#John Byrne's fantastic four run

[vertigoartgore]

1984's Fantastic Four Vol.1 #268 cover by photographer Eliot R. Brown. He talks in details about the making of this cover here :

[parkerharker]

And this is not the only example of John Byrne doing this. The man genuinely seemed to enjoy this dynamic (he was a pedophile) bc he used it ALL THE FUCKING TIME. I wish I could fully appreciate his work bc there is some very very creative stuff he did in the 80s. His work on X-Men, Fantastic Four, and Alpha Flight had a lot of big progressive swings for their time. But it’s like for every thing he did like introducing an out gay couple as main characters he did some fucking pedo shit. And he’s more recently seemed to just devolve into outright racism. It’s ridiculously disappointing and makes it just a little harder to appreciate some of the otherwise greatest comics written in the 80s like the Dark Phoenix saga.

Massive kudos to Matt Fraction & Tom Brevoort for retconning John Byrne’s creepy weirdo crap with Reed Richards & Susan Storm!

[keepsmagnetoaway]

Marvel Team-Up 100 (December 1980)

Chris Claremont/Frank Miller & John Byrne

We've read a fair few issues of the long-running Marvel Team-Up and it's always an interesting time: now, for its 100th issue, we have the treat of it featuring X-Men (or, at least, X-Men-related characters) in both its main story and its back-up, both of which are striking and important stories.

In the first of them, the featured team-up is actually Spider-Man (yay!) and the Fantastic Four (boo!), but the story also introduces the silhouetted figure you can see here, initially seemingly as a villain.

If you're thinking "fuck, these layouts are good," then you're right: it's Frank Fucking Miller! We don't have time for Miller Discourse - I will literally never have time for Miller Discourse - but Miller here was at the beginning of his imperial phase, having just started drawind Daredevil and being on the point of taking over writing on it too, and his distinctively moody take on New York City is on display in this issue. This nightmare Deco tower, at a wildly expressionist angle, is purest Miller.

Anyway, I'm skipping over most of the action here because it's Reed Richards bullshit and I hate it, but I do want to talk about that mysterious new character: it's Karma, and she's got Issues.

A beautiful panel filled with politics: that's good comics, baby. It's important to say that there is also a fair amount of tone-deaf stuff about Asians in this issue - Karma's wider family feature and they're not exactly subtly depicted, especially the villainous members, who include Karma's evil twin brother.

And yet...this is 1980, the Vietnam War is a recent memory in the US, and along comes a complex, traumatized Vietnamese character, who evolves from villain to anti-hero to something like a full-on hero in the space of this single comic when - in a moment that's genuinely shocking, coming as it does in the middle of a fight in which Peter Parker and Ben Grimm seem to be competing to make the most wise-cracks - she kills and psychically absorbs her brother. This, I repeat, is our introduction to this character, her very first issue. Fucking hell.

And that's Karma! The story ends just after this, with her tentatively established as some kind of hero, but the reader is none the wiser about what's coming next for her: which was, as you probably know, an integration into the X-Men world and a gradual emergence as one of the most interesting and popular characters of that world (helped by the fact that she also eventually turns out to be gay, hell yeah). It's a hell of an introduction and a fascinatingly political story about the shadow of American imperialism, and it's then followed by this issue's back-up story, which is also powerfully political.

This is a Claremont/Byrne story, a little chaser after our farewell to him in the main book, and (despite the team behind it...) it's about Blackness. It's The One Where Storm and Black Panther Meet, And Also Apartheid South Africa Tries To Kill Ororo.

It's actually largely told, after the initial sequence, in a flashback to their first meeting, and I have tried and failed to work out how it's supposed to fit in with the backstory also depicted in the 2006 Storm series - I don't think they exactly line up, but the 2006 series does sort of reference and expand on this story, in particular by reusing Andreas 'The Bull' de Ruyter, the enjoyably repulsive Afrikaner villain.

In the present, it turns out, de Ruyter is still trying to kill them, and they get to defeat him all over again, and part ways in a bittersweet, ship-teasy moment (again, no idea how this fits into subsequent canon with them getting married and so forth, but, who cares).

This is a really remarkable issue, all told, and though it's all created by white men, and as ever there are some, shall we say, heavy-handed moments, but its use nevertheless of a Vietnamese heroine, her life ruined by American warfare, and of two Black heroes fighting an explicitly apartheid-supporting villain is pretty striking: on top of which, the art is outstanding. Great stuff! This is also the start of a run of half a dozen guest appearances and the like from this era that we're about to read, so let's hope the rest of them are this interesting.

[co-mixed]

Fantastic Four by John Byrne 

This run is considered to be one of the must-reads, so well, I read it. And the whole thing left a weird aftertaste. Very similar to the one you have after learning more about its creator. Yes, one could be a good artist and a decent writer without being a good human. 

But we’re here to focus on content, not the creator, and that’s what I’m going to do. 

What it feels like

I jumped into this run right after Lee/Kirby, skipping most of the stuff in the middle. So it was a new take on the team right off the bat. Byrne focuses on the human sides of the FF a little more than the original run does. The structure of the stories also changes from a day at the Baxter Building -> a villain appears -> the villain is defeated. We start getting multiple chapters or issues in every arc, and it makes them more complex. 

In fact, complexity is certainly something that appears and grows from the 1970s to the 1980s. That’s true for most comics. 

But then there is the how it’s done and the what is done. And while one is a huge leap forward, the other is very controversial. I couldn’t find any explanations for some of the storylines aside from the idea hat (you know, when you get a hat, throw random ideas in it and start pulling.) Because of that, the stories seem disjointed. They connect to one another but it’s hard to say what exactly was the writer implying. Unfortunately, the more we know about the writer in question, the less chances we have left to misinterpret it into something more digestible. 

It’s not like that (or it shouldn’t be)

Byrne leans into the white savior trope. Every time the characters encounter racism, it feels ingenuine. Especially when blond blue-eyed Johnny jumps in to save Wyatt. This same feeling I got from Roy Thomas’s apartheid issue (FF #119) and it doesn’t get better. Yeah, we can argue that this is the 80’s but that trope is in no hurry to disappear. 

When it comes to political takes, Byrne’s are controversial, to say the least. I wrote a whole longread, complaining about the bizarre Latverian arc, in which the FF organized two coups in a row first bringing democracy to the people of the country, and then, handing it back to Doom. It’s all disguised into a lesser of two evils issue but it won’t sit well with anyone who’s familiar with autocratic regimes. 

Barely moving forward

Byrne also shakes up the character dynamics. But was any of it for the better? At times, he presents a more acceptable version of Reed. He is still an easily hooked, eager scientist who can neglect his family in favor of his work. But he’s not an absolutely intolerable garbage human anymore. He is also the least interesting character of the bunch because aside from science and condescending explanations, he doesn’t have much going on. He becomes more observant though, even noticing the change in Johnny when he starts dating Alicia (and I later will circle back to that absolute eww moment.)

While all that is true, Reed is also shown to be racist against Skrulls during his trial. His statements are what any racist would say. Verbatim.

It almost feels like Byrne himself is interested less in Reed and more in other members of the team. 

Women of Marvel

A lot of attention goes to Sue, Frankie Raye, and She-Hulk. And here I’d have to give Byrne some props. They are shown as competent and as strong (or potentially as strong) as their male counterparts. It’s suggested that Sue is actually the strongest member of the team, and it’s a very reasonable statement too. She stops being a quiet voice in the back and even reflects on that.

Unfortunately, I have to retract the props immediately because there is a weird violence kink that accompanies all the development. Like Alicia being badly beaten up by Annihilus, Sue being tortured by Mephisto, She-Hulk being photographed and then verbally assaulted by an editor. This is a repeated offense with Byrne's writing. 

Then, of course, there is the arc with Sue’s miscarriage and the one with Malice. Now the first one might not rub everyone the right way, but I think it’s something that made the 80s comics relatable - human issues that heroes face. And in this case, it’s one that comes not as a result of her superhero life but of her being exposed to cosmic rays. She doesn’t immediately forget it either, this arc echoes through the following issues and while I don’t know whether the portrayal is at all genuine, it’s there and that’s quite innovative. 

Go ask Malice

Malice is another Sue-centric concept, it’s her evil alter-ego that’s brought forth by a villain.

And here I have an issue because maybe instead of Psycho-Man - a hate-based villain (which was a mediocre concept all around) it could’ve been a manifestation of her grief and exhaustion with his behavior.

This could have (and should have been) an internal family matter for the FF with Sue confronting and possibly blaming Reed and Reed finally acknowledging how crappy he’s been and changing for the better. 

Sure this doesn’t have the scale of the whole NYC in a hate-fueled frenzy but it does have just the right tone for a family. While we’re at it, Byrne doesn’t have the best track record with tackling racism or bigotry issues so again, that would’ve been much better. 

Even if the concept itself was interesting, Byrne’s execution fumbled it completely. Sue’s hate is a twisted form of her love. And when it comes to Reed, Malice actually addressed all the reasonable points. He really has done every single thing she’d accused him of, and he proceeds to do them again. So really, he doesn’t learn anything from this whole ordeal. 

It’s even worse that Sue attacks him later, again, with reasonable demands of revenge on Psycho-Man, and Reed tries to dismiss her to focus on ‘more important stuff.’

I’d say the right thing to do would be to allow She-Hulk to immediately side with Sue because that’s what any woman would do no questions asked. Ideally, Johnny should have done the same – he was raised by Sue after all. On the other side, his only male role models are Reed (ew no thanks) and Ben (ew no thanks.)

When they finally face the villain, Byrne goes back to his favorite tools - torturing Sue. The torture isn’t physical but Sue keeps seeing an exaggerated version of Reed who blames her for everything and treats her like garbage. Shockingly, he’s not that different from the real Reed. 

I don’t have to be too negative here because, in the end, Sue does defeat the villain, punish him, and save Reed. She even changes her monicker to Invisible Woman (and that’s the name we know her by now). But again, some very odd decisions preceded that positive outcome. 

This arc is pretty sad to read because psychological manipulation and violation of a person’s psyche is a big deal. This could have been a groundbreaking arc. But instead, it gets cringey at times and doesn’t do the characters justice.

...And others

Like I said, Sue isn’t the only lady who gets to stand in the spotlight. I quite liked the character of Frankie (before she fell in love with Galactus for like 3 panels). She has quite a story, having a power she couldn’t access and a phobia connected to said power. With a little more development (I’m talking modern-day standards) she could’ve been a way more compelling character. But ultimately everything worked out pretty well, especially after her over-eagerness to resolve everything with brute force paid off when she became the herald of Galactus. 

She-Hulk is always a joy to encounter, and she takes over the Thing’s spot on the team for a while after the Secret Wars. She has a cute romance with Wyatt and that’s probably one of the most adorable things in this run. Because, you know, all the other romances are getting a hit. 

But not everything is as well as it may seem. As soon as Byrne’s done torturing Sue, he proceeds to torture She-Hulk.

What about love? 

Byrne delivers us one of the most unnecessary romance stories ever, and I’m saying this as someone who’s seen Scott fall in love with Jean’s clone, Gambit making out with Storm every chance he gets (I still ship it), Wanda and Cap, even Batman and Batgirl (and that was a new low).

So Johnny and Alicia. What was that about?

I could see that happening if she hadn’t been Ben’s very serious girlfriend: there are very reasonable elements in this story that reflect the schism in their relationship. They are both growing out of it and it makes perfect sense since Alicia is younger than Ben. In fact, she’d described as just a couple of years older than Johnny who in the beginning was in high school so… best not to think about it at all. Why are old comics like that (heavy sigh). 

Either way, before they break up, Ben stays on another planet and contemplates his relationship with Alicia, deciding that they should break up. Alicia comes to the same conclusion and bonds with Johnny over tragedies and danger. 

Here’s the thing though (for this, imagine me with a cup of tea and my glasses on). Johnny has known Ben his whole life and he has to have more decency than to start a relationship with someone who hasn’t yet broken up with Ben. The same can be said about Alicia but I hardly can hold this against her, since she is friends with them all but she still isn’t (at that time) tied to them that strongly. So yeah, I can see her do that and feel justified. 

But in general, what is this whole thing about? It’s a story that doesn’t do anything but portray both characters in the worst light. And it would’ve made sense had it been the endgame. But it wasn’t, we all know that. So I’m going to take it as a temporary insanity thing and push into that ‘We don’t talk about…’ drawer where things like Connor (Angel’s son), Xavier’s crush on Jean, and the whole Avengers 200 thing go to die. 

Another thing that goes into the same drawer is the origin of Sue and Reed’s relationship (I’m guessing pre-retcon). I’m not going to comment on that because I hate Reed enough as it is. There’s just nowhere for the hate to grow.  

Moving on

There’s also Franklin and he is growing, he’s 5 now and he… becomes an adult, puts blocks on his powers, goes back to being a kid, defeats Mephisto, and sees prophetic dreams about impending Doom. Not necessarily of the doctor variety. 

I have nothing to say about Franklin just yet, except that he looks like a very short adult rather than a 5 y/o. And that’s the creepy trend that plagues the comics of the 80's. 

Same old story

I feel like Byrne simultaneously tried to bring something new to the story and burn (or Byrne!) everything just to watch the flames.

And yet so many conflicts remained the same! Johnny goes through a weird love triangle just to end up with Alicia. The Thing is stuck in the same I-wanna-be-human-I-don’t-wanna-be-human vicious circle and I’m starting to wonder if they’re even planning on giving that up. We covered Reed already, and Sue is the only one who has some new stuff going on. But she is enough to make the run interesting.

As the run nears its end, there is an issue that reminded me more of Nocenti’s style (which I don’t know who started in the comics but she definitely perfected it), that focuses on Johnny dealing with his own impact on humans. It started out interesting with the boy burning himself to be like Human Torch, but then Beyonder showed up and instead of a psychological journey (as Nocenti probably would’ve done) we get a Deus ex-Machina solution.

Was it worth it? 

I write the following with a clear understanding that I was ready to give up at least thrice during this read-through. 

I would say that there are several arcs that deserve attention: the rewritten origin of Doom (that still doesn’t explain how we’re supposed to view him as a necessary evil rather than a terrible dictator), Galactus stories, Negative Zone travels, Sue telling off Reed, and so on. So if you’re thinking of reading the run, I’d say do. 

Keep in mind that there are trigger warnings, such as racism, violence against women, and miscarriage. Byrne's run is… a lot. If you feel too disgusted, better skip it. 

At the end of the day, we're really talking about this whole thing from today’s perspective. That means we all know the red flags in writing just as well as we do which tropes are harmful and why. 

We also realize that there are more ways to look at an issue than through the eyes of a stereotypical protagonist of the era. In the 80s comics were still becoming the art form we know and love today, and narrative mistakes were made. It’s easier to follow the story if you note them but don’t focus on them. Without that, they’ll be just a bunch of outdated narratives and harmful stereotypes.

[funnypages]

I think I brought up some of the age gap retconning of Sue and Reed so here's a rough outline of what writers have done

Stan Lee established that Reed loved Sue since they were kids but then in a letters column he had said that Reed and Ben are in their 30s and Sue is in her 20s thereby establishing a large age gap. (This was likely not intentional, Lee had a horrible memory for details in his writing)

John Byrne introduced the part where Reed was like in his 20s and Sue in her early 10s when he first met her but the age gap was already there. This was then kept as is, but mitigated over time like Before Fantastic Four - The Storms from the 90s brought up that while they did meet at first when she was 12 years old they did separate afterwards and by the time she was 16 years old she had dismissed her feelings as a one sided crush on her part.

Mark Millar and Brian Hitch's run shows their reunion, where they bump on the side of a road by which time she was already 21.

Matt Fraction & Mark Bagley's 2014 run finally just retcons it all and establishes Sue as an undergraduate when they first meet.

[blorb-el]

What is :dhosurro? I saw it in a fic and your post was the only thing that came up with a Google search lol. Also, I'm trying to get into Superman, so do you have any good starting places, or is it better to just bounce around? Anyways, I think you're really cool, and I love your blog. have a splendid day!!!

Anonymous asked: my bad that was YOUR fic please ignore me while I die of shame

OH NO DON'T DIE OF SHAME! it is indeed a word I made up, but the plant itself is canonical - you can read the story in the second story in Superman 236. I suppose I could have just called the flowers surrus, but I liked the idea of there being different species of this flower and this being the most aesthetically pleasing, so I appended the prefix for beautiful, which is :dhoia, to create :dhosurro (pronounced n-doh-surr-oh).

(^ that lady's jumpsuit is sick as hell. Also when I came across this story I immediately went, oh, opioids metaphor. Then like a year later I was like.... weed metaphor??? And then now I'm back to thinking it's an opioid/general addiction metaphor considering denny o'neil (who wrote the story) was pro legalization of weed but apparently struggled with alcohol addiction. Art by Dick Giordano.)

As for starting places! It really depends on how you like to read comics, if you want proper story arcs and context to things or if you're okay with a random dude showing up on the page for whom you have like 6 words of context in an editor's box. I distinctly remember the first four Superman comics I read in high school, on the advice of Some Random List Online: Birthright, All-Star, Superman For All Seasons, and Matt Wagner's Trinity oneshot. When I started getting back into Superman, I initially started with jumping around, and then pretty quickly found out that I loved the older precrisis interpretation of the character the most.

Birthright is top goddamn tier. Best origin story in my opinion. There's a moment about halfway through with a gun that made me understand not just Superman but, like, all superheroes. Mark Waid gets Superman in a way that very few writers do. I liked the art, but it isn't for everyone. If you liked Birthright, I highly recommend the current World's Finest 2022 run, with Mark Waid and Dan Mora. If you thought it was a little out there, the most 'standard' origin story is Geoff John's/Gary Frank's Superman: Secret Origins, and while I personally am a Huge Hater of John Byrne's Man of Steel it was the canonical origin story for a huge chunk of time that many comic fans love (post-Crisis, pre-Flashpoint), has admittedly good art, and is probably worth reading just for the context it gives to the era.

On a similar 'origin story' note I think that all Superman fans should read the first few issues of Action Comics, 1-10 or so. They're amazingly snappy - you can tell Siegel and Schuster assembled the story of Action 1 out of proposed newspaper strips, with the result that said action comes fast and furious. I also adore Action 12, wonderful wish fulfillment where Superman goes after irresponsible driving.

Superman: For All Seasons is a good story, I'm just not a huge Tim Sale fan. If you liked it, especially the art, Superman: Kryptonite is also a great story if kind of tricky to track down. It's in Superman: Confidential.

All Star Superman is a fantastic story and I don't regret reading it as one of my first four comics at all, but I think it works better the more you love Superman - every time I come back to it I get more out of it, and it's out of continuity so you can fit it in whenever. Morrison's stated goal was to write the version of Superman you see on a cereal box, and they get to break down the psychology behind the icon. It's a great book to show you the flawed, fascinating 'man' behind the super. If you liked ASS' (lol) general 'anything can happen' vibe, check out Morrison's N52 Action Comics run for another take on an origin story told out of linear time that has a lower powered, T-shirt clad Superman start with facing down corrupt bankers and end by facing down a cosmic bully. If you were eh on the writing style but liked the examination of how Clark balances being Superman and Clark Kent, the storyline 'Who Took the Super Out of Superman?' is an interesting Bronze Age look at the balance.

The Matt Wagner Trinity is just a really good look at the Trinity and a fun three-issue short story, Superman in particular comes across as really great in it. If you like the idea of short, character driven, self-contained stories, Superman has some excellent Elseworlds/one shot stories. Some of my favorites are Superman: Speeding Bullets (what if Thomas and Martha Wayne had no biological children but baby Kal-El fell in their backyard?), Up In the Sky by Tom King (6 issues: a little girl gets kidnapped by aliens, superman tracks her down), Superman Smashes the Klan, and Faster than a Speeding Bullet in Superman Adventures (2013) by Matt Kindt.

If you liked the focus on interpersonal dynamics in the Trinity oneshot, one of my favorite Superman titles is DC Comics Presents, which is about 100 issues of the Pre-Crisis Superman (my favorite incarnation of the character), where every issue is a team-up. I'd recommend almost all of them, but my particular favorites are #85 with Swamp Thing by Alan Moore, the 3-part arc beginning with #27 with J'onn, Kara, and the Spectre which is Clark's first encounter with Mongul, #41 with the Joker, and #50, where Superman teams up with...Clark Kent? And of course, if you also like Batman, pretty much any run of World's Finest is worth picking up, my ultimate favorite WF issue is the original run's #289, the infamous Kryll Way of Dying. If you like lois, my favorite story with that relationship is the 2-parter Is There a Doctor in the House/Under Enemy Fire from Superman Adventures #11-12 (1996), nominally set in the DCAU continuity but very readable as a standalone. This entire run is pretty great. And if you like the Justice League, the 2000s series is justly famous, also starting with a long Morrison run, and later on including the famous Tower of Babel storyline by Mark Waid.

As for non comics, I have a rec list of STAS episodes here and a rec list of radio show episodes here! If I had to pick just one, for the radio show I'd suggest listening to Clan of the Fiery Cross for its historical value or The Headless Indian for character dynamics. For STAS I would watch the origin if you're not tired of origin stories by now, or the best standalone episode IMO is The Late Mr. Kent. btw in the superbat server we might be starting a DCAU superbat themed curated watchthrough soonish if you might be into that pspsps

The Elliot S! Maggin novels Last Son of Krypton and Miracle Monday deserve a separate bullet point because they are so fucking good. Miracle Monday is one of my two favorite Superman stories. Maggin's interpretation of Superman isn't to everyone's taste but it sure is to mine.

For other Superman media, with the understanding they all have their own flaws, I'd recommend the first Christopher Reeve movie, Justice League: Action shorts, the DCAMU's Death and Return of Superman movies, SOME episodes of DCAU's Justice League (hereafter and for the man who has everything), the 50's George Reeves show's Panic in the Sky and The Dog Who Knew Superman as well as the Reeve movie The Mole Men, Lois and Clark: The New Adventures of Superman's pilot and further episodes if you like the clois romcom vibe, and Henry Cavill in Man of Steel, again with the understanding that all of these are more or less controversial in their own ways.

A note of caution about a few pieces of Superman media in particular: you'll see American Alien recced around. The author has been accused of being a serial rapist and has admitted to being a serial abuser at the point in his life he wrote it. I believe in the general principle of separating the artist from the art, but since this particular story is very self-expressive to the point of almost coming across as self-insert pseudo wish fulfillment, this inextricably stains the story to me. Your mileage may vary, and the author has made a public apology (which I find rather insincere, but again YMMV).

On a similar note the movie Superman Returns was directed by Bryan Singer and stars Kevin Spacey, both of whom have been credibly accused of child molestation. Even before I knew this I had some qualifications about it, but other fans like it. The plot will make much more sense if you watch the first two Reeve movies, as it's supposed to be a sequel to Superman II.

[wanderingmind867]

I once mentioned how I had a reading list for Marvel in my phone's notes app. I've tried to sort it by character, and it's mostly just a collection of Marvel Masterworks so far. I'm mostly reading whatever I can find online, of course. (if I can't find a masterwork, I read whatever I can find online). Here's some of it:

Marvel Masterworks: The Fantastic Four Vols 1-19: Everything from issue #1 to issue #218, right before John Byrne starts writing. For me, all this is peak fantastic four. Because as previously noted, I don't think I'd care for John Byrne's run.

Marvel Masterworks: Iron Man Vols 1-12: Everything from the beginnings back in Tales of Suspense, down to Iron Man #112. So everything up to right before the Demon in a Bottle storyline, give or take a few issues.

Marvel Masterworks: The Avengers Vols 1-16 and 18: Everything from Issue #1 up to Issue #163. All of Stan Lee, Roy Thomas and Steve Englehart's runs. Then I refuse to read Masterwork 17, because I hate the Korvac saga. So we pick back up for our finale with volume 18 and issues #178-188. Or the issues directly preceding the disastrous issue #200, give or take a bit.

Marvel Masterworks: The X-Men Vols 1-7: All the old stuff. The entire original X-Men stories, from #1 to #66. Plus the solo Beast stories from the 70s, and some other solo or crossover related X-Men stuff. This is the last X-Men thing I'll read, as I hate Chris Claremont's X-Men. Quite a lot.

Marvel Nasterworks: Nick Fury, Agent of Shield Vols 1-3: All Nick Fury's classic spy stories. These seem fun, honestly. I haven't read much spy fiction, but this sure sounds more interesting than Nick Fury's old ww2 stuff.

This is just some of it. If you want me to share more, I can try to. it'll probably be a bit dull to read, but it might be nice to share it.

[classicmarvelera]

John Byrne and Walt Simonson: The Unmatched Legacy in Fantastic Four and Thor

When it comes to the world of comic books, there are certain iconic names that instantly come to mind. Stan Lee and Jack Kirby, the creative geniuses behind characters like the Fantastic Four and Thor, are undoubtedly among the most revered figures in the industry. Their groundbreaking work laid the foundation for the Marvel Universe and set a high standard for storytelling. However, it's essential to recognize that the legacy of these characters didn't stop with Lee and Kirby. Two other legendary creators, John Byrne and Walt Simonson, took the reins and left an indelible mark on the Fantastic Four and Thor, ensuring that their contributions would remain unmatched for generations to come.

John Byrne's Fantastic Four (1981-1986): Redefining Marvel's First Family

In 1981, John Byrne had a mission: to redefine the Fantastic Four. Byrne's run on the series is often regarded as one of the most significant in the history of the team. He brought a fresh perspective to the characters and their dynamics, breathing new life into Marvel's First Family.

Byrne's artistic talents were on full display as he not only wrote but also illustrated the series. His attention to detail and ability to convey emotions through his artwork added depth to the characters. Byrne's run gave us memorable storylines such as "The Trial of Reed Richards" and the return of the iconic villain, Galactus. He also introduced new characters like She-Hulk, who would become a fan-favorite in her own right.

What made Byrne's run truly exceptional was his ability to balance character development with epic storytelling. The Fantastic Four faced personal challenges while also tackling cosmic threats, creating a perfect blend of drama and action. Byrne's work on the series is a testament to his storytelling prowess and his dedication to preserving the essence of these beloved characters.

One of the key aspects of Byrne's run was his exploration of the dynamics within the Fantastic Four. He delved deep into the relationships between Reed Richards (Mr. Fantastic), Sue Storm (Invisible Woman), Johnny Storm (Human Torch), and Ben Grimm (The Thing). The interpersonal conflicts and growth of these characters made the series not just about super-heroics but also about family, a theme that resonated with readers and set the stage for future interpretations of the team.

Walt Simonson's Thor (1983-1987): The God of Thunder's Epic Journey

Simultaneously, over in the realm of Asgard, Walt Simonson took up the mantle of Thor in 1983. Much like Byrne, Simonson's run on Thor is celebrated as a defining era for the character and the series. He brought a mythic grandeur and a sense of epic adventure that elevated Thor's stories to new heights.

Simonson's Thor was a masterclass in world-building. He introduced iconic elements like Beta Ray Bill and the mystical weapon, Stormbreaker. Simonson's writing delved into the rich tapestry of Norse mythology, creating a sense of wonder and authenticity in Asgard's portrayal. His artistic style and intricate panel layouts added to the epic feel of the series, making every issue a visual masterpiece.

One of the most memorable arcs of Simonson's run was "The Surtur Saga," a sprawling epic that saw Thor facing off against the fire demon Surtur. The impact of this storyline resonates even today, and it remains a benchmark for epic storytelling in comic books.

Simonson's take on Thor was not just about battles and grand spectacles; it also delved into the character's humanity. He explored the burdens of godhood and the responsibility that came with wielding the power of Mjolnir. Thor's inner struggles and his unwavering sense of duty added depth to the character, making him relatable on a personal level.

In Conclusion, the creative endeavors of John Byrne on the Fantastic Four and Walt Simonson on Thor are nothing short of legendary. While Stan Lee and Jack Kirby's contributions are undeniably classic and groundbreaking, Byrne and Simonson's work brought these characters to new heights. Their storytelling prowess, artistic talents, and deep appreciation for the source material ensured that their runs on these series would remain unmatched for generations to come. The legacy of these four creators, Lee, Kirby, Byrne, and Simonson, continues to shape the Marvel Universe and inspire fans and creators alike, proving that the world of comic books is a rich tapestry woven by many hands.

In the end, what sets Byrne and Simonson apart is their ability to not only build upon the foundations laid by Lee and Kirby but also to leave an indelible mark that would define these characters for years to come. Their contributions to the Fantastic Four and Thor are a testament to the enduring power of storytelling in the comic book medium, and they shall continue to captivate readers and creators alike for generations to come.

Get John Byrne's Classic Marvel Collection here

Get Walt Simonson's Classic Marvel Collection here

[gh0stofstarman]

So after making my last post I decided I’d give my two cents on the other big run that most people point to as one of the golden standards for X-Men. This one’s a bit more fresh in my mind than Claremont, probably just due to the fact it’s much, much shorter. But I do have a ramble for this one too, don’t you worry.

Grant Morrison

I love a lot of Grant Morrison’s work. They’re probably one of the most bonkers writers out there. I’ve read All Star Superman front to back multiple times, I’m currently thumbing through their JLA. I really wanna get into their Animal Man. Dunno if I’d vibe with Doom Patrol just because it may be a bit too insane even for my tastes. Only thing I’ve really avoided of theirs is Wonder Woman: Earth One. From what I’ve read it seems like a swing and a miss. Ironic, because I’m one of the few people nowadays who immensely cares about Wonder Woman’s comics.

And New X-Men carries Grant’s penchant for swinging for the fences, high concept sci-fi, fantasy, drama, what have you. I love that Morrison leaned into the angle that some Mutants don’t have powers that are useful or that they can hide.

Sometimes your mutants aren’t conventionally attractive, and that’s great. They still deserve a chance to live! And I love that’s part of the narrative. It shouldn’t matter if you’re a mutant, it should matter who you are and what you do as a person.

Grant also leans into much more complicated ideas of romance and relationships, paving the way for the allegory of mutants to extend into LGBTQ+ lenses. The school is actually a school now! Professor X is more like the movies where he’s not really a conceited jerk who would drop the X-Men at the drop of a hat, but still comes in conflict with the newer generation.

Genuinely Morrison’s New X-Men is built upon ideas for a maturing, more complicated evolution of what Claremont was cooking.

Mostly.

And there lies the problem that’s always stopped me from clicking with Morrison’s X-Men.

Grant Morrison and Mark Millar

(Please note this surprisingly apocryphal gag was before Morrison preferred They/Them and came out as Nonbinary.)

Everybody has their edgy phase. At least I hope we do, would explain a lot.

Grant Morrison had a bit of a reputation in the 90s and 2000s as the big shot, new kid in town. They weren’t afraid to throw shade at Alan Moore, John Byrne, or really any of the old school comic veterans. They were here to play it out loud and in their own way.

They’d work very often together with Mark Millar, setting a real rebellious attitude with them. They weren’t afraid to be edgy, make crass jokes about toilet humor or stuff best left for the bedroom and doctor’s office.

And often times it worked. It wasn’t as though Morrison couldn’t reel it in to be serious like in JLA. But you don’t get a somber story about a cartoon coyote grappling with existentialism in a superhero comic from a normal joe.

Basically what I’m saying is, Morrison could be crass, but knew how to control it within the narrative. Something Mark Millar kind of struggled with.

I don’t have anything deep to really say about Millar and Morrison but they clearly were once conjoined at the hip. Once, being the key word seeing the quote above. But the irony is that when both writers were working on X-Men, it seems Morrison picked up some bad habits from their coworker.

A Dog-Kicking Intervention

Something I notice with Mark Millar’s writing is that he has a good structure for a story, the real great bones of something. However, when it comes to dialogue, it feels like he has to derail it by throwing in the most edgy, tryhard stuff to shock the reader. (The A does stand for frAnce, the fr is silent.) Either that or it’s just kind of blatant soap boxing of these characters without really understanding their history. There are many series that feel like this to me, like Marvel Knights Spider-Man, Civil War, Fantastic Four.

Unfortunately that kinda bled into Morrison’s work, and I feel their New X-Men suffers as a result.

New X-Men has some really brilliant ideas, but it also can be unreasonably cruel and edgy in a bad way. And that’s not to say that it’s due to the themes, as it deals with very heavy stuff like Genocide and PTSD. Some topics do have to be approached even though they’re brutal.

No, a good example would be Ugly John. Ugly John is introduced in the opening arc, E is for Extinction. A brutal story about how millions of mutants die in Genosha due to Cassandra Nova attacking with Sentinels. Wolverine, Cyclops and Ugly John are sent to stop Nova while the rest of the X-Men perform triage.

Ugly John doesn’t have any powers. He doesn’t have any skills. He has three faces. He’s not actually here because he has a purpose. He’s ugly. He’s not even named Steve. That’s the joke. That’s the joke Morrison makes over and over to try and undercut the gravity of the situation.

Then he dies.

What was the point of Ugly John? To fit in a dark moment, not really adding a point besides “wow life sucks doesn’t it?”

That’s probably the biggest thing that sours me on New X-Men. It doesn’t really have the confidence to fully recognize the seriousness of its material and that it doesn’t need any edge to further make a point. Reality is edgy.

And so I feel like this sort of lack of nuance kinda brings down the run. It never feels fully confident that it should be discussing these topics with nuance, so it has to throw something in for the South Park crowd.

Cyclops is nervous about how long Jean and him have been in a relationship for? Well obviously it’s gotta lead to him and Emma making a big affair in bed.

A mutant is developing her powers suddenly and is kicked out of her family? Her powers should be a gross out parallel to morning sickness so her dad thinks she’s pregnant, and she’s a gross stereotype of black people living in the south.

A toddler mutant is being killed by their parents so that they don’t have to live with a mutant? Let’s make a couple of jokes about how the mutant ate a dog.

Jean Grey confronts another mutant who’s able to make illusions that confuse even her? The other guy makes a remark that she wants to sleep with him even though it’s never hinted before and just used so he can escape.

You see what I mean?

It doesn’t really feel like this stuff is in service to the serious plot, it’s just kinda mean-spirited without much actual narrative purpose. Sometimes it’s even derailing the point that Morrison is trying to make. Like Emma Frost’s PTSD is undercut entirely by how inappropriate she acts towards her students, so she comes off as unintentionally unsympathetic. Or Cyclops’ anxiety isn’t given room to breathe and acknowledge that he doesn’t consent to her advances.

Therefore it just comes off as Morrison kicking the dog for no reason.

It just really disappoints me because Morrison is such a skilled writer. But New X-Men fell within that edgy phase and it makes it hard to enjoy the concepts they come up with.

[ironsaguaro]

John Byrne's LEGENDARY Fantastic Four RUN Begins HERE!

[lifethenecropolis]

Comics of 2024: Danger Unlimited 1-4!

John Byrne’s 90s creator-owned Fantastic Four style comic. Finally picked it up, first saw the Wizard poster at a shop when I was a kid. Thought the rock character was Badrock. Amazing comic! Story really grabbed me, sad knowing it wouldn’t pay off.

It didn’t sell well at the time, I think the covers are partly to blame. Great team member covers for later in the run, but nothing about them says this is Byrne doing his own FF book. Half of the covers obscure the title, and all have a chunk dedicated to Torch of Liberty. Not great design.

#dangerunlimited #johnbyrne #backissuecomics

[racefortheironthrone]

speaking of claremont, he for x-men, walt simonson for thor, frank miller for daredevil, peter david for hulk, are among those known for really formative runs post silver age in developing and changing their respective titles - any others of note you'd throw into the pot for other titles like captain america, iron man, fantastic four, spider-man, etc. that're worth checking out in that era?

Well, I've written about Captain America plenty - most recently, I wrote about Mark Gruenwald, who also had one of those long formative runs. Iron Man I'm less familiar with, but even I know about Michelinie and Layton who did "Demon in a Bottle" and "Armor Wars."

Simonson had a very good run on FF. I'm less fond of John Byrne's run, which in my opinion got a bit creepy about Sue Storm. And then there's a big gap in my FF knowledge until you get to Hickman and Fraction/Alred.

As for Spider-Man, I'd go with Gerry Conway, Tom De Falco, J.M DeMatteis, and Roger Stern.

[keepsmagnetoaway]

X-Men: The Hidden Years 12 (November 2000)

John Byrne & Tom Palmer

This is a double-length "anniversary" issue: as far as I can tell, the anniversary in question is of this very book, rather than any bigger Marvel milestone, so it's just celebrating having got to issue 12 by doubling up in length. Is this a good thing? Unclear.

The whole issue does less than you might expect, but given the previously breakneck pace of everything that's maybe not a bad thing; most importantly, a few plotlines are finally tied up and joined together, stopping (for now!) the uncontrollable sprawl of this book: notably, a whole three of the five X-Men (plus Candy Southern) are now in the same place at the same time, that place being the clutches of the Blob.

I also can't not show you this totally irrelevant panel of the Blob and his sexy attendants.

There's also a whole bunch of Magneto in here, who has run-ins with Sauron and with Lorna, Alex and Ice-man, who are finally united. You can tell from dialogue and footnotes like this that the status of Magneto at the moment is...tricky.

Some great action pages, though:

This all ends rather weirdly: Magneto appears to die and is then picked out of the ocean by the suddenly-in-this-comic Namor, who apparently has to spirit Magneto away to fit him back into the existing Marvel timeline for an appearance with the Fantastic Four that I do not care about.

This is sort of silly as the issue has been bigging up Magneto the whole time, only for him to get taken off the board, but even sillier is Sauron deciding to just leave the story too: instead of fighting Bobby and co. he "realises" that killing them would only lead to the other X-Men hunting him down, so he mind-wipes them (??) and vanishes, leaving them with no memory of how they reunited.

This is all extremely dumb and this is objectively a bad issue but it is finally managing to wrestle this whole series into a manageable shape so I am at least optimistic about the next few issues. Surely I won't live to regret this.

[intrapanelreturns]

FANTASTIC FOUR #240 1982, Marvel Comics John Byrne and Terry Austin cover

I could go on for awhile about John Byrne’s run on Fantastic Four. I came to it early, not really having read too much of the old comics and really not appreciating the Lee/Kirby issues for what they did and how powerful they were. That said, I really love the first half of Byrne’s run. It crackled before it fizzled. This is one of the high points.

[marksarmel]

What I've been Consuming - 01/31/24

Welcome back to a new year of What I’ve Been Consuming! Now, slide out of those DMs and into your comfiest Snuggie and drown in the soft glow of your picture box.

MOVIES:

Rebel Moon Pt.1 - You know when you meet a really attractive person and you get a date with them and then they start talking, like really talking and then you find out they’re completely empty inside. This movie is like that. Zack Snyder can make a beautiful movie, but it just has no heart. There’s some cool stuff here, but it just doesn’t have anything that really makes me feel hopeful for the characters. Snyder needs a writing partner that can flesh out all the parts he just races by. This is a perfect background movie, which is not a good thing.

Godzilla Minus One - Whooo baby is this some fantastic giant kaiju moviemaking. This movie can feel a bit slow, but it all pays off in the end. This movie perfectly mixes modern effects, while still nodding to Godzilla’s original look and feel. Watch how he moves, it’s a bit clunky like the original rubber suit, it’s intentional and it works. The characters all give great performances and the time we spend with them makes their stories all the more compelling. There are some truly beautiful shots of destruction here and when Godzilla shows up he is just awe inspiring. See this however you can, and on the biggest screen you can.

Skinamarink - Super weird and creepy and filled with slow mounting dread. This is no ordinary horror movie or even an ordinary movie. Two children awaken in their home that has no doors or windows and their parents seem to be missing. It’s filmed in a sort of lost footage style with very little dialogue. This feels like an art house film and takes some endurance to get through it. Is it worth it? I’m not sure, but it stuck with me for days after viewing it. As I said earlier, this is no ordinary movie. If you decide to watch it, turn out all the lights and let yourself get lost in this creepy world.

TV: 

Scavenger’s Reign - Boy oh boy is this fantastic! The planet! The people! The weirdness! I know that’s a lot of exclamation points, but it’s all true. This is just so out there and so full of magical wonder. I feel like a bunch of amazing people got in a room and just said, “what if the planet did this…” over and over again. The planet is the main character here and it is relentlessly surprising. Watch it and then rewatch it again. Available on HBO Max.

Blue Eyed Samurai - All action with a great story and some great voice acting. Oh, and the animation is absolutely top notch. This is so great you might want to binge it, but I implore you to slow down and savor it. It’s worth it. I really can’t say enough good things about this series so I’ll just stop talking. Available on Netflix.

MUSIC:

Olivia Rodrigo - Guts - I love this album and I don’t care who knows! It’s full of glorious tunes that bring back all the good high school feels. Even the sad feels are welcome here as sometimes it’s fun to remember all the things that seemed so serious back then, but really weren’t that bad. Just put this album on and enjoy!

COMICS:

Omac - Story and art by John Byrne - I spend a lot of time digging around used bookstores to see what the mom’s of comic collectors have dumped there. I come across a lot of crap, but I also stumble across some hidden gems. I’m not a super big DC fan and Omac is not a character I’m too familiar with, but I love me some John Byrne. When I found all four parts of this 1991 series together I snapped it up right away and I’m happy I did. The art is b+w with a heavy use of halftones throughout. Byrne is as fluid as ever here and the story

Speaking of John Byrne I’m slowly picking up his 28 issue run on Alpha Flight. I’m probably 80 percent there and I’m loving every minute of the digging through crates, searching Ebay and of course the reading. It’s just good clean fun.

Alright that’s all for now. Trying to get into a rhythm with these things so look for one next month.

[levisgeekstuff]

Fantastic Four door Walt Simonson

Schrijver en tekenaar Walt Simonson is natuurlijk vooral bekend van zijn geweldige en lange run op Thor. Die is helaas nooit in het Nederlands verschenen. (In het Engels overigens wel mooi gebundeld in een Marvel Omnibus, een aanrader!) Maar de man heeft ook een leuke en verrassende run gehad op Fantastic Four. En die is wel gewoon bij ons verschenen in de reeks Fantastic Four Special van Juniorpress. Toegegeven, deze verhaallijn haalt niet het niveau van die van voorganger John Byrne, maar het blijft wel één van mijn favoriete FF hoofdstukken.

Dat tekenwerk 😮😍

De verhalen in de run zijn op zich niets bijzonders. Al kreeg de tijdelijke vervanging van de FF door de 'New Fantastic Four' best wat aandacht. De oorspronkelijke leden werden enkele nummers vervangen door grote kanonnen als Wolverine, Spider-Man, Hulk en Ghost Rider. Lekker commerciëel 😉.

Ook de barre tocht waarbij de Fantastic Four verloren geraken in de tijdstroom is zeer vermakelijk.

Maar wat de run écht bijzonder maakt is het artwork en de pagina-indeling van Walt Simonson. Hij experimenteert er op los met opgeknipte kaders en composities. Simsonson deinst ook niet terug voor 'goedkope' truukjes, zoals een scène in het donker waarbij de tekenkaders gewoon zwart zijn en we enkel tekstballonnen zien. Dat alles samen zorgt voor een erg dynamisch, verrassend en fris geheel. Geniet even mee:

En ook nog dit

De grote doorbraak van Walt Simonson kwam er jaren voor zijn werk op FF en Thor met Star Slammers. Dat verhaal gebruikte hij als portfolio om binnen te geraken bij DC. Jaren later zou een verder uitgewerkte versie van dat verhaal trouwens nog verschijnen als Marvel Graphic Novel. En jawel hoor, die is ook in het Nederlands verschenen in de reeks Marvel Strip bij Juniorpress 🎉: