#Idk starting to read knightfall so

[yyyeowza]

started writing my script for the next comic I’m making.. at some point Tim says “eep!” And I got sooo emotional cause he wouldn’t say that. except he would :( he would say that

[wintersettled]

Here's a list of recs if you'd like to read somecomics about different batfam characters:

BRUCE WAYNE - Batman: Year One (1987) - Batman: The Long Halloween (1996) & Dark Victory (2000) - Batman: Knightfall Saga (1993) - Batman: No Man's Land Saga (1999)

SELINA KYLE - Catwoman (1989) - Catwoman (1993) - Catwoman: When in Rome - Catwoman: Selina's Big Score

DICK GRAYSON - Robin & Batman (2022) - Robin: Year One - The New Teen Titans (1980) - Nightwing (2016) #35-43 - Batman: Black Mirror

JASON TODD - Batman: The Cult - Batman: A Death in the Family (i dont actually care for this but i feel obligated to include it so here...) - Batman: Under the Red Hood - Robin Lives!

TIM DRAKE - Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying - Robin (1993) - Young Justice (1998)

CASSANDRA CAIN - Batgirl (2000) - Batgirl (2008) - Batgirl (2024) - Birds of Prey (2023) (which also includes Barbara!)

BARBARA GORDON - Batgirl: Year One - Black Canary/Oracle: Birds of Prey - Birds of Prey (1999) (especially Gail Simones run!!) - Suicide Squad (1987) #49-50

DAMIAN WAYNE - Batman and Robin (2011) - Robin: Son of Batman - Robin (2021) - The Boy Wonder - Batman & Robin (2023) (currently ongoing! imo this would be a good place to start reading since its happening right now so you can see it happen along with everyone else!)

DUKE THOMAS - Batman: Zero Year - We Are Robin - Batman & The Signal

HELENA BERTINELLI - Huntress: Year One - The Huntress (1989) - Batman/Huntress: Cry for Blood - Helena is also a character in birds of prey from issues #57-127 and a reocurring bat character in the 90s

STEPHANIE BROWN - Detective Comics #647-649 - Showcase '95 #5 - Robin (1993) #126-147 (steph has a ton of appearances in Robin 1993 so it would be good to read that for more or to look through her appearances on locg if you just want to read about her! these chapters are her as Robin.) - Batgirl (2009)

I haven't read a super large amount for every single one of them so disclaimer that some of the ones I mention here might not be their best! These are what I could think of but there are plenty more, especially as standalone issues, so if anyone sees this please mention more!! also, there are lots of comics that are questionable but this list was very much on the fly off the top of my head so i was kind of sat here with my head in my hands like 'god i need to give more than one jason todd comic dont i....' and this was all i could come up with that wasnt like.... a random detective comics issue idk

I'd also like to say these feature a lot of minis just for ease but there are a ton of really good guides available for these character -- imo a lot of Jason's best stuff is as Robin within tec and batman

[perfectmanisperfect]

this has just turned into me live-blogging my experience through batman comics. i’m about to start knight fall but i’m also following a tim drake chronological reading order and i think my brain just broke trying to figure out what’s up. and i only have the dc unlimited app subscription thing but not ultra so i have to read each comic separately and the stupid tim drake list is slightly different than the knight fall reading order and I DONT KNOW WHATS GOING ON

i think i’m just gonna follow whatever the comics say and then see some tim drake when he appears and hopefully i’ll get all of knightfall. this is literally just me switching from google to comics and back to google in an endless loop. idk i’m just kinda screaming into a void.

thank u for coming to my ted talk

[mysteriousbeetle]

comics situation update (summer 2024)

this is mainly from june onwards

comics i've finished so far (kind of in order):

new teen titans (1980)

the question (1987)

the question quarterly

the question returns

azrael plus the question

the omac project (2005)

52

checkmate (2006)

crime bible: five lessons of blood

final crisis: revelations

azrael (1995)

azrael/ash

arsenal (1998)

so it's been the summer of the question for me. it seems like i've been reading a lot of greg rucka and dennis o'neil too. azrael plus the question (and also knightquest) is what got me interested in reading azrael comics. i wanted to try reading checkmate because mem made it seem intriguing and i read the omac project because they recommended reading that first :]. also arsenal 1998!!! was so cute and nice!!! roy and lian are the father daughter duo of all time <3. yeah. i've also just been reading titans comics while on public transport so i finally got to the end of ntt (1980) at the beginning of the month.

comics that i'm in the middle of (not including ongoings):

hardware (1993)

birds of prey (1999)

the new teen titans (1984)

batman: no man's land

batman: knightfall saga

deathstroke (2016)

i think that's it. they're all pretty good and i read them at different paces.

comics i want to read (not in any particular order):

wonder woman (1987)

books of magic (idk which one but i'll investigate)

the question: convergence

lois lane (2019)

hellblazer (1988)

batman: gotham knights

i've just been meaning to read wonder woman and hellblazer for a while. also gotham knights but i'll probably hold off on that at least until i've finished nml. the question: convergence and lois lane are next on my renee reading journey. and izzy's book of magic posts were intriguing so i'm going to give it a try :].

comics i want to reread (not in any particular order):

the question: pipelines

batman/huntress: cry for blood

maybe batgirl (2000) too hehe

i might try rereading pipelines before starting the question: convergence because i think they might be connected? but also i've just been wanting to revisit it after reading more renee stories. i just love cry for blood and i want to read it again now that i've read huntress (1989) and the question (1987) because i feel like i might understand it/like it even more now with added context. batgirl 2000!!! and now i can read physical copies for puckett's run and some other parts too. but idk. maybe i'll wait a little longer.

anyway i think that's all :D

[cowchickenbeefpork]

What do you think about HPD for Riddler?

my Gotham instagram oomf head canons him as that plus npd! I don’t personally believe he would have it if we’re talking gotham edward, I do think he has hpd traits just like he has aspd traits as well but I don't think they're that extreme or common to count as much (I know I hc him as bpd also when it barely meets the criteria for that too but shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh its real to me alright if gotham locked in more it would basically be canon let have this) when it comes comic riddler idk I need to read more comics to have thoughts on that, I've only read him in the long Halloween, questions multiply the mystery, and that one issue in knightfall where he's mad as shit all the other rogues are doing shit so he pretends to have a bomb on him on live television. he did not

i do respect the hc and think its interesting though, its a interesting read on him as a character, I think the only cluster b hc I have negative feelings for is aspd gotham ed I just cant see it guys I wont deny he has aspd traits but even conduct disorder feels like its pushing it I feel like he has aspd traits due to his other mental problems in gotham like his narcissism, psychosis, ocd problems you get what I mean ( otto kernberg when describing malignant narcissism says that sometimes non aspd having/non aspd traits having narcissists will act like them when their narcissistic defenses aren't helping them cope, that is what he feels like to me when he starts acting like that) you can have ur fun but it feels kinda like a mischaracterization of him that throws me off. people can view him however they like though my red is not your red I don't wanna be too mean that's weird

[havendance]

Ask Game: 5, 10, 16, 25

5. What’s a fic idea you’ve had that you will never write?

My idea for a JPV fic where he joins a superhero teams and gets a baby. There's a lot I like about it, but it'd also be a lot of work that I'd rather invest in different fics. The basic idea of the fic is that post-Knightfall, Jean-Paul Valley ends up forming a team with members that I never completely settled on (part of the reason it'd be more work than I willing to put in) but that potentially include Steel, Supergirl, Connor Hawke, Booster Gold, Lyta Hall, Tera II, etc. Just when he's getting settled in, who turns up but an old friend from college. They'd had a one-night stand when Jean-Paul was going off the rails as Batman, and congratulations, it's a boy!

The fic would then go into Jean-Paul figuring out how to deal with his new found fatherhood, sort out his relationship with the friend, etc. This would prompt him to go looking more into how the order creates its Azraels because he's worried about accidently turning his son into him. The order also probably tries to kidnap the baby (named something on the nose like Gabriel or Micheal) at some point.

The other reason I'm not going to write this fic is that I so desperately want Cass to also be involved in this team, but I cannot come up with a way to make it work.

10. Is there a fic that got a different response than you were expecting?

This isn't quite the same, but both of the fics in my No Truce with the Furies series, I was kind of surprised by how many readers seemed be totally on board with the fact that Jason was killing Bruce in retribution for Bruce killing him and thinking that was good and justified (and also this thread that 'well the furies did it so it's automatically right) when I was playing more with this idea of the cycle of vengeance and 'wouldn't it be messed up if this happened'. Aeshylus wrote like a whole trilogy about how Athens is super awesome and cool that it has murder trials instead of the retributive justice of the furies, so like, idk what to tell you man. (When I took a class on ancient greek and roman theater, my professor said that she tended to be less interested in like the Oresteia because it's exploration of kin-killing and vengeance felt less relavent to the modern day than like, Medea. And I was over here thinking 'I don't know, I think the Batman fandom could use some of that.) I think that is a thing I should have maybe see coming though considering how loyal some of Jason's fans are.

16. At what point in the process do you come up with titles?

It really depends on the fic. Sometimes it's really easy to come up with a title and I come up with it during the planning/ideation process. For example, I knew that I wanted to title Batman for Dummies that before I even started writing it. Other times I'm thinking on it during the writing process and if all else fails, sometimes I have a complete draft and have to scramble to come up with something. This happens a lot of times with drabbles and they end up with really basic names as a result.

25. Have you ever upset yourself with your own writing?

Not really. There are tropes that I can find distressing/emotional sometimes when reading (like major character death, I also avoid fics where Bruce is dead for real), but if I'm writing with them then I've found an angle on it that I like and find interesting and want to explore. It's this 'wouldn't it be messed up?' sort of feeling. If something's really upsetting to me, I'm more likely to avoid writing it.

All that being said, I did find myself getting a little emotional when writing the scene in The King is Dead, Long Live the King, where Tim comes back after Bruce dies.

[roobylavender]

ive been scouring through your old specifically batman related posts and you mentioned how you were reading batgirl 2000 but havent finished it and i would genuinely love to know your thoughts because personally i feel like it genuinely establishes cass as such an interesting character and i think you would find her fascinating . however i find myself disliking bruce more often than not like i feel like nearly everything he teaches her is unhealthy lol like yes cass you should throw your life away for others and dedicate yourself solely to the mission. he definitely has a fondness for her but i dont know. and i feel like that one issue, #50 or around that, i just dont know how to feel with bruce wanting to physically fight her and i feel crazy for taking a bit of an issue with that considering everyone glosses over it? like yes the end of that is about has cass accepting his love which is nice and him giving it to her in a way she understands but i think some things he does are a bit. idk idk

[in tears] i think it was more than a year ago i picked up the preliminary dc issues part of no man's land to start reading about her and then for some reason i never continued like i think i got busy.. i really need to like sit down properly sometime this summer if i can and start from knightfall and proceed onward so i can get in the right headspace for re-evaluating bruce's progression again. bc i am definitely interested in what i have heard of bruce's more unorthodox parenting methods in batgirl and much as i am loath to portrayals of bruce as an outright hostile parent i am not entirely opposed to him embodying a parenting style that is simply.. very weird and maybe questionable as an extension of how crazy the phenomena of the robins and batgirls is in the first place. like yes it's a reflection of his deep empathy and compassion that he adopts dick and jason and then allows them to use robin as a conduit through which to channel their angers and fears so they don't turn out as emotionally isolated or obsessive as he thinks he did but it's also obv not really a normal thing to do! and you could def argue it's something that sets bruce's relationships with his sidekicks apart from that of his peers and their sidekicks (although i suppose some people might want to compare with arthur/garth or ollie/roy, but my answer to that would be that at least from what little of aquaman canon i have read i don't think arthur had any particular motive in taking on garth as a sidekick beyond it simply being convenient after the adoption; and with ollie i think that's even more true bc it's the lack of motive that leads to his temporary rift with roy bc ollie hasn't put quite enough thought into what he wants roy to be and that is something that hurts roy in turn). no normal parent is going to tell their kid to fight them in order to ascertain if they're truly committed to the cause. but a bruce who has by now had experiences with a handful of children whom he believes he imposed a duty onto rather than allowing them to come to the conclusion of wanting to uphold that duty themselves, may very well think asking his adopted daughter to fight him to prove her intent is logical and a means of ensuring he is not making the same mistakes all over again. doesn't make it any less crazy a thing to do! but it's certainly bruce to the core. interestingly i am curious if that is something barbara calls him out on bc if anyone were to do it i feel like she would. i like that she's the person who gets to poke at him for being a bit of a paranoid weirdo

[robinreadscomics]

batman & friends reading project

i want to start reviewing single issues of things more, so i figured i might as well start by rewinding a bit & reviewing some of what i've read recently on an issue-by-issue basis. since i'm only a few issues into rereading the knightfall arc of batman, i figured that would be a decent place to start. but before i do that, i should probably talk about what i'm reading & why.

i've been doing this big stupid mass reading/rereading of major batman storylines off & on for like a year now. so far i've read:

batman: year one

the man who laughs

four of a kind

haunted knight

long halloween

dark victory

batman chronicles: the gauntlet

robin: year one

batgirl: year one

tales of the demon

batman confidential: the cat and the bat

teen titans: year one

nightwing: year one

the killing joke

a death in the family

a lonely place of dying

the demon trilogy

robin, vol. 1: reborn

robin, vol. 2: triumphant

and i'm currently on

knightfall

idk if it is clear or not from that list that i'm pretty intentionally focusing on the sidekicks, but yeah, i'm actually more interested in nightwing, robin (shocking, huh?), batgirl, and especially bluebird (when i eventually get to the new 52 era). so, yeah! that's what i'm up to & why, now i'll get to actually reading & reviewing stuff lmao

[vee-crytraps]

Hello, it's me anon obsessed with the arkhamverse again and I just realized that as I read your fic I become more and more convinced that batsis will be able to become truly independent and self-sufficient only if Bruce activates the Knightfall Protocol (guess who finally came out on this ending after idk 10 years.) like the dude will actually have to fake his death and disappear so that our mc had the right to manage her own life🙏🙏 Well I also think that only in such a scenario could she become a vigilante again

That would have kicked things off a lot faster for sure haha

but have no fear! She is due to start making moves soon!

[mikuhats]

now that im finished knightfall idk what to read really like a lot of solo series are starting around where im at (robin,azrael,nightwing) but idk like what to read specifically .... it was so easy to read 1 really long multiple part arc

[a-bad-case-of-the-stephs]

OMG so glad people are talking abt azrael 1995 i have sooo many thoughts about it. Denny O’Neil has worked on so many amazing comics, but Azrael 95 is like his little personal project and there’s so much weird shit that occurs narratively and thematically that makes me wonder abt the guy sometimes.

On the topic of Batman being a POS to Azrael, at least part of that is because O’Neil probably needed to get Azrael out on his own. If he had Batman agree to go with JPV to fight the order of st Dumas, the comic would be Batman, fighting the order of st Dumas, instead of Azrael. But it definitely gets kind of excessive. And it doesn’t explain why he can’t like.. train JPV off “camera” so to speak or in the background or even in a mini. Batman often comes across like he just hates JPV. I personally read this as a consequence of JPV being a reminder of his weakest point in Bruce’s life since his parents died: Batman at his most vulnerable. And also a reminder of his fallacy of judgement w Azbats of course. Also, the ‘lesson’ of Knightfall kind of fails within Azrael: Batman frees JPV to discover his own identity and find himself outside the Batman mantle, he literally lets JPV walk away from the alternative, jail: and JPV ends up in a homeless shelter and spends the rest of Azrael 95 still trying to figure out who he is, never quite succeeding for long. It can be taken as an meta ironic play on the fact that how Batman’s identical lesson he receives from Knightfall continues to be rehashed arc after arc event after event, Bruce never really learns his lesson either: he’s always pushing someone away, he’s always falling too far into the Bat mantle and trying to do everything on his own. Neither ‘learn their lesson’ and so Batmans apparent hatred of JPV could be taken as a disgust and uncomfortableness with this fact.

The whole ‘greatest mistake’ but is so funny to me because because it’s such a common way that Batman referred to JPV and making JPV Batman during Knightfall I literally made a joke drawing when Jason came back to life and Bruce called him his worst mistake instead, with JPV holding a mug that said: “Batman’s Second Worst Mistake”. Would post it but I don’t have it rn unfortunately. Point is you’re so so right.

I really really recommend reading Knightfall by the way, I know it’s like 72 issues but it’s so so good. The BBC Radio Drama is a good substitute tho, a lot of the dialogue is ripped straight from the comics, but it misses a few moments.

JPV could technically return to school, you’re so right, and It’s strange that it doesn’t really come up so much. And I hadn’t really thought about why he doesn’t. Even when he has like his ‘lol I’m going to be normal and not Azrael arc’ I don’t think he talks about returning to grad school. Could be forgetting tho.

A Lot of details about Jean Paul and his “civilian” life make no fucking sense. Idk if youve read NML yet, but a lot of those inconsistencies start to shine through there, which is super strange given I’m pretty sure Denny O’Neil was writing those issues too. Basically, we get indications that JPV never had a “normal” life, despite his computer grad apparent civilian life and pretty average behavior v early on in Sword of Azrael. (Vague bc I’m Trying not to spoil in case you haven’t read the issue I’m thinking of here) Which is so weird. Honestly one of the things I think Rebirth did well was how they retconned these aspects of Azraels character into one clear story which encapsulated them both.

I'm reading the OG run of Azrael (1995) by Denny O'Neil and honestly Batman/Bruce just irks me in a way I really didn't expect. I'm reading issue #36 and my biggest gripe is...why doesn't he teach him?Like legitimately why doesn't he teach him, or atleast send him to someone who could. That just feels so obvious to me.

It's obvious JPV is a danger to himself and others, and it's obvious Bruce's initial plan of just....giving him the mantal without any help and extremely minimal training wouldn't work but even if he says he doesn't blame JPV um????? You sure aren't acting like it???? Seriously that guy needs an ACTUAL therapist (and no, Brian doesn't count when he so obviously needs his own mental help). He is traumatized, extremely repressed, and is being actively manipulated by Lilhy and I'm just.....MAN.

People say Jason is his greatest mistake but honestly I think it might be tied with JPV at this point, bc unlike Jason (I may be wrong, haven't read Under the Red Hood yet), Bruce has so. many. chances. It's so obvious Jean-Paul looks up to him, he wants to do something good and I get he wasn't Bruce's responsibility, but I do think after Bruce took him into vigilanteism he has an obligation to help. He took those lessons to heart and made them vital parts of himself, that he had to help people and he had to go out in order to do that.

Like JPV had a life. He was getting a degree in computer science for christ's sake. Why didn't Bruce just...let him go back to that? (Tbf i may be misinformed on that last part , I did not read the Knightfall saga I listened to the radio drama instead when I found out there was one.) But seriously. He's rich. Just...get him a psychologist and leave him alone.

[bigskydreaming]

That last reblog is very informative and useful in figuring out where to find certain storylines. Purely on a personal recommendation note, for anyone looking for good reads and who tends to like my take on things, my recs from that list (and not saying that others I don’t rec aren’t good, just what immediately popped into my head) would be:

Batman: The Long Halloween (yes. its a good)

Batman: Birth of the Demon (if you want to set canon on fire, as many people are wont to do, a good place to start is aggressively ignoring Morrison’s take on Damian’s birth and origin and instead treating this story as his origin and just building off the idea that Talia lied at the end which is waaaaaaaaay better and just like...go from there)

Batman: The Killing Joke (kill it with the fire. we’ve had enough of the killing joke. it can die. even alan moore hates it and he wrote it and alan moore usually loves everything he writes and hates everyone ELSE for like, liking it the wrong way, so I mean, that should tell you a lot)

Batman: The Cult (holy shit I totally forgot about this story and now am off to go reread it again myself)

I have Issues with how ADITF AND A Lonely Place of Dying play out and most popular takes on them, so like, I’m not like, recommending RECOMMENDING them, but I mean like, they are pivotal.

Batman: Knightfall, Legacy, Cataclysm and all things No Man’s Land related have some good stuff throughout all of them. Like, things I don’t like, sure, but overall, there’s a lot of good material in them. Also, a good way to get a strong sense of actual canon Tim, who is not fanon Tim, and who would probably take one look at fanon Tim and go LOL nerd, and kickflip away on his skateboard to go tell Nightwing about this AU version of himself he just met, as like, he actually likes and respects Nightwing, among other differences.

JLA Tower of Babel (its a yawn from me, lads. the source of pretty much all “Batman can beat all of the JLA because he has the greatest superpower of all: PREP TIME!!!” hot takes and I mean, yeah that’s pretty core to Batman and who he is at this point, but the story itself its just like. Eh. Could you not. Idk. Basically I just mean this is all part of an era of JLA that for the most part I actually tend to LIKE Bruce’s interactions with the rest of the team, but then there was this and it was just like. Eh. Could you not).

Bruce Wayne: Murderer? and Bruce Wayne: Fugitive (Quality reads IMO that emphasize the Detective part of the Batfranchise and contain good moments for the whole currently present Batfam, lots of great Cass and Dick stuff in particular. Idk. I havent read them in awhile but I have fond memories)

Batman: Hush (this gets a bad rep and not entirely deserved IMO. Like, its not the greatest story in the world but I like how it portrays Bruce as having flawed dynamics with a lot of his loved ones but not shying away from his role in that but also without overly vilifying him....he’s an appropriately complex character in this, is what I mean, and I also like that this is another story that emphasizes the often lost-and-forgotten Detective part of his core concept. Also, it utilizes some of my fave villains in ways that bring home how much potential certain combinations/team-ups of villains could have if they were utilized more instead of overlooked in favor of ITS TIME FOR THE JOKER AGAIN WHEEEEEEEE!)

Batman: Under the Red Hood (hahahhahaha no. like could you imagine me reccing this? LOL its not realistic. Nah, stick with the animated movie retelling. At least Bruce doesn’t slit his son’s throat in that one to save the damn clown again)

Batman: R.I.P (I reluctantly rec this not because I like it, cuz I don’t, its Morrison back on his bullshit in a most I AM THE MOST GALAXY BRAINED OF ALL THE GALAXY BRAINED AND ALSO IM A CHAOS MAGICIAN DID U KNOW THAT HUH DID YA DID YA, like, fashion. Its. A lot. The story is A Lot. I don’t say that in a complimentary way. BUT I recommend it anyway out of pure stubbornness and Dick Grayson fanboy spite, as its set like, directly before Bruce is believed dead and gets lost in time, and like, A LOT happens to Dick in that story that SHOULD BE extremely relevant and crucial to examinations of his mental and emotional state at the time of him assuming Bruce’s role in the family and as Batman, but that just like....ISN’T, and that annoys me. Also, the primary villain of this, Dr. Hurt, like.....

his grand endgame involved torturing the fuck out of Dick to hurt Bruce specifically, and pretty much the first thing that happens when Bruce DOES come back from being lost in time is Dr. Hurt pops up out of nowhere and shoots Dick in the head, like FIRST THING, like this is the absolute first thing Bruce has to deal with when coming back, and this is just like....NONEXISTENT in most fics about that era. Because lolol how can we blame Dick for everything that went wrong and make Bruce be mad at him for how Dick wronged Tim and Jason and all of Gotham probably, if we’re going by actual canon and thus dealing with the fact that Bruce is preoccupied with hovering over his just-shot-in-the-head-specifically-to-fuck-with-Bruce son’s bedside and WORRYING about him. LOLOL hashtag Fandom Willfully Erases The Majority of Dick’s Canon Traumas Not Because They Want To Set Canon On Fire - they’re usually fine with sticking to every instance of canon in which Dick does something even in the ZIP CODE of wrong - but rather because if we acknowledge Dick’s traumas then eww, he might come across as....sympathetic? No, we can’t have that. ERGO HE WAS NEVER SHOT IN THE HEAD HAHAHAH WE FIXED IT, WE FIXED CANON).

But I digress.

Battle for the Cowl (another reluctant rec because like, its dumb and its bad, but its one of those things that I’d still rather more people read than didn’t, because like it is pivotal and relevant, and it contains key plot points like oh Idk, Arkham literally blowing up as all the currently locked up inmates escape, which led to Dick having Wayne Enterprises rebuild it himself, and like, the only villains present in it when he was Batman being the villains he and Damian CAUGHT while he was Batman, which did NOT include the Joker, and thus all the hot takes about how Dick locked up Jason two doors down from his murderer like the uncaring bastard that he is, like.....instead of the reality that Dick pulled strings to have Jason put in Arkham instead of Blackgate when the POLICE ARRIVED ON SCENE AND LOCKED UP THE ANONYMOUS RED HOOD BECAUSE HE WAS CLEARLY DEFEATED AND CLEARLY A WANTED CRIMINAL AND THUS LIKE, HIS IMPRISONMENT LITERALLY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH DICK OTHER THAN THE FACT THAT DICK DEFEATED JASON RATHER THAN LETTING HIM KILL HIM AND DAMIAN.....

like, its literal canon that Dick explains himself for having Jason put in Arkham instead of Blackgate because it allowed him to keep Jason OUT of gen pop where he had literal dozens of enemies that he, Jason, WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR PUTTING THEM IN THERE HIMSELF, and it was to keep Jason SAFE, and it WORKED as Jason’s only actual canon complaint at that time was that he was BORED. So in conclusion, AS ALWAYS, you can do what you want, but when you literally manufacture the fake fanon - and completely fail to make any effort to establish that this is NOT actual canon and that you’re not actually riffing off of an actual canon moment - that Dick callously locked his brother up a few doors down from his own murderer (the dude that Dick himself literally once beat to death because he killed Jason).....like, inquiring minds would like to know, why are you trying so hard to make Dick look like THIS MUCH of an asshole, hmm?)

Batman: The Gates of Gotham (a weird, but fun little read IMO, that delves deep into the backstory of Gotham, the Waynes, and also Dick’s ancestors the Crownes, and establishes a lot of the history revolving around all of the above, and like, it actually has Dick as Batman and being competent and respected by the rest of the family in that role, and its also one of the only times Cass and Damian interacted one on one, stuff like that)

Batman and Robin Eternal (eww no, kill it also with the fire, burn it, I hate it, uggggggh why is this series so praised, its so baaaaaaaaaaaad, its like what if literally every character involved in it is an asshole to Dick for no valid reason whatsoever.....huh, weird thought, wonder if the fact that its so praised as being so good and Dick’s so hated for weird reasons by a lot of fandom are connected....almost like.....the fiction influenced how people viewed his character....and thus....critical commentary of how the fiction was bad is....relevant....HMM I MUST PONDER THIS STRANGE AND NOVEL THOUGHT).

[dyketectivecomics]

Okay, with KnightsEnd and the second huntress mini under my belt, let's recap on 90s Gotham so far! (also absolutely FLOORED that i'm already up to '94 at this point ;-; the 90s are flyin by)

Jean-Paul

I know i mentioned it rlly briefly, but it really rubbed me the wrong way how Jean-Paul clearly having DID was being... handled not well in terms of the narrative. There was KIND of a last minute turnaround with the last issue for the KnightsEnd arc (that i guess was supposed to absolve Jean in Bruce/the narrative's eyes? Kind of?) it just... left me feeling very hollow ig

again, mostly I stuck to Knightfall and KnightsEnd, not a whole lot of Bat!Jean in btwn except for the ones that already crossed over with some of the other characters. I dont think I'll be revisiting this period of time for Jean and I've heard it gets better for him in his upcoming solo. i was rlly endeared to his character earlier on, so im holding out hope that this was.... just an odd phase for DC editorial (which seems to be mostly the case from what I've gathered)

Renee & Steph

just stepping in very briefly here to say that Renee is getting pretty regular page time right alongside Bullock. after knightfall its made especially clear and that she's def on Team Batman™, so thats a fun seed to see planted

steph had a very very short team-up again with tim, still spurred by her dad breaking out of prison briefly. dixon is def planting those timsteph seeds and im not super thrilled by how he's choosing to go about it. but i did know that this was going to happen in advance so

clearly i am boo boo the fool *clown emoji*

Helena

uhh, she cameo'd rlly briefly in knightfall! which was cool to see!

team-up with Black Canary was nice to see, but the plot was *screams internally* (yikes). general content warning for a blatantly racist portrayal of arabian people/culture. (considering this was post-desert storm tho, i cant even say that im surprised. just tired and disappointed)

the Huntress mini was a pretty quick read, and i did kind of vibe with the art. it was mostly lineless, had a lot of style, and the shading/shadows for a lot of the scenes were really dynamic and added quite a bit to the overall tone. a nitpick that i have for it tho, is that its pretty clear that dixon didnt do his homework bc the man from helena's past who assaulted her was killed by the same man who helped train her initially. it was major point in the first solo like fjdakl;fld

otherwise, it also... feels pretty obvious to me that dixon isnt comfortable with writing for the character. her emotional state feels a little all over the place/turns on a dime, and i'll give him a LITTLE benefit of the doubt that maybe it could be the limited time that he had for the run... but something about this just... didn't quite feel like Helena to me. idk, isn't gonna be one that i see myself ever revisiting

Tim

Starting off Tim's Robin run right in the middle of the fallout of Knightfall was... an interesting choice. but one that i wont begrudge them too much.

finishing up to issue 9, tho, it feels like a pretty solid start for an on-going. Tim's voice is certainly starting to come clearer & what I def think is helping with that is having one writer mostly focused on him now.

whether or not he'll grow on me tho, remains to be seen, but I can still see why others latch onto him. he's very much still finding his footing with Bruce & with the Robin role. and ultimately, he's wish-fulfillment for the 90s comic nerd teen at this point in his character. he's trying to have it all, being the hero and getting the girl, and so far he's def falling behind in one of those regards (it seems pretty definitive that he and Ariana broke up oof), and scraping by in the other (but after the month/year he's had, i can hardly blame him on that front)

it'll be interesting to see where Tim & Jean's relationship goes now that Jean will be going back to Azrael, and while im sure there will be plenty more bumps in my reading to come, it's nice to have a slightly clearer path now that so many solos will be comprising the majority of my reading

[lysical]

I was introduced to a lot of the Batfamily via the Morrison run. How screwed up is my perception of them? Comics are an effing minefield of characterization—I know, I’m a Hank Pym fan because I ran into him first in one of his highly rare likeable periods. Any tips/recs? It feels like everywhere I go the characters aren’t the “real” ones, and idk where to find these “real” ones. (This goes for Tim too, although you seem understandably down on him lately & might not want to talk Drake anymore

It does vary by character, actually. There are some fundamental things he does that are a bit out of there, and other things that are just plain offensive, but he’s not the absolute worst to come in on, as damned by faint praise as that is. 

Long post ahead

Bruce: Morrison and I fundamentally see the character very differently. He sort of subscribes to some ideas about Bruce as Batman that I just don’t like re: emotions, life, family. He uses a lot of allegories and devices in his work and the depth is there, I just don’t agree with what he was doing and had to say about Batman on a fundamental level. Post-Crisis Bruce is a bit all over the place. A lot of different writers got their hands on him and the dark and gritty post-Jason transformation of the character was intense and permanent. Because of this, coming into Morrison doesn’t really hurt you that much--especially since for a lot of it he’s functionally dead. Maybe check out some runs like Hush (more emphasis on the family), Dark Victory (some young Dick Grayson), Batman: Year One (say what you want about Miller, but it’s a decent book and the atmosphere and art are great for an introduction to the modern character), and then hop over to some of Bruce’s team books. Sometimes characters get distilled well over in their team books compared to their solos (especially since the Bat Department is...weird at times). Maybe check out Superman/Batman, the old team up from the early 2000s. For Bruce it’s just best to cast a wide net and read a variety. JLA: Tower of Babel is a good one to see Batman and the wider superhero community in conflict, which brings in a lot of Batman’s negative aspects in a way that was decently balanced and didn’t villainize him via narrative even as the characters might have felt that way about him (Young Justice certainly did XD), but I havent’ read it in a long time so ymmv. 

Dick: One of the few characters that didn’t get that bad a hand by Morrison, or too much of a characterization shift (his character shift had happened during the Chuck Dixon and Devin Grayson period, although the latter more than the former). Unlike new 52 onwards, while he was softened a little to pair effectively with Damian, it wasn’t too much as we saw at times later and how fandom kind of tends to portray them (’Shut the hell up, Damian’ comes to mind). The Dickbats run was a nice change and development for Dick, a natural progression. The things that were sort of tweaked to create conflict with that transition (Dick not wanting Batman, some characterization behind that) were pre-Morrision, during Battle for the Cowl and the setup to Morrison, so while they follow on from that they’re mostly absent from the run. For the modern Robin Dick stories, go for Teen Titans: Year One, Dark Victory, Batman: Year Three, a couple of the other year ones are decent, although some incorporate those characterization shifts, but that’s comics. I’d go back to New Teen Titans (starts in Pre-Crisis, goes into Post, but the book doesn’t have a huge change due to the crisis and it’s just a really good run, deserving of being the benemoth during that time period that it was) to get the best of Dick on a team, then maybe check out Prodigal (follows on from Knightfall, Dick’s first run as Batman), skip Nightwing: Year One (it’s got tiny amounts of Dick and Jason bonding but Dixon ripped everything else about Dick’s early Nightwing period to shreds). From there, depends if you want his solo or his team stuff, he’s a pretty easy character to follow. I like to start chronologically with him because then you see the shifts happen as he falls back under control of the bat-books, and his solo and team stuff have some interesting contrasts (I lean towards his team stuff generally because Dick has always been about that for me, rather than running solo). 

Babs: Birds of Prey is her essential stuff, I don’t think Morrison really did that much with her but my memories of it all are a bit vague now. I’d personally take anything when she’s romantically involved with Dick with a grain of salt, that relationship was a bit of a disaster and they both do terrible things to each other (I believe the one responsible for it all is Devin again but it’s been a while since i visited that train wreck) and there’s some victim-blaming that happens that’s not so good. I prefer Oracle having a bit of distance from the Batfam, as she’s just surpassed being someone who is under Batman’s authority and is just crucial to the entire operation of the superhero community in general, so Bird s of Prey. 

Jason: Hnng. Here’s where Morrison really just decided to throw away established DC continuity and try his hand at a bunch of crap that fell completely flat. Just toss it and purge, tbh. Winick got Jason back late in the run but it was too late for that. Maybe there are tiny aspects of characterization that aren’t bad (Pride and Prejudice) but Morrison misunderstood Jason on a much more fundamental level. Also the red hair was probably some attempt to make a witty visual pun and add ‘depth’ but there are so many problems with it. Continuity-wise it makes so sense with how pre-crisis and post- worked, particularly for Jason, and additionally Morrison is realllllly wishy-washy with his ‘EVERYTHING IS CANON’ stuff that it rings false, plus in Pre-Crisis he was like...blonde I don’t understand. The implications of Jason being forced to dye his hair are absolutely disgusting for Bruce and go back into that fundamental problem I have with how Morrison sees Bruce. Jason, Post-resurrection suffers a lot of DC writers not knowing what to do and unloading a lot of DC’s baggage and some unconscious, problematic tropes onto him. Read his Post-Crisis origin (Batman 408 on, there’s the origin and some issues after set up by his original Post-Crisis writer Max Collins) and maybe all his Post-Crisis, pre-Death stuff since there’s honestly not a lot and it’s fairly obvious when Starlin starts pushing for his death. For post-resurrection, Under the Red Hood, Lost Days (it goes off the rails at the end, so I only half rec it honestly), Outsiders 44 and 45, Countdown (but only if you’re skipping the plot and just reading the Jason (&Donna &Kyle) bits, it’s one of the most even-handed treatments he actually gets in Post-Crisis but the book is otherwise terrible). Then just go straight to RHatO Rebirth. 

Tim: Ignore new 52 and Rebirth entirely. Red Robin is a book a lot of Tim fans really like but I personally think it’s bad in general and also don’t like what the writer does with Tim, but ymmv. Tim’s origin is also pretty weak and his initial mini and series aren’t that great at establishing him as a proper character outside ‘this kid is Robin pls like him we want to get away from the controversy of the last one’ so it’s hard to connect with him there without nostalgia glasses. By Knightfall (1994ish) on, that’s where he’s more of a character himself, and his stuff from about then through to the early 2000s is the best (before Geoff Johns got him in Teen Titans and Didio started doing Things, which basically led us to today to be honest). Personally, I think Tim functions best in a team, there are aspects of what his writers do in his solo where they just...missed the implications and it kind of grates on me. His stand out book imo is Young Justice (the og comic not the cartoon which only shares the name and nothing else tbh). 

Steph: Another who actually got treated decently well during the Morrison-era, as opposed to the crap she was dealt earlier during her time as Robin and War Games. Steph’s Batgirl run is something I definitely recommend, and her stuff with Dick and Damian in Morrison’s era is contemporary with that. Her origin is actually really good and compelling, so I’d dig into that (TEC 647, i think, is her first appearance). She kind of just revolves around Tim during his run and their relationship is kind of...there are implications there that are a bit cringe. Her stuff with Cass on the other hand is really enjoyable so I’d recommend those. Her brief Robin run is decent if melancholy considering what we know happens, and I wouldn’t touch War Games with a ten foot pole. 

Cass: Shafted from the mid-2000s on, tbh. She got a bit blessed with a solid creative team to start her off in her Batgirl run, it attempts some pretty deep and interesting explorations of her character that while not perfectly executed are still really good comics. I’d just read her No Man’s Land stuff, follow her book and stuff with Steph and pretty much just ditch out when One Year Later hits. Her Black Bat outfit is cool and there is some retroactive backpedalling by DC to justify shafting her but it’s all Morrison era anyway so you might be familiar already. 

Damian: Morrison created him and he took a lot of liberties with that backstory which unfortunately have had a lasting impact for Talia, which is frustrating. As Damian’s creator, what you see is what you get. Morrison didn’t want him to be likeable and he also didn’t really want him to be permanent (ties in again to how Morrison sees Bruce and family tbh), other writers gave Damian development later, but despite being around for over a decade now, there is still a lot of push and pull between writers about his characterization and development. It’s unfortunate but there’s a noticeable lack of consistency with Damian and his development that is frustrating to read. Probably read Tomasi’s stuff if you want Damian’s softened, developed arc and avoid other stuff. I’m not the best for Damian because most of his stuff is during the new 52 which I wasn’t around for and am picking through only occasionally. 

Hope this helps. 

[havendance]

Hi! I love your writing and it's always a treat to see what WIPs your working on. As someone who struggles to write longer, more complex fics, I'd love to know more about your writing process if you're open to talking about it.

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoy them!

For me, writing longer fics was definitely something that I had to work up. When I was starting out writing I still got ideas for longer fics, I just struggled to execute them. I've got a few that I know I'm just not going to finish. A few things that really helped me to write longer works are:

1) Getting a regular writing habit. I know this is really common advice, but I needed to build up my writing stamina. I still wouldn't say I'm a super quick writer. Long fics take me time to write, but I know I'm able to commit to writing something longer and am more confident in my ability to successfully keep to a project.

And then like I said at the begining, this was something I had to work up to. I'd been writing fic for years by the time I finally finished my first multi-chapter fic idea. And then, it was only 4 chapters (and they weren't monster sized chapters like Batman for Dummies), but that gave me to confidence to start larger stories.

2) I know that I need to have a plan for a story if I want it to succeed. I need to know how it'll end. I've got a fic that's going to stay unfinished with 4 out 5 chapters because I just didn't know how to end it and I've since moved on from the fandom. I don't need to have everything figured out, but for me, knowing the conclusion is important. For example, in Batman for Dummies, I knew from the beginning (okay well, once I'd finished reading No Man's Land and started doing serious planning beyond, 'uh, idk they team up, this will totally be a one shot') that I wanted to end with Tim and Helena on New Years Eve and Tim saying 'you could keep being the Bat, if you want to' and Helena saying. And a lot of stuff changed by the time I got there! But having that destination in mind helped me.

In general, for really short fics, I don't really do much planning at all, I just go because I can hold the whole shape of it in my head. For one-shots I'll plan it out scene by scene and then write. For multi-chapter fics, I try to have the major beats and shape of the plot laid out. And then, as I write each chapter, I'll break things down further. Often when I'm writing, things emerge and change and then I'll go back to my overall outline and update it. Personally, I can't break down a whole long fic in-depth before I start writing. I've got to do it in increments. So my first outlines are typically really detailed for the first bits and then vaguer as they go on.

Most of the longer fics I've finished so far have had a limited number of chapters which means that I've gone in with a strong opinion on where those chapter breaks needed to go. With Batman for Dummies, I knew I wanted 4 chapters that roughly corresponded to the four seasons and also it fit nicely with the fact that I'd read No Man's Land in four volumes. The other longer fic I've completed for Batman recently, The King is Dead, Long Live the King, was also one where I had a very clear idea on how many chapters it needed. It was conceived in three parts, and while I briefly entertained the idea of breaking it into two chapters, I knew it wouldn't work that way.

So far, I have yet to succeed in writing a fic that needs more than a handful of chapters. (I tried nanowrimo a couple times and I started cowriting an epic for the Owl House with my bro.) In those cases, a lot of the time, I broke down plot beats in a more episodic manner and then broke those up into chapters. Almost like mini-arcs. Most of the time, I've just run out of steam before I can make it all the way through (for the fic I was co-writing with my bro, we both got writers block at the same time and never came back), but some day I believe I'll succeed! (Some day I will return to Knightfall once I get the big beats and arcs for that fic laid out.)

I think the final piece of advice I would have is don't be afraid to jump around between projects. Whenever I got to the end of a chapter of Batman for Dummies, I was always like 'man, I need to do something else' because they were long and it took a lot out of me. Jumping between projects gives me time to get out of the funk that I can get into when I spend a lot of time and energy on one idea and then I can come back and get all re-enthused when I come back around to it.

And of course, this might not work for you, but hopefully there's something in here that can help you as you try and write longer things! I wish you luck! I'm still working away at that journey myself :)

[roobylavender]

Thoughts on Jean-Paul Valley? If you've read anything on him that is.

he was what made reading knightfall so hard for me tbh like i thought he was so boring 😭 i do get the point that was trying to be made with his character in terms of excess in vigilantism but at the same time i don’t know that that point was quite carried to its conclusion bc the focus shifted so abruptly to setting up bruce’s return. that’s how i feel about a lot of 90s batman plots like they start somewhere but they don’t actually progress all they do is tear the world down and return it to its status quo. maybe i would like him more if that point actually felt fleshed out (but admittedly my batman reading peters off towards the late 90s so idk what his involvement was like in the future)