#I get that you like her actress tptb

[mr-and-mr-diaz]

Plot twist: between seasons, Eddie is doing work; therapy, working out (I am a Brick Shithouse Eddie in Season 8 truther), and when we see him at the beginning of season 8, he is bulked, at peace with Christopher needing space (while keeping a place open for him) and in top form.

He helps Buck with this first same-sex relationship, navigating, and ultimately breaking up with Tommy. Towards the end of the season, Christopher needs them, so they head down to Texas together to go get him. On that trip, they get together.

End season 8. You’re welcome.

[mauvegardens]

I am finally pulling together the threads of what bothers me about GH and Esme.

First up, I love a villain.

LOVE.

Helena is one of the best characters to ever come out of that show hands down. She was always up to something and we couldn't wait to see what she would do next.

Her forever feud with Emily? Loved it.

Any scene with Alexis? Bring it on.

Her pretending not to know you couldn't bribe a coroner? Chef's kiss.

But Esme wasn't doing soapy, over the top, say hello to my evil identical twin step sister stuff. What she was doing is way too close to real life and insidious at that. The fact the writers either didn't know or didn't care about how they treated one of their few black characters just compounded the trauma for many (if not most) viewers. Any time we tried to speak up about why we hate it, TPTB seemed to double down.

Now you have the great younger actress that I don't want to see on my screen. Between her and Charlotte, we could have had some fun, but the writers don't know how to do it. Peter was a flop. Valentin is better, but he didn't get the job done. Ryan was always great but they treated him like a day player. Heather is hit or miss with how bad they want her to be. Victor was fun while it lasted, so I did have some hope but alas...

This show needs to learn how to make us root for the bad guy again, or they're going to run out of stories to tell.

[my-mt-heart]

What really happened, MT? How do we continue to support Caryl when Norman benefited from Melissa's misfortune? I know you said he didn't have that much power, but he's a producer on the show named after his character. He said that TPTB allowed him to do what he wanted and it looks like what he wanted was for Daryl to lose his lovable personality, for the ship baiting to continue and for his costar to get jettisoned so he could be the star of his own show. How do we reconcile that with support for Caryl?

I love Melissa and I want her to be able to work and I also understand that it was probably this show or retirement. I know that Carol loves Daryl and you can't separate the two, but it's just hard to stomach that Norman will benefit again from Melissa's presence on the show. I don't want to feel dirty supporting a guy who would have anything to do with getting a talented actress and by all accounts a wonderful human being fired to feed his ego. If you know what really happened, please help me and anybody else who's confused and conflicted understand the circumstances.

I can’t share everything I know, but the bottom line is both Angela and Melissa were pushed out. Neither a showrunner nor a lead can just decide they don’t want to do a project they’re already signed on for without becoming unhireable. Both of them have jobs after the fact, so that in itself should tell us something.

As for who did the pushing, there are a lot of angles to it, but there’s a reason I call out Gimple at every opportunity and not Norman. This idea that Norman actively and maliciously tried to get Melissa fired is a projection. It’s false. You say that Norman benefitted from Melissa’s absence. Okay, but the question that matters is what’s the payoff? As far as I can tell, the viewership for S1 shrivels up every time something new is revealed and on top of that, the behavior all of us witnessed this past year didn’t seem to be coming from someone getting everything they wanted. To clarify, aside from Angela and Melissa, I’m not happy with anyone who was involved in the whole ordeal whether they were vindictive or misguided. I don’t like Norman’s interviews. I don’t like the attitude towards fans, journalists, etc, and I really don’t like Daryl being used for other goals.

Why do I still support Caryl then? They can’t be separated without retconning the characters like you said, but more importantly, holding Melissa in high regard means trusting her judgment. The idea that it was “this show or retirement” is also a projection. Would there be extra challenges to getting cast in other roles? Yes, and I’ll get into that more another day, but nothing and no one is forcing Melissa to come back. She doesn’t have to swallow her pride to do this show. She doesn’t have to surround herself with more toxicity. She’s choosing to work closely with Norman again. She’s choosing Caryl. With her on the show, I have more hope than ever that we could get a really good arc for Caryl, including canon.

[mischas]

hi, i just finished season 3 after avoiding the show for almost a year (pure dread @ knowing what happens) because going pages-deep into your blog made me remember how much joy i got from these characters. i started watching in 2021, and always came back to your page because you care so deeply for Marissa's arc, Mischa's self-advocacy as an actress, and the heart this show has despite it's bizarrely evil showrunner/crew. i learned how awful the work environment was for Mischa through your posts, and it makes the s3 finale 50x more devastating. but you & your mutuals have created a lovely little community for The OC, safe from the weird fandom/cultural misogyny around Marissa, and i just wanted to say thank u!

Hi sweetheart just know this message made me cry when I read it the other day lol 😭😭 In a very nice, good way of course. So thank you for sending this in!! I'm so, so glad that Marissa fans can find a little nook of comfort over here after all these years. I know it's a comfort to me. It's such a shitty feeling when the thing you love so much turns out to suck massively. And that most of the people who made it sucked then and suck now too. It's been such a weird few months of revelations. I'm lowkey scared of what the next year holds in that regard. But excited that MB's opened the lid on some stuff.

It made me a little sad that you learned so much from this blog when this shit should be blared from megaphones in show-centric spaces, but I'm not surprised. It's been Marissa/Mischa fans vs the world since 2003, tbh, and I'm really not exaggerating. I'm glad that people can pick up on things I say plainly and the other stuff underneath too. I acknowledge this is a super, super niche topic and not everyone has the same fixations I do, lmao. But still. This show was a phenomenon. It's essentially why we have the Kardashians in our lives. Perhaps why Bravo is the empire it is today. Why indie rock became mainstream for a time. The core four were on Entertainment Weekly. MB was on nearly every magazine cover imaginable promoting the show. How TPTB fumbled that bag so excellently plays on my mind a lot.

As for how it makes 325 even worse...... yes. I can't even talk about it much. Let alone what they turned it all into after. Another thing I'm scared of learning more of is the decision-making there. Think there are still things that will shock + disgust. Like MB having a sober coach toward the end of her tenure and them making her pretend to do coke on camera. Right before they fire her! Though ofc Stephanie and Josh don't have the balls to do it themselves and Josh can't even face the Bartons on the 325 set. Disgusting people who have only failed upwards and continue to do so. I will never get over this!

[twdmusicboxmystery]

Interview From Norman About the Spinoff

@wdway:

I'm trying to get the ET interview of Norman from last night at AMC Up Front event. He talked about the spinoff a lots of things he's already said but he did say this was kind of a reset. He also said it was romantic and use words to describe it like poetic and beautiful. Norman, also Jeffrey and Lauren about their spinoff.

@galadrieljones:

Just watched the interview w Norman. I love how he keeps calling it romantic. I think he means sort of like aesthetically romantic but he says it twice.

He also posted a shot of the Eiffel Tower today on Insta, maybe he’s back in France now?

@twdmusicboxmystery:

Yeah, I noticed that, too.

@wdway:

He starts out with talking about remember the last scene Daryl gets on the bike and rides off and everything goes terrible. I know this is probably silly and maybe just me but I felt like it was a decoy. You guys know that I am hung up on the missing year and I just felt like it was a "don't look over there at that missing year look at what you last see and let me tell you what it is."

I'm just hung up with something that was said by someone high up a few months ago that we would see a surprising twist at the beginning of the spin-off and I don't think us seeing him being kidnapped is the surprise twist because they keep telling us about it.

His talk of romantic and poetic a course everyone's going to assume that it's going to be romance between him and (sorry cannot think of her name the French actress) which if anything to me that the absolute sign that it will not be between him and her. Why would you give that away.

I love absolutely love when he says it's a reset.

@galadrieljones:

I feel like he says in the interview that the series ends with him “taking off on his bike to look for someone.” Does he say that? I thought that’s what I heard but I didn’t understand like, did we already know that? I will recheck as soon as I can.

I also love the word reset because it implies a dc al coda.

I think you’re probably onto something with the missing year. It’s an arbitrary amount of time, and it’s weird that he comes back but then he is leaving AGAIN and this time to go find his happy ending, and per his goodbyes to Carol, there seems to be this implication that he might not be back for a long long time. He tells Judith if he finds Rick while he’s gone, he’ll bring him back, right? Implying he’s not looking for Rick. So why is this trip so singular? And where was he before this. Why does he keep leaving.

I had forgotten the mention of the twist. I think it’s interesting how Norman focuses on the aesthetics of the show in his interview to avoid talking about the content or the story, even as we do have a hint from gimple that foreshadowing for the spin-off lies in the WB coda.

I wanted to mention too that amc posted that same throwback with Daryl and Leah on Twitter. Most of the comments are about how they hated the arc because it went nowhere and felt unfinished.

Just reminded me of what ppl once said about Grady. I know we believe that these arcs feel u finished for a reason. But a lot of ppl do just think tptb likes to drop things for no reason.

I fully believe that if and when they pick back up those unfinished arcs all these same haters will be back in the audience in two seconds.

So it really doesn’t matter what ppl say. It’s like Lori’s actress said, if the writing is good, anything can work, and it will.

@wdway:

In answer to your questions Norman does say he's taking off to look for someone. I believe that is another decoy because most people think he's going to go look for Rick even though he tells Judith that if he finds everything about Rick/ Michonne he'll bring them back which means that isn't his main mission.

Maggie said that they should look (not sure of the wording) for other communities but the scene ends with that so are we to believe that Daryl is leaving everyone plus the kids again after just returning from the "frontier." Judith is totally OK with him leaving after we saw her in s10&11 not telling about why her mother has not returned because she was afraid that Daryl would leave her. Now she ties his leaving with Daryl finding happiness.

I'm just having a hard time with so few people not questioning Daryl gap year. That we're told repeatedly that Daryl will be kidnapped and wake up in France not knowing where he is and what happened a verrry strong recall to the title of the episode after Coda, What's Happening What's Going On.

Gimple gave us that strange coda at the end of TWB and tied it to Daryl's spin-off and yet tptb doesn't spend much time in reminding us of that fact.

@galadrieljones:

Interesting. Okay I actually took it as a weird (probably planned) slip-up. Anyone actually watching this closely will notice he said that and will also know he’s not actually going out and looking for Rick. Immediately I was confused because I don’t think anyone has ever said before that in the spin-off Daryl is going to look for someone.

To me this would support the theory that while he’s gone during the “lost year,” he discovers something and then he radios back to Judith about it. He talks to her about it and warns her he’s coming home but he’s going to have to leave again because he has to go and try and find THIS PERSON, that he couldn’t live with himself if he didn’t follow up at least, and that it could be the thing that finally brings him peace. Judith would be sad but would ofc understand. She would have some time to come to terms with the fact that he’s going to leave again.

Maggie’s attitude is weird after the time jump, too. That weird line about like, discovering the outside world or whatever. Maybe Daryl lied to her about where he’s going, because it’s already happened once that somebody told Maggie Beth was alive and then she wasn’t alive. Daryl would never do that to her again. He would lie, and he would tell Judith that she can tell Maggie the truth if she wants to, like he would never ask her to lie, but not until he’s already gone. Because he knows Maggie would insist on coming, and he wants to go alone, and he also has no idea if what he heard or saw will even lead to anything.

I was thinking like maybe he’s lying to everyone. Like Connie thinks he’s just out navigating the wild frontier but in reality he just went back to Atlanta, and he ended up at Grady, and he found something.

Daryl would totally be the man to keep all that a secret, or to only tell Judith. Maybe he’d tell Carol but Carol can keep a secret. And Carol would understand if Daryl wants to go alone.

I also agree that the use of the word romantic is a decoy to make ppl think he’s going to have a love story with Isabelle. But if you’re paying attn then you know this is unlikely, not only because we know that tptb knows how much another random new love interest would irritate the fan base, but because we have seen “leaked” photos of her that imply she is a nun.

Ofc casual viewers and people who only care about ship wars and what not will get pissed at this and rage share the information just to complain, and this is free PR and exactly what tptb wants.

Because there’s a HUGE fan base that just wants Daryl to be happy. They’re not ride or die Carylers or whatever. They will tune in just to see if there’s a chance Daryl could finally bs happy.

I am suddenly remembering that Morgan will be heading back to Atlanta in the final season of Fear. I would not be surprised if they’re driving the entire narrative back in that direction, ie: going back to the beginning to unlock new information and blaze a new trail forward.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

I hope so! Love all the discussion today!

[talkingtea]

Oh my anon, the Marlize actress was chef's kiss. Real talent. And quickly became friends with Candice in real life. I also noticed that when the Sue actress finally got to have some real one-on-one scenes with Iris, she speaks highly of Candice more. I will always side eye her for following Candice at the last minute during the height of the BLM protests, but in her latest interview where she talks about how they related to each other about how this industry is, idk maybe she finally saw for herself what the "mean girls" group was doing bts.

I hope this doesn't mean we won't see them act together on the show anymore. Sue and Iris is the friendship we were supposed to have a long time ago. It's comic canon legendary! It seems like every time Candice/Iris gets close to another actor on set, they're gone. I have always believed it was intentional. Look at how it never makes sense onscreen. They isolate Iris, therefore they isolate Candice. And GG's goofy ass is none the wiser. I used to bring this up all the time to the podcasts on anon, but even though the pattern is clear as day, they would still give tptb the benefit of the doubt. And now that this Zaslov dude is in charge from Discovery, given what's been canceled already, he might be the one delaying her fate with the show even further. What do you all think?

In terms of the Warner Bros Discovery deal we think the Flash is so irrelevant in the grand scheme of things that none of the higher ups are even worried about it, much less actively interfering in it.

And while we love the Sue/Iris friendship, its clearly it only exists because they don’t know what to do with Sue without Ralph and because they want to keep Iris isolated from the main characters and storyline but they still need her to interact with someone.

[lola-andheruniverse]

Maybe I'm just delusional but I think we still get our canon.

🎉Only it will be on the MOST ridiculous way possible, like "here, look the crumbs we can give you, eat it up and don't argue" type of canon.🎉

Caryl will probably confess feelings after winning the war against Commenwealth. Their last badass moment together will be trapping and killing Lance. Judith will get shot, talk about how she can't die because RJ will be left with no family and reveal the truth about Michonne leaving to find Rick. Carol will assist on her surgery saving her one more time (because, yeah, obviously). Caryl will have their first and last night together because Daryl will leave to find Rick and Carol will stay as a guardian to the Grimes kids. They will agree on it like it make any sense, of course! Carol will probably help to build a new government for the Commenwealth because she can't have a break, can she?, and I can totally see her assuming the Comic Maggie final storyline as their President. (TPTB: look, looooook, she's being finally recognized and valued by her people. It only took us 11 seasons and 23 and a half episodes to do it. And, of course, these are the reshoots we've made last minute! What, you don't like it? At least we didn't kill her!)

The Daryl spin off can take place on the one year time jump, and the reason for it to be filmed on France is probably to acomodate both NR and AL (remember both of them together on Atlanta on February? Rick movies anyone?), because, hey, who cares that we promised a happy future to our leading female character/top billed actress? Right, only half of the fan base to said spin off.

After the time jump, we see Carol all sexy and regal with short hair and fancy coat. Daryl comes back with Rick (and Michonne?), Grimes family reunited, yada yada. The last kiss on screen?? Probably Richonne. Or maybe AMC even lost the opportunity to have their lead character back for one last scene because that's how much they suck.

Even worse, Daryl leaves after the time jump and they have a canon romantic relationship for a whole year THAT WE DON'T GET TO SEE because happens OFFSCREEN! *insert maniac laugh*

Wow, and if we complain about any of it? Bad, bad fans, never happy with anything. We'll try to give you a Carol spin off or a Carol cameo on Maggie's show, but no promises, because, you know, Melissa doesn't want to do it 🙄

Welcome to the Hall of Fame of Wasted OTPs and Disrespect ro Fans. Our seat is next to the latest screwed up ship, Villaneve.

[extasiswings]

oh i’m fully with you on being unhinged about the synopsis LOL it’s hard for me to enjoy it sometimes when some people get out of hand with “information” from people with 0 affiliation with the show. thanks for the info about max <3 i’m definitely gonna keep it in mind from now on

Yeah, people really just need to learn to step back and take a breath and think more about where information comes from. Like is it a fact or is it an opinion? Where is this person getting this information? What is or isn't their affiliation with the show? (This also goes for someone like Cocoa, a guest actress who is only in like 2 eps a season and probably only even gets scripts for her scenes, who doesn't even watch the rest of the show--she doesn't have some super secret special in with TPTB about what is or isn't going to happen).

And especially when it comes to things that would be hugely spoilery: I said it at the beginning of the season and I'll say it again now. If canon confirmation of Buddie is happening, we will know about it the second it happens during whatever episode, on our screens, watching live, not a minute before. It would be a historic thing and a very Big Deal, and no one, not the cast, not the press, not the crew, no one is going to let that slip early (and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was on a need-to-know basis). I love speculating, I have fun trying to read the tea leaves and freaking out over things like the synopsis and title choices and who the writer or director is for a given episode and what that might mean, but that's all it is. Fun. (Which is the other thing people need to learn, that when it stops being fun and if you're not enjoying the show right now, you can just...stop watching it entirely or at least take a step back from fandom. Curate your own experiences!)

But yeah, I think the best advice I can give is just to find your people. If you want to be positive and are enjoying yourself, there's absolutely nothing wrong with unfollowing or blocking people who are super negative and pessimistic and are harshing your vibe. I personally have a very tiny bubble of people I trust and enjoy seeing on my dash and talking with and I avoid the tags completely because I don't want to deal with most of the discourse and negativity that I know is out there. Find what works for you and stick to it! Fandom should be fun!

[whentheynameyoujoy]

So the ATLA Movie Is... Good, Actually?

Just kidding, of course it’s not, it’s so bad it sucked the paint off my walls. But after ten years of people pointing out its glaring flaws, why would anyone bother talking about this garbage heap if not to go the other direction? So here’s a very brief and very superficial list of things the movie does get kinda... not atrociously wrong.

And they won’t be fake hipster pokes, like “It’s fun to laugh at”, “The Rifftrax for this is OK”, or “Kudos to the actress for managing to say we believe in our beliefs as much as they believe in theirs with a straight face”.

(though now that I mentioned it, it is fun to laugh at, the Rifftrax for this is OK, and massive props indeed.)

Rasta Iroh

Yes, I know it’s not exactly the aesthetic of the real Iroh or that it makes no cultural sense for him to sport this do when no one else in the racebended Indian “OMFG what were you thinking Shyamalan” Nation does but goddamn, long-haired dudes are my one mortal weakness and I will ogle the hell out of him.

Jesus is that a man bun I see that’s it mum I’ve been deaded

Yue’s hair

No.

Now we’re talking. Yue’s hair turned white when the Moon spirit gave her life, so it makes sense for it to go black again when she sacrifices herself to revive the koi fish. It’s a neat detail I find myself expecting whenever I rewatch the scene in the show. Yes, I realize it’d be a pointless hassle to animate since she, unlike in the movie, immediately goes on to become the Moon herself but still. I like.

The Blue Spirit’s mop

Zuko, hun, what’s with the dance-off?

First of all, I want to imagine that Zuko the Theatre Nerd was about to leave his ship with just the mask like in the show but then stuck his head into the cleaning cupboard and went, “Yeah, more coverage might be good, even though it do seem mighty fried to shit”.

Which makes me giggle. I like to giggle.

And secondly, the hair’s movement is what makes the static mess of the Blue Spirit’s solo fight scene appear at least bit more dynamic because God knows the cinematography isn’t doing it.

Any particular reason why it’s at the edge of the action, shot all boring-like?

Now, I get why circular shots would be reserved for Aang while he’s in the practice area and then used once the two join forces. What I don’t get is why Aang’s part of the action scene has a defined visual style while Zuko’s delegated to a few stationary wide shots from afar as though he’s a tertiary goon, meaning that when the time comes to combine the respective pieces of cinema language and visually convey collaboration, there’s not really much to combine.

But as long as Zuko is stuck in this static mess, it’s that awesome disaster on his head flopping about that draws the eye, helping me understand that something even is going on over there.

It also prevents me from paying much attention to how the extras are mostly just staying put and a lot of the hits don’t land, so that’s good.

The music slaps

James Newton Howard is too good for this.

Pls ignore that the word “gods” is used in the ATLA universe

I can’t be the only one who constantly uses this piece to daydream about writing specific fanfic scenes instead of, you know, actually sitting down and writing them. It’s just so good at communicating a sense of sorrow while speaking of rebirth that I find myself getting misty-eyed whenever I listen to it. Unfailingly, the soundtrack as a whole manages to break through the mile-thick crust of horrible acting, confusing writing, and uninspired cinematography and make me feel things. And considering how everything on screen is working against it, that’s no small feat.

Imagine what a powerful experience it would be if the score was used in service of an actual movie.

Dev Patel

No wonder since he’s the only one in the film occupying that crucial intersection between “is a good actor” and “was given something to work with”. It also doesn’t hurt that he breaks with the trend of actors starring in martial arts flicks despite never having done any martial art.

And all EIP-jokes about “stiff and humorless” aside, he’s a pretty decent Zuko considering how abridged this version of the character is. A while ago, I remember hearing a reviewer say that with his comedic chops, Patel should have been cast as Sokka. And on one hand, yes, god, absolutely, I need to see that asap. But on the other? He captures all layers of Book 1!Zuko, the desperate obsession, rage, and self-loathing, and at the same time gives you a peek at the soft momma’s boy dork that’s buried underneath. For Christ sakes, he exudes intensity and ambivalence even when acting against an emotionless hunk of wood that’s giving him nothing in return.

Oh, and I guess there’s a tree in the frame.

Ba dum tss

What can I say, the guy’s good.

Showing vs telling

OK, so this movie is all tell and no show, except for one single moment. And it’s the exact moment where the original goes in the other direction in terms of how information is conveyed.

See, I never liked this. The revelation is preceded by Iroh giving advice to Zuko who scolds him for nagging. Iroh then apologizes, moves in to say the line above, and is interrupted by Zuko who seems rather uncomfortable with Iroh laying his feelings out like this. And once they’re out, Zuko verbally confirms that he knew already and Iroh didn’t need to bother.

All this extraneous information and pussyfooting ends up weakening what should be a profound scene that reveals to us, the viewers, how deep the relationship between these two in fact runs.

Compare to the movie where Dadroh acts like a parent by fussing and worrying, with Sonion needing a single look to tell him and us that he understands what it’s all really about.

It’s genuinely efficient and just good.

No Cataang

Fine, a bit mean-girl bitchy from me since I only start minding the ship in Book 3. And probably unintentional on the part of the creators since there are moments where I think they’re trying to set the romance up? There’s a, well, an attempt to recreate the famous introductory shot of fateful meaningful destiny of meaningness, there’s some slight note of saving each other’s bacon going on, I’m pretty sure they’re the only ones in the film who smile, and oh, right, Katara’s shoved into her post-canon useless role where she doesn’t ever do anything, and is all about Aang right from the get go.

Yes, I will blame the “executive producers” because a) I’m incredibly petty, and b) it’s perfectly in line with their vision of the character so why the hell not.

Hilariously, none of it reads on screen because the actors are just... yeah. These poor kids are struggling so much with delivering their own lines and portraying their own characters they don’t seem to have any strength left to create something between them. To be fair, the bare-bones shot-reverse shot style of their scenes doesn’t exactly lend itself to the idea they occupy the same universe, let alone are friends or each other’s crushes.

And I enjoy this immensely because it allows me to forget the depressing horror show Katara’s life turns into post ATLA.

Yes Zutara

I need to delve into this because it’s fucking hilarious. So in a movie which fails to establish the original’s central romance so spectacularly that if Aang got lost in a crowd I don’t believe Katara would notice, SomEOnE thought it’d be a good idea to add an utterly unnecessary non-canon moment where Zuko for some reason feels the need to pause his character-defining hunt for the Avatar which otherwise has him ignore everything and snap at everyone, and explain his central conflict to an unconscious peasant he doesn’t know, complete with gently pushing the hair from the pretty girl’s the soulmate’s the Water Tribe Ambassador’s the Fire Lady’s the love of his life’s her face away, AFTER his uncle nagged him twice to find a girl and settle down.

I just wanted to make sure we’re all on the same page and this is what we really saw.

Celibate Avatars

I have no idea why the decision was made, if TPTB thought expecting viewers to understand the story through the lens of Buddhism would be too much, or if the “executive producers” already worked their retconny magic. What I do know, however, is that there’s a big shift in worldbuilding and Aang’s struggle with his role as the Avatar stops being a personal conflict defined by a) his grief for Air Nomads, b) his notion of being robbed of the loved ones in his life, and c) the selfish attachment to Katara he confuses with true love. Instead, what he has a difficulty to accept is apparently a general notion of who Avatars are supposed to be, i.e. a fantasy version of Catholic monks, no family and worldly relations, period.

I guess either someone understood the original’s portrayal of de/attachment as “hermit no freaky”, or thought the audience would so why not go there outright.

Now, do I like this on its own? No, God no, it makes the world infinitely poorer and changes the story from an exploration of ideas which aren’t all that ingrained in the West, to a cliché tropester about a Catholic priest going Protestant so that he could be with a girl.

At least I assume that’s where they were going to take this eventually.

I mean, I think the direction was “look conflicted, this isn’t the final stage of your journey”?

But consider this—the show went there, it built on the concepts of Eastern philosophy and touched upon the ideas of spiritual awakening, only to swerve in the end and strongly imply they’re bullshit and Aang should have never wasted his time with them.

So honestly, I much prefer scanty worldbuilding to an insulting retcon by a damn rock.

Multiracial Air Nomads

Probably the most substantial “no hint of irony” point on this list and a genuinely good addition to the universe’s worldbuilding.

See, the notion of the elemental nations being perfectly separate and never mingling before Sozin has always been sketchy but it’s especially ridiculous in the case of airbenders. It never made sense to me for all airbenders to be Air Nomads and for all Air Nomads to be monks and for all monks to be chilling at the temples all the time to facilitate a quick everyone-dies genocide should an imperialistic warlord ever decide to commit one.

Because committing everyone to a single way of life at a handful of places kinda goes against the central philosophy behind airbending. Like the freedom and nomadism part.

Instead, there should be more variety to the airbending culture, with some staying at the temples as monks, hermits, and teachers while others live as nomads, travelling the world and creating more airbenders, with the resulting children in turn being influenced by the non-airbending cultures they grew up in.

And thus, not only should airbenders not be modeled after a single culture to create a one-size-fits-all lifestyle, but they should have the most diverse and dynamic culture out of the four nations.

And it’d be precisely this diversity which would pave way for an eventual reveal that some of them survived, that their complete extermination is impossible.

Because they’re everywhere.

You know.

Like air.

[whencallstheheart]

Just watched the S9 finale sneak peek with Faith telling Molly she likes Nathan.

So, now Faith has The Florence Nightingale Effect?!

The Florence Nightingale effect is a trope where a caregiver falls in love with their patient, even if very little communication or contact takes place outside of basic care. Feelings may fade once the patient is no longer in need of care. Wikipedia

TPTB and Writers actually created a wonderful storyline with Nathan & Mei. The actor/actress make the relationship believable. Their chemistry is amazing.

I see nothing but friendship between Faith and Nathan.

Nathan/Mei are one of the best storylines from S9. Many people ship them.

I hope it's not ruined by another waste of time love triangle.

Whatever happens I just want to see Nathan happy instead of used as a punching bag.

I think Faith is just really lonely and doesn't know what to do with herself and that's manifesting into a crush on Nathan. He's a great guy and they have a nice bond so it's only natural for her to want more from that. You can't blame the girl. I don't see anything being reciprocated. I'm hoping they're just making it seem like Nathan likes Faith in that way. We KNOW he likes Mei and they have something special. It would be ridiculous for the show to not continue with that love story.

I also think Faith deserves to have someone new who is supportive of her career and isn't interested in anyone else. Hopefully that's a storyline she gets in the future. Or maybe her and Mike explore something if it doesn't turn romantic with Fiona. They had some nice scenes.

[addictedtostorytelling]

Hi! As much as I appreciate that tweet from Jorja, do you think it may get her in trouble with tptb? And if she doesn't care about that, is this a sign that we won’t be getting another season?

hi, anon!

jorja is an old pro at all things network television, so i think she knows better than to say anything that would land her in hot water or jeopardize her job.

she's not going to bite the hand that feeds her.

all she really said was, "we filmed these scenes, but they didn't make it into the final cut of the episode" (which is something everyone already knew already, based off of the fact that the scenes were in the promos) "and i don't know why. you'd have to ask someone higher up the food chain than i am to get that answer" (which is just a statement of fact).

the emoji at the end does express sadness, but it's not necessarily a dig at anyone or at the network; it's just an actress expressing regret that the scenes she worked hard on were not ultimately used and showing compassion to her fans, whom she knows were disappointed not to see them.

so, in all? she didn't say anything that was either untrue or that paints her employers in a particularly unflattering light.

or at least not more so than they painted themselves that way by cutting those scenes in the first place.

her answer amounts to "i don't know why these editing decisions were made (but i sympathize with you fans who wanted to see the stuff which was edited out)" which is really a very politic stance for her to take.

she knows better than to actually be critical of the showrunners or cbs in public.

—and they know better than to think that she would be critical of them, too.

the powers that be obviously trust her a lot, as is evidenced by the fact that she is the cast member they've been using to do 90% of the press and promotion for this show.

she's been giving interviews right and left (not only on shows like the talk and colbert but in print, as well, sitting down with various websites and entertainment news outlets), playing up the show's virtues and trying to drum up viewership so it'll be renewed for a second season.

the big brass know that she is media-savvy and that ultimately she's a "company man."

look at how hard this interviewer worked to try to get her to say that the a plot, b plot structure for this season is boring and how deftly she spun her answer to avoid conceding that point while still nevertheless somewhat acknowledging the criticism. that's a master class in how to do press if you're an actor, right there.

as for the issue of renewal, i think it's very much up in the air at this point. certainly, the show hasn't been a ratings monster or a critical darling, but it may be faring somewhat better in streaming than it is in live-viewership numbers and it's not suffered too much of a precipitous drop-off in viewership since after the premiere, which means it's at least holding fairly steady, so, all in all, i think it's a toss-up.

honestly, at this point, its fate probably still has yet to be decided* (as does what level of involvement billy and/or jorja will have should there be a s2).

* it may depend on how the other shows in cbs's fall lineup do by comparison more than how the show does just on its own.

thanks for the question! please feel welcome to send another any time.

[petalsmooth]

I know there are some Bughead shippers who didn’t like the direction the show took and acknowledge how Betty was being and even Lili that aren’t around anymore because it basically became a battleground between Lili/Betty and Cole/Jughead stans and in a way I feel bad about that. But you can’t keep putting disclaimers on every post that you know doesn’t apply to all Lili/Betty or Bughead fans. It gets too old to type. And honestly I can’t apologize for my negativity or the fact I can barely stand to see or hear Lili/Betty speak onscreen these days. Which makes it an even better decision to not watch her. 

I’ll take some responsibility for this and their exit from fandom but honestly the main problems were twofold. Lili/Betty stans aided by some other fan groups that were jealous went hard core after Cole to attempt to destroy him. Literally destroy him. They wanted to see him never work again, destroy his reputation. Spread innuendo and lies, attack the people he knew. People made up fake DM’s about him, people made up RAPE accusations about him. He got doxxed. Cole left twitter basically for good as a result. You have tried to target his new GF to either hurt her or chase her away. I really don’t know how I could take the “high road” and safeguard their feelings when this is happening. 

This doesn’t even bring in what Lili and her friends and her family did. It wasn’t possible to fight that war and still protect some innocent people from crossfire.

Second is there are SOME people who think protecting the character of Betty can only be accomplished by shelving Jughead, radicalizing the idea of Jughead falling for a woman who is not white and excusing everything Betty does while acting like Jughead is a cretin for saying what Betty actually did. What do you not all get about character assassination? Instead of being MAD at people who wouldn’t pretend this was ok you should have directed your anger at the show. Admit they destroyed her and not low key help them peddle the assassination by saying she is misunderstood or expecting Jughead fans to be ok with demonizing him to equal playing field. Jughead fans actually would have been onboard with you on this, I actually still AM onboard with this. I just don’t get the point in being the lone wolf, or one of them, when that fanbase wants to live in denial, attack Jughead AND the lead actress won’t defend her character because she’s too caught up bitterness to care about the integrity of this character anymore.

I will NEVER think it’s ok what Betty did to Jughead or that he should roll over and take it or that we should like THIS Betty. The Betty fandom may have acquiesced to TPTB and become their lackies by default selling out because desperate to keep up appearances all is well but I’m not. All is NOT well and I won’t become the Riverdale fandom version of the Alice Cooper stepford wife. Bitterly and pretentiously sniping at people while pretending the world isn’t on fire. Maybe I’ll do the first, but it will be without pretending this is 2017 and they are still a sweet young couple that communicates and loves each other to keep up appearances because that ship sailed when Betty essentially dumped Jughead for the fantasy Elmo was a white knighted hero with abs that was worth crushing Jug’s soul and stealing his scholarship.

Tabitha is simply a better person than Betty. As is Jughead. Maybe that alone isn’t reason to be a couple. Maybe you can find a way to forgive or even love someone again who hurt you the way Betty did Jughead. But I tend to think that requires the person to admit what they did, have real regret, TRY to make amends and even then...I wonder why he would when Tabi has none of the baggage but all of the traits and better that he thought his ex once possessed.

[twdmusicboxmystery]

FTWD 5x15 - Discussion: Whether Alicia is Dead or Alive

Continuing our discussion about the latest episode, Amina:

@twdmusicboxmystery:

So, I'm wondering what the consensus is on whether Alicia died or not. I keep going back and forth about it. First, I thought yes. Then, seeing the episode, it's really ambiguous. Then the show runner said it was her last episode, so I thought yes. Overall, the fact that they aren't making it super obvious makes me think there will be more down the road.

Also, I can't help but feel like the way this episode is being treated is VERY similar to how Madison's "death" was treated. There was no TTD afterward, and not much fanfare, even though she was a major female character who apparently died. I remember they just had Kim Dickens release a statement saying she'd enjoyed her time on the show and it was her last episode. But as with Alicia, we didn't see a definitive dead body, or walker bite, or anything like that.

Granted, the actress returning could be all flashbacks or something, but again, with it being really ambiguous, I can't help but think they're simply setting up another reunion down the road. The other thing is, if she had died definitively, then the possibility of surviving a bite would still be nebulous. Because, in the end, she would have still died. But with it being up in the air, they may be setting her up for long term survival. Like Beth.

@wdway:

I've been back and forth about whether Alicia is alive or if we are seeing her afterlife. But then I thought surely the afterlife would not include walkers. Of course, unless they're trying to say she went to hell. It was probably the second time I watch the episode that it really sunk in that Daniel told Alicia that he would see her again. He was really very forceful about it, and I remember you have said many times that when they make statements like that they will come true. So, Alicia is alive.

Also the article I read over a week ago the actress said that she will show up occasionally.

I remember that the last time TTD aired Chris said that they would be back after the season finale. So, we should get some information from that hopefully.

Another thought about treatment at Grady. Dawn kept mentioning how people came back to Grady even after they left, and I've always thought maybe it's because once they leave they start getting sick again and that's why they returned. I do think it's pretty clear that Noah didn't know diddly-squat about what was going on and he obviously was not getting treatments at least not for a bite. I think he truly was slave labor.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

Good point about Daniel. I forgot about that. I suppose all the other stuff you pointed out too (IV bag and all) also point toward her survival.

@galadrieljones:

Yes, I just watched the [Youtube] video where @twdmusicboxmystery talks about dialogue and how tptb use it to kind of make promises, ie: Daniel saying “I’ll see you again” felt like a promise. Ofc Daniel is a spiritual character and that could be some sort of allusion to the afterlife. But I also feel like Alicia is alive. I think the fact that she wakes up so pretty and refreshed is meant to appear ambiguous, and I think that it does call back to Madison’s ambiguous death a great deal. We never see her die. We don’t see her dead body.

With Nick, we see the light go out of his eyes, and in the next episode, we see him turn in Luciana’s arms. We know Nick is dead. But not Alicia. And it makes me think about how we Beth, we don’t see her lifeless eyes. We don’t see her turned, don’t see her burial or her grave. The last time we see her, she appears to be asleep in Daryl’s arms. Even characters like Carl and Andrea, whose deaths we don’t see, we HEAR the gunshots, and we know they’ve been bitten and that they are dying. Michonne is also basically the common corroborator for both of those deaths. There is no question that they died.

I feel like any question is a confirmation that a character could return. So that’s my take on Alicia. I don’t know if what we saw was 100% true. It could have been colored by her own perception. She feels better, so we see her looking better. But I do feel that she’s alive!!

I have questions about Noah. He has that massive scar on the back of his leg, which the director is sure to show us. There was a time I thought perhaps he’d also been bitten, but you’re right that he seems rather clueless. I feel he would have told Daryl if he knew something. The thing is, I suppose it’s possible that he did, but he was such a weak character, it’s hard to believe he knew very much or perhaps he’d seem some things but couldn’t put two and two together. He seems like Dawn’s whipping boy, which is sad.

That said, I am also then questioning how much Dawn knew. She looks truly shocked when Beth is shot. Do we think she was earnestly going to let Beth go in exchange for Noah? If so, then wouldn’t that suggest Beth and Noah are, for her purposes, interchangeable? I don’t know. Like @frangi said, a lot of what was written back then was probably purposely vague so Gimple could have the wiggle room to fill in the blanks later, going in a couple different directions. I think, based on Noah’s weakness, it could go either way: either he didn’t know anything, or he did know something, he just couldn’t figure out how to articulate what he knew

@wdway:

Here are some thoughts about the goodbye between Alicia and Strand. I mentioned before I thought it might be foreshadowing of what we'll see between Daryl and Carol, and I truly think it's a strong possibility. I think there will be something that happens that will magnify their differences. There will be some kind of mission, a reason that Daryl is leaving.

I really hope that Ezekiel and Carol have mended their relationship, but I think it would be very important for Carol not to leave. Her staying would be a type of completion to her storyline because sooner or later Carol would always leave, so for her to stay, to consciously make the choice of staying, would mean an awful lot for the character Carol.

I do think that Carol and Daryl's last moments together might be them saying, I love you [as Strand and Alicia did]. We'll know that it's a, I love you, you're my brother, you're my sister but it will just be fuel for the fire for the carylers. With all the trauma that everyone has experienced by the carylers meltdown about the honeymoon spin-off. I would really love it if they would just end it in a way that would leave no doubt that Carol loves Ezekiel and that Daryl is not pining after her. If it ends with an unclear meaning that their love for each other is not romantic than, I love you will leave a big question mark for the carylers.

That's another reason I'm now believe Alicia is alive. It truly does not make sense if she died without a reunion with her mother. It's does not enhance the story if she died, and it would be really a senseless act of cruelty on the writers part. I know that they kill people all the time but there's always some type of reason for it, this would just be cruel not something the audience could get over easily.

@galadrieljones:

Yes! Just like Beth died before getting a true reunion with Daryl. What’s the point of giving Beth her own special arc, separate from TF, an arc that essentially leads to nothing, if they were just going to kill her? If they wanted to just give Daryl something to be sad about Beth, why didn’t they just kill her in a normal, obvious fashion rather than have her go through this whole other thing first? It doesn’t make sense!

@frangipanilove:

Loved your thoughts on the episode @twdmusicboxmystery! I think you guys are absolutely spot in in recognizing the 17-days template. I never thought of that in anything other than a superficial way, so I find it super interesting and definitely something worth diving into.

You touched on something that I tried to write a comment about after the episode. I chewed over too much and deleted it, but I’ll try again, and hopefully avoid writing a whole incoherent novel about it. It’s based around the cool/cold/frosty/snow/Polaris/polar bear stuff I’ve been going on about for years. I say years, because I feel like it’s only recently, we’ve been given enough pieces of the puzzle to fully appreciate what it’s about. And I’m not saying I have it all figured out, but I found there were several new pieces in the episode, and I’ll try to explain.

First, I’d like to remind y’all of Abe’s comment about “Alpha to Omega, battlefield to beach”. We were given a few very noticeable beach-references, like Charlie saying, “I got to see the beach”, and the fact that Alicia woke up on the beach. I don’t know about you guys, but for me personally, I fully interpret Alicia waking up on the beach, her fever gone, as tptb telling us that she’s alive. Everything I say is based off of that interpretation.

Imo, the way we saw her wake up is super significant. First and foremost, her fever was gone. This is MAJOR in the mythology of TWDU. It’s a literal paradigm shift and represents an entirely new chapter. The old chapter is now finished, it has reached an END. And yes, there are still some episodes left, plus, we already suspected something like because it’s been hinted at for a while. But as far as the GA is concerned, this is brand new information. And we’ve never seen it confirmed like this before, with a main character.

But from now on we must consider that the fever doesn’t always kill. This particular wording is intentional. And the way Alicia woke up is similarly intentional. We’ve seen her through this back half looking terribly I’ll, burning up with fever, yet she kept on living.

Let me take you back to 1x1, when Morgan had Rick tied to the bed, fearing he would die and turn. He was very concerned with Rick’s temperature and refused to release him until his fever was gone and his temperature gone down. He touched his forehead and said to Duane “he seems cool”.

COOL is the operative word here, and I refer to what I’ve written before on the cool/cold/frosty etc theme. Here, Morgan is explaining the entire premise of the show to Rick, but also to the audience. We learn, in this very first episode, the BEGINNING, that “it’s the fever that kills. And then they come back”. Morgan didn’t have all the details, but he knew that it’s the fever that kills. And through Morgan, the audience gets this important piece of information about the virus, which has been established truth until Alicia woke up on that beach, looking healthy and restituted, her body temperature normal (COOL = ), her fever (HOT = ) gone.

She pulled through. The fever doesn’t always kill. Some people pull through, they live, they survive. It was the little girl, which was Alicia but, in a way, her own character in the episode, who told her that you don’t always die from the fever. The girl, with all her Beth characteristics, and the entire episode with all the Grady callbacks, is a reminder that in this universe, “dead” characters sometimes come back. This is obviously pertaining to Beth, whether or not she literally was bitten, or if it’s meant as a metaphor for her near-death incident.

It’s also about other “resurrected” characters (Rick, Morales, Madison). In this universe, the gates between the realms are open, no one’s gone until they’re gone, the show is literally called The Walking Dead, all the characters are in a liminal place between the realms, and some, such as Alicia, survived a couple of months in this liminal space, burning up with fever, she shouldn’t have survived, but she did!

And this changes everything. The three of us already know this, because we watch the show, listen to the stories tptb are telling, analyze the symbolism. We also watch the spin-offs, and especially from TWB have we been given many clues about what we now see. We can still only theorize about what went on at Grady, but in light of what we now know about the virus, how the fever doesn’t always kill, Alicia’s arm and all the arm weirdness I talked about yesterday, in combination with the arm symbolism and additional symbolism around Beth at Grady…our theories were always brilliant, especially when considering how little information we had when they were first developed.

It’s still difficult to say anything specific about what happened to Beth. It would still only be a theory, but I’d say we’ve seen the symbolism fulfilled so many times before , and in such convincing ways in this episode especially, that I’d say we were right all along. Beth is totally coming back. Idk if she was immune, or if there was a cure for her or what, but we know that if she was bit, the fever doesn’t always kill. Maybe her “treatment” that Dawn always talked about saved her. This will be fun hashing out in future weeks and months.

But back to Morgan in 1x1. Symbolically there’s a lot going on, there are a bunch of ways I could approach this. There’s the “1x1”, which we saw again on Noah’s t-shirt, “one one”. There’s the “he seems cool’ and “it’s the fever that kills”, which is the entire basis of the cool/cold/frosty etc symbolism that y’all know all about. The Frosty Cola from Alone, with a RED label (red controls the gate) and BLUE caps (blue clues, double capper symbolism). All the compass symbolism and the red compass needle that I’m always on about. The “North Star/Polaris” symbolism etc. It all springs from this comment in 1x1 about “it’s the fever that kills”, which is also the premise of the show.

That was the BEGINNING. Alicia waking up fever-free on the beach was the END. Alpha to Omega. Battlefield to Beach. And what did we learn from the sub? “The Beginning Is The End”. I believe that now, when we have reached the END, we will go back to the BEGINNING. And why is that so great you might ask? Well, because at the very beginning, we saw a character “wake up from the dead”. Someone whose family thought him dead, someone who was “left behind”, someone who was separated from his loved ones for some time, before he eventually was “reunited”. He “returned”, like Sirius the Dog Star! He “came back” from the “dead”. We saw him open his eyes in a hospital bed, like we saw Beth open her eyes in Slabtown.

And here I could insert a collection of very suspicious parallels between the two, but I won’t because y’all already know all about them. The blue heron painting, the bluebird symbolism, the blue clues symbolism about the police officer and the new sheriff in town.

About birds, you know I interpret birds as resurrection signs because of the helicopter/bird connection, the blue heron paintings etc. That’s a different discussion which I’m leaving out of this for now, because I’m trying to be brief. But we saw Amina the bird featured in a way in this episode which imo was all about guiding Alicia through the borderland area between the death realm and the realm of the living.

This, in turn, touches on stuff I was talking about endlessly after FM, so I’ll leave that out if it. But when I saw that bird, I knew that it was about resurrection/survival/coming “back” from the dead. I knew that already when @galadrieljones mentioned a forthcoming episode with the name AMINA. The reason I called this episode a monster-breakthrough episode is because of how all the symbolism from this universe merges, or intersects, which creates these super-hubs of symbolism.

I’m still trying to figure out how to articulate that. At least that’s how I feel. Everything that I’m tracking on the show, the cool/cold frosty symbolism, the blue clues, the back/return symbolism, the three/tree/trunk symbolism… It was all there. Layer upon layer, or I should probably say interwoven, like I gigantic symbolical subway station of different train lines coming together. Symbols intersecting with each other. Symbolism that was introduced in the BEGINNING (1X1), coming to an END on that beach with Alicia “waking” up in the realm of the living, after having been in the borderland are between the realm’s for two months (or 17 days if you will). And the END is the BEGINNING.

We know that in the immediate future, Madison is the “dead” character that will be “resurrected”. And that’s entirely predictable, not only because tptb has told us, but because it was always abundantly clear that the circumstances around her death was written in a way that would allow her to return without any problem. But we will later see Rick, and because of the symbolism around both Rick and Beth we will eventually learn more about Beth. I guess, since we have reached the END, the BEGINNING must be near? I sure believe so.

About Amina the bird, I interpret it as I interpret the blue heron paintings, the bluebird that Daryl saw in 9x6, the helicopters and the general “airlift” aspect of it, which ties into stairwell and elevator symbolism.

We saw Amina guide Alicia through the liminal borderland between the realms, up through the stairwell, away from the death realm, towards the realm of the living. And then we saw the girl, who in reality was young Alicia, break the glass.

Personally, I interpret this as “she saved herself”. I’ll say a few words about why. The core of all the symbolism I’m tracking and my interpretation of it has always been the tree/three/trunk theory. The essence of it is about breaking out of tombs. Obviously, this is a template from the Bible, the story if the resurrection of Christ. In TWDU, we see the “tomb” represented by other types of confined spaces such as trunks of cars, boxes, train cars, carnival ride cars, beds of trucks, boats and recently, shopping carts. And we know that a tomb can be a great hiding place, but it can also be something that imprisons you. It can be good and bad, depending on the situation.

In Beth’s case it was “good” when she hid in the trunk in Still, but for the Beth walker from 5x10 it was “bad”. And most importantly, my belief is that she was put in a trunk, or a car after Coda. Which was instrumental in helping her survive somehow. @wdway, we have talked so much about The DaVinci Code before. I’m bringing up that again because of how towards the end of the book it was revealed that the tomb of Maria Magdalena was situated under the inverted pyramid under the glass pyramid outside the Louvre. And obviously, it’s important to note the tomb-aspect of that clue, but also, there’s a glass aspect to it.

And when it comes to the “breaking of glass” symbolism on the show, I believe it’s about breaking out of the tomb, which is a metaphor for “resurrection” or “returning from the dead”, which is basically what Alicia did, which the bird “helped” with. It was guiding her through the liminal space between the realms, it made her “save herself” by symbolically shattering the glass window, which incidentally had a big cross on it. She shattered the glass, symbolically saving herself, breaking out of “the tomb”.

I’ve always said that the greenhouses (GREENEhouses) are metaphors for tombs, and that breaking the glass is something that “opens the gate”, meaning you can break free from the death-grip. We saw that in 4x4 when the broken glass of the greenhouse had allowed the tomatoes to survive due to access to rainWATER. In 6x6 we saw the two walkers enclosed by glass, literally class coffins. We saw the importance of keeping the little cooler with insulin cold during that episode. Again, we see how the “cool/cold” symbolism is about something that represents life. Literally, Sherry’s sister was experiencing a drop in blood sugar which made her pass out. Sherry administered the insulin, and her sister “woke up”. She “resurrected”. The cooler contained the life-giving medicine.

The glass house/greenhouse in this case is neutral, it just represents a tomb. It’s the cooler with the insulin that represents “resurrection”. The insulin did what it was meant to do, it “resurrected” her. She later fell into the mouth of a couple of walkers, that’s not the insulin’s fault. We see the same symbols in the case from 6X6, they were arranged differently. Perhaps you could say they’re part of the same constellation, but they’re different stars. Same symbolism arranged differently.

I would also put the green house from 11A into the category with the other greenhouses. Team Maggie hid in the basement (synonymous with trunk symbolism), in a greenhouse (synonymous with glass greenhouses). It did NOT become their tomb, because they escaped out the basement window (synonymous with “breaking the glass”).

I’d be very surprised if Alicia had died after all the resurrection symbolism tptb had surrounded her with. She saved herself (the girl was in reality Alicia herself). She “broke the glass of her tomb”. And we saw her “wake up”. Beth asked Daryl “Did you have to break the glass?”, signaling at an early stage that yes! Glass is in fact something that ought to be broken in this symbolism universe. And she saved herself as we know. As did Alicia.

Basically, I said that we might see the glass pyramid and potentially some broken glass when Daryl goes to Europe. We might not see the fictional tomb from TDVC, but we might see the pyramid. Percy recreated the Louvre with pyramid and Mona Lisa, so it’s definitely a thing in TWDU. And I’d like to remind everyone that the louvre is home to Venus from Milo, which is one of the most famous Venus/Aphrodite statues in the world, and there’s that Venus theory that I’m always talking about….

@wdway:

This was just wonderful. Alpha and Omega and it's so very satisfying. I have so enjoyed all the brainstorming and realizations of the symbols shown this week. @twdmusicboxmystery, you talked about the bird images that we have seen and how they connect to whoever we see them with. I couldn't help but think of Daryl. Him seeing the nest full of baby birds and the adult bird feeding a worm to the babies. And how we have seen in episode Then Daryl himself digging up a worm and using it for food. 

And now he has a nest full of baby birds in the form of Judith and RJ. Kari, in TDVC, MM (the Holy Grail) was under the inverted pyramid with the pyramid on top which forms a diamond shape. If you separate the diamond, the ^ represent the male and the inverted v, the female. 

Daryl has been connected to Washington D.C several times. In the trip to Washington in s8, Daryl was seen on his motorcycle with the Washington Monument behind him. The top of that white Monument is a pyramid shape. In the same episode, a banner with every single eye that strongly resembled Beth's. On the back of a Washington one dollar bill on the right side (=Daryl) there is the eagle and on the left side (=Beth) there is a pyramid with a female eye beneath it. Beneath pyramid = Holy Grail.

You could say that the upper and lower half of the bill has a 1 on the left and a 1 on the right, 1,1.

If the birds that we see are connected to the people we see them with, then the empty bird cage in Beth's prison cell is telling us that that bird is missing, gone, lost. I just realized that the prison cell is a human cage which makes Beth herself the caged bird that becomes lose.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

Such great thoughts here! Love all your observations! So, a few replies. I talked about Alicia’s little girl self mentioning that the fever is what would kill the infection, and what an interesting statement that was. Something about the way you were explaining things in your comments helped me clarify that more.

And this is obvious from a medical perspective, but I was thinking that maybe the fact that she specifically didn’t take any medication, and therefore the fever raged, high and unchecked, is what finally cured her. The little girl is right. When someone is sick and gets a fever, it’s the body trying to cook out the infection. The body’s natural sterilization through heat. Fever reducers really are counterproductive. But of course, we take them or administer them because fevers are uncomfortable, and in our fast-paced world, many of us need to be able to work and function, fever or no. Plus, a fever that gets too high can also be deadly.

Often in TWD, the fever is what actually kills. It gets higher and higher, as the body tries, unsuccessfully to fight the walker infection. But above 104 degrees, seizures can occur due to the high heat. The brain, for lack of a better word, cooks, and the heart stops.

So, my point is just that Alicia’s fever went on for a long time, and when she no longer had any fever reducers, and was just using WATER to hydrate herself, the fever finally got high enough to kill the infection.

Why hasn’t that happened with others in the show? There could be many reasons, and no way to tell. Maybe it’s because she’s stronger than others. Maybe it’s because she cut off her arm early enough that the infection didn’t take root in the same way it has with others. Unless they give us a medical reason for that, we won’t really know.

As to the beach symbolism, I totally agree. Just as I said beach is the opposite of battlefield, and therefore = peace, you could also explain it as battlefield = death (because people die on the battlefield) and beach = life. Totally agree with that!

In terms of water, I was also thinking that water = healing. Which is probably partially why a beach (which inherently sits next to water) = life. Something about Alicia drinking the water helped cure her. That’s why they so obviously focus on her drinking when she wakes up. It’s one of those things where they’re waving their arms and pointing to it as a clue.

And it’s probably not anything above what most people understand about water. As I said above, the fever raged, killing her infection, but drinking water and the saline IV June gave her kept her hydrated, saving her life. It’s why Beth = water, and also why water will end up being so important if the CRM is hording it. I agree with this being a new beginning on the show, btw, and it may be that all the characters will now slowly come to understand how a bite and fever can be treated. It will still be touch and go. Some will live, some will die. But water will be instrumental in helping the bitten.

And this symbol reaches all the way back to S4 with the infection at the prison. Hershel wasn’t a science guy like Eugene, but he was a farmer, which means he understood the basics of what any body (human or animal) needs to survive, and that’s water. There is a point where Sasha passes out in the prison. It’s just because her fever is so high and she’s so hot and dehydrated that she loses consciousness. When she wakes up, Hershel has attached her to a saline IV. When she wakes up, he says, “welcome back.” So, water has always been synonymous with treating illness on the show. And of course, that’s also real to life.

@wdway, what you said about the bird’s nest near Daryl. I keep meaning not mention that, too. I agree with what you said, and it’s one of those things that can be interpreted on many levels. The other thing I thought of was that if bird = resurrection, in that episode, when Carol went and got him and talked him into going back to HT to watch over Henry, we were actually seeing Daryl’s psychological resurrection. Of course, we couldn’t entirely understand when that episode aired, but that was him coming up for air and coming back to community after his time with Leah, which was very underworld-ish. So, it really was a resurrection for him. Love everyone’s thoughts!

@frangipanilove:

About why Alicia didn’t die from the fever, I feel like that is what’s so groundbreaking about her case, it’s completely new in the show’s zombie-science. She’s the first character that has been bitten, that has developed fever and still survived it. The people at the prison weren’t bit, their fever was from whatever flu they were having, at least that’s how I read it. But yeah, water is totally healing and also a major Beth symbol.

In terms of the show’s mythology, the established “truth” about the zombie virus has up until now been that if you get bit, you have to amputate the affected limb immediately, or else you develop the fever, which will kill you, no exceptions. And then Alicia gets bitten, she amputates her arm, but not fast enough (according to herself). She develops fever, expects to die, yet she never does. What we know from before is that it takes minutes or hours, not weeks or months. If Alicia’s fever really is from the bite, it represents a paradigm shift in the “show science”. My thoughts on that are that it represents and ending point to what Morgan explained in 1x1, that “it’s the fever that kills”. Alicia is the “Omega” to Morgan’s “Alpha”.

My thoughts on the words of the little girl, was that “isn’t the fever supposed to kill the infection” is like an inverted version of Morgan’s words from 1x1, “it’s the fever that kills”. Is she saying that because she (Alicia ) has some kind of immunity? Or rather, are tptb saying that so that we, the audience may suspect that something about Alicia makes her react differently to a bite, something which we’ve never before seen in TWDU? Is there something about her that makes her “different”? Does she have some sort of immunity? Something in her genetic makeup, or something she’s developed through exposure, as Ann suggested above. Idk.

And before I speculate further on that let me just say that the reason I find that so exiting is because it plays right into what we’ve been discussing off and on about Beth’s mystery arm injury from Slabtown, and because of the WILD parallels between Alicia and Beth in this episode. Both Alicia as an adult and Alicia as a child. The way she struggled to kill the walker, “it doesn’t matter”, the question “what’s your name”, the arm injury etc. And the girl, with her Converse shoes like Beth, her blue shirt like Beth, her braids.

And like you say, water has always been a life-giving symbol on this show, as it is in real life. Still, I feel like there’s something about the juxtaposition of Morgan’s Alpha (fever kills) and Alicia’s “Omega” (infection kills fever) that feeds directly into the events from Slabtown and some variant of cure/treatment/immunity.

Also, remember Eugene’s “fighting fire with fire”, well that’s basically a different way of saying “infection kills fever”. Vaccines are “using fire against fire”, using a small amount of the pathogen to train the body’s immune response. And about this being the “end”, we already know that in some respects we are starting all over again, with new, fast, “smarter” walkers, so it’s not like that’s entirely new.

But still, we’ve never seen a main character survive a bite that developed into a fever, we’ve never really seen how that looks. It is brand new in TWDU. (TBF most of the GA has never even seen the French walkers from the WB-coda. And I guess most won’t see Alicia’s fever either). But more importantly, I feel like tptb are signaling quite heavily that it’s starting to become time for Beth to return. Not only because we demand it, but because the symbolism says so.

And this ties into the bird symbolism again. Because we saw helicopters in 1x1, at least one outside the hospital where Rick “resurrected”, and one towards the end of the episode, flying. And the “BEGINNING”, Morgan’s “Alpha” to Alicia’s “Omega”, was episode 1x1, or “one one” as we later saw on Noah’s t-shirt along with the famous blue heron. Again, bird symbolism. 

So that when tptb named Alicia’s episode Amina after a bird, and chose a bird to be the spirit animal guiding her away from the death realm towards the realm of the living, that’s something we’ve seen before. We just haven’t seen it fulfilled before, because we haven’t seen Rick alive yet, even though we’ve been told he’s alive. And of course, we haven’t seen Beth alive either, but we saw the same bird symbolism around both of them. And now around Alicia.

Other prominent executives of this symbolism are of course Daryl’s blue wing, with the ten stars, plus Negan’s mention of Reagan National, an airport. Both of these two symbols delve around flying and flying objects/beings, and there’s a blue clue along with them.

One last comment on the bluebird Daryl sees in 9x6, I personally tend to believe it was mostly about Rick, or Rick’s “resurrection”, because we saw it as we heard Michonne’s voiceover as she was talking to Rick. But the symbolism is about resurrection, imo. And the symbolism appears around several characters, Rick, Beth and now also Alicia. As to what the baby birds symbolize, I’m sure it could be many things (family?) but personally I chose to believe it represents many, many beautiful Bethyl babies, but of course I’m biased. (The worm on the other hand, I gotta say it’s still a bit of a mystery to me, I’d love some insight if anyone has any.)

And the symbolism around the dollar bill is something I’ve been eager to dive into, it is super detailed. And speaking of the pyramid on top of the Washington monument, we actually saw Alicia kill a walker with a mini-monument at one time, and we haven’t really seen any significant fulfillment of that yet.

@twdmusicboxmystery:

I’ll stop there. The other day, @galadrieljones joked about making t-shirts that said, “hey an air conditioner!” on them. For the record, I think I’d favor one from @frangi’s above comments that reads, “because the symbolism says so.”  😝

Thoughts (on anything, not just possible t-shirts 😊 )?

[codewordpumpkin]

The Blacklist 8x04 Thoughts

i’m gonna begin with the NEGATIVES first because i like to end things on a high note:

- having to watch Liz reach a new low (shocking, i know) by manipulating and using Ressler, tarnishing a genuine friendship/partnership/sibling-ship through sex

- having to watch the most awkward sex scene in the world... what makes it awkward, you ask? well, the use of body doubles was way too obvious + liz’s dead eyes (lmaoooooo the bitch was ice cold) i mean cmon, i know the lights were off but at least try and be more convincing, girl

- liz impersonating a cartoon villain + liz trying to steal red’s associates literally made me laugh... ah what a joke :’) + i still genuinely don’t understand why liz is THIS fired up on getting “revenge” and killing red... like yes she has a right to be upset for red killing her bio mom in front of her but like... she knew kat for all of two seconds and liz has somehow forgotten all about kat using her and putting her daughter at risk and also conveniently forgetting about all the times RED WAS THERE FOR HER AND PROTECTED HER AND SAVED HER AND LOVED HER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i really can’t get over this “character development”... like at least give us a believable explanation for this stupid stupid stupid arc????

- tptb dumbing red down to allow liz to outsmart him... ughhhhhh cmon guys:

1. it’s MARVIN FFS! MARVIN!!!!

2. even if marvin was a traitor, no way red would hand power over to Skip or Chip or whatever the fuck his name is JUST LIKE THAT ugh

3. red (the one we know and love) would NEVER fall for the dumb ass ruse - airline tickets to switzerland with marvin’s real name on it lmaoooooo my god even liz admitted how lame that scheme was

3. cringed when liz got all giddy on the jet... taunting red on the phone as if she’s some mastermind.... bitch please

*now, finally, for the POSITIVES*:

- i actually love the fact that liz and ress slept together bc

1. she was using sex to manipulate ressler 

2. her dead eyes say more than anything i could

3. lol it’s like when samar and ress slept together... did anything come out of that? nope, nothing except Saram... aka ressler is just a tool the girl must use to find her way to her actual soulmate/endgame

3. tbh i see this as tptb killing keenler. i have literally zero worries about keenler being endgame. even aram thinks it’s a terrible idea lol “tell me it wasn’t at your apartment”

4. also park calling ress out for wanting to protect liz + park calling ress hot last ep = me thinking park has more of an actual chance with ress than liz does... which is fine by me

- *UNICORN* SOCKS!!!!!! (agnes saying they’re good luck + ress asking liz if she thinks unicorn socks will protect her from red) y’all remember the unicorn references in that one ep back in s6 (seriously can’t remember which ep it was but i think it was in s6) where i think brimley (possibly?) had some sort of UNICORN speech and at the end of the ep (possibly?) red and liz sit on a bench and watch agnes riding the carousel on not just a regular horse but a UNICORN??? ALSO THE SOCKS WERE R E D!!! coincidence?? I THINK NOT 

- liz taking her and tom’s engagement ring + thinking fondly of tom + talking to agnes about tom aka her agnes’ “father” = BAIT!!!! tom is dead (DEAD, dead) and not going to return except through flashbacks. I swear to god, tptb are using all this tom reminiscing to set up for some sort of revelation later on (a revelation regarding red and liz ofc... #agnesgate)

- liz looking gorg tho

- red looking gorg too

- shoutout to red’s associates who are loyal AF + liz talking to marvin in the restaurant as if she’s some italian gangster lmao... “you write your ticket... 50/50... i could make you riDICulOUsly RicH” lol also liz telling him red’s not loyal lol says the girl who betrayed literally everyone in her life lollllll please bitch go to your room)

- is it just me or is agnes getting blonder (yes i know it’s a diff child actress, but tptb chose this actress for a reason... #agnesgate)

- red’s very... interesting facial expressions (annoyed? mad? upset? JEALOUS?) when aram and ressler barged into cooper’s office to say liz called + red goading/pissing on Donald bc he fucking knows they slept together lmaoooo loved when red did his squinty face + his tone/face when he says “i believe you do... that’s what worries me” when ress said he believes liz was telling the truth about marvin turning +++ i also think red was more hardcore with marvin bc he was coming right from cooper’s office aka after his little butt-in with ressler aka after he found out liz and ress slept together AND HE’S PISSED (even marvin says “you’re so puffed up with anger, you don’t see it”

- this whole Sick Red arc being pushed in front of our faces and screamed into our ears (red repeatedly talking about his numbered days, repeatedly referencing his will (and leaving everything to liz), showing us red coughing blood + his many pills) just reinforces my belief that Red WILL NOT DIE... this is just bait + set up for next arc or endgame aka red and liz and agnes eventually living happily ever after

- Dembe telling red and us what we all already know aka RED LOVES LIZ!!!! + red admitting he “didn’t have a plan” in a heartbroken voice/face bc he’s a fool in love

- as much as i hate liz antagonizing red, i do like that this evens their playing field a bit, making liz more... worthy? capable? of being a partner to red

- love how murderous red’s face was when he warned the russian dude he better fucking NOT hurt liz keen 

* SIDE THOUGHTS * : 

- i hope marvin stays loyal to red even after all the goat torture... you’re the GOAT, marvin

- i wish we could’ve seen red’s reaction to liz escaping with agnes (bc he must know that puts agnes *cough-hisdaughter-cough* in even more danger)

- i can’t wait to watch red kill Skip lol 

- im sorta ignoring the whole red being N13 thing bc i give zero fucks to who red was (and the entire mythology of the show at this point)... i care about WHO HE IS... and that is a man who just LOVES ELIZABETH KEEN... literally nothing else matters to me

- i know pretty much everyone HATED this ep, but overall, i actually enjoyed it

*** END OF TBL 8x04 THOUGHTS***

this took me forever and a half to write + is not edited (clearly) so please ignore any spelling/grammar/disorganization/whatever 

[talkingtea]

i still find it baffling how he acted like being associated with cp or promoting wa (or whatever the damn issue was) would release some kind of curse on his entire bloodline for the next 500 years. He knew exactly what he was getting into when he signed up, and if it was going to be such a problem for him he should’ve just dropped out. All this extraness and for what? Idk, it has always seemed more insidious than suggested to me, like i feel like it’s just scratching the surface of something… the whole situation has always left a sour taste in my mouth and i can’t quite but my finger on it (well i can, but if i speak)

When you take a step back and really look at the situation as whole, you’re right, it’s much, much more insidious than it previously seemed.

Candice is hired and instead of being supported she was essentially told to hide and maybe the hate would go away. Parts of the fandom weren’t warming up to her (and never would because she is black) the media is dismissive of her and still she is receiving next to no support from tptb. In fact, instead of fully solidifying her role as the lead female—even if her character wasn’t with Grant’s yet—they instead had her sharing leading lady duties with a white costar who made it no secret that she was gunning for that title even though her lack of talent should have told her to sit her ass down somewhere. 🙄 Candice couldn’t do interviews without Danielle also being there. She couldn’t do panels without Danielle also being there. She couldn’t even be nominated for any type of awards without Danielle being nominated for the same one. They claimed they wanted a black woman to play the lead character but they made sure there was always a white woman right there too *sharing* that role even though we know if the situation were reversed Candice would be, without question, very much a side character.

And then there is Grant who, admittedly, at times could be very sweet and do and say things for and about Candice that were really very nice and unexpected and clearly made her very happy. But the other 90% of the time more often than not he purposely did things that made an already hard situation for Candice even harder and then when he got called out about it he played dumb and made everything about him and his hurt feelings. That’s the part we don’t get. Being a lazy co star who doesn’t want to make an effort is one thing but being someone who does things like rearrange a top 9 so a picture including his black costar doesn’t seem like his most popular for the year, or liking a hater comment about her being killed off, lying about planning a photoshoot, or being willing to go above and beyond to promote a short lived romance with his white love interest but not have that same energy with his black love interest (even though that actress plays his character’s soul mate), or even conveniently taking an IG break when his character’s daughter showed up so he would never have to do any promo whatsoever for his character’s black family…which is something he STILL hasn’t done to this day. The list literally goes on and on and on. Just writing about is exhausting can you imagine living through it? Being online and minding your business, as Candice so often did, only to be bombarded with bullshit because Grant decided to be on one that day.

[aussieokie]

Im curious to know your feelings on this season so far if you dont mind sharing?! Im such a fan of the show but i gotta say this storyline is weird and the absence of Liz is a curious creative choice that is just getting tiring. II hope it pays off in the end at least, hope it is worth it but i doubt it. What is your opinion on how the season is going so far?

Hey, thanks for the ask. When we got 801-803 the episodes were great, because they had originally been 720-722 to finish out the season on a well written arc. Yeah, Liz was over the top on her revenge quest, but it was gripping viewing. So 804 was actually 801. Which means Season 8 basically got one good episode with Liz, made her Number 1 on the Blacklist and then... Then we got ‘whatever it is that we’ve been getting’ for weeks since...

Each week I am finding myself less and less interested. Liz’s absence is now a gaping hole and it’s completely unbalanced the feel of the show. If her absence is planned (which I believe it is and TPTB confirmed that it’s a writing decision) to maybe go back and see things from Liz’s side in upcoming episodes, then okay. With the reduced filming time this season, they had to get creative. It would make creative sense to have had her filming her episodes all along and we just haven’t seen them yet. But it’s gone on TOO LONG. I don’t understand having ZERO Liz. Not even a phone call, or behind the Cyranoid camera, etc. It’s no wonder half the viewers think she was fired, or she quit, has Covid, is disputing her salary, etc, etc,

The last few weeks have been almost painful to watch. Last night was terrible. Three separate torture scenes by a boring Blacklister (yes, I’m sure the actress is great, but this role was boring and over acted like she went to arch enemy villain school) was too much. I couldn’t even watch Dembe’s torture. And by the time we got to it all over again with Red I was even more BORED. The icing on the cake was using Max (who would NEVER have betrayed Red) as a punching bag. Ugh. Awful, awful writing. It was one of their newbie writers, and it showed.

To sum up my feelings, I am actually glad there is no episode next week to save me from this current weekly misery of watching a show I love slowly disintegrate.