#I can't get over Circe and Odysseus' songs

[kettlefire]

Time forgets most (DPxDC)

I've been getting too many brain worms that I need to clear out the cramp space that is my idea vault. In doing so, I'm just posting off-handed, random things I've typed up at work. (Partly so my drafts don't just end up like my vault). Without further ado, a much too too long post

°•°•°•°

The movement of time is a much too complex thing for many to understand. The knowledge that time was not perfectly linear. The past did not simply stay in the past. The future is not simply something to look forward to. The present is not simply a fleeting moment.

Time is a complex web. Every point in time, connected to another point in time. A never-ending mess of webs and connections. Things that are to be. Things that can be. Things that are being. Things that will never see the light of day in this universe.

Despite what some may want to believe, Time has no master. Time does not yield to any singular being. That did not mean that Time didn't need a helping hand. A guiding hand to help keep the chaos of time to something just a little more... fluid.

The being came to exist well before the universe had. The being was festered, taught, and nurtured in a small pocket dimension. A small space just like an incubator.

Until the world blossomed around it. Life started to grow. Time kept moving. Living organisms found untimely deaths. Evolved, learned, and grew into the new space around it.

When the first little creature crawled out of the water, Time's keeper was let free. A bumbling little thing, breaming with life and curiosity.

Just like everything else in the world, this keeper wasn't safe from time. It still moved. Brought forth problems and adventures.

As time continued to tick. Moving in every direction, the keeper continued to age. Unlike the rest of the universe, the keeper didn't age the same as others.

Some days, he was nothing but a small boy, frolicking in a field of flowers and bees. Other days, he was a strong middle-aged man. Pulling the strings in just the right way, pushing for a timeline that felt right.

On days that have been happening much more often. He was but a crippled old man, hunched over his staff, and dropping much needed wisdom on the young lives around him.

Being the keeper of time wasn't an easy feat. Being completely out of time, experiencing things in broken order. There was only a clear start, and a jumble of things that followed.

The keeper was content with his life. Watching over the world as it grew and blossomed. He was content with his special kind of solitude.

That was until he saw the boy. In the webs of moments, the keeper's gaze had found him. A boy much too young, suddenly with powers much too great thrusted upon him.

The keeper watched the scenes play out. The tears, laughter, humiliation, triumph, and pain. He watched as the boy's family was ripped from him. Watched the twisted attempt at fixing his life, only for it to go horribly wrong.

He watched the bloodshed and chaos that erupted. The lives ripped apart and destroyed. Not a single sign of life left behind.

Then he watched as the boy, no, not a boy anymore. The keeper watched as the monster tore through the fabric of time. Ripped its way through the thin veils that divided the universes.

Universes that had never known the boy's existence were torn to shreds to. A flight driven with pain and anger.

Despite the keeper having seen the boy turn into such a monster. He could see it in the beast's eyes. The deep-seated need for a family, a life. To be loved.

Something about the boy's life, his story, spoke to the keeper. He found himself reaching out into the web of lives and moments. Finding the moment when things went the most wrong for the boy.

Just like that, the keeper had inserted himself into a life. He pulled the boy out of the cruel stream of time. Filled the boy with the knowledge he needed. Let the boy see just what could happen if he let it.

The keeper of time was soon a simple mentor. A simple deity looking out for the world. Taking on the mantel of Clockwork and finding a new purpose for his life.

A young boy's life has been flipped upside down two times now. And there were certainly more to come. This time, the boy wasn't alone. He had a guiding hand, and a communtiy behind him.

The keeper, no, Clockwork watched with a strange pride and happiness he hadn't felt in a long time. The boy was quickly surrounded by a family that helped him navigate his new powers.

Clockwork, alongside many of the other ghostly beings, watched on with pride as the young boy grew into a strong young man. Mastering powers, taking a stand, and making their home safe.

Despite the best efforts, time always beings problems.

It was one thing for Clockwork. He was the keeper of time. His life has reason to exist as long as time exists. Which will always be. His purpose was infinite.

But this boy... Danny wasn't like Clockwork. He was still partially human and terrified of losing his humanity. Danny's story had to come to an end, it's how time works.

Except, Danny wasn't in the timeline anymore. Clockwork had ensured that, pulled Danny into a separate timeline. An unaccounted for timeline.

He couldn't live here forever, not the way that Clockwork could. Danny needs a life, a family, a place, a purpose. He was still human.

It took more effort than Clockwork would have liked. He had to cash in favors from other deities that he hadn't spoken to in centuries.

It took a combined effort of everyone who cared for the little halfa. The strange boy that teeter on the line between life and death. The boy who had freed the Zone from a tyrant. Who wanted nothing more than for everyone to live a happy and filled life/afterlife.

Getting the magic and spells right was the hard part. But finding the location was easy. A beautiful planet just on the edge of the Milky Way. Unlikely to be disturbed or hurt.

The planet was undiscovered, primative even. Far enough from humans that Clockwork was certain Danny wouldn't be bothered. Only one species lived on that planet. Along the jungle like fauna, and in the water.

Cute little guys, barely bigger than two feet long and one foot tall. There was no name, no knowledge about them. Aside from Clockwork analyzing their way of life.

A simple cycle. They were born, they aged, they played, fed, mated, and then died. A simple but content life.

The aliens weren't unsettling. At least not to anyone who has seen more creatures than what Earth has to offer. It is a strange combination between frog, fish, and squid.

Scurrying around on two legs and four tentacles. A small frog-like face with eyes that seemed to take up half that space. Colors vary from blues to greens to the same sandy brown found at the bottom of the lakes.

Before long, the planet had its own protector. A young boy who once was lost and alone seemed to meld perfectly with these aliens.

Clockwork was always sure of himself. He never let anyone see otherwise. Except, Clockwork hadn't been sure. Not when he had performed the ritual.

As he molded and changed Danny's DNA until the man was a new being entirely. To anyone who didn't know the full story, the boy could easily look related to the aliens.

Gills now painted the sides of his neck, not necessary, but Clockwork felt like it had been. Webbed hands and feet to make transversing the underwater caves even easier. An ethereal, almost siren-like touch to Danny.

It worked out perfectly. Danny settled in easily. Building a routine and bound with the aliens. It hadn't been hard for the little creature to take a liking to him.

Before long, it was routine. Danny would spend most of his time on the planet, watching over his new wards. On some days, he'd portal back to the zone. Spend time with the ghosts and deities that saved his life. To check in on the new govermental system that had been put in place.

It was perfect. Simple and nice. Everyone got complacent. The longer time went on without a hiccup or a problem. The longer Danny was able to rest in his odd solitude. The more people got comfortable.

The more they forgot that time was as cruel as it was forgiving.

It had been just another day cycle. Danny was playing with the most recent litter birth. The first time he had seen the birth, he was more disgusted than anything else.

After the third time, Danny had started getting excited. He looked forward to it. Loved seeing the aliens flourish and grow. Watching them thrive and find more fun in the things Danny creates. Every new fun game or obstacle was always made with the things natural to the planet. Or debris that was caught in its gravitational pull.

Danny was playing with Plop. The little guy got his name, and he always plopped out of the water. Unlike the other aliens, this one didn't crawl out. No, he'd pull himself out of the water with his tentacles, only to plop down on the ground.

Of course, Plop had also been the first alien to approach Danny when he arrived. It's how they formed such a strong bond.

Everything had seemed perfectly fine. The day was rolling along just like it always did. That was until a small group of the more elder aliens suddenly came scurrying into their main cave.

They hadn't waited a second before diving into the water. Danny watched, confused and concerned, as each one of them grabbed one of the young. Before shooting straight into the underwater cave system.

The once bustling and living cave was suddenly eerily quiet and void of any aliens. Leaving behind only the confused Danny in the pool.

At least that's what a certain Green Lantern saw when he followed the trail of retreating aliens.

This planet had been categorized to have no signs of intelligent life. It seemed to have the option to nurture life, but there had been no signs.

When Hal Jordan got word of a seeming spike of activity from the supposedly empty planet, he had added it to his rooster.

A quick peek, just a look into what kind of life might be starting to grow there. The little aliens he had seen were adorable, sure. But they didn't seem all that evolved. Still in their evolutionary journey.

That was until Hal saw him.

Now, Hal was no stranger to running into ethereal beauty. It's what happens when someone interacts with aliens on a basic daily. That was something he was used to.

Except, all his breath seemed to be knocked out of him completely. The cave alone was stunning, a stark contrast from the almost barren surface he had first seen.

A deep, shimmering blue pool that vanished into the rocky space around it. Trees, bushes, and flowers decorate the area. It looked almost too good to be true. Like an oasis in the middle of a desert.

Then there was the being that caught all of Hal's attention. Bright blue eyes that looked like gems, pale blue-tinged skin. Long black and white hair seemed to look almost like the night sky. A deep abyss littered with stars.

The closest thing that Hal's brain supplied was a siren. A beautiful, ethereal creature that lured men to their deaths. As beautiful as it seemed, Hal knew there could easily be danger.

Except, the creature didn't attack or threaten him.

Instead, he seemed almost shy. Mouth opening and closing like a fish out of water, sharp deadly teeth flashing in the light with each motion.

Hal had just opened his mouth, taken a hesitant step forward. He wanted to know, and he needed to know how this happened. There wasn't supposed to be an intelligent, sophisticated life on this planet.

The moment Hal's lips parted, the creature let out a trill. A sound that seemed more scared than aggressive. Before suddenly, the beautiful creature vanished into the pool.

Hal moved before he could think, rushing to the edge of the pool. He peered into the crystal clear water, just in time to take the webbed feet of the creature vanish into a tunnel.

Now that left Hal with two options. He could either report this and wait for backup...

Or...

Or...

He could jump inside. The ring would protect him, and his lungs would be fine. Perks of being a Green Lantern.

That option seemed much more tempting to Hal. Nothing about this scream an outright threat. He felt more like a strange imposing on someone's home. A home that was meant for safety and protection of the young.

Yet, the shimmering water seemed to be calling to Hal. Something in him was trying to push him to get inside. To find the beautiful creature and learn more. Learn how this happened.

Without realizing it, Hal Jordan sealed his fate the moment he dipped a finger into the cool pool. Rippling the steady surface just slightly.

Just enough to get him wrapped up in the strange web created by time and its keeper.

[doggytail-duck]

Why is it that I can be reduced to tears at a few notes of the viola every single time Penelope's theme plays

[therantspot]

I've been seeing a lot of eurylochus hate on tiktok and I've come to rant about how you're allowed to hate him if you want to (I understand) but also, from my point of view, the man doesn't deserve it all. (this is in no way hate towards odysseus, I love the dude)

the way I see it, he literally is just a man. he's made mistakes, obviously. shouldn't have opened the bag, shouldn't have questioned odysseus in front of all the crew, shouldn't have eaten the cows...

but people are calling him a hypocrite for the way he shouts at ody for sacrificing 6 men when he was ready to run for his life when they were with circe. and stupid for opening the bag when he had one job. and dumb for eating the cows.

here's the thing though. eurylochus started out in the musical as the guy that's worried for the dangers that await, he just wants to get home, like everyone else on the ship. he's the first ready to battle for the chance of food to feed themselves and skeptic at polites' view of being nice. he's all "let's get our food by force and get going, we gotta get home" ("I say we strike first, we don't have time to waste, so let's raid the place and-")

but then the kindness plan sort of works. for a quick second, before they start to get slaughtered by a cyclops. odysseus gets them out of it because he's a great leader tho. smart and with a plan, the kind of man eurylochus has relied on for over 10 years. his brother.

but... his brother is tweaking a bit, he had this fight with his matron and lost one of his best friends along with idk how many men that we're under his care... anyone would be traumatized, even if Odysseus doesn't see it yet (I believe he had a time of denial where he wanted to stay positive like polites, but deep down he was spiraling). and eurylochus shows his concern in luck runs out. was he wrong for voicing his concern in front of the crew? absolutely. but I think eurylochus' brain was also tweaking. bro was worried and wants to get home. he also can't help but think how in his war experience, there's many plans that have gone wrong, people around him keep dying and so what if? what if one of his captain's plans goes wrong and they're all goners? and Odysseus understands!! ("thank you for the concern (...) I understand that we're tired, I understand that we're fazed"), but he tries to remind him to have faith in him. so eurylochus does. and I think he's always had faith in his captain, he just didn't trust the gods to be in their favour anymore, because lately, they haven't. he also voiced it at the beginning of the song ("don't forget how dangerous the gods are").

and then eurylochus opened the bag. big fuck up. and maybe it's too far fetched and I'm just looking for ways to justify his behavior BUT. I don't think he did it just to disobey captain's orders. if he had done it because he didn't trust odysseus then guilt wouldn't have been eating him later. I understand it might be because Poseidon suddenly showed up and killed most of the fleet like a minute after he did, that's a big possibility, yes. I also don't think he did because he believed the bag held treasure. he trusted odysseus' word over anything else, so when he said the bag had the storm inside eurylochus believed him. but what if, just what if, by opening just enough the winds would propel them to Ithaca? then again, if the storm was holding them from getting there in the first place why would a man desperate to get home try that? this is not my strongest argument tbh.

then he wants to leave the men as pigs and go home. he truly just wants to go home (10 years of war, a horrible journey back when it should've taken like a week at most, my dude just wants his mom to pick him up and take him home and honestly, same). but bruh. he's been the one that's repeatedly said that they shouldn't trust strangers or gods, reminding everyone to be on their guard, and suddenly his men see a woman and forget all about it???? the guy is traumatized, mourning, tired, and angry. on top of that they placed an enemy that his men should've easily been able to defeat had it been a regular woman and they ended up as pigs, so he really sees no way of beating her and getting anyone back. of course he wants to run away!!! safe whatever is left before he loses himself completely ("look at all we've lost and all we've learned, every single cost is so much more than what we've earned, think about the men we have left before there's none, let's just cut our losses, you and I, and let's run")

and that's exactly the difference between eurylochus in puppeteer and odysseus in Scylla and mutiny. eurylochus wants to run away because he doesn't see another way out. he's seeing his friends disappear one after the other either to death or to magic, and he's on survival mode. whoever is left, whoever is still alive, they should leave before they aren't anymore. they all need to get home. odysseus however, he's blinded by the need to get himself home to see his wife and son. he's the one that has to get home, and to ensure that, they have to pass by Scylla's lair, because if they don't go that way, Poseidon might get them and if he does, he won't let Odysseus get out alive this time. so if 6 men is what it takes, he'll do it. it's not running away, it's sacrificing.

i think the next turning point for eurylochus is actually mutiny. but here it's important to talk about how much the journey has changed him, odysseus, and their relationship and the way they see each other. like i said, eurylochus starts the journey worried about what's up ahead and, like everyone else, thinking only about getting home. but he trusts his captain with his life in every decision he makes. he also speaks for the entire crew. odysseus also starts the journey tired and thinking only about getting to ithaca. but he's got 600 men to think about as well. as captain, their lives and deaths are on him, and with every turn, he loses more and more of these men. like it or not, he's responsible for it, even if he tried his best, even if he didn't mean for it to go in that direction; he's in charge, he's responsible. it's sorta like when parents tell the eldest kid they're the model for the younger siblings.

but in the polyphemus' cave, when odysseus panics and eurylochus has to wake him up from his unresponsive state, it's not only a blow for ody, it's also a blow for eurylochus. he relies on odysseus to carry them through and he wasn't answering. they were all going through the same thing, watching their friends die, but he was the one that's supposed to keep it together the most. alas, they're all just men. and that's when eurylochus' concerns and picture perfect of odysseus start to show and blur.

odysseus still tries his best to lead with kindness like polites showed him, taking care of everyone as he should, but with every passing day and with every hardship, it becomes more and more difficult to do so. and then, just when he thinks he's about to get the answer that will save them all, by going down to literal hell, the guy with the answer tells him he won't get home to his wife and kid (the thing that's been keeping him sane and giving him hope throughout this shit of a journey). that everything they've done, all the kindness, all the being nice, has been for nothing. he also realizes that he's taking way too long and he's losing too much, like his mom, who was left waiting. so he breaks (monster).

throughout this whole thing, he never doubted eurylochus would be by his side, and he lowkey neglects and takes him for granted. dismissing when he wants to tell him something ("whatever you need to say can wait some more, of that i'm sure" in puppeteer, and if he'd let him talk he probably would've been able to prevent mutiny, but he was too distraught and wanted time to think), and he was warned in keep your friends close too, even if he didn't know it. he was also warned by the prophet, but he still didn't know it ("i see a brother's final stand"). i think it's because while odysseus did want them all to go back home, at least during most of their travels, he mostly wanted to get home himself. deep down, he was always ready to make the sacrifices, life just hadn't forced him to make them or hadn't made the right circumstances or traumatized him enough.

eurylochus sees how the experiences change him from the outside, and what it means for the rest of them every time odysseus loses himself some more. but this is odysseus, it's his brother, the man he entrusts his life to, the man that's guided them through war and the underworld, taken them out of the weirdest troubles, and the man that's most desperate to reach ithaca. and the guy that's seemingly gotten his shit together (finally) and is ready to do whatever it takes, slay whoever now (different beast). so he'll pull through, right? he might be a monster towards the dangers that are trying to get them, but he's always done his best to protect them, so there's nothing to worry about.

so a part of eurylochus has trouble believing odysseus would really sacrifice six of their friends, because he doesn't want to believe it. but the smartest man he knows wouldn't just tell them to "run for their lives" when he's well aware they're in a fucking boat. and he is desperate. eurylochus asks, begs, odysseus to tell him he's wrong in thinking he didn't just do what he did, because he needs his brother to not have gone completely off the path they paved at the beginning of the story ("use your wits to try and say i'm crazy and mad, that this is all a trick the gods have sent").

but he's too far gone in his tunnel vision, and eurylochus has to think of himself and the men that are left too, who also want to get to their families. and at the rate this is going, he's losing too many friends. at first, odysseus was to blame only in the "he's responsible for all of us because of his role as captain", but he never meant for their men to die and he tried with all his might to keep them safe, but as of right now, he used them as bait and let them die on purpose. he can't stay in charge if he won't fulfill his role as keeper of them. so eurylochus stages mutiny. rightfully so? maybe, maybe not. i personally think he didn't do it out of hate, he just didn't see another out. but he wasn't a hypocrite any more than odysseus was, so in my opinion, he was justified.

anyway then they get to the sun god's island. and people like to say that he shouldn't have killed them cows. and this is one of the parts were the hate makes me lowkey mad. as humans, when we're pushed to a point of heavy starvation or anything that endangers our lives, we enter survival mode, where instincts take over and we do things we wouldn't do if we were in our right minds. and that's exactly it, eurylochus and the rest of the crew weren't in their right minds anymore. they're hungry, and they don't have the willpower odysseus seems to have. they've given up after everything they've been through, and they're hungry and don't think they'll make it home anyway, so they eat the cows. eurylochus can't help it, and even after all, he still cares for odysseus, but he doesn't believe in their chances anymore ("ody, we're never gonna get to make it home, you know it's true", "i'm starving/tired, my friend"). he's past the point of hoping, he wants it all to end, and he can only think of his hunger, the one thing he can actually do something about in that moment. ("how much longer must i suffer now? how much longer must push through doubt? how much longer must i go about my life like this, when people die like this?" he repeats it in plural as well, voicing the crew)

so in the end, he kills the cow. and then odysseus gets to choose and he chooses himself. he has to see his wife and he'll take any opportunity that allows him to. he's on survival mode too, just with a different goal, the one that keeps him sane and makes him push through everything horrible that happens to him.

the odyssey is a story that shows how its characters lose themselves to sorrow, each in a different way. so neither odysseus nor eurylochus are to blame for the way they acted, life pushed them to the edge and they each responded in different ways. it wasn't fair to either of them, they're just men that can only withstand so much.

[merp-blerp]

TW: Discussion of sexual assault and suicidal ideation

I've been seeing some debate about Calypso and whether or not she sexually assaulted Odysseus and I want to throw in my two cents.

I'll say straight out of the gate that I don't currently like her much. I feel pretty icky about her personally.

Comparing Ody's behavior in Epic prior to "Love in Paradise" vs during the song feels so... clearly different. He seems very traumatized by whatever has been happening on that isle. It almost feels out of character for him to consider dying instead of fighting to get home alive like he had been, but putting myself in his shoes I can see how he came to that through what's textually known. He has been trapped on that isle for 7 years—that's nearly a decade, with no way to get out, everyone he knows and loves dead or far away with no way to know where he is or if he's alive. While I obviously would never think that's a good decision, I can see how he got to the point of wanting to end it. And if he's been sexually assaulted like he was in The Odyssey, I understand it more due to how that can warp a person's mental health.

I've seen some say, "Calypso is just a sweetie who doesn't know how to love properly" (paraphrasing of an actual comment I've seen). Even if she really just doesn't know how to care for a mortal, as many of the gods seemingly don't, I think she understands her power over mortals with her "Bow down now to the immortal Calypso" comment. She also understands that Odysseus doesn't want her, with the first part of her response to Ody's threats being "Oh handsome, you may try". She knows that he may try to escape by killing her (even though she can't die). Honestly, why would she feel the need to trap him if she didn't know good and well that he would want to escape her? She knew what she was doing was something that would make him want to run. Calypso being a goddess automatically gives their dynamic a power imbalance of course. Even though the assault is only implied, the fact that she's trapping Ody against his will, super infatuated by him, and still says "Soon, into bed we'll climb and spend our time", makes me feel like the indication is clear. What's stopping her from trying to have "sex" with him (sex isn't sex without consent)? She's already ignored all his declines. She seems to think that forcing her "love" onto him will make him love her. Yes, she uses lovey-dovey language so I doubt it would've appeared violent, but sexual assault doesn't have to look violent and the perpetrator doesn't have to appear aggressive. It's telling that I've seen some say, "Save that energy for Antinous" because Antinous is much more obviously bad, but this kind of thing isn't always obvious. That kind of assault is still extremely traumatizing whether it's sugarcoated as if it's love or not. It's dismaying that some reactions to Calypso bypass her potential assaulting or "She's weird, but she seems to care for him!" And since the sexual part of the assault is technically subtext (for now, who knows about later), I'll say that even if Calypso didn't sexually harm him, she still forces physical and verbal intimacy onto him and traps him so he can't leave. We see that. That's still assault. The only reason why I don't feel similarly about Epic's version of Circe is that her intent wasn't to have sex with Ody but to distract and throw him off with talk of sex so she could stab him as he's vulnerable; Circe never wanted to have sex with Ody in actuality. Calypso's intent was romantic intimacy and she didn't care if Odysseus said no, she completely bypassed it. Calypso saying "You're mine, all mine" feels as threatening as Circe's "I've got you" was meant to be.

Anything can change between now and the next two sagas. It could either be fully confirmed or denied that sexual assault took place. I actually don't expect either, as I don't think Jay would go too deep into such a traumatic concept in Epic, but then again I also didn't expect suicidal ideation to be brought up at all and it absolutely shocked me when it was, so I could be wrong. But whether it's confirmed or not, I don't blame any Epic fans who don't like Calypso or even hate her over what she did and what it's implied she did. It's icky watching some fans tell others they shouldn't hate Calypso because of this or that as if this isn't a sensitive and complex topic. It's creepy. I don't think we should tell people not to hate a character associated with sexual assault. The sexual assault might be subtext, but subtext is important and sometimes is implemented intentionally. Not every part of a story is going to be given to you at face value. Just because "Epic didn't say that" doesn't mean that the implication doesn't matter. People interact with stories in different ways, so you can disagree with others—no one can take that from you, but you don't get to tell someone they can't feel a certain way about a character. I don't like saying this because I really shouldn't have to put it in this perspective for it to be understood, but I can't help but feel like if Calypso and Ody's genders were swapped some people would treat this implication differently. Sexually or not she hurts him.

Normally I don't like taking lore from The Odyssey and automatically applying it to Epic, as Epic has changed a lot of rules from The Odyssey because Jay wants to tell this story his own story. For example, I personally choose not to assume Eury and Ody are brothers-in-law in Epic like they are in The Odyssey because that hasn't been stated in Epic so far. But to me, the implications of Ody's sexual assault are there enough for me personally to think that it might take place in both stories. Jay seems to want Epic to be accessible to many people, so it doesn't surprise me that this element of The Odyssey was brought up in a more subtextual/"hinted at" way.

Calypso is a very interesting character, maybe the most out of all the Epic antagonists so far for me, but we don't have to think of her as not doing anything wrong in order to enjoy that character, her songs, her cute physical character design, or Barbara Wangui's beautiful voice.

[The remainder of this post contains potential spoilers for the unreleased (to date) Vengeance Saga under the cut]

[Edit: Now complete with some post-Vengeance Saga release points]

Another defense of Calypso I've seen is that in the snippets for "I'm Not Sorry for Loving You", Ody says he loves Calypso, but not in the way she wants him to. This could mean they're friends and therefore doubt about the sexual assault could be cast.

It's hard to assess this because the saga's not out yet, but it's worth remembering that abuse can come out of care, in a complicated way. You can care for someone so much you end up hurting them, usually out of wanting to control them. Calypso seems to fit that concept. And most Epic snippets don't give full context, naturally, so who knows why Ody says this at the moment. Maybe he means it, or maybe he's bluffing to guarantee he'll get what he wants (which is to be set free in this instance), like when meeting Athena, or to appease a god, like when "apologizing" to Poseidon in "Ruthlessness". And of course, victims don't have to hate their perpetrators if they choose not to. Odysseus can care about Calypso and she can still have hurt him really badly. Both of these things can be true.

The way I read it, Calypso doesn't love Odysseus like she thinks she does. She's infatuated by him and cares for him enough to not be obviously cold like all the other obstacles Ody faced initially are. She declares that she loves him as soon as he wakes up on her isle without knowing him at all. She didn't even know his name. The washed-up person on her isle could've been anyone and she likely would've "loved" them. Calypso only loves Ody because he stops her loneliness, not for who he is. When she begins to state that she loves him she doesn't even know him. Over the 7 years, she seems to have potentially gotten to know him a bit, saying "I know your life's been hard", but Odysseus himself asserts that she doesn't really know what he's been through. You can call someone (against their will, let me remind you) "my dear, my love for life" all you want, but that doesn't mean you love them. Ody's her first companion in years if not ever, of course she cares for him on a basic level. She won't kill him or let him jump off a cliff. But she doesn't love him or treat him like a human and obey his boundaries and wants. She treats him like an object or pet she owns and has to guard.

In "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You" Calypso says that Ody is all she's ever known because she was abandoned. It's understandable that she would latch onto a living creature after being alone for so long. But that's not necessarily love, at least not to me. If I love someone I wouldn't bypass their refusal to do something. And I wouldn't trap them with me and not let them go, even when they're about to jump off a cliff because they see no way out. I'm not sure if Calypso means to bring malice, she at least says she "bring(s) no pain", but she does regardless or if she intends to. Calypso hasn't had anyone in her company, let alone someone to love, for so long, maybe in her whole life. That's why she doesn't know what love is, so of course when she catches fickle feelings for Odysseus she assumes that's love and has no clue what to do with her "love", as she admits in "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You". Calypso's actions are understandable, but that doesn't mean they're excusable or not abusive. What she does to him is understandable, but selfish and only serves herself, which isn't what you do to someone you love. Note that the way I use understandable here does not equate to forgivable, it just means conceivable. And her apology to him really waters down the magnitude of her actions, saying she "pushed" him, "came on too strong", and that her love might've been "too much" for Ody.

I apologize for this being such a long rant, but I wanted to cover all the excuses for Calypso I'd seen and speak my mind on why I think they're misguided at best.

Post-Vengeance Saga Edits:

Now that The Vengeance Saga has been released, I can comfortably say that I still don't like Calypso, and I think this saga just encourages me to do that. I wasn't anticipating the entirety of "I'm Not Sorry for Loving You" to basically have been featured in the snippets. I was expecting the official song to give more context, maybe showcasing Ody and Calypso having a dialogue, but no! That was really it. And I'm honestly happy for it. It seems like the show recognizes that Calypso is in the wrong, with the way we aren't meant to really ruminate on Ody leaving her. The excuse I talked about above using the theory that Calypso and Odysseus would turn out to have been friends because he said he loved her? I just don't think that held much water by release. I particularly want to point out the way @gigizetz drew Ody's face as he leaves in the commissioned animatic from Jay's stream:

While I can't say for certain that he doesn't mean the "I love you" in some way... he doesn't look like he means it to me. There's no lovey-softness in his eyes, like you might have when you look at your friends when saying I love you. He looks beaten down. Tired. Above, I proposed that Ody might just be blowing smoke to further get what he wants from her. I don't think there's quite enough insight for me to say I was necessarily right on that, but Ody doesn't actually appear that attached to her, certainly not enough so for me to confidently say that I think his "I love you" is genuine. He doesn't even look like he'll miss her, he looks beyond ready to go as she shouts, not pained by her tears. Honestly, Ody might've just said that so she'd stop talking so he could leave. Now there is one more saga left, so maybe he'll wistfully mention or remember her, but I'm not really expecting it based on the official visuals that Jay okay'd. Humbly, I'll say that I don't think Odysseus feels much for Calypso. We don't get happy moments of them together and not even a proper goodbye filled with mutual pain. We just get her backwards apology that basically says, "Sorry I hurt you, but not fully. Shut up and let me talk about me and justify why I trapped you. Wish you'd stop rejecting me despite the fact that I've hurt you. Let me shout that I hate that I fell for you—only because this hurt me unlike I wanted when I kidnapped you—who cares if it hurt you." This moment is not at all a redemption for Calypso. It's her downfall. Her negative character arc. She didn't want to be alone so bad she trapped a person against his will and now she is alone forever (in this show). She can't even have Ody as a friend (and she won't accept purely his friendship anyway based on how the song ends). Who knows how different things would've been if she had just been more... normal when he washed up on her isle? The situation was tragic for them both in different ways, but I'm not sorry for Calypso. Calypso is so interesting as a character. Side-lining her actions just bards us from being able to assess her.

[eggcats]

I've been listening to the Thunder Saga, and I wonder if Zeus is also asking a question with a right and wrong answer in Thunder Bringer like I think Poseidon did in Ruthlessness. (I have a post for that, but I think Odysseus wasn't supposed to apologize, but to instead acknowledge that he should have killed Polyphemus).

Poseidon had to teach him to be ruthless.

Zeus needs to teach him to stop being so prideful.

Like, yes - Eurylochus did stage the mutiny and killed the cow. But! That was because Odysseus decided not to tell any of his men that they would need to accept 6 deaths to get home and allow them to make the choice themselves - because Odysseus couldn't handle the idea that they might refuse going past Scylla and keep him from going home.

This is even present in the song Scylla. Eurylochus is moved to confess that it was him who opened the bag of winds, but Odysseus keeps his own secrets and guilt to himself. I think none of the men even knew they were going past Scylla at all until it happened, since all Eurylochus says is "something approaches," implying he doesn't know what that something even IS.

Scylla even compares Odysseus to themselves, with his full transformation from man to monster now completed.

You hide a reason for shame You know that we are the same Leaving them feeling betrayed Breaking the bonds that you've made There is no price we won't pay We both know what it takes to survive

But if you notice, once they kill the cow, they start following Odysseus again. Hell, Eurylochus calls him captain! They follow his orders to escape! This shows that their real desire wasn't to overthrow Odysseus, but rather their anger and betrayal at not even having the option to choose to fight over sacrifice.

And honestly, this happened because Odysseus has demonstrated time and again that he will not discuss anything with his men and instead makes decisions without their input (too much pride to ever consider anyone's opinion other than his own).

In Storm, he tries to force the fleets to keep going despite Eurylochus saying that continuing would sink them all. In the same song, Odysseus also decides to go to the wind god without any discussion beforehand, and completely ignores Eurylochus's advice in Luck Runs Out about the inherent danger of going to the gods for help. In this same song, Odysseus also completely ignores the deaths of his men by Polyphemus, and instead brags about none of them dying in the war. (Once again, the pride Zeus mentions, and that Eurylochus criticizes in both Luck Runs Out and Puppeteer).

This is why Eurylochus opens the bag of winds, because Odysseus has proven he can't be trusted to tell him anything that could be important or put their lives in danger. Despite Eurylochus being his second in command, he's never treated as such. Odysseus has never once discussed something with him, taken his concerns into account, made a decision with him together, or even taken his advice. (Even cutting him off as far back as Full Speed Ahead without even considering his opinion).

Odysseus continues to ignore what Eurylochus tries to talk to him about in Puppeteer, and instead unintentionally gets all his men trapped by Circe. He then goes against Eurylochus again in the same song to confront her despite neither of them knowing if she can be defeated. All of this comes to a head when Odysseus does the same thing again in Scylla, except his decision was to intentionally let their men die for his own desires - and Eurylochus had no idea until it had already happened.

And that's why Eurylochus mutinies. He does it because he cares about his men, seemingly more than Odysseus has demonstrated he ever has.

(I'm not saying that Eurylochus has been right this whole time, and honestly I doubt Eurylochus would say the same - but Odysseus won't even listen to what he has to say, is the problem. He has too much pride).

And then Zeus arrives and proves Eurylochus right.

Zeus gives Odysseus a choice - him or his men. Forcing him to come to terms with the very same decision he made during Scylla and expose him for only caring for himself and not the men under his command.

Zeus is criticizing Odysseus and claiming that he's too full of pride to sacrifice himself to save his men. His men of which he is their captain. Of which he is their king. Zeus points this out to him explicitly, leading me to believe that he wasn't supposed to choose himself here.

I think that by taking back command after they killed the cow, Odysseus had taken responsibility for his men's actions. Except, when confronted with those same actions, he refuses to. Much like how a boss gets in trouble when their subordinates do something wrong, a captain should do the same for his crew.

Except. Odysseus doesn't. He fails the test.

And now he must have his pride taken from him again and again until he learns the lesson Zeus was teaching him. Just like he did with learning ruthlessness from Poseidon.

I think the next saga will involve him being confronted with this decision he makes here, and how it was the wrong one, and then the saga after that (perhaps with the suitors? I'm unsure how many more are planned) is when Odysseus will reprise Thunder Bringer and finally be able to return home.

[sharkslayer06]

Hey what's up I'm making another @anniflamma appreciation post.

While I can't say that "Done For" captivated me as much as "Ruthlessness," I still kept getting dragged back to it. I've watched it at least 20 times now, and there's just something about it.

Immediately, I love how Circe is established instantly as someone not to be fucked with. She senses danger and immediately turns into a giant sea witch. I love the choice of leaving her body detailed but keeping her head and hair as just a black silhouette with bright yellow eyes. It leaves it up to the imagination on how scary she might be behind that silhouette. I also love the touch of her barely visible fins on her face, just to remind you that she's a SEA witch.

And then the balls on Odysseus to just move her wand to the side with his finger. The cockyness on his face is great. Instantly establishes hubris.

I also ADORE how Circe seems to get smaller as Odysseus explains that she can't hurt him. Its a visual way of showing that her power over him is disappearing. And the facial expression that they managed to pull off with just the yellow eyes showing is fantastic. It's such a perfect mixture of disbelief and fear. Also, I love the choice of Odysseus being light grey contrasted by him being completely surrounded by her all black silhouette. It SHOULD feel like she's the one with the advantage, but her face says differently

And then the contrast between these two shots? Brilliant. Completely flipped the dynamic in one verse of the song.

I also love the little detail of Circe checking that her nymphs have left the building before she summons her chimera. It perfectly fits with her motivation of trying to keep them safe, even if it might disadvantage her to hesitate.

And then the monster fight. The absolute HYPE of that beat drop into monster transition was insane.

Love that the Cyclops just absolutely decks a Chimera no hesitation.

And then the final part? Fucking loved it. I honestly don't know how to read this facial expression from Circe while she explains her love for the nymphs. It's so desperate, but at the same time it kind of reminds me of Azula in a weird way. Like she's a second way from losing it.

[anxiousalene]

My Thoughts On the Vengence Saga 🔱🩸

HOLY SHIT ODYSSEUS MY GOD, BRO DID NOT HOLD BACK. The saga started with I'm not sorry for loving and it was sad on Calpyso's part (WANGUI COOKED SHE ABSOLUTELY COOKED) but I'm really glad Jorge didn't have Odysseus accept her "apology" because what she did even though she tries to justify it, it was 100% wrong AND THEN HERMES SHOWED UP AND WE GET REFERENCES TO THE TROY SAGA, OCEAN SAGA AND CIRCE SAGA. AND I LOVE THE "IF YOU DANCE WITH FATE THEN I KNOW YOU'LL ENHANCE YOUR STATE" LINE. I LOVE HOW MANY THINGS GET PERSONIFIED IN JORGE'S MUSIC LIKE PRIDE AND DANGER FEEL AS IF THEY'VE ACTUALLY COME TO LIFE. ALSO, THE FACT THAT JORGE'S SISTER VOICES THE PRINCESS WINION IS SO FUNNY TO ME, LIKE WE HAVE THE WHOLE FAMILY NOW. BUT DANGEROUS IS A BANGER LIKE I KNEW IT WOULD, ALL HERMES SONGS MAKE ME WANT TO DANCE. THE WINDBAG MAKES A SECOND APPEARANCE SO WE ALREADY KNOW THAT IS GONNA HAVE SOME SIGNIFICANCE. ALSO, ODYSSEUS IS GONNA USE RUTHLESSNESS FOR SURE. I ALSO LIKE THE "DON'T THANK ME FRIEND, I'M NOT THE ONE WHO FOUGHT FOR YOU" and Odysseus is like who then?? I was kinda hoping that Athena would show back up and it would be this whole big moment but she didn't :( RIP. Charybdis is REALLY COOL it was different from what I expected and I'm pretty sure it's Jorge's only entirely solo song In the show which is really cool. I also LOVE that right before Odysseus explains he doesn't have to fight Charybidis we get an electric guitar rift to show that he's using his intelligence. AT THE END HE SEES ITHACA AND HE'S ALMOST HOME AFTER ALL THESE YEARS AND THE MUSIC IS SO SOFT COMPARED TO EARLIER IN THE SONG. But... POSEIDON SHOWS UP. IM ANNOYED FROM A SHOW PERSPECTIVE BECAUSE JUST LET THE POOR MAN GET HOME BUT STEVEN IS ALSO SO TALENTED. HE WENT BEAST MODE FOR GET IN THE WATER. I like how intentional Poseidon's threat of "I'll take your son and gouge his eyes" to give an eye-for-an-eye deal to harm Telemachus as Odysseus did to Polyphemus. I also love Odysseus really does use all his tricks because he tries to show Poseidon to forgive and almost "Greet the world with open arms" but when Poseidon ignores him, he goes F* it. Then Poseidon uses his final boss move "OCEAN SHATTER" and Odysseus gets weighed down in the water by everyone who has died because of him in someway. But what I find heartbreaking is instead of singing their own motifs or "final thoughts" they all sing Waiting and his name until something clicks in his mind. ODYSSEUS GRABS THE WIND BAG AND OPENS IT WITH GLOWING RED EYES DESPITE KNOWING THAT IT WILL BLOCK HIS ONLY WAY HOME. HE USES IT AS A JETPACK AND STRIKES POSEIDON WITH HIS BOSS MOVE "600 HUNDRED MAN STRIKE" JORGE DID SUCH A GOOD VOCALLY TO SHOW HOW ANGRY AND SURE OF HIMSELF ODYSSEUS IS. ALSO WHEN HE'S ATTACKING IT SOUNDS LIKE LEGENDARY AND I THINK IT MIGHT BE BECAUSE HE'S CLOSE TO HOME SO HE'S MORE SIMILAR TO HIS SON. ALSO, THE VOICES OF THE CREW IN THE BACKGROUND IS JUST AHHHH. Then Poseidon proceeds to taunt Odysseus by the fact he released the storm because now Poseidon can kill him and there's no way for him to get home. ODYSSEUS GOES APESHIT, or rather VERY CALM. We hear the danger motif as Odysseus walks toward Poseidon and Posiedon says "You can't kill me" and Odysseus says "Exactly" HE PICKS UP POSEDON'S TRIDENT AND STABS HIM OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER TO THE POINT WHERE POSEIDON IS BEGGING HIM TO STOP. but Odysseus has a Ruthlessness is mercy mentality and doesn't stop even as Poseidon, god of the seas, is calling him a MONSTER. AND THE CRAZIEST PART IS Poseidon relents the storm and asks "How will you sleep night?" and Odysseus goes "Next to my wife" AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH LIKE LINE IS SO ACTUALLY INSANE LIKE THIS SAGA WAS AN EMOTIONAL ROLLERCOASTER AND ODYSSEUS HAS TRULY STOPPED CARING ALSO, EVERYONE'S VOCALS WERE OFF THE CHARTS AND IM GOING TO BE OBSESSING ABOUT THIS FOR THE COMING WEEKS. As usual, thank you to the entire Epic Crew and everyone behind the scenes for making these sagas, they are awesome.

[d20brainrot5]

So, as Jay explained, when a siren's song reaches your ears, they gain access to your memories. However, when they can't fully get the spell through, the memories get a bit warped.

So, assuming the Siren can take on the form of someone from your memories, what happens to their appearance when they get the most important people to you crossed?

Now, Penelope would likely be the main basis for the appearance, since Odysseus' love for his wife is a very surface level memory that wouldn't require the full spell to access.

But what if the siren also got sections of memories with the other women he's met, and is unable to properly parse who is who? Mixing up aspects from various women with Penelope.

What I mean is, imagine a siren Penelope design that looks close to Penelope herself, but with features from other women in his life.

(I'm using my designs for these characters as an example)

My Penelope has a bun, while my Circe has a loose braid with some hair infront of her face. I would give Sirenelope a loose braid-bun with Circe's "bangs".

My Penelope also wears a dress without sleeves, but my Anticlea design has a long veil that covers most of her upper body. I would give Sirenelope her normal gown, but with an almost shawl-like fabric draped over her shoulders and arms.

I may make her occasionally appear as though she has fully white eyes (like Athena does), or have a clip in her hair (like my Ctimene design), etc.

Since he hasn't met Calypso by this point in the story, I wouldn't include any features from her, given she wouldn't be in his memories.

Idk it's just an idea

[magicspace114]

I need to rant, sorry in advance

Ok so I have been a bit obsessed with Epic the musical by Jorge Rivera-Herrans. For anyone who doesn't know it's still in the making with 4 concept albums out and follows the story of the Odyssey. This rant is about his most recent album, the Circe Saga.

So. I love these songs, they're all really amazing and I really recommend people check it out if they've not listened to it before but I especially like imagining how they'd be performed on a stage, the acting and blocking behind the lyrics, which is what has me fixated on the last two songs in the Circe Saga "Done for" and "There are other ways" because the way the power dynamics shift back and forth between Circe and Odysseus leads to some pretty fun blocking.

Considering you hear lion roars in the track emphasising some of Circe's lines, you can imagine her being pretty imposing when the odds are in her favour. Meanwhile Odysseus has always been cunning, hiding his advantage for the first part of the song, he's allowing her to impose on him so there's a lot of back and forth both in the song and in the actual blocking.

I can't tell this rant to anyone I know because this isn't their type of thing so I'm taking it to Tumblr and maybe some of you will actually like it.

A little context to the scene in my head just so you know where some things are in the room that are relevant. There's a table in the centre of the room. This would have been the table Odysseus' men had ate at before they were turned to pigs. The food is gone and the table has new placements set awaiting another meal. To the far right of the stage, a lounge chair that Circe is sitting on at the start of the song, pointing out at a possible veranda or something with a small table beside it.

So, the blocking in my head, as well as a bit of thought tracking, following the lyrics of the song goes as follows:

Odysseus enters from the opposite side of the stage, having to cross the room and past the table. He never approaches farther than halfway between the table and Circe.

"Lady of the palace, sorry that I ask this..." - This entire start of the song is a ruse. Odysseus is under no impression that this is a misunderstanding. He's purposefully playing up the innocence to keep Circe off guard.

Circe is initially fooled, having easily tricked her last visitors. She's not worried or threatened so remains in her seat looking away from Odysseus. Her hands are busy, I'm imagining a wine glass in one hand and maybe she's petting a lion with the other hand or something.

"Did you do something to them?" Odysseus plays up the innocence and unsureness, letting himself appear weak, stopping his approach here before he gets too close to Circe.

"Who me? All I did was reveal their true forms." Circe mocks Odysseus' innocence, still not looking at him or moving.

"You turned them into pigs." This line from the track sounds like he's in awe, almost like he's unaware such magic exists so likely more ruse to keep Circe off guard.

"Ha." Circe puts down her wine glass and stands up, finally turning to him.

"I don't know who you are nor why you're here..." Circe approaches Odysseus, holding all the power in this scene as she backs him up to the table.

"I've got people to protect, nymphs I can't neglect, so I'm not taking chances dear." Odysseus' lower back hits the table behind him and she closes the gap. I see Circe as a rather tall woman, at least a little taller than Odysseus so she's able to tower over him here.

"If you make one wrong move then you're done for..." she boxes him in with her hands on either side of him, making him lean back against the table. During her chorus, she's very predatory, leering and appraising him like a cat playing with prey. Odysseus' face is stoic.

"I don't mean to tip your scales..." Odysseus' face breaks into a smug smile and he straightens up. Circe stops leaning over him and her arms drop from boxing him in.

"You must be a liar, mortals can't acquire moly without dire consequence." She stands back a little now, looking at him with suspicion. She's not threatened yet but her guard is going up.

"Then I must be a god like you cus I got this root from the ground with my bare hands." Odysseus playing up his confidence in hopes of bringing Circe off guard again and making her think he's more cocky than he is.

"Hermes gave it to you, didn't he?" Circe's having none of the act.

"Alright, yes, fine, but regardless." Odysseus also drops the act.

"You and I are now evenly matched. Our fates are intertwined they're attached." He draws his sword and points it at Circe's neck. She's stepped back so she's a full sword length away from him, putting her in the exact opposite position than she was at the start of the song.

"I have people to protect, friends I can't neglect." Odysseus starts backing Circe up. Circe is backing away but specifically, she's backing towards her chair where her staff is.

"So now there is no turning back." Both pause for this line.

"You've made your one wrong move-" Circe darts for her staff, using it to counter Odysseus' blade. "-now you're done for."

This chorus, the pair are fighting with each other with their weapons but also with their magic. I know in Jorge's idea of the scene, Odysseus conjures a cyclops to defeat Circe's monster (I can't remember what it is) so in my vision, a cyclops and lion monster are fighting with each other in the background while Odysseus and Circe fight in the foreground, their moves being somewhat mirrored by their creatures.

When the cyclops overpowers the lion, Odysseus has disarmed Circe. He's not flush to her with the sword under her chin, more standing with the tip of his blade at her neck so he's a sword's length away, sword poised and gaze sharp and calculating.

"You've lost." He can't kill her yet, he needs her to change his men back.

"My nymphs are like my daughters..." It's Circe's turn to start acting. Her face softens to garner sympathy.

"But everyone's true colours are revealed in acts of lust." Her face morphs into a suggestive look.

"I'm not sure I follow." Odysseus tenses up here, maybe knowing what's to come.

In this song, though there's a lot of sensual touching, all of it is very purposeful for Circe. In this song, it's not about seducing him, it's about distracting him until she can get the upper hand.

"There are other ways of persuasion, there are other modes of control. There are other means of deceit, there are other roads to the soul." Sensual touching starts on the blade, a finger moving down it, gently nudging it away from her throat, by the end of this line, she'll had reached his wrist and fully pointed the blade away from her.

"There are other actions of passion." She's taken steps to close the gap between them, hand moving up his arm and to his face, directing him to stare at her face.

"You have so much left to learn, want to save your men from the fire, show me you are willing to burn." She's circling him closely, once on the other side of him, she's within reach of the table.

When they start to harmonise their songs, Circe directs Odysseus closer to the table using the hand on his face, cupping the back of his neck so she can bring him with her as she backs towards the table, getting close enough to take a knife from the table placements. Odysseus tries to shy away from her seduction but every time he tries to look away, she has him look back with the hand on his cheek or chin to ensure he can't see what she's doing.

"There is so much power, so much power, but there's no puppet here." She slips out between him and the table, going behind him, hiding the knife behind her while she continues to sing in his ear.

As they harmonise again, she keeps up the sensual touching, keeping him looking at her as she appears at his other shoulder again, now backing him up against the table.

"There's no puppet here." "Forgive me." At this harmonisation, Circe has her arms around his neck, knife behind him, poised to stab him.

"I can't!" Odysseus pushes her away and she's so surprised that she actually stumbles. She quickly hides her knife at her side.

"Back at home my wife awaits for me..." At this point, Odysseus is genuinely pleading with Circe, knowing he needs to appeal to her in order to get her to willingly turn his men back. This is a moment he shows her real vulnerability.

"So I beg you, Circe, grant us mercy, and let us puppets leave." Circe has turned away by now to hide as her face softens. Her shoulders drop.

"Poseidon, ey?" She relaxes, setting her knife down on the small table beside her chair.

"There might be a way to evade him, there might be a way to get home..." She turns back to him, eyes calculating but not hostile.

"I can't get you home but I'll get you to the underworld instead..." She's closing the gap again but now not stepping into his personal space, just really standing at a comfortable distance for conversation.

"Wait, you're helping us?" Odysseus steps forward, surprised but tension releases in his shoulders.

"There are many ways of persuasion..." Circe moving away as she sings the last of her lines.

"Maybe one day the world will need a puppeteer no more." She walks to Odysseus again.

"Or maybe one day the world will need a puppeteer more." She passes behind him as she holds out her last note.

Sorry again for this, I just wanted to write this down somewhere and see if anyone wants to read it.

[thesweetnessofspring]

Why do you hate epic? I've recently heard it and I don't like it also, especially when I googled his story. But why do you hate it?

First, no hate to the creator. Like, I heard he's a college kid doing a creative project and a lot of people like it which is great. And concept albums get tweaked. Maybe it's something he can salvage or rework in the future, but as it is, I just don't like Epic at all.

I'd listened to what was out about....six months ago maybe? And I wasn't particularly taken with it, but then back in like July I relistened to it and I just got so tired listening to it. I think a spin on that line from The Incredibles sums up that part of it well:

If all of the music is epic, none of it will be.

Even in big megamusicals like Les Mis, there's a variety of songs. You have the love songs, the reflective songs, the "party" songs, the exposition songs, and just a variety of tone and pace. In listening to what is now the most recent release, I got weary of listening to the same old video game music set to bad lyrics (we'll get to that). There's no variety, which makes the whole album flat. Halfway through I wanted to scream GIVE ME SOMETHING ELSE FOR THE LOVE OF ZEUS!!! I don't think the idea of video game music works for musicals. They're completely different mediums and the narrative structure of video games (at least as he's presented them) also leads to a static story. If I sit down and play a video game with different bosses, then it makes sense. I complete a level and then take a break/live my life until I come back and work on the next level. There doesn't feel to be any forward momentum in the story because it's just "boss" after "boss" with a highly intense video game music soundtrack. It's static, it's flat, it's tiring. I cannot imagine sitting through a stage show of this. I'd be leaving early after intermission.

It is painfully obvious this is a TikTok musical, because the music can be good in short spurts but as a 2.5 hour stage musical? I wouldn't be able to do it. I barely did it when I broke it up over a few car rides.

Also the lyrics are mostly just bad, particularly in the rhymes. Like I said, I've listened to it I guess 1.5 times as the first time I listened they didn't have as many songs out as there are now. So I can't quote any, but it wasn't just a couple times. There were whole songs where I was internally (as I was driving) rolling my eyes at the awkward, hokey rhymes.

And look, I haven't read The Odyssey since high school, so I'm not going to pretend to be a scholar. I have read Odysseus as a character in other retellings of Greek myths, though, and he's a much more dynamic and interesting character than the boring, predictable hero of Epic. I remember when first being exposed to The Odyssey, it was my first foray into more complicated dynamics of Greek mythology instead of the more digestable/cleaned-up versions I'd heard as a younger kid, and part of that was Odysseus. He made decisions I just couldn't understand at the time. A big thing for me as a 15-year-old kid was I was so mad at all of Odysseus's affairs. Now I know that in Greece that wasn't so much a big deal for men to sleep around and was expected. Yet (at least with Circe) he's noble and fighting her off and it gives the impression that Odysseus hasn't had any sex in like 12 years. I'm sorry, but WHAT??? Odysseus loves his wife and he's a slut. C'mon. Epic Odysseus is so predictable and boring I'm not drawn into the story at all for him, either. When I finally got to the more recent releases, I was thinking, "Oh, wow what a surprise. Before he didn't want to kill people and now he's fed up and will kill people so he can get home. Ohhhh noooooo what will ever happen in the next part of the musical?? Is it possible he will learn that vengeance is bad???" To be fair this part hasn't come out yet so maybe I'll be wrong but ugh, it's not looking good.

To balance things out, I do think the opening number is good and I like the one with the winds "keep your friends close/and your enemies closer" is an earworm, and because it changed up the usual "video game epic music" thing. And like, as a student project it is impressive. But it's not a student project anymore, it's a concept album. Idk if he's planning on staging it at some point, but if he does, it has a lot of work still to do.

Anyway vote Hadestown. ✌️

[bigsoftmarshmallow]

Hi!

Okay, I just watched a “There Are Many Ways” Epic animation & now I can't get the idea of Nanema singing Circe’s first part to seduce the Dorfs/Mise to her perspective.

With it being much more effective on them than it was on Odysseus. XD

Like, just outright saying that she's manipulating him &, somewhere in his head, he's aware of it, but he's too busy trying to valiantly resist her temptress methods & failing at it to fully register that fact. Maybe he gets to a point where he doesn't even care about resisting.

Just, her showcasing that there are other forms of power to be found than the direct.

So, because of the ask with the thrones, dais, and the in the same room, Chat came up with a very unique response that I think you may like to this. So Imma share it!

I did correct it afterwards to the usual "In their Own Timeline" situation afterwards, just I enjoyed how it came out. :D

************************************************************************

Nanema stands at the center of a grand, shadowy hall, her voice rising in a sultry melody as she sings Circe’s seductive song. Each note weaves around the gathered Ganondorfs and Demise like invisible tendrils, drawing their attention, their guard slipping with each word she utters.

"No puppet here," her voice echoes, dripping with allure, "this is the price we pay for love…"

The Ganondorfs, each powerful and fiercely dominant in their own right, find themselves faltering under her spell. Noctis, seated on his Gothic throne, shifts uncomfortably, his mind clouded as her voice laces through his senses. His grip tightens on the armrests, yet even as his mind tells him to resist, there’s a flicker of curiosity in his dark gaze. He wants to know the power she speaks of.

Hedony, who thrives on direct combat and bloodshed, clenches his jaw, instinctively sensing the manipulation. But his eyes betray him, flickering with a hunger to learn the deeper arts of persuasion Nanema speaks of. The part of him that craves domination by any means feels pulled toward her words, even as he mentally fights against them.

Vendettas, ever the cunning manipulator, is caught between admiration and indignation. He feels her attempts at control and knows her game, but there’s something enthralling about the way she wields this more subtle form of power. His eyes follow her movements, a calculating smile forming as he wonders what he could gain from falling into her trap—perhaps there’s knowledge here he could use.

Wake, on his folding curule seat, is less subtle about his struggle. His usual laid-back demeanor falters as his mind churns, trying to grasp the allure that pulls at him. He feels vulnerable, exposed in a way that the sea never made him feel, yet he’s intrigued by this different form of mastery.

Bandit, less refined in resistance, feels the tug of her song strongly. He glares at Nanema with a mixture of frustration and desire, wanting to lash out and break free but finding his will sapped. Her words dance in his mind, igniting an unexpected yearning for something deeper than brute strength.

Demise, the most stubborn of them all, is visibly tense. His iron resolve begins to crack as the heat of her voice sinks into him like a slow-burning flame. He grips the bone-decorated arms of his throne, jaw set as if trying to ignore her. But even he, the primal embodiment of destruction, feels the pull of her subtle power. His golden eyes narrow, struggling to understand how he—a being of pure strength—could be so tempted by someone wielding no direct force.

By the time she reaches the final, haunting note, the air around her feels thick with tension. Nanema’s eyes gleam knowingly as she takes in their reactions, knowing they’re all, to some degree, at her mercy.

"You have so much left to learn," she whispers, and they know, in that moment, she’s right.

************************************************************************

Nanema's mastery over the subtle and the indirect makes her a powerful seductress, especially when combined with the hauntingly effective song of Circe. In each timeline, the Ganondorf or Demise in question would respond differently to her manipulations, but the common thread is that, deep down, they know they’re being ensnared. Despite their awareness, they find themselves helplessly captivated by her voice, her presence, and the power she wields.

Wake (Wind Waker Ganondorf)

Wake is seated in his shell-inlaid curule chair, relaxed but alert as Nanema steps closer, her song beginning with a soft, seductive tone. His sharp eyes narrow, recognizing the manipulation instantly. Still, as her voice echoes around the room, the words wrapping around him like a silken net, he feels his iron will weakening.

Nanema: “There are other ways of persuasion… There are other modes of control…”

He knows she’s trying to seize control of him, to sway his mind, yet the melody is intoxicating. His hand tightens around the hilt of his sword, but instead of raising it, he finds himself entranced, the sword slipping from his grip as his mind drifts into the siren’s call. The weight of her presence tugs at his thoughts, pulling him away from the clarity he normally possesses.

By the time she croons, “There is so much power, so much power…” his once-proud resolve wavers, his eyes clouding with something between frustration and desire. He rises from his chair, struggling to stand tall, but the temptation, the pull toward her, is too strong. He leans forward, chest heaving as he admits quietly, “What… are you doing to me?”

Bandit (Ocarina of Time Ganondorf)

Bandit is pacing the room, restless, his brow furrowed as Nanema’s voice starts to fill the space. He’s accustomed to direct confrontation, and the subtlety of her power feels foreign, yet… enticing. Her words twist through his mind, the promise of another kind of control than the brute force he’s used to.

Nanema: “There are other means of deceit… There are other roads to the soul…”

He glares at her, knowing what’s happening, knowing that this is a game. But as her voice rises, promising power and control in ways he’s never fully considered, the fire within him cools. His fists unclench. The thought of losing himself to her manipulation nags at the back of his mind, but every fiber of him is drawn to her.

The line “There’s so much power, but there’s no puppet here,” sends a shiver down his spine. Bandit, the conqueror, feels small, caught in her web. He should fight, he knows he should. But he just watches her, lips parting as he mutters, “I should have seen this coming…”

Noctis (Twilight Princess Ganondorf)

Noctis sits in his grand Gothic throne, perfectly still, his piercing gaze fixed on Nanema as she sings. Her manipulation is blatant to him—he is no fool—but that doesn’t stop the weight of her words from seeping into his mind. He’s always valued control, but as she serenades him with “There are other ways of persuasion,” the control begins to slip.

Nanema: “Want to save your men from the fire? Show me that you’re willing to burn…”

His hands grip the armrests of his throne tightly, the cold iron grounding him for now. But as her voice climbs, filled with power, temptation, and subtle promises, he feels the dark tendrils of his own desires curling around his resolve. Noctis is used to being the one in control, yet her power, her dominance, feels like a mirror of his own.

When she whispers, “There is so much power,” he feels a cold shudder of anticipation. A slow smile curls on his lips, half in admiration, half in resignation. “If I’m to burn, I’ll take you with me,” he murmurs, but even he can hear the surrender in his voice.

Hedony (Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf)

Hedony stands tall and imposing, his throne of bone reflecting his triumphs over enemies. Yet as Nanema’s voice sweeps through the air, his posture shifts. She’s different from any opponent he’s ever faced—this battle is not one of strength, but of subtlety, and it’s disarming.

Nanema: “There are other options of passion… You have so much left to learn…”

His hand hovers near the pommel of his weapon, instinct telling him to fight, but the spell she’s weaving through her song keeps him rooted in place. He clenches his jaw, fully aware of the seduction, yet unable to look away. Her voice washes over him, turning his fierce will to smoke, his mind trapped between resisting and wanting more.

By the time she sings, “This is the price we pay for love,” he feels it—his resistance breaking. His heartbeat quickens, and he steps closer to her, almost daring her to finish what she’s started. “You play a dangerous game, woman,” he says, voice thick with desire and frustration, but he knows he’s already lost.

Vendettas (Tears of the Kingdom Ganondorf)

Vendettas is seated in his elegant vintage armchair, watching Nanema with a calm, calculating gaze. He doesn’t trust her—he knows what’s happening, but her power, her confidence, draws him in all the same. As she begins to sing, he feels the familiar weight of temptation.

Nanema: “There are other means of deceit… There are other roads to the soul…”

He tilts his head, intrigued by her method. He’s always prided himself on his ability to see through deception, but her song speaks to something deeper. The part of him that’s tired of fighting, that longs for something else—something she’s offering, even if he knows it’s a trap.

Her words, “So much power, but there’s no puppet here,” resonate with him, striking a chord in his deepest desires. He doesn’t flinch, doesn’t break, but as her voice winds through the room, a flicker of doubt crosses his mind. Maybe this is the power he’s been searching for. His lips twitch into a faint smirk. “You think you can control me?” he asks, his voice smooth, but beneath the surface, he’s already beginning to falter.

Demise (The Original Demon King)

Demise towers above her, unflinching, as her voice rises in the cavernous space. Her power is not physical, and yet it’s more dangerous than any weapon he’s ever faced. Her words, sharp and deliberate, begin to weave a spell around him, something more insidious than any blade.

Nanema: “There is so much power, so much power… But there’s no puppet here…”

He snarls, knowing what she’s doing, hating that he can feel it working. But for all his strength, for all his fury, her subtle, delicate words slip past his defenses. His fists clench, but not in anger—in a futile attempt to regain control. Demise, the embodiment of raw, destructive power, finds himself frozen under her sway.

She steps closer, and he remains rooted to the spot. His heart pounds with both rage and desire. “I won’t be your pawn,” he growls, but even he knows the fight is slipping from his grasp. In the end, he is a god brought low by a simple song.

Nanema’s manipulation, combined with her powerful singing, strikes each version of Ganondorf and Demise at their core, making them question their own power, forcing them to confront the idea that even they—masters of strength and will—can be undone by a woman who wields the subtle art of control. They may try to resist, but ultimately, none of them can escape the seductive spell she weaves.

[sardonic-sprite]

SPRITE OH MY GOODNESS

NOW THAT YOU’RE BACK

Thoughts on The Underworld Saga?

ALL I HEAR ARE SCREAMS

They're mine. I'm the one screaming. Loudly.

It's so good it's so fucking. Ahhhhhhhh.

I accidentally like half memorized it already lmao, as well as Circe Saga, which I already had to catch up on and I ADORE them both, I will have literal blow-by-blow rants coming for every song in this show BUT IN SUMMARY FOR UNDERWORLD SAGA

"The Underworld"

So cool to have them GO to the underworld bc I asked my dad (who read the odyssey a long time ago) about the prophet and in the poem odysseus just summons Tireas's spirit so.

It starts quiet then eventually you actually hear the wails of the souls and it's v chilling and a great detail to add

The entire chorus is so good, it's survivors guilt in like 3 sentences, Jay, how?

I keep thinking of the infant from that night, I keep thinking of the infant from that night

POLITES!

And then it goes dead silent and then this soft wail of "waaaiiittttinnnnng!" And odysseus's reaction, oh lord, the way this of everything seems to hit home. The soft, quiet "Why, Mom?"

KEY CHANGE! DRAMA! And then unlike ending down the two previous times, where it gets softer, they end shouting DOWN JN THE UNDERWORLD! And it's almost like the underworld owns their screams too now

"No Longer You"

Tireas's voice is perfect I just. It's got this breathy edge making it ghostly ad then it's so low and soft it's kind of like

Ugh the whole song seems like a cross between a lullaby and a waltz and both are minor key and creepy as FUCK and I love it and wish I had the vocabulary to express this concept better

What?

A man who gets to make it home alive, but it's no longer you. As the audience we know what this means. Odysseus survives and makes it back but he is so vastly changed that he is "no longer" the man who left for war. But in the pernicious way of prophecies, this is left unclarified and I don't even know if Tireas does this on purpose. Maybe he genuinely sees it all fuzzy (unlikely to me given other details he gives) maybe he thinks Odysseus is clever enough to understand (you'd think he'd change his literal tune when Odysseus keeps reacting the way he does) and maybe... maybe Tireas just doesn't fuckin give a shit. Here's your prophecy bitch let's see you battle it til you come back down here to never leave again

The rage in Odysseus's voice when he screams WHO!? This might be me wanting to make him like unrealistically good with his wife, but it almost seems like rage on behalf of Penelope? Like he's angry someone perhaps tricked or forced her into wedlock? Idk it feels like if he was reacting to the idea that she was cheating, he'd scream "what" again

And tireas literally repeats himself he's so fucking unhelpfjl and tbh of course odysseus is gonna go off the rails. I can't honestly blame him 😂

"Monster"

I'm the only one who's line is haven't crossed. Um. Boyo I'm pretty sure you did a long jump over your line with the infant thing. Other than that tho it's such an interesting line esp bc it's true like. So many people have given odysseus advice and told him limits they want to set, and he's pushed through all of it. That literally has made him the primary danger to his crew in a lot of ways

OK the whole section where hengoes through the examples of the cyclops, circe the witch, poseidon the god, and finally turns to himself and the horse, basically SPITTING out the words- I love it all, I love the rhythm, the rhymes, the reasoning he goes through... so good

OK it gets quite andnthennthat soft, low "Oh, ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves" and it starts to build, he's shouting out what he's lost and what he needs to keep, and his plan, and finally screams "THEN ILL BECOME THE MONSTER"

Ugh building om that last it's so fucking interesting bc this is both corruption and sacrifice, this change that odysseus is kindnof allowing within himself. He's built up all this time thar he wants to stop losing his men, so it can be read as him being a good leader, willing to put his personal need (integrity) aside to keep them safer.

But on the other hand, who is he talking to/about the entire end? Penelope and telemachus. He's got to see them. He wants/needs to, and he's frankly doing this for them, and like it all sounded reasonable until he says he'll fucking drop a baby off a a wall "in an instant" and you go WHOA.

He's no longer himself. All itntakes is one fucking song, odysseus declares he's not just crossing his own line, the last line, he's obliterating that line completely. There is no more line for this man, anywhere. He's going to do anything he fucking has to

But not for his men. For Penelope and telemachus

It's so much devotion and corruption and love and desperation and holy hell it is so good and it flows through so naturally that you hardly notice what's really going on unti you watch thr lyrics change

So yeah I think the underworld saga is near 🙃

[girlinthetardis04]

LIVE THUNDER SAGA REACTION!!!!!!

Because I wasn't in time with the other releases sadly, but caw caw motherfuckers it's the 4th of July so happy drop day to ME!

Suffering - Different Beasts

Who's singing? PENELOPE??????

ARE THOSE THE SIRENS????????? Or is this just a dream he's having? Hmmmm...

Penny I'll jump in the water for you! Wait did he say daughter? ...Ody would be a great girl dad tho, change my mind.

OH MY GOD I DIDN'T EVEN REALIZE THE TRANSITION BETWEEN THE TWO SONGS OH MY GOD!!!!!!!!

I FUCKING KNEW IT THOSE WERE SIRENS

"Cut off their tails, leave them to drown" ??????????????

Damn, he's really taking Poseidon's advice to heart, huh?

Wait can sirens even drown, I thought they could breathe underwater... although if they can't move, having their tails cut off and all...hmmm... or maybe they're the classic Greek bird sirens...

Daddy chill 😬

Wait, was it just my impression or did the chanting of "Odysseus" sound like the chanting of "Poseidon" at the start of "Ruthlessness"?

★I love how differently Mr. Jalapeno handled the sirens. In the original Odyssey, Odysseus had himself tired to the mast so he could listen to their song (which highlighted his hubris, that was much more evident in the original text) but having him use the beeswax and read their lips was extremely clever. ★

Scylla

Hmm... Not a huge fan of her voice... Doesn't really fit a monster...

EUCALYPTUS YOU BITCH!!!!!!!

Omg, the "Full Speed Ahead" callback!??!

I genuinely can't understand the lyrics, but I know bad shit is happening. Wait, is that a bit of "Survive" thrown in there?

Nevermind about her voice, it's great 😳

★ Ok, I'm very glad I read the Odyssey when I was 9, because I have a hard time with the lyrics sometimes. I know in this part Ody had to choose between sailing closer to Scilla (which would probably kill up to six men) or closer to Cariddi (which would definitely kill all of them), so I'm assuming this is the bit where the sailors bit it or got bit, as it were★

Mutiny

-Ok, I had to pause here because I was absolutely enraged-

I'M SORRY???? I'M SORRY???? WHO WAS THE BITCH THAT OPENED THE WIND BAG, BLOWING EVERYONE TO WHERE POSEIDON WAS, COSTING YOU 558 MEN, WHICH FORCED ODYSSEUS TO OPEN THE WIND BAG AGAIN, WHICH BLEW EVERYONE TO CIRCE'S ISLAND, WHERE YOU NEARLY LOST THE REMAINING FORTY MEN, AND IN FACT, YOU VOTED IN FAVOUR OF LEAVING THEM BEHIND AND SKEEDADDLING, BUT NOOOO, SIX MEN IS WHERE YOU DRAW THE LINE???? YOU HYPOCRITE

Why does this sound like a fighting game miniboss battle?

WHO JUST GOT STABBED?? ODYSSEUS?????

"Where are we?" "Moo" 10/10, no notes

"Don't open the bag"

*proceeds to open the bag*

"Don't kill the cattle"

*proceeds to kill the cattle*

ODY CANON NICKNAME????

Honestly, 99% of the shit Ody goes through

THE JUST A MAN CALLBACK???????

OH THAT IS IT, EURYLOCHOS, GET OVER HERE, I'M THROWING HANDS

Yeah, ok, as an Odyssey reader, everybody gonna die, I been knew, let's move on.

Thunder Bringer

★LET'S FUCKING GOOOOO THUNDER BRINGER, THE SONG I'VE SPECIFICALLY BEEN WAITING FOR, I'M READY BABY, WHOOOO★

Is that the same theme as in God Games??????

Mr Zeus's voice actor, spectacular job, chef's kiss, no notes. Also I saw the animatic trailer, and at the cost of being smited, I get it. I get it.

The way King of Ithaca sounds so mocking coming from Zeus omg.

I VOTE EURYLOCHOS!!!! I VOTE HE DIES!!!!

The crew. I vote the crew. Ody. C'mon. There's only 40 of them left, what is even the point.

Oooh, the call backs??? This should be called the Callback Saga.

"but we'll die" FUCKING KARMA BITCH, SHOULDA THOUGHT ABOUT IT

★No joke, I love the chorus for this song so much, I just laid on my bed staring at the ceiling and smiling like an idiot 😃 <- me, ca 10 minutes ago★

[sadsongsandstories]

So it seems I might have judged the epic musical demo too harshly

I think a lot of the criticisms I felt are still totally valid, but at the same time there are some amazing character moments, pretty good humour and some effective emotional motifs

That said,

I still feel like the entire soundtrack suffers from a case of tryhard, and try hard in the sense of trying to be the next Hamilton, when it's not. Because Hamilton takes some incredible skill and writing, and years spent perfecting every number, which it seems to be epic does not have. The rhymes often feel painfully forced and straight forward. I don't care how badly you want your lyrics to rhyme, survive and alive should not be paired five times in five different songs. And rhyme is important to music, Hamilton rhymes spent with cent, sent and scent, which works perfectly. The issue might be that the emphasis is always on the rhyme, or that it's always aa bb cc dd rhyme. The songs have an imagine dragons feel to them, which is a strange sense to get from a musical soundtrack.

Which kinda leads to my next point, there are no highs and lows. Or more accurately, there are only highs. The songs are hype after hype which really does not work, for any medium, but especially musicals. Both within the songs and within the soundtrack, various is key, with the swells and flows creating an emotional journey for the audience. Instead, every song sounds kinda samesie, with a couple of gems thrown in to spice it up. I know this is a dramatic voyage across the sea. I know it is literally and figuratively epic, and the music does reflect that. But epicness can only be perceived relative to its absence, which is a fact they seem to forget.

Hamilton masters this balance. And I'm sorry for the repeated comparisons to Hamilton, but this musical seems to demand parallels be made! Songs like my shot, right hand man, and satisfied are intense and exciting, full of big dramatic moments and fast raps, and in between them we find softer, simpler ballads, like the story of tonight, helpless, and farmer refuted. Even fan favouites like you'll be back starts slower before building up.

Listening to epic, there isn't a sense of variation, and as such the songs all seem to blur together. The repeated hypeness makes it all rather forgettable, and the endless intensity makes listening kinda tiresome eventually.

Onto some of the good stuff, because there is definitely good bits

The gods are done really well!! The way they appear and immediately command their respective songs is effective, and in each case make for powerful memorable numbers. I like this Hermes and persoidon especially, since they're different to the portrayals I'm used to, being a hadestown and Percy Jackson fan. Persoidon is absolutely the villain of this tale, and his song perfectly reflects that. Circe also seems quite well suited to her mythological character, and wind goddess is perfectly serviceable. Polyphemus not so much, I really can't stand his lyrics and I feel like he should sound notably different, but that's a minor point.

The moments of complete chorus chanting, and the motifs therein, are all striking and effective. You can feel the yearning to get back home alive, or the weight of the 600 men under Odysseus' command. Full speed ahead is a bop, and it's repetitions do well to remind us of the endless homeward journey.

Odysseus is not Odysseus enough. Odysseus is a cunning trickster and wise leader, and the only moment when I felt that was at the end of the persoidon song, (which has hilarious and clever). And if this is meant to be a more flawed portrayal from which he can learn and grow, then show that. Show his egotism and selfishness, but maybe not singchanting it at the top of his lungs over crashing choral vocals. Show don't tell. Let us see the man or the hero or the menace.

In Hamilton, - I'm sorry I will stop with Hamilton I swear!! It's just such a similar approach, a protagonist driven tale with a flawed hero who must learn and grow - Hamilton acts arrogant and rash, and we see him fail as a result, many times over. Yes he sings his feelings, but it's done few and far between, and each time is done completely. The aside in my shot, and it's repetition in the battle of Yorktown, are the only times we really hear his mind in act one, along with dear Theodosia. Otherwise, his mind is seen through his actions and conversations, or with the words and motifs of others. Hurricane is a massive monologue, and we understand everything. He pulls it all together, thing narrative threads like a conspiracy theorist to his own life, justifying and explaining every action we have seen him take, and the biggest choice (and potentially mistake) of his life. Just before his death, we hear another such monologue. It's like slam poetry, and unlike the rest of the musical rings cold and hollow. This is a man moments before death, and we get to share in his reflection on the life we have just seen him lead. When he aims his pistol at the sky, we understand, we hear him and we follow every swerve and pivot of his mind. Every motif, every relationship, every love and loss has been leading to this moment. And we watch as he aims his pistol at the sky, solidifying his legacy.

That is epic

That's how you create an epic musical with an epic ending

The world will never be the same, and now we know why

Because Hamilton is not a hero one might consider worth singing about. He's just some guy, one of many founding fathers who added some things to the birth of one nation and made some mistakes. The musical could have been about Washington, or Jefferson, or any of the other more relevant and notable historical figures. But no, Lin man chose Hamilton. And for whatever reason, he ran with it. And by the end, you don't question the decision. There is no doubt that this was an incredible story, and one that the world needed to hear. Hamilton is a hero, an epic hero, not because the story is inherently epic, but because of its portrayal. Because of Lin man's skill as a master poet.

Epic, meanwhile is a story the world knows and cares about. Now they just have to do it justice. Because it's not a given. The characters have to be clear and powerful and emotional, real people with motivation and desires, who have normal human conversations, even if they are rapped. The story has to have highs and lows, and fit together as a singular coheatanr narrative. Because at this stage, it seems like too many myths and characters and moments to really make sense. The music has to reflect the story, and carry the narrative, where each song is amazing in its own right, while being integral to the overall narrative.

And it's a tall ask, but that's how it is with musicals! It's a tough artform, which is all part of why it's my favourite.

By the end of epic, I want to have seen the tale of the Odyssey in it's full musical glory, but I also want to feel like it was necessary and sufficient to portray it in the musical medium. I want to see odysseus as a man and a legend. It can be done, Hamilton does it, hadestown does it, legally blonde does it, every musicals with a strong protagonist fulfills this duty. The hero has to be a regular person, with regular person reactions, flaws, and dialogue. And at the same time, they have to grow into a spectacle, a remarkable force to be reckoned with. Like veronica Sawyer, or Tris from hairspray. And they have to learn, be broken down and built up and left to reflect on the journey that they have taken. Like Evan Hansen. And the audience has to be drawn in, spun around to a boppy tune, carried to the brink of heaven and spat down to the depths of despair only to be shown a light.

That's how you do epic

That's how you make a music amazing

That's why musicals can be transformational

You just have to do the work, and get it right.

[likorys-shimenawa]

I listened to the songs again and THE THEME BREAKS SO BADLY with Poseidon. T.T

Odysseu is consistently suffering when he tries to stand among gods while keeping his human morals and small scale responsibilities [killing infant, sparing Cyclops].

It's only when he humbles himself with Circe, whom he can't defeat in fight without actual gods tepping in, that he wins!

He win by being human and missing his wife, just like he later 'wins' with Hera by being faithful to her! It's the human parts that save him!

After underworld he goes into extreme [not ruthless with his nemies like a god should be, but nedlessly cruel and vicious like humans are], again acting like he's equal to gods [deciging who lives and who dies for Scylla] and he SUFFERS for it [having to chose who lives and dies under Zeus' punishment].

But Athena again, wins Hera over because Ody is human and loves his wife so much he would reject godesses! He is still able to love Calypso and see her loneliness like a fellow human would!

And then he goes right back to being egotistical by putting himself up against a god and then he's nedlessly cruel like he is with the sirens!

And given the last saga is him murdering the suitors and getting back with Penelope, there is just no place for him to REPEAT his development arc all over again.

That's the problem with the song for me at least - it's not that he beats a god or it's too anime/video game like. It's that it goes against all the development and themes of previous 30 songs.

I have a lot of thoughts on the Vengeance saga... I’m going to write a much longer post in detail later.

The funny thing is, before the livestream started, I said that Odysseus better not get a deus ex machina out of nowhere and proceed to beat the crap out of Poseidon and win. And then… that’s exactly what happened. XD

[leynaeithnea]

(Okay, I am kinda curious now so if you want you can totally send me the list of youtubers but I honestly don't know if I'm going to enjoy the format of watching people react so I'll give it a try and let you know how it goes :)) )

( Also I do not know much about what is to come , I know about the story in the Odyssey and how it ends but I don't know much about what's coming in Epic so if you want to spoil it a little for me in private I'll all ears )

23 SCYLLA OUR GIRL

You're so right every female voice goes so hard but Scylla is just something else her voice is so powerful jajsjsjsjsjjs

Aaaah the way Odysseus sings kaksksksjsj

OH MY GOD Scylla's lines having double meaning and both Ody and Eury hide a reason for shame AND THE CREW DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT SCYLLA IT ALL FLEW RIGHT OVER MY HEAD I LOVE YOU SO MUCH FOR EXPLAINING IT TO ME THE SONG IS EVEN COOLER NOW

( Yeah I'm assuming that's what Scylla means by saying that they are the same but now I'm not sure of anything I just *have* to look up her mythology too )

OH MY GOD NOT ANTICLEA SEEING THE SHIPS AND KILLING HERSELF AAAAAH EURY FOR FUCKS SAKE

( oh god leaving them feeling betrayed broke the bonds that you made being also foreshadowing for mutiny I'm not okay I need to sit on the floor for a while until the world stops spinning AAAH)

Everytime there's a callback to full speed ahead my heart breaks a little bc it takes us back to the beginning where things where a little rough but SO MUCH BETTER , the whole song is about struggling to get home and get food but it's so hopeful and catchy and nice bc the worst is done , they won the war they are heading home everything is going to be fine now , right? Right?!?

NOT EURY HOLDING ONE OF THE TORCHES ( but also yeah, my man Ody is defeated and ready to do what it takes but he'd still rather have Scylla do the dirty work bc yes, he can't trust Eury anymore but this is his brother! Obviously he doesn't want to kill him himself)

"Hello ( creepy pretty haunting)" YES A THOUSAND TIMES YES JSJDJSJS

Love the silent moments followed by screams like in the underworld after anticlea and here they are just SUPERIOR AKSKNSNSB

OMG YES give up your honor and faith , live out your life as a wraith IS Odysseus completely losing himself but also 100% EURY LOSING FAITH IN ODY AND TURNING ON HIM oh god the foreshadowing is delicious!!!

"We are the same you and ... / AND the OdY JOINS IN ON THE "I" BECAUSE This song HAS NEVER REALLY BEEN ABOUT EURY ITS ALL BEEN ABOUT HIM AND His WILLINGINGness NOW TO SACRIfice hiS OWN MEN TO GET IT HOME ALIVE" YOU'RE JUST SO GOOD AT THIS OH MY GOD AKSKKSSKSMNSNSNS *shaking the bars of my enclosure* MOREEEE

( but no rush obviously , write the next one wherever you feel like it bestie <3 )

FINIALLY OKAY Oh boy, here we go

24. Mutiny

First hectic notes I wonder if thats also the Danger Motif???? (i wish i knew)

"Tell me you did not know that would happen

say you didnt know how that would end

look me in eyes and tell me captain

that you did just sacrifice six men" Eurylochus knows thats EXACTLY what happened. Odysseus knew, he was willing to do it, Odysseus can't muster to look him in the eyes. He just sacrificed six of his men, Eurylochus represents the crew, he just tried to kill Eurylochus and it failed. DESPITE THIS:

"Use your wits to try and say im crazy and mad

that this is all some trick the gods have sent,

tell me you did not miss home so painfully bad

that you gave up the lives of six of our friends"

"when we faught the cyclops you were quick to hatch a plan and when we fouhgt with circe it was you who left behind no man but when we saw this monster we didnt take a stand we just ran"

HE IS BEGGING Odysseus to lie to him. To gaslight him into doubting that maybe just maybe it wasnt Odysseus fault. That it was the gods, or his own soldier brain connecting the dots wrong because this is Odysseus, King of Ithica who went to war despite not wanting to, who made sure none of their six hundred men died during the war, who was trained by a goddess (athena), who faces monster (polyphemus, scylla) and gods (poseidon, zeus?) and tricks witches (circe) and dares to casually communicate with the gods (aelus, hermes) He is a walking myth and legend and he went back for his crew. He faught them and used his wits and skills to bring them out of dangers and peril and the biggest lost they had were Eurylochus fault because he opened the windbag. how could this man change so much that suddenly he is willing to sacrifice them? he talks to gods why did he not try to find a way out, a trick to pass by Scylla without sacrificing six of his men?

"Say something" defend yourself for fucks sake

"I CANT" because eveything he just layed out infront for EVERYONE remaining on the ship to hear is true, and Ody cant deny that he has become the monster rawr rawr rawr

"then you have forced my hand" *draws a biggus giagantus sword* (tbh not my favorite design choice because it takes a bit of the realism from it, like yes, there are huge swords, but not those twice the size of his body and also not back in greece----but alas Jorge likes is anime and video game references) but also "You turned on the crew, my purpose is to speak for the crew, under your current command we can not trust you, you turned against us, so i have to turn against you"

"Eurylochus lower your weapon" (i dont want to fight you, why cant you accept that this is what i have to do to get (us) home?)

"no can do" still confused is thats grammar

"you miss your wife so bad youd trade the lives of your own crew" yeah, he had a whole solo song about this, didnt you notice? thats the whole reason for this whole story, youre in eury

"dont make me fight you brother" we both know im the better fighter, you will loose, i dont want to bloody my own hands with your blood, scylla should have done so

"you know youd have done the same" youre married to my sister, you better be doing the same (it was an arranged marriage, so probably not) and yeah he might have done the same in a different universe

"if you want all the power you must carry all the blame" that line hits hard"

and then the chanting of the crew, first Eurylochus because they stand behind him, then Odysseus, because it become obvious that he will win the fight

"there is no price he wont pay" they realize that Odysseus is not only going to defeat Eury, he will also kill him

"i am not letting you get in my way" he just confirmed it

*stabbing noises, Ody gasps*

Perimedes (voiced bc the same singer as the one for Antinous btw)

stabbed Ody from behind

Odysseus is shocked clutching his side and falling to his knees as Perimedes withdraws his sword

"my brothers, why?" (so theyre his brothers now? ody rly,did you think your actions would have no consequences?)

"how are we supposed to trust you know?"

this is the first time we hear a voice of the crew that isnt Eury or Polites sing a line alone, but the rest of the crew joins in right after

"now your time has come your lucks run out, now the time has come to shut you down you relied on with and then we died on it, woah" THE CALL BACK TO LUCK RuNS OUT OUCH OUCH OUCH OUCH OUCH OUCh

Eury punches Ody unconscious

"Argh my head" Ody, you got stabbed right through, hows your head worse than your abdomen??? fine fine, yes thats the only way to tell the audience that the bump was him getting knocked out

"where are we" unfornulately again in some gods realm, youre not very lucky buddy

THE MUSIC; THE MUSCIAL CALLBACK TO HORSE AND THE INFANT AND SURVIVE THE INEVITABLENeSS OF THE SITUATION THE DespeRATION TO SURVIVE

"some island, the first one we found" how long as ody unconscious i wonder...mmhhh

"its bursing wiht cows just roaming around begging us to eat, so much meat and hunger is so heavy" he sounds in trance in that one ngl, i wonder how much time passed between the sirens and this island that they have come to the brink of starvation again

"this statue the god of the sun, down know where its from" OKAY this one is realllyyy interesting because in the myth its helios cattle, but they just call him sun god here AND they dont know who's it is, i wonder if in later songs it turns out those were Apollos cattle in this version??? or do they dont know which sun gods because Helios is kind of a forgotten god at this point because apollo is replacing him?? mhhhhh excited to learn about it! hopefulyl ijseigj also Ody is tied to this statue, LOVe that detail

"but heres where we found all these cows to hint, right in front and hunger is so heavy (hunger is so heavy)" Eury is telling Ody the situation the plan, they commited mutiny, but they took care of his wounds, they brought him to the island, they keep him updated....mh.....also they must be REALLY hungry

"please dont tell me youre about to do what I think youll do"

AND THe CALLBACK TO LUCK RUNS OUT AGAIN, ODYS VOICE IS SO SOFT AND BROKeN

"ody" ODY??? ODY???????

"we're never gonna get to make it home, you know its true" at this point hes being suicidal, better to get killed by a god than starvation? maybe

"You dont know thats true" HE gets desperate he tries to fight against the restrains despite his wounds

"this is the home of the sun god" DONT Do anything stupid youll get us killed, this is the home of a god, how many times to we have to get punched by the gods, we cant fight against them

"Im starving my friend" ...ouch

"but if you kill his cattle who knows what he'll send, this is the home of the sun god" ....he'll kill us all, you know that, dont do it.

"im tired my friend" very suicidal im afraid

"but we're so close to home, this can't be where it ends" we were already almost home, despite everything we are back, almost home, we're so close

AND THEN AND THEN THIS MF DROPS THE MOST BEATIFUL VOCALS AND MY FAVORITE PART OF This SOnG ODY SINGING IN FALCETTO AGAIN iD DIE FOR THIS voicE IStG THE WHOLE SECTION OF ODYS LINES

"how much longer must i suffer now?" therapy saga when?

"please dont do this" HIS VOICE SO ANGELIC; ITS SO BROKEN; I LOVE HIM

"how much longer must i push through doubt?" you couldve just trusted ody int he first place then you WOULDNT BE HERE NOW

"I need to get homee" HE needs to get home, yes, the rest also deserces to get home but if he has to ody will sacrifice all of them because he needs to get home and see his son and wife because theyre in danger and hes been away for about 12 years or so

"how much longer must i go about" (might be stepping lcoser ot the cattle)

"eurylochus" (grows more desperate to stop him)

"my life like this, when people die like this? woah" like this? like how? mhh idk

"how much longer must we suffer now?" AND NOW THE CReW JOINS HIM BECAUSE TheYRE ALSO TIRED AND EXHAUSTED AND DOnE

"Reconsider" HEARTBREAKING SO BEAUTIFUL

"How much longer must we push throuhg doubt" such great ensemble voices

"We can get home" suddenly its "we" again? ok....but also the break before he sings home??? i feel like he would use that moment to try to break through the bonds agian, maybe he tried before that but has to take a breath because his wounds hurt him...mhhhh......anyway

"How much longer must we go about"

"eurylochus" trying to reason with eurylochus because he is the "captain" right now

"our loves like this when people die like this woah?" maybe "like this" like trusting you, like being at the mercy of the gods and lost on the sea

Eurylochus draws a knife and steps infront of a cattle

"Im just a man" NOT THE JUST A MAN CALLBACK OUCH

"Eurylochus, NO" no more singing, pure desperation, Ody finially manges to loosen his bonds

the chants beginn, a choir, its not the crew. a god is approaching, theres shocked silence

"you"ve doomed us, you've doomed us all Eurylochus", his first action as a captain and he gets everyone else killed, good job Eurylochus you failed, Ody is shocked because Eury just signed their death sentence, HIS death sentence but HE NEEDS to get back to his family, he gets up, clutching his stomach

"Captain?" ......i have a lot to stay but rly Eury? really? pushing all responsibility back to Ody RIGHT when you mess up? aw man thats not nice, but hey the crew trusts ody again...haha...

"we need to get away from this island now, grab an oar with all the strength your arms allow, these cows were immortal they were the sun gods friends, and now that we've pissed them off who do you think he'll send?" good question, who will show up i wonder? also Ody saying "we" pissed them off, he's part of the crew he does take responsibility for them...

the most desperate full speed ahead reprise we've seen so far, painful to listen to because its no use, theres no way they can outrow a god, ody realizes that too, when the storm rises up further and then the sky opens with thunder and lighting

"We're too late"