#I didn't tag all the fandoms/ships/characters because they are a lot

[nanawaffles]

... so I'm pretty sure this is likely going to fall on deaf ears, but this crossed my dash, and I have to add some thoughts. So on one hand I agree with you, Aredhel has so little representation in this fandom apart from romanticizing her clearly abusive relationship compared to Galadriel who is pretty much everywhere; aaand there's a lot of uncanon gender roles pushed not just on elven society, but Arda as a whole.

However, there are no "obviously gay characters" in Tolkien, there's a lot of friendships which are so lacking in fandom consumption of media. And the fandom has characterized a lot of characters who are gay, including ones who are not gay, regularly. Samwise Gamgee, not gay, marries Rosie Cotton, canonically loves her to bits-- on AO3 2,500 fics are of him and Frodo. Him and Rosie? 338. A character that's canonically straight. How about Aragorn, again, another canonically straight character... on AO3 his main ship is Legolas with well over 2,000, while his canonical ship with Arwen has 1,380. A little more balanced. How about Thranduil, y'know the guy who had a wife and was still so devastated about her death centuries later that he couldn't even talk about her to his son? Naturally we'll have to come up with OCs for that, right? Okay. According to AO3, thranduil/his wife tag has 485 and thranduil/ original female character has 588, together that's 1,073. However, thranduil/bard is 1,375, thranduil/ thorin is 648, thranduil/elrond is 336. All told that's 2,359. Canonically straight. But then again fandom has painted him as a pretty boy who likes to drink wine, be sassy, and be very flamboyantly gay.

In other words... the fandom has collectively made all these characters gay when they weren't. And I'm not talking Bisexual, there's so much bi-erasure it's kinda ridiculous. But I digress.

Now, Maedhros and Fingon. After reading this post I did a little breakdown on AO3, to see if you're right about women creating ocs. So i found there's 85 maedhros/ofc. There are 20 fingon/ofc and 39 of fingon/fingons wife (I'll touch on that in a second). There's even 7 brave souls who do fingon/maedhros/ofc. All told that is 144. Fingon/Maedhros however? 2,754. In other words, not even close. The fandom seems unanimous, the tag is full of it, and it's actually pretty hard to even find either of them in a heterosexual ship. Especially given there isn't actually any canonical base for it. You can reference Tolkien aaand WH Auden all day, but that doesn't change that at a core level he didn't write it. It isn't there. And yes, Christopher Tolkien has stated he mistakenly made Gil-Galad to be Fingons son instead of Orodreths when he published Silmarillion, but he still got that from an original idea. In fact there's actually more children in the old ideas, meaning that Tolkien had a wife in mind for Fingon. Now he changed it it would seem, but that doesn't negate that with that baseline... that kinda points to Fingon being straight.

I believe you mentioned "uncanon gender roles... for no reason". Define for me the difference? Russingon is, in the end, fanfiction. They are friends in canon. They're ride or die friends. And what's wrong with that? What's wrong with loving a friend so much you'll walk literally into hell for them? Now you could say "what about Beleg and Turin?" To which I would have to concede. Turin kissed him on the mouth. Plain and simple.

"But it's implied" ... implication isn't canon. You can build headcanons off implication, but at the end it's still not canon. For instance, earlier I said Aredhel/Eöl is clearly abusive. However, there's lots of people who see it as full of possibilities and half her numbers on AO3 are with Eöl. Now I may not agree with a loving relationship, but it's not un-canon, it's just interpretation. On that same note, ship what you want, it's not illegal. Whatever floats your boat.

However, calling anyone who doesn't agree with you homophobic because when they read the Silmarillion they saw a deep and beautiful friendship, and wish to ship either Maedhros,Fingon, Glorfindel, Ecthelion, Etc,etc,etc.... with women... that's pretty messed up. It would be like if I took Achilles and shipped him exclusively with Briseis, got everyone to agree and then called those who shipped him with Patroclus or other men, names. As a matter of fact, isn't that what most of the academic community has done for ages? What's the difference? You're saying any woman who writes a fiction with these characters in a ship with a woman they're in the wrong because of the "obviously gay characters".

Additionally the female characters in this fandom don't get the same treatment. Somehow they're all straight, they're all there for only their ships, no one ever crossovers the men around them. Oh sure there's Aredhel/ Celegorm, but fyi that's it for her apart from Eöl. Women are treated as wingmen for all the gays, which I don't have an issue with overall, but it's everywhere. Aredhel I know mostly because she's my favourite character, Aredhel who out of the 1,541 works on AO3, 315 of those are her playing wingman or being otherwise in the background for Fingon and Maedhros. Out of the leftover 1,226 Celegorm is her main ship with 295. 172 are her and Eöl. Also, you know how Fingon and Maedhros have 2,754 fics? Comparably we should have as much f/f fic for the other two cousins, Aredhel/ Galadriel---21. Okay okay maybe not Galadriel, maybe Elenwë? 13. This is from a character who a lot of people see as bisexual.

Okay but she's not as popular. What about Galadriel? ....Halbrand/Sauron+Galadriel is 2,130. Celeborn follows with 633. She has a total count of f/f : 348.

Wait what was Maedhros' count on m/m? 3,036.

... in other words this fandom has zero balance. M/M ships are the top ones in spite of them having zero canonical support (Turin/beleg & morgoth/sauron excluded) actually hold on lemme get the silmarillion numbers.

Out of 31,498 fanfics on AO3 of only the Silmarillion. 10,718 are M/M. 5,919 are M/F. 1,289 are F/F.

The ship orders are these.

1. Russingon

2. Angbang

3. Feanor/nerdanel

4. Maedhros/Maglor

5. Celebrian/Elrond

6. Silvergifting

7. Feanor/Fingolfin

8. Erestor/Glorfindel

... in conclusion this fandom is primarily gay, with only two main ships that are heterosexual, and females are supposed to stay in their lane with only the canon ships where the men have wives... in spite of the fact that theres no canon evidence except conjecture that 95% of the men are gay. Even though when you stay in your lane, even the heterosexual men are still categorized as in the closet. Aka everyone. In truth. And if anyone complains about the imbalance they're homophobic.

Is that what you're telling me??

I know we all talk about homophobic straight boy Tolkien nerds, but what about homophobic straight girl Tolkien nerds, the ones who write fanfic of obviously gay characters x f! Readers, the ones who have no grasp that sindarin is not the only elvish language, the ones who idealize aragorn, and love Galadriel for being a girl boss but not Aredhel, the ones who make up fictional, completely canonically unsupported wives for Maedhros and Fingon, the ones who love the women of Tolkien but put tons of uncanon gender roles into elvish society for no reason.

[aceofbooks-creative-anthologies]

I still haven't posted anything about ace x senku (because fuck him), but I'm thinking about how that ship handles our dynamic.

Fundamentally, ace x senku and mikace are the same exact ship. INTP x INTP at our very worst. Competitive and methodical and lofty goals and misunderstandings and over analyzing motivations.

But where mikace becomes very codependent very quickly, even just as friends - ace x senku is forced apart right when we would have become codependent, and have to grow as individuals separately from each other. I think Senku is dead for a good while. Senku has to learn how to work through his blocks without me there to bounce ideas off of.

Which is why Ryusui is an important part of ace x senku. I have to learn to heal from Senku's "betrayals" (yes, plural) and Ryusui provides the love and understanding for me to do that. Ryusui grounds me and shows me a different way of viewing the world. I haven't figured out our break-up yet, but I know that it's going to be amicable and as friends. Ryusui is going to realize that the person I need, now that I've grown and healed, isn't him. And he'll be okay with it because he just wants to see me happy.

Mikace doesn't learn how to exist without each other. We break up every other week. We make our friends pick sides. When we're younger (17/18) we get into cat fights. More than once, we've both ended up with black eyes and sprained wrists or ankles because we thought a sparring match would help solve an argument. We do eventually grow as individuals, but all of our growth happens much too late in the relationship and only after a dozen or so interventions, led by Takemichi.

So yeah, mikace and ace x senku are the same ship, fundamentally. They both bring out the worst in me, and I believe I'd bring out the worst in them (this is also why mikace is exclusively final timeskip). But because of a correctly timed Tsukasa, ace x senku is a much healthier ship (when we get there, eventually; it's pretty toxic for a long while after the empire is dissolved).

[olderthannetfic]

I always see people reminiscing about the Good Ole Days and about how antis are a new thing but. . .is that really true? Or am I just being autistic and taking things too literally, and they just mean it's way more of a common debate now than it used to be before, and that the landscape of shipwank has changed?

Idk, it's like I constantly hear about fandom wank and shipwars and censorship from decades ago, and yes I know "shipping/doxxing/censorship has always existed" can co exist with "antis are new" but I think there's still a bit of a comprehension gap on my end.

am i just dumb? What am I missing here? FWIW - I do feel like the context of "anti" has definitely changed. Back in early 2010s tumblr (I cannot speak of other website/platforms) I remember that tagging something as #Anti Donkey Kong didn't mean you think DK is an evil abusive monster and that everyone who likes him/mains him is also an evil abusive monster and that Nintendo is pushing the evil abusive monster agenda. #Anti Donkey Kong would just be character bashing, wank, letting out your grievances about how ugly DK is, etc, but it was really just a tag used for your own personal opinions (and for DK fans to filter out). Whereas now #Anti Donkey Kong would mean please go die and delete all your accounts if you support DK.

So I definitely know that "anti" has a way more intense definition now than it used to - but for some reason I find it a bit hard to grasp just how new this whole anti thing even is in the firstplace. It honestly makes me sad that I've never seen a pre-anti internet, assuming there really was a time before antis.

--

Antis are new. Specifically, the "Conservative Protestantism in a gay hat" thing that that one tumblr post pointed out is new.

We had doxxing in the past. We had masses of shipwank. We also had "How dare you write that m/m ship. It's bad!"

The key is that the "Your m/m ship is bad" crowd used to openly be conservative Christian homophobes who objected to homosexuality itself. Nowadays, they're queer 20-somethings who like m/m ships but object to gay sex.

It's the anti-kink, anti-fantasy brigade coming from "our side" instead of the outside, essentially. It's respectability politics about "Sempai will love me if I just sanitize The Community and kick out the icky weirdos". It's personal disgust masquerading as morality where once it would have been masquerading as intellectual superiority.

It's a product of queerness being more public and tolerated overall. In the past, a lot of spaces devoted to m/m shipping had to be aggressively in favor of contentious fiction because the existence of anything m/m was itself contentious. There was plenty of "Well, my gay best friend said ___ is unrealistic, and my slash is good, unlike that of you plebes!" There was much less "Fujoshi means fetishizer".

Of course, I'm comparing the 90s internet to now or the mid 00s Livejournal fandom to Tumblr of this past decade. It really depends on whether Ye Olden Times was five years ago or twenty five.

The modern use of the term 'anti' did indeed grow out of the old habit of tagging your hate. As the default cultural mode shifted from "My NOTP is dumb" to "My NOTP is problematic", the usage changed. At some point, antis started getting offended by their self-applied term and pretending that the other side inflicted it on them. This is revisionism. Fiction-is-not-reality had some writeups with citations in the past.

The big shifts were happening around 2012-2016. The long slide into puritywankers being everywhere has only continued since then, but that's where the tipping point seems to have been. TikTok exacerbates this nonsense, and there are clearly plenty of people who are anti-queer and only weaponizing clueless queer youth.

The big shift is that liking m/m used to weed out most of the worst people, and now it attracts lots of them who will not fucking go away because they like the same ship, just the hand-holdy, no dicks can touch ever version.

They spend their time bleating about how AO3 should have been built for them and how anti-censorship activism doesn't matter... because they've grown up in a fandom world dominated by AO3, which shelters them from the reality that the "Ewww, all m/m sucks!" crowd is everywhere on other sites to this day.

That's probably why the shift is when it is. Certain aspects of mainstream queer acceptance were on the rise just as AO3 was getting big. But at the same time, the world is shit and everyone has anxiety they self-medicate through rage and security theater around sniffing out The Bad People.

[nadjasnandor]

what I don't understand is like .... they wrote the guillermo and nandor dynamic the way they did AND made both of them queer. like. nobody asked them to do ANY of that. so turning around and mocking everyone who very reasonably looked at what the writers of this show wrote and said "they are written like a couple" is just a baffling thing to do. imho

Exactly. And if you don't mind, I'm going to use your ask as an excuse to write out why I'm upset about certain things, because what you said is the root of my problem.

My disappoint doesn't come from Nandor/Guillermo not going canon in the traditional sense (at least not fully), but from the very 2010s-esque way everyone seems to be talking about fans post-finale. Basically saying they never intended Nandor & Guillermo to be anything but platonic and blaming the weird fans for wanting their pornographic whishes (🙄) to actually happen in the show, like they were not in any way responsible for creating those wishes, is insulting but, more importantly, not true. And they can't convince me otherwise because I was there, watching the whole thing unfold in real time.

I already mentioned being remotely normal about Nandor/Guillermo pre season 3 and there is a reason for that. During the first season the fandom was small. And by that I mean both Nandor/Guillermo shippers and also the people watching wwdits in general. During season 1, sometimes all you saw when going into the tags was about 5 of my gifsets in a row, for instance. Even if people watched the show, they didn't really interact with it in a fandom-y way. During the middle of s1, I complained about there not being Nandor/Guillermo fics at all and even between s1 and s2 I posted about there not being a lot. It was also this era when the first mentions of possible canon romantic feelings were brought up and it was by Harvey himself, who said he thinks Guillermo has feelings for his boss. This was, of course, only Harvey explaining how he views his character but I feel it's important because, as it's been mentioned before, Harvey came up with a lot of Guillermo's character, starting with his surname. He basically created current Guillermo. In the original pilot script, Guillermo is a 40-something, very bitter man. Quite different from our Guillermo and it's all thanks to Harvey.

But during this period, that is during s1 and s2, anything romantic between Nandor and Guillermo was purely accidental and mostly due to Kayvan and Harvey's chemistry. We all knew this, even if by s2 we did get the first articles about Nandor & Guillermo's relationship being maybe not fully platonic. By the end of season 2, the fandom has grown for sure but it was still nowhere near its current size. We also had Nandor say he treated Guillermo like a son, which was quite annoying but we at least knew where we stood with the show. Didn't stop us from shipping those two, of course, because fandoms have survived on less (Looking back, it is funny how much I hated that line when now it's just *vaguely gestures around*). It's important to note that after season 2, Jemaine left and Paul took over. And then came season 3.

There is a reason why I was so insane about the Cloak of Duplication and then Gail. The former canonized Guillermo's feelings for Nandor on screen for the first time and the latter showed that it was not just a single episode, throw away scene. Instead they continued with Guillermo being jealous of Nandor and his sexual partner. That was huge. But the fandom still hasn't blown up fully, that happened later during season 3. And I think it's important to say that because they wrote and filmed season 3 before the show blew up. They cannot say they wrote those scenes to please (or bait) fans. They weren't 'pressured' to do anything with Nandor and Guillermo. Season 3 was also when the very heavy Nandor/Guillermo promoting started. (Like the parody of The Bodyguard poster with 'Never fall in lo-', for example). Now, I don't remember if the first articles calling them the will-they-won't-they couple of the show came out during this season or later, but it was definitely past season 3. So by the end of season 3 the fandom has grown large and people were obviously very into the ship.

Now we can say shippers are pushy or annoying but fans can be annoying in general. People can be annoying lol. When your show grows big enough, annoying people you don't like are going to watch it too. (I'm sure if those annoying people are cishet men then this burden is easier to bear but I digress. I am a little bitter, after all). But at this point, fans had no reason to be pushy, we thought every sign was pointing to canon romantic Nandor/Guillermo.

At this point, the show saw how large the fandom has grown and how invested people were in Nandor/Guillermo. If that's not what they wanted, if they felt people were seeing things differently than how they intented, they could have pulled back. They had enough time between season 3 and season 4 to do that. But they didn't. Instead, they doubled down and continued to do the same for 2 more season. Even if by season 5 the latest we already had Paul saying weird things about the dynamic.

Instead it seems they decided to pull back in season 6 but by then it was too late. People were expecting them to come through on the thing they have been teasing for 3 seasons. And then they blamed the fans for not liking what they offered up instead. For wanting 'pornographic scenes'. Because it's 'not that kind of a show'. They say this about a show with an episode called The Orgy.

And even while saying all that, they didn't stop them from teasing the fans until the very last moment. Nandor's 'you know what would be cooler than being friends' is just cruel lmao. And that's why it felt more like mocking to me. Not only because of what happened in the show, but because when I watch those scenes, I can't seperate them from how the cast and crew talk about the ship and the fans in interviews. They apparently now think it's stupid and weird but will gladly tease it in the show for whatever reason? It's funny because fans are weird and kinky, I guess. Things unheard of in relation to this show.

I also don't understand Kayvan and Harvey's complete 180 turn. During the early seasons, Kayvan was not really into the idea of the ship, saying it's a bit toxic due to the power imbalance in their dynamic but he seemed to go full throttle later, even overtaking Harvey in hyping the ship up. And then in the first post-finale interview, he says that 'Nandor is never going to have sex with Guillermo', even if the show left that door open with the last scene. And then there's Harvey, who was the first to say Guillermo has feelings for his boss, who is now championing the repserentation of platonic gay male friendships on tv. In his case, I can give him the benefit of doubt, because he must have his own experiences with that and it's not my place to dismiss or doubt them. I do find the change strange and have complained about it but it's more understandable than Kayvan's. (EDIT: I didn't read this interview after the finale but it just makes things even more confusing, if I'm honest.)

I tried to be as coherent as possible and write out all my thoughts about this topic but I most likely still missed some things. I don't really like to talk about my feelings and thoughts this elaborately because I find it difficult to fully express myself but I tried my best because I felt like I was going insane.

[mlobsters]

taking the question in good faith, I will answer in good faith. saw people are being assholes in the reblogs about misha's appearance, which is bullshit, regardless of my feelings on him as a person.

appreciate the points above and will add some thoughts of my own. I went into the show knowing destiel was a huge and popular ship, but not knowing much else. I watched the show in a relative bubble over a year plus. I was already deeply invested in sam and dean's canonical relationship and the wincest ship side of things by the time castiel showed up. I had a friend that was waiting to hear my thoughts on him and it took me a long time to even have an opinion. and by the time I did, it tended toward negative. I liked when he was snarky and powerful but his characterization flip flopped all over the place episode to episode the longer he was on the show. as I was writing up my little recaps I would often boggle over how the show would talk about how dean and cas were best friends and so close, but I (and might be bold to say we the audience) never saw it. he just wasn't around much! supernatural, when it wants to make a point or a parallel, is not subtle about it. it will beat you over the head with their point. I guess the only thing they were hammering home to me was, we aren't gonna take the screen time to show it but these guys are tight, trust us! it was weird to me.

I wrote about my reaction to 15x18 here which was basically where flying fuck did that come from

the longer his character stuck around, the more it reminded me of derek on teen wolf. a fan favorite character that it felt like they didn't intend to have on the show for very long and didn't know what to do with. but the teen wolf run was much shorter and hoechlin left. and I also found some similarities in how popular the ship sterek was, they were similarly working with crumbs of canon. but I didn't see that fandom get weird about it the way certain factions of destiel fans did. maybe they did and just weren't as loud? or since I wasn't around when it was at its peak I didn't see it? but I never got the impression there was this full court press by some to convince people that the ship had roots in canon people were just missing.

I was really soured on supernatural fandom in general by how loudly anti-wincest a lot of people are, I used to go scrolling through the main tags and regularly bump into wincest dni on, you know, gifsets from the show. which is strange and also like okay, yeah. message received, I don't want to be feeling shitty and unwelcome just trying to look around. I understand it's a squick for some people, but I've never been around a fandom that was so loudly hostile to a ship unprovoked.

and equal opportunity souring, within non-destiel fans there's people that hate one of the brothers, making arguments how canonically abusive one of them is, etc. I think that's what a lot of it comes down to for me, headcanon being stated as canon fact. there's always wiggle room in interpretation but so many things are so far outside the show I watched, I just get all riled up which helps no one so I stay away from most show/character discussions at this point.

and if I wasn't already soured on destiel enough, some of things misha has said downright left me appalled. the "balls deep" homophobic cw bullshit comment, joking about jensen's "bdsm paraphernalia." I personally think if most anyone else on the cast talked like this at cons, they wouldn't be invited back. but I guess it's okay with everyone involved or whatever is going on there, so I just try to avoid misha related content in general.

it's a bummer that I'm missing out on destiel fic because there's so much of it, but I wouldn't be able to enjoy it.

I was rereading my sterek bookmarks recently (my personal favorite ship on teen wolf is scott/stiles but there's very little of it comparatively) and now that I'm out of the thick of my tw fixation period, I notice how out of character they often need to push to make the story work. and that's totally fine and cool, but the way my brain works, I'm much more interested and invested in the ship that I see reflected on screen. even while actively wanting and looking for the sterek potential in the show, there just wasn't much of it. that was the one thing that did surprise me, how little fans were working with. I love the creativity and the way they've made so much with so little.

so I'm sure I could have enjoyed destiel fic at one point in the same way I did sterek if I was never exposed to spn fandom outside of AO3.

these days I make stuff for fandoms and read fic, but otherwise don't really engage with other people's stuff. I follow a few spn people that I know I vibe with, but that's about it. I'm too literal minded in some ways and inflexible about certain things, it's just best I stay away from most stuff.

and I usually avoid engaging in this type of post too but guess I had some things that have been bubbling around my head for a while that I wanted to get out

Non Destiel Shippers, what stops you from shipping them?

What are the reasons you don't ship them? Im just curious, not looking for a fight.

[calware]

as time goes on my interesting in shipping (for homestuck) (that's really the only fandom i'm in) has just gone down lower and lower because i used to see "shipping" as just "characters who were compatible in some way". for example i would look at karkat and feferi and be like "they didn't interact much but a lot was going on with the two of them in terms of their themes and how those themes intersect. and since romantic relationships are "more complex" or "better" or "more potent" than other relationships the natural progression is to ship them together romantically" but the stuff that would make them potentially interesting as a pairing isn't inherently romantic at all. and i feel like that goes for a lot of if not most of the characters. homestuck to me is way more centered on the idea of friendship (and family sometimes but moreso friendship) than romance and when characters have something important going on between them the interesting part is usually not inherently romantic

even the characters that start dating where their romantic attraction IS very important is based on their initial friendship..!! vrisrezi wouldn't be nearly as meaningful if they weren't friends first, same with dirkjake, etc. arasol is such a popular ship and they only dated once when they were 8 years old…. their relationship from that point on is SO important to who they are but it isn't even inherently romantic after the fact, but people see romance as the "natural progression" from there so clearly they "should" date once they get the chance to do so again. my point is i wish people would pay more attention to some of the non-romantic aspects of relationships in hs because i really think that's what takes center stage within the story most of the time (not ALL of the time of course there are definitely parts where romance is important. but you get what i'm saying)

and then of course to take that a step further and be even more of a hater i'm so tired of people taking stuff and putting it into a romantic context when it's entirely unnecessary…. i made a video with dave and karkat bickering and people tagged it as davekat for no reason. literally that post about dirk and john meeting each other that people kept tagging as dirkjohn for no reason. i'll make posts about the alpha kids being friends and doing stuff together and someone went through my entire blog tagging all of these as "alphacule" for no reason. i'll draw dirk and hal literally just looking at each other and someone will tag it as dirkhal. girl they're just looking at each other. seeing someone liveblog collide and they go "did anyone else think dirk and dave should've kissed >_<??" no i actually don't think they would do that. it's so dark in here

[scoobydoodean]

I have 2 spn accounts, a Deancentric blog that ships Destiel and another account that unintentionally follows a lot of Samgirl blogs. So one blog follows majority Deangirl blogs and the other incidentally follows a lot of Samgirl blogs. And here's the major difference I've noticed on the different dashboards.

Deangirl dashboard: Great meta analysis. Beautiful art. Level 1 and 2 headcanons (largely based in canon). Pro-Dean. Stumble across reblogs of Deancrit. Bitter Deangirl blogging. Generally fair portrayal and discussion of the positive and negative traits and actions of Dean, Sam and Cas. Deanhater anons.

Samgirl dashboard: An entirely different pool of beautiful art. Whole lotta woobie!Sam art where Dean is his abuser. Deancrit about Dean being an abuser. Bitter Samgirl blogging about how people will find any excuse to hate Sam. "How can anyone be Samcrit he has done nothing wrong ever." Level 5 headcanons (you literally ignored canon to make that up). More about how Dean is Sam's abuser. So many posts about how awful Samcrit is. "Do Deangirls really think that Dean cries himself to sleep at night thinking that ppl thinks he doesn't know how to read." I have yet to see any actual Samcrit posts (not even links or reblogs from Sam defenders), not even after literally searching the Samcrit tag for it. The Samcrit tag is full of Samgirls crying about Samcrit and no actual Samcrit. "Samgirls are feral, but we need to be bc of the hate ppl throw Sam's way."

I literally have to block so many people on the incidentally Samgirl dashboard bc I'm not on Tumblr to randomly stumble across a post on how Dean is a toxic stalker who abused Sam by changing Amelia's number in his cellphone. Do you have any idea on why Samgirls seem to feel so attacked all the time even though I literally only ever see *them* attacking Dean?

If you dig deep enough into any fandom, you will encounter people who fetishize "helpless victimhood". Some fandoms attract more people with those particular proclivities than others. Supernatural and Sam in particular attracts people who hold those sorts of aesthetic interests because of his relationship toward accountability versus Dean's.

Dean is a character with an overactive sense of responsibility. He blames himself for the Lindbergh baby and unemployment and every child murdered by a shrtiga from 1990 to 2005 because he went to play an arcade game when he was 10. He also blames himself for things like Jessica dying and Sam not being in school. Other characters pile on this blame frequently. John blames Dean for Sam getting hurt (1.18). Ruby tells him (and Sam) that Sam is a weak baby who won't psychologically survive without Dean there to protect him (3.11). Meg alleges that Dean is "dragging Sam everywhere" (1.16). Sam rewrites reality from 1.05 to 1.21 to make Dean responsible for his burning desire for revenge. Cas and Zachariah and Gabriel blame Dean when Sam breaks the last seal because he didn't stop Sam in time. Sam blames Dean for him drinking demon blood first because Dean wasn't there to protect him and then—in a complete 180—because Dean is smothering (4.04, 5.05). Dean generally absorbs blame when it is piled at his feet because he has been blamed for things he couldn't control for most of his life and thus he feels guilty and responsible for things even when him being responsible makes no logical sense. He's never a victim of anything—everything is always on him.

Sam, on the other hand, tends to eventually deflect blame because he can't handle the gnawing bite of it for long. It reminds him too deeply of being left isolated and alone as a child and the feelings of otherness and wrongness he developed through that neglect. When his actions ultimately have consequences he didn't foresee and/or that he finds undesirable, it makes him feel ugly and unaccepted and he can't face it so he eventually finds a way to make what happened someone else's fault—usually Dean's fault. Nothing is ever on him. He's always at least a little bit of a victim and Dean always carries at least partial responsibility for his decisions (1.21, 1.08, 4.04, 5.05, 8.23, 11.01)

In other words, Sam has an under-active sense of responsibility and Dean has an overactive responsibility and that dynamic—driven by their childhood experiences—places them into a vicious cycle of blame being cast onto Dean for Sam's decisions and Dean absorbing it. Dean absorbing it reinforcing the narrative for samgirls with a victimhood fetish that Dean deserves blame and that Sam truly is a helpless baby. They never watch what actually happens on the show to see whether this narrative that Dean is responsible for everything and Sam is a helpless baby lines up with the actual events that occurred onscreen because why would they? That would ruin their enjoyment. Sam isn't interesting to them outside of his capacity to be mourned as some sort of helpless martyr. And yes—they will cry and moan about how horrible and unfair Sam's suffering is, but it isn't because they're having a bad time. They're having a great time. They love thinking about Sam that way. They wouldn't be here blogging about it day in and day out for the last 20 years if they didn't actually want to see exactly what they're seeing.

Related tags of note:

#sams motivations

#taurus sam in the flesh

#In which Sam is not a helpless little waif with his hands cast over his eyes being carried along by the tides of the immutable sea

#sam the hunter

#sams follower/leader false dichotomy

#parentification

[logosbot-tm]

I'm not even a shipper but I did see a post (and several tbh) about Mumbo's death in wild life being turned into Mumbo being a rebound/replacement for Scar??? It's so weird even as a nonshipper I know Grian and Mumbo have been iconically Like That (and everybody knows it and jokes about it) for years. I'm convinced a chunk of this fanbase just skips through video

I will say that I'm not fully sure why this was sent to me, but yeah, I've seen it too. Gonna take off the shipping goggles for a hot sec.

(More below the cut...like a lot more, this ended up as a long ass ramble)

Mumbo's treatment within fandom is rather... odd, in my opinion. He gets pushed to the side a lot, he's treated as if he's pathetic (which yes, Ik that the "wet cat" thing is a joke, but when he's consistently portrayed as pathetic you start to wonder), he's treated as a replacement/rebound for Scar, Grian and his interactions are spun into being about Desert Duo (yes, I've seen this happen multiple times, its weird), disloyal, completely incompetent, and when he died he was immediately talked about as "The new canary".

Which

1) That was Jimmy's curse, why are you trying to apply it to someone else who doesn't fit?

2) No, Mumbo wasn't the first one out when the curse was first broken, that was Lizzie

Mumbo and Grian's friendship is also treated as Not As Important As Desert Duo™️. Grian being distraught about Mumbo's death? Nah, let's focus on Desert Duo being friends instead. Grian bringing Mumbo (and Skizz) back to life? Let's focus on the fact that Scar and Grian flew around together (which is cute don't get me wrong). Mumbo killing Grian after being instructed to do so? Let's talk about how this a Desert Duo parallel.

Hell, Grian and Mumbo's friendship isn't even the biggest "victim" of being twisted as only existing to further the Desert Duo narrative. The friendship that has been most affected by it (within fandom ofc), is Grian and BigB's friendship.

Which, is even odder to me. Grian and BigB have known each other for ages, Grian went and looked for BigB himself (because He Wanted To Be Secret Soulmates), Grian said in 3rd life that he didn't want to kill BigB, and the two of them have known each other for long as hell and have even travelled to Sweden together irl (wayback in like 2017).

There's a lot to say about the fandom's treatment of BigB but yeah, not what this post is about.

It's very difficult to interact with fandom content within both the Life Series and Hermitcraft nowadays. You can't escape Desert Duo or Scarian, even if you try. A lot of the time another ship tag, duo tag, or character tag ends up clogged with Desert Duo/Scarian stuff, and if you block the tag it gets filled with blacked out post saying "This post contains Scarian, do you want to see it anyway?" (<can't remember the exact wording), and often UNTAGGED Scarian/Desert Duo posts pop up in other tags, often tagged with another ship that has nothing to do with the post (<Seen this happen a few times in the Grumbo tag). The Scaridarity tag is filled with Scarian posts, which makes it hella annoying to go through/follow that tag.

And yes. Grian and Mumbo have been a duo since... 2017? 2018? Somewhere around there. They're genuinely close as all hell, having gone on a roadtrip together, and having travelled to Sweden together. They both put references to each other in their videos all the time, they have a robot son named after their (at the time) duo/ship name, and in the life series they've been on a team 2/3 times + they always base closely on Hermitcraft (more than once they've linked their bases, more than once they've had a messaging system).

But nowadays that's largely ignored/pushed to the side, and for a little while there was this odd idea about a "Grumbo divorce".

Which, yes I know it was a joke, but also...what???

On the Hermitcraft server, the Hermits doesn't interact all the time. It's literary called /Hermit/-craft. Often, this is because the Hermits are busy with their own projects, things irl, or they just don't interact. This doesn't mean that a ship is getting "divorced" or anything. Hell, it's a ship. The shipping shouldn't be your main focus when watching a video. The shipping is just something for fun.

So yeah, it was weird to see the "Grumbo divorce" jokes be made, when they're still very close, and Are Still Like That™️ about each other.

There's also this odd thing I've noticed within the fandom, where people can't let Grian and Scar do things on their own without twisting it into Scarian.

No, I promise that in the escape room video that Scar wasn't in, Grian didn't think at all about the fandom's headcanon that Scar is a vex.

All this being said, I also have to say that:

I don't hate Scarian. Does it frustrate me? Yes! Very much so.

But that's because of the fandom. I am a Scarian shipper, I enjoy Scarian, and I enjoy Desert Duo a lot. The fandom has made that experience a lot less enjoyable, because of the weird treatment of other people, because you can't escape it even if you try, because everything gets twisted into Scarian/Desert Duo all the time.

It's frustrating, because it's barely the Hermitcraft or the life series fandom anymore, it's basically the Scarian fandom.

Which, fine, I get it. Its the biggest ship, and I understand the enjoyment of it, nothing wrong with that.

But there's other people on both servers, other duos, other teams, and I promise you everything isn't about Scarian all the time.

I think that Scarian shippers/Desert Duo enjoyers mainly watch Scar's videos, with shipping goggles already on, and then they watch Grian's. They read into things that genuinely doesn't matter, all to further the narrative of Scarian. (I'm not saying everyone does this, or that they do it on purpose, but it comes across as such.)

I can't say that I haven't read too much into something because of a ship, hell, I've been here for Mumbo and Grian as a duo since before the duo even existed.

But to me it feels as if it's going a tad bit too far now.

I keep seeing more and more people get frustrated and tired of Scarian/Scarians, and I get it entirely. I see this happen from multiple corners, from multiple people.

Also, Grian and Mumbo are a duo to such an extent that the Hermits comment and joke about it, hell, even non-Hermits do that. I mean Tommyinnit straight up said "You (Grian) and Mumbo come as a pair".

I'd also like to mention the odd treatment of Grumboers from Scarian. Yes, I know that some Grumbo shippers have entered the Scarian tag just to hate on it, don't do that. Just... genuinely, don't do that, what the hell are you even doing actually.

But when Scar said that people were "Annoyed with him and Grian teaming together all the time" (Which they haven't done. They've interacted a lot, which ain't surprising. They're p good friends), there was an odd wave of posts I saw that blamed Grumboers?

I assure you, that whole thing wasn't our fault. People who've complained about that have done so in the YouTube comments, on reddit, and ofc some have done so on twitter (which is just an awful cesspool of negativity, which is why I don't use it).

It's not our fault. A lot of Grumbo shippers are also Desert Duo enjoyers/Scarian shippers. I mean, I am.

There's also this odd narrative that "Grumbo shippers never experienced this much hate when Grumbo was the biggest ship"

Which is just blatantly false.

In the past, people got hate and death threats for shipping. Didn't matter what you shipped, you got hate for it.

At the time, there was a bunch of posts, much more negatively charged than this one, where people went "This isn't the Mumbo and Grian fandom, stop treating it as such." There were a lot of posts about how Grumboers were annoying as all hell, and how we clogged tags. There were straight up hate posts being spread, often by the majority of the fandom.

Shipping with in the Hermitcraft fandom wasn't accepted at all, and Zombiecleo got bullied of off tumblr for saying that she didn't care if people were engaging in shipping.

I'm glad that shipping is accepted now, because by god it was an awful time, but don't say that "Grumbo shippers never had it this bad". We had it a lot worse. Shippers as a whole had it a lot worse. Don't pretend like it didn't happen, and don't try to act as if it's only Scarian shippers that have been hated.

In all honesty, I'm just tired of all of this. Like really tired. I'm tired of seeing everything get twisted into Scarian/Desert Duo, I'm tired of the ignorance of the fandom's past, and I'm tired of seeing hate aimed at any ship/shippers

But I do think that its time to leave the desert. It's not fun to be in the fandom anymore due to the behaviour. Sure, keep shipping, keep having fun. But for God's sake please stay in your lane, tag your things properly, and please stop trying to force Scarian/Desert Duo upon everyone.

I don't think that the hate is deserved, but everything isn't about Desert Duo.

This is most likely the only time I'll make a post like this, and I'm only making it because I'm finally fed up and tired.

Thank you for the ask.

[ecoterrorist-katara]

meta list + blog nav

turns out most of my metas are just me being salty about the way Bryan and Mike wrote Katara...more news at 11...

Katara’s parentification

the tragedy of Katara’s parentification & (context: parentified children as maladjusted children)

Katara’s crush on Jet

Toph brings out Katara’s inner child & Toph and Suki as people Katara didn't have to take care of

Katara’s post-ATLA arc

Katara didn’t want a quiet life after the war

Katara was a role model and her post-ATLA arc is a failure in representation

Katara being the Chief of the SWT wouldn't conflict with LOK's plot or her relationship

Katara would’ve been an amazing diplomat

Why Katara’s specific healer career didn’t fit her character

bloodbending & why Katara banning it could be in character in a sad way

Zutara & Zutara discourse

Zutara, romance novels, & the female gaze

“Zutara is a self-insert ship” is not a burn, it’s just misogyny

Is Zutara colonizer x colonized: my serious take, my less serious take

the crystal catacombs & how Katara sees Zuko’s pain

Zutara's two distinct ship dynamics

Why I think the way Ka/taang is written is male gaze-y

(KA is just one of those "bitch eating crackers" ships for me...block the #anti kataang tag if you don't want to see it)

Ka/taang: friends-to-lovers or the friend zone?

How Ka/taang is written to be one-sided

Aang’s not a “feminist icon” because the only stereotypically masculine part of his arc is his romance

Misc. character stuff (not just ATLA)

Aang's nuances beyond "sunshine boy"

Rethinking Hama's storyline + some thoughts on the symbolism of bloodbending

Some thoughts on Hermione being autistic coded & her flaws

Blog housekeeping/tags navigation under the cut

Tag Navigation

asks are tagged #can i ask you a question (yeah that's a TSwift ref even though there's minimal Tayposting on this blog); all my metas are tagged #my meta; Zutara fic recs are tagged #zutara fic recs. #zutara and other ship tags (e.g. #azutara) usually contain art, misc ship things, and metas

frequently used salty tags include #anti kataang, #anti bryke, and #katara deserved better

Original posts that involve analysis of Harry Potter are tagged #ref: hp for blocking purposes. I don’t financially support JKR or her harmful rhetoric & actions against trans people, but I choose to engage with parts of the HP fandom that reject her views. In the HP context, I am most likely to talk about #hermione granger. I like Dramione, but I also like Ron quite a lot. I'm very into Wolfstar.

Fundraisers

I post fundraisers that have been verified by third parties. Unfortunately I don't have the bandwidth to verify fundraisers myself.

Fandom Housekeeping

I don't make callout posts of specific users, even if I decide to block them myself, so please don’t use my ask box for that purpose!

[nqueso-emergency]

I wrote this because I needed to get it off my chest. But then I didn't want to put it on my own blog because I didn't want to deal with the discourse. So, I decided to send it to you in the hope you'd put it up.

I've been in many different fandoms, and I think the only fandom where I ever very actively shipped a canon couple was Torchwood. (If there are people not shipping Jack and Ianto, please never tell me.) That means, of course, there were always other LI of my ships to deal with. And somehow, no matter the fandom (NICS, Hawaii 5-0, Sherlock (mostly), Stargate, etc pp) it's always the same: If the fic takes place at a point in canon where one or more people in the desired ship are currently in a relationship usually one of two things happens: 1. The canon LI just doesn't seem to exist in the fic. 2. There is somewhere one line about "Oh, what about Character A?" "Ah, we broke up. No big deal." (And writing this, I'm kinda laughing now about the Buck/Natalia break-up between seasons 6 and 7.)

So, it's very strange and confusing to watch this part of the Buddie fandom that's so enraged about Tommy and has made hating him their whole fandom personality, who instead of doing what's always been done with LIs that were in the way of a ship created this whole subgenre on 9-1-1 fics now whose whole focus is "How do we overcome the obstacle of the unwanted LI to get our ship". (As I write this, there are 800 fics on ao3 tagged with both ships!) Where did the mentality of "ignore the LI in the way of our ship" vanish to? It was there for other LIs of Buck and Eddie in the past, why isn't it there for Tommy? Why can't a multishipper go into the Buddie tag in peace without being slapped in the face with Tommy bashing everywhere? (And why do you have to bash Buck and Eddie, too, while doing so? I know you don't recognize it, but that's what you're doing with many of those takes about the cheating. That's what you are doing every time you make Eddie into a violent caricature just so you have someone who can beat Tommy up.)

The hate against Tommy has a very different quality and edge to it than the hate for other LIs in the past, and this new genre you all created is a huge part of that.

And before anyone starts, yes there are a lot of bashing fics about the other LI. I've read a lot of them. The vast majority of those are not about finding a way to get the LI out of the way for Buddie (especially not by glorifying Buddie cheating on their LIs) They are about exploring little things of the characters people find jarring or exaggerating those things to use as a plot or plot device. (e.g. Ana's ableist take after the whole skateboard incident. Or her unprofessional behavior of flirting with a parent during parent-teacher-conference.)

As for the very worn-out mantra/whine of "Why could I peacefully hate on the female LIs in the past but aren't allowed to do the same with Tommy?" No one would bother you if you stopped pushing your hate on everyone else.

But you're trying to infiltrate every single nook with your hatred because somehow you don't understand while you're entitled to your hate about Tommy, other people are just as equally entitled to their love and appreciation of the character and the representation he provides. It's not just the Buddie tag people are bombarded with your hate in. No matter what tag — Bathena, Henren, Madney, every single character tag — you'll stumble over Tommy hate pretty fast. Because you tag them all if they matter for your post or not. (I mean, you've done that with Buddie in general for years, which also was never okay!) Or find cheap excuses to include them in your post.

People would let you wallow in your hate peacefully if you wouldn't attack anyone who didn't agree with you. Especially those gay and bi men in this fandom who are full of gratefulness and praise for the representation of their lived experiences 9-1-1 has given them through Tommy and Bucktommy. Who've been calling you out for your hateful and phobic behavior because there is no avoiding being confronted with it.

No one would bother you if you wouldn't post public lists of people you plan to bully in the future!

I guess the point of this long-ass rant is: Get in your fucking lane and let everyone else enjoy the fandom, too. Keep your hate where others can avoid it. It's not that difficult. And believing everyone has to agree with you about your hate is a huge red flag.

Perfectly said, anon 👏

"You" = bestie boos btw

[bloggingboutburgers]

I think everyone will benefit from properly tagging posts. xreader fics abd ship fics ONLY include the relevent _x_ tags but none of the character's name on its own, allowing all the usual fanart, theories and such to stay on the main name tag and not be crowded out by horny fanfiction (I say this as someone who very much enjoys very horny, very smutty xreader fanfictions. I want to be able to search the fics I want directly without having to trawl through headcanon posts, fanart, unrelated ship posts, etc.).

No one really has a tailored experience on the internet (I'm glad tumblr is at least a little more user dictated than advertiser algorithm based), but I do get the frustration and discomfort that comes from the abundant hornyposting feeling inescapable.

It's tempting to take offence to persistent cries against xreader stuff. I like special POV episodes of shows for the same reason I like xreader fics. My favourite characters WERE the company I kept, my only real form of companionship (albeit simulated) for many many years. Not because I am allo, basically. I sought something to meet my social needs growing up where I was unable to find community or companionship in real life.

Unfortunately, because they are usually sexual in nature I just came to associate a need for human connection with sex (so am I allo or just conditioned to blend sexual, platonic and romantic feelings and actions together?). I was just happy to feel like I had someone to hang out with. I knew they weren't real and that I needed to find real people to connect with (not for lack of trying, kids are just cruel. Finally made friends as an adult, yay).

Didn't intend for any of that to be so sad or pathetic, but hopefully it gives context for the prevalence of xreader fics. Alongside the varied reasons people write / read them (no just blind allo horniness), especially in light of the widespread loneliness epidemic over the past decade.

It's still more than ok to not want anything to do with them either (be it due to being aroace or not - I know plenty of allos who find xreader fics cringe).

Something I need to clarify here – we get it. Well, we don't fundamentally get it, but trust me, we've been told time and time again why people would write/draw/be into xreader content (it's all part of the package of "aroaces MUST put themselves in allo people's shoes at all times"), and we know they're perfectly legitimate reasons, and we don't find it sad or pathetic, or cringe. At the very least I don't at all. That's not what it's about. It's not something as surface-level at that.

The thing is... The same kind of understanding effort is VERY rarely put forward in return for us. And the fact that we're perceived as naysayers is symptomatic of this. We're not crying against xreader content. People are free to do whatever they want. We just want it to be tagged to keep ourselves safe, and so we can appreciate some variety and find fandom content we can properly connect with with the identity we have.

The issue isn't that there is xreader content, or heck, that there's lots of it. It's that, as @kaoruko-han put it, "everyone is assumed to be into this", and that you can't express something as simple as "I'd rather read something else" without being finger-pointed as a villain.

Yeah, no one has a tailored experience online, but there's still a very clear lack of balance on what is acceptable to tailor to or not (and for us, that includes tumblr). And trying to find fan-content while being sex-repulsed? Bruh, you'd better pray on your lucky stars and be ready to trudge through an ocean of stuff that's loaded with the very thing that makes you scared, uncomfortable or downright triggers a feeling of sickness in you, because a lot of it ain't tagged. An alarming amount of people don't bother, because why would people like you exist, right? There's only ever them, and puritan bigots. It's that black and white in a lot of people's heads.

Here's the difference though: we, too, want people to be able to vibe to whatever fan content they want. We just wish "people" included us properly in this case. As it stands now, trying to find fan content that won't give you an uncomfortable feeling as a sex-repulsed person feels kinda like this (I'll try to illustrate that to the best of my ability as a vague comparison, please no one take that as a clear parallel, I'm literally just trying to explain how it feels in a way people who have no idea how it feels might understand): you're not into gore at all, you don't wanna look at it, but your streaming platform keeps recommending you those series that are loaded with gore. You try to filter it out, but no matter where you go, you keep being recommended those series. And no one ever gets your discomfort and you're being branded as nothing but a wet blanket for not wanting to see gore. It's kinda like that.

At this point I admire sex-repulsed or romance-repulsed people who still TRY to find anything at all in fandom spaces. I've stopped reading fanfic altogether and I've largely stopped engaging with the large majority of fandom spaces for those reasons. And that wasn't an easy choice, or one that I find fun because it feels incredibly lonely, but it's the result of years of exhaustion and strain on my mental health trying to navigate something that's so hostile to me at its core, even if it's unintentional.

So... Yeah. We know the reasons, just like the content itself, they're kinda impossible to ignore. But we are largely being ignored in this, and it's not just something at an "ick" or "picky" level ; for a sex-repulsed person, being spammed with sex entails much more than that. It's not even frustration anymore at this point, it's downright despair a lot of the time. So... Yeah, like you said, everyone would benefit from stuff being more properly tagged. For us it'd be so huge to know our safety is taken into account – that we're taken into account at all. Thing is, we're not, and we're so invisible in this and most other things that at this point, I don't have much hope. Sex-related controversies allo people can understand would sooner create a change than anything done for our sake.

[zenkindoflove]

You guys do not want to go down the road of starting to make blanket declarations that specific ships are "problematic" and "triggering". And let me explain why.

ACOTAR fandom, in my experience, is notoriously very far removed from general fandom. It's big and dispersed across many platforms that weren't created around fandoms, and so a lot of people enter it having little to no experience in other fandoms.

This discourse about what is or isn't a problematic ship and what kind of person ships a couple like that is not new. Fandoms of yesterday yore have had long fights about this and a general consensus has emerged which is anytime you start playing the morality policing game around people having fun with fictional characters, everyone loses.

Let's take this situation with Elain Archeron Week which is explicitly banning submissions for Elain with characters who are canonically known to be abusive to a romantic partner. Generally, the spirit of character weeks are to be ship neutral and importantly a concept that has emerged from prior fandom morality policing debate is the term Ship and Let Ship. Which means just because something isn't YOUR ship doesn't mean you need to come up for reasons why it isn't CORRECT to ship.

So, you think it's morally incorrect and triggering for people to see Elain paired with an abuser or a "bad guy"? That is okay for your own personal beliefs but if you start making rules around it for something that is supposed to be inclusive where do you draw the line or what that means? How about pairing Elain with the guy who runs Night Court Abu Ghraib? A role that means he actually tortures people physically and mentally to the brink that they are forced to "confess" to crimes. Is that some how morally superior to another character who emotionally abused their partner and confined them to a house?

See. That didn't feel good. Now did it? Do you actually want to get into a discussion about which wrong is morally worse than the other? Especially when it concerns a character week that is supposed to be about positivity and people having fun because they love Elain and they love the different interactions she could potentially have with characters in fanon?

And that is the entire point. When it comes to fiction, we all will be seduced by characters who have done bad things. Things that will trigger people. But, and I mean this whole heartedly, no one else is responsible for your triggers but you. You are the only one who knows what you can and cannot handle. Your Mileage May Vary. Tumblr's tag filtering system is in part for this very reason because of how fandoms use tumblr.

When you have a fandom wide event space, generally it's a bad idea to start throwing up these judgmental rules around people's character interests and shipping habits. Of course, any event runner is entitled to do what they please. But you also have to expect those who are excluded or know people who will be excluded are going to have something to say about it.

I really think the entire ACOTAR fandom could benefit from getting curious for once and actually digging into the histories of fandom, fandom lore and vocabulary, and start learning from from fandom elders. If so, we'd all be able to navigate these situations with a shared language that recognizes that the primary goal of fandom is to have fun first. And everyone's fun is going to look different and each individual is responsible for deciding what their squicks and triggers are. And the whole point of a squick is to let someone know this thing bothers me personally but I understand if it doesn't bother you. That sort of back and forth empathy across each side is how fandoms don't burn down in flames and people don't feel shame about what they like in fiction.

Now any fandom event can make whatever rules they want. But what I already see is a bunch of people (e/riels) are now actually making posts about why others who ship Elain with Tamlin are morally inferior, disgusting, perverse, and bad people. But hear me out, someone can easily think and say the same thing about you and your ship and if that is the kind of environment you'd like to fuck around in, well, aren't we all the worse off for it.

[epickiya722]

Quit throwing your pointless headcanons, you're not Gege Akutami, he made YutaMaki Canon. End of discussion, you and your shipping fandom are the worst, ignoring Canon stuff for the sake of stupid ships, NO ONE in Gege's work is gay, those are just sick and stupid headcanons, if you all are so pressed about making up stuff that you claim Gege making, show the proof. Show the proof where it says he stated everyone are gay come on. I dare you

Anon, come here. Come give me a hug, okay? You seem like you need it. Are you having a bad day or something? It's okay, we all have our bad days.

Now, Anon, if you saw my headcanons "pointless", why didn't you just ignore them?

You called me "pressed" but I'm not the one sending a raging message in someone's inbox over, what did you say, headcanons. Anon, I'm very disappointed in you, honestly.

You demand of me to show "proof" for my headcanons, but why? I genuinely don't understand why should I do that. They're headcanons, right? Based on feeling and interests, right? Why do I need evidence for feelings?

Now, I feel like it's only fair that you show me how that ship is canon. Maybe I read the wrong manga, but I didn't see them kiss or anything. Maki didn't even get mentioned in any of the epilogues that I can recall.

"Ignoring canon stuff for the sake of your stupid ships". Actually, Anon, a lot of why people ship is because of canon material. People ain't shipping NobaMaki out of nowhere. In canon, we literally have Maki and Nobara having that cute scene back in season 1. ShokoHime are freaking drinking buddies and are always happy to see each other. I could go all day about the canon stuff between ItaFushi and don't get me started on SatoSugu. Do not get me started!

Seriously, Anon, what could have I possibly have done to you to attack me? Rather aggressive, you know. It's actions like that is why shipping culture ain't getting better.

Think, Anon, think!

Which is worse? Someone posting their headcanons that could easily be ignored and scrolled past? Or someone sending angry messages to someone's inbox over said headcanons that again can be easily ignored?

I don't know about you, but I'm choosing the latter.

I'm guessing, just a guess now, you're one of those Yuta/Maki shippers who get mad that not everyone ships them, right? If like people should only stick to "canon" because "it's what's right, no gay"! On the side, maybe only acknowledges that "Maki loves Yuta and she's only meant to be his wife" and sees her as such and not the great female character she is? Hm?

In your spare time you purposely scroll through the tags of ships you "hate" to target people because maybe you're bored, want to start a little chaos? Feeling miserable that not everyone cares about your ship?

Again, just a guess.

I'm still trying to figure why you came at me all hostile. Like if your ship is "canon" you shouldn't feel threatened by anything I post about my ship. You "won", right? Why are you wasting time here and not celebrating? You can't allow me to suffer in sadness, oh woe is me, Gege didn't make my ship canon? By the way, that's sarcasm.

Unlike you, I'm not angry over people shipping whatever is canon and not canon. I'm rather more interested in posting about my ships. Rather be happy than angry. Try it, Anon. No, I am serious. I think of you stop worrying about what other people ship, you'll be genuinely happier.

Anyways, I hope you have a nice day! (˶ˆᗜˆ˵)

[vanmarkus]

Do you also have the feeling a lot of great people stopped posting and especially writing? Or have they all blocked me? The tags are full but mostly with newer fans who don't seem to have actually watched the show (no offense, although..) and the writers circle seems tiny

well, dear anon, i will be very real with you, it mostly comes down to season 7 and specifically Tommy's reintroduction, the whole bucktommy of it all, or even more specifically the infighting it started.

911 was never really the 911 fandom; it was the buddie fandom with a few blurps of other (canon) ships sprinkled in there, only to get lost due to lack of interest/bad behaviour. (believe me, people were really shitty before all this too)

but now we have two main ships.

which would be okay if people could understand the difference between reality and fiction and could just pay attention to the stuff they like and not get violent and for whatever reason bigoted towards real fans over disliking a character or ship.

i talked endlessly about how all the criticism of Tommy's character basically comes down to "i don't vibe with it, so no one else should either" so i won't go into that, but unfortunately what you saw and still see on the dash is only half of the story.

lots of people ended up unfollowing and blocking people they used to talk to on the daily over this fictional ship, which... you know, if that's all it took i wouldn't necessarily call those "friendships", but it definitely changed how people interact with fan creations.

doing wip games was always about two things; to exchange exposure and to motivate each other and ourselves to write.

those pre-existing tag-chains are mostly broken now and i know that a lot of writers don't want to expose themselves to "the other side" by sharing wips and get demotivated by people being rude, so they keep writing without sharing snippets.

and some people lost the motivation/inspiration to write for the fandom altogether.

it sucks and yeah, people who didn't watch the show aside from scenes of their faves should not be monopolising the tags — as far as i'm concerned they aren't part of the fandom at all. (if you can't even be bothered to watch the source material, why are you even here, genuinely.)

anyway, this got long, but the point is that you're right in your observation and it doesn't just go for writing.

interaction on edits and gifsets and the like have drastically fallen, because so many people have blocked each other, every post has to go through a bazillion blind spots to get to at least 3 more people's dash; because one person will reblog it and then they will be blocked by 5 others who would love to see your content but the people they still follow don't follow anyone that'd reblog your stuff and so on.

TLDR: this fandom is fucked and it's sad, but it is what it is i guess.

[djarinsyndulla]

The Star Wars fandom has never gone this hard or been this invested in any Asian or Black character, ESPECIALLY a Black woman. The Star Wars fandom has never been going this hard for an interracial relationship involving no white people. So for me yeah, it is pretty telling that now is the time some people are deciding to declare everyone lacks media literacy because allegedly we can't tell or admit a man is a bad person because people are sooo blindsided by his looks.

It's the same exact way people adore Anakin/Vader, Maul, Kylo, Revan, Shin, etc. But now that a South East Asian man is playing the Sith y'all suddenly have to "suffer" seeing him a lot and people enjoying his character? When I called out the person who made the og post, they said "I didn't mention Qimir and wasn't only talking about him" like k bro....I know you think everyone but yourself is an idiot or something but just know I'm not and that I know there's no coincidence you literally TAGGED that post as "the acolyte". The claim it was only tagged as "The Acolyte" because it's the "most recent example" is total BS. You purposefully tagged The Acolyte, Acolyte Spoilers, Qimir, Osha Aniseya, ALL OF IT because you weren't talking about the fandom with ships and dark side characters as a whole, you were specifically talking about The Acolyte, Qimir and Osha.

And yeah, it definitely does feel racially coded. Everyone knows this show, the creator and the actors have been enduring a MASSIVE racist, misogynist, and homophobic hate campaign against this show for literally over a year before it even aired, and you have people making posts about how UNBEARABLE it is that they're going to have to see the fandom be obsessed with a sith played by a handsome Filipino and be excited over Oshamir, an interracial ship involving no white people but a Black woman and an Asian man, as if Star Wars fans have a good track record of treating characters of color well. It IS adding to the overall negativity of the show and convincing others not to watch it for your petty little reasons when this is without a doubt the best show Star Wars has released yet on Dinsey+ and by far the most diverse. Have any criticisms you want about The Acolyte, it's totally fair, but this "criticism" I'm referring to was just an attack on people enjoying the show, claiming stupid shit like a "lack of media literacy" over something everyone already knows like the fact Qimir isn't a good guy. Here's something that might shock y'all: we know, AND WE DON'T CARE.

Anyway I hope Oshamir, Qimir, and Osha continue to pop up on these peoples timelines and continue to make things unbearable for them. Because if enemies to lovers is all good when it involves someone like Shin and Sabine, but not when it involves Qimir and Osha, then you're a hypocrite and not to be dramatic your life deserves to be unbearable if that's really what does it.

[scoobydoodean]

I was wondering if you, as a Dean fan have opinions about the different writers? Mostly because I see a lot of Dean fans really strongly dislike Dabb for some reason and I don’t really understand why. I’ve never seen a concrete explanation beyond “he can’t write Dean/doesn’t understand Dean/actively hates Dean” but with no examples as to what he does that’s so bad. And I see this in every shipping lane. I don’t have a strong opinion about him as a writer one way or the other.

I'm exploring this more as I rewatch the show (currently on season 6) so I'll speak mainly from that perspective on my most recent thoughts. I am not a big fan of Dabb or Loflin, but have tried to be fair about things so far when talking through each episode. I am a fan of "Alpha and Omega"—it's my favorite finale (it's also... a finale for a season Carver started as showrunner? So I don't know what the implications are there as far as storyboarding). Also points for having demon Dean stab a guy through in 10.02.

I'll focus on the negatives you asked about in this post, but in the links you'll find me moving the narrative this way and that toward much more charitable readings... I think. (I do have a tag #dabb disk horse which you can either peruse or blacklist at your leisure). What I can tell you is something almost always strikes me as a off about Dabb/Loflin episodes so far in this rewatch in terms of character work.

Dabb/Loflin's first ever episode was 4.06 "Yellow Fever". In the aftermath, Kripke felt the need to release a definitive interpretation of their episode to the public, stating, "Dean is not a dick... he's a hero." The whole episode toyed with, to an extent, the idea that all the victims of the MotW were bullies. You can take this other directions—for example, queer meta, or meta about Sam as the real bully. However, the story a lot of fandom latched onto was that "Dean is a jerk and deserves to be humiliated and punished for that" which obviously didn't make Dean fans watching live in season 4 happy—and this theme of Jerk!Dean continues into their next episode, "After School Special", where they once again parallel Dean with a bully literally nicknamed "Dirk the Jerk" by Sam, and throw what I think is transparent shade at Kripke's issued statement from before the Christmas break (post here)... or maybe they mean to throw shade at the Dean fans who got angry. In this episode, they also make illusions to Dean wanting to have sex with barely legal high school cheerleaders, which also did not ingratiate them to Deanfans at the time. I said on my last rewatch, "In After School Special, Dean seems more unlike himself than any episode ever in the history of Supernatural up to this point" (post explaining that here). I carry similar sentiments about portions of 5.06 "I Believe The Children Are Our Future". Yes—I am aware of performing Dean meta. I just... feel like they try a little too hard. It feels hamfisted—desperate. To the point it doesn't feel like Dean anymore sometimes. In 5.06, they also have Dean (guy who is generally very protective of kids) suggest to Jesse that he'd be good to have in a fight???? I can see how they got there, but again—it just feels... off. The last episode I rewatched that they authored, 6.04 "Weekend At Bobby's", also leaves a bad taste in my mouth—not in what it's trying to do with Bobby or what it's trying to do on a meta level—but once again, with dialogue from Dean that just makes me think "he would not fucking say that" (post here). I think looking at all of these, you can probably see deangirl ire toward Dabb has a long history. It's been around as long as he's been around, whether he deserves as much ire as he gets or not.

I haven't circled back yet on this rewatch, but Dabb and Loflin also penned season 7's "The Girl Next Door"... do I need to say anything specific? Maybe I'll just link my entire #amy tag. What narrative did they want you to get from that episode? Who the fuck knows. And that's often the problem:

When you watch various episodes I've mentioned, you can work around to a meta that tells you something different than you might at first think the page conveys—something hidden and maybe contradictory. The thing is... you could also... not do that? And that wouldn't be so bad, except that sometimes the two narratives you can most easily grasp completely contradict each other. "After School Special" can be an episode that points to Sam's envy of Dean and John deep down and foreshadows Sam becoming a bully, but on a meta level, it also just as easily says Sam becoming a bully is somehow Dean's fault, and Sam is some poor captive baby. Dean is a creep and a bully and a cheater but we should all coddle him because he saw his mom die when he was a child and he's sooo sad. "Yellow Fever" can be a queer meta story and might also foreshadow approaching Bully!Sam in 4.14, but it also very much does call Dean a jerk (should we take that seriously? should we not?) and implies Dean should be punished for the outcome of three decades of reality-bending torture. Even if it's a queer meta underneath... it's just as easily one about how closeted men should be humiliated for cowardice or how being closeted turns you into an asshole.

Jumping way ahead, I have to mention 15.10 "The Hero's Journey" just because. Yes, it is full of jokes and Garth goodness, but also tries to sell you the story that nothing about Sam and Dean is real, to a degree that feels like you are being flipped the bird for ever watching this show. And again—you can make meta that it's all a ruse! But is it? Or is Dabb actually just telling you to go fuck yourself? Like he totally wasn't when, after the SPN finale when fans were Not Happy™️, he tweeted a sign reading, "Don't feed the baboons"? Yet again—we play into the motif of the "hero" who isn't a hero at all but some pathetic loser who deserves to be publicly humiliated, bookended with Dabb's opening episode in his opening season. I'm not saying that's what it is on purpose—but I am saying you can make these arguments easily, and that leaves me consistently annoyed with Dabb for being fucking sloppy and leaving me to deal with some of the most insufferable meta imaginable that carries little support outside of episodes written by Dabb or the Dabb/Loflin writing team.... Yes—I am in fact saying that Dabb and Loflin's hamfisted episodes (regardless of their intentions) are largely responsible for some of the most insufferable, loathesome fandom metas about Sam and Dean's relationship around.

Look at 5.16 "Dark Side Of The Moon", and 7.08 "Time for A Wedding!" and 8.14 "Trial and Error", 11.17 "Red Meat", and 15.20 "Carry On". Along with 4.13, while they might or might not say something deeper or contradictory on a meta level, on a surface level, every single one of these episodes sows the narrative that Dean is needy and clingy and needs Sam more than Sam needs him—something I intensely disagree with for a multitude of reasons... but I'll just link this. Many of these episodes also follow a surface level narrative of "normal life obsessed Sam" (and here I'll link my entire #sam the hunter tag and #in which sam is not a helpless little waif with his hands cast over his eyes being carried along by the tides of the immutable sea). When I look at this episode list, I also don't find it at all difficult to believe that Dabb wanted Dean to die in the finale. There is nothing at all shocking about that. And yes—you can argue he's pointing to the opposite—that this fate should be subverted and that's what makes 15.20 the dark ending, but I think you can just as easily argue that yes it's a dark ending and yes Dabb has always dreamed of this ending. A "tragic" ending where Dean dies and Sam goes on to have a white picket fence... while also leaving you little hints along the way that maybe it's all a big ruse because how could he not? He never has to explain anything. Someone else will pick up the story and make it make sense. He's already fucked off to piss all over fans of Resident Evil.

That said, when I mention what I feel is off character work, I mainly mention Dabb/Loflin episodes from my recent rewatch, which suffer from the two of them being newer to the series (coming onto the writing team in season 4) and also leave questions about whether, perhaps, they had conflicting ideas about characterization. Was Dabb the one penning these lines? Was it Loflin? Was it both? Did they trade out who took the lead? I didn't really say anything negative about "Sam, Interrupted" or "Jump the Shark"... (though "Sam, Interrupted" also calls Dean "codependent") who wrote those? Is it possible that the messiness of the meta comes down to two writers at war? I have to imagine though, that they got along, or else they wouldn't have written together for four fucking years. If they didn't get along...? My mind always comes back to their first solo episodes, right after splitting up in season 8. Dabb's first solo episode is "Hunteri Heroici"—the only episode to lend any perspective to season 8 Sam's reasons for abandoning everyone—paralleling him checking out with Fred's catatonia, which Sam has to save Fred from. It is the only episode that lends Sam sympathy in the early part of the season. He follows it up with "Trial and Error"—where Sam promises to save Dean from suicidal thoughts. Loflin's first solo episode is what I would regard as the most scathing solo episode commentary on Sam in the entire series—"Citizen Fang". Then he writes again right after Dabb's "Trial and Error"—penning "Remember The Titans" where Sam tells Dean to get over the promise Sam so passionately made in Dabb's episode and face reality.

This is why we're exploring this rewatch.

DISCLAIMER: Now I just devolve into bitching because I'm writing at 3AM. Proceed at your own risk.

It seems like these days, everyone demands an explanation for disliking Dabb (something about some sort of destiel battle... I don't know what that flamewar is and I don't give a damn tbqh.) I guess I've just been wondering what's actually so great about him. Because it feels like people have overcorrected to basically acting like he's god's greatest gift to mankind. People point to how meta his episodes can be, but I think other writers easily best him on that front on multiple occasions (particularly enjoyed by me so far on this rewatch: 3.10 "Dream A Little Dream Of Me", 4.04 "Monster Movie", 4.12 "Criss Angel Is A Douchebag"), and without leaving their meaning so up in the air that you don't even know what the hell they were actually trying to tell you because there are two different completely incongruous narratives you could just as justifiably claim were the intended one. Some people may find that duality praise-worthy. I don't. I find it sloppy—and when I add in mediocre character work, I just land on the side of him being, at the very best, mid.

Add him in as showrunner, you have... at least two of my least favorite seasons (13 and 15). Add that he's a one-trick pony in terms of the Sam and Dean conflicts mentioned above that he continuously rehashes rather than come up with anything new or fresh, and the same conflicts between Dean and Cas being played out until they both die (shut UP I'm not talking about canon destiel as the alternative—I am literally just asking for more diverse conflicts). I can't say I understand what I''m supposed to find so impressive.

(Before anyone so much as breathes this near me, Berens also sucks and I am going to tear off your nose hairs if you start bringing him up as if disliking Dabb for some reason means wearing rose colored glasses about Berens. Berens can eat a whole cactus raw over "The Trap" alone.)