#I also stan Clytemnestra

[specialagentartemis]

in middle school during my Intense Greek Mythology Phase, Artemis was, as you can likely guess, my best girl. Iphigenia was my OTHER best girl. Yes at the same time.

The story of Iphigenia always gets to me when it's not presented as a story of Artemis being capricious and having arbitrary rules about where you can and can't hunt, but instead, making a point about war.

Artemis was, among other things--patron of hunting, wild places, the moon, singlehood--the protector of young girls. That's a really important aspect she was worshipped as: she protected girls and young women. But she was the one who demanded Agamemnon sacrifice his daughter in order for his fleet to be able to sail on for Troy.

There's no contradiction, though, when it's framed as, Artemis making Agamemnon face what he’s doing to the women and children of Troy. His children are not in danger. His son will not be thrown off the ramparts, his daughters will not be taken captive as sex slaves and dragged off to foreign lands, his wife will not have to watch her husband and brothers and children killed. Yet this is what he’s sailing off to Troy to inevitably do. That’s what happens in war. He’s going to go kill other people’s daughters; can he stand to do that to his own? As long as the answer is no—he can kill other people’s children, but not his own—he can’t sail off to war.

Which casts Artemis is a fascinating light, compared to the other gods of the Trojan War. The Trojan War is really a squabble of pride and insults within the Olympian family; Eris decided to cause problems on purpose, leaving Aphrodite smug and Hera and Athena snubbed, and all of this was kinda Zeus’s fault in the first place for not being able to keep it in his pants. And out of this fight mortal men were their game pieces and mortal cities their prizes in restoring their pride. And if hundreds of people die and hundred more lives are ruined, well, that’s what happens when gods fight. Mortals pay the price for gods’ whims and the gods move on in time and the mortals don’t and that’s how it is.

And women especially—Zeus wanted Leda, so he took her. Paris wanted Helen, so he took her. There’s a reason “the Trojan women” even since ancient times were the emblems of victims of a war they never wanted, never asked for, and never had a say in choosing, but was brought down on their heads anyway.

Artemis, in the way of gods, is still acting through human proxies. But it seems notable to me to cast her as the one god to look at the destruction the war is about to wreak on people, and challenge Agamemnon: are you ready to kill innocents? Kill children? Destroy families, leave grieving wives and mothers? Are you? Prove it.

It reminds me of that idea about nuclear codes, the concept of implanting the key in the heart of one of the Oval Office staffers who holds the briefcase, so the president would have to stab a man with a knife to get the key to launch the nukes. “That’s horrible!,” it’s said the response was. “If he had to do that, he might never press the button!” And it’s interesting to see Artemis offering Agamemnon the same choice. You want to burn Troy? Kill your own daughter first. Show me you understand what it means that you’re about to do.

[idamante]

"Clytemnestra killed Agamemnon what a queen!" Damn who the hell cares she abuses her kids

[ginathethundergoddess]

Actually I'm not done.

Agamemnon wad a genuinely shitty, immoral bastard even by ancient terms because he lured Clytembestra and Iphegenia to the island the Greeks were trapped on (also by agamemnons own folly) BY SAYING ACHILLES HAD ASKED FOR IPHEGENIA'S HAND IN MARRIAGE. IPHEGENIA CAME FOR A WEDDING. SHE WAS SO YOUNG. Like. To a Greek lady of high birth this was the end game and plus Achilles was Greece's most eligible bachelor too (even tho he was like 15. Iphegenia also was pretty young too.) So she was naturally overjoyed. Her mother even more so.

AND AGAMEMNON DIDNT TELL ACHILLES EITHER. HE JUST USED THE BOY'S NAME. WHEN ACHILLES SAW THE GREEKS SPRING ON IPHEGENIA TO RIP HER FROM CLYTEMNESTRA HE LEGIT FOUGHT THEM.OFF.

AND THEN AGAMEMNON HAD THE GALL. TO BE MAD ABOUT IT? LIKE. ACHILLES SHOULD HAVE JUST KILLED THE FUCKER THERE AND THEN I SWEAR TO GOD BECAUSE EVERYTHING AGAMEMNON DOES FROM THERE OUT SCREWS EVERYONE OVER REGULARLY. I'M SURPRISED NO ONE STABBED HIM EARLIER INTO THE WAR. I WOULD HAVE. I'D HAVE FUCKING POISONED HIM ON THE SHIP NGL.

Further: Iphegenia loved her father and was loyal to him. So even after he lied to her, was set on killing her to get this war rolling, and set his own men to capture her, she still went to the temple of Artemis and allowed herself to be sacrificed to soothe Artemis' wrath. She did what she considered her highest duty and honor.

I have no idea why the Greeks thought Agamemnon fit to run the army. My professors always implied it was because he was the wealthiest of the Greek kings.

What makes me even angrier is that everyone in the Odyssey demonises Clytemnestra over it. Every single person on ithaca's council is like "oh Penelope is probably cheating on odysseus and ready to murder him anyway. Just like Clytemnestra did to poor Agamemnon." AS IF PENELOPE WASN'T THE MOST PATIENT AND FAITHFUL WIFE.

THEY TELL TELEMACHUS THIS DAILY. THAT THEY FULLY EXPECT TRECHERY FROM PENELOPE. LIKE CAN YOU IMAGINE YOUR FATHER'S MOST TRUSTED FRIENDS AND COUNCIL DAILY WARNING YOU THAT YOUR MOTHER, WHO HAS BEEN BOMBARDED BY SUITORS DAILY FOR YEARS, WHO HAS REJECTED ALL OF THEM AND DONE HER BEST AS REGENT TO PROTECT HER LANDS, WHO HAS BEEN THE ONLY PARENT IN YOUR LIFE AND HAS DONE ALL.OF THIS WITH ONLY THEE SUPPORT OF HER HANDMAIDENS-- THAT THEY EXPECT HER TO BE FAITHLESS? THAT THEY EXPECT HER TO BE WEAK?

The only reason Penelope got caught with her weaving plot is because she was betrayed by one of her personal maids. She was just as wily and clever as Odysseus and her every action in the Odyssey shows that. She is given more agency than most women in Greek myth and I forever stan her.

Fucking hell. I'd have run through my halls and killed them for putting my mother's name in their mouth. I'd have been like "well if my mother loves her husband this much, what did agamemnon do that turned Clytemnestra so thoroughly against Agamemnon that she killed him on sight?"

"Oh??? He lied to his wife and daughter and then ripped Iphegenia from her arms and had her brutally sacrificed to repay a goddess for HIS OWN TRANSGRESSIONS? yeah no he had it coming. Keep my mother's name out of your filthy, lying mouths or I'll have your tongues cut from them."

Clytemnestra deserved better. And someone should have given Penelope a gun. She wouldn't have used it because she's the most clever woman in all.of Greece and was an excellent diplomat. But she should have the option.

Moral of the story: Greek myth boys need to defend their mothers better. Clytemnestra was justified in her vengeance and Orestes wad a little bitch about it. She should not have all this bad press-- ti the point that the odyssey pits two bad bitches against each other as foil characters. Send tweet.

99% of all murders committed by women in ancient greek plays are completely justified

[dootznbootz]

i feel like i would be burned if i said agamemnon and clytemnestra were the same, i hate when they make agamemnon look like the devil, bad father, bad everything but clytemnestra who abused her daughters and tried to kill a baby (who was her own blood and it was a punishment in ancient greece to kill your own blood) and killed caassandra's babies as the "perfect mother, punished by the patriarchy" (except if it's electra she deserves to be abused according to her stans)

What would happen if I wanted a retelling of the curse of Atreus as a cycle of domestic violence, toxic families, but how it passes from generation to generation, Agamemnon being the older brother and who has to become tough to protect Menelaus his younger brother, and Menelaus ends the curse by sparing Helen's life unlike his ancestors who gave his own daughter the throne giving a curse to his generation, Menelaus forgiving Helen and returning to Sparta with Hermione his daughter whom he pampers very much and for her he refuses to marry again for fear of being treated like a bastard

agamemnon trying to protect those he loves most But only one mistake causes his daughter to be sacrificed to his disgust and he also ends up dead because of his wife, there is something that bothers me is that many justify Clytemnestra saying that she did nothing wrong, But many forget in Iphigenia of Thauros that Iphigenia does not hate her father, she even calls him dear, when she hears that her mother tried to kill her brother who was a baby (yes, she herself mentions that she remembers that Orestes was her little brother) and when she realizes that he has been alive she is not angry because they killed her mother but Felix because the rest of her brothers live and does not hold resentment or hatred towards their father deciding to forgive

Many Clytemnestra stan say that Clytemnestra is punished by the patriarchy and did nothing wrong but they forget the parts where she used the Trojan women as spoils, enslaved her daughters and tried to kill Orestes and also forget that Iphigenia in some versions asked her to take care of her brothers (something that Clytemnestra did not fulfill), Electra is underestimated by Clytemnestra apologists and her actions also to villainize Orestes who is just a child

If the myth of the oristeia is to say that mothers are only incubators, but Electra's actions show that women still have power (she supporting Orestes to take the throne usurped by his stepfather) and showing an authority figure to her brother, even in some statues they put her as the highest than Orestes, something that only happened with mothers....

Orestes at the trial not only frees himself from the furies, he also frees his family, supported by his sisters and his uncle, Orestes kills the worst version of himself by killing Clytemnestra (one who was initially a victim but became a victimizer) ending a cycle of violence

I'd be burning with you if that were the case tbh.

As I agree with the whole "Both Agamemnon and Clytemnestra do some awful things" and how people hate on Agamemnon and put Clytemnestra on a pedestal which is really really annoying. Honestly I don't have too much to add as you've already laid it all out very well.

I spoke about it a bit before but where is the feminism in a mother throwing away her children for her new partner? (Modern day we hear stories about how that fucks the children up, y'all don't think it was the same back then?) Where is the feminism in killing the victim of the man who has caused you pain? Why is feminism always more "loved" when it's "violent"? Why can't women just BE? Why do women have to be violent in order for her story to be feministic?

Cassandra wasn't even one who behaved as a "homewrecker" who revels in destroying families. She was literally just trying to survive in the situation she was now in. She was a concubine for fuck's sake!

I really don't understand people villainizing Electra and Orestes so much. Like I'm sorry but if your mom, after killing your dad and making this new guy boss, THREW YOU OUT. I don't think you'd be very happy either. Why do people ONLY care about Iphigenia? Does her love for her siblings not matter?

People who genuinely revel and go absolutely bonkers about their Girlboss Queen Clytemnestra killing with no sign of like, irony and/or like, goofiness. I love Penelope who is constantly praying for the suitors to die. I joke about Odysseus' "Bother the wife, you get the knife". But like, yeah, THEY FUCKING KILLED PEOPLE. THEY'RE MURDERERS. I'M NOT SAYING THAT'S FINE IRL FOR FUCK'S SAKE!

And even then like, if it WAS just Agamemnon, then that'd be more understandable, still fucked but understandable. HE was the one who did the "deed" I guess. BUT YOUR OTHER CHILDREN RECEIVING CONSEQUENCE? WHAT DID THEY DO OTHER THAN EXIST?!

And oooh, I love the parallels between Menelaus and Agamemnon so much. The messed up brothers. :') Some really cursed guys.

[babyrdie]

Achilles stan are really hypocritical about Alexander now, did you see that?

No, I didn't see it.

I saw people mentioning something about Achilles and Paris, now there's this ask and I'm starting to wonder if the recent ask an anon sent me about Paris was a discreet way to test me (this one, where I explicitly say that I really don't care about Paris discourse). I honestly don't know where the hell this weekly Achilles vs Paris debate came from, so I'm really confused. It's a Tumblr debate and I just didn't see the original post? Is it an debate imported from another website? I don't know. But other than Apollo and Paris killing Achilles, I don't really see what relevant connection these characters have to each other. They also don't even have the same role or the same archetypes, which once again leaves me wondering why this comparison even exists in the first place.

But here we go: my opinion is that no one is a saint. In most of these X vs Y discussions, I'm simply going to consider both characters as not being people who would be considered good today. And it's the same case here.

Achilles killed Tenes despite being warned not to do so (he was warned by Thetis, so he certainly knew she was serious), sacked cities (including not all of them were Trojans), enslaved people (both men and women. Some were sold, others remained. Some were sexual slaves, like Briseis and Diomede), committed a murder inside a temple (Troilus), dishonored a body (Hector), practiced human sacrifice (Patroclus' funeral. And you can see from the narration that it's not a case of "ah, but human sacrifice was cultural and accepted") and stopped the winds just to demand Polyxena's sacrifice (I still wonder how the hell he stopped the wind). He isn't a saint.

Paris ignored Oenone's prophecies about the fall of Troy and abandoned her (she was his first wife. And unlike Cassandra, she wasn't cursed. He didn't listen because he didn't want to), stole Menelaus (I'm not even talking about Helen. He took Menelaus' treasure too. Honestly, at that point Paris knew he was bringing war to Troy and didn't care if he felt so comfortable that he even took the treasure), depending on the version kidnapped Helen, taken city (Sidon), killed a guy because he was jealous of him with Helen (Corythus. Who is his son, by the way) and he ignored the Trojans' requests and continued the war. He was a prince, so I guarantee you he had slaves too, and slaves are indeed mentioned in Trojan territory (e.g. Lycophron writes from the point of view of a slave watching over Cassandra). He isn't a saint.

Yeah, Achilles isn't just a cute guy in love and suffering for his boyfriend, but Paris is also not just a cute and harmless little thing. People paint Paris too much as harmless useless. So my honest opinion is that this discussion is a waste of time because neither of them is the pinnacle of morality. It's reminding me of the Achilles vs Odysseus debates, which were equally pointless because Odysseus, like Achilles and Paris, is also not an immaculate crystal. The Clytemnestra vs. Agamemnon debates were also another pointless thing because sometimes they even cited something they both did but only against one (e.g., Clytemnestra ridiculing Cassandra's status as a Trojan captive in "Agamemnon" and Agamemnon doing the same to Hesione via Teucer in "Ajax"). At this point, I think it would be interesting to read Greek mythology without trying to do morality rankings. I also already talked about this in this post.

So that's it, that's my opinion. I haven't ignored any asks I've received so far, but if I receive one more ask about fans and haters of characters and morality in Greek mythology I'll probably ignore it because I think my opinion is already pretty clear (It's even in my post about my blog). I also talked about this in the Hades Odysseus controversy.

[11x13kyle]

Greek mythology anon here. I can totally see Cartman - Oedipus in a world where he tries to redeem himself and still ends up being his own destruction, (a more interesting post covid perhaps), but Oedipus seems more like a Kyle character to me? The self righteous hubris and downfall caused because you couldn't stop picking at the answers even when everyone told you to drop it. I can absolutely see Kyle - Antigone, though, and Stan - Orpheus you get me!!! (Meanwhile I think you could have a fucked up played for laughs absurdist comedy of errors Creek - Eros and Psyche parallel) Also, goes without saying but Randy is Agamemnon (Shelly is Iphigenia, Stan manages to straddle Electra AND Clytemnestra somehow, Sharon is Chrysothemis)

RANDY AGAMEMNON MAKING ME FEEL MILDLY INSANE RIGHT NOW .

[saintarmand]

8, 17, 21 & 22 for the iwtv ask thingy! 🤍

8. Who's your favorite actor?

jacob anderson. come on now. they're all great but he is ethereal. second place assad zaman

17. Have you read or watched anything because it was referenced in the show?

oh just a few things

love's coming of age by edward carpenter

chéri by colette

nausea by jean-paul sartre (louis was reading this in ep6 when lestat and claudia are playing chess while talking about nicki. you can't see the full cover but i went detective mode and figured it out)

madame bovary by gustave flaubert

a moveable feast by ernest hemingway (s2 first look "esurient hearts beating as one, the rumbling beast of the moveable feast")

iolanta (tchaikovsky opera)

don pasquale (donizetti opera)

pelléas et mélisande (debussy opera)

a doll's house (henrik ibsen play)

a streetcar named desire (tennessee williams play) + the movie with marlon brando

i didnt read the full text but i did hunt down and read parts of "de masticatione mortuorum, the chewing dead" that claudia mentions, full title "dissertatio historico-philosophica de masticatione mortuorum" by philip rohr (1679) (view the original manuscript here + english translation here)

i havent finished all of emily dickinson's poems yet but im getting there! (some of these i had read before ofc but im reading them all in order now)

ive also previously watched nosferatu (and rewatched it for iwtv) and the trimph of the will (NOT rewatching 💀 that was for a film history class) and ive read dante's inferno which louis mentions ("if i was to join dante's wood of the self-murdered...") and i highly recommend it!!! absolute fav

there's also stuff that wasn't directly referenced in the show but the fandom has drawn parallels to, that i've read and watched for that reason.

anne carson's an oresteia (to better understand all the agamemnon iphigenia clytemnestra electra comparisons people make)

giovanni's room by james baldwin

rebecca (1940 film)

theres def more movies but i cant remember lol

and theres some nonfiction books i've yet to finish bc im slow at nonfiction

the vampire: a casebook by alan dundes (cited by writers as s2 inspo! about irl vampire folklore)

black new orleans 1860-1880 by john w. blassingame for historical context

the theatre of fear and horror by mel gordon, on the grand guignol aka the inspiration for theatre des vampires (i did finish this one except for the summaries of all the plays, i decided to skip that there's so many. very engaging read and gives a lot of insight into the some of the bts stuff we've seen about the theatre)

louis's favorite movies from the tale of the the body thief!

la belle et la bête (1946)

the company of wolves (1984)

the dead (1987)

i may be forgetting some stuff. there's also so much more on my list that i mean to get to. a prayer for owen meany by john irving, of "memory is a monster" quote fame is locked and loaded for example

if anyone's interested to hear my thoughts on any of these feel free to ask i would love to talk about it!!!

all this and i've still only read the first 6 of the actual vampire chronicles. and im still procrastinating starting merrick

21. What was your favorite monologue of season one?

HMM the obvious one is louis's confession. ive watched the whole sequence from the funeral to the end of the episode a truly unhealthy number of times. also claudia's coffin monologue

22. Who's your favorite character? Why?

LOUIS. probably because i relate to him so much. instant connection. tricked into loving myself. also like hes literally louis how could i not love him do i need to even explain this

when i started reading the books i didnt care for book louis that much lol but i did become an armand stan. possibly bc i also relate to him im selfish like that i guess. also just his whole backstory and the way it informs everything he does is so fascinating to me. ppl say hes incomprehensible and hes literally not. everything he does makes sense when you consider his life experiences

iwtv ask game

[la-pheacienne]

Something that irks me about Green stans is that they tell us Black stans “not to judge the story with modern standards,” but then they judge it with modern standards when it’s convenient, like to victimize Alicent by calling her a child bride, when in Westeros Alicent would not be viewed in that way. So basically, they want us to accept the patriarchy because “That’s just the way things are in Westeros.” While at the same time excusing Alicent by viewing her with modern standards. It’s extremely hypocritical. It’s also disturbing how much these Alicent stans want the character to be defined by nothing but her victimhood. They don’t want her to have any real agency. Every messed up thing she does, they always scream that she had no choice.

No honey we DON'T judge the story with modern standards. We judge the story with the fucking standards the author of the story put there. Misogyny, that's the standard, and it's fucking there. The misogyny that the greens weaponize to kill a woman and steal her throne. We're not revising the literary text, altering it's meaning to fit into a modern ideology. We are merely underlining its true a very obvious meaning that the author deliberately put there for us to see.

When we say that in ASOIAF, GRRM criticises the social exclusion of bastards, we don't apply modern standards to the story. This is the story. It's a criticism of the social exclusion of bastards. If you say for example that Clytemnestra is a girlboss and 100% justified in her actions and Aeschylus is misogynist, that's what "judging the story with modern standards" is, because Aeschylus didn't have that in mind at all. If you say that dragons are nuclear weapons, that's judging the story with modern standards, because GRRM didn't have this in mind at all.

(And I know about the ridiculous comment he made on the war of Iraq and Dany, but no guys that's not what you think it is. He didn't say that Dany's arc in Essos parallels the war of Iraq. He literally said that he would understand if people made the connection Americans, only Americans could make that connection and maybe both will have a similar outcome, but, quote, it's definitely not a parallel). But dumb fans Americans who don't know how to read saw this text and immediately went like OH THAT'S LIKE THE WAR IN IRAQ DRAGONS ARE NUCLEAR WEAPONZZZ do you even realise that the only reason you still scream of nuclear weapons in Iraq is because your country literally used that as an excuse to basically annihilate another country when there were zero nuclear weapons, well I guess not, if you did, you would realise it's not that cool and progressive of an argument as you think it is

That's why it's so dangerous to "judge a story by modern standards" it will eventually make you look like a clown.

[la-pheacienne]

I'm not sure I agree with anon here on Clytemnestra. Yes there are some Alicent stans who are inherently misogynistic and conservative so I guess they would totally despise Clytemnestra, but not all of them are like that, I'm not sure if the majority of them is like that. Most Alicent stans are just a by-product of Targaryen hate + self inserting on victimised, conformist and conventionally attractive female characters because they find them relatable. From there, they start to identify to whatever that victimised, conformist and conventionally attractive character feels or thinks. If this character happens to be a bigot, they don't give a flying fuck, they start spreading the most bigoted shit themselves to support the character just because she's victimised and conventionally attractive, basically. But that's always the case with bigoted ideology, isn't it? People always find good reasons to be bigots, also, bigots don't realise they are bigots. There is always a facade : they are victimised/discriminated themselves so they feel entitled to say shit for other people, or they idolise a person they hold on a pedestal and they accept whatever that person says as a pillar of faith. That's always how this kind of ideology spreads. Nobody wakes up one day and decides "ok now I'm gonna be a misogynist/blood purist because I love it". There is always an excuse, a front.

Now Clytemnestra's case differs because she's victimised but she's not conformist, she's quite the contrary. I do think that Alicent stans would support Clytemnestra in their majority, because the victimised part would be the heaviest in the balance. The problem is that Clytemnestra is not a good character. I'm not saying she's a vile character, but she's not a good one. I apologize to the Tumblr University of Girlbossification studies, but Clytemnestra is not the feminist icon TM people make her out to be (link to an excellent meta by @fweet-prince ).

I'm not saying that Alicent has any common point with Clytemnestra, I'm saying that her stans will normally stan Clytemnestra imo, and in both cases they would be mistaken. So what's the common denominator here? The common denominator is basically their functional illiteracy and wokemania of these people. I don't use the word wokeness very often because I respect its very specific origins, but here, I couldn't find another term that could describe what I'm trying to say.

They take the literary text and they don't understand shit in what they read because they have a Tumblr aesthetic in their mind that they are trying to satisfy like a hungry person yearns for a burger. Zero comprehension skills, zero knowledge/ investment in the historical context of the literary work. They look for hot, victimised girl aesthetic. Whatever they can find that remotely ressembles that, bingo, they stan. GRRM writes 700 pages to prove how misogyny can destroy a realm? DGAF, Alicent's hot and cries all the time so they stan. GRRM writes like thousands of pages showing how bastards are unfairly treated and socially ostracised by society? DGAF, Alicent says they're bad so they're bad. Aeschylus writes three fucking theater plays to tell a story of the sins of the parents that haunt their children, DGAF, Clytemnestra is a GirlbossTM and Aeschylus is a misogynist LOL, end of discussion.

I use the word wokeness here to cover the mainly american phenomenon of modern interpretation/revisiting of classic works (or even modern works with an already established different message), in order to reframe or adapt the literary text to a modern political agenda that is inherently foreign to the text. I agree with the political cause, that doesn't mean that I agree with the means, in particular, rewriting history and stripping literary texts off their context and overall meaning just because I have a different morality/a specific political goal. That's not only a manifestation of functional illiteracy, that's basically a fascist strategy.

TL;DR I do think that overall Alicent stans would participate in the girlbossification of Clytemnestra because, like in Fire and Blood, they would completely disregard Aeschylus' ultimate message in favour of a particular Victimised Vengeful Hot Woman aesthetic that is labeled as modern and feminist and cool, basically. So it's not that simple as anon's argument that Alicent stans become Clytemnestra antis because they are misogynists.

Alicent's fans reading The Crucible: I think the puritans are right not to trust witches, magic is a blood purist nuclear weapon and the puritan ideology of hard work and individualism helped them settle in a harsh new land. The same puritans who escaped religious persecution in England are right to enforce it in America.

Alicent's fans reading The Scarlet Letter: I can’t blame the reverend, the puritan colony and Hester’s husband because adultery and fornication are the greatest and most monstrous sins and women can’t go around fucking anyone like harlots just because they want to. Shaming, public humiliation and social stigma are necessary.

Alicent's fans reading Jane Eyre & Wide Sargasso Sea: Bertha is an insane, violent, lecherous, and depraved woman and she’s an exotic foreigner trying to ruin Jane and Mr. Rochester and mad women in the attic need to be put down for the greater good of humanity.

Alicent's fans reading The Oresteia: Clytemnestra is a mad woman who deserved to be murdered by Orestes. She cheated on Agamemnon and murdered him. She even murdered Cassandra, a victim of rape and war slavery. Never mind that Clytemnestra herself was raped and forced to marry Agamemnon.

Apparently some Alicent stans compared her to Clytemnestra, so I'm not sure they all have enough reading comprehension skills to really say all this. Usually I'm encouraging everyone to read, but here I feel like protecting books from some people. You're right though, of course. As @la-pheacienne said in her post about "where is duty? where is sacrifice?", they sound like Aunt Lydia in The Handmaid's Tale.

[sapphic-theatre-fan]

I’m rereading The Odyssey and I have been reminded that Clytemnestra has done absolutely nothing wrong ever

[idamante]

sometimes i think clytemnestra stans only like their idealized version not the real clytemnestra, they even say that clytemnestra should have killed electra and orestes even though they claim that she did because i come to iphigenia and they say that she was right in avenging her daughter and that she was right blah blah then they start to justify the abuse of her children by saying that agamemnon's seeds deserved it (what according to them was she not the best mother in mythology? what kind of mother abuses or kills her children? why would she mourn a daughter and then kill her children for being agamemnon's? do not they know that iphigenia is also agamemnon's? they die where in some versions iphigenia is reunited with her brother and supports him in the trial

People saying Clytemnestra should've killed her kids are hypocrites. They hate Agamemnon for killing Iphigenia, sacrificing her to Artemis, but because these two siblings go against Clytemnestra suddenly it's OK to kill children? I saw someone who jusfied their hatred towards Electra by saying she was the reason why Freud named a complex after her, meaning she wanted to fuck her dad and hated her mom for killing him before she got that [insert unflattering, incestuous insult of her.] Also, Electra and Orestes were still kids, if not younger than Iphigenia, they don't deserve being abused or plotted to be killed by their mom.

[jessakaldwin]

i have used all of my niche Classics knowledge to present to you this: Which Powerful Woman From The Classical Tragic & Epic Canon Are You?

[beepfuckingbeeprichie]

Some Greek god hot takes and unpopular opinions

Apollo is a Nice Guy™️

The next person I see who writes Dionysus as a drunk and sloppy man who only cares about about partying WILL be catching these hands

We get it, Heracles had a bunch of trials, okay Perseus is the only Greek hero to get a happy ending, yes I know that Orpheus did this and Achilles did that and Theseus was a hero, I’m just so goddamn tired of hearing about it

“But don’t you like Greek tales?” Yeah but I don’t wanna bear the SAME SHIT about some dudebros saving the world or proving some bitch king wrong

“Then who do you want to hear tales about?” PASIPHAE. ARIADNE. ATALANTA. CIRCE. CASSANDRA. MEDEA. ANTIGONE. CLYTEMNESTRA.

Cassandra was so much more than just another lover cursed by Apollo The Nice Guy, she actually played a part in a lot of shit that went down and stubbornly refused to stop trying to warn people about the impending doom even though she knew that because she was cursed, no one would ever believe her

Back to Dionysus for a second— he’s also the patron god of minorities, the LGBT, and the mentally ill, so yeah. He’s underappreciated.

There’s are many versions of the same myths sometimes, the big ones, and yes I’m talking about Hades and Persephone but that’s a whole post

Hermès should be recognized as a trickster god more often

Whenever I hear someone say Hercules when talking in the context of Greek myths I want to Die™️

Why is Icarus referenced so much in pop culture??

There are a lot of modern day Apollo stans that probably exist solely because uncle rick wrote a series about Apollo who are gonna try and come for my blood about this post because Apollo this and that blah blah

[la-pheacienne]

“κλύειν δικαίως μᾶλλον ἢ πρᾶξαι θέλεις”

You wish to be considered righteous

but not to act with justice.

Athena, Eumenides, Aeschylus

Ι don't understand this new leak (it's kind of implied in the trailer) that shows Alicent preparing the coup solely because of Viserys' last words. Like, how could she believe Viserys was talking about his son? And let's suppose she did believe it, because Viserys never talked to her about anything really. What now, the show would have us believe that Alicent didn't have any agency or ambition of her own, she didn't want her own son to be king, she wasn't literally preparing him forcing him his whole life to be king, she didn't deliberately try to maim Rhaenyra's reputation for a whole decade so that her own son would be king? Noo, this idea just spontaneously came to her BECAUSE of a misunderstanding? WTF is this.

Friendly reminder that having multiple POVs is a good thing, and that two characters who are directly opposed could both have valid reasons for their acts, and that's good writing. Sympathising with Alicent, understanding her motives and contextualising her evil, treasonous acts, IS a good thing. What is NOT a good thing, is believing she is actually right in her claims and also depriving her from any agency. This is something that green stans do, and now the show itself does : treating Alicent like a precious doll with no agency. This particular approach also directly contradicts the script of the previous episodes that CLEARLY shows Alicent's ambition and obsession with Rhaenyra's morality and who enters or doesn't enter her vagina.

I will remind the basic facts, again, according to the show. Rhaenyra is the fucking heir to the throne. Her sons are born "out of wedlock" they're not but whatever and they are immediately legitimised by their father Laenor, their grandfather Corlys, and also the fucking King. They have the name Velaryon and they are not bastards. Otto, Alicent, Aegon, Aemond and Larys are traitors and they should be executed for this. This DOES NOT stop you from sympathising with the traitors and contextualising their actions. You can BOTH sympathise AND understand who is right and who is wrong. Medea killed her own children to avenge her asshole husband and she is a monster for that, that didn't stop Euripides from writing an entire tragedy over her character that tries to contextualise and sympathise with her because she had her reasons. Clytemnestra killed her asshole husband for sacrificing her daughter to the gods and she absolutely had valid reasons for that but at the same time she was still an ambitious, self serving selfish bitch who wanted to usurp her husband's power with her lover and killed his sex slave Cassandra in the process who was literally innocent still love her but the facts are facts . Point is, you can sympathize with literally ANYONE, ANYONE has reasons for what they do, and these reasons are worth analysing and layering but that doesn't make their actions RIGHT or JUST. These are two separate things. Alicent and her sons are usurpers, and none of this would have happened if Rhaenyra was a man. People that stan alicent (by "Stan" I mean "believe that Aegon is the rightful heir, Alicent is a saint and Rhaenyra should just disappear") either don't have basic skills to understand the story, are extremely politically conservative OR have a weird fantasy/kink with lesbians destroying men around them (except that she doesn't destroy any man she's only destroying a woman that has done nothing to her) and now the show itself is backing this stupid mentality and I just don't fucking understand it. And yes I'm tagging Alicent Hightower because these are facts, if you don't like to read facts, just scroll.

[kashuan]

Hey, I've been meaning to check with you bc you're like THE Aga stan that I know: are there are novels out there that center on the HoA curse? I know Laura Gill has that Oresteia trilogy I need to get to, and Toibin has a Clytemnestra novel. Anything I'm missing? (Good, bad, doesn't matter.) Thanks!

>_> I wouldn’t recommend the first, she pulled a “not to me, not if it’s you– oh and no homo” SO… I can’t really recommend any books that involve that subject tbh, they’ve all been varying degrees of bad in my experience, which is one of the many reasons it appealed to me as the area I want to focus my energies on putting out (hopefully) Better content. Warrior in Bronze was slightly better but also had a great deal of the usual issues. Maybe someone who follows me could give a rec? 

[julio-claudian-saberface]

I’m suddenly thinking about back when I was blitzing through the Trojan War-related fic on AO3 and kept coming across this one Agamemnon stan in the comments who wanted everyone to know how hard-done-by and misunderstood he was. One time the portrayal of Agamemnon was actually pretty positive, and yet - as if at a loss - they kept banging on with their copypasta. 

“Hey, it’s nice to see a fic where Agamemnon isn’t EVIL.”

“Hey, thanks.”

“And furthermore Clytemnestra is JUST AS BAD and ALL YOUR FAVES ARE ALSO PROBLEMATIC -”

Look, when your problematic fave’s first scene is him threatening and gloating at a worried father, you’ve gotta expect some people are going to have trouble getting past that. 

(Though TBF I agreed with them about that one fic where Achilles was a modern-day war criminal and we were still supposed to see him as a troubled woobie)