#I always think about that one post about queerbaiting but for straight couples and the reblog saying it’s just x files lmao

[curly-cottage-girl]

I've never seen X files, is it good?

If you like a bit of spooky, a bit of silly, plenty of 90’s nostalgia, and a male-female partnership based on mutual respect and trust despite differences, then heck yeah it’s good 👍 also this was back when people actually made good shows that sometimes had filler episodes/monster of the week episodes (complimentary) because they weren’t trying to cram plot as tightly as possible into one season before they got canceled by Netflix

[firebluewood157]

Oh, no yeah, they Queerbaited

You know what’s really interesting? I love Mew Suppasit and Gulf. I really do whether they were ever together or separate I didn’t really care. As an American you are definitely aware that the actors stop acting right after they hear cut and there’s nothing more to it. Him coming out and saying that Gulf and him were doing it all for fan service and that they were never a thing was also a power move and I am in no way hurt by it or feel some type of way. In fact I’m excited to see him happy with someone he loves and puts the light back in his eyes. It’s always heartwarming to see a actor grow as a person and evolve into someone you always knew they could be. This goes for both Mew and Gulf.....this being said.

They did Queerbait but BL industry style. After Mew posted “Try searching up Queerbait”, I was like bet I’ve always heard of it but I’ve never really looked it up specifically.

*Queerbaiting is a marketing technique for fiction and entertainment in which creators hint at, but then do not depict, same-sex romance or other LGBTQ+ representation.[6] The purpose is to attract ("bait") a LGBTQ+ or straight ally audience with the suggestion or possibility of relationships or characters that appeal to them.[7] -Wiki*

What I’m about to say goes for all bl couples that does fan service. What the entertainment companies and actors are unintentionally doing is creating a narrative separate from the show the actors starred in.

MewGulf wasn’t seen as Tharntype, Maxtul wasn’t seen as KornKnock, Offgun isn’t seen as all of the characters played...hence why the actors names are one entity unlike mostly any other countries in the world. Having them partake in fan service creates an entirely different story which especially gets worse the more you reuse the same duos because they remain stronger and withstand the characters that they play (*coughs* GMMTV)

I say MewGulf unintentionally queerbaited because the story of themselves was spun stronger than their characters (also something GMMTV is bad about doing). Thus led to a narrative where they did portray a relationship and under all terms but verbally, was romantic. This had every single person comfortable with the idea of their relationship as one would be with a show because although they are playing characters on screen, fan service leads them to play a character offscreen as well and these “characters” portrayed a relationship. Him not clarifying it sooner and leaving it ambiguous is what really sealed the deal. I know for a fact (although I have no problem with it again) that if his lover is announced and she’s a female, he’d be hit with atrocious backlash.

You can’t act in love, tell everyone that you love that person and be surprised when they think you’re in love with that person. If any single bl couple that displayed fan service was swapped out with a girl they would automatically be considered in a relationship. There is a reason why when that KP stuff happened, many people weren’t focused on the fact that BibleBuild wasn’t real. It’s because they never really partook in fan service to the extent of other couples. Clockwise, if ZeeNunew came out as not real then a riot would ensue because they have built their entire marketing strategy around “dating”.

Tl;dr/ Fan service leads to a separate narrative that creates a story with the actors as the main character which is the strongest appeal in the BL industry. This in turn queerbaits fans as they fall in love with the entertainment portrayal of the story created by companies. MewGulf being outrageously good at it set them up for destruction for when they actually decided to publicly date. As long as this continues, this will happen with every single BL couple in the industry that continues to display fan service.

[ingravinoveritas]

Crowley and Aziraphale always came off as romantic to me; both in the book and in the show. They have so much more chemistry than anyone else. And I always second guess me reading their relationship as romantic when I see the general public's takes. So then I go back over like, okay, if this was a man and a woman, how would this read. They do couple things all the time. They use pet names. The show leans more into pining but in the book it feels like they're already married. Both the narrator and other characters refer to them as a couple and its never contradicted. Is that subtext or just plain text. I wouldn't call it queerbaiting, but queercoding or representation doesn't feel quite right either. Are we reading too much into it or is media literacy dead.

Hi there! Thank you for sharing these thoughts in response to my post from the other day. What you've mentioned here (how this would read if it was a man and a woman) is something I have thought about as well--both in terms of Aziraphale/Crowley and Michael/David, as I have shipped them outside of the show for some time now, and especially given the increasingly fuzzy line between them and the characters (which both Michael and David themselves have talked about in multiple interviews).

I think what we're seeing is neither queerbaiting nor queercoding/representation, but instead a sort of incongruity between what was put on the printed page when Good Omens was first published and what was brought to life on screen when it came to TV. What I mean by that is I often see a lot of people point to the line "gayer than a treeful of monkeys on nitrous oxide" as proof (almost typed "poof" there--hello, Freudian slip...) that Neil/Terry meant for the characters (specifically Aziraphale) to be gay. But from what Neil has said, the main intention here was for this to be a play on words--so, "gay" as in homosexual, but also "gay" as in happy, which was the original meaning of the term. I'm then led to think that in the minds of two cishet men in the late 1980s, "gayness" conjured a particular, unserious image, which they then brought into the writing.

Fast-forward to thirty years later, and you have Good Omens finally becoming a television show. Terry Pratchett (Gnu) had sadly left us, and so the task fell to Neil to write the screenplay and honor Terry's last wish by faithfully adapting the story. And while Neil wisely decided to cast Michael for his goodness and angelic-like nature, what I think he didn't count on was Michael's long-held beliefs and ideas about the character of Aziraphale and how he would portray him, or his profound penchant for playing numerous queer characters over the last several decades. The gayness of Aziraphale on the written page was something that Neil could control, but he couldn't control the gayness of Aziraphale as interpreted by Michael.

So that led to Neil having to address some things that I don't think he was quite prepared to address, both about the show and inside himself. Mainly, that if we are to extrapolate that what we see in season 1 is a reflection (to some degree, anyway) of Neil's views on relationships, a straight couple with little to no chemistry can jump into bed together without any hesitation, but a gay couple with tremendous chemistry and who share a deep and profound connection can't express that, either physically or by simply saying "I love you."

Much discussion has been made about how it's not necessary for someone to say "I love you" to convey such a sentiment. But what I've noticed missing from this discourse is the age/experience of anyone who has been in a relationship where that wasn't said (or conveyed) by one partner and how painful that was for the other partner. And as I mentioned in my other post, even once gay/queer people started to exist in media, they still weren't allowed to fall in love. (The phrase "the love that dare not speak its name" even came into being because of this taboo, for crying out loud.)

So when we then look at the countless tweets from Neil about how Good Omens is a love story while considering the vastly different ways in which that love is regarded when it's straight vs. when it's gay, his words start to ring somewhat hollow. And if he repeatedly has to emphasize that something is a love story, then maybe it isn't coming across as a love story in the way he thinks it is. Maybe Neil being more comfortable with casual, meaningless sex than a deep commitment speaks to a larger issue on his part. Or maybe Neil was fine with the abstract idea of a gay love story, but suddenly less comfortable with the concrete, three-dimensional reality of it.

If I had to use a word to describe it, then, from a media/cultural standpoint, I think I would call it "queerplaying," which I would define as roleplaying queerness on a surface level without actually delving into the complexity and messiness of what it actually means to be a queer/non-cishet human being. (To be clear, I am applying this to the writing/the original GO text, not to what Michael and David ultimately brought to the roles as actors.)

I hope this all makes sense. Again, the second season could come out tomorrow/Friday and prove me completely wrong about everything I've just said here, which would be wonderful. But I'm glad that other people have felt similarly about what we saw (or didn't see) in the first season, and the disconnect between the perceptions of fans/the perception of the public vs. Neil's authorial intent. Thanks for writing in! x

[deathon1leg]

it’s frustrating when people (mainly GA—and, surprise! homophobes!) act like byler is in the same vein as background ships that hardly even interact with each other—i.e fanonical ones with a loose basis in the actual show...

if you think byler is just some far-fetched fan theory you might wanna rewatch the show. i mean, it’s been several years since the first three seasons, a refresher could be good to remind you that mike and will’s relationship is sewn into the very fabric of the show. there’s always been special, very deliberate emphasis on the two of them in comparison to any other platonic pair in the show. there’s always been romantic framing, tropes, subtext, and parallels with them.

st*ddie and r*nance, for example, aren’t as deeply based in the show. they have real chemistry, understand each other and are very cute—i don’t mean that in a belittling or sarcastic way, they’d both make good couples and i’m a casual shipper /gen. the difference between ships like them and byler is that the show literally would not function the same without mike and will’s unique dynamic, and not going through with making them canon would be a huge storytelling failure and (yeah i’m gonna use the word) queerbait.

people treating byler like some made up impossibility isn’t just a way to demean us, specifically, though. the root of it is (unsurprisingly) homophobia. their rhetoric isn’t really about it being unrealistic, even if that’s what they’ll claim—it’s about us believing two well-established, likable, and not especially stereotypical MALE characters in a super popular tv show could actually get together. because as you know, all queer people look/act the same, never have comphet, and never get happy endings, etc etc /s.

(and it’s funny, because a lot of them are willing to accept that will’s in love with mike but only under the condition that will gets his heart broken. reeks of homophobia, methinks)

this is probably hypocritical considering this post but, to bylers: don’t let them succeed in demeaning you. please don’t let them make you doubt yourself. st*ddie and r*nance shippers too: their stories may not be as fully-fledged (partly because they’re more minor characters than the main party) but everything you see is intentional. you’re not making up the chemistry and dynamic you see, even the actors and actresses agree with you.

in conclusion (kinda), people think we’re seeing things that aren’t there because they can’t fathom a queer tv couple developing with the same tropes as tons of straight tv couples do: slowburn, several seasons in, love triangle, childhood friends to lovers, etc. the only queer couples they’ve ever seen in media are with characters that are established as queer from the get-go, and usually get with their s/o’s pretty early on. (also, there’s the large amount of people who cry that mike can’t love will back bc he has a girlfriend and is therefore straight—as if comphet and bisexuality don’t exist)

i don’t wanna be that guy but... it really does just come down to the fact if one of them were female, nobody would deny byler’s existence and that it’s endgame. it’s so stupid, but that’s actually what it comes down to. when you look past it all, the main anti-byler argument is “umm actually they’re both boys so :P”

so yeah. that’s what i wanted to say. thank you if you read it all <3 love u

[soul-wanderer]

Genuine question, I wasn't into fandom when I watched CM, and my mind is always blank with TV shows, so I rarely pin over one ship or another. I never understood why people say CM is queerbaiting. Can you please explain why? Because I'm genuinely curious, and if I'm being honest, now looking back, Emily is so shippable with anyone on the team. Maybe it's because of my view of 'not breaking a marriage, especially with kids in it', that make me never understood Jemily. I'm big on the Temily team, though.

Hey there,

I will try to keep the reply somewhat linear, but it's been so long that it's honestly going to be hard to remember everything that went down since, well, basically 2005 or so.

First off, I will acknowledge that queerbaiting looked a little/lot different on Criminal Minds than it did on other shows.

Behind the scenes, it's been both rumoured and openly talked about that the writers did consider making Emily's character queer, and I have read rumours that the same plans had been made for Reid's character as well. But, as is/was, none of that ever happened.

It's all a bit hazy now, but I vaguely remember the random queerbaiting tweets that originally showed up when the main show was still running, but I eventually tuned out of what they were posting on social media, because that kind of stuff quickly gets tiring. But I am certain they did make comments/remarks on certain pairings, only to never follow up on those, either.

But most importantly: The way some of these relationships/friendships were written, mainly the one between JJ and Emily and, to some extent, also the one between Morgan and Reid.

At some point, it felt like they weren't even trying to hide the fact that JJ was closer to Emily than she was with her own husband. If they had "just" been friends, maybe they wouldn't have stayed in such close personal contact while Emily was gone. This went way beyond JJ's duty to be there for Emily in regard to her safety. The same applies to Emily being the one to rescue JJ/the one JJ calls for help when shit goes down.

To help with the bigger picture here: In earlier seasons we do see JJ, Emily AND Garcia as a friendship group. And they maintain that, somewhat, throughout the seasons, but their friendship with Garcia is different, and it is quite obviously what we would consider a friendship.

And I will say the same about JJ and Reid. These two have known each other much longer, so it would be easy to assume that they are much closer friends. I will ignore the fact that after like fifteen years they decided that JJ randomly has feelings for Reid, because it's bullshit (in canon, anyway). They are friends, they are coded as friends and always have been. And they very clearly show what friendships are written like on the show - and it's not what JJ's and Emily's relationship looks like, at all.

They know each other in ways that are so very different from the other dynamics within the team, and most definitely different from what JJ and Will have. At some points it just became almost grotesque how close JJ and Emily were, without them being a couple, especially since Emily has a fantastic track record when it comes to tried and failed romantic relationships.

But I think most importantly, it's in the way they bent over backwards to avoid any and all queer relationships on the show. We have Hotch and Haley, Reid and Maeve and Maxine, Morgan and Savannah, Garcia and her two nerdy boyfriends, Blake and her husband, Emily and that British dude and I think there was someone else as well? And of course JJ and Will. The argument that this show isn't about their personal relationships simply does not work, when time and time again there has been such a heavy emphasis on their private lives, and much more importantly, on their very much heterosexual relationships. It's almost laughable now, how absolutely fucking straight everyone on that show was. I mean, what are the odds? What are the odds?

And another honourable mention: I remember at some point the pressure got so big, that apparently the writers/producers couldn't entirely ignore it any longer, and all we got was that iconic scene of JJ and Emily at a pride? event, like full blown rainbow flags and that big fucking ass speech about tolerance/acceptance? I don't care to remember, because nothing ever came of it, other than some laughable virtue signalling.

And let's just not mention how being gay only ever existed in relation to crimes being committed, so there is that.

So yeah, maybe it wasn't outright queerbaiting in the traditional way, but in many ways it still was, and at the very least they made it VERY clear that non-heterosexual relationships would not happen as long as they were in charge

[paperstorm]

Hello! I love following your stories and your posts. You always have such an interesting take on things!

I have a question that maybe controversial (that's why I'm on anon), so feel free to ignore this if you don't feel upto it.

I'm a cis, straight woman of relative economic privilege in a very traditional, conservative country. Which is to say, all of my interactions with and information about the LGBTQ+ community are from the internet. This sometimes is an issue because I end up learning the wrong things, where I think I'm being an ally but I'm just thinking things that are problematic in different ways.

I write a bit of fanfiction for other fandoms and I really enjoy watching 9-1-1LS. I have story ideas for Tarlos, but I'm not sure about the ethics of someone like me writing about a queer couple. Is it okay for me to do that? Or is it more respectful to just read and listen and learn? In case it's fine to write it, never having actually witnessed a queer couple's relationship, how do I write realistically without perpetuating problematic tropes that I've seen in Hollywood/TV/other fics?

(This might get long, I’m sorry followers, one day I’ll learn to shut up but not today and not about this)

I want to start by saying that ‘own voices’ started out as a good thing. It started with the purpose of allowing marginalized communities the space to tell their own stories, rather than prioritizing a white man pretending he knows what racism feels like when he doesn’t. It had really good intentions, and it’s still important to amplify the voices of people who are speaking from direct experience.

But because social media spaces are literally never capable of nuance, it pretty quickly turned into ‘you aren’t allowed to write or talk about things that you don’t have direct experience with’ and this is where it became a really harmful mentality. It has led to things like celebrities being forcibly outed (off the top of my head – Lee Pace, Kit Connor, Casey McQuiston, and Jameela Jamil, but I’m positive there are others) because the internet mob said ‘you can’t portray/write about queer characters if you aren’t queer! Publicly perform your sexuality for us or ELSE!’. On a much smaller scale, it led to me not including characters of colour in my stories for years, because tumblr and twitter told me I wasn’t allowed to.

These are not positive things. I saw a post once, years ago, that said something like ‘yes it’s important for POC to get to see characters who look like them as the hero of the story, but it’s equally important for people to see characters who don’t look like them as the hero of the story, because that’s how you learn empathy for people who are different than you’ and that has really stuck with me. It was not good that a teenager was forced to come out before he was ready a few months ago because twitter told him he was queerbaiting by just existing and living his life. It was not good that I went years excluding characters of colour from my stories. It was not good that I never tried to get into the headspace of someone like Sam Wilson or Nile Freeman or Yusuf al-Kaysani or Carlos Reyes or Marjan Marwani. We develop intense empathy for people who have vastly different experiences than us when we care about their lives and their stories and their struggles.

I showed this ask to my best friend who is also queer and he made a lot of good points in a series of very passionate texts but among them are these:

I would rather someone be open and wanting to explore a new community, perhaps occasionally stumbling over the wrong thing, but learning rather then sitting on the sideline like some kid outside of a candy store window.

I’m not interested in allies who are silent. Who haven’t put themselves in my shoes. Who don’t adore the parts of our community the way I do. I don’t give a FUCK about people who are just going to sit there and say “it’s not my place to speak/participate.” I want my allies in the thick of it. I want them saying I stand with you, vocally and I’ll only sit when you sit.

Quit making people treat marginalized groups like exclusive clubs. Everyone is welcome in my gay house

I know my family loves me because they are my family and I am of them. I need to know the rest of the world is going to let me in, too. I need to know that some successful author who has absolutely no stake in the game ALSO sees value in a queer voice in their story. I need to know I have a place in the world BEYOND the people who are accepting of me because they are like me.

So. All of this is a very long-winded way of saying please please PLEASE write and love and care about queer characters even if you, yourself are not queer. If you’re worried about getting something wrong or unintentionally writing something that is offensive, ask a queer person if they would be a sensitivity reader for your story before you post it. And be willing to accept the criticism if a person comes to you after and says ‘hey this was offensive’ (while also understanding that one queer person or one POC does not speak for the entire community, and that the concept of offense gets incredibly complicated sometimes). But write it. It is a wonderful, necessary thing when people care about communities that they are not a part of. In the immortal words of Mr. Bernie Sanders, when then question “Are you willing to fight for someone you don’t know?” is asked, the world gets infinitely better when the answer is yes.

[messymindofmine]

Ok so my thoughts s4e1

I'll admit that I was thrown for a loop at the bug "revelation" since I always laughed at the secret marriage theory. That being said, if you take Carlos as a character into context, it makes sense why he did what he did. He'd come out to his parents relatively recently and we already know their reaction wounded him deeply. Add on the fact that Carlos would likely have been working towards his career as a cop and we know that Gabriel thought he was too "soft" for that. It's not surprising that he decided that marrying a woman was the right answer. I do believe that it was wrong of him to not tell TK about it but again, given that communication is something we know Carlos really struggles with, it's not surprising. He may have been afraid of losing TK. And it's also possible that with everything he and TK have gone through in their relationship and the fact that neither Michelle nor Iris were even around, he just didn't think about it. I don't think it's fair at all to just condemn Carlos and tbh I'm betting that the "queerbaiting" accusations isn't even about Carlos so much as it is about a bunch of straight girls upset that the queer couple that they fetishize has thrown a woman into the mix. Let's not forget that this fandom has actually been called out over this sort of thing by the writers themselves which is something I have never seen before.

As far as TK goes...this guy is actually an angel ISTG. I love him so much and I am so proud of him. He would be well within his rights to be extremely angry not even necessarily about the marriage but the fact that Carlos kept it a secret this whole time. Instead he quickly processes what he's been told (seriously Ronen's facial expressions are so incredible) and reassures Carlos that everything is OK. He even asks if Iris is OK. TK has no reason to be concerned about Iris and I actually wouldn't hold it against him if he did instinctively dislike her due to everything. But bc this is TK we're talking about (the same guy who was worried about the kid that shot him even as he lay in a hospital bed with a bullet wound), his gut instinct is to ask after the wellbeing of a woman he doesn't even know.

Here's the thing, most of us who live past the age of 18 have things in our past that we're not proud of. We know TK does and it's something he struggles with. Its hardly surprising that Carlos would as well. Ok yes, this is one hell of a bombshell and it's weird to me that this is what the show decided to go with but it's only been one episode and there's a lot more to come. We know that at the end of the day, TK and Carlos will emerge from this stronger than ever. And as I said just recently in a post, Gabriel and Andrea's behavior has caused Carlos a lot of pain and they do bear at least some blame for Carlos making such a crazy decision to begin with. I hope that this arc allows for Carlos to confront his parents and for them to actually acknowledge the way they've treated him. I also hope that TK (even though he's being so amazingly supportive) is allowed to feel his own feelings bc he still has every right to be upset. I also don't like the idea of Iris interrogating TK being used for laughs. Bc really? Iris is like the last person in the world allowed to judge or question TK on anything.

Anyway, it's only been one episode and I'm already exhausted 🙃.

[evyisaks]

I hate whenever the tag has a resurgence of people trying to defend M*leven shippers. They will absolutely never do the same thing for Bylers. Obviously every single M*leven isn't a raging homophobe. But crying over how unfair it is to say negative things about them when a lot of their fanbase is very vocally homophobic just screams pick me behavior.

Also, I'm sorry. But if M*levens don't see a problem with the gay kid's feelings being used to fix a straight couple's problems, that is really sh*tty of them. Wanting people to get queerbaited and the plotline of the show to be homophobic just because "my ship is cute and I Iike them 🥺 " is not a stance that many Bylers will get behind.

Hii! :)

Yes exactly! And I honestly have no issues getting started on how annoying and problematic parts of the Byler fandom can be. There are people in the fandom that are so hateful, and not for not finding Mcflurry cute or for thinking that Mcflurry's aren't watching the show right, but they are downright hateful.

However, this isn't what's being discussed when talking about the issues in the fandom. And I'm sorry but there's a difference in saying that someone isn't watching a certain piece of media correctly, and then being called slurs. There's a difference in saying that you don't ship Mcflurry and think that they were never in love, and then people calling Bylers homophobic slurs and wishing Will's death so that he doesn't come between McFlurry.

And most of the posts about Will from Mcflurry's is almost never positive- even if it's outside of Byler. Will is a loser. He's annoying. He's a cry baby. He's a crybaby. He's a bad friend and brother. He's creepy for liking Mike. You are creepy if you ship Byler. You hate El if you ship them. You are ableist against El if you want her brother to steal her boyfriend. But gay people having unrequited love stories and ending alone is realistic. It makes sense for Will's character to end up alone. Will realising that he's not a kid anymore and ending up alone makes sense. You need to read these bible verses because shipping Byler is a sin. The social media didn't queerbait with Byler, Bylers are just throwing up that word for nothing. Will dying would make sense in S5. Will dead and Mcflurry as endgame in S5 is the perfect ending.

I get it that people have friends who ship Mcflurry and they are nice, I'm mutuals with people who share different ships and fave characters than I do, and that's okay.

Do I agree that Bylers need to be nice to each other? Yes. Because at the end of the day we only know what the writers tell us and what is confirmed. Ones theory about Henry isn't the correct one and it doesn't make your theory any less valid than the one posted by a popular blog. People speculating about Mike's sexuality need to stop and think why bisexual Mike offends them so much, and some goes to people having bi-Mike as canon. Why does Mike being gay offend you?

Calling out people from your own fandom is so important to do because hey, Bylers aren't perfect shippers. People go too far. People don't always separate real life from fiction. Some Bylers are hateful. That's facts.

I think what bothers me is that we aren't telling some Bylers to back off because they are being hateful and disgusting. No we are telling Bylers to take all the hate and slurs from Mcflurry's, because saying that they are interpreting the show incorrectly is bad. And how can you say that Mcflurry aren't cute??? So sit back and watch the homophobic replies to a post that was "Mcflurry aren't cute. They were never in love and they bring out the worst in each other" because how dare Bylers not like Mcflurry?

[livvyofthelake]

Hi I did read the first 4? I think that’s the number magisterium books as they were coming out I don’t remember a lot of them but I remember the general vibe as being Cassandra Clare and Holly Black co wrote Syfy’s the magicians fan fiction but for middle schoolers. Also I tried to figure out what happened in the last book from fan reactions and only sort of understood it, so I can ask you what are your feelings about the resolution of the romance plot? :D (also Hi I’m S I like just followed you but I love your blog from what I’ve seen)

I PROMISE IT'S BETTER THAN SYFY'S THE MAGICIANS. I PROMISE. i would highly recommend finishing reading the series, i also only read the first 4 as the came out and tbh i don't think when 5 came out i was in the right mental space to appreciate it but years later i think it can slay.... the mental and emotional buildup makes it better i think, which is good because at the end of the day the golden tower was um. not a good book. to me. it was insane of course, i still think you should read it, it's a crazy book... my problem with it is not just because of the romance subplot but iDO have a little beef with the romance subplot.... and we MUST get into it..... also. hi, i realize i did not open this with a greeting i just went straight into talking, but yeah hi hello it's lovely to have u here <3

ANYWAY. so as we all know from the Posting i have been doing, i am a big fan of call and tamara's weird little thing. but i don't entirely like the way it was resolved in book 5? like. there's nothing bad about it i guess. it's more that i feel like tamara as a charcater had to be put on the backburner for this book so that tamara as a love interest could come through. it felt like every time she was in a scene it was always about how call liked her and was worried she didn't like him back and etc etc and they can't kiss because aaron's in his head blah blah blah. it was like can we go back to talking about how cool tamara is. can we have her suggest making a bomb again. where was her slay in this book, where was her freakswag. again, it was never truly like, Bad, but it also wasn't great. and furthermore. they didn't give the same freak realness once they were actually romantic interests as they did during the buildup, which is always SO LAME. like. tamara saving call from alex at the end of the bronze key instead of aaron even though "aaron is the good one" will ALWAYS be more insane and crazy than them kissing or whatever. you know how it is.

on the other hand though, i LOVED jasper and gwenda. that was peak side character romance there.... wish gwenda had been a bigger character in the earlier books but oh well i guess i can't have everything. they kinda had a little lake and felix love victor swag..... but i can't get into that or i'll scream. also loved the way everyone got coupled off but aaron. literally his schrodinger's gay character realness..... cassie and holly were REFUSING to confirm or deny that boy's romantic inclinatons!! kind of a 2010s queerbait slay. although i would literally never accuse cassie or holly of queerbaiting, that would be like, so insane and would would so rudely diminish the actual insanely progressive work they've done for gay representation. you know. so. aaron was not queerbaiting he was like. well. veronica lodge voice it was saving the world... in a way. he's like a character that's obviously queer coded but needs to be censored for some reason. and that reason is literally just that this series is way too short to be getting into the complexities of aaron being gay and in love with call. he was relegated to subtext for time reasons, happens to the best of us <3

[peanutbutterex]

tag 9 people you want to know better!

I didn't realize tumbr did this kind of thing too! I haven't done one of these since I was more active on DeviantArt!

Thanks to @givefangapuppy for the tag!

3 ships of all time:

I have so many ships, but I guess the ones that have been most significant and long lasting to me have been...

Zuko/Katara: I remember when Zuko became my favorite character alongside Katara, and I found fan art of them paired together. I thought it was such a great ship that I started liking it more than Kataang, and now that I am older and understand the nuances of it more, I am even more of a fan of them

Usagi/Rei (Sailor Moon/Sailor Mars): Now I have on occasion found the two of them to be pretty annoying, and my first actual ship in Sailor Moon was Makoto/Ami, or Sailor Jupiter/Sailor Mercury. However, after a while there was just something very compelling about Usagi/Rei and the drama of it, how they are at each other's throats like a married couple but still deeply care about each other. Also, Tuxedo Mask never did anything for me as a character, and while I like Seiya, I will always think the true one for Usagi is Rei.

Ed/Stede: My god this one was pretty groundbreaking. My one friend asked our friend group one day in the middle of finals week to watch ofmd with her, calling it the gay pirate show. I thought that she called it that because pirates are often pretty fruity, and I thought it was just going to have a gay aesthetic. Like many others, I thought once Lucius got his kiss from Black Pete and Jim was out as nonbinary that would be it. I had never seen some of the famous queerbait media, but I had been friends with people who had, so I was not expecting Ed/Stede to become canon even though I shipped it. When they kissed I screamed and after I finished the show I went straight to reading fanfiction. Never has a ship caused my mind to be as overtaken as it was from Ed/Stede becoming canon. So yeah, probably one of the most significant ships I've ever shipped

First Ever Ship:

Gonna be honest, it is probably Zutara. My first ships were either Zutara or Torklenz (Peter Tork/Micky Dolenz of the Monkees), but given that I was into ATLA before The Monkees it is probably Zutara.

Last Song:

Given that it was the last song I played in Project Sekai, probably Becoming Potatoes by Neru (the vocaloid version, of course. I am a vocaloid fan first and a project sekai fan second)

Last Film:

I can't remember, but it might have been Jesus Christ Vampire Hunter? I did not finish it because it was a family event to watch this so bad it's good movie, and we have to all finish it together.

Currently Reading:

here is the thing, I don't read books for fun much anymore, especially since I am a college student, but I started reading a witchy book that I am not sure where I put it rn.

Currently Watching:

well, if by watching you mean a list of the shows I want to finish but have not had the energy to, I will give a short but incomplete list:

Harley Quinn

Reservation Dogs

Tokyo Mew Mew

Revolutionary Girl Utena (though that is because I want to finish the manga before I finish the anime).

Currently Consuming:

Water. Hydrate don't diedrate

Currently Craving:

Sleep, which I will get after posting this, and for my major to not require a thesis, which will not happen.

Tagging:

only if you all want to! @midnightwings-pirates @marquise-de-clarabas @blakbonnet @dolenz-harrison-girl @plaudiusplants @bisghetti-o @missbananarose (yes you are like one of my closest friends but I am curious about your answers) @d0-n0t-p3rc3iv3-m3 @gaypir8bois69 @mycroftpedvia

[nakedmonkey]

I'm so excited after reading Paul and Lucia interview, but also really afraid Ava and Deb won't end up together as a couple after this talk, because they suggest she just seeks attention. What do you think?

Hi Anon!

(No real spoilers ahead just FYI, very very minor ones if at all)

So, in my post after watching eps 1 & 2, I realize now, I come off pretty Negative Nancy about the whole thing, and I want to be clear about some things: I LOVE this show. It runs through my veins at this point. I take issue with some of the narrative/technical/creative choices they made in the first 2 eps of season 2 because, in my opinion, those choices divert from the characters as we've come to know them, and I also feel they've sacrificed a lot of the emotional weight we were left with in the finale in favor of this supposed reset. I know most people loved it tho, and that's cool, we don't all always have to agree!

HOWEVER, I think there's a conversation we need to have, especially with season 2 premiering so soon for everybody who didn't get to see it in advance. So, I'm pushing through this retrograde-induced depressive episode to talk about some things because I do think it's important, especially given that a lot of us are just off this Killing Eve train-wreck of a series finale.

Alright, here we go!

The most important thing we need to keep in mind when jumping back into the show is that JPL have NEVER promised us Ava/Deborah endgame, nor has the show ever directly or explicitly pointed toward that being the intent of the plot. While it's employed every romcom trope already, they have NEVER given any indication that Deborah and Ava will ever canonically be romantically involved. The repeated mantra of "Hacks is a love story" is true and genuine, and in my opinion can remain so without having Ava and Deborah ever actually get together. It's important that we don't confuse fanon with canon because that's the easiest way to disappoint ourselves.

Now, I'm obviously not JPL so I don't know what their plans are for the show, but as it stands, and take it from someone who has listened to every podcast & watched every interview with JPL because what goes into making a show fascinates me, I have never, ever felt as if they're trying to sell us Deborah and Ava as an actual couple who get together and hook up and fall in love. This is not queerbait. I repeat, this is not queerbait.

(the rest will go under the cut as I discuss some spoilers from the JPL interview)

As far as that interview, and the comment about Deborah loving attention, I mean...I think that's been pretty clear from the very beginning. She even admits it herself when she says "You know I hate attention". She is an attention whore and we love her for it! I don't know if they really are going to allow Deborah to explore her sexuality on the cruise in the way I hope they do, but if that's a thing that's going to happen, in my opinion it makes perfect sense that it happens while she's surrounded by women who want to fuck her lol

That being said, we should also prepare ourselves for the heartbreak of Deborah being like "well, I tried that and it turns out I'm pretty straight" because it is a possibility. JPL don't owe us a queer Deborah Vance, especially if that was never their vision for her in the first place, and ESPECIALLY when they've given us so much queer content already. Literally everyone else in this show is queer, played by queer actors, written by queer writers, this show is still our queer unicorn. That they've given us Ava's dream already and that they'll give us (at least that's what it sounds like) Deborah potentially giving some lucky girl a chance is gift enough.

Look, we're lucky enough to have some incredibly talented writers in our little fandom. Writers who are so good they've convinced us Ava and Deborah are actually on the road to ending up together lol. That's what fanfiction is for, kids! All I'm saying is, let's be realistic about what we're watching and let's just enjoy this show for what it is and not for what it isn't because honestly? It's still like nothing I personally have ever seen and I'm not willing to discredit it that easily.

[nightswithkookmin]

RE JIKOOK IS QUEER

Absolutely!

There is a queerness to them that is undeniable and cannot be mistaken for anything. People try to explain it away as fanservice, queerbaiting, normal Korean brotherhood handshake.

Whatever you say it don't change the fact that they still very much come off as queer💀

I mean the fact they feel they have to explain it in the first place💀

The fact that they can't even say something as harmless and unproblematic about Jikook as THEY ARE JUST GOOD FRIENDS💀

If it smells like a duck it pretty much is a duck.

I've seen other western actors with smililar popular gay ships talk about how their shippers are misconstruing male friendships as homosexuality.

I've said this in my posts, over sexualization of ships threatens male platonic intimacy. Just because two men are close don't mean they are in a homosexual relationship.

Not all ships are alt ships and perhaps the fandom needs to stop treating every single ship as one.

Tae and Kook can be friends without being in a romantic relationship with each other. Same can be said of every ship in BTS including Jikook.

There are those who simply think they are just good friends and goofy dorks. That's a valid opinion to have.

It just so happens that I think they are more than friends and I have a blog dedicated to exploring that possibility and celebrating it. Free will free speech.

Is it delulu? Yes. But I like my odds. Gay ships exist in kpop and they wouldn't be the first.

I don't need to dismiss Tae Kook's friendship and act like it doesn't exist or that it exists purely to entertain an audience because that narrative reduces men to emotionally stifled anti social beings incapable of forming nonsexual intimate bonds outside their families which is simply not true.

And id you are a joker and Taekook threatens you then you have to admit to yourself there may be more to their relationship than you're willing to admit.

And if Jikook don't strike you as a couple then you don't have to force yourself to see them that way.

Whatever they have is beautiful. They've worked on it, nurtured it and value their connection. There's no need to disrespect or dishonor it by making up weird theories that dismiss and invalidate it.

And maybe some other ship isn't there yet and their dynamic is still in the process and needs work and nurturing. It's ok too.

No two relationships are the same. Some friendships blossom quickly and die quickly. Others are a slow burn. And some are old flames that need rekindling.

This whole fanservice queerbaiting debate is mute. BTS have said the staff intentionally match certain members in certain clothes and in recent times their stylists have admitted to drawing inspiration from queer artists.

Some go as far as to show them concepts from queer couples and what not. We are not crazy for seeing all these queer codes in bangtan and in Kpop.

As for the homoerotic fanservices which all the members participate in every now and then, it's pure entertainment like Tae says. It has nothing on their relationships.

They know which moments Army will go crazy over. He kissed Jin and said Army will like that. Whether that is ethical or unethical is a debate for another day.

If BTS wants to start a blog to defend male bonds I'd be happy to run such a blog for them for free:

THE DEHOMOSEXUALIZATION OF MALE BONDS| The liberation of male friendships from the thirsty straight female's homosexual fantasies.

At best, they set a good example and blue print of what healthy wholesome male relationships should be in a patriarchal society.

Because the current requirements of patriarchy has our men emotionally dead and disconnected from their feelings making it easy for them to hurt the women they are in relationships with.

Jikook are either queer or they are the best example of what male friendships should look like.

Either way I'm down with it and I'm proud of them. I will always celebrate them and be in their corner

GOLDY

[matan4il]

Different anon but wanted to add on the other anons thoughts about is Buddie obvious or not.

My thing is like if it was just one incident you can explain it away. Like the Santas Elf scene for a start. If there was only that little nod I would just be like kind of explainable because maybe Buck was being polite. I can't say I wouldn't have actually acted the same in that moment. No one wants to come off like eww homophobic you know?

But the problem is there is all the small nods, to many to count honesty that leave hints. Even back when Lena bailed Eddie out of jail and Eddie made a point to distinguish Buck from the 118. Then there are the huge hints. Hello Christopher's gaurdian ext.

And I would like to think 911 is one of the few shows that wouldn't bait that way or continue to do so after realizing what was happening. Especially now that we even have quite a few mainstream news articles about it.

Hi Nonnie! Thank you for replying to this post.

And yes, I agree, there's def an effect we can't ignore when it comes to how many Buddie hints and subtextually significant moments we get. Look at this compilation alone, never mind all of the accumulated meta I have been writing for Buddie for literal years now! (which yes, also included a reference to how Eddie singles out Buck when Lena bails him out of jail)

There's just no way for most viewers to turn a blind eye to all this, not even casual ones. The amount of anecdotes I've heard about casual viewers mistakenly thinking Buddie are a canon couple, or hearing how many non-fandom viewers (including straight men) also want them to get together says so much IMO!

And I agree with you, I'd also like to think that about 911, and tend to feel like it wouldn't be that kind of a show. Shows that in the past seemed to me to clearly and intentionally be delving into queerbaiting have always been show that were either based in a het canon that can't be changed, so a queer ship can only be added in in subtext (such as the BBC's Merlin) or shows that are so enamored with certain ideas about masculinity (or seem to think their viewers are) that they will happily indulge in subtext, because that brings some fans to the table, but they won't actually follow through on it (and Supernatural fell into this category for me. Yes, it did portray homosexual individuals positively, but it's own hyper-masculine lead, Dean? He could never be allowed to be canonically gay or bi. There could be hints, but they always had to be hints, jokes or what other characters fell for Dean, not something he would ever be allowed to explicitly express).

In this context, I wanna mention The Blacklist again, because its ultimate reveal, presented at the end of s8, while not being in the context of a queer ship, well... it is one that undermines the notion of the hyper-masculine lead. And I have to admit, it's why when I contemplated this possible solution to the show's main mystery, somewhere mid s7, I also dismissed it. I thought the show would never go there 'coz TBL too seemed pretty in love with that notion. So imagine me watching the first 5 or 10 minutes of ep 821 and realizing that yes, they ARE going there. I guess my surprise over the show's bravery was actually bigger than my surprise at the solution! Well, I was still half right, because while the solution was pretty clearly hinted in the most obvious ways possible at the end of eps 821 and 822 (down to the musical choices the show made), TBL didn't explicitly state it. Still, the hints were so thick, I believe most viewers got it, and even the ones who reject the real solution had to at least entertain it. And that gives me a lot of hope, especially since TBL is a show that started airing back in 2013. It's a sign that even shows that seem to be in love with the whole heteronormative hyper-masculine thing are capable of doing better.

Also! I forgot to mention this before, but TBL is actually more relevant to Buddie than I first realized! Kriesten Reidel, 911′s executive producer recently promoted to co-showrunner along with Tim, worked as a producer on TBL for a while, even writing a few eps, which means she must have known what the solution was and was down with it. And she has also included in her eps key moments for the very slow burn love story of Ressler and Liz, making everything I wrote about them in my previous TBL ask even more relevant to Buddie. And yes, she also wrote some awesome Buddie moments, like in 301 (Eddie has a key to Buck’s apartment, Eddie worrying about Buck’s wellbeing and choosing to help him by bringing Chris over, etc) and 503 (Eddie informing Buck he’s promptly taking Buck’s advice and breaking up with Ana before Eddie even does it).

So if that’s what TBL can do and 911 ISN'T ones of those shows that seem preoccupied with maintaining that hyper-masculine notion alive (we see it not just with the queer rep in both OG and LS, we also see it in the way that so many of the straight male characters are the opposite of the typical toxic masculine character, which stands out even more precisely because first responders are working in a field that's considered pretty hyper-masculine), just imagine what 911 is capable of! So yes, Nonnie. I'm with you, I have a lot of hope that 911 will treat Buddie and us right!

Sorry for the length, thank you for the ask and please have a look at my ask tag if you're looking for another ask reply. xoxox

[baya-ni]

The Queer Appeal of Sk8

Recently @mulberrymelancholy reblogged a post of mine with a truly galaxy brain take about how Sk8 “is a show made for queer fans” and generally how sports anime often depicts love and relationships in a way that’s more accessible and relatable to ace/arospec people than other mainstream media does.

Just, *chef’s kiss* fucking brilliant. I urge you to read their post here (note I’m referring to the reblog not the actual post).

And basically, it got me thinking about this concept of Sk8 as a Queer Show, and the kinds of stories and dynamics that tend to attract queer audiences in droves, regardless of whether its queerness is made explicit or hell, whether that queerness was intended.

And that’s what I’ve been pondering: What are the cues, markers, or coding, in Sk8 that set off the community’s collective gaydar?

I obviously can’t speak for the community. So here’s what aspects of the show intrigued me and what, for me, marks Sk8 as a Queer Show beyond the subtextual queer romances: a punk/alternative aesthetic, Found Family, Shadow as a drag persona, and The Hands.

1.) The Punk Aesthetic

All three of the above screenshots are taken from Ep 1, and every single one of them depicts background characters. They’re nameless and ultimately unimportant characters, yet each of them designed so distinctly and so unique from one another, one could mistake each of them for the main character(s) of another story.

Of what little I know about Punk subculture, I do know this: that the ethos of Punk is heavily built around a celebration of individuality and non-conformity. Sk8 seems to have incorporated this ethos into the very fabric its worldbuilding, and the aesthetics and culture upon which it takes inspiration appeals specifically to a queer audience.

I don’t really need to explain why Punk has such deep ties with the queer community. For decades, queer people have found community and acceptance within punk spaces, and punk ideology is something that I think is just ingrained in the queer consciousness as both lived experience and a survival tactic.

Therefore, a show that adopts punk aesthetics is, by association, already paying homage to Queer culture, intentional or not.

Queer fans notice this- like recognizes like.

2.) Found Family

This also needs little explanation.

Too often, queer individuals cannot rely on their “born into” families for support and acceptance. Too often, we are abused, neglected, and abandoned by those who we were taught would “always be there for us.”

And so, a universal experience for queer people has been redefining the meaning of Family, having to build our families from scratch, finding brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers in people with whom we have no blood relation, and forming communities tied together by shared lived experience rather than shared genetics.

And this idea of Found Family is also built into Sk8′s narrative.

Like, for example, the way that Reki promises MIYA that he and Langa will “never disappear from [his] sight,” filling the void that MIYA felt after his friends abandoned him.

And in the way that JOE becomes a paternal figure for Reki, teaching him ways to improve in skateboarding, and ensuring that Reki doesn’t self isolate when he’s feeling insecure.

And in the whole Ep 6 business with Hiromi acting as babysitter to the Gang.

Hell, even ADAM (derogatory) is associated with this trope. Abused as a child, he finds solace in an underground skateboarding community and culture he helped create- his own found family (or some powertrippy version of it anyway).

Again, queer fans see themselves depicted in the show, but this time in the way that the show gives importance to Found Family relationships between its characters.

3.) Shadow and Drag

This is one that’s more of an association that I personally made. But I was intrigued by the way that Hiromi adopts his SHADOW persona. He wears SHADOW like a mask, and adopts a personality seemingly so opposite to his day-to-day behavior.

Further, the theatricality and general “gender fuckery” of his SHADOW persona, to me, just seemed so similar to a the characteristics of a drag persona (I don’t know a whole lot about drag but enough that I’m drawing superficial similarities).

There’s also this aspect of a “double life” that he, and actually all the other adult characters of the show, have to adopt, which is a way of living that I’m sure a lot of queer viewers see themselves reflected in.

4.) The Hands

Ohhhh the Hands.

One of the things I noticed very early on is the way the show constantly draws our attention to Reki’s hands, which I thought was a little strange for an anime about skating. After all, skating doesn’t really involve the hands, or at least the show doesn’t really draw attention to hands within the context of skating.

I count 3 times so far between Eps 1-9 in which hands are the focus of the frame.

First, when Reki teaches Langa how to fist pump after Langa lands his first ollie, second, when Reki and Langa make their Promise, and finally, when Langa saves Reki from falling off his board.

And you know what they say, twice is a coincidence but thrice is a motif (no one else actually says this I think I’m the only one who says this lol).

I’m not really certain why hands seem to be such a shared fixation among queer people (at least among those I interact with). All I know is that gay people are just fucking obsessed with them.

I have a Theory as to why, and at this point I’d love for other people to chime in and “compare notes” if you will, but I think it basically has to do with repression. And in the same way that queer people have had to redefine the meaning of family, we’ve also had to redefine intimacy.

Being overtly physically affectionate with someone of the same sex, even if they’re your significant other, or often specifically BECAUSE they’re your significant other, can still be dangerous, even now despite the “progression” of society. Queer people know this, this vigilant surveillance of our environment and ourselves, always asking ourselves, “Am I safe enough to be myself?”

Already, Western culture is pretty touch-averse. That is, it’s considered taboo to touch someone unless they’re a family member or a romantic partner. And to touch a person of the same sex in any way that could be misconstrued as romantic (which is most things tbh) is a big no no.

There’s just A Lot to unpack there.

But basically I think that queer people, by necessity, have had to learn to romanticize mundane or unconventional ways of being physically intimate so that we can continue to be romantic with one another without “being caught” so to speak.

Kissing and hugging is too obvious. But a handshake that lingers for just a second too long is much more likely to go unnoticed, braiding someone’s hair can easily be explained away as just lending a helping hand, touching palms to “compare hand sizes” is just good fun.

But for queer people, these brief and seemingly insignificant touches hold greater meaning, because it’s all we are allowed, and all we allow ourselves, to exchange with others.

God, I’ve gone off and rambled again. What’s my point? Basically that the way the show draws attention to Reki’s hands, and specifically how they’re so often framed with Langa’s hands, is one of the major reasons why I clocked Sk8 as a Queer. It’s just something that resonated with me and my own experience of queerness, and I know that I’m not the only one who noticed either.

~

So in conclusion, uhhhh yeah Sk8 the Infinity is just a super gay show, and it’s not even because of the homo-romantic subtext (that at this point is really just Text).

Because what’s important to understand is that Queerness isn’t just about same-sex romance.

Queer Love isn’t just shared between wives/girlfriends, husbands/boyfriends, and all their in-betweens. Queer Love can be two best friends who come out together, queer siblings who rely and support one another, a gay teacher who helps guide one of their questioning students, a queer community pitching in to help a struggling member.

And that all ties with another important thing to consider, that what we refer to as the “queer experience” or “queer culture” isn’t universal. In fact, it wrongly lumps together the unique experiences and struggles of queer BIPOC all under one umbrella that’s primary White and middle class.

So I think what drives a lot of my frustration about labeling a show like Sk8 as Queerbait is this very issue of considering queerness and queer representation within such narrow standards, and mandating that a show must pass a certain threshold of explicit queerness to be considered good representation.

I get that someone might only feel represented by an indisputable canonization of a same-sex couple. That’s fine. But labeling Sk8 as Queerbait for that reason alone ignores the vast array of other queer experiences.

The aspects of Sk8 that resonate most deeply with my own experiences of queerness is in the way that Reki and Langa share intimacy through skating (intricate rituals heyo). For me, them officially getting together ultimately doesn’t matter- I’ll consider Sk8 a Queer show regardless.

Similarly, @mulberrymelancholy​ finds ace/arospec representation in that very absence of an on-screen kiss. A bisexual man might find representation in Reki, not because he enters a canon relationship, but in the depiction of Reki’s coming of age, growing up and navigating adolescent relationships. A non-binary person might feel represented through CHERRY’s androgyny.

That’s the thing, I don’t know how this show will resonate with other members of the queer community, and it’d be wrong to make a judgement on Sk8′s queer representation based on my experiences alone.

That being said, Straight people definitely don’t get to judge Sk8 as Queerbait. Y’all can watch and enjoy the show, we WANT you to enjoy these kinds of shows, and we want you to share these shows and contribute to the normalization and celebration of these kinds of narratives.

But understand that you don’t have a right to tell us whether or not Sk8 has good or bad queer representation.

And even members of the queer community are on thin ice. Your experience of queerness is not universal. Listen to the other members of your community, and respect that what you might find lacking in this show may be the exact representation that someone else needs.

[firelxdykatara]

gods, ok, apparently i’m not done.

atla fandom? we need to have a chat.

(....ok that made me sound pretentious as fuck. and maybe i am, but this needs to be said, cause i’m getting....real, real tired of a Certain Corner of this fandom and as a result, this is gonna be a discourse-heavy post so feel free to scroll past if that’s not your bag. as always, my salt posts all carry the catch-all #salt for ts tag, which you’re free to blacklist/filter at your leisure. i’m Very Annoyed at the moment, which will probably come through in the following post, so just. yknow. be prepared for that. or ignore it, that’s perfectly valid too.)

under a cut bc i do care for my followers and their sanity i swear lmao

there’s a real serious issue in this fandom with not understanding what queer terminology actually means or implies, especially when applied to a fictional narrative.

i’m specifically talking about ‘coding’, here. (if i were in a more meme-y mood, i might have said ‘the atla fandom found out about the term “gay-coding” and haven’t shut up since’.)

to the people who say ‘zuko is gay-coded’, i have this to say: you keep using that word. i do not think it means what you think it means. because he isn’t. i’m sorry, but he’s not! and the fact that this is such a prevalent claim in this fandom is distressing, bc it says to me that none of y’all know what gay-coding is or when and how to apply it! please, i’m begging you, go and look up these terms and what they mean and when they should be used before actually trying to plug them into your critical analysis, because when you misuse them and then call other people delusional for disagreeing with you it casts a pall over the entire fandom and is, i think, the root of some of the worst toxicity this fandom has to offer.

and the thing is, there are cases where gay-coding would apply--for instance, a couple series that are famous for queerbaiting their audience by coding their main characters as being attracted to one another (sometimes even despite their openly stated sexualities) come to mind, but those shows bare no similarities at all to atla and how zuko was written and portrayed! (and it would be funny, if it weren’t so obnoxious and infuriatingly wide-spread throughout the fandom, because the only queer couple we actually seen on-screen in either show wasn’t even queer-coded in any respect, and they’re canonically bi! [yes, i’m shading korrasami, or more accurately i’m shading bryke for refusing to give ka the build-up and development they deserved].)

this absolutely isn’t to say that headcanoning zuko as gay is a bad thing or invalid in any respect. (although the tendency for zukka shippers to do this specifically to keep zuko away from katara and/or invalidate his canon relationship/attraction to girls is more than a little eyebrow raising. especially since sokka is usually allowed to be bi, bc fans have no problem letting sukka stay in the background bc it’s no real threat, while jetko shippers are happy to have both boys be bi. [possibly bc katara is less a threat to jetko bc jetkotara is every bit as valid as any single ship between the three, but zukka can’t exactly let katara join in, and if the potential exists for zuko to be attracted to her then canon giving them the far deeper emotional bond becomes a threat to zukka’s existence? idk for sure--you be the judge.]) i prefer to hc zuko as bi (and always have, long before the atla renaissance), bc i don’t think zuko being attracted to boys is outside the realm of possibility, and it isn’t a threat to my ship since zuko&katara had a deep and emotional bond in canon that is very easy to develop further into something that becomes explicitly romantic--but the headcanon itself isn’t really the problem (although what it’s often in service to can be).

it’s the strange insistence that this is the only way to read his character, bc he was coded that way and so anyone who doesn’t see it must be too straight to understand--and i really shouldn’t have to say why and how that is so incredibly fucking insulting. (the ‘hetero lenses’ comment wasn’t cute when it came from bryke six years ago, and the same sentiment being repackaged and delivered by zukka shippers ain’t cute now.)

calling zuko gay-coded not only demonstrates ignorance as to what the term actually means, and how to usefully apply it in critical analysis, but also validates the frankly bullshit insertion of institutionalized homophobia in the world of atla where it was neither needed, nor wanted, nor ever hinted at in canon. as a queer woman i’m still infuriated by one fucking comic panel shoving institutionalized and systemic homophobia into a world where it was entirely unnecessary (and doing this in the first installment of the franchise showcasing a queer relationship??? making korra and asami worried about ‘coming out’ when they could have just gone on to have cute adventures together and tell people ‘hey we’re dating’ and have everyone else be ‘that’s awesome =DDD’ [because it is, in fact, possible to just have a world without homophobia i promise!!!!!] double yikes, i’m still pissed at bryke about it), and i doubly hate that ‘zuko is gay coded’ has become so widespread that ‘ozai hates him bc he’s gay’ has become a staple in that part of the fandom.

not only does making zuko gay and implying (or outright stating) that ozai hated and abused him because of it completely undermine zuko’s character arc by making his abuse about his sexuality rather than ozai’s toxic pride and anger at seeing himself reflected in his ‘weak’ son, but it comes very close to outright stating that abuse and trauma are inherently gay experiences, and they aren’t!!! they really aren’t, i promise!!!

abuse and trauma narratives exist outside of ‘my dad hates me because i’m gay’. and, quite frankly, there are MORE THAN ENOUGH queer trauma narratives out in the world. we do not need to start trying to retroactively make them canon in a series where they didn’t exist! if you’re gay and see yourself in zuko and project your own experiences on him, that’s understandable and valid. that does not make zuko gay-coded. and honestly, the insistence that he is makes very little sense to me, because you’re essentially trying to give the show credit for work you put into interpreting the characters! why would you want to do that? why not own your own headcanons and take credit for them, rather than insisting they are canon and everyone else is wrong for not seeing them??? like, i’ve said before that i’ve always headcanoned zuko (and katara) as bi, and even support it with my interpretations of evidence from the show, but the difference between ‘i think zuko is bi’ and ‘zuko is definitely gay-coded’ is that i know that bi zuko is my interpretation of canon, and that it is work i’m putting into the show that wasn’t actually intended by the creators/writers, no matter how much sexual tension i read into the jetko swordfight.

and like, zuko’s character arc doesn’t actually parallel a queer one all that well to begin with. it’s easy enough to do the work and twist it sideways just enough to make the general points fit, but the fact is, zuko’s arc is not one of self-discovery. it’s not one of coming to understand something fundamental about himself that he can’t change, that he was hated for, and coming out to his father in a dramatic confrontation where he shows that he understands himself and doesn’t need his father’s acceptance to be fulfilled.

zuko’s arc is actually one of trauma and healing. and those can (and often are--like i said, there are more than enough queer trauma narratives in the world, atla really doesn’t need to be one of them) be part of queer narratives, for sure! but they aren’t uniquely queer. and zuko’s confrontation with ozai during the eclipse doesn’t read like a ‘coming out’ at all. (yes, i’ve seen that post. yes, i rolled my eyes and moved on, bc unlike some people, i’m capable of not clowning on correctly tagged posts i disagree with.) zuko is specifically confronting ozai over his abuse, because his arc wasn’t about discovering anything fundamental about himself (and therefore realizing that ozai was hating him for something he couldn’t change)--it was about realizing that he was not at fault for the way his father treated him. it was also about realizing that the fire nation was broken and corrupt at its core, and that his father was an aspect of that he needed to break away from so that he could help the world begin to heal.

he says it himself:

Zuko: No, I've learned everything! And I've had to learn it on my own! Growing up, we were taught that the Fire Nation was the greatest civilization in history. And somehow, the War was our way of sharing our greatness with the rest of the world. What an amazing lie that was. The people of the world are terrified by the Fire Nation. They don't see our greatness. They hate us! And we deserve it! We've created an era of fear in the world. And if we don't want the world to destroy itself, we need to replace it with an era of peace and kindness.

making this about zuko being gay and rejecting ozai’s homophobia, rather than zuko learning fundamental truths about the world and about his home and about how there was something deeply wrong with his nation that needed to be fixed in order for the world to heal (and, no, ‘homophobia’ is not the answer to ‘what is wrong with the fire nation’, i’m still fucking pissed at bryke about that), misses the entire point of his character arc. this is the culmination of zuko realizing that he should never have had to earn his father’s love, because that should have been unconditional from the start. this is zuko realizing that he was not at fault for his father’s abuse--that speaking out of turn in a war meeting in no way justified fighting a duel with a child.

is that first realization (that a parent’s love should be unconditional, and if it isn’t, then that is the parent’s fault and not the child’s) something that queer kids in homophobic households/families can relate to? of course it is. but it’s also something that every other abused kid, straight kids and even queer kids who were abused for other reasons before they even knew they were anything other than cishet, can relate to as well. in that respect, it is not a uniquely queer experience, nor is it a uniquely queer story, and zuko not being attracted to girls (which is what a lot of it seems to boil down to, at the end of the day--cutting down zuko’s potential ships so that only zukka and a few far more niche ships are left standing) is not necessary to his character arc. nor does it particularly make sense.

(and before anyone brings up his date with jin--a) he enjoyed it when she kissed him, and b) he was a traumatized, abused child going out on a first date. of course he was fucking awkward. have you ever met a teenage boy????)

anyway, uh, that was a lot of words, so have a tl;dr: zuko is not gay-coded. there is nothing uniquely gay (or even uniquely queer) about his character arc or characterization, and he was certainly not coded gay in an attempt to sneak a queer character past the censors. if anyone involved with atla was gonna try that, it would’ve been in lok, and as established, they didn’t even manage to queer-code the actual queer relationship before the last few minutes of the final episode. headcanoning zuko as gay is absolutely fine (though if it’s only done to keep him away from female characters he may otherwise be attracted to, that smells more like misogyny than anything else), but insisting that this reading is the only one that makes sense, and anyone who doesn’t agree must be straight (hello, queer woman here making this insanely long thinkpiece) is very much not.

ship what you like, but stop trying to invalidate other ships and other interpretations of characters just to make your ship seem more plausible. it’s really not a good look.

[rosemarydisaster]

So, about Bi Caleb

Warning: very long post, discussing bi representation and biphobia.

*Sorry for spelling errors, English ain’t my firts language.

I can’t believe I have to tell you guys, but anyways: Caleb is bi whether he ends with a male character, a female character on a non binary character. That’s what bi people do, you know? they experience atraction for all genders. Saying that a bi character that ends with someone of the opposite gender is straight and queerbaiting is incredibly biphobic.

Yes, Vax was bisexual. Yes, he ended up with Kiki. Get fucking over it.

Now, I can understand why LGBT+ fans may feel disappointed when they tease a “gay couple” but the “straigth” couple ends up being endgame. Notice the quotation marks because there’s not such thing as a straight or gay couple for a bi person. They are bisexual in both situations, but I can see where the problem comes from. I’ve been queerbaited to hell and back by a lot of shows and it really hurts. It feels like they are laughting at you for caring. But I want those fans (whose feelings are totally valid, don’t get me wrong) to consider a few things when it comes to Critical Role, the first one being: it’s a D&D game.

Let me explain, because I know a lot of CR fans haven’t experienced what D&D is like in real life (and that’s absolutely valid, you don’t need to play D&D to enjoy CR). This is an improvisation game, not an scripted TV show. In a Tv show you can plan ahead of time what ship is going to be endgame, what themes are gonna come up for each character and it’s easier to deeply explore sexuality and gender as different planned arcs. In D&D you character’s sexuality may or may not come up depending on how you play it. Take for instance how other CR character’s have stated their sexuality:

Beau: overtly. Very *In your face* kind of lesbian. Marisha said “fuck it, I really just want to romance girls and be bad ass”

Yasha: openly, but not as in your face. Ashley Jhonson wanted to drink from that WLW cup while also being a shy disaster. Seafood market is her favored terrain.

Caduceus: Our Ace king has never hidden his sexuality, and yet he didn’t mention anything about it until chapter 114. He didn’t had the need to either hide it or state it. He was simply vibing.

I think Liam is going that route with Caleb. He’s flustered by Essek and Edwulf (Come on you guys, he always asks Matthew if he’s still hot). He also had/has a thing for Astrid and a think he might have feels for our favorite Tiefling gal. I know we are all too used to characters being teased as gay/bi only to have execs pull a “haha jk they be straight”. But this is not Sherlock or Supernatural. This is a show that not only has queer rep, but also supports queer organizations and creators. Hell, I’m sure some of the cast members are LGBT (but I’m not here to speculate on real people’s sexuality). If Caleb shows attraction to men he is not just queerbaiting, doing it for fanservicing or tricking the fans in any way shape or form: he’s just portraying a bi character. The thing is, since this is not a TV show, he is not doing it por woke points or to send a message. He’s doing it because he wants to play a bi wizard with depression.

So maybe there will be a point in which he can explores his sexuality more deeply, but remember he is playing a game. And his character is one that has a lot of trouble opening up to his feelings. Caleb is not someone that makes sexual jokes or flirty remarks. He is shy, awkward and has developed a really fucked up sense of love that he is now slowly fixing. Hell, in the same Talks episode Liam explained that Caleb was trained on Honey-pot tactics. Which, for those of you who can’t stand Bond films, means seducing your enemy/target to get information, manipulate them or assassinate them. WHICH IS A REALLY FUCKED UP THING! Let’s remember how he was the one to push Fjord to sleep with Advantica so they could spy on her. That boy has Issues when it comes to relationships. So if we don’t see him being as overtly gay as Beau, Molly or Yasha, well maybe it’s because that’s the way Caleb is. Bi people don’t owe you flamboyance, or dating both guys and gals for your approval. I wouldn’t make a post if it was only that, because I do feel the people who are aching for good bi rep and would love some more explicit confirmation. But Vax exists, so I know we can’t have good things down here.

VAX EXPLICITELY SHOWED ATTRACTION TO GILMORE. AS EXPLICIT AS IT GETS. HE FUCKING KISSED HIM. THEY WERE PRACTICALLY DATING. AND YET SOME OF YOU FUCKERS CALL HIM QUEERBAITING. AND I SAY: NOT ON MY WATCH! NOT ON MY FUCKING WATCH!!

How come a character can have canonically kissed another character in a romantic/sensual context and still be called straight? I know fucking Sherlock traumaticed y’all into having trust issues but believe me when I tell you: I’ts not that deep. This is not a “Haha I love u but in a no homo way bro”. It’s a “full homo darling, but also we’re gonna break up because I like someone else”. This is the opposite of queerbaiting. Instead of keeping a charade he was honest with Gilmore because he valued his feelings and realized that he couldn’t reciprocate them at that moment. And if you try to tell me that Vaxleth was forced and didn’t have a reason to exist except queerbaiting, let me tell you: you are wrong.

Vax saw Gilmore once or twice monthly while he spent a heck ton of time with Kiki. Sure, they didn’t had the kind of camera chemistry Gilmore and Vax had because Keyleth is not charismatic. She’s really awkward, and her relationship with Vax was more on the adorable and dorky side of things. I bring this up because I’m predicting something similar may happen to Shadowgast.

Trust me, I ship the hot wizards as much as any other critter (even though I’m a multishipper). But they haven’t talked to Essek in centuries. I think it may have been almost a month in rol and quite a few outside. And you have to take into account out-rol time to because they are humans (except Tal) playing a game and they forget about stuff (except Marisha and Matt). So Shadowgast may not happen because sure, they had really good chemistry for a month a month ago. People have crushes that die down over time All The Time. So maybe don’t be so butthurt about your ship not being canon that you accuse an ally of homophobia. 

The cast of CR put forward such an amazing representation for the LGBT+ community and it really hurts me that you gets stuck on the one thing that isn’t canon. Matt has created a world in which coming out is not necessary because no one assumes your sexuality. A world in which people respect pronouns and orientations (except Tary’s father, who is a villain). A world in which Cad or Caleb don’t need to explicitly say “I’m ace/bi” unless it comes up in conversation. A world in which his friends can be whatever they want to be without pressure or reprecusions. A world in which they get to explore different gender identities and sexual orientations with full freedom. Let’s not interfere with that (unless there’s missrepresentation), and let them play their game. If you really need mlm or wlw canon couples or more outwardly LGBT+ people you have plenty examples among NPCs and other cast members (Allura and kima, Yasha, Beau, Dairon, Keg, Reani, Tary, Molly and Vax among others).

There’s way worst shows taking LGBT+ cred for barely doing nothing. Fucking Supernatural is the most recent example! Critical Role works towards showing an honest portrayal of LGBT+ folk and accepts valid criticism from their fans on the subject (when they changed J’Mon Sa Ord pronouns from it to they/them). They don’t owe you making your ship canon or portraying their characters the way you want them to (again, unless when it’s constructive criticism). Stop being so Fucking entitled and enjoy the show for what it is

,Respectfully~

*Edit: I´m tagging Caleb’s ships into the post because most hate comes from shipping wars. Most Shadowgast fans are respectful of the cast’s decisions, even if it disappoints them. But since I’ve already seen people accusing Liam of biphobia in that tag and since I’ve already seen this shit with Vaxmore I’m tagging the ship. If you want to read my long ass post do it, if not, ignore it. I’m not forcing you to read it. I’ve also tagged it with biphobia so people can avoid it if it’s triggering. I’m sorry if it makes you mad that your ship is not canon, but that’s not an excuse to be toxic to the cast. Those of you getting mad are the ones that need to read this the most. Like I’ve said in the post: you’re allowed to be disappointed, you are allowed to want more, but you can’t force the cast to give you exactly what you want. And most certainly, you can’t accuse them of  some very serious stuff like biphobia and queerbaiting when it’s not the case..