soldiers I refer to this passage:

His words drew mutters of assent. “Slaver’s Bay is too far,” called out Ralf the Limper. “And too close to Valyria,” shouted Quellon Humble. Fralegg the Strong said, “Highgarden’s close. I say, look for dragons there. The golden kind!” Alvyn Sharp said, “Why sail the world, when the Mander lies before us?” Red Ralf Stonehouse bounded to his feet. “Oldtown is richer, and the Arbor richer still. Redwyne’s fleet is off away. We need only reach out our hand to pluck the ripest fruit in Westeros.”

“Fruit?” The king’s eye looked more black than blue. “Only a craven would steal a fruit when he could take the orchard.”

“It is the Arbor we want,” said Red Ralf, and other men took up the cry. The Crow’s Eye let the shouts wash over him. Then he leapt down from the table, grabbed his slattern by the arm, and pulled her from the hall.

- The Reaver AFFC

Euron Greyjoy, the king of the Ironborn, proposes an ambitious plan of acquiring dragons to rule all of Westeros, but his Ironborn soldiers opt for the easy way out. A way that will require less effort and with the promises of quick riches. Why sail half a world away when the gold is in their backyards?

The ironmen that have sailed with Victarion, will see the imp bearing his promises, and might just decide that he's their ticket to a grander prize. Their Iron Captain is a formidable warrior, aye, but Casterly Rock would have all the riches they need, and who better to offer them than the rightful born heir of Casterly Rock?

We've already seen Victarion's men turn on him before:

Victarion grabbed him by the forearm. “Refuse him!”

Nute looked at him as if he had gone mad. “Refuse him? Lands and lordship? Will you make me a lord?” He wrenched his arm away and stood, basking in the cheers.

And now he steals my men away, Victarion thought. - The Reaver AFFC

As I've highlighted in the first two passages, the monkeys are described as being more "agile" (more cunning) than Victarion's crew and infesting "half of them". It makes sense, since it's not like Tyrion can swindle 100 percent of Victarion's crew, but at least half of them? That doesn't seem like too much of a challenge, given what we know of the Ironborn's character.

Victarion Greyjoy mistrusted laughter. The sound of it always left him with the uneasy feeling that he was the butt of some jape he did not understand. Euron Crow’s Eye had oft made mock of him when they were boys. So had Aeron, before he had become the Damphair. Their mockery oft came disguised as praise, and sometimes Victarion had not even realized he was being mocked. Not until he heard the laughter. Then came the anger, boiling up in the back of his throat until he was like to choke upon the taste. That was how he felt about the monkeys. Their antics never brought so much as a smile to the captain’s face, though his crew would roar and hoot and whistle. - The Iron Suitor ADWD

“You have a gift for making men smile,” Septa Lemore told Tyrion as he was drying off his toes. “You should thank the Father Above. He gives gifts to all his children.”

“He does,” he agreed pleasantly. And when I die, please let them bury with me a crossbow, so I can thank the Father Above for his gifts the same way I thanked the father below. - Tyrion ADWD

For half a year he cartwheeled his merry way about Casterly Rock, bringing smiles to the faces of septons, squires, and servants alike. Even Cersei laughed to see him once or twice. All that ended abruptly the day his father returned from a sojourn in King’s Landing. That night at supper Tyrion surprised his sire by walking the length of the high table on his hands. Lord Tywin was not pleased. “The gods made you a dwarf. Must you be a fool as well? You were born a lion, not a monkey.” - Tyrion ADWD

Tyrion will use his personality to amuse and charm a majority of the Iron Fleet's crew, all so he can win them over and bond them to him, but Victarion won't be amused. We've already seen Tyrion's prowess used to great effect in winning over a crowd during his slave auction and he'll do the same with The Ironborn by playing the part of an amusing fool; "dancing" and making witty jokes to the bemusement of the knuckleheads from the Iron Islands.

He could send a man up after it, but the monkeys seemed to like that game

Victarion had forbidden his men to bring any of the demonic creatures aboard ship, yet somehow half his fleet was now infested with them, even his own Iron Victory.

Their antics never brought so much as a smile to the captain’s face, though his crew would roar and hoot and whistle.

Victarion may have some vague idea that the "monkeys" are nothing but trouble for his crew, but like Eddard and Barristan, he can't quite grasp the finer details of what a game of thrones player like Tyrion is trying to achieve exactly. He doesn't see the capering little monkey as someone trying to swindle his crew right from under him. "and sometimes Victarion had not even realized he was being mocked. Not until he heard the laughter. "

Because ultimately, the joke is on Victarion. The Monkey Demon makes his japes and charms all, while laughing from above at the dumb brute who can only frown his displeasure and not realise what the monkey has in store for him, until it's too late. And Victarion, finally realising the punchline too late, will be the biggest mistake of his life.

The Glory That Awaits

"The Lord of Light has shown me your worth, Lord Captain. Every night in my fires I glimpse the glory that awaits you." - Victarion ADWD

One of the biggest constants in Victarion's arc is that he's basically a born stooge. He's being manipulated by characters superior in intelligence than him, and while these manipulations haven't born fruit so far in AFFC and ADWD, I think they'll finally bloom and bite him in his kraken ass in TWOW.

Moqorro

Euron

Tyrion

It's been heavily implied in the text that all three characters are going to use him just to achieve their ends. The only character that hasn't interacted with him yet is Tyrion, but the first two share something in common that I think will translate over to Tyrion's machinations as well. That something being dragons.

Euron gifts him with a dragonhorn and bonehead extraordinaire Victarion thinks that he'll use it for his own benefit and snag himself a dragon. As if Euron would be stupid enough to allow Victarion to do that.

Euron was a fool to give me this, it is a precious thing, and powerful. With this I’ll win the Seastone Chair, and then the Iron Throne. With this I’ll win the world. - Victarion TWOW

Interesting that the word "fool" is invoked for Euron, a man who is more cunning than Victarion by miles. After all, you don't just secure a kingship like Euron did through sheer luck.

That's what the dancing little monkey will seem like to Victarion as well. Lord Tywin, a man after Victarion's own heart because he never smiled or laughed, wasn't amused by the monkey's antics either:

Lord Tywin’s mouth tightened. “Very droll. Shall I have them sew you a suit of motley, and a little hat with bells on it?” - Tyrion ASOS

He considered Tyrion a motley wearing fool. We all know how that ended for Tywin.

Moqorro then tells him that in order to capture the dragon for himself, he must claim the dragonhorn with his own blood.

“Your brother did not sound the horn himself. Nor must you.” Moqorro pointed to the band of steel. “Here. ‘Blood for fire, fire for blood.’ Who blows the hellhorn matters not. The dragons will come to the horn’s master. You must claim the horn. With blood.” - Victarion ADWD

So, the first two characters are connected via the use of the dragonhorn. Judging what we know from Euron's character, it's extremely likely that he's pulling one over on Victarion for his own ends. Since I've established that Tyrion is also going to do the same through this essay, it's highly likely Moqorro is just using Victarion as well.

Here we see Moqorro relaying a prophecy to Tyrion:

“Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark. And you. A small man with a big shadow, snarling in the midst of all.”

“Snarling? An amiable fellow like me?” Tyrion was almost flattered. And no doubt that is just what he intends. Every fool loves to hear that he’s important. “Perhaps it was Penny you saw. We’re almost of a size.”

“No, my friend.”

My friend? When did that happen, I wonder? - Tyrion ADWD

Definition of amiable:

friendly, sociable, and congenial. generally agreeable

Definition of snarling:

Something used by predators before they rip your throat out.

Moqorro's label cuts to the heart of the matter, despite Tyrion's "incredulous" reaction to it.

How can the jovial, charming little dwarf be anything but a good, fun time? "Snarling"? Does it "look" like he wants to burn down all of Westeros just to get some empty satisfaction at the downfall of his family? Does it "look" like he wants to use people less intelligent than him to achieve those ends?

Yes, Tyrion. Yes it does.

So, onto the next point. Since we've established that Tyrion doesn't have Victarion's best interests at heart, there's a question we should ask ourselves here: Why would Moqorro consider Tyrion a friend if he can see that he'll just end up using Victarion? His prophecies seem to be pretty on point in judging future events and how it relates to people, so why look so highly upon the dwarf?

It's because Moqorro is manipulating Victarion for his own ends as well. If he was Victarion's true ally, he wouldn't be so chummy with Tyrion.

Considering Moqorro looks so favorably upon Tyrion, his claims to Victarion that he can claim the dragon for his own are dubious. Moqorro's prophecy for "the glory that awaits him" to Victarion may not be the glorious ending Victarion thinks it'll be. Since Moqorro is a priest of fire, the "glory" he speaks of is something that he himself finds glorious. Fire.

During Victarion's travelogue in ADWD, he starts to incorporate The Lord of Light's beliefs for his own and mixes it with his belief of the Drowned God.

He wondered if this was how his brother Aeron felt when the Drowned God spoke to him. He could almost hear the god’s voice welling up from the depths of the sea. You shall serve me well, my captain, the waves seemed to say. It was for this I made you.

But he would feed the red god too, Moqorro’s fire god. The arm the priest had healed was hideous to look upon, pork crackling from elbow to fingertips. Sometimes when Victarion closed his hand the skin would split and smoke, yet the arm was stronger than it had ever been. “Two gods are with me now,” he told the dusky woman. “No foe can stand before two gods." - Victarion ADWD

In one final, humiliating punchline, the Iron Captain will serve his two gods. But not in the way he intended.

“Might be his robes caught fire, so he jumped overboard to put them out,” suggested Longwater Pyke, to general laughter. Even the monkeys were amused. They chattered overhead, and one flung down a handful of his own shit to spatter on the boards. -The Iron Suitor ADWD

The captain could not abide lies, so he had the Ghiscari captain bound hand and foot and thrown overboard, a sacrifice to the Drowned God. “Your red god will have his due,” he promised Moqorro, “but the seas are ruled by the Drowned God.”- Victarion ADWD

The captain answered with a nod, grim-faced, then called for the seven girls he had claimed to be brought on deck, the loveliest of all those found aboard the Willing Maiden. He kissed them each upon the cheeks and told them of the honor that awaited them, though they did not understand his words. Then he had them put aboard the fishing ketch that they had captured, cut her loose, and had her set afire.

“With this gift of innocence and beauty, we honor both the gods,” he proclaimed, as the warships of the Iron Fleet rowed past the burning ketch. “Let these girls be reborn in light, undefiled by mortal lust, or let them descend to the Drowned God’s watery halls, to feast and dance and laugh until the seas dry up.” - Victarion ADWD

His plan to snatch a dragon and win the world will backfire horribly. Believing he'll become Aegon the Conquerer come again, he uses the dragonhorn to bring a dragon to him. Since the dragonhorn is at least six feet long, it'd be a pain and seem redundant to move it from the deck of The Iron Victory. Thinking the dragon will be binded to him, he'll be happy as a pig in shit when the horn gets tooted like an old lady's fart.

That is, until the dragon swoops down and opens his maw to unleash a nuclear holocaust on his sorry ass.

When he raised his whip, he saw that the lash was burning. His hand as well. All of him, all of him was burning. Oh, he thought. Then he began to scream. - The Dragontamer ADWD

It's not too far-fetched to say the passage connects with Victarion, considering his arm and hand have already been described as split and smoking. It's also isn't the first time his hand is referenced, as I've stated before in the reference to Barristan Selmy. Both references coming from the same book ADWD.

Engulfed in dragonfire, he'll have no choice but to jump overboard into the sea. That'll snuff the flames right ou-

The white roses drew back, as men always did at the sight of Victarion Greyjoy armed and armored, his face hidden behind his kraken helm. They were clutching swords and spears and axes, but nine of every ten wore no armor, and the tenth had only a shirt of sewn scales. These are no ironmen, Victarion thought. They still fear drowning. - The Reaver AFFC

None of his men had seen what became of the knight after he went over the side, however. Most like the man had drowned. “May he feast as he fought, in the Drowned God’s watery halls.” Though the men of the Shield Islands called themselves sailors, they crossed the seas in dread and went lightly clad in battle for fear of drowning. Young Serry had been different. A brave man, thought Victarion. Almost ironborn. - The Reaver AFFC

In a buy two-get-one free deal, the char-coaled Iron Captain will serve his two gods, sinking like a rock to the bottom of the ocean to feast in the watery halls of the Drowned God for eternity. The Monkey Demon laughing and capering all the while.

At least the Drowned God will be impressed with the Kraken armor.

The End

So, in a final analysis, I believe Tyrion will convince at least half, if not most of Victarion's crew to join in his cause, thinking they'll be rich beyond their wildest of dreams, not realising that they're just expendable pawns for Tyrion to fulfil his desire for vengeance.

While the exact logistics of how Tyrion is involved in Victarion's death escape me, I certainly believe he'll have a part in it. As I've stated before, Tyrion will likely be involved with Victarion and his plot for dragons just like Moqorro and Euron.

The white cyvasse dragon ended up at Tyrion’s feet. He scooped it off the carpet and wiped it on his sleeve, but some of the Yunkish blood had collected in the fine grooves of the carving, so the pale wood seemed veined with red. “All hail our beloved queen, Daenerys.” Be she alive or be she dead. He tossed the bloody dragon in the air, caught it, grinned. - Tyrion TWOW

It'd also be guesswork on my part to write what exact manipulations and lies Tyrion will utilise on Victarion and his men through dialogue, but I think my rough sketch is enough to give a general idea for the direction they'll likely take.

Considering that Tyrion is inevitably going to meet with Daenerys, and since it's not like he has any easy passage to any other location, he'll likely be at Meeren for a good while.

And since it seems highly unlikely that Victarion will just be killed off at the Battle of Fire, considering he's been chronicled and built up in the past two books, I think it's safe to assume that the two will have lengthy interactions with each other while they're stuck in Meereen.

Whether or not Victarion will be around long enough to meet the fair-haired queen of his dreams is unknown, but it's possible he'll be dead before then.

After all, wouldn't it be a worthy prize for our beloved imp to come bearing gifts of a naval fleet bonded to him to the lovely Queen Daenerys? All from him, no other person claiming ownership of them.

"The old captain? Eh, he wouldn't have been as generous as me."

Despite all of that, despite all the manipulations and deceit, will Tyrion be truly satisfied at the end result?

That night Tyrion Lannister dreamed of a battle that turned the hills of Westeros as red as blood. He was in the midst of it, dealing death with an axe as big as he was, fighting side by side with Barristan the Bold and Bittersteel as dragons wheeled across the sky above them. In the dream he had two heads, both noseless. His father led the enemy, so he slew him once again. Then he killed his brother, Jaime, hacking at his face until it was a red ruin, laughing every time he struck a blow. Only when the fight was finished did he realize that his second head was weeping. - Tyrion ADWD

#tyrion lannister #asoiaf #A Song of Ice and Fire #asoiaf victarion #victarion greyjoy #asoiaf tyrion #asoiaf theory #asoiaf meta

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butterflies-dragons · 4 years ago

Note

Hello! I love your blog. Your meta about women in Jon’s life and Lyanna was so good. Antis always try to ignore the Sansa and Lyanna parallels which is absurd because her story is so similar with Sansa’s... I guess they want to ignore those because they don’t want Sansa to be destined with a Targaryen prince (aka jonsa 🤭). So thanks for pointing them out. Are you planning to write a meta just about Sansa and Lyanna? It would be a good guide for our jonsa arguments. Have a nice day.

Hello Anon,

Thanks for your words.

Antis and haters gonna oppose and hate. That’s their thing. They questioned and denied every parallel that Lyanna and Sansa actually share, and proceed to attack anyone who dare to say they share those parallels. What’s knew about that?

Lyanna and Arya parallels are textual evident, they are easily spotted but they could be easily questioned as well, especially because most of the statements about Lyanna came from Ned, and he is not only an unreliable narrator, but his memories of Lyanna are embellished by love and trauma. If you contrast what Ned said about Lyanna with other sources, not so biased, Ned’s statements about her don’t look so evident and solid anymore.

Anyway, do you want me to talk more about Lyanna and Sansa parallels? Here you go:

Summary

Original Outline

Beauty

The wolf-blood

She-Wolves of Winterfell

Inner Strength

Sword & Armor

Knights protect the innocent

Singers & Songs

The Rose of Winterfell

Blue Winter Roses

Knights & Queens of Love and Beauty

Failed betrothal to a Baratheon

Pleading Ned to protect part of themselves

Targaryen Imagery

Dead before their time

Ladies of Winterfell

Bonus

LYANNA & SANSA

Original Outline & ASOIAF:

Sansa in the Original Outline:

‘Original Outline Sansa’ was very similar to Lyanna Stark.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. (...) Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders.

[Source]

As you can see, the ‘Original Outline Sansa’ shares parallels with Lyanna Stark and Elia Martel:

Romantically involved with the King/Heir of the Iron Throne

Mothers of their sons

Dead while protecting their children

Unwillingly caused the death of family members

Tagged as members of dubious loyalty to their paternal families

Regretted their doomed romances

But ¿How marrying the heir of the Iron Throne/King of the 7K is supposed to be an act of dubious loyalty? GRRM has stated that in high nobility there is no marriage without the Lord Father of the bride’s blessing. Furthermore, from the wedding the bride belongs to her husband’s house, that’s all the fuzz with the cloaking ceremony, going from the maiden’s cloak to your husband’s cloak. You left your paternal house to belong with your husbands house. Sansa’s loyalty was with her husband, and more important, Sansa’s love and loyalty was with her baby boy. So, how choosing his baby over her paternal house could be seem as an act of dubious loyalty then? And even if she wanted to come back to her paternal family, does she really get a chance without the risk of being captured, separated from her baby, accused of treason and executed, leaving her baby boy motherless?

But according to the Original Outline, there was an enmity between Starks and Lannisters. So, or Joffrey abducted Sansa, or Sansa eloped to marry Joffrey. How very Shakespearean! Romeo and Juliet all over again. Or even better, Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark all over again.

It is also implied by the fandom that this ‘Original Outline Sansa’ dies because the outline says that Jaime dethrones and kills Joffrey and “everyone ahead of him in the line of succession” (Sansa’s baby). Well, Sansa was not in the line of succession, but it’s probable that Jaime had to kill her to get to her baby boy, which reminds me of Elia Martell and her babies’ tragic deaths.

Sansa in Asoiaf:

Asoiaf Sansa never married Joffrey, never bore him a son, and she’s still alive. But she still shares a lot of similarities with her aunt Lyanna.

Both Lyanna and Sansa got infatuated by silver/golden princes, Rhaegar Targaryen and Joffrey Baratheon, and because of those romantic relationships, they unintentionally played a part in the deaths of their fathers and older brothers, Rickard and Brandon, and Ned and Robb. Later, both of them ended trapped in towers regretting their doomed romances.

According to GRRM, Asoiaf Sansa played a part in her father Ned Stark’s death. But I would say that Sansa’s fault lays more in trusting the wrong people than betraying Ned. The act of betrayal requires willful intent, and Sansa never wanted to betray her father. And we can say the same about Lyanna, she trusted Rhaegar over her family, ran away from her approved betrothal, lived a forbidden romance, and died after giving birth a son to her silver prince.

Sansa and Lyanna commit the same actions, but Lyanna gets more sympathy from the readers than Sansa, who is still considered a member of dubious loyalty or plainly a traitor to the Starks.

Also, as it was pointed out before, “Rickard Stark and Catelyn Stark both saw their firstborn sons murdered in front of them, while convinced that their daughters were far away being raped and abused by cruel princes, and then were brutally murdered themselves”.

Beauty:

Both Lyanna and Sansa are considered beautiful, but in different ways.

While Lyanna had a wild beauty:

“She [Lyanna] was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.” —AGOT - Arya II

Lyanna had only been sixteen, a child-woman of surpassing loveliness. Ned had loved her with all his heart. Robert had loved her even more. She was to have been his bride. —AGOT - Eddard I

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath”. —AGOT - Eddard VII

“The maid’s a fair one,” Osha said. —AGOT - Bran VII

The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he [Kevan] recalled. —ADWD - Epilogue

The crowning of the Stark girl, who was by all reports a wild and boyish young thing with none of the Princess Elia's delicate beauty, could only have been meant to win the allegiance of Winterfell to Prince Rhaegar's cause, Symond Staunton suggested to the king. —The World of Ice and Fire - The Fall of the Dragons: The Year of the False Spring

Sansa possesses a traditional beauty:

Sansa’s needlework was exquisite. Everyone said so. “Sansa’s work is as pretty as she is”, Septa Mordane told their lady mother once. —AGOT - Arya I

Sansa had the grace to blush. She blushed prettily. She did everything prettily. —AGOT - Arya I

Worse, she was beautiful. Sansa had gotten their mother’s fine high cheekbones and the thick auburn hair of the Tullys. —AGOT - Arya I

“I [Ser Cleos Frey] saw Sansa at the court, the day Tyrion told me his terms. She looked most beautiful, my lady. Perhaps a, a bit wan. Drawn, as it were.” —ACOK - Catelyn VI

Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was. —ACOK - Catelyn VII

“You are very beautiful, my lady,” the seamstress said when she was dressed. —ASOS - Sansa III

Ser Kevan told her she was beautiful, Jalabhar Xho said something she did not understand in the Summer Tongue, and Lord Redwyne wished her many fat children and long years of joy. —ASOS - Sansa III

“Ser Ossifer speaks truly, you are the most beautiful maid in all the Seven Kingdoms.” —TWOW - Alayne I

“Had we known such beauty awaited us at the Gates, we would have flown,” Ser Roland said. Though his words were addressed to Myranda Royce, he smiled at Alayne as he said them. —TWOW - Alayne I

The wolf-blood:

Lyanna:

"Ah, Arya. You have a wildness in you, child. 'The wolf blood,' my father used to call it. Lyanna had a touch of it, and my brother Brandon more than a touch. It brought them both to an early grave." Arya heard sadness in his voice; he did not often speak of his father, or of the brother and sister who had died before she was born. "Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes. You even look like her."

"Lyanna was beautiful," Arya said, startled. Everybody said so. It was not a thing that was ever said of Arya.

“She was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.”

—AGOT - Arya II

Sansa:

“I’ve never seen an aurochs,” Sansa said, feeding a piece of bacon to Lady under the table. The direwolf took it from her hand, as delicate as a queen. Septa Mordane sniffed in disapproval. “A noble lady does not feed dogs at her table,” she said, breaking off another piece of comb and letting the honey drip down onto her bread. “She’s not a dog, she’s a direwolf,” Sansa pointed out as Lady licked her fingers with a rough tongue. “Anyway, Father said we could keep them with us if we want.” The septa was not appeased. “You’re a good girl, Sansa, but I do vow, when it comes to that creature you’re as willful as your sister Arya.” She scowled. “And where is Arya this morning?"

—AGOT - Sansa I

"It won’t be so bad, Sansa,” Arya said. “We’re going to sail on a galley. It will be an adventure, and then we’ll be with Bran and Robb again, and Old Nan and Hodor and the rest.” She touched her on the arm. “Hodor!” Sansa yelled. “You ought to marry Hodor, you’re just like him, stupid and hairy and ugly!” She wrenched away from her sister’s hand, stormed into her bedchamber, and barred the door behind her.

—AGOT - Sansa III

Jeyne yawned. “Are there any lemon cakes?” Sansa did not like being interrupted, but she had to admit, lemon cakes sounded more interesting than most of what had gone on in the throne room. “Let’s see,” she said. The kitchen yielded no lemon cakes, but they did find half of a cold strawberry pie, and that was almost as good. They ate it on the tower steps, giggling and gossiping and sharing secrets, and Sansa went to bed that night feeling almost as wicked as Arya.

—AGOT - Sansa III

After my name day feast, I’m going to raise a host and kill your brother myself. That’s what I’ll give you, Lady Sansa. Your brother’s head.“ A kind of madness took over her then, and she heard herself say, "Maybe my brother will give me your head.”

—AGOT - Sansa VI

She-Wolves of Winterfell:

Lyanna is literally the she-wolf in the tale of “The Knight of the Laughing Tree”:

But then they heard a roar. 'That's my father's man you're kicking,' howled the she-wolf."

"A wolf on four legs, or two?"

"Two," said Meera.

—ASOS - Bran II

Sansa went from a “wolf girl” to the she-wolf that killed a king:

He smiled at her. "Now, wolf girl, if you can put a name to me as well, then I must concede that you are truly our Hand’s daughter.”

—AGOT - Sansa I

“I forgot, you’ve been hiding under a rock. The northern girl. Winterfell’s daughter. We heard she killed the king with a spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head.”

—ASOS - Arya XIII

“May the Father judge him justly,” murmured a septon. “The dwarf’s wife did the murder with him,” swore an archer in Lord Rowan’s livery. “Afterward, she vanished from the hall in a puff of brimstone, and a ghostly direwolf was seen prowling the Red Keep, blood dripping from his jaws.”

—ASOS - Jaime VII

“Your Grace has forgotten the Lady Sansa,” said Pycelle. The queen bristled. “I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf.” She refused to say the girl’s name. “I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son.

—AFFC - Cersei IV

What a kick-ass reputation: Sansa, the she-wolf that killed King Joffrey!

Inner Strength:

Lyanna:

"You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath”. —AGOT - Eddard VII

Sansa:

My skin has turned to porcelain, to ivory, to steel. —ASOS - Sansa V

Sansa lost her direwolf Lady, and with her, the possibility to develop her abilities as a warg. But GRRM has still made Sansa an skinchanger through poetry. Her skin has changed to porcelain, to ivory, to steel.

Sword & Armor

While Lyanna might have carried a sword, Sansa Stark is a lady armored in courtesy and she polishes her armor with her wits. As Tyrion Lannister said:

My mind is my weapon. My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer, and I have my mind … and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetstone, if it is to keep its edge." Tyrion tapped the leather cover of the book. "That's why I read so much, Jon Snow."

—AGOT - Tyrion II

Lyanna:

Lyanna might have carried a sword, if my lord father had allowed it. You remind me of her sometimes.

—AGOT - Arya II

Sansa:

Sansa felt that she ought to say something. What was it that Septa Mordane used to tell her? A lady’s armor is courtesy, that was it. She donned her armor and said, “I’m sorry my lady mother took you captive, my lord.”

—ACOK - Sansa I

Courtesy is a lady’s armor. You must not offend them, be careful what you say. “I do not know Ser Willas. I have never had the pleasure, my lady. Is he … is he as great a knight as his brothers?”

—ASOS - Sansa I

“Gods have mercy.” The dwarf took another swallow of wine. “Well, talk won’t make you older. Shall we get on with this, my lady? If it please you?” “It will please me to please my lord husband.” That seemed to anger him. “You hide behind courtesy as if it were a castle wall.” “Courtesy is a lady’s armor,” Sansa said. Her septa had always told her that. “I am your husband. You can take off your armor now.” “And my clothing?” “That too.” He waved his wine cup at her. “My lord father has commanded me to consummate this marriage.”

—ASOS - Sansa III

He wanted to reach her, to break through the armor of her courtesy. Was that what made him speak? Or just the need to distract himself from the fullness in his bladder?

[...]

Perhaps that would please Sansa. Gently, he spoke of Braavos, and met a wall of sullen courtesy as icy and unyielding as the Wall he had walked once in the north. It made him weary. Then and now.

—ASOS - Tyrion VIII

Ser Harrold looked down at her coldly. “Why should it please me to be escorted anywhere by Littlefinger’s bastard?”

[...]

A lady’s armor is her courtesy. Alayne could feel the blood rushing to her face. No tears, she prayed. Please, please, I must not cry. “As you wish, ser. And now if you will excuse me, Littlefinger’s bastard must find her lord father and let him know that you have come, so we can begin the tourney on the morrow.” And may your horse stumble, Harry the Heir, so you fall on your stupid head in your first tilt. She showed the Waynwoods a stone face as they blurted out awkward apologies for their companion. When they were done she turned and fled.

—TWOW - Alayne I

Knights protect the innocent:

Lyanna, as herself and as “The Knight of the Laughing Tree”, defended Howland Reed, a bannerman of House Stark:

“None offered a name, but he marked their faces well so he could revenge himself upon them later. They shoved him down every time he tried to rise, and kicked him when he curled up on the ground. But then they heard a roar. ‘That’s my father’s man you’re kicking,’ howled the she-wolf.” “A wolf on four legs, or two?” “Two,” said Meera. “The she-wolf laid into the squires with a tourney sword, scattering them all. The crannogman was bruised and bloodied, so she took him back to her lair to clean his cuts and bind them up with linen. There he met her pack brothers: the wild wolf who led them, the quiet wolf beside him, and the pup who was youngest of the four.

(…)

“Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called.”

—ASOS - Bran II

Sansa, as a lady armored with her courtesy and wits, defended and saved Dontos Hollard’s life, a defenestrated knight turned fool:

The king stood. “A cask from the cellars! I’ll see him drowned in it.” Sansa heard herself gasp. “No, you can’t.” Joffrey turned his head. “What did you say?” Sansa could not believe she had spoken. Was she mad? To tell him no in front of half the court? She hadn’t meant to say anything, only … Ser Dontos was drunk and silly and useless, but he meant no harm. “Did you say I can’t? Did you?” “Please,” Sansa said, “I only meant … it would be ill luck, Your Grace … to, to kill a man on your name day.” “You’re lying,” Joffrey said. “I ought to drown you with him, if you care for him so much.” “I don’t care for him, Your Grace.” The words tumbled out desperately. “Drown him or have his head off, only … kill him on the morrow, if you like, but please … not today, not on your name day. I couldn’t bear for you to have ill luck … terrible luck, even for kings, the singers all say so …” Joffrey scowled. He knew she was lying, she could see it. He would make her bleed for this. “The girl speaks truly,” the Hound rasped. “What a man sows on his name day, he reaps throughout the year.” His voice was flat, as if he did not care a whit whether the king believed him or no. Could it be true? Sansa had not known. It was just something she’d said, desperate to avoid punishment. Unhappy, Joffrey shifted in his seat and flicked his fingers at Ser Dontos. “Take him away. I’ll have him killed on the morrow, the fool.” “He is,” Sansa said. “A fool. You’re so clever, to see it. He’s better fitted to be a fool than a knight, isn’t he? You ought to dress him in motley and make him clown for you. He doesn’t deserve the mercy of a quick death.” The king studied her a moment. “Perhaps you’re not so stupid as Mother says.” He raised his voice. “Did you hear my lady, Dontos? From this day on, you’re my new fool. You can sleep with Moon Boy and dress in motley."

—ACOK - Sansa I

Singers & Songs:

Lyanna and Sansa are linked with singers and romantic songs.

Lyanna loved a singer and became a lady in a song, her own tragic romantic story:

The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle.

—ASOS - Bran II

The wolf maid was Lyanna Stark hearing her dragon prince Rhaegar Targaryen playing a sad song with the harp.

And curiously enough, a blue eyed redhead man called Jon also wept while hearing Rhaegar Targaryen playing a sad song with the harp:

At the welcoming feast, the prince had taken up his silver-stringed harp and played for them. A song of love and doom, Jon Connington recalled, and every woman in the hall was weeping when he put down the harp. Not the men, of course.

—A Dance with Dragons - The Griffin Reborn

Jon Connington was, of course, in love with Rhaegar Targaryen...

Sansa:

Once, when she was just a little girl, a wandering singer had stayed with them at Winterfell for half a year. An old man he was, with white hair and windburnt cheeks, but he sang of knights and quests and ladies fair, and Sansa had cried bitter tears when he left them, and begged her father not to let him go. “The man has played us every song he knows thrice over,” Lord Eddard told her gently. “I cannot keep him here against his will. You need not weep, though. I promise you, other singers will come.”

They hadn’t, though, not for a year or more. Sansa had prayed to the Seven in their sept and old gods of the heart tree, asking them to bring the old man back, or better still to send another singer, young and handsome. But the gods never answered, and the halls of Winterfell stayed silent.

But that was when she was a little girl, and foolish. She was a maiden now, three-and-ten and flowered. All her nights were full of song, and by day she prayed for silence.

—A Feast for Crows - Sansa I

Bran and his brothers and sisters sat with the king's children, Joffrey and Tommen and Princess Myrcella, who'd spent the whole meal gazing at Robb with adoring eyes. Arya made faces across the table when no one was looking; Sansa listened raptly while the king's high harper sang songs of chivalry, and Rickon kept asking why Jon wasn't with them. "Because he's a bastard," Bran finally had to whisper to him.

—ACOK - Bran III

Later, while Sansa was off listening to a troupe of singers perform the complex round of interwoven ballads called the “Dance of the Dragons,” [sung in High Valyrian] Ned inspected the bruise himself. “I hope Forel is not being too hard on you,” he said.

—AGOT - Eddard VII

She pulled a chair close to the hearth, took down one of her favorite books, and lost herself in the stories of Florian and Jonquil, of Lady Shella and the Rainbow Knight, of valiant Prince Aemon and his doomed love for his brother’s queen.

—AGOT - Sansa IV

After the meal had been cleared away, many of the guests asked leave to go to the sept. Cersei graciously granted their request. Lady Tanda and her daughters were among those who fled. For those who remained, a singer was brought forth to fill the hall with the sweet music of the high harp. He sang of Jonquil and Florian, of Prince Aemon the Dragonknight and his love for his brother’s queen, of Nymeria’s ten thousand ships. They were beautiful songs, but terribly sad. Several of the women began to weep, and Sansa felt her own eyes growing moist.

—ACOK - Sansa VI

So the singer played for her, so soft and sad that Arya only heard snatches of the words, though the tune was half-familiar. Sansa would know it, I bet. Her sister had known all the songs, and she could even play a little, and sing so sweetly. All I could ever do was shout the words.

—ASOS - Arya IV

Lady Ashara was my aunt. I never knew her, though. She threw herself into the sea from atop the Palestone Sword before I was born.” “Why would she do that?” said Arya, startled. (...) “Why did she jump in the sea, though?” "Her heart was broken." Sansa would have sighed and shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid.

—ASOS - Arya VIII

"Do you require guarding?” Marillion said lightly. “I am composing a new song, you should know. A song so sweet and sad it will melt even your frozen heart. 'The Roadside Rose,’ I mean to call it. About a baseborn girl so beautiful she bewitched every man who laid eyes upon her.”

—ASOS - Sansa VII

Lyanna and Sansa are also linked with the tale of Bael the Bard and the Rose of Winterfell.

The Rose of Winterfell:

This is the tale:

According to free folk legend, Lord Brandon Stark, the liege of the north, once called Bael a coward. To take revenge for this affront and prove his courage, Bael climbed the Wall, took the kingsroad, and entered Winterfell under the guise of a singer named Sygerrik of Skagos. (“Sygerrik” means “deceiver” in the Old Tongue.) There, he sang until midnight for the lord.

Impressed by his skills as a singer, Lord Stark asked Bael what he wanted as a reward, but he requested only the most beautiful flower blooming in Winterfell’s gardens. As the blue winter roses were just blooming, Brandon Stark presented him with one. The following morning, the maiden daughter of Lord Stark had disappeared, his only child, and in her bed was the blue winter rose.

Lord Brandon sent the members of the Night’s Watch looking for them beyond the Wall, but they never found Bael or the girl. The Stark line was on the verge of extinction, when one day the girl was back in her room, holding in her arms an infant: they had actually never left Winterfell, staying hidden in the crypts. Bael’s bastard with Brandon’s daughter became the new Lord Stark.

Thirty years later, Bael was King-Beyond-the-Wall and led the wildlings’ army south, and he had to fight his own son at the Frozen Ford. There, incapable of killing his own blood, he let himself be killed by Lord Stark. His son brought back Bael’s head to Winterfell, and his mother who had loved the bard, seeing the trophy, killed herself by leaping from the top of a tower. The son was eventually slain by the Boltons.

[Source]

Jon’s first and only lover, Ygritte, told him this story:

“You said you were the Bastard o’ Winterfell.” “I am.” “Who was your mother?” “Some woman. Most of them are.” Someone had said that to him once. He did not remember who. She smiled again, a flash of white teeth. “And she never sung you the song o’ the winter rose?” “I never knew my mother. Or any such song.” “Bael the Bard made it,” said Ygritte. “He was King-beyond-the-Wall a long time back. (...) “Well, long before he was king over the free folk, Bael was a great raider.” (...) “The Stark in Winterfell wanted Bael’s head, but never could take him, and the taste o’ failure galled him. One day in his bitterness he called Bael a craven who preyed only on the weak. When word o’ that got back, Bael vowed to teach the lord a lesson. So he scaled the Wall, skipped down the kingsroad, and walked into Winterfell one winter’s night with harp in hand, naming himself Sygerrik of Skagos. Sygerrik means ‘deceiver’ in the Old Tongue, that the First Men spoke, and the giants still speak.” “North or south, singers always find a ready welcome, so Bael ate at Lord Stark’s own table, and played for the lord in his high seat until half the night was gone. The old songs he played, and new ones he’d made himself, and he played and sang so well that when he was done, the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower,’ Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’” “Now as it happened the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare nor precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. But when morning come, the singer had vanished . . . and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter. Her bed they found empty, but for the pale blue rose that Bael had left on the pillow where her head had lain.” Jon had never heard this tale before. (...) “Lord Brandon had no other children. At his behest, the black crows flew forth from their castles in the hundreds, but nowhere could they find any sign o’ Bael or this maid. For most a year they searched, till the lord lost heart and took to his bed, and it seemed as though the line o’ Starks was at its end. But one night as he lay waiting to die, Lord Brandon heard a child’s cry. He followed the sound and found his daughter back in her bedchamber, asleep with a babe at her breast.” “Bael had brought her back?” “No. They had been in Winterfell all the time, hiding with the dead beneath the castle. The maid loved Bael so dearly she bore him a son, the song says . . . though if truth be told, all the maids love Bael in them songs he wrote. Be that as it may, what’s certain is that Bael left the child in payment for the rose he’d plucked unasked, and that the boy grew to be the next Lord Stark. So there it is—you have Bael’s blood in you, same as me.”

—ACOK - Jon VI

This tale resembles Jon’s own story: Bael the Bard and Rhaegar Targaryen, both harp players, “abducted” a Stark maid, Brandon’s daughter and Lyanna, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell’. Rhaegar also crowned Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty with blue winter roses, and they procreated a “bastard” son, Jon Snow. Lyanna died after giving birth to Jon, and the memories of that tragic even haunted Ned, who remembers the Lyanna bleeding and the blue winter roses:

"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

—AGOT - Eddard XIII

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Immediately after this chapter, comes ACOK - Sansa IV, where Sansa got her first period.

So after a chapter about ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell’ it follows the chapter where Sansa Stark becomes a maid, Sansa literally flowered.

Next chapter is Jon again. There is a succession of Jon-Sansa-Jon chapters, that linked them thematically.

Also take note that Sansa was “abducted” by Petyr Baelish, a known deceiver, whose surname has a resemblance with the name Bael.

Blue Winter Roses:

Lyanna and Sansa are linked with flowers, but especially with roses:

Lyanna and the blue winter roses:

Ned could recall none of it. ”I bring her flowers when I can,“ he said. ”Lyanna was … fond of flowers.”

—A Game Of Thrones - Eddard I

"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

—AGOT - Eddard XIII

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Sansa Stark:

It was enough that she could walk in the yard, pick flowers in Myrcella’s garden, and visit the sept to pray for her father. Sometimes she prayed in the godswood as well, since the Starks kept the old gods.

—AGOT - Sansa V

Her eyes were only for Ser Loras. When the white horse stopped in front of her, she thought her heart would burst. To the other maidens he had given white roses, but the one he plucked for her was red. “Sweet lady,” he said, “no victory is half so beautiful as you.” Sansa took the flower timidly, struck dumb by his gallantry. His hair was a mass of lazy brown curls, his eyes like liquid gold. She inhaled the sweet fragrance of the rose and sat clutching it long after Ser Loras had ridden off.

—AGOT - Sansa II

—ASOS - Sansa VII

So we have Marillion, a singer, composing a song for Alayne Stone, Sansa Stark in disguise, that he meant to call “The Roadside Rose”

And Loras Tyrell, The Knight of Flowers, gave Sansa a single red rose. I will expand on this next, because Loras giving Sansa a red rose is an allegory in reverse of Rhaegar giving Lyanna the crown of blue winter roses.

Knights & Queens of Love and Beauty:

Lyanna was a Mystery Knight AND was crowned Queen of Love and Beauty at the Tourney at Harrenhal.

Lyanna as the Knight of the Laughing Tree

Lyanna, as herself and as a mystery knight, the Knight of the Laughing Tree, defended the crannogman, Howland Reed, a bannerman of House Stark:

But late on the afternoon of that second day, as the shadows grew long, a mystery knight appeared in the lists. Bran nodded sagely. […] “It was the little crannogman, I bet.” “No one knew,” said Meera, “but the mystery knight was short of stature, and clad in ill-fitting armor made up of bits and pieces. The device upon his shield was a heart tree of the old gods, a white weirwood with a laughing red face.” […] “Whoever he was, the old gods gave strength to his arm. The porcupine knight fell first, then the pitchfork knight, and lastly the knight of the two towers. None were well loved, so the common folk cheered lustily for the Knight of the Laughing Tree, as the new champion soon was called.” —ASOS - Bran II

Lyanna as the Queen of Love and Beauty

Rhaegar Targaryen wearing an armor adorned with rubies (red) gave Lyanna a crown of winter roses (blue):

The Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight.

—AGOT - Eddard I

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Sansa as a “Knight”

During the Tourney in honor of King Joffrey’s Name Day, Sansa, as a lady armored with her courtesy and wits, defended and saved the life of Ser Dontos Hollard, a defenestrated knight turned fool, as I explained above.

Sansa as the Queen of Love and Beauty

Art credit: Loras Tyrell Gives Sansa Stark a Rose and the Hand’s Tournament by Jonathan Burton.

Sansa was the unofficial Queen of Love and Beauty at the Tourney of the Hand. GRRM wrote this passage as a resemble of the Tourney at Harrenhal, hiding hints and reversing colors.

Sansa attended the Tourney of the Hand at Kings Landing and met Petyr Baelish who told her that her mother, Catelyn Tully, was his Queen of Love and Beauty:

"Your mother was my queen of beauty once,” the man said quietly. His breath smelled of mint. “You have her hair.” His fingers brushed against her cheek as he stroked one auburn lock. Quite abruptly he turned and walked away. —AGOT - Sansa II

Loras Tyrell, the Knight of Flowers, wearing an armor adorned with sapphires (blue) gave Sansa a (red) rose:

When the Knight of Flowers made his entrance, a murmur ran through the crowd, and he heard Sansa’s fervent whisper, “Oh, he’s so beautiful.” Ser Loras Tyrell was slender as a reed, dressed in a suit of fabulous silver armor polished to a blinding sheen and filigreed with twining black vines and tiny blue forget-me-nots. The commons realized in the same instant as Ned that the blue of the flowers came from sapphires; a gasp went up from a thousand throats. Across the boy’s shoulders his cloak hung heavy. It was woven of forget-me-nots, real ones, hundreds of fresh blooms sewn to a heavy woolen cape. —AGOT - Eddard VII

During the second day of the tourney, Sansa wore the red rose in her hair:

The boy from Highgarden did something with his legs, and his horse pranced sideways, nimble as a dancer. Sansa clutched at his arm. “Father, don’t let Ser Gregor hurt him,” she said. Ned saw she was wearing the rose that Ser Loras had given her yesterday. Jory had told him about that as well. —AGOT - Eddard VII

The Tourney at the Gates of the Moon

And at this point in the Books, Sansa, as Alayne Stone, is organizing a tourney to elect the members of Robert Arryn’s personal guard, named the Brotherhood of the Winged Knights.

Alayne Stone’s betrothed, Harrold Hardyng, known as Harry the Heir, is competing in the tourney.

Since her betrothed is competing in the jousting and since she is daughter of Petyr Baelish, Lord Protector of the Vale, Alayne Stone has great chances to be crowned the Queen of Love and Beauty of the tourney.

The Tourney at Ashford Meadows

Sansa has also strong links with the Tourney at Ashford Meadows, but this is a matter for another time.

Failed betrothal to a Baratheon:

Both Lyanna and Sansa were betrothed with a Baratheon, Lyanna with Robert and Sansa with Joffrey:

If Lyanna had lived, we should have been brothers, bound by blood as well as affection. Well, it is not too late. I have a son. You have a daughter. My Joff and your Sansa shall join our houses, as Lyanna and I might once have done. —AGOT - Eddard I

There is also this parallel between Jenny of Oldstones, Lyanna & Sansa [I wrote about it here]:

Note the parallels between Duncan Targaryen, his betrothed Baratheon and Jenny of Oldstones & Rhaegar Targaryen, Lyanna Stark and her betrothed Robert Baratheon: A Targaryen prince breaking an engagement with a member of House Baratheon that then originates a rebellion.

And this: Sansa was betrothed with Joffrey “Baratheon” and the engagement was broken in the middle of a war with Robb Stark leading an army against King Joffrey, and Jon almost breaking his vows to join Robb’s army to avenge Ned’s death and rescue their sisters. All of which makes me think about these parallels: Sansa being a hostage in King’s Landing & Lyanna’s “abduction”, Ned’s death & Rickard’s death, Robb’s death & Brandon’s death. And that leaves Jon to possibly play the role of Ned Stark in the future.

Basically if Jon and Sansa happens, they will parallel two stories: Rhaegar and Lyanna, a Targaryen/Stark couple; and Ned and Cat, a Stark/Tully couple.

And right now in the Books, Sansa Stark, under the disguise of Alayne Stone, is betrothed with a Robert-like young man: Harrold Hardyng, also known as Harry the Heir:

Both orphaned boys

Both wards at the Vale

Both handsome and physically strong

Both linked to Jon Arryn and the Vale

Both fathered bastards in the Vale: Mya Stone // Alys Stone

Both involved in a conflict with a cousin: Robert killed his cousin Rhaegar and became King // If Robert Arryn dies, his cousin Harry will be new Lord Arryn.

Both betrothed to a Stark girl: Lyanna Stark // (Alayne Stone) Sansa Stark

Pleading Ned to protect part of themselves:

"Stop them," Sansa pleaded, "don't let them do it, please, please, it wasn't Lady, it was Nymeria, Arya did it, you can't, it wasn't Lady, don't let them hurt Lady, I'll make her be good, I promise, I promise …" She started to cry.

—AGOT - Eddard III

He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.

—AGOT - Eddard IV

"Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

—AGOT - Eddard XIII

Promise me, Ned, his sister had whispered from her bed of blood. She had loved the scent of winter roses.

—AGOT - Eddard XV

Lyanna was pleading to her brother Ned to protect her son, while Sansa was pleading to her father Ned to protect her direwolf, Lady, part of Sansa’s soul. Later, Ned regretted failing Sansa…

Sansa’s pleading and repeating the word “promise”, triggered Ned’s trauma over Lyanna’s death. That also happened when Robert asked Ned to protect his children.

Targaryen Imagery:

Sansa’s chapters hide hints about Lyanna’s son, Jon Snow, true parentage.

Indeed, Sansa Stark has a very interesting imagery of white/off-white fabrics stained with blood and fire. I wrote more about it here.

Sansa’s Ivory silk dress stained with blood orange juice and ashes

“Liar,” Arya said. Her hand clenched the blood orange so hard that red juice oozed between her fingers.

“Go ahead, call me all the names you want,” Sansa said airily. “You won’t dare when I’m married to Joffrey. You’ll have to bow to me and call me Your Grace.” She shrieked as Arya flung the orange across the table. It caught her in the middle of the forehead with a wet squish and plopped down into her lap.

“You have juice on your face, Your Grace,” Arya said.

It was running down her nose and stinging her eyes. Sansa wiped it away with a napkin. When she saw what the fruit in her lap had done to her beautiful ivory silk dress, she shrieked again. “You’re horrible,” she screamed at her sister. “They should have killed you instead of Lady!”

(…)

“Arya started it,” Sansa said quickly, anxious to have the first word. “She called me a liar and threw an orange at me and spoiled my dress, the ivory silk, the one Queen Cersei gave me when I was betrothed to Prince Joffrey. She hates that I’m going to marry the prince. She tries to spoil everything, Father, she can’t stand for anything to be beautiful or nice or splendid.”

(…)

“Sansa stalked away with her head up. She was to be a queen, and queens did not cry. At least not where people could see. When she reached her bedchamber, she barred the door and took off her dress. The blood orange had left a blotchy red stain on the silk. “I hate her!” she screamed. She balled up the dress and flung it into the cold hearth, on top of the ashes of last night’s fire. When she saw that the stain had bled through onto her underskirt, she began to sob despite herself. She ripped off the rest of her clothes wildly, threw herself into bed, and cried herself back to sleep.”

—A Game of Thrones - Sansa III

When the king’s herald moved forward, Sansa realized the moment was almost at hand. She smoothed down the cloth of her skirt nervously. She was dressed in mourning, as a sign of respect for the dead king, but she had taken special care to make herself beautiful. Her gown was the ivory silk that the queen had given her, the one Arya had ruined, but she’d had them dye it black and you couldn’t see the stain at all. She had fretted over her jewelry for hours and finally decided upon the elegant simplicity of a plain silver chain.

—A Game of Thrones - Sansa V

Take note that the ivory silk dress was a “betrothal gift” from Cersei, that Sansa later had to “dye it black” so the “blood and fire stain” couldn’t be seen at all.

Oh George! Your wording here is just genius!

Sansa’s bedclothes stained with her moonblood and fire

When she woke, the pale light of morning was slanting through her window, yet she felt as sick and achy as if she had not slept at all. There was something sticky on her thighs. When she threw back the blanket and saw the blood, all she could think was that her dream had somehow come true. She remembered the knives inside her, twisting and ripping. She squirmed away in horror, kicking at the sheets and falling to the floor, breathing raggedly, naked, bloodied, and afraid.

But as she crouched there, on her hands and knees, understanding came. “No, please,” Sansa whimpered, “please, no.” She didn’t want this happening to her, not now, not here, not now, not now, not now, not now.

Madness took hold of her. Pulling herself up by the bedpost, she went to the basin and washed between her legs, scrubbing away all the stickiness. By the time she was done, the water was pink with blood. When her maidservants saw it they would know. Then she remembered the bedclothes. She rushed back to the bed and stared in horror at the dark red stain and the tale it told. All she could think was that she had to get rid of it, or else they’d see. She couldn’t let them see, or they’d marry her to Joffrey and make her lay with him.

Snatching up her knife, Sansa hacked at the sheet, cutting out the stain. If they ask me about the hole, what will I say? Tears ran down her face. She pulled the torn sheet from the bed, and the stained blanket as well. I’ll have to burn them. She balled up the evidence, stuffed it in the fireplace, drenched it in oil from her bedside lamp, and lit it afire. Then she realized that the blood had soaked through the sheet into the featherbed, so she bundled that up as well, but it was big and cumbersome, hard to move. Sansa could get only half of it into the fire. She was on her knees, struggling to shove the mattress into the flames as thick grey smoke eddied around her and filled the room, when the door burst open and she heard her maid gasp.

In the end it took three of them to pull her away. And it was all for nothing. The bedclothes were burnt, but by the time they carried her off her thighs were bloody again. It was as if her own body had betrayed her to Joffrey, unfurling a banner of Lannister crimson for all the world to see.

—A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV

Even if the color of the bedclothes was not stated as white/off-white, it’s very probable that they were of white or an off-white color, like ivory. So, again, we find this very interesting imagery in Sansa’s chapters: white/off-white fabrics stained with blood and fire.

And this passage of a bed stained with blood that must be hidden makes me think about Ned’s dream of Lyanna’s death:

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

—A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

So I think there is another pattern here: betrothal, marriage and giving birth.

As I said before, the ivory silk dress was a “betrothal gift” from Cersei; and, as Sansa stated, the bedclothes stained with her moonblood was a proof of her having reached her womanhood and thus able to do her duty and marry Joffrey and bear his children.

Moreover, after Sansa’s first moonblood, she had this conversation with Cersei:

“I don’t blame you. Between Tyrion and Lord Stannis, everything I eat tastes of ash. And now you’re setting fires as well. What did you hope to accomplish?”

Sansa lowered her head. “The blood frightened me.”

“The blood is the seal of your womanhood. Lady Catelyn might have prepared you. You’ve had your first flowering, no more.”

Sansa had never felt less flowery. “My lady mother told me, but I … I thought it would be different.”

“Different how?”

“I don’t know. Less … less messy, and more magical.”

Queen Cersei laughed. “Wait until you birth a child, Sansa. A woman’s life is nine parts mess to one part magic, you’ll learn that soon enough … and the parts that look like magic often turn out to be messiest of all.” She took a sip of milk. “So now you are a woman. Do you have the least idea of what that means?”

“It means that I am now fit to be wedded and bedded,” said Sansa, “and to bear children for the king.”

—A Clash of Kings - Sansa IV

An ivory silk dress, a “betrothal gift” from Cersei, that Sansa later had to “dye it black”, so the “blood and fire stain” couldn’t be seen at all, sounds pretty much like Lyanna Stark’s betrothal to Robert Baratheon being “stained” by Rhaegar Targaryen. And then, of course, of Jon Snow hidden in the Wall as a Black Brother/Black Knight of the Night’s Watch.

Again, Sansa’s bedclothes stained with her flowering blood and then with fire to hide the stain, sounds pretty much like Lyanna Stark’s bed of blood after she gave birth Jon Snow, the baby that had to be hidden so his Targaryen identity couldn’t be seem at all.

A white wool cloak stained by blood and fire

When she crawled out of bed, long moments later, she was alone. She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire. The sky outside was darker by then, with only a few pale green ghosts dancing against the stars. A chill wind was blowing, banging the shutters. Sansa was cold. She shook out the torn cloak and huddled beneath it on the floor, shivering.

—A Clash of Kings - Sansa VII

Out of the three passages with this imagery of white/off-white fabrics stained with blood and fire, this one, the one you asked for, has the more evident references of Jon Snow’s true parentage as the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark.

Here we have Sansa huddled beneath a white kingsguard cloak stained by blood of the death during the Battle of the Blackwater and wildfire.

I think most of the readers get distracted from the Jon Snow’s true parentage hints here, because they romanticize this scene and believe it foreshadows some romantic future events for her involving the Hound, based in the fact that Sansa had covered herself with “the Hounds cloak” twice. But the relationship between Sansa and the white cloaks is -by far- larger than that; it has more to do with the ideals of knighthood and chivalry, than with the men wearing them.

As you can see, GRRM has plagued Sansa’s chapters with hints of Lyanna’s son, Jon Snow, true parentage.

Dead before their time:

Lyanna:

“She [Lyanna] was,” Eddard Stark agreed, “beautiful, and willful, and dead before her time.”

—AGOT - Arya II

Sansa:

And so many others were missing. Where had the rest of them gone? Sansa wondered. Vainly, she searched for friendly faces. Not one of them would meet her eyes. It was as if she had become a ghost, dead before her time.

—AGOT - Sansa V

Lyanna and Lady (part of Sansa’s soul) both died in the south, before their time.

Lyanna’s ghost has haunted Cersei over the years, Cersei wanted to marry Rhaegar but ended married with Robert. Both Rhaegar and Robert loved Lyanna.

Lady is mentioned in the Books as a “shade”, a synonym for ghost. And after Ned’s death, Sansa became a ghost at the Red Keep’s court.

Sansa and Lady also haunt Cersei, as she remembered them both during her walk of atonement:

The queen began to see familiar faces. (...) She saw Ned Stark, and beside him little Sansa with her auburn hair and a shaggy grey dog that might have been her wolf.

—ADWD - Cersei II

At the end, only the remains of Lyanna and Lady returned home, to the North, to Winterfell.

Ladies of Winterfell:

Lyanna’s and Lady’s bones are buried at Winterfell, what makes them literally Ladies of Winterfell:

“She was more beautiful than that,” the king said after a silence. His eyes lingered on Lyanna’s face, as if he could will her back to life. Finally he rose, made awkward by his weight. “Ah, damn it, Ned, did you have to bury her in a place like this?” His voice was hoarse with remembered grief. “She deserved more than darkness …” “She was a Stark of Winterfell,” Ned said quietly. “This is her place.”

—AGOT - Eddard I

Shortly, Jory brought him Ice. When it was over, he said, “Choose four men and have them take the body north. Bury her at Winterfell.” “All that way?” Jory said, astonished. “All that way,” Ned affirmed. “The Lannister woman shall never have this skin.”

—AGOT - Eddard III

Bran felt all cold inside. “She lost her wolf,” he said, weakly, remembering the day when four of his father’s guardsmen had returned from the south with Lady’s bones. Summer and Grey Wind and Shaggydog had begun to howl before they crossed the drawbridge, in voices drawn and desolate. Beneath the shadow of the First Keep was an ancient lichyard, its headstones spotted with pale lichen, where the old Kings of Winter had laid their faithful servants. It was there they buried Lady, while her brothers stalked between the graves like restless shadows. She had gone south, and only her bones had returned.

—AGOT - Bran VI

Lady’s death and his return to the North to rest in Winterfell is linked with Lyanna’s death and her own path back home. I wrote about this before:

Now, back to Lady’s death. We know that this event is a turning point in Sansa’s arc, but other than that, the paragraphs leading to the direwolf’s execution are laden with symbolism and foreshadowing, not only for Sansa, but for Ned as well.

During the “trial”, Ned decides that he will take Lady’s life himself, in order to avoid having a butcher like Ilyn Payne do the execution. Then, before he struck, he pronounced her name in the same fashion Robb and Jon called the name of their direwolves before they both died. This for me foreshadows Ned’s own death. Also, before Lady’s death, Ned pleads King Robert to change his decision on putting down the direwolf, appealing to the memory of Lyanna, the woman Robert loved. Similarly, before Ned’s execution at the steps of the Sept of Baelor, Sansa pleads King Joffrey to spare her father’s life, appealing to the love he has for her. As we know, both pleas fell on deaf ears and both Lady and Ned lost their lives; bringing the story full circle, as Ilyn Payne himself cut off Ned’s head.

Another interesting thing is that before Lady’s death we have direct and indirect references to Lyanna Stark. We have the direct reference when Ned appealed to the love Robert Baratheon bore Lyanna, in order to save Lady’s life, and the indirect one when he ordered Jory to choose four men to return Lady’s body to the north, to bury her in Winterfell. This order Ned gave to his men alludes to his own decision to take Lyanna’s body to Winterfell to be buried in the crypts, after her demise, brought on by her doomed love affair with Rhaegar Targaryen.

And to finish this post, here some gifsets that illustrate some of the discussed parallels:

Sansa Stark and Lyanna Stark + parallels

Pleading

She-wolves of Winterfell

Beautiful, Captivating Child-Women

Hidden Metal ft. hair parallels

Broken ‘Baratheon’ Engagements ft. more hair parallels

Fair Maidens

BONUS

Lyanna and Sansa in the first Show pilot:

In The Original, Terrible ‘Game Of Thrones’ Pilot That Never Aired, there was a scene where Cersei burned the feather that Robert left at Lyanna’s statue in the Winterfell Crypts:

The Cersei scene that might ruffle some feathers

Let’s begin with a defining scene between King Robert Baratheon and Ned Stark in the Winterfell crypts.

The scene that aired on HBO is slightly different from the scene in the Cushing script, but the gist is the same. Robert asks Ned to be his new Hand of the King, a position left open after Jon Arryn’s death. That’s when Robert places something small but highly symbolic on a statue of his onetime betrothed, Lyanna Stark: a feather.

And that pretty much sums up the sequence you saw in Season 1

But in the script found in the Cushing library, Queen Cersei plays a pivotal role in this exchange’s aftermath ― so much so that her involvement would have changed a Season 5 episode, the recent Season 8 teaser and possibly more.

The following scene is written into the pilot script found at Cushing and involves Cersei visiting the crypts right before the feast at Winterfell:

Cersei exits the crypts, crosses the courtyard and walks into the antechamber between the kitchen and the Winterfell great hall. The celebration for the king’s arrival is underway, and servants are rushing past her with food. The queen’s handmaidens make adjustments to her outfit and remove her heavy fur.

Then Cersei reveals something she has inside her sleeve:

“A word with the Stark girl”. I have no doubt this meant Sansa.

We didn’t get to watch this scene, Cersei never came down to the Winterfell Crypts, and she never took the feather Robert left there for Lyanna. But a few seasons later, we got to watch a scene of Sansa at the Winterfell Crypts, next to her aunt Lyanna’s statue, where she found the same feather that King Robert left there years ago...

...And Petyr Baelish told her the story of Lyanna and Rhaegar at the Tourney of Harrenhal.... I wrote more about it here.

I hope this is enough.

Thanks for your message and good night.

#Sansa Stark #Lyanna Stark #parallels #anon ask #Sansa & Lyanna parallels #Lyanna & Sansa parallels

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jackoshadows · 5 years ago

Text

So this is a write up on the Jon Snow - Sansa Stark relationship in the books with quotes and excerpts. For the folks who are interested in knowing where these two characters really stand with each other rather than the fanon version that’s often seen on the interwebs.

The relationship between Jon and Sansa can be best described as ‘Indifferent and distant siblings’ and they are the least close out of all the Starks.

The 5 times Jon mentions Sansa in his 42 POV chapters include thoughts on Sansa brushing lady and singing, Sansa being with Arya in KL and losing Lady, her being enchanted if she sees the magical wall, and her telling him how to talk to girls. Like Arya often does, Jon qualifies his description of Sansa with an ‘even’ to indicate how she is different to his other siblings.

He missed his true brothers: little Rickon, bright eyes shining as he begged for a sweet; Robb, his rival and best friend and constant companion; Bran, stubborn and curious, always wanting to follow and join in whatever Jon and Robb were doing. He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but "my half brother" since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant. And Arya . . . he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful.

Compare the descriptions he gives his other siblings to what he says about Sansa. I have often read that Sansa calling Jon ‘Half brother’ or bastard was not a big deal because all of Jon’s siblings did it. And this is true. But the difference is that Sansa ALWAYS made sure to treat Jon that way, when his other siblings interacted with Jon normally. Something that Jon noticed enough that this was the only thing that he highlights for her.

It’s clear from the text that Sansa treated Jon with condescending pity. I would argue that Sansa’s treatment of Arya was actually far worse than the way she treated Jon. For Sansa, Jon was just a low class bastard and his faults were only natural because he was ‘common’. Sansa even condescends to educate him on how to properly talk to girls. Arya on the other hand got bullied because she was a high class noble but committed the sin of being unsatisfactory in terms of looks and behavior.

Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake.

This is why it made no sense when the show had Sansa apologizing to Jon and completely bypassed Sansa’s treatment of Arya in the books, making it look like Arya was the mean sister. If Sansa had to apologize to anyone it would be to Arya and not Jon.

Sansa’s patronizing pity for Jon comes from the fact that he is of low birth. She attributes emotions like ‘jealousy’ to his birth and pities him for it

Sansa sighed as she stitched. "Poor Jon," she said. "He gets jealous because he's a bastard." - AGoT

If this was what the Night’s Watch was truly like, she felt sorry for her bastard half brother, Jon. - AGoT

She sang for mercy, for the living and the dead alike, for Bran and Rickon and Robb, for her sister Arya and her bastard brother Jon Snow, away off on the Wall. - AGoT

These are the only times Jon is mentioned in Sansa’s POV chapters till AFfC.

When we come to their emotional thoughts of connection and longing and love, let’s see what happens there. For Jon:

He remembered the day he had left Winterfell, all the bittersweet farewells; Bran lying broken, Robb with snow in his hair, Arya raining kisses on him after he’d given her Needle.

Even the thought made him feel foolish; he was a man grown now, a black brother of the Night’s Watch, not the boy who’d once sat at Old Nan’s feet with Bran and Robb and Arya.

That might mean Lord Eddard would return to Winterfell, and his sisters as well. He might even be allowed to visit them, with Lord Mormont’s permission. It would be good to see Arya’s grin again and to talk with his father.

Jon Snow straightened himself and took a long deep breath. Forgive me, Father. Robb, Arya, Bran . . . forgive me, I cannot help you. He has the truth of it. This is my place.

Playing, Jon thought in astonishment, grown men playing like children, throwing snowballs the way Bran and Arya once did, and Robb and me before them.

We know Sansa has played with Bran and Arya and snowballs. But she is not included in Jon’s nostalgic memories.

We see something similar in Sansa’s POV chapters about her family

Tommen was all of eight. He reminded her of her own little brother, Bran. They were of an age. Bran was back at Winterfell, a cripple, yet safe. Sansa would have given anything to be with him.

If I give him sons, he may come to love me. She would name them Eddard and Brandon and Rickon, and raise them all to be as valiant as Ser Loras. And to hate Lannisters, too. In Sansa's dreams, her children looked just like the brothers she had lost. Sometimes there was even a girl who looked like Arya.

Merry Crane always had an amusing story, and little Lady Bulwer reminded her of Arya, though not so fierce.

She had last seen snow the day she'd left Winterfell. That was a lighter fall than this, she remembered. Robb had melting flakes in his hair when he hugged me, and the snowball Arya tried to make kept coming apart in her hands.

I don't want any Lannister, she wanted to say. I want Willas, I want Highgarden and the puppies and the barge, and sons named Eddard and Bran and Rickon.

That was such a sweet dream, Sansa thought drowsily. She had been back in Winterfell, running through the godswood with her Lady. Her father had been there, and her brothers, all of them warm and safe. If only dreaming could make it so . . .

If Lady was here, I would not be afraid. Lady was dead, though; Robb, Bran, Rickon, Arya, her father, her mother, even Septa Mordane. All of them are dead but me. She was alone in the world now.

She remembered a summer's snow in Winterfell when Arya and Bran had ambushed her as she emerged from the keep one morning. They'd each had a dozen snowballs to hand, and she'd had none. Bran had been perched on the roof of the covered bridge, out of reach, but Sansa had chased Arya through the stables and around the kitchen until both of them were breathless.

She had dreamt that she was little, still sharing a bedchamber with her sister Arya.

Jon is completely absent from her thoughts about her childhood in Winterfell and missing her family.

Let’s next look at how Jon treats Arya and Sansa’s respective marriages to Stark enemies. Upon being told by Stannis that Sansa is now lady Lannister, Jon’s immediate thoughts about all this is how Tyrion is faring as a kinslayer! He does not spare a single thought for a sister forcefully married off or her whereabouts and if she was doing okay. Contrast his complete indifference to Robb and Catelyn’s reaction to this news:

Robb took her hand. "They married her to Tyrion Lannister." Catelyn's fingers clutched at his. "The Imp." "He's the Kingslayer's brother. Oathbreaking runs in their blood." Robb's fingers brushed the pommel of his sword. "If I could I'd take his ugly head off. Sansa would be a widow then, and free. There's no other way that I can see. They made her speak the vows before a septon and don a crimson cloak." Catelyn remembered the twisted little man she had seized at the crossroads inn and carried all the way to the Eyrie. "I should have let Lysa push him out her Moon Door. My poor sweet Sansa . . . why would anyone do this to her?" - ASoS

Their rage here is exactly what Jon feels when he hears about Arya’s marriage

By now she’d be eleven, Jon thought. Still a child. “I have no sister. Only brothers. Only you.” Lady Catelyn would have rejoiced to hear those words, he knew. That did not make them easier to say. His fingers closed around the parchment. Would that they could crush Ramsay Bolton’s throat as easily. - ADwD

Sansa is the same when it comes to her complete indifference to Jon. We hear all the time about how Sansa is the queen of compassion and that there’s no character in the whole of asoiaf who is kinder than Sansa Stark. But get this – Sansa has been masquerading as a bastard in the Vale this whole time and not once – not once – does she think of the bastard brother that she grew up with. There is no regret there for how she looked down on her bastard brother.

Catelyn for instance feels a twinge of guilt when she meets Mya Stone in the Vale

It did not please her; it was an effort for Catelyn to keep the smile on her face. Stone was a bastard's name in the Vale, as Snow was in the north, and Flowers in Highgarden; in each of the Seven Kingdoms, custom had fashioned a surname for children born with no names of their own. Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned's bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once. She struggled to find words for a reply.

Meanwhile after being reminded by Myranda Royce that Jon exists, Sansa:

She had not thought of Jon in ages. - AFfC

This is true. The last time she thought of Jon was the three times mentioned above in book one AGoT. Even in book 4 we see Sansa thinking of a way to get away from Littlefinger and never once remembers Jon at the wall.

Littlefinger and Lord Petyr looked so very much alike. She would have fled them both, perhaps, but there was nowhere for her to go. Winterfell was burned and desolate, Bran and Rickon dead and cold. Robb had been betrayed and murdered at the Twins, along with their lady mother. Tyrion had been put to death for killing Joffrey, and if she ever returned to King's Landing the queen would have her head as well. The aunt she'd hoped would keep her safe had tried to murder her instead. Her uncle Edmure was a captive of the Freys, while her great-uncle the Blackfish was under siege at Riverrun.

This is a contrast to Arya trying her best to get to the wall and Jon after leaving KL and sadly failing at every attempt. That’s why the show’s decision to reunite Jon and Sansa while leaving out Arya till the very end is a massive disservice to both relationships in the books. GRRM has invested everything in Jon and Arya’s relationship and nothing in Jon and Sansa’s. Arya trying for 3 books to get to Jon and failing and finally getting there? That’s actual payoff. Sansa thinking once of wanting to see the bastard brother that she forgot about? D&D – let’s unite Sansa with Jon!

Much is made of the ‘it would be sweet to see him again’ line, ignoring the couple of lines that comes before.

She had not thought of Jon in ages. He was only her half brother, but still . . . with Robb and Bran and Rickon dead, Jon Snow was the only brother that remained to her. I am a bastard too now, just like him. Oh, it would be so sweet, to see him once again.

Lines that demonstrate that Sansa STILL does not get it when it comes to class and relationships. Her attitude here is more – oh well, all my real brothers are dead and only Jon is left, so I will have to make do since I have been reduced to his level it’s ok now.

Then there’s the other line – “Winterfell belongs to my sister Sansa". I have already discussed this in another post but this was more about Jon kicking down the position to the next in line rather than his overwhelming love for Sansa. At this point Jon had already decided not to accept the offer because of Stannis’ precondition that he burn down the Winterfell Godswood. It’s possible that Jon does accept the KITN/Lord of Winterfell position in the next book if Robb’s will comes into the picture.

And finally we have heard often of Jon’s sexist dislike of the ladies when it’s more Jon’s disdain for a type that embodies Catelyn and Sansa. Jon likes the ladies just fine – he has an appreciation for Alys Karstark and she is not running around waving a sword. It’s their personality - a personality that mirrors Arya’s - that he finds attractive.

A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

Here Jon demonstrates a weird contempt for ladies brushing their hair. Where does he get this from from I wonder?

Arya was a trial, it must be said. Half a boy and half a wolf pup. Forbid her anything and it became her heart's desire. She had Ned's long face, and brown hair that always looked as though a bird had been nesting in it. I despaired of ever making a lady of her. She collected scabs as other girls collect dolls, and would say anything that came into her head. - Catelyn VII, ACOK

He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest.

And Arya . . . he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful.

She had never cared if she was pretty…Only her father had ever called her that. Him, and Jon Snow, sometimes. Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would wash and brush her hair…the way her sister did. To her sister and her sister’s friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface."

“…my hair’s messy and my nails are dirty and my feet are all hard.” Robb wouldn’t care about that, probably, but her mother would. Lady Catelyn always wanted her to be like Sansa, to sing and dance and sew and mind her courtesies. Just thinking of it made Arya try to comb her hair with her fingers, but it was all tangles and mats, and all she did was tear some out."

Sansa was a lady at three, always so courteous and eager to please. She loved nothing so well as tales of knightly valor. Men would say she had my look, but she will grow into a woman far more beautiful than I ever was, you can see that. I often sent away her maid so I could brush her hair myself. She had auburn hair, lighter than mine, and so thick and soft . . . the red in it would catch the light of the torches and shine like copper.

Poor Arya’s disdain for hair brushing is probably why Jon looks down on the ladies spending time on their hair. Jon has always considered Arya an outsider like him and sees the both of them as being unfairly treated by the likes of Catelyn and Sansa. Everything that Jon appreciates in a woman shows us glimpses of Arya and everything that Jon dislikes shows us glimpses of Cat and Sansa.

This is indicative of the fact that growing up Arya was pretty much the only positive female figure in his life and that is why he is looking for an ‘Arya’ in the women he loves and befriends. This is why he gives Needle to Arya, allows spearwives to take over an entire castle and defend it and is appreciative of ‘warrior princesses’.

For example, Alys is physically supposed to look like Arya and both Melisandre and Jon mistake her for Arya in her visions. But, it’s only after they interact and speak that Jon compares her to Arya – because it’s her bravery that reminds him of his little sister.

Jon turned to Alys Karstark. “My lady. Are you ready?” “Yes. Oh, yes.” “You’re not scared?” The girl smiled in a way that reminded Jon so much of his little sister that it almost broke his heart. “Let him be scared of me.” The snowflakes were melting on her cheeks, but her hair was wrapped in a swirl of lace that Satin had found somewhere, and the snow had begun to collect there, giving her a frosty crown. Her cheeks were flushed and red, and her eyes sparkled. “Winter’s lady.” Jon squeezed her hand.

There’s also some nonsense being peddled around that Jon had a crush on Sansa because he described her as looking “radiant”. It’s more likely that this is GRRM just being descriptive using character POVs. I mean, we also have Ned gushing about how hot Bobby Baratheon was - thoughts that spawned a thousand NedRob shipping fans...

Fifteen years past, when they had ridden forth to win a throne, the Lord of Storm’s End had been clean-shaven, clear-eyed, and muscled like a maiden’s fantasy. Six and a half feet tall, he towered over lesser men, and when he donned his armor and the great antlered helmet of his House, he became a veritable giant. He’d had a giant’s strength too, his weapon of choice a spiked iron warhammer that Ned could scarcely lift. In those days, the smell of leather and blood had clung to him like perfume.

This does not imply that Ned had a crush on Robert Baratheon. Jon also calls Jaime and Cersei beautiful – does not mean he has a crush on them.

This is Jon’s description of Satin

The boy claimed to be eighteen, older than Jon, but he was green as summer grass for all that. Satin, they called him, even in the wool and mail and boiled leather of the Night’s Watch; the name he’d gotten in the brothel where he’d been born and raised. He was pretty as a girl with his dark eyes, soft skin, and raven’s ringlets.

Soft skin? Uh... But - no offense to the many valid Jon/Satin shippers out there - Jon/Satin is not a cannon romantic relationship unfortunately. Even though there is more interaction and an emotional connection between Jon and Satin in the books to justify shipping them romantically than there is for Jon and Sansa.

So in conclusion, Jon and Sansa have pretty much a non-existent relationship in the books and their plots do not in any way cross or connect with each other. I suspect that will not change in the near future considering Jon is most probably going to become enmeshed in the grand Northern conspiracy that includes Rickon and Arya and has to fight the Others beyond the wall where Bran is. If he does meet up with Sansa, it may well be at the very end as these are two characters who don’t have much of a plot purpose or relationship that requires meeting up.

#Jon Snow #Sansa Stark #Arya Stark #Catelyn Stark #Jon Snow and his relationships with the women in his family #ASoIaF #anti-D&D #anti-GOT #Sansa and Jon #anti Jonsa

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secretlyatargaryen · 4 years ago

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I’ve always had a lot of thoughts about Seasons of My Love and what it means for Tyrion, and I’ve thought for the longest time that each stanza represents an important woman in his life: summer, Cersei; autumn, Sansa; and winter, Daenerys. What do you think its significance regarding Tyrion is?

The song is associated with many different female characters in Tyrion’s narrative.

It’s usually associated with Tysha, of course, and Tysha is always “summer” because she is his first love, and summer is representative of youth and innocence and joy, in literature in general but particularly in asoiaf because of how the seasons work in this world. I also think this association fits with Tysha and what she means to Tyrion because summer also is symbolic of a joyful innocence that can’t last, and what happened with Tysha was a traumatic event in Tyrion’s life, and that relationship was cruelly taken away from him and replaced by pain and bitterness. Although Tysha had dark hair, and the song’s lyrics also occasionally seem to represent hair color.

Interestingly, Cersei is twice associated with summer:

Through the door came the soft sound of the high harp, mingled with a trilling of pipes. The singer's voice was muffled by the thick walls, yet Tyrion knew the verse. I loved a maid as fair as summer, he remembered, with sunlight in her hair . . .

Ser Meryn Trant guarded the queen's door this night. His muttered "My lord" struck Tyrion as a tad grudging, but he opened the door nonetheless. The song broke off abruptly as he strode into his sister's bedchamber.

and

Is this the Cersei that Jaime sees? When she smiled, you saw how beautiful she was, truly. I loved a maid as fair as summer, with sunlight in her hair. He almost felt sorry for poisoning her.

The obvious interpretation here is that Cersei literally has golden hair, and interestingly enough this specific association with “sunlight” is also used by Ned.

Cersei Lannister's face seemed to float before him in the darkness. Her hair was full of sunlight, but there was mockery in her smile.

I’ve written before about how Tyrioln’s relationship with Cersei shapes his conception of women / himself as a romantic/sexual partner because she would be his most important early female influence, and she rejected him. So “summer” here could be young Tyrion yearning for that early connection to the feminine / a mother’s love, maybe before he was old enough to understand that Cersei would never love him.

The golden hair of the Lannisters is also a crucial symbol in Tyrion’s narrative because it represents everything that marks him as apart from his family. His siblings are “golden” and Tyrion’s hair is white-blond (as white as winter?)

Although, like you, I have often associated it with Daenerys, “white as winter” is associated with Shae in the text.

A whiff of something rank made him turn his head. Shae stood in the door behind him, dressed in the silvery robe he'd given her. I loved a maid as white as winter, with moonglow in her hair. Behind her stood one of the begging brothers, a portly man in filthy patched robes, his bare feet crusty with dirt, a bowl hung about his neck on a leather thong where a septon would have worn a crystal. The smell of him would have gagged a rat.

"Lord Varys has come to see you," Shae announced.

Obviously if we look at it as representing literal hair color it fits Dany more, and Shae has dark hair, but the lyrics still fit with the scene. It’s nighttime, so Shae perhaps has “moonglow” shining in her dark hair.

But what I think is more interesting is the symbolic significance. If summer is youth and joy and innocence, winter is the cynicism of adulthood. Winter is the death of growing things. In this world, winter is quite literally death as well.

In the scene, Tyrion smells something “rank” right before he sees Shae, and then he realizes that it is Varys disguised as a begging brother. Tyrion does not recognize Varys right away but Shae does. This shows that Shae is perceptive and adapt at identifying deception. It also highlights the lie of Tyrion and Shae’s relationship. Of course both of them know it’s a lie but Tyrion lets himself believe it because of his own trauma.

This motif of disguise is also quite literally connected to death, in an ironic (and chillng) way.

"A different look, a different smell, a different way of walking," said Tyrion. "Most men would be deceived."

"And most women, maybe. But not whores. A whore learns to see the man, not his garb, or she turns up dead in an alley."

And of course, Shae will die at Tyrion’s hands. I’ve talked about this before but it’s ironic because she talks about how she’s learned to see past a man’s immediate appearance, yet she doesn’t ever consider Tyrion a threat to her. She’s often dismissive of what he says in her scenes with him, and even when he finds her in Tywin’s bedchamber she still seems to think that she can charm him by using the words that she used against him at his trial. Note that I’m not saying this to blame Shae for what happens to her, which was one of Tyrion’s darkest acts. What I am saying is that despite what she says, I don’t think Shae ever did see past Tyrion’s appearance. I think she saw him merely as a rich dwarf that she could exploit. Again, not that that’s her fault because he hired her to do that, but it’s still not a good thing. So this one’s pretty dark. Shae (and what he does to her) represents the winter of Tyrion’s life, the long dark of his soul.

I also associate Sansa with “red as autumn,” but it actually appears in a Catelyn chapter, and not in any Tyrion chapters.

After a time the candle guttered and went out. Moonlight slanted between the slats of the shutters, laying pale silvery bars across her father's face. She could hear the soft whisper of his labored breathing, the endless rush of waters, the faint chords of some love song drifting up from the yard, so sad and sweet. "I loved a maid as red as autumn," Rymund sang, "with sunset in her hair."

Of course, Catelyn herself has hair that is “as red as autumn.” The scene also takes place at sunset. And of course autumn and sunset both symbolize dying, a fitting motif here because Catelyn is sitting by her father’s deathbed. It’s a very sad scene, and most of Catelyn’s chapters after Ned’s death have this feeling of “autumn,” of sadness and things lost. “Grief and dust and bitter longings.”

That’s also why it’s easy to associate it with Sansa, who, when she is wed to Tyrion, believes herself to be the last of the Starks, and is trapped in her own sadness. I could have sworn that Tyrion associated it with her directly, but maybe I am thinking of the scene where he says that grief had given her a beautiful, haunted look. The woman with sunset in her hair in the song is beautiful in a sad way.

The seasons all align roughly with where these women appear chronologically in their association with Tyrion. Cersei/Tysha = summer, marriage to Sansa = autumn (also Tyrion’s “autumn” because this coincides with Tyrion’s political downfall / things becoming increasingly intolerable for him in KL) and Shae = winter (Shae’s murder and Tyrion’s exile).

That leaves springtime last, and I HAVE to think Martin did this on purpose because the last book is tentatively titled “A Dream of Spring,” which could be hopeful or...a dream. Something the characters are never going to reach.

I’ve also seen “springtime” associated with Penny by some fans, I believe, because she is young and innocent. I also kind of like springtime being associated with brown hair because of earth/roots/mud representing growth, but none of that sounds good in a song.

And of course Daenerys could still be winter because the song doesn’t necessarily have to go in chronological order and as I’ve shown, more than one woman can be associated with the same lyric in different ways. Or maybe Dany will be springtime since we haven’t gotten it yet.

So what the song says about Tyrion’s development / the development of his relationships, I really don’t know. Guess we’ll have to wait and see!

#tyrion lannister #valyrian scrolls #asoiaf meta #seasons of my love

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onthesandsofdreams · 5 years ago

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To Catch A Dragon’s Eye

Fandom: ASoIaF Pairing: Ned x Rhaegar (Main), Elia x Rhaegar, Elia x Ashara (both background) Rating: T Summary: He wondered if this was what Elia felt for Ashara. If this is what Jon felt for him. He didn’t know. But one thing was perfectly clear to him, a Quiet Wolf had caught his eye. Words: 1571 Notes: A prompt fill for @asoiafrarepairs: The Quiet Wolf catches the eye of the dragon prince.

Read @ AO3

It was unprincely to sulk, Rhaegar knew.

But with his father attending Lord Whent’s tourney, his hands were tied. So he just braced himself for whatever it may come and hope that the Lords of the Realm would see his father’s state and come to him.

He heard giggles behind him, he turned and found that it was Elia and Lady Ashara. His lady wife and her companion were lovers he knew, but he didn’t care. They did not love one another, he was fond of Elia and wished for the best and knew that when the time came, she would make a fine queen. But there was no passion between then, no grand love, so who he was to deny her companionship? Lady Ashara was a good choice for lover, discreet, funny, smart and loyal, he could hardly fault Elia for choosing her.

He himself had no lover, not for the lack of want. There were many, both men and women who would take the chance to share his bed should he allow it. But, something held him back. Like there was something out there he was meant to find.

He sighed and hoped that at least the tourney would provide a distraction, if only momentarily.

*****

It was on the third day of the royal retinue’s arrival when he noticed it. His cousin, Robert, was pretty much dragging another man around. A friendly arm tossed about the man’s shoulder and they both seemed to be getting along just fine.

The man was tall, not as tall as Robert and much leaner. Dark hair and long of face, he couldn’t distinguish the man’s eyes from the distance, but the man dressed in several shades of grays and white, there was a pin on his shoulder that he couldn’t quite make. He shrugged, Robert was always good at making friends.

*****

On the third day, Arthur had accompanied him for a walk around Harrenhall, when he crossed paths with Robert, “Cousin!” Robert was all exuberance. “Look who it is, Ned! None other than my cousin.”

The second man bowed, “Your Grace,” he addressed him quite formally. “Eddard Stark, at your service.”

Ah, so that it was who Robert was dragging about yesterday. He was taller up close, and his eyes were smoke gray and solemn. “Well met Lord Stark,” he returned the greeting. “I did not know you had met my cousin already.”

“We fostered in the Eyre together, your Grace.” Ned replied easily.

Well now that made sense. He knew that his cousin Steffon had sent Robert to foster, but he had not remembered that Lord Stark had also done so. “He’s been a good foster brother, I hope?”

Robert took a few steps forward and smacked his arm, “Aye, cousin, I have. Ned over here is my brother in all but blood. Honestly, I get along with him better than with Stannis.”

No surprise there. “Well then, I am glad to hear of it cousin, Lord Stark, if you excuse me.” He continued with his walk, leaving the two men behind.

*****

“…I can’t believe what you did Lyanna, tossing wine on Benjen in front of the King, Prince Rhaegar and Princess Elia, alongside the whole court!”

Rhaegar paid attention now, it surprised him hearing Lord Stark speak, he could clearly hear the anger in his voice.

“Oh come now, Ned, don’t be like that, it wasn’t so bad!”

“No?” Ned hissed and Rhaegar had to do his best to keep listening, even when he knew he should not be. “Your behavior reflects not only you, but father, the North and House Stark. Not to mention, your betrothal to Robert, do you want them to say that you can’t behave in society?”

Silence.

“I’m sorry.”

“You should be. Do not make me write to father.”

It was then, when he decided to keep his eyes on Eddard Stark

*****

“Your eyes continue to wander to the table where the Starks sit,” Elia’s dulcet tone brought him back to reality. “Should I be worried?”

“Not at all,” he turned and faced his wife. “You have nothing to fear from the Lady Stark, if that’s what you’re asking.”

Elia nodded sagely, “Good. Then, if that is the case, you may continue to observe. Ashara speaks well of Lord Eddard,” her voice turned mischievous then. “Poor man, his elder brother had to ask Ashara for a dance on his behalf.”

He smiled, “Ah yes, he seems quite… quiet. Unlike Robert, they fostered together I believe. I wouldn’t have expected they’d get along, but… they do.”

“Ashara says his siblings call him the Quiet Wolf,” Elia turned and looked at the Stark table. “I think it suits him, a wolf is no less a wolf because he’s quiet. In fact, I’d be worried more about him than his siblings.”

He could see the wisdom on her words. He observed Eddard once more, he was talking with Robert, Eddard’s face had lost the seriousness and was quite animated, lips were curled upwards in a faint smile. “The Quiet Wolf indeed,” he said.

“You should court him, I think he could be good for you. At least he doesn’t seem to dislike me as Lord Connington does.” Elia had drawn near and whispered those words in his ears, then she gave his cheek a quick kiss. “You have my permission to misbehave.”

He snorted, bless Elia Martell.

*****

The following day, he found himself quite unexpectedly in company of Eddard. He had been reading in Lord Whent’s library, when Eddard had walked in, stopped when he had seen him and made the motion to walk out, “Forgive me your Grace,” Eddard bowed. “I did not know you were reading, I will leave you to your peace.”

“There is no need to leave Lord Stark,” he stopped him from leaving. “If you are here to read, I would welcome the company.”

“My thanks your Grace.” Eddard began to look through the shelves before selecting a tome and sitting near the fire to read.

Curiosity got the better of him, “I must confess Lord Stark, I didn’t take you for a reader.”

Eddard looked surprised. “It’s a pleasant way to spend time, it drives Robert crazy in the Eyre. Brandon and Lyanna can’t stand still long enough, only Benjen sits still for the stories.” Eddard’s face had softened a small bit speaking of Robert and his siblings. “But I quite enjoy it.”

He nodded, “I understand, I enjoy reading myself, much to the worry of certain people.”

“If I may be bold, your Grace,” at his nod, Eddard continued. “Better a learned king than not.”

He blinked surprised, that was unexpected. Many men would scoff at his interest in books, he still recalled how many had said that he was Baelor the Blessed come again, and the relief that washed over them once he took up the sword. Interesting. “Perhaps so, not many would agree.”

Eddard frowned, “Then, they don’t know anything. A king should care for his people, how can one do that in times of peace, if he doesn’t know or understand anything other than battle?”

Well, now, this was an interesting turn of events. His curiosity, already spiked grew. He arched an eyebrow, “True enough, Lord Stark.”

“Ned, if it pleases your Grace.”

He nodded, “Ned, then you may call me Rhaegar.” He hesitated, then asked. “Would you tell me of the North and Winterfell, Ned? I am afraid I have not had the chance to see it. All I know is what I have read and what my uncle Aemon writes from the Wall. I would hear it from one of its people.”

“Winterfell is home, Rhaegar…” Ned began and he watched as the serious man began to lighten up, his usually solemn face seemed younger as he spoke of his home, his father and sibling. Of the Godswoods and the Weirdwood tree, of the Wolfwood where they have hunted, of the summer snows and the blue roses, of the hot water springs underneath Winterfell and the hot water that flows like blood between its walls.

It was an astounding transformation and he felt himself being pulled in. He felt lost in both Ned’s eyes and his words. Winterfell and the North came alive, and it seemed so had Ned and a part of him that had been dormant, awoke.

And for once in his life, he craved.

*****

He wondered if this was what Elia felt for Ashara. If this is what Jon felt for him. He didn’t know. But one thing was perfectly clear to him, a Quiet Wolf had caught his eye. Elia had given her blessing and wished him well. He was thankful for that, he could only hope that Ned would like him too.

And maybe, if he allowed himself to hope and be greedy, maybe they could know love.

*****

In the tourney of Harrenhall, in the year of the false spring, Rhaegar Targaryen crowned Princess Elia Martell as Queen of Love and Beauty. And when his retinue made its way towards Dragonstone, it had a new member: Eddard Stark.

#asoiafrare #ned x rhaegar #rhaegar x ned #Rhaegar Targaryen #Ned Stark #pre asoiaf fic #au: canon divergence #prompt fill

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occupyvenus · 6 years ago

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Human Genetics 1.0.1

Plus: How closely are Jon and Daenerys related exactly?

Dear @iheartdandelions, this this is no way supposed to be an attack on you but I’ve seen you claim that Jon is more closely related to his mother than his father one too many times and felt the need to clear some things up. See this as an opportunity to learn something about this fascinating topic, rather than becoming defensive about it. You misunderstood or misinterpreted a lot of the things stated in this article and I just have to point them out.

What this isn’t about: I am not making a point about incest being necessarily bad in the asoiaf universe. I’m not arguing that Jon and Dany’s close genetic relation is a reason for them to not be together. I will not even talk about it. I don’t care. This isn’t about ships but scientific accuracy.

What this is about: Jon did not “inherit more genetic makeup from Lyanna than Rhaegar” because he looks like her. There is no conceivable way in which Jon and Dany have as little as 1,7% of their DNA in common. Both those statements are objectively and factually wrong. Jon is half Rhaegar and half Lyanna, no matter how he looks and he and Dany have anything between 30 and 50% of their DNA in common, most likely 44%. I will prove it with science and explain it in excruciating detail.

This essay is structured into the following sections:

1. DNA, Genes, Chromosomes and Alleles

2. Genotype vs Phenotype / Dominant, recessive, co-dominant and intermediate inheritance

3. Mitosis and Meiosis

4. The 1,7% were based on outdated, flawed data

5. Targcest vs Nocest / the coefficient of relationship and how closely Jon and Dany are actually related

Anyone who thinks they don’t need to refresh their knowledge on basic human genetics can feel free to jump to the last section. It might still be interesting.

1. DNA, Genes, Chromosomes and Alleles

This is the your DNA:

It is made up of about 3 billion adenine-thymine and cytosine-guanine pairs. It’s the main thing that makes you you.

Portions of DNA that code for specific proteins are called genes.

The majority of human DNA is actually not used for producing proteins and was formerly called “junk-DNA”. We falsely believed that it was pretty much meaningless. We are only now starting to understand how much non-coding-DNA influences the way our genetic code works.

Your DNA is packaged into chromosomes. Every species has a different amount of them, which is the main reason why different species can’t interbreed or why the offspring of different species (Mules, Ligers, etc) tends to be infertile. Human beings have 23 different chromosomes. 22 autosomal ones that are not sex-specific and one sex chromosome (either X or Y) that specifies your biological sex.

However, only sperm and egg cells have 23 chromosomes, which is called haploid.

All other cells in your body are diploid, having two different sets of the 22 autosomal chromosomes and 2 sex chromosomes (either two X chromosomes if you are biologically female or one X and one Y if you are biologically male). That would look like this:

You have two sets of chromosomes because you inherited one set from your mother and one set from your father. You always owe half of your genetic material to your father and half to your mother, no matter who you resemble more.

You also have DNA that isn’t packaged into chromosomes. For example your mitochondrial DNA which is only inherited through your mother. When compared to your chromosomal DNA however, it’s amount is so minuscule that it won’t influence how closely you are related to your mother and father in any meaningful way. (And no, mitochondrial DNA does not influence your appearance so this isn’t the reason why Jon resembles Lyanna more than Rhaegar.)

Gametes (sperm and eggs) only have one set of chromosomes because they are going to be combined with the set of another person to produce a new human being. That human being will again have two sets, one paternal (from the father) and one maternal (from the mother).

Your paternal and maternal chromosome 1 (for example) are called an homologous pair. The genes present on each will have the same general job, they will however not be exactly the same due to random mutations and genetic variety. Mutations can lead to the same genes working in slightly different ways. (eg coding for brown or blue eyes. They still both influence eye color.) Every human being has the genes that make him a human, but humans still aren’t exact copies of one another.

Different variations of the same gene are called alleles. You can either have the same alleles on both chromosomes, what is called homozygosity, or you can have two different alleles on each chromosome, which is called heterozygosity.

These variations in alleles for each gene is why people look the way they look. To find out why people sometimes resemble one parent more than the other, we have to look at how these different alleles can interact with one another.

2. Genotype vs Phenotype / dominant, recessive, co-dominate and intermediate inheritance

Genotype = your actual genetic code in its entirety

Phenotype = what traits (appearance, behavior, diseases, metabolism, etc) can be observed

Someone's phenotype doesn’t necessarily tell you what exact genes they carry. Here’s why:

2.1 Dominant vs recessive

In some cases one allele will be dominant and the other recessive. This means that the dominant trait will always be expressed when present, while the recessive one will be expressed only if no dominant allele is. If one dominant and one recessive allele is present, if you are heterozygous for that specific gene, the dominant one is expressed while the recessive one is only “carried”. You can still pass it to the next generation.

Two people could carry the allele for a recessive trait without even knowing it (due to it being silenced by the dominant one) and still have a 1/4 chance of producing a child with that recessive trait.

The children in this case did not inherit more genetic makeup from their father, they simply ended up expressing the dominant trait inherited from him and not the recessive one inherited from their mother. However, all children in this setup will end up carrying the recessive allele and can potentially pass it on to their children.

One of the few traits in human appearance that are inherited monogenic (only one gene is responsible for a specific trait) and dominant-recessive. Your type of hair-line would be one example.

If neither you, nor your wife have a widow’s peak, your children won’t have one either, since you are both homozygous for a recessive trait.

If one of them does have one ... it might be time to call Jerry Springer.

We believed for a long time that hair- and eye-color are also inherited like this (with darker colors being dominant and lighter ones being recessive) but we do now know that things are more complicated than this and that several genes (and epigenetic factors) are involved in deciding your hair color.

Generally speaking however, both darker eyes and darker hair tend to be dominant. It thus makes perfect sense that the child of these two people:

is most likely to take after his mother’s darker coloration.

Not because he inherited all his “hair and eye color genes” from her and none from his father, but because his mother's genes are more dominant and will thus be visible in his phenotype. He still carries some “blond” alleles from his father and could have blond children if whoever woman he has children with, also has “blond” alleles.

Ned figured out that Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are NOT Robert’s children with the exact same logic. Every time a black-haired Baratheon had children with a blonde woman, their children had black hair. Which is pretty consistent with real life. None of Robert’s children with Cersei following this trend was just too much of a coincidence.

This is the main reason why genetic diversity and avoiding inbreeding is so important. The more closely people are related, the more likely the are to carry the same recessive alleles for a specific condition, the more likely they are to have a child with a condition. As good as every person alive carries recessive alleles for one disease or another, but, not reproducing with people we are closely related to, makes it unlikely to meet up with a person who carries the exact same recessive alleles as you.

The coefficient of inbreeding tells you how likely it is that a person is homozygous for a specific allele by descent. It is actually impossible to accurately calculate for House Targaryen, because we do not know how many generations ago they started marrying their siblings. Even generous approximations (assuming the Aegon I was the first to incest) sets it way higher for Daenerys than for any known real human that has ever lived. But since we don’t care about Dany’s risk for recessive disorders, but only her relation to Jon, we are just going to ignore this. Only bringing it up because it is a thing.

2.2 Co-dominant alleles

Co-dominant alleles will both be expressed to the same amount, none of them is dominant enough to silence the other. They can however still be fully dominant against a third trait. The ABO system of blood types would be an example of this in human beings. The traits for blood type A and B are both dominant to O, but co-dominant to each other. This means that a couple where one has the blood type A and one has the blood type B have equal chances of producing a child with any of the four blood types if they are heterozygous and carry the allele for O as well.

A child ending up with blood type A ( A == phenotype, AO == genotype) didn’t inherit “more genes” from its mother because she shares the same blood type. It merely inherited a dominant trait from its mother and a recessive trait from its father.

2.3 Intermediate inheritance

The third most common way for alleles to interact is the intermediate one. Meaning that if two different alleles that code for two different traits are present, the phenotype will be a mix between the two. If a flower's color is inherited this way, a white and red flower will produce pink ones.

This is for example how human skin color is inherited. In reality, it is an immensely complex process that we don’t fully understand yet, but simplified: We have numerous genes that code for the production of melanin in our skin and certain mutations lead to a reduced production, leading to lighter skin.

Let’s assume we have only three genes A, B and C that all contribute the same amount to the color of our skin (in reality it’s much more and not all have the same influence, there are also epigenetic influences but we are trying to keep this simple here): An uppercase letter means that the gene will contribute to melanin-production, a lowercase letter is a mutation that will not. Three genes on two chromosomes makes six alleles in total. Having six ... let's call it “melanin-points” will lead to the darkest skin coloration possible while having zero means producing no melanin at all.

Even in this extremely simplified version we only have 7 phenotypes and 24 different genotypes showing once again that simply looking at someone doesn’t tell you all that much about what specific genes they are made of. Let’s look at a little example of what would happen if a dark-skinned man and light-skinned woman had a child:

Their child would have a 50% chance of its skin color being a perfect mix between the two and a 25% each, of being a bit more on the light or the dark side.

A child ending up inheriting 4/6 “melanin-points” would not be more closely related to its father and a child ending up with lighter skin would not be more closely related to its mother.

This is of course far more complex in real life but it can occasionally lead to mix-raced couples having children with vastly different skin tones. It’s the most obvious (and cute) when it happens to fraternal twins (twins that are only as related as normal siblings and don’t share 100% of their DNA).

These children are 50% mom and 50% dad, they are in no way more closely related to their black or white parent. The one with darker skin just happened to inherit more alleles coding for the production of melanin and statistical improbabilities can sometimes lead to extreme variations.

This also goes the other way around. I won’t write out all possible genotypes (it would be 64 in total) but here are the probabilities if both parents are medium-dark-skinned:

While highly unlikely, two people with medium-dark skin can have children with far darker or far lighter skin. Genetics can be weird like that.

Some alleles involved in hair- and eye-color also interact like this, instead of dominant/recessive.

So, now that we have that out of the way there is only one more thing we have to cover before moving on to the topic of how related you are to what relative. It gets a bit more complicated when it comes to siblings, cousins, aunts, uncles, etc but with your parents IT IS ALWAYS 50/50. ALWAYS.

3. Mitosis and Meiosis

Mitosis is the process of normal body cells duplicating themselves. One mother-cell produces two identical daughter-cells with the exact same DNA. We don’t need to get too into detail here, what’s important is that the initial two (!) sets of chromosomes are copied perfectly, leading to 4 sets of chromosomes being present temporarily and later the mother-cell dividing itself into two new cells who take two sets of chromosomes each with them. Creating two completely normal diploid cells.

Meiosis is the creation of four haploid germ cells out of one diploid cell. Four (4) because this process starts out the same way as mitosis: by duplicating the existing diploid chromosome set. Meiosis produces four haploid cells instead of two diploid ones is the one big difference. The other being the recombination of your homologous pairs of chromosomes. What happens is that some portion of the paternal chromosome will be swapped with the same portion of the maternal chromosome.

This is also called “crossing over” and just like sexual reproduction itself, it increases the genetic diversity of someone’s offspring. The newly created germ cell won’t simple receive one half of the maternal or paternal chromosome, but can potentially inherit a random combination of the two.

This is what the article you read talked about. In the example above Child 2 inherited far more DNA from it’s maternal grandmother than grandfather. This will however only influence how closely related the children are to their grandparents and to themselves. They still share 50% of their DNA with their mother and 50% with their father.

This will happen with all 23 chromosome pairs and will most likely average out to 50% shared DNA between siblings, 25% between grandparents/grandchildren, etc. Those number are of course only averages and there is indeed some range. If through pure coincidence child 2 consistently inherits a bit more from it’s maternal grandmother, it will indeed be more closely related to her than to its maternal grandfather. It still doesn’t change its degree of relationship to its mother or father. Which are, by the way, all things the author of that article mentions.

The less closely related two people are, and the more crossovers can occur, the bigger that range gets respectively and the more likely it is that their actual shared amount will deviate from the statistically expected one. With close relatives like aunt/nephew however, the expected amount of shared DNA is vastly bigger than 1,7% even when working with the lower limit of that range. Why that is, is what we’ll talk about next:

4. The 1,7% ... were based on outdated, flawed data

Some things about this chart ... just don’t look right.

The average cM for Aunt/Uncle is stated to be 1703, the range given is 121 - 2227. One should think that random processes like this would lead to a Gaussian normal distribution, but while the highest cM given is 524 points higher than average, the lowest is 1582 (!!!) lower. An almost three times bigger deviation. That doesn’t sound right.

Also, other relations of the same degree (with similar averages) have extremely different ranges:

Grandparents: Avg: 1760, 875 - 2365

Half-Sibling: Avg: 1731, 787 - 2134

The same is true for other relations of the same degree. Half-niece/Half-nephew having a lower range of 540, while first cousins only have 83 (!!!) , Great Aunt/Uncle having 236, Great-Grandparents having 547.

This all looks immensely inconsistent.

After doing some digging I found out that this chart was created by the “Shared cM Project” that introduces itself like so:

The Shared cM Project is a collaborative data collection and analysis project created to understand the ranges of shared centiMorgans associated with various known relationships. As of August 2017, total shared cM data for more than 25,000 known relationships has been provided. To add your data, the Submission Portal is HERE. I am always collecting data, and perhaps the next update with have 50,000 or 100,000 relationships!

Collecting genetic information by asking the public to only submit data about known relationships? Whatever could go wrong? When you have to rely on people knowing for certain whose sperm produced which child? Except for people not being quite as closely related to each other as they think they are .... Do I have to bring up Jerry Springer again?

I looked at their website a bit longer and could find this additional information about the chart above:

When compared to the minimums of the other Aunt/Uncle subgroups it is quite obvious that “121″ is a statistical outlier that shouldn’t have been included in the final publication.

I am afraid you fell victim to bad data.

Or maybe you willfully fell victim to it, since the person writing the article you love quoting did bring up the possibility of it being a fluke:

He probably should have been a bit more assertive about this being a runaway value (because it most obviously is) but still. I would have honestly been very shocked if a Stanford professor would be negligent enough to overlook this.

Looking at the newest published data from April 2018, it becomes even more apparently clear that the first one from 2015 simply didn’t have enough reliable data yet to show any conclusive results. (and they probably shouldn’t have included the absolute minimum and maximum but the 99 percentile as they did here)

Average cM and range for Aunt/Uncle from 2015: 1703, 121 - 2227. Average cM and range for Aunt/Uncle from 2018: 1750, 1349 - 2175.

That looks ... more reasonable. A lot more reasonable to be honest. Which would put the lowest possible amount of shared DNA between Aunt/Uncle and Niece/Nephew according to this data at ... 19,27%. Which also sounds a lot more reasonable than 1,7%.

Another thing to keep in mind when looking at these numbers is that DNA-tests are not necessarily 100% accurate. Whether your DNA is compared to somebody else’s by a private company like 23&Me or by law enforcement, they are not going to sequence your entire genetic information. The costs for sequencing an entire genome are still estimated to be around 1000$ and ain’t nobody got money for that. What they do instead is look at several distinct sections of your DNA and calculate your degree of relation depending on the matches in differences they find in those. The more sections they look at, they more accurate the results will be but depending on how much money you invest it will be somewhere between fairly and somewhat accurate.

The information put forward by this project will however get better and better the more data they collect and it’s pretty cool endeavor over all.

That still doesn’t tell us how closely Jon and Dany are actually related, since this chart does not consider the insane amount of inbreeding that went on in House Targaryen.

5. Targcest vs Nocest, the coefficient of relationship and how closely Jon and Dany are actually related

Jon and Dany might be aunt and nephew in name, but not in genes.

To start things out, let me show you how brother-sister incest influences the genes shared by their children by the hypothetical path of one chromosome pairs inheritance. I determined which parts of which chromosome would be passed on with a random number generator.

But where do the expected 12,5 and 75% come from? I didn’t just pull them out of my ass, so let me explain:

5.1 Calculating the coefficient of relationship

That percentage is also called the coefficient of relationship. It tells you what percentage of DNA two people are expected to share by common ancestry. The easiest way to calculate it is through drawing a family tree and simply counting lines. The more generations that family tree includes, showing also any degree of inbreeding in the past, the more accurate the calculation is. Using the last three or four will however be sufficiently accurate in most cases.

This is your average family tree without any inbreeding:

To find out how much DNA the siblings John and Jane Doe have in common, you look at all common ancestors through which they are related, ie through which you can draw paths from one to the other without passing through the same ancestor twice. In this case, this is only true for their parents. Let’s simplify their family tree down to that relationship.

I have included their grandparents to highlight why they can’t be used in the same way. If you were to connect John and Jane through one of them you would always have to go back through either their father and mother and passing through the same person twice isn’t allowed.

There is one unique path through which they are connected through their first common ancestor: Their father.

Now, what does the number of line segments tell us? As stated above Jane Doe and Joe Doe are each going to inherit 1/2 of their fathers DNA. Put differently, each part of Papa Doe’s DNA has an equal chance to be inherited or not.

It’s like flipping coins, there is a 1/2 chance to get heads and a 1/2 chance to get tails and if you flip a coin several times it will show heads 1/2 of the time and tails 1/2 of the time. This essay has already gotten way out of hand already and I don’t want go into the basics of probability calculation as well but I promised to explain all this in excruciating detail so I guess I have no choice.

You have 1000 thousand coins, flip them and lay them out in a row. ~500 of them will show head, ~500 of them show tails. Heads symbolizes the half of dad’s DNA that is passed on to the firstborn child, tails is the half that isn’t. This symbolizes the 50% of Joe Doe’s DNA that John inherited, symbolized by line 1 in the graphic above.

You do the same thing once again for the second child and lay out the row next to that of it’s older sibling. That’s the 50% Jane inherited from her father, that’s line 2 in the chart.

To find out how much DNA inherited from their father it has in common with its older sibling, you look at all their coins that show heads and count how often their siblings coin next to it also shows heads.

Since you are again looking at a sample of randomly flipped coins, about 1/2 of them will show heads and half of them won’t. That means 1/4 (one half of one half or 1/2 x 1/2) of the coin pairs will both show heads, meaning that 1/4 of their DNA is identical through inheriting the same genes from their father.

One (1) line segment simply stands for a probability of 1/2, and since 2^-1 is just another way of writing 1/2 we will use this notation. (2^-2 being equal to 1/2, 2^-2 to 1/4, 2^-3 to 1/8, 2^-4 to 1/16 and so on and so forth.)

The amount of identical DNA two people inherited from a common ancestor is 2^-[amount of line segments].

In this case it’s two lines, so 2^-2 = 1/4 = 0,25 = 25%.

We do the same thing for their second common ancestor, their mother, and also get 2^-2. By adding this two together we get our final answer:

2^-2 + 2^-2 = 0,25 + 0,25 = 0,5 = 50%

They inherited the same 25% from their father and the same 25% from their mother, making 50% in total.

If you want to calculate the amount of DNA shared between someone and their direct ancestor (mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, great-great-grandmother, etc) you simply count the lines directly connecting the two. 2^-1 or 50% for parents and child, 2^-2 for grandparents and grandchildren and so on.

Next are first cousins. John Doe and Jane Doe each got married and had a child with their perspective partner (that have no relevant, close common ancestry with each other or with the Doe family)

They can be connected through two common ancestors: Grandpa and Grandma Doe. They can both be connected through either of them with one unique path:

If we count the lines and enter the number into our little formula, their coefficient of relationship is 2^-4 + 2^-4 = 0,125 or 12,5%.

You can also see in this charts how closely related Daughter Doe is to her Aunt Jane Doe: You simply ignore the fourth line that would connect her to her cousin and get 2^-3 + 2^-3 = 0,25 or 25%.

Before jumping into the clusterfuck that is the Targaryen family tree here are two examples that are a bit more convoluted but that can still happen in real life, with no incest involved.

Sibling-cousins or 3/4 siblings if two brothers have two children with the same woman (or vice versa)

In this case, John Doe, the Second and Jake Doe, the Second, have three relevant ancestors in common: Their grandparents and their mother.

They are connected through their mother with two lines, so we can start our calculation with 2^-2

and through their grandparents with one unique line each with a length of four, which makes: 2^-2 + 2^-4 + 2^4 = 0,375 = 37,5%. Another way of coming to that number is by thinking about them being both half-siblings (25%) and cousins (12,5%) and adding those percentages together 37,5%. You could make the joke that their fathers are also their uncles. Just without any incest involved.

The last special case I want to talk about before moving on the Targaryen family tree, are double cousins. When two siblings marry two siblings.

Son Mustermann and Daughter Joe have four grandparents in common, whereas “ordinary” cousins will only share two. You can again look at all the unique paths through which they are connected through those four to get their shared DNA:

Through Grandma Doe: 2^-4

plus Grandpa Doe makes: 2^-4 + 2^-4

plus Oma Mustermann makes: 2^-4 + 2^-4 + 2^-4

plus Opa Mustermann makes: 2^-4 + 2^-4 + 2^-4 + 2^-4 = 0,25 or 25%. They are quite literally “double”cousins. We have already doubled the amount of shared DNA between the children of two siblings and we haven’t even thrown incest into the mix! Which we shall do now.

5.2 How closely Daenerys and Jon are actually related

The last known common ancestors of Daenerys and Rhaegar who were not related to each other were their Great-Grandparents, Aegon V and his wife Betha Blackwood. Adding earlier ancestors wouldn’t make any sense since their paths would need to lead through Aegon twice (which we don’t do). Here is the relevant part of the Targaryen family ladder in all it’s incestuous glory:

As you can already see, there are tons of unique ways through which Dany and Jon are connected through common ancestors. In order to make this a bit simpler, I will work my way down from top to bottom.

How close are Aegon and Betha related? 0%. No known common ancestry.

How close are Jaehaerys and Shaera related? 50% Same as every other brother and sister. You can just look at the example shown above.

However, how close Aerys and Rhaella are related is an entirely different matter. We can draw paths through both their parents and grandparents without going through the same ancestors twice.

Their coefficient or relationship through their mother and father remains unchanged: 2^-2 + 2^-2 = 0,50. Things are a bit more complicated when it comes to their grandparents though:

Aerys and Rhaella are connected through Aegon through two (2) distinct paths with 4 segments each: 2^-4 + 2^-4

and through Betha through two distinct lines with 4 segments each: 2^-4 + 2^-4.

You may notice that this is the exact same configuration of lines as the double-cousins example above. The only difference is that their four shared grandparents are condensed into only two people. And indeed, Aerys and Rhaella are both full-siblings and double-cousins. Aerys’ mother is also his aunt and his father is also his uncle and the same is true for Rhaella.

By adding the expected amount of common DNA inherited from each ancestor together, we get:

2^-2 + 2^-2 + 2^-4 + 2^-4 + 2^-4 + 2^-4 = 0,75 = 75%.

And Rhaegar and Dany? They are related through their parents with 50%, to their grandparents with 25% (same as Aerys and Rhaella) and also through their great-grandparents through ...

4 times 2^-6 through Betha and ...

4 times 2^-6 through Aegon which ...

makes 4 x 2^-6 + 4 x 2^-6 = 0,125 or 12,5% common DNA through their Great-Grandparents which ....

makes 50 + 25 + 12,5 = 87,5% in total.

I will even do you the favor and calculate their 99 percentile range according to the latest data of the shared cM project!

They are full siblings: ave % = 50, range = 42 - 64%

They are first cousins two times over: ave % = 25, range = 16 - 35%

They are second cousins four times over: ave % = 12,5%, range = 2,5% - 27,6%

Making their (very unlikely) minimum amount of shared DNA: 60,5% and their (equally unlikely) maximum amount of common DNA: .. 126,6%. Let’s just say 100% because more than that is ... literally impossible.

If we now want to calculate the coefficient of relationship between Jon and Daenerys we can either do that whole thing again, adding one line-segment that connects Jon to Rhaegar, or we can just take the easy route and take Dany and Rhaegar’s coefficient and divide it by two (since Jon got half is DNA from Lyanna and half is DNA from Rhaegar and he will inherit the parts shared with Dany and the ones who are not proportionally).

Which means ... Dany and Jon are at least (!) 30,25% related (if you want to be intellectually dishonest and assume that they always only inherited the least amount possible from each common ancestor they share), most likely 43,75% related, with a potential maximum amount of 50%.

Not 1,7% or 25%, but ~30% or ~44%. Or maybe even 50%.

And I haven’t even considered their shared ancestry through their Blackwood great-grandmothers but since we don’t know how those two were related to each other and it’s only going to matter to ~1% I just won’t bother with it.

Whether Jon looks more like Ned or Daenerys doesn’t matter. He “only” shares about 25% of his DNA with Ned and about 44% with Daenerys and that is a fact. While big differences in shared genes might make a bit of a difference in which grandmother you resemble more, that effect is going to be dwarfed by the interplay of dominant and recessive alleles. He only shares about 12,5% of his DNA with Arya (okay, maybe a tad more because of the intermarriages in house stark, but I really don’t feel like going through all the trouble to calculate that as well. It’s not going to be as severe as the incest of House Targaryen) and they still look super alike because they both inherited the same dominant genes.

After reading all 5201 words of this, you will hopefully never, ever, ever again write or even think that a) Jon got more genes from his mother and that b) he and Dany might only share as little 1,7% of their DNA.

Thanks for coming to my TED Talk, isn’t genetics a fascinating topic?

#Jon Snow #Daenerys Targaryen #House Targaryen

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stardyng · 6 years ago

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You know, I think if this was the other way around, if Arya was the only girl in her family who liked doing more "masculine" centered stuff and she was surrounded by girl siblings who put down her interests and preferred sewing and dancing, the asoiaf fandom would be team arya, and want her to escape to King's Landing, where they have girls who fight and swordplay and do all these things she enjoys. (pt 1)

(pt.2) if it was Sansa as the younger sibling, who Arya put her hopes into having a sister who finally could enjoy what she did…only to have her think boy stuff is dumb and following her older, girly sisters, Arya’s disappointment about her unsatisfactory sister would be justified, and not a betrayal of sisterhood. But because it’s SANSA who prefers FEMININE centered stuff, and is surrounded by boy siblings who put her down for these interests, it’s fine.

(pt3) because its a younger girl sibling who also puts down these interests and prefers boyish things, that’s alright and Sansa is a bad sister and selfish for wanting to escape to a place that would appreciate and enjoy the things she enjoys. Sansa is wrong for wanting to stay there, but guarantee if it was Arya who was enjoying being able to fight and ride and be herself to the fullest and feel like she belongs, only to be told she has to go back to winterfell to marry and give it all up…

(pt4) they’d be on her side when she tries to stay. But because it’s Sansa who wants to stay with her girly wants, it’s stupid and she’s stupid too.

(pt5) GRRM flipped the trope on its head. Now its the girly-girl feeling left out instead of the tomboy. Now its the girl who likes feminine stuff who feels lonely and wants to escape to a place where she feels she really can be herself, and its the tomboy who fits in with her siblings. Even has a father who lets her get away with it, rather than reprimand her. Funnily enough, the fandom hates Sansa for it, but would undoubtedly love Arya if she were in Sansa’s shoes.

You are definitely right. People have always prioritized and put more effort into understanding any motivation that is intricately linked with traditional masculinity than they are with any kind of motivation linked with traditional femininity. There have been so many stories with that same general premise, and none of the characters of these stories have been degraded for wanting to escape their childhood home in order to have adventures or build a career. For example, barely anyone puts any attention to the fact that Arya wanted to stay in King’s Landing as well in order to continue her fighting lessons. The only reason she was fine with leaving is because Ned made a compromise with her about it. On the other hand, Sansa is criticized that heavily about wanting to stay in King’s Landing not simply because she wants to escape what she sees as a boring home where nothing happens, but for doing so while having motivations that are more linked with things most viewers view as being superfluous and shallow because they are female-coded.

It’s also interesting to see how much the fact that Sansa has felt lonely through out her childhood and the fact that she never had a sibling that she can relate to, have both being swept aside so casually by the fandom. Either she’s portrayed as the really popular girl who made every other girl in Winterfell bully Arya or as this brat who was never really grateful of what she had in the North. She’s asked to be fine with what she has because the readers/watchers don’t attribute any kind of value to what she wants. That being said, all the other Stark children have a sibling that they can relate to on a deeper level or at the very least. The same cannot be said with Sansa who not only have siblings that look down on many of the things she likes and does, but a father who won’t even dedicate time to build a proper relationship with her (who ends up practically neglecting her later on in the story). In this fandom, there have been quite a few people who voiced their sympathy for Arya because Catelyn apparently did not really love her despite there been no proof whatsoever of that in the actual story, but people won’t sympathize with Sansa despite how isolated she is in her own family.

There’s also the whole concept in the story itself that everything that have to do with the North and Winterfell is superior, and everything having to do with the South is inferior. The Northern Gods are obviously superior, and if a character (especially a Northern one) doesn’t believe in them, then that means that they are worth less for it. The Northerners don’t really care for tourneys so every character who does have some interest in them are lesser for it. Essentially, the morals, values, general appearance and beliefs that are linked with the North are portrayed as superior to these of other Houses, and the fact that a character like Sansa initially rejects these things also make people unreasonably criticize her. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with her preferring many of the things that come from the South.

All in all, I agree with all you stated in this ask. There is a clear double standard that exists in this fandom as well as this reluctance to understand anything remotely linked with traditional femininity. Arya will get more sympathy for theories about her time in Winterfell that are based on nothing in the actual story than Sansa gets for feeling alone in her own family and home when the canon story proves that this is an actual thing. Sansa gets vilified for wanting to go to King’s Landing for the tourneys, the songs, and for a possible good engagement than Bran ever got for wanting to go to King’s Landing as well in order to become a knight. Sansa gets criticism for not completely embodying the Northern ideal and she could breathe the wrong way and people would call her disloyal to her family but Robb can choose to not exchange Jaime for his sisters and that’s perfectly understandable and the best thing to do. People will put the least amount of effort possible to understand Sansa’s character, and it shows.

#sansa stark #sansa #asoiaf #a song of ice and fire #anti asoiaf fandom #anti grrm #a little bit #for the whole northern superiority thing #100 #asks

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wiseabsol · 6 years ago

Text

WA Reviews “Dominion” by Aurelia le, Chapter 6: Timing

Link: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/6383825/6/Dominion

Summary: For the Fire Nation royal siblings, love has always warred with hate. But neither the outward accomplishment of peace nor Azula’s defeat have brought the respite Zuko expected. Will his sister’s plans answer this, or only destroy them both?

Content Warnings: This story contains discussions and depictions of child abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, sexual abuse, and incest. This story also explores the idea that Zuko’s redemption arc (and his unlearning of abuse) is not as complete as the show suggested, and that Azula is not a sociopath (with the story having a lot of sympathy for her). If that doesn’t sound like your cup of tea, I would strongly recommend steering clear of this story and my reviews of it.

Note: Because these were originally posted as chapter reviews/commentaries, I will often be talking to the author in them (though sometimes I will also snarkily address the characters). While I’ve also tried not to spoil later events in the story in these reviews, I would strongly recommend reading through chapter 25 before reading these, just to be safe.

Now on to chapter 6!

CHAPTER 6: TIMING

Alright, let’s see if I can review chapter six before the day is out. I’ve got five hours. I can totally do this! So Zuko, Mai, and Lu Ten are vacationing on Ember Island, which is also where the asylum is. This is already not a great combination. I think it’s pretty funny that Mai’s palanquin has more black on it than the other two, although that defeats the purpose of it being ambiguous who is in which palanquin if someone chooses to attack their procession. Yes, they are less likely to all be wiped out in a single strike this way, but someone could still target any one of them and still achieve a devastating amount of damage. Mai is heavily implied later to have fertility issues, so taking out Lu Ten might mean there would be no heir to inherit later. Mai is the spymaster, so taking her out would cripple Zuko’s administration. And taking out Zuko would throw the precarious peace the Fire Nation now has with the rest of the world into the refuse bin. So the consequences would be nasty any way that that attack could go. Related to this, the royal family being this small means it’s very vulnerable. Sure, there’s Iroh to fall back on in case something happens to Zuko, Mai, and Lu Ten, but Iroh no longer has his own heir. He could potentially legitimize one of his bastards to solve that problem, but he doesn’t know any of them like he knew Lu Ten. Ozai and Azula are non-options as well, as far as most of the world is concerned. And there are no uncles, aunts, cousins, or other blood relations for the throne to pass to outside of these people. If another noble family wanted to overthrow the royal family, they wouldn’t have to go through that many people to get what they wanted. Sure, the people they would have to get through are powerful, but they could feasibly accomplish it if there was, say, a rebellion of the magnitude of Robert’s Rebellion against Targaryens in ASOIAF. It could be done if they had the right candidate to rally around. But back to the chapter. There’s an interesting political undercurrent going on where Ember Island is concerned, and Zuko’s initiative in dealing with it pleasantly surprised me. Mai deciding to use this opportunity to take a vacation and look for more “knives and stilettos” for her collection made me chuckle, and the mention of Sokka’s space sword was great. I’m imagining Mai presenting it to Sokka with just a hint of smugness now. Gosh, Zuko and Mai are cute before shit hits the fan in chapter seven. Him holding up a parasol for her and her exasperation about him “roughing it up in exile” made me smile. Also, Lu Ten is cute with his “white gold” eyes. I do have some doubts about him being a firebender, though. For one, it seems like him not being one would throw a serious wrench into Zuko and Mai’s dynastic plans, which could be interesting to explore in “Thrones.” Second, given that Mai isn’t a bender and Ursa wasn’t one either, there’s around a 50/50 shot that Lu Ten isn’t. So it’s both a reasonable possibility genetically and intriguing plot-wise, so I’m leaning towards him not being one at present. I also have a theory that a certain other child will be legitimized by Zuko later on, adding another wrench into the already complicated works. But I’ll get to that in later chapters. “‘Love you, bye’ [ . . . ] Was that really how Lu Ten would remember his father? As someone who was always leaving about some official business?”—This is actually really sad, because I imagine that while Zuko worried about whether he would be a good father or not, he does genuinely love his son and want to have a connection with him. “Once he convinced his people that an honorable peace was worth sacrificing a century of ill-gotten gains.”—Very nice symmetry in this line here. “He still wanted more.”—I have an AMV you should watch in regards to that, Zuko: (slash)watch?vS6fNJ79evn8. Also, that song is very appropriate for the conflict in “Dominion” in general. “He didn’t look forward to the prospect of wearing so much clothing in this heat, but if that succeeded in getting his opponents to take him more seriously, he supposed it was worth the imposition.”—Or you could strip to get your opponents to take you seriously. Oh wait. “Mai could almost understand why Lu Ten never tired of playing with [Zuko’s crown]. Beyond the fact that Zuko didn’t often allow him to.”—This makes me remember how Azula allows a certain child to play with her crown later, so this is a nice bit of (probably) unintended contrast. “/Wake the baby, and you die/”—Lol, Mai. Okay, so basically none of the loyalists want to meet up with Zuko to discuss how the Fire Nation should be run. And while he and Mai are discussing it, she says, “Not everyone’s as honest as you” and I want to laugh myself sick. Mai goes over some of the reasons why the loyalists are refusing to meet with him, then volunteers to help him with the negotiations. We also get this cute line, “She had thought there must be something wrong with him, when Zuko told her [her grimace] was her most endearing mannerism.” They have such a wholesome relationship here. It would be such a shame if something happened to it. “‘I know,’ Mai sighed dramatically, ‘sometimes I doubt my own judgement’”—I’m both laughing at that and pitying her, given later events. Okay, so Zuko expresses that he sometimes feels as if Azula wouldn’t have these kinds of problems ruling like he does. Technically, he’s right—the loyalists would much rather have Azula as their ruler than Zuko (if they couldn’t have Ozai, that is). But rather than continuing to reassure Zuko, Mai shuts this conversation down with snide remarks about the other problems Azula would have, namely being crazy. Which is unfair to both Zuko and Azula, even though I get why mentioning Azula set Mai off like that. In response, Zuko asks her, “‘Will you honestly pretend you never had /any/ regard for her at all? [ . . . ] That you /hated/ every minute of it?’” After which Mai actually admits that she was fond of Azula—the line “‘And she actually had a sense of humor.’ /Unlike someone else I could mention/” was especially painful to me. It seems like progress coming from her, but then: “That now that she consented to share her feelings, they could cry together over Azula’s sad, sad fate. Or some similar nonsense. Agni, he was worse than Ty Lee sometimes.”—The expectation the readers were building to is averted. “‘She crossed a line, when she left you to die. And subsequent events showed her for what she really was. [ . . . ] Something barely human, let alone deserving of respect.”—I maintain that Mai is wrong about Azula’s capacity to kill Zuko. First, let’s look at what happened when Azula “tried to kill” Zuko. When the ropes for the cable car were being cut in the Boiling Rock, Ty Lee, interestingly, did not express any concern about that. That would be strange if Zuko’s life was in danger, since we know she cares for Zuko as a friend. As such, while I don’t know exactly what would have happened if the cable car had hit the boiling lake, it seems as if there’s a possibility that it would have floated instead of sinking. Instead of everyone inside of it being killed, they would have been left stranded on the lake, where they could have been retrieved and taken into custody. Or it could have killed them, but again, I can’t see Ty Lee being okay with that, given her defense of Mai in that same episode. Then there was the attack on the Western Air Temple, during which Zuko seemingly falls to his death twice. The first time this happens, he lands on another Fire Nation airship—which Azula had to know was there. The second time it happens, Azula is falling along with him, until she manages to save herself. Now the question is, would she have managed to find a way to save him as well? Would she have grabbed him as she launched herself towards the cliff? Ultimately, we don’t know the answer to this, because the Gaang caught Zuko before she got her bearings back. She didn’t have to save him, so we will never know if she would have chosen to do so. As such, it’s ambiguous how serious her attempts to murder him were. It’s possible that despite her claims and her father’s orders, she might have been trying to capture Zuko instead. We can’t know for sure one way or the other. Zuko, on the other hand, would have let Azula fall to her death. No matter how any readers might feel about his characterization in “Dominion,” they can’t deny that that was something that he did in canon—and given the emphasis on being merciful to one’s enemies in ATLA, that was a decidedly unheroic thing for him to do, especially after he had been “redeemed.” Anyway, back to the chapter. Zuko thinks he should go visit Azula, since they’re on Ember Island. Not because he wants to, but because he thinks he should. “letting the fabric fall from his hands and onto their bed like a sinuous river of blood”—Great description to convey the tone of the moment. “‘You don’t owe her anything [ . . . ] And the sooner you realize that, the better off we’ll /all/ be.”—Mai’s not wrong, but we know Zuko doesn’t feel the same way. “‘You don’t know what it’s like [ . . . ] to have someone you whole life, and then they’re just gone.”—Ouch. Ouch ouch ouch. But has it occurred to Zuko that Azula probably felt the same way when he was exiled? I’m sure it hasn’t. "Mai considered in that moment just going with him, but dismissed it almost as quickly. She had never been to see Azula, and there was no telling how the mad princess would react to her, whatever improvements Ty Lee claimed in her mental state."—Honestly, Mai? Maybe you should have gone with him. I think it's clear that you're still hurting over what happened at the Boiling Rock, even if you deny it and claim that your denial is closure. Talking with her might have helped you, and it might have helped Zuko too. In addition, I suspect that the events of this story would have gone down a dramatically different path if you had been with Zuko during chapter seven. But you chose to stay with Lu Ten, which is, admittedly, a reasonable choice to make, especially given your justifications for it (namely, that if Azula got the upper hand in a fight, she could use you against Zuko). But it also meant that you missed an opportunity to head off some of this story's conflict before it began. So Zuko goes to visit Azula, while Mai practices with her knives. The "but [she] like to think it was something more, that maybe he inherited not just her eyes and thick black hair, but her enduring love of pointy things" is super cute and makes me want him to be a nonbender even more. After a while, though, Mai gets the news that Azula has escaped. Yes! Except she's not as enthused about the prospect as I am. "'Answer your Fire Lady!' Mai said stridently, taking a quick step closer to compel him and eliciting a frightened squeak from Lu Ten, who was unused to hearing his mother express herself so loudly."—Nice characterization here. "Another /cursed/ letter"—Ah, so does this mean Mai is fully aware of Azula's letters and Zuko's fixation on them? "'Dada?' he chirped hopefully up at her, with that same uncertain smile she had seen on Zuko's face too many times to count."—Awww! "while Mai removed the flame headpieces and pin from her hair, letting it fall freely down her back"—Have we ever seen Mai with her hair down? I don't think we have. I'm curious about how that looks. "And Mai reflected on the fitness of the metaphor"—While I reflect on the cleverness of the writing.

We move on to Zuko who, like us, is skeptical that the breakout at the asylum had nothing to do with Azula. Also, "cold therapy" sounds like the Fire Nation's equivalent of electroshock therapy. Apparently, it "helps" mental ill firebenders, which both Zuko and I think is nonsense. In any case, Azula got thrown into a cooler at one point, with Iroh's consent. Apparently it did not go well, because Azula flashed back to being frozen by Katara in the finale, even assuming the position she was in then, with her hands behind her back. Eventually, though, she acclimated to the cells. "'We think her fire simply burns too hot. As you are aware, she is the first bender in several generations to wield blue flames, and the first ever recorded in the royal family.'"—This is so cool. I wonder what the stories of the other blue flame benders are? "'You're used to blaming her when things go wrong, aren't you? [ . . . ] It gives you a measure of comfort."—Dr. Kwan's got your measure, Zuko. Oooohhh, so Zuko wanted Azula to be guarded by eight imperial firebenders at all times. It's no wonder she needed to set up an escape for some of the other patients in the asylum—how else to pull the guards away from her? Also, the "No joke" comment made me laugh. "Didn't these people know what she /was/?"—Stop saying "what" instead of "who" Lord Weirdo. It's contributing to your dehumanization of Azula. "This one opened outward, to prevent Azula from hiding behind it when anyone entered her cell."—That is surprisingly savvy of them to have designed the door that way. "'Her hair is /brown/! /Dark/ brown, like my /mother's/!"—Ugh from the future. "'And she's /shorter,/ that isn't /her/!"—So is it canon that Azula has a short stature, or is that more of your preference, Aurelia? Because as a short woman, I don't mind, but I also don't know the answer to that question, XD. Zuko briefly panics, thinking that Azula is pretending to be one of the imperial firebenders, which is a nice nod to her pretending to be a Kyoshi Warrior in canon. But of course Azula didn't stick around like that. "But it still hurt"—The way this is led into makes me think that this is meant to be read as, "But it still hurt that she'd betrayed him," even though this isn't a betrayal, because it's not about him at all. This is also a nice echo to Azula's speech on the beach. "The guard smiled shyly, odd as that was to see in a man at least five years his senior, 'It'd be hard to forget….'"—Is it weird that I find that cute? Because I do. Azula's plan is brilliant, which of course it would be. Though Zuko thinks, "This just proved how little they knew her. Azula didn't identify with anyone, Zuko recalled. She was just good at pretending." Which is not true. Azula is capable of empathy; she just doesn't express it in obvious ways. Being raised by a sociopath who equated warm emotions with weakness no doubt influenced her in that respect. "The one part that did /not/ make an awful sort of sense to him, was how she had subdued a guard and left the cell under her own power. Kwan and the guards both confirmed that she had been sedated, and the effect should have lasted several more hours."—This primes us to both the fact that Azula has been building up an immunity to the sedatives they're been giving her, but also that she might still be effected by the drugs when we see her. This is important in light of what happens in the next chapter. Zuko's means of trying to find Azula are actually very well thought out. Then he remembers that it's Azula's birthday, which makes him remember his conversation with Ty Lee, which makes him remember when he was last on the beach with Ty Lee, Mai, and Azula. This leads him to the realization that Azula has gone to the royal family's abandoned summer home. "He knew how much she hated it there."—Is there a specific reason for that, or is it just that it reminds her of her mother and thus is poisoned by her resentment towards Ursa? "His footfalls sounded despite the dust, the faded wood floors unaccustomed to his weight, and a sudden idea struck him. Zuko removed his boots and left them sitting beside the doors"—Well that is one way to make sure you don't have to worry about the logistics of him removing them in a certain scene in the next chapter. "Not a /single/ pair of /pants/ in her entire wardrobe?' Azula grumbled to herself. 'Why am I not sur—'"—I may have laughed really hard at this, because of course Ursa wouldn't have owned any pants! That would have been so unladylike of her! Though it is also very concerning that Azula decided to look through her mother's clothes for something first. I get the rationale behind her decision, but it's also unsettling once you know she uses the same makeup as her mother too. "He did not remember deciding to look inside. That fact alone was troubling."—Brace yourself, Zuko, it's about to get 1000x more troubling. "And he had never been one to hide pointlessly. Or to run from a fight."—Pssht, who thinks that way about themselves and expects us to take them seriously? "'You came back.'"—Oh Azula, honey. I wish he had come back for you, but he came back for the idea of you more than anything else. And that cliffhanger is where you chose to end the chapter. I'm very fortunate that I started reading this when there was—gosh, I want to say sixteen chapters up already? I distinctly remember getting the notification in my inbox when "A Kindness" came out. So I didn't have to wait for chapter seven like some readers did, which I imagine would have killed me. I know waiting for "Line of Fire" almost did, and that was for Ursa rather than Azula. Though to be fair, Ursa is a fascinating character, so she was worth the wait. In any case, I'm looking forward to tackling chapter seven and heading into the meat of this story, but I might need a few days to prepare myself for it. As always, thank you for the read! Sincerely, WiseAbsol

#WiseAbsol #Azula #avatar: the last airbender #Dominion by Aurelia le #Fanfiction #Review

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