#Herdling | Explore Tumblr posts and blogs

imperiuswrecked · 4 months ago

Note

So I was browsing through some of your old posts and one of them mentioned that Namor was r*ped? When did that happen? Would you ever consider writing something that deals with the fallout of that? Hope you're doing well btw

Thank you, I am doing fine, and I hope you are too! CW for Heavy/Dark Themes, Rape, Sexual Assault.

(During the 90s Reed Richards was written out of Fantastic Four comics, and presumed dead by literally everyone in the comic world except for Susan who believed he was still alive. In real world time Reed was gone for years, and this was really unheard of for one of Marvel's important characters because the Fantastic Four were Marvel's big team. So it really looked like Reed wasn't going to come back. I say this to let you know why Reed wasn't around in these comics, and to mention that Susan never cheated on Reed.)

So I was browsing through some of your old posts and one of them mentioned that Namor was r*ped? When did that happen?

Yes, Namor was canonically raped in Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #49-50; Empress Llyra (the shapeshifting half Human/Lemurian woman who poisoned Namora, killed Lady Dorma, and helped Tiger Shark kill Namor's father, and tried killing Namor) shapeshifted into Susan (The Invisible Woman) and raped Namor. The next day Namor finds out that Susan never slept with him and that it was Llyra, he snaps and tries to kill her but is stopped by Susan, and the text is very explicit in saying "There's a word for what she did to me, Susan. Had it been committed against you, would you not feel justified?", and this was confirmed by the writer Glenn Herdling in an interview by Twomorrows Back Issue #91.

Back Issue #91: Namor #50 (May 1994) deals with a touchy subject, as Herdling points out. "My friend Chris Cooper, a former Marvel editor and author of Songs of the Metamythos, recently reminded me that Namor was raped in an issue I wrote. In her attempt to spawn an heir to the throne of Atlantis, Namor's nemesis Llyra seduced him by disguising herself as Sue Richards. Chris asked me if I regretted writing that scene. I told him that I thought it was a powerful story, and if I had to tell it all over again, I wouldn't change a thing. People don't think a strong, virile hero like Namor - who represents the essence of masculinity - could ever be a victim of rape. Namor is a attractive, stalwart individual with a magnetic personality who has always been portrayed as having an insatiable appetite for the fairer sex. When a female adversary takes sexual advantage of such a man, a common reaction is, 'So what?' Sue Richards illustrates this double standard when she demands to know why Namor was in a homicidal rage. Namor retorts, 'If the act had been committed upon you, Susan Richards, it would be called something else.' At the time if I had proposed such a story and the victim had been female, it would have never seen the light of day."

Would you ever consider writing something that deals with the fallout of that?

I have written many scenes that deal with the fallout of Llyra's actions towards Namor, and a have planned a big portion of my fic, Sub-Mariner: Ascension around the 90s and all that happens. Is any of it published on my Ao3 yet? No, but it will be sometime in the future.

Unfortunately I don't have a set date for when I update fics, it depends on my schedule, and my ability/energy to write. I've been struggling a lot with writing lately so I am working on trying to finish my other works before devoting myself back to my Sub-Mariner: Ascension fic as that's really my long time pet project, it's a fic that is more of a novel, or several novels, that chronical Namor's life through the comics but with a more in depth look at his adventures and his character, it's darker at some points than the comics ever go, and deal with a lot of heavy subjects like the above mentioned incident, as well as Namor's time growing up, his time in the war, with each team he's been on, and each loss he's endured. It's supposed to flesh out and connect a lot of threads that the comics never pick up on while including new original elements. I did commission a fanart of for this too, and I hope over time to commission more arts for this story, as well as finish writing it.

I have toyed with several ideas of a stand alone fics that covers what happened to Namor, this time and other instances*, but I was never sure if anyone would be interested in dark fics that has heavy angst/whump as well as dealing with this topic for Namor.

*This also isn't the first time Namor was raped, or sexually assaulted, however it's always played off, never spoken of again, or turned into "well he wanted it".

The first time a shapeshifter seduced and tricked Namor into sexual relations was in The Defenders (1972) #93; The dead Lady Dorma seemingly comes back to life and places a spell/mind control on Namor to do her bidding and attack the surface world. The Defenders figure out something is wrong with Namor and "Dorma" reveals herself as Nebulon, The Celestial Man. He was recurring enemy of The Defenders, and when Namor finds out that "Lady Dorma" was Nebulon he fights him and says, "You have violated my very consciousness, Nebulon -- defiled the memory of the fairest creature I have ever known! You have used me scum -- and The Sub-Mariner is not lightly used!" -- "When I think that I... held you in my arms -- let my lips brush yours... I am sickened."

(So while Herdling thinks he's written this happening to Namor for the first time, it's not, however Herdling does point out in no uncertain terms what it is. Which is a far better writing than what Johnny Storm (The Human Torch) got stuck with. It's actually so interesting that both Namor & Johnny got a story arc about a green skinned shape-shifter Llyra & Lyja who takes on the shape of other women to trick the men into sleeping with or marrying them only for the truth to come out. In fact Namor in these issues even thinks it's Lyja who raped him before figuring out it's Llyra.

While Namor got to say what happened to him was rape, Johnny doesn't. Johnny gets made fun of for Lyja. More about this subject in this post by @/ Traincat) )

Marvel Comics Presents (1988) #58 - Just an issue ago Namor was thinking suicidal thoughts over losing his wife, Marrina, and gets roped into helping some humans. Sandra touches and kisses Namor thinking that him being annoyed by her is just a front for unresolved sexual tension between them, but Namor rebuffs her and tells her that his affections are not so easily won. Later a mysterious old man tells Namor he needs to relax and to appreciate the pleasures life offers him.

Basically the comic dismisses Namor being uncomfortable with a strange woman who came onto him, and tells him he needs to enjoy himself. Nothing romantic happens between Namor & Sandra in later comics.

Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) Annual 3 - Namor is visiting a friend in Tokyo, and the friend's (wife? girlfriend? text just says woman) woman comes to Namor in the middle of the night seeking to sleep with him. He tells her this is improper, and she leaves, she returns more dressed, and seduces Namor again, against his protests, touching, kissing him, before a panel shows Namor giving in. It's later revealed the woman is a cyborg assassin.

The framing of this pretty much shows how uncomfortable Namor is with the whole situation.

Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #36 - The Neried seek to seduce Namor by shifting their forms to look like Lady Dorma & Marrina, his dead wives, but he rejects him, and just like in The Defenders, he is enraged someone would take on the forms of women he loved so deeply and dearly.

The Invaders (1975) Annual 1 - The Shark, knocks Namor out, ties him up, changes his clothing to steal his speedos. While it's played for comedic effect, this isn't the first or last time a villain has tied Namor up, but I make special mention of this because of the fact that at one point while unconscious Namor was stripped naked against his will.

Villains often admire Namor's body, and remark on it. Honestly the amount of times Namor's been tied up, abused, experimented on, etc. happens so many times that it'd need it's own post.

One more I'd like to mention because of the implications is Dark X-Men: The Beginning #1 - Norman wants Namor on his side, and has a talk with Namor while he's in the shower (full comic) and while Namor definitely has the strength to defend himself, this is more of a psychological play by Norman, talking to a person while they are naked is a very vulnerable moment, the hand touch, etc. Norman knows he can't control Namor through brute strength so he positions himself in a way that gives him power over Namor while also offering Namor things he wants, a mention of how he can give Namor a place to belong, with Emma, a home on his team.

As many Namor fans know, Namor does not like to be touched without consent, even if its a tap on the shoulder, and while the comics have often implied it's because Namor is royal, he's arrogant, he doesn't want peasant hands to touch him, etc. honestly I personally just headcanon that after years of people touching him when he doesn't want to be touched he's just put up a wall of arrogance to defend himself from further molestation. It wouldn't be too far fetched to think so because even as a kid he was (physically & verbally abused) by his grandfather (Namor: The First Mutant (2010) #4), beat up by other Atlantean kids, etc. so why would he want people he doesn't trust touching him. He's unclothed a lot, and people think that means it's ok to touch when it's not. Even when it's just a person he knows, he doesn't like it.

Defenders (2001) #7

I know this is a long reply, but it's just a subject that I don't think gets discussed enough tbh. Also to make one final point is bringing this back to what Herdling said in his interview: When a female adversary takes sexual advantage of such a man, a common reaction is, 'So what?'

While I'm not a fan of Herdling's writing, his run on Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) had so many issues with plot, etc. I do think he makes an interesting point in this interview (that took place in 2016? I think) about the double standard male characters face when it comes to Rape, Sexual Assault, and on another note Domestic Abuse, or any time of crime that we typically associate with men doing to women, how there's a general lack of care. It's turned into a joke when a woman abuses a man, or how the man is treated as something less if he doesn't perform masculinity to societies standards. Namor + Masculinity is a topic that could be discussed further, because he is one of the characters that many people think has toxic masculinity but they just haven't read his comics. While Namor definitely has some bad qualities, he's also very confident in himself and his masculinity, so by Herdling not shying away from the subject that "yes, Namor was raped, no I don't regret writing it", it's so interesting. A lot of creators often just shy away from confirming anything or try to defend their choice to have a male character raped/sexually assaulted, or excuse it, or ignore it, or make fun of it, or blame the male character. ESPICALLY when a character is, like Namor, a lover, a flirt, probably promiscuous, they are blamed for what women do to them. One example that drives me so insane is Gambit. I'll put the rest under a cut since it's more graphic than what I've shared so far, and further down I analyze Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #49-50 in more depth.

I think the only male character who's depiction of rape (twice) is actually done differently and not brushed off or treated as a joke is Captain Britain. (Of course there's probably other stories out there with other characters but I'm just going off what I know in the big 2, Marvel & DC comics). You can read this post that goes more into Brian's experiences by @/ Thisiswhatwereupagainst.

CW for Heavy/Dark Themes, Rape, Sexual Assault, Incestuous implications.

If you haven't read X-Men (1991) #171-173, then I'd warn you about how bad the writing is; a student, Foxx, propositions Gambit, comes onto him while he's in the shower, he rejects her. He's blamed for taking advantage of a student (why do characters think the worst of Remy, he's not a bad guy!), then he finds out Foxx is actually Mystique who claims to want to sleep with Remy for the sake of her daughter. He rejects her again, but doesn't tell anyone about it, and when it gets out that it's Mystique then Rogue is mad at Remy for keeping it a secret. The sexual assault isn't ever brought up again and is ignored, but again it was framed as "Remy is a sexual dude, he would be ok with it, besides who cares?" Just because a character is promiscuous doesn't mean they want/deserve something like this to happen to them.

Both Namor and Remy are seen as charming, they get the girls, "so what if they are subject to unwanted attention? They should enjoy it..."

It doesn't help that both Remy & Namor have had moments of queer writing, with Remy & Namor nearly being made Bisexual/Gay, (Namor's was in an AU) but they were barred from being canon lgbtq characters in Marvel by the bosses, even though there are times throughout their 616 comics where you can interpret them as not just cis straight men.

--- At the time if I had proposed such a story and the victim had been female, it would have never seen the light of day."

Nightwing (1996) #93 - Nightwing is raped while in an emotionally compromised state, but if he had been a woman would that issue have seen the light of day?

Wonder Woman (1987) #214 - The Flash (Wally West) is beaten and sexually assaulted by Cheetah.

He's a married man, but Cheetah calls him lover as she beats him, and is about to rape him before she's stopped. If it was reversed would this have been allowed to see the light of day?

Flash brushes off this experience.

I'm not saying that women in comics haven't been raped or assaulted but I'm just pointing to a few examples of how differently male vs female characters are treated, "because it's not acceptable for it to have happened to a woman but it's ok for a man" Herdling basically says.

A more in depth look at Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #48-49.

First off the cover is just Bad. Like really bad, like "What on earth possessed you to make THAT cover?!" The theme of one man with a haram of sexy ladies isn't unheard of, that's not why it's bad though I do side eye it anyways, but the reason it's bad is because of who the women are.

Andromeda - Namor's friend, a proud a fierce Atlantean warrior, the daughter of Attuma, who has Namor's trust and confidence. Namor appointed her as Peacelord, she's basically become the captain of Namor's guard. While Andromeda has/had a crush Namor, nothing ever came of it and Namor never viewed her in a romantic light, only as a friend.

Marrina - Namor's second wife, they were happily married for a short time before Marrina turned into a sea monster, she breifely turns back into herself only to beg Namor to promise to end her life so that she no longer harms anyone else, and Namor honors her wish after she turns back into a sea monster, killing her with a magic sword. It makes sense for her to be on the cover.

Princess Fen - Namor's mother. Yes. His mother. Do I need to say more? Like why the fuck would you put Namor's MOM in a sexy lady Haram group shot with a title card that reads "Haunted by memories of lost love!" we know the writer intended romantic love, not platonic or familial love. Namor & his mom have never had an incestuous relationship ever.

Lady Dorma - Namor's first wife, who was murdered by Empress Llyra. He loved her very much. (I know people will always point out that Dorma was Namor's "cousin" but honestly the comics never state they are blood/close cousins, only a loose term of "cousins", Dorma was a Lady of the Altantean Court, a noble family.) They grew up as friends in court, and she was one of the only people who treated Namor kindly, and he doesn't even realize his true feelings for her until they are both adults. It makes sense for her to be on the cover.

Namorita - Namor's younger cousin. While I know there's people who will point out that Nita had a crush on Namor when she first knew who he was, I will also point out that Nita was like 16 years old, a stupid horny teenager who was raised alone (and probably abused) in the court of Empress Llyra after Llyra poisoned her mother, and Namor was the first person to defend her when she needed it, AND I will also point out her "crush" lasted barely a comic before she found a cute human sailor boy her age to crush on instead. Namor's only ever treated her like a little sister and again not in an incestuous manner. So again, why do we have her in a sexual position here?

Susan Richards - a married woman who long ago told Namor she doesn't love him several times, the Namor/Sue ship was dead in the water, and Namor had moved on from his infatuation, and was married twice. He never had his feelings reciprocated. I understand why she's on the cover but I just don't like it. lol.

The comic promises to dive into Namor's lost romances of the past, but out of all the women featured here the only 2 who loved Namor & he returned their love were Marrina & Dorma. For Andromeda it was a one sided crush on her end, and for Susan it was a unhealthy obsessive infatuation on Namor's end. It really feels like they just wanted to have sexy ladies on the cover and that's why its framed this way. Furthermore Namor is chained to the bed, while his arm is around Lady Dorma, he is staring blankly past everyone.

Namor is haunted by nightmares of losing his mother, of the Witch-Queen Artys-Gran, and of his dead wives.

He awakens and learns he's in a decompression chamber to stablize him. Susan and Namor talk about their lost spouses, and rekindle their friendship. However nothing romantic has happened between them. Later in the comic Namor is in bed, reading a book, at Oracle Inc. the company that he owns and runs, he has personal rooms, and a private pool, because he was living there most of the time, when a mysterious shrouded female figure enters in a short robe.

The comic ends in a cliff hanger, and the next comic it's revealed that it was Susan (Storm) Richards. Or is it?

The cover shows Namor kissing Susan while Johnny, Ben, and Lyja look on in shock and horror. The tagline on the inner splash page reads "Someone's been sleeping in my bed".

Namor and Susan get dressed for the day while discussing what happened last night. Namor feels uneasy but doesn't know why.

Namor goes off to his company for a meeting before going to Hydrobase to speak with Andromeda, and the off to see Nita who gives him some advice about dating, a tux, and flowers. Namor's happy but nervous, however when he gets to Fantastic Four and gives the flowers to Susan, Susan is confused and angrily snaps at Namor for touching her.

Ben punches Namor, everyone thinks Namor is trying to make a sleazy move on Susan for some reason, and while Namor's trying to explain and say it's between him and Susan, still believing that she was with him last night, all four of them battle, in the end Lyja shapeshifts into a monster to join the fight, and Namor seeing her change her form realizes that it wasn't Susan who slept with him last night. Mistakenly he believes that Lyja was the woman who came to him last night and attacks her. However he realizes it's not her, but that it was another shapeshifter. He leaves the Fantastic Four, and they follow.

Phoebe Marrs, an employee who took over running Oracle, and a recurring character from the series (earlier on in the series it was implied that her son's father was her twin brother Desmond, and Desmond died by suicide, however she's been seeing his "ghost") Namor figures out that the "ghost" is real, and it was a shapeshifter, his theory is right and it's revealed that Llyra has been around for ages posing as both Desmond and Phoebe on occasion. Also Llyra (as Phoebe) slept with both Jim Hammond (earlier in the series Jim thought he was sleeping with Phoebe who came onto him, so he was shocked to learn that it was Llyra, so she had raped him as she had Namor), and Leon McKenzie (*sigh* a secret son of Leonard McKenzie/his second wife, who then had a son named Leon, who would be Namor's nephew and works at Oracle, no one cares or remembers him).

At this reveal and the realization that he slept with his most hated enemy, again the woman who has poisoned his cousin Namora, who killed Lady Dorma, and helped kill his father, a woman he despises. A woman who since day 1 has wanted Namor romantically even though he never wanted her in that way. A woman Namor has vowed to kill in revenge for Dorma's death. Llyra raped him because he would have never slept with her if he knew. He snapped, and tries to kill her, and demands to know "why?", and Llyra spits on him as an answer. Namor tries to kill her, but is stopped by Susan. His hurt, his pain, his abuse, his rape is met with a "so what?" "no matter what she did to you, you can't kill her". Namor can't kill his rapist because Susan says he can't. Llyra then says he can't because she is pregnant with his child (She's not, it's Leon's child) and Namor is shocked, he lets her go, calls her a sick woman, Namor chooses not to press charges against Llyra and let's her go.

Then Namor loses it, like he starts laughing manically, and it makes the Fantastic Four uncomfortable so they just leave. Namor doesn't tell the rest of the Fantastic Four that he is sterile (this has since been retconned), and he can't have children, so he doesn't believe Llyra is pregnant with his child.

Later Susan shows up to check up on Namor, and he tells her he wanted to be alone with his shame, and they discuss how they could never be.

Then for some stupid reason Herdling has Susan and Namor kiss. It makes no sense, but Herdling liked the idea of Namor/Sue, but though the writer wanted, he knew he couldn't go further than a kiss. (Back Issue interview) I suppose people could look at it as a "a comfort/pity kiss" but honestly I hate the Namor/Sue ship too much to see it as anything but a writer's ship preference. People point to it to say Susan cheated on Reed by kissing Namor (this is the ONE time this happens) but at this point in the comics Reed is "dead". I hate when people try to say Susan is a cheating slut so it feels so disingenuous to say this was a kiss made of love or lust or whatever, instead of acknowledging that the writer really wanted to get a Namor/Sue kiss in.

Personally I think the issue of what happened to Namor is very overlooked by fans and creators, that Namor is a victim of rape, and how although it is acknowledged in it's moment, people still don't give it the gravitas it deserved, especially for a character like Namor. True this comic didn't brush off or ignore what Llyra did to Namor, but by the end of it, the Namor/Sue kiss, it really does feel like "ok, Namor is a little sad but he's ok once Susan REALLY gave him a kiss" so it does feel like the writer brushed off the effects of his abuse.

What's more, why? why would Namor ever feel comfortable kissing Susan when her likeness was used to hurt him? Why would be ok with any physical touch or sex or kissing when just a day before he was raped? Again, comics do not handle the fall out of rape well at all.

Now with Aaron writing Namor, and underwater politics, and a war for the Atlantean throne, I suppose we'll see if Llyra will ever return to make a play for the throne that she wants so badly, but I won't be surprised if Aaron doesn't ever use Llyra, because then he'd have to actually write about Namor confronting his rapist after Namor left Llyra to die in Fantastic Four Unlimited (1993) #11 (she survived somehow of course, but she hasn't interacted with Namor since.)

Anyways like Namor's canon PTSD, we won't get much depth into heavy subject matter and deeper characterization unless a good writer really wants to write it. And that's the full story of Namor's rape in Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #49-50.

53 notes · View notes