#I want Ody to kill Antinous so bad

[letsplaythermalnuclearwar]

imagine having 108 men living in your house, abusing your son, and making horribly gross comments to and about you

I truly believe the most romantic possible thing would be for your husband to kill them all

[onlymimiwastaken]

In the warrior Penelope AU, Does Odysseus have to deal with Antonius and the other suitors while his wife’s away? Also how would the challenge go in this AU?

hii, tysm for the interesting question! I'll explain how it goes in my version of the AU below!

Basically, yes, Odysseus still has to deal with the Suitors and Antinous, but with different circumstances to fit the whole thing better.

The Suitors aren't at Ithaca because a king can't rule without a queen, but because Odysseus can't rule without Penelope. They are a team, Odysseus doesn't do it all alone, he knows how smart she is. So without Penelope, the kingdom is crumbling, because half things aren't getting done and the other is neglected by a man who is depressed without his wife. The Suitors go to Ithaca to take over, but it's not that they want to marry Ody (not that they can, though I like to imagine Antinous as a close minded bi man and the Suitors as the LeFou to his Gaston), but rather, they want to be nominated sort of his advisors, someone really close to Odysseus to "help him", to then kill him secretly.

This is where Athena comes in. Athena is there at Ithaca, always has been, to do her best to help Odysseus and buy time. But she's disguised as , guess who, Mentor! Remember him from the myth? Odysseus said that once Mentor is finished weaving, he will choose a suitor, but Mentor is never done weaving. He's the goddess of weaving herself making her secret plan work. Also, Mentor just never fucking dies in 20 years and that's suspicious to the Suitors, since he's not really young. They wait for him to die and he never does, and to that Mentor claims that it's the "will of the gods, probably". Telemachus doesn't know that the man who grew him together with his dad is a goddess.

Now, the challenge. In EPIC (unless Jay changes it but from the snippet it's this), it's "whoever can string my husband's old bow, and shoot through twelve axes cleanly, will be the new king...". In this AU, it's basically the same, since one of Penelope's weapons is the bow. The Suitors are a bit weirded out, because how could a woman be that strong right, but they accept because they think it's too easy. Until Penelope disguised as a man comes and does it better than them. Another way I could twist it up is to make it a weaving challenge instead, and make the Suitors super bad at it because they are warriors, but I feel like we have the weaving theme already and something different is better!

This is my idea for now. Subject to change, like always. If you have any other ideas or want to share your own things, I'd be happy to hear 🫶

[merp-blerp]

TW: Discussion of sexual assault and suicidal ideation

I've been seeing some debate about Calypso and whether or not she sexually assaulted Odysseus and I want to throw in my two cents.

I'll say straight out of the gate that I don't currently like her much. I feel pretty icky about her personally.

Comparing Ody's behavior in Epic prior to "Love in Paradise" vs during the song feels so... clearly different. He seems very traumatized by whatever has been happening on that isle. It almost feels out of character for him to consider dying instead of fighting to get home alive like he had been, but putting myself in his shoes I can see how he came to that through what's textually known. He has been trapped on that isle for 7 years—that's nearly a decade, with no way to get out, everyone he knows and loves dead or far away with no way to know where he is or if he's alive. While I obviously would never think that's a good decision, I can see how he got to the point of wanting to end it. And if he's been sexually assaulted like he was in The Odyssey, I understand it more due to how that can warp a person's mental health.

I've seen some say, "Calypso is just a sweetie who doesn't know how to love properly" (paraphrasing of an actual comment I've seen). Even if she really just doesn't know how to care for a mortal, as many of the gods seemingly don't, I think she understands her power over mortals with her "Bow down now to the immortal Calypso" comment. She also understands that Odysseus doesn't want her, with the first part of her response to Ody's threats being "Oh handsome, you may try". She knows that he may try to escape by killing her (even though she can't die). Honestly, why would she feel the need to trap him if she didn't know good and well that he would want to escape her? She knew what she was doing was something that would make him want to run. Calypso being a goddess automatically gives their dynamic a power imbalance of course. Even though the assault is only implied, the fact that she's trapping Ody against his will, super infatuated by him, and still says "Soon, into bed we'll climb and spend our time", makes me feel like the indication is clear. What's stopping her from trying to have "sex" with him (sex isn't sex without consent)? She's already ignored all his declines. She seems to think that forcing her "love" onto him will make him love her. Yes, she uses lovey-dovey language so I doubt it would've appeared violent, but sexual assault doesn't have to look violent and the perpetrator doesn't have to appear aggressive. It's telling that I've seen some say, "Save that energy for Antinous" because Antinous is much more obviously bad, but this kind of thing isn't always obvious. That kind of assault is still extremely traumatizing whether it's sugarcoated as if it's love or not. It's dismaying that some reactions to Calypso bypass her potential assaulting or "She's weird, but she seems to care for him!" And since the sexual part of the assault is technically subtext (for now, who knows about later), I'll say that even if Calypso didn't sexually harm him, she still forces physical and verbal intimacy onto him and traps him so he can't leave. We see that. That's still assault. The only reason why I don't feel similarly about Epic's version of Circe is that her intent wasn't to have sex with Ody but to distract and throw him off with talk of sex so she could stab him as he's vulnerable; Circe never wanted to have sex with Ody in actuality. Calypso's intent was romantic intimacy and she didn't care if Odysseus said no, she completely bypassed it. Calypso saying "You're mine, all mine" feels as threatening as Circe's "I've got you" was meant to be.

Anything can change between now and the next two sagas. It could either be fully confirmed or denied that sexual assault took place. I actually don't expect either, as I don't think Jay would go too deep into such a traumatic concept in Epic, but then again I also didn't expect suicidal ideation to be brought up at all and it absolutely shocked me when it was, so I could be wrong. But whether it's confirmed or not, I don't blame any Epic fans who don't like Calypso or even hate her over what she did and what it's implied she did. It's icky watching some fans tell others they shouldn't hate Calypso because of this or that as if this isn't a sensitive and complex topic. It's creepy. I don't think we should tell people not to hate a character associated with sexual assault. The sexual assault might be subtext, but subtext is important and sometimes is implemented intentionally. Not every part of a story is going to be given to you at face value. Just because "Epic didn't say that" doesn't mean that the implication doesn't matter. People interact with stories in different ways, so you can disagree with others—no one can take that from you, but you don't get to tell someone they can't feel a certain way about a character. I don't like saying this because I really shouldn't have to put it in this perspective for it to be understood, but I can't help but feel like if Calypso and Ody's genders were swapped some people would treat this implication differently. Sexually or not she hurts him.

Normally I don't like taking lore from The Odyssey and automatically applying it to Epic, as Epic has changed a lot of rules from The Odyssey because Jay wants to tell this story his own story. For example, I personally choose not to assume Eury and Ody are brothers-in-law in Epic like they are in The Odyssey because that hasn't been stated in Epic so far. But to me, the implications of Ody's sexual assault are there enough for me personally to think that it might take place in both stories. Jay seems to want Epic to be accessible to many people, so it doesn't surprise me that this element of The Odyssey was brought up in a more subtextual/"hinted at" way.

Calypso is a very interesting character, maybe the most out of all the Epic antagonists so far for me, but we don't have to think of her as not doing anything wrong in order to enjoy that character, her songs, her cute physical character design, or Barbara Wangui's beautiful voice.

[The remainder of this post contains potential spoilers for the unreleased (to date) Vengeance Saga under the cut]

[Edit: Now complete with some post-Vengeance Saga release points]

Another defense of Calypso I've seen is that in the snippets for "I'm Not Sorry for Loving You", Ody says he loves Calypso, but not in the way she wants him to. This could mean they're friends and therefore doubt about the sexual assault could be cast.

It's hard to assess this because the saga's not out yet, but it's worth remembering that abuse can come out of care, in a complicated way. You can care for someone so much you end up hurting them, usually out of wanting to control them. Calypso seems to fit that concept. And most Epic snippets don't give full context, naturally, so who knows why Ody says this at the moment. Maybe he means it, or maybe he's bluffing to guarantee he'll get what he wants (which is to be set free in this instance), like when meeting Athena, or to appease a god, like when "apologizing" to Poseidon in "Ruthlessness". And of course, victims don't have to hate their perpetrators if they choose not to. Odysseus can care about Calypso and she can still have hurt him really badly. Both of these things can be true.

The way I read it, Calypso doesn't love Odysseus like she thinks she does. She's infatuated by him and cares for him enough to not be obviously cold like all the other obstacles Ody faced initially are. She declares that she loves him as soon as he wakes up on her isle without knowing him at all. She didn't even know his name. The washed-up person on her isle could've been anyone and she likely would've "loved" them. Calypso only loves Ody because he stops her loneliness, not for who he is. When she begins to state that she loves him she doesn't even know him. Over the 7 years, she seems to have potentially gotten to know him a bit, saying "I know your life's been hard", but Odysseus himself asserts that she doesn't really know what he's been through. You can call someone (against their will, let me remind you) "my dear, my love for life" all you want, but that doesn't mean you love them. Ody's her first companion in years if not ever, of course she cares for him on a basic level. She won't kill him or let him jump off a cliff. But she doesn't love him or treat him like a human and obey his boundaries and wants. She treats him like an object or pet she owns and has to guard.

In "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You" Calypso says that Ody is all she's ever known because she was abandoned. It's understandable that she would latch onto a living creature after being alone for so long. But that's not necessarily love, at least not to me. If I love someone I wouldn't bypass their refusal to do something. And I wouldn't trap them with me and not let them go, even when they're about to jump off a cliff because they see no way out. I'm not sure if Calypso means to bring malice, she at least says she "bring(s) no pain", but she does regardless or if she intends to. Calypso hasn't had anyone in her company, let alone someone to love, for so long, maybe in her whole life. That's why she doesn't know what love is, so of course when she catches fickle feelings for Odysseus she assumes that's love and has no clue what to do with her "love", as she admits in "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You". Calypso's actions are understandable, but that doesn't mean they're excusable or not abusive. What she does to him is understandable, but selfish and only serves herself, which isn't what you do to someone you love. Note that the way I use understandable here does not equate to forgivable, it just means conceivable. And her apology to him really waters down the magnitude of her actions, saying she "pushed" him, "came on too strong", and that her love might've been "too much" for Ody.

I apologize for this being such a long rant, but I wanted to cover all the excuses for Calypso I'd seen and speak my mind on why I think they're misguided at best.

Post-Vengeance Saga Edits:

Now that The Vengeance Saga has been released, I can comfortably say that I still don't like Calypso, and I think this saga just encourages me to do that. I wasn't anticipating the entirety of "I'm Not Sorry for Loving You" to basically have been featured in the snippets. I was expecting the official song to give more context, maybe showcasing Ody and Calypso having a dialogue, but no! That was really it. And I'm honestly happy for it. It seems like the show recognizes that Calypso is in the wrong, with the way we aren't meant to really ruminate on Ody leaving her. The excuse I talked about above using the theory that Calypso and Odysseus would turn out to have been friends because he said he loved her? I just don't think that held much water by release. I particularly want to point out the way @gigizetz drew Ody's face as he leaves in the commissioned animatic from Jay's stream:

While I can't say for certain that he doesn't mean the "I love you" in some way... he doesn't look like he means it to me. There's no lovey-softness in his eyes, like you might have when you look at your friends when saying I love you. He looks beaten down. Tired. Above, I proposed that Ody might just be blowing smoke to further get what he wants from her. I don't think there's quite enough insight for me to say I was necessarily right on that, but Ody doesn't actually appear that attached to her, certainly not enough so for me to confidently say that I think his "I love you" is genuine. He doesn't even look like he'll miss her, he looks beyond ready to go as she shouts, not pained by her tears. Honestly, Ody might've just said that so she'd stop talking so he could leave. Now there is one more saga left, so maybe he'll wistfully mention or remember her, but I'm not really expecting it based on the official visuals that Jay okay'd. Humbly, I'll say that I don't think Odysseus feels much for Calypso. We don't get happy moments of them together and not even a proper goodbye filled with mutual pain. We just get her backwards apology that basically says, "Sorry I hurt you, but not fully. Shut up and let me talk about me and justify why I trapped you. Wish you'd stop rejecting me despite the fact that I've hurt you. Let me shout that I hate that I fell for you—only because this hurt me unlike I wanted when I kidnapped you—who cares if it hurt you." This moment is not at all a redemption for Calypso. It's her downfall. Her negative character arc. She didn't want to be alone so bad she trapped a person against his will and now she is alone forever (in this show). She can't even have Ody as a friend (and she won't accept purely his friendship anyway based on how the song ends). Who knows how different things would've been if she had just been more... normal when he washed up on her isle? The situation was tragic for them both in different ways, but I'm not sorry for Calypso. Calypso is so interesting as a character. Side-lining her actions just bards us from being able to assess her.

[spineless-lobster]

Fuck me okay it’s 12:50 and I have to wake up early for work tomorrow but I don’t give a shit HERE ARE MY INCOHERENT THOUGHTS ABOUT THE WISDOM SAGA

Legendary:

- TELEMACHUS IS SO ADORABLE OH MY GOD I LOVE HIM SO MUCH!!!

- FULL SPEED AHEAD!!!!

- ARGOS!!!! ARGOS MY BELOVED!!!!!

- bro just wants to see his dad is that so bad?

- WATCHU GONNA DO ABOUT IT CHAMP?????

Little wolf:

- AS MUCH AS A BANGER AS I THOUGHT IT WAS!!!!

- Antinous is such an asshole I love him “your mom’s a slut your dad left you and I’m gonna beat the shit out of you now”

- TELEMACHUS IS SO CUTE!!! Athena does quick thought and he’s like “WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPENING????” and when athena explains it all he’s oh “wait this is sick as hell!!!!” I love him your honour

- Rip telemachus still got your ass beat womp womp

We’ll be fine:

- THEY’RE BESTIES!!!!!! ATHENA AND TELEMACHUS ARE BESTIES WOOOOOO!!!!!!

- “I had a friend like you once” that reminds of how in the odyssey EVERYONE is like “wow telemachus you look just like your dad lol”

- they’re such cute besties I sure hope nothing bad happens to either of them! 😁

Love in paradise: (what the fuck)

- NAW WHEN ATHENA DID TIME DIVE AND ALL THE MUSIC PLAYED SUPER FAST ARE YOU BEING FOR REAL RIGHT NOW?????

- “Who’s penelope? 🥰” “my wife 😔” “😐”

- You can’t kill a goddess! *stream fucking dies*

- “I’m not your man” as “I’m just a man” what if I threw up

- y’know if calypso didn’t imprison odysseus on his island and harass him all the time I think I would like her

- also her voice is beautiful!

- NOT HER CALLING HIM ODY YOU CANT CALL HIM THAT!!!!!

- ody at the edge of the cliff… this part fucked me up

- SHE SAYS OPEN ARMS!!!! YOU CANT SAY THAT!!!

- POLITES!!!!!! 😭😭😭

- ALSJGLJSKFLFNGLSJFLSHDKSHDLSHDLAHDLSHDLSJGLSHDLSHDLSJFLSKDKDK ALL OF THE MOTIFS ALL AT ONCE WHAT THE FUCK NO NO YOU CANT DO THAT YOU CANT FUCKING DO THAT!!!!! STOP FUCKING STOP RIGHT NOW

- what if I killed myself then what

- jay when I find you it’s on sight

- straight up if I imagine ody’s pain for too long I get so incredibly sad it’s not even funny

- FREE MY MAN ODYSSEUS HE DID ALL THAT BAD SHIT BUT I DON’T CARE!!!!!

God games:

- LETS GOOOOO ANOTHER FUCKING BOOPPPP!!!!!!!

- APOLLO!!!!! <333

- I love songs with clanky bits like heph’s part it makes me :DDD

- Aphrodite’s voice is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>

- Ares’ flow is so insane I have it stuck in my head I love it

- beat the shit out of your brother athena lets goooo!!!!!

- HERA!!!!!! 🪩🕺🪩🕺🪩🕺🪩🕺

- GROOVY!!!!!!!

- “He never once cheated on his wife!” “…release him.”

- BEAST MODE ZEUS HOLY SHIT BEAST MODE ZEUS!!!!!!!

- SERIOUSLY THATS THE SICKEST THING EVER LUKE HOLT’S VOICE IS KN ANOTHER FUCKING LEVEL!!!!!!!

- TEAGAN’S VOICE TOO HOLY SHIT THIS SONG DEFINITELY HAS THE BEST VOCAL PERFORMANCES!!!!!!

- SHE CAN’T BE DEAD YOU CAN’T KILL A GODDESS SHE’S JUST TIRED SHE’S JUST SLEEPING!!!! EVERYTHING IS FINE!!!!!

…anyways so if you guys don’t hear from me it’s because I’ve run away to an isolated convent and have dedicated my life to god

Fuck what a good saga this was

[wishingtoflylikeabirdinthesky]

WISDOM SAGA THOUGHTS

Legendary

Omg Mico is the PERFECT Telemachus! He is such a Disney princess and it is perfect! I am vibing in the first half and then we get MAMAS BOY ACTIVATE which I love for him, Penelope got her boy drinking that respect women juice 100%

And ohhhhh Antinous might be the most scary villian. "Let us in her room" alone is the creepiest line I can't

Little Wolf

My gods I have been WAITING for this song since Cyclops saga and its here!!! Ahhh the animatic was amazing and again Antinous is the Scariest Villian Ever. And ATHENA ATHENA BADASS IN THE ARENA sweeping in and helping Telemachus not die!! Bonding!! I love the contrast between Antinous saying little wolf and Athena's little wolf. Antinous is taunting our boy but Athena is looking after the mini version of her bff!! It's perfect 10/10 no notes.

We'll Be Fine

Oh baby this made me FEEL

Again we have Bonding and we love Bonding. Athena calls Ody her friend 🫠 I'm fine. I fine!

And Telemachus doesn't know who she's talking about!! I love them being friends and love Athena looking after Odysseus's boy for him.

This song is my new favorite hands down and i want this in my veins direct to my heart

Love In Paradise

Ooooh BOY this was rough one

First of all, I survived the great live stream shutdown and all I got was this lousy t-shirt

Time Dive, perfect no notes we love a recap

Calypso my gods I have complicated feelings about you. You are so deeply creepy but also sickly sweet. I'm gonna need time to dissect you

And oh the cliff scene. The cliff scene. I... I did not see this coming. And it hurt and it hurt bad .I dont know what part hurt the most. Probably the whole being triggered by Calypso saying open arms . That hurt big.

He called for Athena. The last thing he clung to as he was literally on the edge of a cliff was his connection to Athena. Who he hasn't seen for years and he still reaches for her. He still trusts her.

I am Not Ok.

God Games

And we are back having fun!! (for now)

What can I say? This is hype. All the performers are great!! (Shout out to Mr. Jalapeno Sr. playing Hephaestus, we love you!!!) Athena fighting for Odysseus is such a good expression of how much she cares about him. He really is her best friend and this shows that.

Tied off with the end. Oh the ending.

I am fully convinced Athena isn't dead. I think she's hurt but I don't think she's dead. I'm 78% sure she helps during the fight with the suitors and it would also be waaaaaaaaaaay too mean to Ody to kill her now.

Am I being dululu? Maybe. But I'm ok with that.

FINAL THOUGHTS

this was so good. Telemachus my baby you are my new favorite character. Athena you have my whole heart and I love you and please please please don't be dead

I want Ody to be ok and not be sad.

10/10 I love this and need more pls