#I knew the show was queerbait but I did not expect it to be THIS gay

[lover-of-mine]

On the question of the new viewers. Let me preface with after getting burned bad I made a promise I would never ship Canon straight characters as queer ships ever again. It just comes into play to understand the readers digest version of this. Yes I was always aware of the Buddie ship and the actors but that was it

I accidentally started season 6. It just came on, and I just didnt look away. Here's how it went.

I actually saw the lasagna dinner scene and thought wait they went Canon? That's them right? Then quickly realized. Nope 2 straight besties. Bucks a cool uncle (didn't know about will scene forgive me). And proceeded to not get attached.

Actually easy because they separated them a bit. But then there was the lightening strike and poker date and I was like oh somethings happening. I was wrong they had the dopey ass ending and I was like bless me for not getting invested.

Then.... It was a year wait!!!!!! So it was a boredom tune back in. I was pleased to see Bucks bi story. I thought the first kiss was charming. Then he was just there. I left the season thinking Eddie was tragically in love with his dead wife and Buck was experimenting.

If I didn't go back to binge I would have gone into 8 with these expectations. Eddie either excepting he was a tragic single father forever. Buck, yes probably seeing Tommy, but no I was not a shipper. Firstly because of appearance. I have no problem with age difference but with them I just don't like it. Tommy seems older and rougher. On the flip side personality. That Tommy wasn't what I pictured Bucks end game as like at all. I wanted someone like Spencer Reid if it wasn't Eddie.

But... . I did go back and binge. S1 was a trip. Got to S2. Saw the opening. Went duh I get why they ship them, but you ain't getting me. Until the elf scene. I really was good. But right after the elf scene I remembered hearing how Tim wrote it as a nod and double checked.. Remember, it would be weird to see the scene and know Tim knows after knowing full well yes Buck would come out queer. So it really was a no brainer after that. No way Tim created this in S2 if they weren't end game if there was ever a chance.

Then came the well, tsunami, shooting, will reveal, break ups, co dependant idiots and finally caught back to the lasagna and lightening. Also seeing how much Eddie isn't a reliable narrator about his relationship with Shannon. The version I got at the end of 7 is not what was happening on my screen in 2. I would almost label it a red herring depending on how this plays out in 8. Also after watching the begin episodes I understood anyone's frustration that Tommy was just white washed.

Final conclusion. Not even trying to sound condescending but I don't know why the other side even thinks this is a "ship war". I was late and I never hated Tommy but I would have never shipped them as end game. I couldn't even tell if Tommy actually liked Buck. I was left with the ick of Buck was a consolation prize or second choice and Buck was trying way to hard. Taking scraps and being grateful. Maybe because I binged it was more fresh but it was more of how little self respect Buck had for himself in trying to be in a relationship.

And if anyone finished reading that you deserve an award.

This is an interesting view of things, I think if you only have the s7 context, you will see them differently because the whole Kim thing really messes with the perception of Eddie and love, thank you for coming and telling me this, really.

But this kinda made me talk about my experience with buddie, so I'm gonna do that, because I think it's funny. I didn't know much about the show, but I knew of buddie, I started watching during the hiatus between 5a and 5b and during that time there was some big talk about queerbaiting going around and I know of them next to ships like destiel and stucky and destiel, I had just read an article on queerbaiting that had a section talking about them, so I kinda assumed buddie would be the same as they had enough context to create a ship but not enough for it to have a real chance of going canon, so I was set on not shipping them. Like, I was legit ready to roll my eyes and see that Buck and Eddie with their respective female love interests and be like "okay they are never going anywhere" but then an elf pretty much calls them gay as Eddie justifies sleeping with his wife 10 episodes in and I was like "oh oh" because they have a compelling friendship and I'm a sucker for best friends to lovers, but I was fighting it, until the tsunami, because seriously, I watched Eddie go "there's nobody in this world I trust with my son more than you" after a situation where no one would blame Eddie if he needed time and I was done for. Then they just kept getting more insane about each other. I remember watching the will reveal and being like "wait, fuck me, are they gonna go there?" because they follow all the basic procedural slowburn tropes, and I started s5 being like 👀 about everything that was happening to them. Now that Buck is bi, I'm seriously 95% sure buddie is happening because all the elements are there. There is something very compelling about Buck and Eddie together when you look at the whole show and s7 really added to that. Settling for Buck in a relationship with someone who's clearly not that into him just because it's a queer relationship doesn't feel right when Eddie is right there.

[leaffsheep]

watching Sherlock for the first time ever and im currently on S2 Ep1 and let me tell you… the amount of jealousy radiating off John is insane… I actually can’t believe it

[scarrletmoon]

okay i know the Discourse™️ has been going on for way too long at this point, but

i think some people outside of the OFMD fandom don’t actually get why we’re particularly annoying about this show

OFMD is not the first queer show to ever exist. if anything, it's a late entry in decades of queer media. over a year and a half since the first few episodes aired, everyone knows that OFMD is queer. that doesn't make it particularly special

but back in March? this is the trailer that dropped in February of 2022, 2 weeks before the premier. if you're used to seeing queer chemistry in shows that aren't intended to be queer, you might see the hints between Ed and Stede here. but to most people? it's just a silly little pirate comedy. just guys being dudes. the trailer doesn't even hint at the other 2 canonical queer relationships in the show -- the closest it gets suggesting romance is the music and the pink in the poster

so when people watched this show in March 2022, they went into it expecting subtext and nothing else. to them, it was like watching Sherlock or Supernatural or Merlin in the 2010s. if you were in any of those fandoms -- especially Sherlock and Supernatural -- you know what it was like; constant jokes at our expense, being mocked for creating explicit fanwork, made fun of by the creators and within the show itself. if we saw queer subtext, that was our problem. this was a time when you pretended NOT to be in fandom, for fear of ridicule. we kept our fanwork to ourselves, we DID NOT share it with the cast, and we accepted that our favourite ships would probably never be canon. maybe one day, if we were lucky, we'd have a show where the subtext wasn't mockery as much as deliberate foreshadowing -- but that had to be YEARS away

right?

OFMD was never billed as a queer show, not in the beginning. there was no LGBTQ+ tag on (HBO) Max, it wasn't on anyone's list of upcoming queer shows in 2022, it flew under the radar through most of its first season. this was a show about pirates, and sure, some of them were queer. but not the LEADS. if you think they're romantically involved, that's must be fandom brain poisoning

except the 9th episode aired, and they kissed. and the show said "you're not crazy for thinking they have chemistry because they really do. it's been a romance this whole time". and in the 10th episode, Stede realizes that he's in love

(not mandating you watch this clip if you don't care for the show, but there's something that feels particularly earth shattering about no one saying the word gay but knowing that Stede's realizing he is, that it's completely unambiguous and explicit in a way that only straight romances are usually allowed to be)

this is why people freaked out about this show. no one knew. even the creator, David Jenkins, was surprised when WE were surprised that it was gay for real -- he set out to write a love story, using all the tried and true beats of a rom com. he'd never even heard of the term queerbaiting. he looked at historical Blackbeard and Stede Bonnet and thought "oh, there's something here" and just...wrote that, with very little fanfare, like it was inevitable. like it was obvious. of course Jim and Pam end up together. of course Buttercup and Westley end up together. what kind of disappointing ending would it be if You've Got Mail ended with the main characters just going their separate ways?

so of course Ed and Stede are in love

look, i get it. we're annoying and won't shut the fuck up about this show that seems mediocre at best. i watched the whole thing back in march, thought "huh, that was cool" and was sure that i'd forget about it in a few days

an hour after looking at fanart on twitter, i was lost in the fucking sauce

there's just so much to unpack from a mere 10 episodes. it covers racism, toxic masculinity, gender expression, sexuality, trauma and abuse. and i don't think we should overlook the fact that the non-white characters in this show get to be fully human in a way i haven't seen in my favourite shows in recent memory

additionally, most OFMD are 25 or older. we're not people who've been spoiled by queer rep, who don't get how hard it used to be, how you'd have to grovel for scraps, how shipping and fanfiction was a way to find queer rep where we thought there never would be. we've been here. we're annoying about this show because for a lot of us, it's the first time we've been treated like our queerness isn't an anomaly that needs to be relegated to its own section, that needs to be praised for the bare minimum of acknowledging that we exist. it's not pulling punches to avoid scaring away a straight audience. it just is.

OFMD for me is like when i watched Black Panther for the first time and realized that this is what white people felt all the time. have there been other black superhero movies? of course! does Disney fucking suck? BOY does it. but that was the first time i got to sit in a movie theater and watch a mainstream film that looked at Africa and said "look at how beautiful you are, exactly as you are"

and idk. i think that's really cool

[tootalltech]

I JUST FUCKING FINISHED LAB RATS: ELITE FORCE AND. IT ENDS? LIKE THAT?????? I KNEW IT WAS ONLY ONE SEASON bc lets be real you cant beat lab rats and god knows wth theyre doing with the writing in elite force BUT THE CLIFFHANGER???? like i knew i was coming up on the last episode. i was perfectly aware of that. I THOUGHT THE THING WITH ROMAN AND RIKER WAS GOING TO BE RESOLVED. LIKE. HELLO. amazing to me that the writers of that show were so confident theyd get renewed for a second season that they just let the finale end like that.

i also just couldnt look at roman properly the entire show bc thats just jay from descendants. thats just booboo stewart. disney has like 5 actors and its okay <3 but thats just him.

i also desperately need someone to explain what the thing with chase and kaz is to me. dont get me wrong, i dont dislike either of them or the ship itself. i love chase. and i dont know mighty med very well but kaz is silly. i understand they could have a dynamic going on. but like. where. did it come from. what evidence is there. in the show. i was expecting so much more based off what ive seen on here. like i was ready to be at least A Little queerbaited. i think there might be more evidence for chase and sebastian guys im SO sorry but if anyone wants to try and tell me something i missed then feel free!

[bluemagi]

Re. Jumping ship and multishipping

I've been thinking a lot about this these past few weeks, since a certain hot pilot swooped in and stole my heart. I've seen people giving other people shit for "giving up" and jumping ship, for multishipping or even just for liking and enjoying a character. And it's just weird to me how people are so obsessed with controlling other people's behaviors. Just the other day I saw a TikTok where the creator was saying that people who "jumped ship" to Bucktommy were just fetishising because they want to see two guys kissing. Which is just... a terrible take on so many levels.

I was a Buddie shipper too. I enjoyed their on-screen relationship, I saw the signs that there might be more than friendship, and I hoped that something might happen. But I have also been in fandoms for at least 20 years by now. I've been through queerbaiting, I have been through shipbaiting, I have been through relationships I previously loved being destroyed by what happens on screen. I know that nothing is promised and that we have to have realistic expectations. Our interpretations of things are usually not what the writers/actors/directors/editors intend, and so we can always hope, but we have to know that we probably won't get what we want.

I think I grew a bit bored with the Buddie ship around season 5. I was watching queer representation in other shows, like Tarlos in Lone Star, and I couldn't see 911 ever go there, especially as time went on and nothing happened, there were no obvious signs. I didn't think they would ever make Buck or Eddie queer. I still enjoyed the show for what it was and would watch when I had the time, but I wasn't obsessing over it anymore. I would watch the show and hope that either one of them would get an interesting love interest (I actually sort of liked Natalia at the end of season 6), and until that happened, I would just enjoy Buddie outside of that, in fan fictions and Tumblr discourse.

So imagine my surprise when they finally did it, when they actually made Bi Buck canon. Since Tommy had been on the show before, we already knew a lot about him, and we could also read into the difference between s2 Tommy and s7 Tommy and see that there had been a lot of development there. So yeah, I was immediately interested. The more I saw, the more interested I became. So while I can still love and appreciate Buddie, it is far more interesting to me to have actual substance with an on-screen relationship, rather than having to try to interpret and read into every interaction to see if it can relate to Buddie.

But, back to jumping ship and multishipping. I've been thinking back through my fandom history, and I realized that this is something I have gone through several times before, in one way or another. I started out with soap operas, and in those, everyone cheats and nobody is ever happy for long, so jumping ship back and forth happens. Suddenly a character is killed, only to come back to life several years later. They completely change personalities, they change faces (new actors), so things change a lot. I suppose that might be why multishipping and jumping ship is not really an issue for me. It just make sense that you can change your mind about something when more content comes out. It's sort of like a relationship. You can be happy and in love for a while, or for a long time, but things change, people grow, and suddenly that relationship is not right for you anymore.

So I was thinking back on my previous experiences with jumping ship and multishipping, and I just scribbled down some thoughts on them. Starting with....

As The World Turns - Nuke vs. LuRe

I think one of the first times I jumped ship, was from Noah/Luke to Luke/Reid in As The World Turns. An American soap that ended in like 2011. Nuke were one of the first gay male couples on American day time TV, and if you have the time, please go read about them on Wikipedia, because their story is absolutely ridiculous and overdramatic, as most soap couples are. And since this was in the 00s / early 10s, they barely shared any kisses or intimacy. At certain points we were counting the days between their on-screen kisses, and I think we went 200 days without an on-screen kiss while they were in a romantic relationship on the show, and the first time they had sex, I think they just kissed and fucking jumped on the bed or something. It was just ridiculous. But it was representation, which there was not a lot of back in those days.

Then, my beloved Reid Oliver came into the picture. He was out and proud, he was confident, successful, unapologetic, he was just very interesting. Luke/Noah was young love, riddled with insecurity and drama. Luke/Reid was more confident, more adult. And also, it was an option! Back in those days, there were barely any queer characters on TV, and now there were three guys in one show. At the point when Reid came on to the show, I was already finding myself growing tired and annoyed with Nuke, and Noah specifically. So when he showed an interest in Luke and they began their relationship, I happily jumped over.

I was then punished by the show's cancellation and that fucking train, but that's beside the point.... Moving on!

Days of Our Lives - Will, Sonny and Paul

Now this was a fun one! I remember watching Days back when I was in elementary school. My friend and I would go home together from school and watch it before doing home work. I was better in English and in reading than her, so I would be reading the subtitles out loud to her so she could keep up with what was happening. I think Days actually helped me to learn English much better. So I remembered all the drama with Sami, Carrie, Lucas and Austin, and with baby Will. And it was a bit shocking to me when suddenly baby Will was an adult (or I guess in his late teens) and was coming out of the closet. This was around the same time as ATWT, I believe, around 2010, so again, there wasn't a lot of representation on TV.

Also, side note, this was before streaming was a thing, and I lived in Norway, so we didn't even have access to everything. I had to buy DVDs to watch stuff like Queer as Folk and The L Word.

Anyways, Will and Sonny became a couple, and with that, the first male same sex couple on the show. It was the only real option, so of course I shipped it. I am again reading the Wikipedia page for this couple, and their story is quite insane. They recast the role of Will at one point, and I didn't love how the character changed after the actor was changed. So when Paul came on the show, I was immediately drawn to him. His back story was interesting and the actor had amazing chemistry with everyone. So I shipped him with both Will and Sonny (and both versions of Will, tbh). And again, you simply must read the Wikipedia article about this. It was just pure insanity.

Supernatural – Dean, Cas, Benny

We cannot talk about shipping without talking about Destiel. It is simply not possible. I'm not even going to explain anything, because we're on Tumblr, everyone knows Destiel. So unsurprisingly, I am a Destiel shipper. I can't remember when I first started shipping them, but it must have been quite early. Probably not in season 4 when Cas first arrived, but probably in season 5.

So Destiel is an example where I haven't jumped ship, but instead, I have multishipped. Cas has unfortunately not really had any real love interest outside of Dean. I honestly can't even think of any, apart from that random woman he married when he had amnesia, which... just no, dude. But Dean however, he has had some options, and I haven't hated them.

Lisa, I loved her back in the early seasons. And when he went to live with her after season 5, I didn't hate it. I knew the chances of Destiel ever happening were slim to none, so I could enjoy Dean and Lisa together on screen while enjoying Dean and Cas in fan fictions.

Later, we met Benny. And I immediately loved him. He was so interesting, he had such an interesting relationship with Dean, and I was so mad when he died. Again, Dean was never shown to be anything but straight, so again, chances of anything happening here was also slim to none. But I could happily enjoy fan fictions and content on them, alongside with Destiel.

Other honorable mentions:

I was considering writing a whole section about Robron from Emmerdale, but I realized that I am still so pissed off about that whole thing, so I don't think I'd be able to articulate anything good from that. So instead I will just use this as an example of an on-screen couple that I absolutely loved, but that I ended up hating and abandoning due to what happened on screen. I jumped that ship straight into the ocean, and swam far far far away.

Klaine! The couple that got me into Tumblr in the first place! I loved Kurt from the first season, and I was so intrigued when Blaine came into the show (I was also a huge AVPM fan, so that just made it all the better). And I really enjoyed them together for the first couple of seasons. But thinking back, I think I fell out of love with them quite early on. Their stories didn't hit the same, it got boring. I was actually more interested in Karofsky by the time I stopped watching the show, which was probably part of the reason why I stopped watching. It was quite the unpopular opinion back then. Maybe still? I have no idea.

Gallavich! I loved Shameless back in the day, and Mickey and Ian were among my favorites. But at a certain point, I got fed up with it all and stopped watching. The on-and-off stuff got boring, important things got swept under the rug, and I didn't like the treatment of Mickey. Anyway, I gave up and stopped watching. It was only years later when the show was ending that I caught up and found out they actually ended up together. Which was amazing, but still left a bit of a sour taste in my mouth.

Anyways, my point is that there seems to be this opinion now that if you ship a couple, you are stuck with them for life. Jumping ship, or even multishipping, is seen as a betrayal, as something horrible. Shipping Buck and Tommy apparantly means that we hate Eddie, and that we don't care about the beautiful friendship and relationship Buck and Eddie have. But that is simply not the truth. At least not for me, or for most people I have seen discussing this.

At this point in time, I am going to enjoy the beautiful on-screen relationship that is Buck and Tommy, and I am excited to see where it goes. If that relationship ends, and somewhere down the line, Buck and Eddie finally end up together, I will probably be happy (as long as it is done right, like Oliver Stark himself has said).

[ok-sims]

Good Omens 2 and playing with expectations

so I watched good omens for the first time in like 2020, had a blast but didnt really think about it again until s2 came out.

and now i realize that one of the things that caused me this obssession brain rot this time around is just how the whole season, but specially the ending, completely subverted my expectations, yet everything that happened is extremely coherent with season 1.

crowley has been asking aziraphale to run away with him for quite some time now. and aziraphale has been "choosing" heaven over him.

smaller things are very coherent too. crowley and taking part in nebula/planet/starmaking. aziraphale and forgiveness. crowley being "unforgivable". alpha centauri.

how can such a coherent finale surprise and smite me so much?

I guess part of it is the queerbait that many fandoms have been subjected to, historically (I was very much into sherlock back in 2014-2017, so you can see where I am coming from...)

but another part is how the final fifteen have a very different tone to the rest of the series. of course, there are some heavy moments in both seasons (the Golgotha being the main one), but those were taken from the biblical lore and not directed to aziraphale and crowley. while there is some drama between them in s1, it is never really serious .crowley was devastated when he thought aziraphale was dead, but we (the audience) knew he was fine. soon, they reunited and faced the end of the world together. there was the fight over holy water in the flashbacks, but we see then make up in the very next scene. so our expectations were set to having crowley and aziraphale have their conflits to be: silly and/or quickly resolved.

I guess that, along the fact that their feelings now have an undeniable romantic nuance confirmed to them, was my fall down the rabbit hole.

I did not expect the series to acknowledge so clearly, very much on screen, the romantic connection between them. before that, this was really heavy subtext, but the leap to text is still pretty uncommom in similar works. even more rare is having the characters kiss, because it leaves no room for subtext anymore. it changes the dinamic between the characters, as well as the perspective of the audience. tv often runs from this sort of change, because it is a risk, but I'm very glad the show took that risk and went with it without looking back.

the risk of changing the tone (even if just for the final fifteen) is also often avoided. "is this show not a comedy?" "isnt everything fine at the end?" so we were left with our expectations completly subverted in both aspects. and yet it all makes sense with everything good omens has showed us before. we were blindsided by the expectations that were firmly constructed for us, the audience, but the ending played out in consonance with the narrative built all through seasons 1 and 2. aziraphale creates situations just to have an excuse to see crowley. crowley is always coming to aziraphale's rescue, no matter what trouble this may give him in hell. btw, crowley could not care less for hell or heaven. "we can go off together, angel". "listen to yourself".

s1 and s2 are so very much in line. I'm glad good omens had the courage to take the leap and subvert everything we were expecting: be it subtext to remain subtext, or a comedy to have its conflit being easily resolved in time for the credits to roll in. and it did it all while making perfect sense for the narrative, with no last minute ill-planned plot twists. it's no wonder we haven't been normal about it since july: when was the last time you watched something like this?

[kajaono]

Re:the recent Sherlock/OFMD controversy

The point is: I was so excited for season 4. I never expected to see Sherlock and John lock lips, I was not dumb. I knew we weren’t there yet. I mean we still aren’t there yet *sigh*

But I honestly always thought we would get a textual love confession of some kind and them moving in together again. That season 4 would mean leaving the heteronormativity and ambiguity behind

And then I watched season 4 and I was just shocked. Yeah there were a lot of shipping wars but eventually we all were excited for season 4. for different reasons, but still. But then season 4 just contradicted everything we loved about the characters.

It was like Mofftiss saw all of our theories and said: „we are more clever“ and hence they went more extrem with literally everything, so in the end they managed to make most fans mad

And from a queer POV, it is so frustrating. BBC Sherlock was such a huge chance for canon Johnlock, a world wide beloved show with a more or less textual queer ending? Like Korrasami. Especially back then it would have been such a huge chance and instead we got… this!

This still leaves me bitter

Why couldn’t they out Mary as Moran?

Why couldn’t Molly get the independence she deserved?

Why couldn’t John and Sherlock move back in together and raise a daughter together?

Why couldn’t Moriarty be back?

Why couldn’t season 4 not be entirely placed in Victorian England?

Why did John had to beat up Sherlock in the mourge?

Why kill off the Three Garrdiebs?

Why Redbeard?!

If I am being so annoying about OFMD and GO it is because I knew that not long ago we had to face to most horrible queerbaiting and see yet another gay character being killed off (Cas and Eve). I know how easily writers get annoyed by their fans and own characters.

This why i think we have to be loud and annoying and keep on showing that you can not just toy with queer people like you want to.

[vole-mon-amour]

3x11, part 2, RJK edition.

oh my god, just make out already, you two. Jamie is so fucking sad, who fucking hurt him, I wanna hurt them back.

Jamie is on the verge of tears, can't Roy fucking see it??? LOOK INTO HIS EYES AND SEE IT.

That is probably the most mature and concerned reaction I've ever seen from Roy towards Jamie. Like when he hugged him in s2, it was great. But here he's actually trying to TALK about it. He's genuinely concerned and interested in what's going on.

EMMY WINNER PHIL DUNSTER WHEN?????? Jfc. Just hug the boy, Roy.

;_____; Sharing trauma aka I've been thrown into Sunflowers and Amsterdam again. BEST FRIENDS.

Ok. This is ok. I'm okay. There was a glimpse where the kiss could've happened and Jamie could've continued wailing and it would WORK. Roy wouldn't even say a thing bc Jamie is a mess and it might now mean anything, and if it did, they can talk about it later.

Anyway. Jamie going in for a hug FIRST bc he trust Roy and he feels safe around him and he feels okay about physical intimacy and being vulnerable with him now. I wanted my hug & I guess this is the closest I can get to that one in 2x06. And with Jamie crying again. Ohhh my god.

The poor boy needs a vacation with both Roy and Keeley (and a lot of sex and love from them). I'd say RoyJamie only, but it's more likely at this point that ot3 happens instead of otp.

Well, it's close to Will walking in on Roy and Jamie kissing. Almost.

I'm fucking staying here. I don't need anyone else. I'm staying here and going down with this ship. Jamie full on can do whatever he wants at this moment & Roy would probably allow him. The hands interlinked on Roy's back, Jamie's head going from Roy's shoulder into the crook of Roy's neck. They really are best friends. Jamie feels so comfortable and safe with him. Putty in his hands, huh?

And I can't fucking keep quiet about Phil pulling this off. Like... MY GOODNESS, GIVE HIM ALL THE FUCKING AWARDS. It makes me sad but at the same time I can't stop laughing, and I'm sure this was the intention. Bc this dramatic wailing is truly something.

At the same time, "I can't sleep, and I can't eat" is a serious sign of depression or at least a serious burnout. Get Jamie a therapist and some quality time break from all the stress.

"Jamie is a mess & I gotta help him."

Keeley is so excited she gets to help Roy with Jamie. This is very ot3 of you. I gotta say though, Roy has to learn how to talk and communicate. It's all fun and all, the idea of when there's a miscommunication or Roy unable to go to emotional depths, but it's really important. In the previous ep he watched Jamie and came up with the right words for Keeley. In here he went to Keeley so she could help him with Jamie. I see a pattern, but I'd love Roy to act on it. Saw Keeley maybe, came up with the right words, knew how to act with Jamie, went back to help.

But then I expect both of them to go back to Jamie and help, so also very ot3 of them.

Jamie and his rings. Jamie being so many fans fav player. Jesus, I love this kid so. fucking. much. Get him into therapy again, please.

"How's he doing?" "Fucking hell." "I'll talk to him."

For a show that gives so many queer references, it would be weird if they were queerbaiting us tbh. It's possible, but it's still weird, especially with so many queer characters.

For the reference.

IF NOT OT3, THEN WHY THIS. They're gonna drive me insane.

[matan4il]

Hello!

I saw your post where you spoke about the 911's cast and writers being aware of Buddie, and the explicit support from some of the cast for Canon!Buddie.

I am quite new to the fandom and so I was wondering if there were any links you could source for this? I am genuinely curious :)

Funnily enough, I started 911 after loving LS, and saw a lot of buddie content on 911 blogs. I figured it was typical queerbaiting (tumblr 2012 era was ✨️ traumatising ✨️ and so resolved not to ship them.

But then I watched the show and yeah…there were definitely interesting choices made that make Buddie such an intricately beautiful ship. It's a slow burn to rival all slow burns :fire:

Needless to say, I'm now 100% on board!

Hi lovely Nonnie and welcome to the fandom! :D I hope you enjoy everything about it and I am so glad to hear you're on board! *hugs*

Okay, for links... TBH I mostly remember things as they happen, I'm less into saving links, but for you I made the effort, I traced my own steps (who knew I actually remembered where I yelled about certain things two and a half years ago? The power of Buddie), and found the source to the stuff I had in mind when I said Ryan, Oliver, JLH and Gavin have all shown support for Buddie. Her we go...

Let's start with Gavin! Obviously it was explained to him in age-appropriate terms, so take that into account, but still, look at how pure his response is (interview from Oct 2021):

And then they went and they filmed the lasagna scene in 601. You can't tell me that doesn't mean anything!

Now Oliver and Ryan have both expressed support for Buddie more than once, for example you can find my post showing how they were the ones who named our ship! In terms of official interviews, they've mostly given answers that are noncommittal but supportive, stuff along the lines of making sure they don't raise fans' expectations (in case it doesn't happen), but also letting us know they do like the enthusiasm for Buddie, and would be cool if 911 went that way. So most are kind of... let's say diplomatic. I will, however, throw in this live that Ryan did where at first, he had a few answers of that vanilla sort (encouraging the shippers, not promising anything, leaving room for Buddie to happen, but also leaving room for fans who don't want Buddie, and sort off summarizing with, "We'll see what Tim writes"). But then he got a question about Abby and I don't think he could help it, the Buddie shipper just jumped out of him, which I love. I edited and uploaded it to YouTube for you, since stupid Tumblr only allows me to directly upload one vid a post here:

Lastly, but maybe my personal fave, in May 2020, a gay fan of JLH uploaded to his personal IG account a video that he asked her to film with a message for his husband's bday. Here's the relevant part of the vid which I've edited and uploaded for you, where JLH is basically being all of us:

BTW, this is also a reply to the Nonnie who sent this ask:

I know about Ryan, Oliver and JLH but when did Gavin say anything about that?

I hope I managed to answer both of you! Have a great day, and as always, here's my ask tag.

[adorablenerdcat]

Crossroads 8/CR8

So we knew, as soon as Creepy Uncle Misha was announced as "headliner" (I use that term loosely obviously) that we were in for a Heller con. It's a shame that Creepy Uncle Misha running his lying, inappropriate, queerbaiting, crowdpleasing, showboating mouth has overshadowed the whole con but here we are. I paid for a pic and an auto from him, and I honestly wish I hadn't. The auto was a scribble and thank you, no interaction, no eye contact, no smile. Pretty much the same with the pic. He was the only celeb that was like this. It's like he only switches on when he's the centre of attention. Who knew?! (Oh, us. We did)

So I'm not getting into the crap he spouted, and I'm just going to give you my favourite bits from all the panels I went to and the celebs I met. I haven't laughed as much as I did this weekend in an age!

*Firstly, Mark Shepperd is an amazing human being. He's as gruff, rude, bossy, dry, funny and adorable as you'd expect. He told me off twice. I loved it! And I love him ❤️

*Same with Rob Benedict. Had a lovely chat with him about the podcasts and his and Ruth's baby. He sang Fare Thee Well and Creep in the final panel, it was goosepimply hauntingly beautiful. Utterly magical.

*Am now a little bit in love with Tomer Capone. He was humble, gorgeous, funny and an all round lovely guy. Gives amazing hugs too!

*Karen Fukahama was tiny and gorgeous. She's really funny and I adored her. Such fun on her and tomers panels. Cannot wait till Season 4 of the Boys. No spoilers, but it sounds EPIC!!!!

*AlCal was also a lovely hugger! I asked for a Jack wave but he decided we were hugging instead so that was a bit special. Also felt quite sorry for him in one of his panels as there was some kind of weirdo who asked him if he'd found a black feather...very strange and stalkery.

*Jim Beaver was exactly how you'd expect him to be. He called me darlin' on multiple occasions. Life made lol. His panels with Steven Williams were one of the highlights of the weekend. Those two need a podcast together. So so funny.

*Cindy Sampson was my biggest surprise. Wasn't overly keen on Lisa at all in the show, like many people. Cindy is a bloody joy. She has no filter, just like me! She was brilliant, loved meeting her.

*Special mention for hilarity goes to the start of the Alcal, Rob and Creepy Uncle Misha panel. In passing, someone said "oh no, he didnt". If you know anything about the British, you'll probably know what happened next. (If you don't, Google British pantomime!) It descended quickly into a traditional panto back and forth, but our US friends had no clue at all what was happening. Bless Ruth for educating Rob in our cultural heritage, he was able to explain it to the others. Left most of the audience cry laughing.

Anyway, I'm knee deep in conflu so I'm about to go to bed, but any questions at all about the con, please ask! Even if you just want a chat, I'm around x

[billpottsismygf]

Good Omens Spoilers

Okay, wow. It's going to take me a while to fully process that, and I definitely won't until I've rewatched it at least once. It has a very different feel to series 1. There are fewer disparate characters, especially human characters, like Shadwell, Anathema, etc., which I did rather miss; the lack of a narrator weirdly changes the tone quite a lot in itself; and, perhaps most significantly, there’s a real mystery that the audience are not let in on, in contrast to us in series 1 watching Aziraphale and Crowley search for a boy we already know the identity of.

Maggie and Nina are nice, and I really enjoyed the obvious parallels to Aziraphale and Crowley (the line about sheltering under a downpour especially felt very relevant), but I’m also not sure they merited as much screentime as they got. I am really glad that their story didn’t end with them dramatically falling in love with each other, as I found the idea that Maggie was really in love with Nina a bit suspect - they’ve clearly barely talked before we meet them. The open ended question of their relationship obviously mirrors Aziraphale and Crowley too.

And now the elephant in the room: that ending was devastating. The end of series 1 is so effective and moving because we finally see Aziraphale and Crowley get to be together on their own terms. Here, it’s completely undone. I love the little subtleties of the Metatron’s look at Crowley as he leaves the bookshop with Aziraphale - he knew Crowley would never accept an offer to be an angel again.

On the one hand, I believe that Aziraphale would accept the offer, and that he would think Crowley would want to come with him, as he’s always been the one most hesitant to distance himself from the Heaven/Hell dichotomy, and to commit to his partnership with Crowley.

On the other hand, has he learnt nothing? I thought he understood by this point that Heaven did not always have the best of intentions. And he’s just seen what happened to Gabriel when he refused to toe the line, a punishment that the Metatron himself was involved with doling out. Does Aziraphale somehow think he’ll have more control? What will he do when he’s inevitably asked to do something that contradicts his own morals? He can’t think that won’t be a problem.

Like I say above, it’s not that it’s out of character for Aziraphale to accept the offer. It’s more that it’s a step backwards in character, and feels perhaps a little artificial. It’s the hand of the writer, putting in the equivalent of that beat in a romcom when the characters have a falling out. Our other mirrors for them, Gabriel and Beelzebub, get to run off happily together, so we can probably expect the stereotypical reunion too.

And we now of course have our context for The Spoiler. It’s a lot more devastating than I think anyone was expecting. I know there’s been a lot of Discourse around queerbaiting, and I have read perspectives on that that I can understand, but it’s never been queerbaiting in my opinion. I sometimes wish that things could be allowed (and I mean by the fandom crowd, not by the mainstream) to be subtle and achingly unspoken, to be queer in theme and context, and also perhaps to allow for non-normative manifestations of queer love (asexual/queerplatonic/etc.). 

However, the kiss changes none of that. I am glad that Aziraphale and Crowley are now queer in a way in which mainstream audiences can’t miss. I sort of wish it didn’t have to be that way but, after all, a kiss is not an inherent barrier to other queer readings, and it works so well in the context of the scene. It’s Crowley’s last-ditch attempt to demonstrate what they could be, without words, and it fails. It’s heart-breaking.

As to the future of the show and their relationship, we’ll have to wait and see. There’s a possibility that we won’t get a series 3 at all, in which case this is a dreadful place to end, and I really do hope that doesn’t happen. Ultimately, this series was a little unsatisfying, but Neil Gaiman always said that it was an intermediary, the lead up to the real next part of the story, and we’re just going to have to cope with that. Here’s hoping we don’t have to cope for too long!

Misc smaller things

I wasn’t sure about re-casting characters, but I actually loved the new actor for Beelzebub. Much as I adore Anna Maxwell Martin, I think she was perhaps slightly mis-cast originally. The visual effects and costuming around them were also much improved.

Miranda Richardson is amazing. Again, I wasn’t sure about her playing a totally different character, but she completely sells it. I love the clipped way she speaks, her mannerisms, all of it. She completely embodies Shax and not for a moment did she make me think of Madam Tracy.

I loved Muriel. Just very sweet and adorable and funny. No notes.

I also loved all the little references to things. The appearance of several Terry Pratchett books (The Colour of Magic and Good Omens specifically) and nods to his worlds - in particular, I got really excited about the seamstresses’ guild getting a wink. 

There were many, many Doctor Who references as well. I know they all had outrageous fun having Crowley referred to as “Doctor”, and that he got to use a Scottish accent (though a bit posher than David Tennant’s actual accent).

On that note, the extended flashbacks were wonderful. The Elspeth stuff was maybe a little on the nose, but I loved seeing them run around Georgian Edinburgh (which was so surreal, because it looks identical to modern Edinburgh). The stuff with Job was especially enjoyable, and I still can’t quite believe we got to see the aftermath of the church bombing.

[happyfeetfuryroad]

You know what's weird?

The last minutes of Good Omens 2 episode 6 should have made me feel sad and frustrated, like the ending of season 1 of OFMD did a year ago. And yet, something is different this time.

Now, I would love to be able to tell that I remember the euphoria of being surprised to see Edward and Stede's kiss, but unfortunately I started watching the show after having all the important plot points spoiled, so while I was still absolutely delighted by it, I wasn't caught off guard like many other people were.

With Good Omens 2, I was only mildly spoiled, and I didn't know any details on what was going to happen in the final episode. The possibility of a kiss was kinda hanging out in the back of my mind, but I wasn't convinced that it would actually happen - and I knew that the ending was going to be angsty, so I was keeping my expectations relatively low.

But. Goddamn. When it actually happened, it was fucking electrifying.

It's weird because, I was never that deep into the ineffable husbands fandom to begin with. I'd read the book and watched season 1 and enjoyed them both, and it was pretty obvious to me that Aziraphale and Crowley were queer (Neil Gaiman never denied this, so it was an unusually drama-free situation too). I never really thought their relationship would escalate any further, because they were already self-evidently together and I didn't think they needed to "prove" it (and I still stand by this btw, I think in a healthy media ecosystem there is a place for subtle queerness that doesn't require any grand romantic gestures to prove its existence). So I kinda left it at that.

Then I started watching season 2, and I started feeling a specific kind of déjà vu. They (and by "they" I mean mostly Crowley) were doing the whole "side character calls them a couple and they adamantly deny it" act that was a signature of 2010s era queerbaiting (Sherlock being a particularly egregious example). However, I knew for a fact that Neil Gaiman wasn't queerbaiting - again, he had never denied the fact that Good Omens is, among other things, a love story, and there hadn't been a single no homo joke that you would expect from a queerbaiting writer - so I just kind of waved it off as a throwaway joke and forgot about it.

And then episode 6 came about. And Crowley began to tear up as he tried to let Aziraphale know how he felt about him.

Oh.

And then he and Aziraphale started arguing with each other about their future, and the tension started to build.

Oh.

And then Crowley said "you idiot. We could have been us."

OH-

And then the music swelled into an epic dramatic choir as Crowley angrily stepped closWAY TOO CLOSE AND-

And I... can't describe the rush of pure dopamine and adrenaline that I felt watching this scene unfold. It was unreal. My heart was pounding out of my goddamn chest. It felt fake. It had to be fake. This is the kind of shit that only ever happens in fanfiction. It was too good to be true.

Then the rest of the finale happened and it was awful but that's besides the point

And even though in a way it was the same feeling of "holy shit, they actually made the main characters kiss" I had with Edward and Stede, this was also very different.

See, Edward and Stede kissed in the same season they got introduced in, and there was no original material that the show was based on (I'm not counting the real life pirates because OFMD is a very loose interpretation anyway). You couldn't really know what you were getting into, so the protagonists completely skipped the queercoded part and jumped straight into "literal protagonists of a romcom" territory.

Aziraphale and Crowley, on the other hand, were already existing characters, in a book and a TV show where their relationship was already established as "queer enough for anyone who pays attention, but subtle enough for a casual viewer to be able to ignore it". Their kiss in season 2 wasn't there to confirm that they love each other, but to make it clear that there is passion in their love. There's that raw, visceral attraction that queer people are so often discouraged from displaying in public because it's seen as uniquely dirty or inappropriate (or predatory, when it's two people perceived as male).

And it's happening late enough into the story that a lot viewers who may be like "I'm fine with gays so long as it's not in my face" will be forced to digest it - but also early enough into the story that we have an opportunity to see how Crowley and Aziraphale's love story unfolds now that the chips are truly down. Which is why, personally, I was happy to see season two end on a cliffhanger.

So yeah. I think I'll go watch that scene for the twentieth time today.

[texasbama]

just to be real for a min, how would you feel if they did officially pair Eddie up with Marisol and Buck with Natalia at the end of the season? to me that would be a sure sign that they were always just kinda throwing out the hidden buddie crumbs just for our small section of the fandom where the color stuff etc would fly over the GAs heads but keep us interested enough to tune in forever, despite them never really planning on a follow through. Don’t want to be negative but my heart is saying they’re gonna het things up the final two episodes for the GA and maybe throw a final buddie crumb somewhere there since the backlash from fandom is going to be intense and they’ve got to know it. Queerbait etc thrown right and left even though I never really thought they were telling a slow burn since they never even confirmed one of them being anything but straight the entire show.

Baby idk what to tell you. You are gonna feel how you feel regardless of what I have to say lol

I know what my expectations are in regards to these final two episodes(Buddie wise). I expect nothing lol I never do tbh I also know that TPTB probably knew there was a chance this could be the end of the show so the finale will reflect that.

Once we see the final product, feel however you want to feel. Don’t let people acting like condescending pricks cause they think this season was perfect, make you feel invalid. If you like it, great! If its not your favorite season, thats cool too.

Im honestly looking forward to the finale for everyone but the boys tbh. madney proposal, chim whump? The Lees are back? All of it has me very 👀👀👀

[hoennislands]

I have so many thoughts about everything going on in NJPW and The Boyz My Bestiez but I am so behind with the shows and I just don’t feel like watching wrestling 🥲 and I don’t really want to give my opinions until I see the Ospreay match and the WTL matches because I think it’ll change them but my thought from watching results and reactions are:

For what I’ve seen at least, it seems that Ren was playing sidekick for Shota for a while now and out of the 3 of them it was Ren who didn’t really have much going on with him like Shota and Yota. Ren’s also the only one who didn’t get an IWGP US match w Ospreay. I was always thinking I felt kind of bad for him because he’s just there and he’s always catching strays from fans (can’t speak for Japanese ones though).

The turn makes Ren very interesting to me, I can’t wait to see what happens next for him. I think he’s very well suited to be a heel and I think he’ll do a great job with it. House of Torture is controversial and I usually skip their matches (I guess I can’t anymore rip….) but Ren doesn’t feel like someone who will play the heel the way HoT are. He can be the more serious/“straight” man out of them idk. I’m looking forward to it all

As for Shota… lol, my boy has been TAKING A LOT OF L’s lately. I did say in a previous post that Ren and Shota hate each other and they will continue to and the beef will be generational (in the end I was right!) I was surprised when the Best of 7 Series ended in a tie and everyone shook hands. And I was anticipating that these would be their respective teams at their tag leagues (right again!) and they would go on to win or at least be in the finals (lol). Then Shota challenged Ospreay which… confused me? As he’s already lost to him 2? 3? Times? I never expected him to win or to challenge Mox at WK because I don’t believe he’s ready for that. I don’t think it’s his time. There will be a time he wins that title and/or go Over Mox but it’s not now.

To my opinion, Shota has quite a ways to go. And I knew that Ren and him were going to be at WTL which he couldn’t have done if he won. As I said before I haven’t watched the match but after many saw it, it convinced them that Shota is the future (which is amazing for him! I’m happy about that). I think he has great potential! Some deep conditioner and getting rid of that ugly ring gear and less corniness on Twitter and he can be unstoppable However, he’s still carrying Mox’s jacket, he’s still playing the role of the goody two shoes, while showing a bit of edge in the ring. He needs to improve and figure himself out and they need to settle on who he wants to be rather than Mox’s protege, next Tanahashi, etc etc. He is being hyped up and heavily promoted which I can understand but, he needs more for himself. I did predict that Ren would take the win over him in Best of 7 which would give Ren some confidence and send Shota (who is a bit entitled ngl) into a spiral but alas….

From Royal Quest to WTL, Ren has been playing secondary to Shota. It’s been Shota Umino… and his partner. It’s a disservice to Ren! I can understand Ren being frustrated about that! And then seems that Shota was pinned and it “cost” them the chance to advance. Shota was upset and felt he failed Ren who reassured him. And then Shota thanks ELP/Hikuleo for taking him out to eat? No Ren was right to be upset!

I’m just scratching my head at the outcome of all of this. They tie at the best of 7 and shake hands so this means they’ll be tag league partners. Shota challenges Ospreay again with an excellent performance but loses? So now he will move onto the Tag League with Ren. They get a fireside chat video with a splash of queerbait and fanservice. That means they gotta make it right? Apprently not…. They lose. Shota is upset but surprise! Ren betrays him. One of my guesses would be that one would betray the other. Not by joining HoT though…. So what’s next? How do we move from here?

And personally lol, I’m a bit sad if this means Ren will be the Heel of the 3. Yota being a dark ace? I have no idea what will happen with Yuya. But that leaves Shota as the babyface? I really want Shota to lean more into a meaner side of things. I want him to show more edge and attitude and entitlement he does it well. But with the Ren turn… I don’t know if this is still a possibility 🥲

I’m still holding hope that Yuya will upstage him and he’ll be mad about it but we shall see. We’ve got like…. 30 years of them <3 (cue internal panic as I’m the same age as Ren and Shota)

And also in regards to movesets, I know that Shota has been diversifying and adding new things since the Ospreay match which is great! Love that for him! But god I saw the word “Blaze Blade” and I rolled my eyes. *shaking Shota by the shoulders* Please do something other than ripping off other wrestlers PLEASE IM DESPERATE. Or else I’m deflecting!!!!!! I wonder what this means for WK. Ren v Shota singles? I think it’s unlikely we’ll see.

And also Ren being evil will be hot. We love a bad boy. Look at Sho. I’m aware of how people view HoT. I don’t really have much interest in them tbh. But I like Ren and I’m going to support his wrongs! This will benefit them both. I hope this makes Shota strive for more and gives Ren a good change <3

[centaurianthropology]

What ‘Our Flag Means Death’ Did for this Older Queer Fan

I’ve been trying to articulate what feels special about ‘Our Flag Means Death’ to me for a while.  I’ve been active in fandoms since the ‘90s, back when webrings were your best bet for good fan content.  I have seen a lot of shows come and go.  And I got very used to my fandom experience going something like this: find a new show or movie or book or other thing, write a lot of meta about character motivation and plot structure and costume choices, and often find a pairing I found appealing.  The chemistry was usually good, with variations on antagonistic, friendly, or other chemistry.  And if I was lucky, the show would drop a few hints that there was something there.  You learned very quickly to be grateful for scraps, and to never expect too much.  There was never, NEVER an expectation that a queer pairing would be ‘endgame’, or would ever be manifested in anything more than a few lingering glances and the actors and maybe a writer or two being all for the relationship EXCEPT. 

Except the producers, the studios, the audience.  It would never be accepted.  So it was confined to glances.  And that I understood.  I could appreciate that.  I knew that, if they could, those writers and those actors would have gone there, but gay marriage being legalized seemed like an impossibility, queer cinema was treated as niche or arthouse, and the only queer characters allowed on network shows had to be sidekicks who never had sex.

After that came the era of the queerbait.  Showrunners were more aware of fandom in the mid-2000s, and really wanted that sweet sweet audience retention.  So some shows started to lean into the possibilities of queer relationships.  They played up that things might happen between characters on screen.  It was no longer “we want to, but the network/producer won’t let us”; it was “maybe there is something there! *wink* *wink*”, only to turn around and inevitably claim that the audience misinterpreted, that there was nothing there and never had been.  It was somehow less than what we had in the ‘90s, because then at least we knew we were never getting anything, we knew that the writers had pushed something as hard as they could and they felt as shitty as we did that it wasn’t going to happen.  This was, well, bait.

And yet I don’t really think I understood that feeling of being baited, because I never got the canon queer ship on screen.  Whenever I saw the bait, as a fan who had been around and seen the talks in the ‘90s about queer rep on network TV, I knew that it was bait.  I knew that they would never follow through because everyone was convinced that two men kissing would end their television show.  So no matter how much they teased the audience, I knew it was lies, and I didn’t feel like it hit me as hard.  I told myself it didn’t hurt.

Now we’re in a new era where queer relationships are directly confirmed by creators, but there’s always still this halting before the final hurdle.  “These two men are in love,” they’ll say, but then turn around and say, “but it’s so elevated and pure and perfect that they would never sully it by smashing their faces together.  So they’re definitely in love guys!  Just don’t expect them ever to show that physically.”  Because gay love is now in vogue, but gay kissing and God forbid gay sex are still that bridge too far.  Even shows with great queer rep that aren’t explicitly billed as queer romances will stop before the kiss.  

And this doesn’t feel like asexual rep or an embracing of queerplatonic relationships, because it definitely doesn’t feel like they deliberately set out to write that.  No, it always feels like they wanted to have their cake and eat it.  They want the queer fans that will come to see a queer relationship, but they don’t want to lose those fans that they are still convinced will stop watching when two mens’ lips touch (it’s different for women, because straight men love lesbians, and so they get a pass for ogling reasons, which ...  is a whole different story, and a whole different long post, frankly).  

And then comes David fucking Jenkins, who seems like an impossibility.  He is an apparently straight white cis man in his forties.  He is the exact sort of demographic that you would never expect to deliver a meaningful queer story, or a story with explicitly anti-racist or anti-colonialist beats.  On first glance, he’s every other showrunner who’s tried to pull a fast one on queer audiences before.

But as this article shows, there was something different ticking away in his head.  He watched Star Wars and came away with the impression that Finn and Poe were the couple with chemistry.  He saw how fans treated Kelly Marie Tran and John Boyega and wanted to do better.  He’s almost blissfully unaware of the long history of queer fans getting ignored, then baited, then told that gay sex or kissing would ‘lessen’ such a wonderful relationship.

So he set out to write a queer sitcom about pirates.  And since it was a romcom, of course the two leads were going to kiss, because that was the point of a romcom.  That’s what the audience signed up for, and to turn around and give some bullshit line about how their mouths touching would lessen what they had was inherently ridiculous.  A romcom has specific beats, sure.  They were inevitably going to be separated by misunderstanding, but there was also an agreement with the audience that it wouldn’t be forever.  

And the kiss sealed that deal.  It showed that he had none of those weird hang-ups or beliefs that if he showed two men kissing, his show would be over.  And you know what?  He was more right than he could have ever imagined.  What he was doing was, in his head, simply following through with the agreement established by all romcoms.  It wasn’t remarkable or revolutionary.  It wasn’t until he was surprised that more people weren’t believing it was a romcom by the moonlit scene in episode 5 that he started to understand something was happening that he hadn’t been privy to before.  I think it was only after that that David Jenkins did a deep dive on queerbaiting, and realized how pervasive it was, how even the queer audiences weren’t willing to believe what was obvious on screen.  That, in the words of Lucius: “This is happening.”

And they didn’t believe it until the kiss, because that’s always the line that shows aren’t willing to cross.  When he stepped over that boundary he didn’t even know existed, he had an audience ready to go to war for him.  Because he had delivered.  There was no waffling, no bullshit.  He just delivered.  And after that, well ...

The audience flocked to him.  They campaigned, made cakes and Twitter storms and were unrelenting.  They were a groundswell for a show that had gotten no advertising, no buzz, no press before its airing.  It’s clear that HBO Max had the same old attitude that he had crossed the line with that kiss, and that the show would flop.  But it was the opposite, and instead of tanking his show, it got him a renewal.  

And I myself felt such a lightness in my heart after seeing that.  Even with the darker end the season had, I knew that this was a romcom, that our lovers would be reunited, get over their miscommunications, and would be together in a meaningful way.  David Jenkins had the idea, and then he filled his writers room with people to bring that idea to life, to push back and buy in.  Queer people, people of color, people of different cultures.  This is the move of a man who has a dream to write a diverse, queer story, and knows that he has a good idea for it, but also knows that he needs people who have lived those lives to help him avoid stumbling blocks that he never could have seen.

Seeing this leads to the extraordinary result of writing that is well aware of how queer characters and characters of color have been treated by the media, and how queer fans and fans of color have been treated too.  It also led to him going on his own journey of discovering, realizing why people reacted the way they did, why they were hesitant to believe he would deliver, and why they would fight so hard for his show when they did.  It was effervescent, like drinking champagne, to finally just ... have this.  For it to happen both with the writers knowing it was something special, and the showrunner not understanding why it wasn’t always so easy just to deliver these stories.  Just to see the chemistry and go for it.  Just to treat characters with respect and still let them be silly and ridiculous.  To have an entire world that feels queer friendly, beyond the queerness of the lead characters.

It only really hit me recently, when I heard that tired old excuse of “they love one another, but kissing or sex would cheapen that relationship, so they’re in love, but not in a sexual way”, and I was finally sick of it.  Because David Jenkins and his silly gay pirate show showed that it’s bullshit.  He showed that your audience booms when you finally set aside the fear of two men kissing, and just pay off the relationship.  When you embrace queerness not just in words, but in deeds.  It took OFMD to finally rip those tolerant blinders off me and for me to think, “Oh, just say that you don’t want to show two men kissing because you think whatever audience you have will think it’s gross.”  Just say it.  Just be honest instead of trying to parade this as a better form of queer representation.  I wouldn’t like you any more, but I would respect the honesty.

Finally getting what I always secretly wanted from a show--but would never admit that I wanted because I knew I would always be disappointed--has taken away my ability to tolerate whatever excuse showrunners trot out for not taking that final step.  OFMD opened my eyes.  It woke me up to realizing that I had spent twenty years pretending I wasn’t hurt when a show teased a relationship they never intended to pay off.  I haven’t felt so giddy about a show in years, and I have *never* felt so giddy about a queer genre show (because I’ve never seen one before that delivered so well on both being queer and on being genre)!  This was not a show billed as a romance, but a show about pirates, but it delivered such a lovely romance and such a lot of silly pirates!    

So thank you, David Jenkins.  As you went on your journey of discovery about queerbaiting and how it made you feel, I have been on a similar journey.  And you helped me get there.  You and your silly gay pirate show.

[jensensitive]

I’ve seen a lot of people saying that we just wanted Misha to be queer as some kind of way to write off people’s genuine hurt. And as someone who’s been in fandom since the beginning– of course we wanted them to be queer? Of course we did. Fans want to share things with people they’re fans of, and that’s perfectly normal, but it was also in part self-protection to want that, because if they’re not, then their jokes and their feelings were just cruel and painful. It doesn’t mean we were wrong, but no one is or was objective. The homophobes who hated the idea of Dean being bi weren’t any more objective than we were. We all came into everything with our own biases and our own wants and needs for validation and community and support, whether we were on the homophobic side or the gay side or somewhere in the middle. And that’s entirely normal and expected, that’s just what being human is. We all can only see things through our own eyes.

How queerness and fanfic and shipping is treated by the actors now is almost entirely irrelevant to anyone’s feelings about this, because the fandom didn’t just come into existence two years ago. It’s been built over the past sixteen years. Things that happened a decade ago shaped the fandom then and molded it into what it is and all its baggage and what people feel and think. When you have an actor calling people sick and pervs for writing slash, then fans of that person are going to want to see that in a way that makes it feel okay. And when the actor says well he’s a perv too, then you take that as the lifeline it is, and say “well, he’s one of us, surely” you see it less as being laughed at than being laughed with. You see not just an ally but someone who’s family, and that’s what you want him to be, of course it is, and that’s what feels right, and that’s the only way you know in your heart that you’d feel entirely okay with him joking like that and talking like that. 

Moreover this is true of when he’d talk and joke about Destiel in the show and Dean and Cas’s feelings for each other. We knew it would be fine if he was one of us, if he was with us, but if it was just a punchline, it’s like you’re a punchline, your queerness, your identity, this thing that’s so important to you. So that was even more reason to want to think of him as one of us, because we didn’t want to just be a punchline, we wanted him to be with us. Then he got so hurt by people saying he was queerbaiting. He got defensive of himself, he got emotional, almost crying over it, and we saw that as yet another reason to think he was one of us, and we didn’t want to just see him as a defensive straight man with a soft ego. He never, until this year, said he was straight, through all the years of people getting pissed at him for saying something wrong about destiel or queerness or representation or making a bad joke, he never once said he was straight, and many of us took that as confirmation that he wasn’t.

So yes, if he is straight, he has been hiding behind and leaning on being unlabeled to allow him to get away with more for years, and there’s no way he didn’t know that, because if he’s straight, that in and of itself has to be the reason he wanted to “wave off discussing his sexuality,” because he knows that he can’t say the same things or get away with the same blunders as a straight man as someone who’s unlabeled, that he’s held to different standards if everyone sees him as a straight man saying the same words.

And yes all of this, save perhaps the last paragraph, is also entirely true for Jensen. He has said and done some egregious things since the show started, and I personally wouldn’t want him to be straight for that reason. And especially in the earlier years, it was much easier to think of him as closeted than homophobic. Both of them have gotten better wrt potentially homophobic and uncomfortable jokes over the years, but as I said, all of that baggage would still be entirely there, knowing that all of it was just cruelty and thoughtlessness. It would absolutely feel like a betrayal. Along with the fact that, in the same way that it feels good and right to relate to them in being neurodivergent, it would feel very bad to suddenly not see them as something you felt you did relate to them with and that they could personally understand on some level.

There is always the issue of, as a fan, not wanting to come up with the negative possibilities in things. Misha’s in a hotel for a couple weeks, and you don’t jump to “he’s getting a divorce from the woman he’s been with his entire life,” that doesn’t even cross your mind as a possibility.

Misha repeatedly says he’s a top, and you don’t think “what if he’s not actually queer and just thinks gay sex is funny,” you think “oh, okay, I guess he’s a top because he keeps saying he’s a top” or possibly “sir, are you a bottom, why do you keep saying you’re a top.” And the same goes for a lot of the reasons people have thought and assumed Misha has been queer this whole time. He asks a fan if they like cock too, you don’t assume that he’s pretending, because why would you? He makes a joke about going both ways, you think he must be a bisexual man making a joke about himself not a straight man making a joke about bisexual people. He posts a throwback picture of his last night in jensen’s apartment on the last day of Pride month, and you don’t assume you’re being fucked with, you assume he’s just being sentimental and romantic. He’s obsessed with coming out and being closeted and uses it as a metaphor more than anyone you’ve ever seen, and you assume that’s for a personal reason not voyeuristic fascination. He calls Cas a “creepy, queer angel” and the other angels “normal” and you assume that since he’s always said he’s seen normal as a bad thing, that he must be saying this as a queer man himself.

There are of course many things in this same vein, not least of which, when someone you trust says that they’re bisexual, in a lighthearted manner or not, you’re going to take that to mean they’re bisexual, not treating it as a laughable idea. And then when someone you trust, a poet, agrees with someone saying that all poets are bisexual, you are of course going to think that this is them reiterating and confirming their sexuality, not just treating the whole idea of bisexuality as a punchline, because why would you.

He did this, he did all of this, not anyone else, just him.

This post is very rough so far, and I apologize. All of this is to say, it makes sense to be hurt, to still be hurt, to feel bad, to feel weird, to feel confused or conflicted. You want to take him at his word, but which word? Which time? When?

I don’t think it matters, morally, one way or the other whether you believe Misha saying he’s straight, or you believed him when he said he was bi, and ultimately, I think fandom is for enjoyment, so whatever is going to make you happy, as long as you’re not mean, and you’re not bothering or harassing anyone about it, I think it’s all fine.

And I think ultimately you need to respect yourself and your own mind and your own judgment. We are fans, not his friends, and this is a great reminder of that. It’s not a mutual relationship, and we not only don’t owe him unconditional trust any more than he does us, but we shouldn’t give him unconditional trust at all, because he is a celebrity, and as I said, we are his fans not his friends.

So if you’ve been made to feel shitty and delusional and to doubt yourself and your own experience, please don’t. The reality is that there are two options, he either relied on keeping his sexuality ambiguous so that he could get away with more, or he’s not straight. The reality is that there’s nothing wrong for having thought what he wanted you to think and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with feeling hurt by it.

I’m not going to get into my own opinions on which is true in this post, because that’s an entirely different bucket of worms, but it legitimately hurts to see people so hurt by this when they’ve done nothing wrong. People have very legitimate reasons to be very deeply hurt if not totally traumatized by this, especially given the history of Supernatural fandom and what it’s been like as queer fan of this show and of destiel over the years. It stabs right where we’re most tender by the one person that we thought we could trust with it.

This doesn’t mean that he necessarily did anything wrong. It doesn’t mean that there’s an enemy here, but it does mean that there are legitimate reasons to feel hurt and betrayed.