#I love Rong Jiu

[snakeboibot]

Rong Jiu Apologia

Looking at Rong Jiu’s motivations you have to keep in mind his power and trauma.

When we meet Rong Jiu he is enslaved. He later gives 16 as the age when he was sex trafficked, but we don’t know who sold him, whether it was his parents out of desperation, traffickers (he looks like two known beauty feasts so it’s entirely possible his family carried the recessive genes for it but didn’t receive the tears or the power, but that would put them at risk of people trying to check), or from another slaver where he had been in non-sexual slavery as a child.

None of these are good options and all of them would leave him emotionally scarred and unwilling to trust anyone too much.

His first client (who he did not choose, because, again this is trafficking not voluntary sex work), when he was only 16, was a 50 year old cultivator. He brings this up as a significant source of trauma.

That formative pain inflicted by someone in a job that everyone says is meant to protect common people would give him a deep dislike of people in said job, like Mo Ran and Chu Wanning. All Cultivators are Bastards in his mind after that.

He very clearly wants to buy his own freedom and does not want to end up in debt to anyone else. When offered freedom and security by Chang Da in exchange for murdering Mo Ran, Rong Jiu fights him on it.

We know this because, in the underworld, he says he regrets “not listening to Chang Da” but also because in 0.5verse Rong Jiu did manage to get the jump on Mo Ran and he stole his core rather than killing him.

Painful? Yes. But considering the fact that Taxian-jun was not the one who kiIIed him it’s likely that 0.5 Rong Jiu died as the sacrifice starting the heavenly rift too.

In both lifetimes he perished because he protected Mo Ran.

This is probably because he actually liked Mo Ran. Compared to who he usually thinks of as his clients, Mo Ran is young, kind, doting, and doesn’t actively try to humiliate him. He’s not stupid enough to be fooled by Mo Ran’s empty, doting, words.

He knows Mo Ran never loved him, but he shows a tendency to willfully ignore his better judgement in order to pretend his situation is better than it is.

For his trouble, risking himself by getting in between two powerful men and trying to convince them to settle for non-lethal options, Rong Jiu winds up in the situation we see in chapter 2.

He is sexually assaulted (the most generous interpretation of chapter 2 is that he consented to compensated sex and then was not paid, a violation of his consent), he wakes up bleeding from his face (impressing upon him just how vulnerable he always was with MR), and all the money he’d collected to buy his freedom is gone.

Now he is truly desperate, he can’t do anything to fix the assault, or the pain at being attacked by someone he’d told himself might like him, but if he doesn’t fight he will have to go through who knows how many more years of working before he can escape exploitation.

So instead of dealing with his fresh trauma he pushes it aside and calls on the one person he thinks will understand the Mo Ran situation, Chang Da.

Chang Da and Rong Jiu walk up the mountain fast enough that they beat Mo Ran there (Rong Jiu probably in physical pain from being abused and we know those stairs are hard if you don’t have cultivation).

Chang Da makes him feel supported and less alone, like he’s fighting for him, something Rong Jiu will only realize is hollow later.

They spend hours being sassed and disrespected by Xue Meng, and with Madam Wang clearly uncomfortable at the idea of a sex worker being in her presence. She won’t even acknowledge the full list of Rong Jiu’s allegations, much less try to get justice for them.

When Mo Ran arrives he lies even about knowing Rong Jiu, insults him for being feminine, insults him for being a sex worker, when just the night before he’d been whispering sweet nothings in Rong Jiu’s ears. Rong Jiu is openly hurt by this but no one cares.

Xue Meng is so annoyed by Rong Jiu crying that he sees what Mo Ran did and helps Mo Ran hide his guilt. Rong Jiu is perceptive and Xue Meng isn’t subtle, he wouldn’t have missed that.

So now we have institutional injustice done to him because people in power over him are siding together rather than holding each other accountable.

He goes back down to the brothel, thinking that he has two choices, risk his life running, or relive the trauma of his teen years, this time disheartened and unsure whether it will come to anything in the end.

Unsurprisingly he runs. Goes to Chang Da, the only person who’d believed him and fought for him, only to find a locked door. He gets dragged back, locked up, and “tormented”, still believing that Chang Da liked him. Chang Da was in fact making him even more desperate so that he would have no option but to depend on him. Eventually, Chang Da helps Rong Jiu escape his imprisonment, only to lead him to the altar to be sacrificed.

No one had ever been genuinely good to him. He had forced himself to believe he was receiving kindness because ultimately he and Taxian-Jun are the same. Both will chase any scrap of kindness given to them or that they can wring out of people.

The difference being that Mo Ran actually receives some, his mother definitely loved him, his uncle treats him well, he has a martial brother who is gentle with him. Rong Jiu has none of that. He doesn’t even believe he CAN have any of that because he is in such a bad situation.

By the time he gets to the underworld he is changed. He is kicking himself for trusting Chang Da, kicking himself for choosing Mo Ran’s life over his own, and determined that this time things will be different. He’s got a plan but suddenly Mo Ran shows up and starts moralizing.

Mo Ran breaks through his walls with the very simple act of apologizing. They’re just words, but no one has ever said them to him before. In that moment Rong Jiu regrets not being more vulnerable with this man who had assaulted him. Rong Jiu blames himself for his own attack.

Note that he isn’t vengeful. He’s kinder than I would be if confronted by someone who had hurt me like that. He tells the guards about Mo Ran, but he just does it to try and look out for himself. He is done with taking care of men more powerful than him, he just wants out.

He meets up with Mo Ran again and the apologies are gone. Mo Ran threatens to gouge out his eyes and throw him in a well to rot for eight years. Clearly Mo Ran isn’t going to believe that Rong Jiu won’t tell on him again, he doesn’t actually have a choice but to follow.

Now Chu Wanning is an interesting case. Rong Jiu and Chu Wanning haven’t met before but Chu Wanning has wielded the power of life and death over him. And he has a chance to get Rong Jiu to take their side.

Rong Jiu demonstrates enough knowledge of the inner workings of Sisheng sect that he definitely knows about the Yuheng elder and his lasso of truth. He might even have heard about Mo Ran’s public whipping.

Essentially, Chu Wanning had the power to know what Mo Ran had done and to make him return what he stole, but he chose not to.

Now Rong Jiu can see in Chu Wanning’s eyes that the reason he hadn’t made his student return the money is that he was horny for him. A cultivator so lustful for a teenager that he forgets to think about the consequences of his actions? Well, that tracks with Rong Jiu’s experience of older cultivators.

All Cultivators Are Bastards. They either commit the abuses or allow the abuses to continue without doing the kinds of justice that the victims want done.

Rong Jiu never asked for Mo Ran to be punished, he just wanted his money back. In any case, Chu Wanning looks at him and says that he seems like “a fine person” and that tiny, unthinking, act of kindness breaks through Rong Jiu’s better judgement again.

Rong Jiu helps buy them a few hours in which Mo Ran and Chu Wanning don’t make any progress. Mo Ran is still hostile and Rong Jiu stands his ground with the only power he has, his words.

Once Chu Wanning finds out that Rong Jiu was a sex-worker his demeanour changes. He looks at Rong Jiu like he’s taking him apart. To Chu Wanning’s jealous eyes, Rong Jiu is no longer “a fine person” he is lips that Mo Ran had kissed and a body that Mo Ran had tangled with.

So the next thing Chu Wanning says to him is “which brothel did you work at when you were alive?” Reducing him to his highly stigmatized job.

Yes, Rong Jiu at that moment has an idea of how to use Mo Ran to his advantage, but Chu Wanning does not know that. He is being needlessly cruel.

When Rong Jiu says he wants to improve his next life, Chu Wanning says that “reincarnation does not change the nature of a soul” essentially saying that Rong Jiu’s next life cannot be better because of a defect in Rong Jiu’s nature.

That defect apparently being that he had been trafficked and that Mo Ran had wanted him.

Rong Jiu is easily influenced by kindness, but hardens when faced with contempt, disgust, and humiliation. This is a learned response. So he goes through with his plan to use the jealousy currently hurting him to his advantage.

His only weapons are words and his only currency is his body. He has learned better than to trust people in power. He is only safe as long as he has the power to manipulate them.

His only weapons are words and his only currency is his body. He has learned better than to trust people in power. He is only safe as long as he has the power to manipulate them.

He doesn’t get that in the end. His desperation to get to a place where he can stop licking boots to survive ends in him having to lick boots for eternity.

Rong Jiu’s story is what Taxian-jun’s could have been if not for the kindness of Xue Zhengyong, the power of his lineage, and the love of Chu Wanning.

[fairydust-stuff]

2ha thoughts spoilers

I hate that stupid flower of hared! Not only does it throw the idea of redemption off a cliff! But it makes Mo Ran so much more less interesting. Mo Ran is presented from the start with the most screwed up Madonna/ whore complex. Or Whatever the Chinese idea of this is. 

He files Shi Mei as this kind of pure creature comparing him to the moon. He cann’t even feel attraction to his crush and spends more time lusting after Chu Wanning his rape victim from a previous time line. Who he focuses on in both a sexual manner and was implied to have sexually targeted due to viewing him as a terrible person who pretended to be pure. 

Then there’s Song who was killed after revealing she had a nasty streak by being boiled alive. Who Mo Ran never forgives for her transgression of bad mouthing Chu Wanning. 

 Rong Jiu who is assaulted, beaten and ruined in retaliation for betraying Mo Ran. Even though their interactions were purely transactional. Both whom Mo ran admitted to being drawn too because they reminded him of Shi Mei. They are cast aside when they no longer play into a fantasy no longer fit the idea of the boy in his head. 

Also the only people Ran Mo can bring himself to have sex with are a prostitute, His teacher who he see’s as bad and Song a Butterfly Beauty Feast. All three of these people are far enough from being people in Mo Ran’s eyes that he can bring himself to lust after them. 

this actually strengthens the Chu Wanning X Mo ran dynamic because Chu is the first person who Mo Ran’s view of gets shaken to its core. Mo Ran learns that Chu wanning has complicated reasons for the things he does. Even if those things might be harmful to some. He’s forced to see Chu as a complex person and even after he finds out Chu is in fact made of wood. 

Mo still see’s him as a person. In fact Chu is the only one who becomes real to him enough to shatter to barrier between love/sex and invoke feelings of both in Mo ran allowing him to actually be in love. Chu shatters his shallow view makes Mo Ran realize he was wrong to treat a person as a object for his pleasure. 

Except the flower reveals its a dam lie! 

Instead of an examination of the ideas/ culture and experiences that might teach a  guy  who to value and who to use for sex. And how those values lead to things like lack of respect for sexual consent. Which makes way too much sense considering the world Mo Ran grew up in. Which encourages the consumption of others. And the idea of how you can look past those ideas. 

He loved, respected and was attracted to Chu Wanning all along. Mo ran never had to learn to respect his sexual partners. He was only ever drawn to Shi Mei, Rong Jui because of the flower, he was just weird not because he had a tendency to dis value his sex partners for shallow reasons no it was because he’s not even drawn to girly men/ladies. (rolls eyes). 

Shi mei made Mo ran dismiss him as a perfect object. So him/Hau Binan being  angry or influenced by dealing with Mo Ran’s objectification of Shi Mei. Which are views expressed by both halves of Shi Mei in the text.  Isn’t allowed to affect Mo Ran in any way. Which is irritating since Shi mei whole deal is being part of a race that has been reduced to being treated as sub human. 

Since the story has decided that doesn’t matter. The fact that Ran Mo has been the client of an actual sex slave. Ran mo and his complicity in said abuse of older man despite his age. Lets just ignore that it wasn’t his fault it was the flower. 

In my opinion, that weakens Ran Mo as a character because he is never allowed to be complicit in his own negative, actions biases and even gets this special get out of jail free card. That reduces his character to nothing more then a victim of others actions. 

Yes Mo Ran still does the work to make up for certain past actions but his infractions which link to the theme of the novel about dehumanization  how it breeds monsters are completely ignored and outright dismissed. 

[thegreymoon]

Mo Ran is so gay it isn't even funny.

Now, this is just my opinion and I realise other people have their own interpretations, but this whole episode is super telling to me of just how unreliable his narration is about having tons and tons of sex with people of both genders in his previous lifetime. He's just so... oblivious. None of this reads as a man with a lot of previous experience with many different people. He did not pick up on her flirting with him at all. Sure, he did have a lot of insane sex in his past life, but as the book unfolds, it becomes very clear that most of that sex was with Chu Wanning. At best, there were only a handful of other people he was involved with, and one was a prostitute he was paying, while the other was his wife whose relationship with him was also transactional.

I know people argue that he is bisexual because he married Song Qiutong, but when we actually get her POV on their marriage, it turns out that they had unenjoyable sex only a handful of times, at least one of which was him taking her from behind and very much imagining that it was Chu Wanning in her place. There are plenty of gay men who end up married to straight women (and vice versa) for whatever reasons and none of this makes them any less gay. He also identifies as a 'cut-sleeve' himself at one point, so he doesn't seem at all confused about his sexual attraction to men. Later on, when we finally get his unaltered POV on his life in the brothel, it comes out that he considered the girls there as sisters at best, never as sexual partners. The only other named sexual partner is Rong Jiu, who is male, and I can buy that there were possibly other people who looked like Shi Mei that he was with under the influence of the cursed love spell, but there was never any real attraction there, which is why some argue that he is attracted only to Chu Wanning and would still be attracted to him regardless of gender.

But I think that this is also not true. He definitely was obsessed with Chu Wanning from an early age, which makes it hard to see what his preferences would have been if Chu Wanning wasn't in the picture, but that chapter when he finally realises his feelings also reveals that he does have a type, which he never dared to think about before because he thought he was unworthy of having a choice. However, Chu Wanning fits this type to a tee, so it's easy to run away with the idea that he is shizunsexual and that Mo Ran's attraction begins and ends with him.

With that said, we do get confirmation later on that he does find other men attractive, in particular, Jiang Xi. It's just that he never has the space or the inclination to do anything about it because of his preoccupation with Chu Wanning. In the extras, when Mo Ran misunderstands Xue Men's relationship with Jiang Xi and thinks they are having a love affair, in his unfiltered Taxian-jun state, he is full of approval because he personally finds these powerful, beautiful, prickly, emotionally unavailable older men to be the height of attractiveness. If Chu Wanning hadn't been in the picture, Mo Ran would have definitely been attracted to Jiang Xi or someone similar. Even Ye Wangxi, whom he also fixates on, fits this type (except for the older man bit because I understood her to be only a few years older than Mo Ran). The fact that she turns out to be a woman also cannot be used as an argument for Mo Ran's bisexuality because she very much presents as a man throughout the book (but whether or not she actually identifies as one is debatable).

In short, Mo Ran does have a type of man he is attracted to and it is definitely men that he likes, regardless of his few dubious and very unsatisfying dalliances with women. While Chu Wanning definitely fits this type of ideal man, there are other men out there whom Mo Ran finds attractive too, it's just that he is too unhinged about Chu Wanning to actually do anything about it. Also, I very much doubt that Mo Ran was nearly as promiscuous as he makes himself out to be because he reads as very oblivious when it comes to sexual relationships in general. Even with Chu Wanning, who was right there and about to pass away from sheer horniness that he couldn't even begin to disguise, Mo Ran was still going, "Shizun is so pure and virtuous!" 🙄

(I'm not going to get into the whole Shi Mei situation and how badly he misread him every step of the way too, but that is because his brain was so badly mangled by him that he really stood no chance on that front until it was entirely too late.)

[morethanwonderful]

The Semifinals Have Begun! The Which MXTX Character Was/Would Be Most Insufferable Online Tournament Bracket

For an explanation of what this poll's deal is or links to completed matches, look here.

Since there were only 4 matches last round, and your dear poll-runner is tired and overworked, I'm going to pass on the wrap-up stats this time (though I will have whole-poll stats for the final). Instead, I just want to take a quick moment to say thanks! Running this tournament has been a blast so far, and I love reading y'all's propaganda in my notes :).

Here's hoping we can keep this fun energy going as we enter

The Semifinals:

Wen Chao vs Qi Rong

Shen (Jiu) Qingqiu vs Luo Binghe

Happy voting :).

[web-novel-polls]

WN Women Bonus Polls #5: Other Danmei

[Propaganda below] - Major Spoilers Warning!

Baili Qingmiao from Devil Venerable Also Wants to Know

Submission: Her character arc is so good and im so proud of her 🥹 

Additional Propaganda: Baili Qingmiao's story is about breaking out of cycles that trap us in toxic situations. She is the last primordial goddess going through her tribulation, but some asshole thought he'd interfere making him her tribulation. She just wants to help people, but she can't escape her attachment until a bunch of demonic cultivators form a community around her and help her conquer the part of her is sabotaging her and the rest of the world.

DVAWTK Carrd Link 

Bai Rong from Thousand Autumns

Submission: She's funny, pretty, and goes through a great character arc. 

Chu Yue from Global Examination / GUEE / QQGK

Submission: She is the best friend anyone could ever have, and she is compassionate and kind despite the horrible things she's had to endure. She's a vital part in taking down The System (TM). 

Hua Xiangyi from Qiang Jin Jiu

Submission: Surprisingly skillful player in a complicated political arena. Her love interest is her stepdaughter (same age as her). 

Murong Mengze from Yuwu / Remnants of Filth

Submission: 

Okay, this is a tricky one. Major spoilers ahead. Murong Mengze was born biologically male but raised as a woman for her protection by her mother, who used medicine to make Mengze appear female. For most of the novel, Murong Mengze has a female identity and is referred to with female pronouns. At the end of the novel, it seems she is set to reveal herself as a man after taking control of Chonghua, and the narration refers to her with male pronouns at the very end. We don't actually see her unveil herself as a man, though. I'd say that she counts as a transgender woman, but it's okay to disqualify her. Anyway, the real propaganda is that she is an excellent puppeteer, pulling the strings behind the scenes without anyone realizing for a very long time. She controls the kingdom of Chonghua at the end of the novel. 

Wiki Link

Qiu Congxue from Devil Venerable Also Wants to Know

Submission 1: I haven't finished reading this book yet but Qiu Congxue is just the funniest character to me. her immediate suggestion to any problem is horrific, traumatizing violence and is confused by how this might be inappropriate or undesirable for some people. ultimate problem causer without realizing she might be causing problems. a genius to herself and no one else. she let her body be eaten by hungry ghosts for her cultivation. head intact, body skeletal and she likes it that way. when asked what she should do to interfere with the enemy while undercover in their territory, her sect leader and our protagonist Wenren E replied that her mere presence is enough interference in itself. my stupid queen <3

Submission 2: Skeleton lady full of ghosts (literally). 

DVAWTK Carrd Link

Qi Zhuyin from Qiang Jin Jiu

Submission: Female general in love with her stepmother. Known as the Wind Guiding the Scorching Plains.

Wiki Link

Shu Yanyan from Devil Venerable Also Wants to Know

Submission: Aroallo queen <3 

DVAWTK Carrd 

Song Qiutong from The Husky and His White Cat Shizun / 2ha

Submission: I just think it would be funny to have her here.

Ye Wangxi from The Husky and His White Cat Shizun / 2ha

“Among the 72 glorious cities of Rufeng Sect, there is not even one man.” - Ye Wangxi, The Husky and His White Cat Shizun, Chapter 215 (Wiki)

Submission: Righteous, dignified, loyal, brave, etc.

Mod Propaganda: The “last gentleman” in Rufeng Sect, according to Taxian-jun, who she fought to the end in the first timeline when the Rufeng Sect leaders had already bailed 

[joys-of-everyday]

On the fifty shades of morally grey

So quick thoughts on how MXTX writes morally grey.

Sorry, I mean, excessively long meta post on how MXTX writes morally grey. Light spoilers for all three books.

A gazillion caveats to begin with. Firstly, I don’t want to argue about whether character x is morally good, bad, grey, pink or whatever. In my books, arguing about whether someone is or is not morally grey is like arguing whether a colour is green, blue, teal, or turquoise – we’re arguing definitions. To add to that, I’m not saying that concepts like ‘this person is overall good’ doesn’t exist, but I would posit that a morally unquestionable person does not exist. Secondly, I also don’t want to pass moral judgements on any of the characters. That’s for a different post. I strictly want to focus on the storytelling techniques that make the reader think ‘hang on a second, are they good or bad?’. Thirdly, this whole post is mainly based on How Arcane Writes MORAL AMBIGUITY (9 Methods, 4 Rules) - YouTube. Great video, great channel (no knowledge of Arcane required). Would recommend if you are interested in story writing techniques!

1) The information gap and the poor narrator

Best example is Shen Jiu from SVSSS. We barely know anything about Shen Jiu. Almost everything we know is from SQQ’s notoriously unreliable perspective, so we’re left to fill in the gaps ourselves. Depending on exactly how those gaps are filled, you can get two completely different people. E.g. Did he have designs of NYY, or was he just ridiculously misunderstood? Who knows! We’re never told. Even if we were told, we should doubt it because it’s SQQ telling us.

2) 4D characterisation

Schnee’s video goes into this in more details, but this is where you build two narratives on top of one another. Best example is Jin Guangyao from MDZS. Is he an underdog who did what he could out of his situation and tried his best to be a better person working for the good of the common people? Or is he a selfish, manipulative, ambitious snake who at every stage pretends to be good in order to win the favour of those around him? The point is that both narratives make sense in the story. There are moments that lean more one way or another, but you can never quite pin him down completely.

3) Moments of weakness

Best example is Xie Lian from TGCF. On the whole, XL is a wonderful human being who you 100% want to root for. Except… there was that one time he made a mistake. He let his hurt and pain overcome him; he became hurtful himself. The point here is to add in just a few ‘moments’ which fundamentally impacts how the rest of the world perceives them from that point forwards. They are forever trying to redeem themselves, forever weighed down by what is a tiny proportion of their life. The underlying question is ‘is a moment of weakness a moral failure?’

Another good example is Qi Rong from TGCF. On the whole, he’s a piece of s***. But then there are moments when he’s a genuinely good father to Guzi, and that’s confusing.

4) Well-intentioned idiot

Trying to do the right thing and absolutely failing. Best example is Wei Wuxian from MDZS. His intentions are always good. There are extremely few moments where he is selfish or overly cruel. He is always fighting for justice, always self-sacrificing, always kind. And yet the outcome of his actions is pretty bad. The underlying question is ‘should you judge a person based on their intent, or on the consequences of their actions?’

(btw the name of the method is from schnee’s video. No shade on WWX. He is very smart… well, unless it comes to LWJ’s feelings.)

5) Excuses

Yes, they’re bad. But we feel sorry for them! Almost everyone fits into this boat, because doesn’t MXTX love trauma dumping? As one example, let’s look at Jiang Cheng from MDZS. JC’s behaviour towards WWX is pretty bad on its own. But given the context of his childhood being compared to him, of having his self-esteem brutally crushed by both parents? Knowing how much he’s done and sacrificed for him, how much he truly cared for him as family? It hits different.

A small point: ‘excuses aren’t enough’ we say a lot (and I agree, to an extent). But compare, for example, Jin Guangshan vs Xue Yang. JGS seems to be a power-hungry asshole for absolutely no reason. On the other hand, put XY in different circumstances and we feel like he might have been a better person. Just as food for thought, there was a Japanese monk Honen (1133-1212) who said: ‘The good person can reach the Pure Land, so of course the evil person can as well’. The point being that the people who struggle with anger and hate because of their circumstances are most in need of salvation.

6) World building and presenting hard questions

What is acceptable sacrifice in war?

Is it okay to make a super dangerous weapon for the sake of deterrence?

How much personal responsibility does someone hold for a lifetime of circumstances pushing them towards a morally questionable path?

What are the responsibilities of a leader – to do what is right, or to do what is best for their people?

The world of MDZS is imperfect. It’s full of horrors and disasters, as well as a mob of outsiders all trying to impart their opinions despite knowing little about the situation. An imperfect world presents unanswerable questions. We see the characters struggle with these questions, come to decisions, and make mistakes, all naturally arising within the complex world that’s been presented. 

TGCF does this most explicitly. We literally have Kemo and Pei Xiu arguing about the ethics of war and XL concluding that it’s a Hard Question. In fact, every backstory of every Heavenly Official presents a new Hard Question. I don’t know if I like this method over the more subtle style of MDZS, but I have Thoughts about the storytelling styles of both (long story short, I love them both for different reasons).

7) Worlds are colliding

A slightly complicated method that takes a huge amount of set up. To summarise, set up two arcs that we the reader both feel invested in. Then set up a point where the ‘good’ outcome of one is the ‘bad’ outcome of another. For MDZS, we have 1) JC and WWX’s brotherhood arc. 2) WWX standing up for justice arc. They’re both merrily developing all the way through the conflict with the Wens… right until the moment WWX has to make a choice: stand up for justice and leave JC behind, or to fulfil his promises to JC and turn a blind eye to the injustices against the Wens. The decision is a lose-lose scenario because of the way these arcs have been set up.

8) Spectrums, Spectrums, we love Spectrums

Gongyi Xiao is a cinnamon roll. As is Wen Ning and Quan Yizhen. Meanwhile, the Old Palace Master? Literally no redeeming qualities. Wen Chao? Absolute scum. Then there’s everyone lying somewhere in between. We like Lan Wangji more than JC (I think that seems to be the case for most people?) but we certainly like JC more than JGS. Having a spectrum of morality is important because it gives us reference points to contrast and compare. It also emphasises the moral greyness of everything, because sure, Mu Qing isn’t a noodle like Shi Qingxuan, but is he worse than White No Face?

9) Spectrums aren’t enough – adding depth

Almost all of WWX’s moral ambiguity comes from the fact he has hard decisions to make. And for each of these decisions, the outcome is murky. He developed a new technique to fight against the Wens, but at what cost later down the line? He defended the Wens and gave them a few years of life, but was it worth it?

Compare with JGY. JGY does a lot of good. He also does a lot of bad. The magnitude of both lists is ridiculous. Sure, you wouldn’t usually find someone who’s killed most of their family members in any way likable, but how often do you come across someone who literally ended a war?

So one way of creating moral ambiguity is to make each decision difficult, but another way to go about it is to just… make them do loads of things. Like loads of things. Good things, bad things, all the in between things. Judging each thing is not that hard, but then trying to judge the overall person based on it is extremely difficult.

10) Pulling from the real world

Often, moral questions in fiction is hard because (surprise, surprise) moral questions are just hard full stop. Idk enough Chinese history and culture to accurately pin down all of MXTX’s references, but things like stupid misunderstands leading to conflict, poverty and inequality, less than ideal family situations, the horrors of war… these are all things that happen irl. No matter how fantastical the setting, grounding moral conflicts in reality makes us feel more emotional and invested.

Anyway, I hope that was an enjoyable rundown! This is an imperfect list, so comments, criticisms, suggestions greatly appreciated!

[dangermousie]

I am barely into my reread of 2ha but:

1. I am reading the Russian translation and WOW! The English translation is excellent but the Russian one is beyond - it has footnotes explaining all the slang (a lot of it!) and character combo puns, and name meanings etc. I love it. The footnotes are as long as the chapters :) Also, I have learned that apparently male duck = slang for a man living off sexual favors. Heh.

2. On a more serious note, it caught my attention that before taking poison, Taxian Jun transported all the remaining servants away. He did not murder them all as a last hurrah, or even leave them there on the peak to be possibly murdered by the invading army. TXJ is, by that point, a thoroughly mad monster who’s killed an untold amount of people but it’s these little bits that “don’t fit” that on reread go “hmmm” - like his innate humanity occasionally seeping through the cracks of the insanity and hatred prison the flower put him into.

2. Taxian Jun wakes up as Mo Ran, catalogues Rong Jiu next to him - his delicate, “girlish” looks and is repulsed. That is before he thinks about how RJ betrayed him; in fact his “ugh” is based solely on looks at this point - he remembers how in his past life he used to love those looks but now he’s wondering why and is feeling repulsed. That is so telling! Because elsewhere it talks how RJ’s type of looks reminds him of Shi Mei (and as we later find out, the fact that both are acting and betrayers is also similar) and yet here we are - Mo Ran with flower removed finds that kind of looks not at all his bag (which makes sense - if his type is Chu Wanning, older, icy, in control and, as Meatbun keeps reminding us, despite his gorgeous looks, not in the least delicate and girlish looking), then Shi Mei is not his type on the animal level. And yet he seemingly pines for Shi Mei and when you first read this book, you do not catch this odd misalignment at all, that without the flower spell, Mo Ran would have never even looked at Shi Mei as attractive whether CWN existed or not. But on reread! I love the way Meatbun sprinkles crumbs.

4. Mo Ran wonders how he actually got reborn. Ooooof!

5. The way Meatbun mentions “this may have been a matter of heredity” (OK not sure what’s the good word - heredity/genetics/background) about how Mo Ran built his foundation so quickly. There are so many hints, everything is so meticulously planned out!

6. When Xue Meng is cursing him out and Mo Ran is enjoying it - and it’s described as his enjoying feeling strong emotions directed at him. In fact, reading between the lines, everything seems stronger and brighter for him - emotions (his and others), colors, tastes, his own emotional state. That is because he is beginning to feel normally, without the spell on him, and it’s like coming out from beneath a thick, distorting piece of glass. 

7. I love that he thinks of cutting Rong Jiu’s face but does not because Rong Jiu hasn’t harmed him yet and going down the same vengeance path would mean a bad end, why waste his second chance. All correct, all logical - but is it something the man who fried his wife and murdered half the world and then killed himself capable of? Once again, Meatbun, you genius!

8. The way TXJ didn’t even bother to put an inscription on his own grave. But what he has in the coffin are dumplings and pear blossom wine and the grave is under the haitang tree. He wants to die surrounded by CWN even though he has no idea with his conscious mind.

[nemainofthewater]

Best character surnamed: Rong

Come and vote for the best characters with the same surname!*

What does best mean? It's up to you! Whether you love them, are intrigued by their characters, love to hate them, or they're your '2 second blorbos whose personality you made up wholesale', these are all reasons for you to vote for your favs!

*note, the surnames are not exactly the same in all the cases, as often there will be a different character. I am, however, grouping them all together otherwise things got more complicated.

Propaganda is very welcome! If I’ve forgotten anyone, let me know in the notes.

This is part of a larger series of ‘best character with X surname’ polls’. The overview with ongoing polls, winners, and future polls can be found here

[symphonyofsilence]

Fanfics ideas, cause you love MXTX works. MDZS characters will be besties with who (in your opinions) if they were in other universe, with characters from TGCF & SVSSS ? Please pick at least 3 characters from each series. Hope my questions are not confusing.....

Nie Huaisang would have been a big fan of Liu Mingiyan and Liu Mingyian would have appreciated NHS's collection of... educational books so she could write more exciting and diverse Smuts. Shang Qinghua would have found his way in and NHS & he would definitely get along very well. Shi Qingxuan & NHS would get along like a house on fire. (Though SQX would not get a word of what was said among NHS, LMY, & SQH he would enjoy the vibes & be happy to be there) And WWX naturally would belong to this group and bring JC with him. I don't know, maybe SQX, much like how happy he was to find a Ming-Xiong, and mess with General Nanyang would have been happy to meet Jiang Cheng, whether Jiang-Xiong felt the same or not? Or maybe not? Like... he apparently hadn't tried to make friends with Fengqing so maybe he wouldn't try to make friends with JC either (even if he did I think it wouldn't have been an especially deep relationship between them. It would be more like NHS's and JC's) WWX, SQX, and SQH would drag in LWJ, HX, & Mobei-Jun with them. Those three would absolutely say nothing and make no friends. Mobei-Jun (despite WWX and SQX's many attempts) and LWJ (despite SQX's many attempts) would stare in a dead inside way and He Xuan would eat. (Shen Qingqiu would have loved to join them but Liu Mingiyan would turn strangely quiet against NHS's questions when SQQ was around, so...)

I'd love to see Xue Yang, Qi Rong, and Sha Hualing interact! I believe They would get along very well. I'd love to see them take care of Guzi together, too! (Guzi would end up taking care of them.)

(Then Sha Hualing and Xuan Ji would inevitably cross paths and have a nice girl in-bathroom talk wherein Sha Hualing would try to knock some sense into Xuan Ji and tell her to know your worth, girl and it would result in Xuan Ji going you know what?! Maybe you're right maybe I SHOULD let go. To which Sha Hualing would answer WHAT?! NO WAY! KICK HIS A$$!!)

One lotus root pork soup from Jiang Yanli would work wonders for Shen Jiu (who needs an older sister). And I think JYL, since she apparently likes to surround herself with tsunderes would be fond of him, too. Shen Jiu might have crossed paths with fellow street rat A-Qing. The hissing cats would bond and form the deepest, and strongest frenemy relationship and stick together. Then Shen Jiu would inevitably end up meeting Xiao Xingchen. This group would fix him. Before breaking him even worse because of the whole...you know,... Yi City Arc. Then he'd be adopted by Yushi Huang or Baoshan Senren. Maybe Yushi Huang could promote A-Qing to godhood. their combination with Pei Su, Ban Yue, and Pei Ming could have been interesting.

Teenage Mu Qing-gege would also probably know A-Qing, Shen Jiu, and Yue Qinguuan. and occasionally give them food and keep an eye on them. This combo-minus YQY- might have also occasionally bitched about others with each other. (So the god adopting Shen Jiu and promoting A-Qing to godhood could be MQ, too)

Jiang Yanli would flourish if she could join Yushi Huang and have a peaceful positive maternal figure who cherished her talents and calm demeanor. JYL, Ban Yue, and Pei Xu would have helped each other. she would also enjoy interacting with SQX, and Xie Lian. and SQX would like her very much. She might have also had a soft spot for Mu Qing and looked out for him and what he didn't say.

Wei Wuxian and Hua Cheng would get into passive-aggressive rivalry in talent, sass, fashion, batshit theories and ideals, and sass. they would greatly enjoy their rivalry though. Maybe through Hua Cheng, WWX would meet He Xuan, too, and enjoy annoying him. He might form a very forced, very one-sided friendship with He Xuan, Which after a while of WWX imposing himself on him, HX might or might not come to miss in WWX's absence.

Ling Wen and Jin Guangyao would have a pleasant talk over tea about how incompetent everyone else is and how they have to do everything around here. Then slowly, they'd be joined by Yin Yu, Zhuzhi-lang, and Shang Qinghua. And then This talk would then turn into a union.

Wen Qing and Mu Qing would meet each other while healing others and they'd start to be mean judgemental bitches together. They have kind hearts. They save everyone's lives, but they also shoot death glares at everyone & bitch about everyone while doing it.

Wen Qing might have also befriended Ling Wen. She might have been recruited by Qi Qinqi.

Lan Xichen, Yue Qingyuan, Yushi Huang, and Xie Lian could drink tea together and have a pleasant conversation without an actual word that would lead to any personal knowledge about them being exchanged. Though any two combinations of this group could have a vague and not very revealing but definitely insightful conversation with each other.

I know Liu Qingge, Jiang Cheng, and Mu Qing are a popular combo of hissing cats. But these 3 could stay together in one room for centuries and do not utter a word to each other or make any other attempt at human connection. Xie Lian though, a certified bitch- specialist might want to befriend Jiang Cheng, Shen Jiu, and Liu Qingge.

Literally anyone could befriend Shen Qingqiu (Shen Yuan, obviously) . Especially the cloud recesses trio, especially Jiang Cheng. Jin Zixuan would have benefitted greatly from befriending SQQ. (Or maybe not. Who knows.)

Xie Lian and Xiao Xingchen would have a very pleasant short chat. A-qing and Xue Yang would also love the other Daozhang. This would result in A-Qing wanting to protect the Daozhang from mean strangers and Xue Yang wanting to torment Daozhang as a sign of his gratitude for his exemplary manners towards Xue Yang. Luckily XL wouldn't stick around this long.

The Juniors would look up to Liu Qingge and would love to be his disciples. (Especially JL who feels life LQG kinda has a similar attitude to his Jiujiu and reminds him of his jiujiu) they would get into- hopefully- friendly rivalries with Shen Qingqiu's disciples, especially Ning Yingying and Ming Fan. In time those two would join the Junior group as well.

Jin Ling would follow Feng Xin around because AN ARCHERY GOD! And since the juniors stick together, so would the three others. And since Fengqing are always together, the two southern gods would acquire a band of ducklings.

Qi Qingqi would immediately recruit Mianmian. Pei Ming would try to hit on Qi Qingqi and immediately realize his mistake. They'd eventually befriend each other and Qi Qingqi would gain a place among The Three Tumors. That would lead to Qi Qingqi meeting Ban Yue and recruiting her, too.

After Ling Wen recruited Jin Guangyao as a god to help her do paperwork, JGY would find a solid place for himself in The Three Tumors, too.

(Mostly SVSSS/TGCF interactions:

Tianlang-Jun, with his interest in polyamorous dramas, would follow 3Zun dramas intensely. Pei Ming would get curious about what he's observing like a soap opera and join him in watching that trashfire. they'd have a great time eating popcorn and doing commentaries together, and then Tianlang-Jun would pull an uno-reverse on Pei Ming by giving him advice on how to court Yushi Huang.

Jian Lan has big maternal instincts, and Luo Binghe is above all, a baby. So Jian Lan would become LBH's new ghost mama and Shen Qingqiu would get along splendidly with his new ghost mother-in-law.)

[danmeiconfession]

My friend told me about his dream where the Mc from MXTX novel's (+SJ) were all magical girls and they had somewhat a rival to lovers with their love interest but like, the Love Interest were power rangers

I Just heard them spend 10 minutes trying to explain to me on how SJ and XL were The best magical girls Madoka Style and Why Qi Rong HAD to be a Power ranger because it just made sense

And then 10 more minutes of the very interesting Qi Rong/Zuzhi-Lang/Shen Jiu throuple thingy that her mind had going on

I am amazed

I am scared

I don't know what he is on but I think I want some

The human mind is truly fascinating, or maybe my friend is just smoking expired weed

.

[talk-danmei-to-me]

Ranking my Summer of Danmei Results: 2ha side characters

My Answers: I finally got 2 matches!

1) Xue Meng

My Peacock! I love him. He stans his shizun. He's going to be so disappointed in him.

2) Ye Wangxi

Like Mo Ran, we love and appreciate Ye Wangxi in this house.

3) Nangong Si

He's troubled, but I like having him around.

4) Xu Shuanglin/Nangong Xu

Made Nangong Si's wedding my favourite. Love his evil schemes. Cursing your brother then getting him to eat human flesh in front of the entire Cultivation world iconic. Potential shizun fucker.

5) Xue Zhengyong

Just an all round good egg. No complaints.

6) Shi(t) Mei

How my thoughts on Shi(t) Mei change like the weather.

7) Rong Jiu

Boy icarused himself through making bad decisions.

8) Veggiebun

For putting Ranwan on Xue Meng's radar, veggiebun deserves the world.

9) Song Qiutong

I liked the part where Taixian Jun turned her into soup.

10) Nangong Liu

He's just a bit shit tbh. If only he'd never stole his brother's thunder or killed his wife, he'd probably be having a nice time.

[spriteofmushrooms]

Please nominate characters for the incredibly stupid event I want to run, The Annual & Eternal Allcheng Completionist Run Any% Event. Here's the random roll 2d10 table so far:

01 Jar Jar Binks (Star Wars)

02 Olaf (Frozen)

03 Heathcliff and/or Catherine Earnshaw (Wuthering Heights)

04 Six Balls (SVSSS)

05 Wang Lingjiao

06 Bowser (Mario)

07 Ganon and/or Ganondorf (Legend of Zelda)

08 Xenomorph (Alien) and/or any Predator (Predator)

09 GLADoS (Portal)

10 Shrek (Shrek)

11 You (you) and/or Your "Y/N" Name (reader)

12 Xie Lian and/or Hua Cheng (TGCF)

13 One Direction

14 Kairi, Riku, and/or Sora (Kingdom Hearts)

16 Song Lan and/or Xiao Xingchen

17 Gongyi Xiao and/or Zhuzhi-lang (SVSSS)

20 Luo Qingyang

23 Loki (any)

24 Xie'er (Word of Honor)

27 Shigure Shoma (Fruits Basket)

29 Ming Fan and/or Ning Yingying (SVSSS)

30 Jiao Liqiao (Mysterious Lotus Casebook)

34 Alucard (Castlevania)

35 Ianto Jones (Torchwood)

36 Sha Hualing and/or Liu Mingyan (SVSSS)

37 Ouyang Zizhen and/or Su Minshan

38 Qi Rong (TGCF)

40 Wei Changze and/or Cangse Sanren

41 Sephiroth (Final Fantasy)

42 PIDW Luo Binghe and/or SVSSS Luo Binghe (SVSSS)

43 Claude von Riegan (Fire Emblem)

44 Anne Elliot and/or Frederick Wentworth (Persuasion)

45 Haruhi, Kyoya, and/or Tamaki (Ouran High School Host Club)

46 Feng Xin and/or Mu Qing (TGCF)

47 Magnai (Final Fantasy)

48 Qui-Gon Jinn and/or Obi-Wan Kenobi (Star Wars)

49 Yennefer, Jaskier, and/or Geralt (The Witcher)

50 Danyin, Dongfang Xunfeng, Jieli, and/or Shangque (Love Between Fairy and Devil)

51 Venom (Marvel)

52 Mobei-jun and/or Shang Qinghua (SVSSS)

53 Tadashi (Big Hero Six)

54 Tadashi (Sk8)

57 Jinzhu/Yinzhu/Jiang Cheng

61 Ling Wen, Pei Ming, and/or Shi Wudu (TGCF)

62 Wen Kexing (Tian Ya Ke/Word of Honor)

65 Elizabeth Bennet and/or Fitzwilliam Darcy (Pride and Prejudice)

66 Yue Qingyuan (SVSSS)

67 Sesshoumaru (Inuyasha)

69 Tianlang-jun (SVSSS)

70 Toji Fushiguro (Jujutsu Kaisen)

73 Riza Hawkeye (Fullmetal Alchemist)

77 Shen Qingqiu: Shen Jiu and/or Shen Yuan (SVSSS)

80 Qin Su/Wen Qing/Jiang Cheng

86 Sidon (Legend of Zelda)

88 Mo Ran and/or Chu Wanning (Erha)

91 Jin Guangyao/Lan Xichen/Jiang Cheng

96 Di Feisheng, Fang Duobing, and/or Li Lianhua (Mysterious Lotus Casebook)

99 Wang Yue (The Journey of Chongzi)

100 Pike Dexter (Big Eden)

Only 47 options to go! Ideally, your ship should have no fanworks on ao3, but having up to 10-25 is alright.

Please include a number to assign on the table since I know very few of these characters. You don't have to stick with bad = low.

[yoyowrites]

more erha/2ha thoughts now that i fnished vol3 (no spoilers past then please)

I'm happy chu wanning is alive. i was worried he would go in to the reincarnation cycle and then there would be another huge age gap.

anyway my thoughts: i love xue meng so much. hes such a sweetheart. his and mo ran's relationship is so fun. they really embody sibling energy and i appreciate that greatly. even when mo ran was deep as taxianjun, he obviously still cared for him. like yeah he didn't kill him because of chu wanning's intervention but i think it would have been a huge regret of his forever if he had murdered xue meng. also xue meng is so straight forward and i love that.

i have mixed feelings about rong jiu (he's the prostitute incase anyone is bad with names like me). in general, i have a soft spot for sex workers so i liked him at first. even when he betrayed mo ran, i found him a fun antagonist. however, how he acted in this last book frustrated me. he really is just a short sighted man. i understand that he's a bastard but the way that wanning says how their souls are of different calibers without knowing anything outside of rong jiu was once a whore irked me. sex workers are people too. yeah rong jiu is a pos but its because he lacks loyalty to anyone but himself and is short sighted not because he worked at a brothel but wanning doesn't know that at all. it again brings up the Madonna whore complex like in the first book but now chu wanning's the kind virtuous maiden, instead of the sullied slut he was presented as in book 1. anyway if i ever write fanfic im rewriting his character as smarter than he is but still as a selfish asshole. gonna start book 4 soon, i already got it from my library

also also, im a little lost on how to feel about shi mei. i don't dislike him at all. i do see thatt the author is showing how superficial mo ran's crush on shi mei was. he constantly chased after people that loosely resembled shi mei but were if widely different characters. its because he never truly knew who shi mei was outside of his idealized thought of him. idk is shi mei secretly evil? i hope not because i like him as part of the trio. (not as much as bby boy xue meng but he's cool)

[thegreymoon]

Do you think Mo Ran is misogynistic to Song Qiutong? How do you feel about Rong Jiu and Song Qiutong writing in 2ha?

I'm assuming that this ask is from the same person who sent that other one I just answered.

No, I don't think that Mo Ran is misogynistic. In his right mind, he has been nothing but loving and respectful to all women he came across, with the exception of Song Qiutong whom he hated for the kind of person she was, not because she was a woman. In fact, his deep hatred of Song Qiutong is not even so much about hating her, but about hating what she enabled him to do. She encouraged the worst side of him, and even though she was the one who betrayed the Rufeng Sect, he was the one to raze it to the ground and kill Ye Wangxi. All the evil she caused as Empress (up to and including torturing Chu Wanning) was because he gave her leave to do so. She was the one who opened the doors to let Chu Wanning escape for that final 0.5 fight, but it was Mo Ran's actions that led Chu Wanning to such extremes in the first place. She disgusted him, but his hatred of her was magnified because she was so intimately tied to his own regrets and shame.

Honestly, I find Song Qiutong and Rong Jiu (and Shi Mei) fans who level these kinds of baseless accusations at Mo Ran to make their slimy faves look better completely exhausting. Yeah, Mo Ran hated Song Qiutong in a sea of other women whom he was very respectful of because she was a vile person who was intimately tied to his own evildoing. No, he was not misogynistic, he was just in a toxic marriage and hated this one woman in particular, not all women as a group. No, he is not a rapist for frequenting brothels and sleeping with Rong Jiu. Yes, Rong Jiu did actually scheme to murder Mo Ran in both timelines, it is not Mo Ran's "biased-ass POV" baselessly accusing him (an actual thing I've had a Rong Jiu stan tell me). Yes, both Rong Jiu and Song Qiutong were doing their best to survive, but just because they were born into horrible circumstances does not change the fact that they were also horrible people who never hesitated for a moment to throw others under the bus if it meant they would benefit from it, up to and including murder (or in Song Qiutong's case, the slaughter of entire cities).

Another thing that I find especially hilarious about these accusations against Mo Ran is that there is usually an overlap between Rong Jiu and Song Qiutong fans and Shi Mei fans. It is so funny that they are so ready to hate on Mo Ran for what he did to Rong Jiu and Song Qiutong but conveniently forget that Shi Mei killed them both in a pretty brutal fashion in the second timeline just because it was useful to him. He did not even have a personal grudge the way Mo Ran did. Also, it is no coincidence that there are so many parallels between Rong Jiu, Song Qiutong and Shi Mei. The likeness between them is not just skin-deep. All three of them are cruel opportunists with no conscience to speak of and only their own self-interest in mind.

I feel that Meatbun wrote her novel as a detailed commentary on evil and human weakness and how people end up there, starting from mundane, petty, self-serving evil that is on display in a multitude of scenes in the book among ordinary, common people, to the absolutely unhinged extremism that we saw in Shi Mei. Song Qiutong and Rong Jiu are somewhere in the middle of the scale.

[grumfield]

I'm not the same anon but I've recently been looking for some metas on consent in 2ha 😅. It's both for bettering my own understanding of the story through different perspectives and also for a 2ha fic i'm working on. Do you know any metas on this subject? or can you share your interpretation if that is okay with you? thanks!

I don’t know of any metas of the top of my head but I’d love to explain my own interpretation! I won’t go too much into overt spoilers but more just general vibe implications

2ha is like telling someone who’s being bit viciously by their dog that they’re a victim and while yes that’s technically true it’s then revealed that the dog has been put in a fighting pit its entire life, got a nice owner for 2 weeks, and then got put back in an even worse fighting pit where he’s horribly conditioned to exclusively bite and kill, and only 40 years later is he randomly set loose back in his nice owner’s old house.

2ha works in a way I like because the layers of who exactly is experiencing non-con (both sexual and otherwise) is a sort of little matryoshka doll reveal.

The most obvious—and one that everything revolves around—being Chu Wanning’s past life. He suffers the most straightforward abuse, he gives the most straightforward sacrifice. It’s very clear cut, and as a result you have a very comprehensive interplay of desire and fantasy. Dude essentially gets his rocks off to visions of his love interest as kindle unlimited alpha billionaire and it’s very clear that entertaining sex slave fantasy in the comfort of your own bed is not the same as experiencing IRL. Congrats Chu Wanning, you discovered BDSM scenes and submission! Surely that’s the extent of it for you and others (it’s not)

As for everyone else…

I can’t remember the exact quote but Mo Ran thinks about how as a child he was so poor that he never knew what he liked, and he didn’t actually have opinions on simple stuff like flavors or appearances or the gender of people because that was a luxury for the rich. It’s like that “maybe I would be nonbinary but I have a job” meme lmao . Wanting things, or not wanting them, or making decisions for yourself, is something that isn’t allowed for the poor. If you exist in a structure where you don’t even know what you want, you physically can’t.

Basically every other character who enacts or experiences noncon in all its strokes falls into this bucket. And it’s kind of the earliest instance we catch something explicitly laid out about consent beyond just strictly sexual, and how it very plainly lays out the definition of it as: any position where you do something you don’t want to do is noncon.

But you’re so distracted by the explicitly sexual dramatic yaoi discussions of attic wife sex dungeon noncon you don’t really give it much thought until later. But it’s crazy in retrospect because Meatbun gives us two characters who are a synthesis of these things—Rong Jiu and Song Quitong—really early on, who are both victims of poverty and as a result do and are subject to stuff that’s really terrible. Mo Ran just sucks bad and hates their guts so we’re a bit blind to it even though they came from really similar backgrounds (which kind of ties into a separate but equally interesting question Meatbun poses of if empathy and peace is something only afforded by people who are rich—Mo Ran wasn’t able to save earthworms until he was in a safe environment and had food in his belly).

The matryoshka doll goes further when we find out exactly what happened to Mo Ran, and THAT is what I love about it. That. Because very suddenly your entire idea of who the biggest victim in 2ha is goes from the very straightforward answer to one that’s significantly more complicated. Yes Chu Wanning is a victim but Mo Ran has been a victim since the moment he was born, and then in a brief heartbeat where he was allowed to grow and be kind, he was immediately subjected to the most violating horrific nightmarish thing could happen to him and dude STILL manages to hold some shred of humanity. I joke about Mo Ran being terrible and a piece of work and he is but my boy contains multitudes and he is also the nicest sweetest gentlest boy in the whole world who did nothing wrong (he did) (but also he didn’t) (but also he did) (but he—)

This plays a lot into a third character who I won’t say for spoilers but you’ll definitely know who I’m talking about if you’ve read the whole book!!

[fairydust-stuff]

I actually do love Mo Ran but

2ha Fandom Rong Jiu was just nasty trash I don't blame Mo Ran for crushing him. Is a take I cann't stand him! Song got what she deserved.

I mean Mo Ran only became a better person because he got a magical do over and even then it took him half a time line. To start to not be a shit but because Rong Jiu and Song aren't instantly remorseful. Their garbage even though they never got time, care and attention from those not their slave owners.

Meatbun even highlights this with RJ in her notes.

I also love how the power dynamic of a ritch kid punching down on on and sexually assaulting a sex slave while tricking the justice system useing his connections to get away with stealing from him. Is seen as justice and not a gross abuse of power.

(And some of this shit you cann't blame the flower of hate on) And everything he does is cheered on. And then the same people painting RJ as a predator to innocent sweet underage Mo Ran. Proceed to go hate on Song who was a teenager when Mo Ran dragged her off and married her after slaughtering her entire sect. Then are like yes this thirty year old is justified in killing her twice. Because she was mildly petty and selfish at best.

Both times he lashes out at them doing anything back/anything he doesn't like in Song's case. Instead of letting what they did in the past go. Ignoring his own culpibility/ selfishness in their situations. Even side stepping the issue to pass judgement on their moral character. To absolve himself of wrongdoing. In Song's case he even projects his own abuse/ sins toward Chu Wanning onto her.

I don't think your supposed to actually agree with Mo Ran. Those examples are here to highlight why he's not a good person. The entire 2ha universe doesn't support eye for an eye. Could some of it had been done better sure.

But I don't understand how some people read Mo Rans trial scene. Pointing out the self rightious and the very clear people love to feel better about themselves by humilating/hurting wrongdoers message and not going back and seeing the very set up of that theme with Mo Ran & Rong Jiu and Mo Ran & Song.

Both times he starts out as the one dishing out his idea of justice and ends up the one on trial. With the mob doing the same thing to him. The cycle of blame and self rightious posturing without offering aid and compassion is the point!