#John Winchester

[seasononesam]

All right, something like this starts happening to your brother, you pick up the phone and you call me. Call you? Are you kidding me? 

[boykingscourt]

pspspspspsps good sam whump fics?? good sam whump hunt gone wrong fics???? good sam whump hunt gone wrong fics with dean AND john ?????

[naturalsuper]

samjohn < 3

[noybusiness]

I totally agree. I liked it even more than the parent show. Those who haven't seen it are really missing out.

"Respectfully to Kripke and everybody else, [John being a veteran] kind of gets a little brushed over, I think, in Supernatural and like . . . how does war haunt you? How does that change you, you know? . . . How did that change John? Like, when we see John in Supernatural, he's just kind of this like, geeky good kid, you know, in the flashbacks, and it's like, he just came back from 'Nam, like he's not... he can't be that put together." -Rachel Lynett

[bullet-prooflove]

Three things prompt game:

John Winchester: leather, thunder, guitar

Tagging: @kmc1989 @thecolourshadesofpinnata @hit-meup69 @jimmynovakreal @niamaejones 

Companion piece to:

Did You Miss Me? (NSFW) - John shows you just how much he's missed you.

You wake up to the sound of music, to the dulcet tones of the acoustic guitar one of the band members keeps on the stage of the bar where you work, the stage you’re currently waking up on after a night of debauchery.

You sit up, clasping the leather jacket John had draped over your sleeping form, to your body to cover your nakedness. Outside there’s a roll of thunder, the beginning of one of the worst storms of the decade you’d had heard on the radio.

“Hey.” John murmurs, his voice husky as he plays the opening bars to Johnny Cash’s Solitary Man. He’s perched on one of the bar stools, his jeans slung low on his hips, his chest bare. You drink him in, the scars, the tattoos, the bruising that’s starting to blossom across his ribs from his most recent hunt. The one he didn’t tell you about, the one you didn’t ask about.

“You’re still here.” You say surprised because John, he always disappears after he’s finished with you. He’s the very definition of fucking and running.

“Yea.” He sighs, his gaze meeting yours as his fingertips continue to strum across the strings. “I guess I’m not ready to leave just yet.”

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Like My Work? - Why Not Buy Me A Coffee

[filmesbrazil]

[flying-ham]

absolutely fucking horrified at John leaving the bed open on his empty nester truck?????? what is wrong with him??????

[noybusiness]

Yeah, I've never read John as homophobic. I'm also pretty sure Winchesters John is very much aware Carlos is bi and that when Carlos flirted with him, he knew that was what they were doing. He even seemed appreciative of Carlos in uniform.

Oh, I grew up in the 90s too, and being out at my school would have been social death. And this was a blue state. "Gay" was used as a synonym for "uncool" all the time; it's funny that I've rarely seen that depicted on TV, actually. The only example I can think of is in Doctor Who when Rose calls the Doctor "gay" after he makes a fuss about being slapped by her mom.

Hello! I recently watched The Winchesters and had a question, which I figured you could answer/discuss?

I'm aware that the show takes place in an Alt Universe, and that Spn's John never fell into the hunting life earlier, so he never knew Carlos personally. But still, it's still him — and he is not homophobic towards Carlos who is canonically bi. It can be argued that he just does not know, like he did not know about Carlos serving the Navy, but then what about Anton? We know Lata knows, of course. But has it been explicitly stated that Mary & John know too? And it's not like Carlos hides himself; he's open about his interests and that's amazing, but John is never portrayed as a Hater, no? Not in this sense in the show.

But we, as a fandom, have concluded that John is the reason for Dean's suppression of his own feelings — in general, and about being into men — but then... Carlos.

Did Dean assume his father would never approve? Because he never does of anything that has to do with feelings; it's always hunting and more hunting and revenge, of course. Is that what happened, rather than John actually being homophobic, he was a colossal failure of a parent who "just" pushed away his son(s) emotionally to a level where potential abuse and discouragement were more realistic than anything else? Does this also mean that when Dean does come out to John he would be supportive, at least, of this?

It's just been bugging me, is all.

Hoo boy. Throwing me an easy one before coffee, huh? :)

As a fun aside, there is a scene where a Carlos is mentioned in the mothership. It's not established to be the same Carlos in SPNwin, but the SPN episode was written by Robbie and he has acknowledged they are in his mind.

That doesn't get us to an answer, but it's nice to know that Dean and Sam possibly knew a version of Carlos.

Leading with the short answer to the actual question: what you have described regarding canon is a lot of assumptions and headcanons, which are fine and can absolutely be read as "John was just different in the different universes,' but I personally find that to be the boring answer. I think this fandom tends to write John as the evil bad dad, when a complex gray John is far meatier, so I'm often inclined to go deeper.

The answer I feel works better is the possibly unpopular opinion that we don't actually know John is homophobic at all and it's very possible Dean’s relationship with his father, while fraught with expectations in any number of ways, may not actually be driving his choice to live in the closet and/or his delayed realization of his sexual orientation. It's extremely possible John isn't homophobic at all. Dean may have read him that way or he may have felt pressure from external sources. These days my preferred reading tends to actually be something else entirely: that Dean knows he is queer and simply doesn't reveal it because he is of an era and a world where queerness is often not open and obvious to outsiders.

This is gonna be a long haul so I'm gonna pop in a courtesy cut and jump in. Don't worry. There WILL be headings and bullet points. Regret asking me yet? 😆

Is John homophobic?

Canon support

There isn't a ton of canon support for the homophobic John reading. That's not saying it isn't a valid reading. It's just that it's an interpretation and not fact. Here are the things I have seen or remember:

Martin and Tara - taking these together because they are a similar pattern. Both tell Dean his dad would be disappointed in him for running around with this male shaped monster (boyfriend). The textual reading is that John wouldn't want him running around with monsters. There is a subtexual reading that John wouldn't want him to have a boyfriend which is super valid. It just doesn't tell us much about John because 1. We know he was very black and white on monsters, 2. neither of these characters knows John that well. Tara got ghosted by him. It's possible this is a reflection of the larger hunter community (though possibly not even that). The point is it's canon evidence that can be taken either way.

Lee? A lot of people write that scene as John finding in them in a compromising position and I get it because Christian Kane and Jensen Ackles looked like they were about to sneak off to the bathroom, but the actual story is "You remember that time he caught us wasted on a Hunt? Hm? He was so mad, I-I thought he was gonna have an aneurysm." We know that John is really hard on Dean and Sam specifically because he chooses preparation for monsters over all (including their mental health) so this is absolutely consistent with his character regardless of any romance between them.

The nuns - this is not technically canon, but there is a story about John sending Dean on a solo hunt on his birthday to chase after queer nuns. First and foremost, I am noting this is sketchy from a canon/non-canon evidence perspective. It is something written and endorsed by SPN in the same way as the cartoon and the upcoming graphic novel. It's not fan fiction, but I would say it's not truly canon canon. But taking the evidence for what it is, it's interesting to note that in the journal John doesn't actually say anything homophobic. He describes the hunt as "Simple salt-and-burn mission. Nuns in love with each other, then discovered. Killed themselves." There's no commentary. No slurs. They were "in love." The real meat of the homophobia here is that he sent is queer son alone on his birthday to deal with them and it could be read as a message. That doesn't mean it's intended to be one.

That's all I can think of. It's not a lot and it's not definitive. It's perfectly valid to read it as support for homophobic John AND I think there may be some writer intent in the same way that monsters are often an allegory in the show and in media for queerness.

But it's also not a smoking gun. It's more of a unloaded gun with bullets next to it. So why do people think John is this super homophobic person?

Non-canon support and factors

There's a lot that goes into the interpretation of John that lies outside of the text.

His age and upbringing - He was raised in a time and place where acceptance of queer people wasn't exactly the default and then he went into the military which is also not exactly known for being particularly great for queer acceptance.

Classism - I say this gently to the fandom, but there is this idea that people who aren't in urban areas, and especially in poor rural areas must be homophobic. This comes up a lot in the Sam went to Stanford and is educated and therefore is a better ally headcanon. It's worth considering whether that is a factor here.

He raised his kids with military precision when he was around - there is no doubt that John was a hard man who treated his children like soldiers. A lot of people group gender and sexual orientation, especially when it comes to the gender aspects of masculinity where "be a man" and "be tougher" is frequently aimed at queer men. There's a lot of masculinity reinforcement for sure in the text and subtext of the show.

He's a bad dad and we're a bunch of traumatized queers with daddy issues. I know because I'm not only the owner, I'm a member.

I'm simplifying some of this, but there are a lot of factors that contribute to this reading and they are real and valid reasons. They just aren't textual and in some cases they are absolutely based in stereotypes. That's fine! Stereotypes aren't always incorrect. But they can be and it's worth wondering whether or not they are true.

There are plenty of people like John who are either not homophobic, or of the nature of it's fine if I don't see it variety of homophobia (which would actually be fairly logical to read into given the time and place of Dean's upbringing and the risk being openly queer presented especially for John who's priority is physical safety and preparation).

Personally, I find the lack of text to be fairly compelling, especially when we look at Dean's other behaviors, but that is my interpretation. I personally think John would have a problem with a monster boyfriend because of the monster bit, but doesn't give a fuck about the boyfriend bit except to the extent it may draw danger. I don't actually think John fits the rural strict father homophobic stereotype very well. He's not particularly religious. He doesn't seem to care what his kids do as long as they are safe and in the family business. He doesn't quiz Dean about where he was or who he was with.

I grew up in the South and have known a lot of homophobic parents in my day (including my own! See above). The pattern is often a parent who wants their kid to meet a certain social standard. Don't be gay because it will reflect bad on the family and you will go to hell. John shows negative interest in that arena.

He shows some of the don't be gay because it isn't manly aspects of that type of parent, but I also think a lot of people conflate masculinity with sexual orientation in this analysis. I say this specifically nodding to the Krikpe quote about umbrellas which in no way mentions being gay, but does mention being tough hunters not scared of demons. The text of that tweet and the story the fandom tells are two very distinct things.

It's very possible that those aspects of John's personality are part of why Dean performs tough het male so hard and that would be an aspect of what you are describing. I will also say however that Dean cries a lot. He's very open with his emotions and with caring for people. He's very good with people. Hes always been openly a caretaker. So he isn't performing masculinity so hard that those pieces of him are erased or hidden.

Why is Dean Like That if it isn't the daddy issues?

Let's look at this as if John wasn't openly and particularly notably homophobic. That is to say he had the casual homophobia of the 80s and 90s combined with a friend group of hypermasculine beer and bourbon drinking dudes with guns, but he wasn't, say, abusing Dean if he caught sight of potential gayness. Just to analyze the other question which is Dean's suppression of his feelings or denial of his queerness.

The fandom is not a monolith and I think there are lots of fans with lots of differing analysis in this arena, so I just want to again reiterate, this is all interpretation and headcanon! It's fine to fall anywhere in this spectrum.

Dean is Like That because he assumes he knows how his Dad would react

It's possible John talked about this idea that he has to get to an apple pie life long enough and made assumptions about the gender of his future partner, or that he was so neglectful or abusive, or that he made enough comments about being a "man" because he was worried about Dean being a victim, that Dean assumed his father would not support him. It's possible the canon events above where never intended to send a message to Dean that he still believed and read into them. That's not a criticism. We all interpret the things that happen to us. We are the ones who put meaning to an event, and that meaning may not match with the other person's intent. It doesn't make it invalid.

As you say, it may be a failure of parenting.

Dean is Like That because he grew up in the 80s and 90s

As someone who was born between Dean and Sam, I can say with the authority of experience that the 80s and 90s were a rough time to be queer. Like a really rough time. There were a lot of cultural things happening. Not to mention Dean had a rough upbringing.

HIV/AIDS - There are greater and more knowledgeable sources than me about this topic, but growing up during this time I can say that people were absolutely fucking awful about HIV/AIDS. We had school assemblies full of misinformation. Scores of people were dying and being told they deserved it. A lot of queer kids were internalizing the idea that queerness was a death sentence. I cannot actually come up with a good comparison in modern day. It was absolutely awful for the community, and the messages being delivered to kids was: "if you choose to be gay, you will die."

Casual homophobia - Remember when Misha used the f-word and people lost their fucking minds even though he was talking about lived experiences for most of us of a certain age? Yeah, that outrage was unimaginable to me as a kid. The idea that people would ever get to a point where the use of the word in a non-slur posture would even register. Slurs were thrown around all the time. People and things were "gay" and that was bad. Dean spent time being thrown from school to school and it would have been a massively important for him to come in performing cool masculine untouchable guy who enjoys women.

Dean lives in a transient space - He's constantly alone and in charge in places where someone might take advantage of him or Sammy. Being noticed and assumed weak is dangerous.

Counterpoint: Dean's upbringing may support more comfort rather than less with queerness, but it encouraged secrecy

To fully contradict myself, Dean was in transient spaces. That means he would have been interacting with more queer people than the average suburban or rural teen. He's in truck stops and no-tell motels. That boy met queer people. But he met people who were living in the shadows. This isn't unusual for that era. Queerness to dean was cruising and truck stops and one night stands in seedy motels. Something to be done but not to be seen.

Dean's reaction to queer people in canon supports this reading. He's never disgusted, but he's often surprised specifically about open and public displays of queerness. He tends to react to openly queer people with surprise and longing, but specifically most of his oh right there are queer people faces are reactions to open displays of queerness.

Even HIV/AIDS may have hit different in the hunting community. Dean didn't expect to live to an old age. I say this mainly because the lack of blood squick.

Consider a reading that he knows

We have so many lovely coded moments of queer Dean. The bathroom he disappears into. The way he gets clocked and doesn't deny it at times. Any denials he makes can be read to be situations where he doesn't know what the other person will react like.

I think it's very possible he isn't repressed at all! He just uses the closet as a shield or he doesn't share that information with people unless he wants to/trusts them/feels it's relevant to them.

PS DM me if you want to chat more and also I may have a discord of interest.

[marvelfanfn2187a113]

Random SPN take…

If John had had come back when Mary did in season 12, they would have ended up HATING each other (in my own humble opinion)

Think about it; John “family always comes first, I don’t even want my kids to meet other hunters” Winchester and Mary “my kids better never learn to hunt but I’m going to join the British Men of Letters” Winchester.

There woulda been blood.

Mary finding out that John raised her kids to be hunters (despite the fact that it was kind of her fault) is not something she would get over

John finding out that Mary decided to join the people that TORTURED his son—he never would’ve forgiven that

These two would get divorced so fast I can’t even—

Feel free to add to this/tell me why you agree or disagree

[honey-sweet-poet]

Recently I've noticed some parallels recently between Stanly Pines and Dean Winchester. The two families in general really.

Two close brothers and one extra brother and a judgemental emotionally abusive father.

Two brothers, one who takes care of the other even though he has his own problems, the other brother who used to appreciate it but begins to take it for granted.

The favorite son who doesn't see that he's the favorite son and only cares about getting out. The brother who leaves for college, who leaves his brother without looking back.

The other brother, who works so hard for the approval of his father, works hard to protect his family, but can never seem to do anything right. The muscle. The heart.

(Sorry if this doesn't make sense. It's Dean-Stan, Sam-Ford, Adam-Shermie, and the fathers.)

[kokabeeeel]

less a want – even lesser a need – but more a kin to desperation: a father simply seeking out his child.

after all, in technicalities, that’s what he was to sam; john was sam’s father- his daddy, he might not have taught sam how to walk, or talk for that matter, or go as far as to sit at the table and work over math problems with him – that was all dean’s job – but he was partly the reason sam even existed to begin with.

john wasn’t a begging man, a pleading man; what john wanted, he got, never needing to ask. alas when it came to spending time with sam, he practically had to bribe dean to leave: go kill this, boy. your brother and i will hit the books- prove to me you can handle this, prove to me your a man.

even after dean left, he basically had to force sam to stay in the same room as him; the kid desperate to run off after his big brother, but john wouldn’t have that.

john wasn’t blind, he knew that by isolating his boys they would grow dependent on one another, but it wasn’t like he was gone all the time; isolation could fit the three of them.

playing off that, he made sure that at times, he would just be he and sam: father and son, daddy and his baby boy. he could, no he would, get sam to love it.

if it meant beating it into him; forcing him to submission, forcing sam beneath him on cotton sheets, so be it.

[walkininawincestwonderland]

okay but this is actually a larger percentage of filial cannibalism than I expected 🙃

y’all are freaks 👍

[hacked-wtsdz]

I love early seasons supernatural aesthetics so much. The isolated highways, funky motel rooms, neon signs, shiny guns and shiny cars, leather jackets, old books, through a film camera lens in seasons one and two, makes for such a specific atmosphere. It transfers the isolation Sam and Dean experience so well, cramped into the seats of a 67’ Chevy impala, claustrophobically un-alone while individually lonely. The nasty, sometimes created with horrible special effects, monsters really do look monstrous, unsettling more than outright terrifying. With yellow eyes, in dirty clothes, glitching and pale. The whole colour palette is grey-ish and cold, you almost feel the contrasted darkness, the distrust, the nagging belief that something wicked may be hiding behind every corner, behind every corner of your own self as well. Idk. The blood looks dark, the sulfur looks sickeningly yellow, the skin looks unnaturally pale. It’s all so horror-coded, and gives such an atmosphere of instability in your own existence in the world, which aligns with the themes of the seasons. This atmosphere, to me, makes it a better horror show than if it had had better special effects and scarier monsters. Because the horrifying is in the daily existence, in how you are, rather than what you face.

[naturalsuper]

Is it just me, or does anyone else sometimes think that John would make Dean go on a hunt alone or go to Bobby's house to be alone with Sammy?

absolutely. when dean kinda started to catch up on what was going on and he would invite sam everywhere with him for a while, refused to leave him home alone with john for no longer than absolutely necessary. mostly because he was jealous and wanted sam all for himself but also there was this horrible need to be the favorite son and to be his dad's best little boy forever.

he still couldnt say no to john when he sent him on hunts, fuming whenever he came back to find sams neck covered in hickeys which he always explained by 'oh i went out with some girl' which dean knew was bullshit.

it took the three of them quite a while tonlearn to share

[walk-to-gallows]

"They will not lose what I have lost"

[petite-madame]

John Winchester - (2024)