#He does so with Arya/Lyanna and Dany/Rhaegar

[fromtheseventhhell]

Renly had seemed anxious to know if the girl reminded him of anyone, and when Ned had no answer but a shrug, he had seemed disappointed. The maid was Loras Tyrell's sister Margaery, he'd confessed, but there were those who said she looked like Lyanna. "No," Ned had told him, bemused. (Eddard VI, AGOT)

This is literally people in fandom trying to make shallow connections between Lyanna and [X character] and presenting them as equally important as parallels drawn directly in the text. In fact, this coming after Ned tells Arya she reminds him of Lyanna (in looks and behavior) feels like George cementing the importance of their likeness. Other characters might have passing similarities to Lyanna, but Arya's parallels are much more meaningful than that and are being highlighted for a reason.

[throwawayasoiafaccount]

god tywin lannister deserved worse

just remembering elias death and i wanna puke and the way tywin talks about elia and what happened is so damn gross

but rip tommen and myrcella we all know what’s about to happen in the next book :/

the cycle of violence just keeps spinning and damn you tywin for beginning it

(i got a bit crazy in the tags 💀)

[spectrum-color]

So we all know GRRM, like all authors, took a lot of inspo from real life fairy tales, religion, and mythology. There are a ton of parallels but I picked out a few to put in this poll

Propaganda: Before anyone says anything, I know a lot of these are dark spins on the original. I’m not trying to say Littlefinger is a handsome prince or whatever. Also note that some of this is based on either things that haven’t happened yet but are highly likely to happen in Winds/Dream up to and including being confirmed by GRRM.

Arya and Jaqen as Hades and Persephone-the young maiden of spring is found by the lord of the underworld, who gives her an object (in this case a coin) to trick her into being trapped in the world of the dead. When she leaves home, winter comes, but when she returns, so does spring.

Sansa as Rapunzel-a princess locked in a tower by an evil sorceress (or just queen) who is spirited away by a man who wants to marry her. Strong focus on her hair as a symbol of her identity.

The Brotherhood Without Banners as Robin Hood and his Merry Men-a band of outlaws who defend the common people against corrupt authority figures. This one is really self explanatory.

Cersei as the evil queen and Margaery/Sansa/eventually Dany as Snow White-a vain, cruel women terrified of her beauty fading and being replaced by a younger woman who outshines her, so she tries to destroy her perceived rival, ultimately leading to her own downfall. The girls in Snow Whites slot are the popular choices for the identity of the YMBQ and the one Cersei is currently convinced it is.

Jaime and Brienne as Beauty and the Beast-a double subversion. Jaime is handsome and Brienne is ugly, but when they meet she’s brave and kind while he’s selfish and cruel, so it’s the beast who helps the beauty be better.

Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Robert as Helen of Troy, Paris, and Menelaus-a beautiful woman fiercely desired by two powerful men, she either runs off with or is kidnapped by a prince, leading to her (soon to be) husband retaliating by starting a tragic war.

Stannis and Shireen as Agammemon and Iphegenia-a king and commander sacrifices his daughter to the gods to win a war. Bonus if this ends up causing Stannis’ downfall.

Lady Stoneheart as Demeter-a mother wanders the land bringing destruction and misery as she searches for her daughter(s.) When her daughters return to her, spring comes.

Cersei and Jaimes children as the emperor wearing no clothes-the emperor walks around naked insisting that he’s a wearing magic invisible outfit, but everyone is afraid to tell him the truth until finally a child points out that he’s wearing nothing at all. See: everyone pretending not to notice that Cerseis children are the result of incest with her brother, and Ned finally realizing the truth when his 11 year old daughter points out that Joffrey is nothing like Robert.

Bran as the Fisher King-the Fisher King is a character from Arthurian myth. He is the guardian of the magical holy grail, protecting it so it (and power) does not fall into the hands of the unworthy. Notably, he also has a deliberating injury to his legs or groin (depending on the version.) Of course the endgame Bran of the show is a blatant rip-off of Leto II from Children of Dune, but I think the Fisher King sounds more like GRRM would do.

Dany as Moses-a leader who has prophetic visions, who after performing a miracle, frees her people from slavery and leads them on a harsh journey to a new land. Notably regarded as a critically important figure by a monotheistic religion.

[ai-manre]

The older I get the more I realize that the best way to enjoy any books or any piece of media is to do it far away from its rabid fandom. Be it asoiaf or SnK or ATLA, the fandoms have the absolute worst takes from people entirely divorced from the context, the tone, the literal and structural elements of a story. From things the author makes entirely too obvious. Because turns out most people actually have no reading comprehension and rather than try to learn they instead double down on their bad takes.

For example it's clear that GRRM:

- loves Arya, she's his favorite as he's admitted many times. There's a reason Jon or Bran see someone random and think "oh she reminds me of Arya". Arya is one of the most heroic characters in the books (in league with Dany and Jon) and her heroism will definitely lead to a great payoff

- loves House Targaryen. I think House Targ is his thesis of duty vs love, greatness and tragedy all in one. He's written so much of House Targaryen, and "it's got to end, even if it's with fire and blood". Fire is life, cold is the enemy, the dragons are fire and will bring hope. They have already brought hope to characters who know about them (Tyrion, Maester Aemon, Sam, even Jon).

- Dany is the grand hero, she might "pass under a shadow" but she will reach the light. Any lover of fantasy who is a feminist should seriously celebrate this. How often does a fantasy series like this have the chosen one be a female character?? Dany is the big damn hero!

- GRRM loves Tyrion. He's his favorite character to write. Tyrion might right now be going through his dark turn, but he is someone kind and caring at his core, and it will shine through.

- all the setup to Jon's parentage will matter! Lyanna clutching the winter roses even on her deathbed, Rhaegar dying with Lyanna's name on her lips, the Kingsguard saying "Ser Darry is a good man and true but not of the Kingsguard. The Kingsguard does not flee" matters! Jon's crypt dreams of Stark Kings snarling at him, Moqorro's dream of "dragons true and false" and Rhaegar's "a song of ice and fire" were all setup with a conclusion in mind. Not as redirections.

All the literal, structural story elements matter! GRRM's story isn't hidden in obscure use of "white hot knife" in two random instances across 5 books, his story is right in the text, plain to see and follow.

[jackoshadows]

I feel like Robb's decree legitimizing Jon Snow as Jon Stark is in there to remove the issue of bastardy when Jon learns about his Targaryen lineage.

As in, Jon will learn about who his parents really are as Jon Stark, the KITN. And then the angst for him will be about who he is - Stark or Targaryen and not bastard or legitimate.

Jon Snow goes from Ned's bastard at Winterfell to the Lord Commander's steward at the Night's Watch to undercover agent with the Freefolk to defending the Wall in battle to being elected Lord Commander of the NW to most probably Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell and King in the North as per Robb's decree.

He goes from one of the lowest positions to one of the highest. From the illegitimate bastard who didn't even have a home (Catelyn wants him gone as soon as Ned leaves for KL) to Lord of Winterfell and KITN.

I can see him thinking that he has reached that pinnacle - KITN - when he hears about his parentage. Which then throws everything into confusion again making him feel like his life has been based on a lie.

And if he then does embrace his Targaryen side/heritage/father it would be because he wants to and not because of the angst/issues around bastardy or the chance that he could indeed be legitimate.

ADwD Jon Snow has already made peace with his bastardy, shrugging off insults and ignoring the bigots and Robb's decree legitimizing him will be the final piece in resolving that inner pain and angst - particularly when the memory that pains him the most is Robb telling him that he can never be Lord of Winterfell on account of his bastardy.

So that when Jon finally learns the truth, it will center on and revolve around people, around Lyanna, Rhaegar and Ned. About being Targaryen. About having Targaryen family in Dany and being Arya's cousin. And not center around his bastardy.

I feel like we are going to see, in order:

Jon Snow → Jon Stark → Jon Targaryen → Jon Snow

with the series ending with just plain old Jon Snow, both Stark and Targaryen.

[atopvisenyashill]

You said that you don’t like Jonerys, but do you see it happening in the books? Do you see them actually falling in love?

there is nothing about their personalities that has ever lead me to believe they’d be capable of tolerating each other for more than 10 minutes before a slap fight started. nor do i think jon will be amenable to making any more alliances with targaryens after aegon vi dies, especially with the North in such peril due to the others. that + sansa’s distrust of The Great Game & the people who play it + arya spending half her storyline in a city that hated valyria & it’s legacy of slavery + bran telling br he can take his borg hivemind and shove it all leads me to believe that the starks are gonna be petty at best & actively hostile to the iron throne at worst by the time dany lands.

and by the time dany lands…we’ll have the burning in vaes dothrak, which is likely to be a huge moral turning point for her bc as george said, her being unburnt was a once in a lifetime magic event. she’s likely ordering drogon to burn the khals which is so much different - and more villainous! - than just lighting a torch & watching the place go up in flame. we’ll have “to go west you must go east” which is going to involve her sacking a city with the dothraki. we’ll have the battle of fire in meereen & a team up with a greyjoy which just spells disaster. then she lands in westeros with an army made up of dothraki screamers, unsullied slaves, and headed by jorah fucking mormont and a greyjoy. i’m not even sure when she has the time to meet jon let alone get dicked down by him!

(part of my “snowspear is real” trutherism is that i think dany in the show was given like half of aegon vi’s plot. considering arianne is going to meet them at storm’s end, which is a hop, skip, and jump away from dragonstone, it makes way more sense to me that the main targ the starklings would be dealing with is aegon. i also think that jon finding out he’s lyanna & rhaegar’s as he’s dealing with rhaegar’s trueborn son & has completely thrown his lot in with the north is gonna hit way more emotionally than jon finding out he fucked his aunt. george does a lot with romance, this is true, but the main relationships in this series? they’re siblings! they’re parents & children! cersei & robert are haunted by the ghost of lyanna but lyanna has always been a stand in for robert’s love for NED. cat & ned’s relationship is doomed before it even starts by LYANNA and JON, not by a former lover! all three lannister kids wonder how their lives would have turned out if their mother had lived!! it’s about ~these ties that bind us~ it’s about the human heart in conflict with itself! i just don’t see how you pass up two unknown half brothers meeting & clashing & then finding out they’re related in favor of…a very predictable, very boring romance between your fire & ice coded mains).

tldr i still generally feel no bc i’ve never thought they’d get along very well, plus there’s no time, but i’m pretty ready to eat my words on that one and cringe my way through a sex scene between them.

[horizon-verizon]

I initially assumed the insistence on Sara Snow came from the Rhaegar and Lyanna resemblance, but then I found out it was actually about Jonsa resemblance, which makes less sense... ok you have a Stark bastard, but where does Sansa fit into all of this?

A)

The jonsa ship? Sansa stans who ship this seem to hope for Sansa to become Lady of Winterfell and be "compensated" for all her suffering in the bk or the show, and having Jon be married and/o emotionally devoted to her serves to make a moody pretty boy with skills be her commander, a la Daemon for Rhaenyra you might say. This is the priority from what I've seen so far.

It's another illicit or forbidden love as he's her brother and a bastard who her own mother who died for their older brother and them all disliked. It's also, I think, a fuck-you to GRRM's orig plan to have Jon fall for Arya not bc Arya was also his sister and even younger than Sansa, but primarily bec this, to them, places Arya as the "true" Lady of Winterfell.

I'd take a gander to say this is actually the issue and why some might say it's a Jonsa thing. Perhaps they make similar how Sansa's father has a hand in her encountering danger through her planned betrothal to Joffrey (Aerys continually endangering Rhaegar and his his family, Jon maybe in thei minds being the "cause" of Sansa/Rhaegar's family's destruction) or they posit an unwanted marriage parallel of Sansa-Tyrion and Elia-Rhaegar? There might be more, but I can't think of anything else?

B)

When you say "resemblance", do you mean to say Sara Snow x Jacaerys Velaryon as a true thing that happened, or this story of such meant to parallel the couple of Lyanna and Rhaegar? Perhaps it's the element of her also not having any hope to marry and--pursue a longer and enduring relationship due to the political circumstances--an unavailable noble man, like with Lyanna and Rhaegar? That Jace comes from a Targaryen royal lineage and Sara from a Stark one? Or is it that this ship is in close proximity to the Pact of Ice and Fire, which some people espouse had to do with the actual prophecy Aegon I is said to have had and maybe told to Torrhen Stark, the King who Knelt, that got him to surrender, and thus Creagn and Jace agreed to have their childrne marry--thus being some sort of precursor and affirmation of Lyanna-Rhaegar narratively & metaphorically "destined" to shape the history of their society throught their own singular action? That Torrhen might have already known, as others say? Which all, I believe , is an argument meant for Jon being the Prince that was promised?

Bc these latter two "ran off" bec their personalities and personal goals/values didn't jive with the "obligations" both had; those that were like stones set against their own and those around them (Lyanna with her marriage and the entire woman-must-obey thing/her being found out about being the Knight of the Laughing Tree and thus punished vs Rhaegar and the prophecy against the legacy of his house/wanting to build a different Westeros from his crazy father through said prophecy, to "fix" Westeros and/or the world in a way Dany is seemingly supposed to).

Whereas Sara Snow and Jace either don't have such obligations (Sara) or don't have such relationships or regards to their obligations (Jace). Unlike Lyanna Stark, Sara Snow--if she ever even existed. I don't think she ever did, Mushroom is Mushroom and was never there to witness what he said happened--was reported to be a bastard girl, who Cregan, her supposed brother, would never confront anyone about or for if she were to have pursued a relationship for precisely because she was a bastard girl who no one could leverage like Lyanna's father tried to when he betrothed her to Robert Baratheon. Rhaegar had to leave Elia with his father when said madman ordered Elia and their kids to return to KL/the Red Keep while Rhaegar was away; he also had several "engagements" that Jace did not have a like to before the war that Rhaegar was compelled to act on, presumably for the world and not just his own father, wife, etc. Jace was just living with Rhaenyra before the war, anticipating marrying a girl he had been close woth for ages since childhood, and he was barely in his own majority when he died not so late after the war broke out.

Jace's story, unlike Rhaegar, was that he was suspected as a bastard/not his father's son and that the Westerosi stigma against bastards and their character and ability to have loyalty is unsettled by his utter devotion to his family and mother's claim--in other words, he was all in both because of and despite the logic of those rumors, ironic bec of later when Rhaenyra's compelled and unethically chooses to arrest the dragonseeds when her council basically demanded that punishment--in a way, Jace's work was…troubled by this, even with Jeyne Arryn, the Manderlys, and Cregan Stark pulling through later but too late.

In other words, the stakes are too different and the characters are not so similar for Jace to act like Rhaegar or have the room & circumstance to do so. Whether you think Rhaegar was chaotic good, chaotic evil, or just pathetic. This is also not me sayign that Rhaegar wasn't devoted to his family/family's legacy, but that his motivations were layered and has a chance of being more about, again, saving the world. The Pact of Ice and Fire was bt Cregan and Jace also, again, was for their kids to marry, not Jace to marry a Stark bastard girl and disobey his mother at a time when she needed

What exactly are we meant to take away from Jace being with Sara Snow for the narrative apart and what does this contribute or explain exegetically or diegetically apart from it from the pattern of in-world speculation in F&B? Yes they share those that I listed, but they hardly have similar narratives or "points"?

[rise-my-angel]

Because I love salt, what do you find to be the most annoying lines of so-called evidence or foreshadowing for ships you hate? For me it’s hard to pick just one but Jon saying Sansa looked radiant is up there for me because the idea that Jon had a crush on Sansa in the first book or before is so much worse than the thought of them meeting again and then developing feelings (which I still hate, but it’s just not as bad). It’s super normal for people to think their siblings look nice. Arya’s POV chapters also remark that Sansa is beautiful. Ashford theory is annoying because it was originally about the hound and Sansa (also hate this ship but the fans are a million times more tolerable). I also roll my eyes when fans insist that the bride of fire line foreshadows Dany marrying Jon (and I even LIKE that ship but only in an AU in my head where Lyanna is Jon’s mom but Rhaegar is NOT the father)

"Because I love salt"

You have come to the right place as this is an accurate real life photo of me running this blog:

Thats a good one I hate though, multiple siblings and family members in this series all compliment one another. Even characters with bad relationships compliment each other. In the books, Arya recalls that her father calls her pretty, which only Jon ever also called her. Does that mean Ned had romantic feelings for Arya? Or Lyanna for that matter? No of course not. Thinking someone in terms of beauty is zero indicator of attraction in any way.

Also its even funnier with Jonsas because Sansa herself notes that Arya looks just like Jon, and then on multiple occasions notes that she thinks Arya is ugly. So, its even less compelling.

In the show Tyrion compliments Cersei's beauty all the time and we know there is nothing to it. It's reading into something that isn't there beacuse if they ignore the way beauty is used in this series as a common compliment towards other highborns, then its a really simple box to check on really stock symptoms of attraction. (I also dont really enjoy Sansan but it is funny how they just stay in their circle and mind their business like they somehow are winning based on being not fucking annoying alone).

I'm gonna rapid fire for Jon here because pretty much every single ship he has is backed by the worst evidence known to man.

The idea that Jon never thinks about Sansa because he loves her the most is dumb and not how we know Jon works. He holds back what he says not what he thinks. He thinks of Sansa the least because despite being his sister, she treated him like shit because she looks down on him for being a bastard. Jon cares about her, but not anywhere near how he cares about his other siblings who have clearly shown him love and respect.

The worst of Jon and Arya is a very very old outline that grrm scrapped. Its an outline that wasnt used and most of it isnt canon so it is literally a piece of non evidence for a ship that is disgusting. (Both Jonsa and Jonrya make Jons good older brother behavior towards his sisters look predatory and the shippers are all literally too blind to realize it)

Jon and Dany have literally nothing to back that up, because they are staged as moral oppositions to one another, dont know the other exists, and the idea that the motif of ice and fire will be about the coming together of romance is antithetical to everything grrm has established about the themes of his story. They are so far from being a ship that literally the ONLY thing they have to support it is the show and thats an absolute joke (see my every post that got me blocked by jonerys stans for more detail)

Ygritte is a rapist, so I accept literally zero "evidence" on that ones validity.

I also hate the "the actors have chemistry" argument to support really bad ships, because some actors having chemistry doesnt equal good romance, it equals good on screen dynamics in its own unique way. Like Tywin and Arya in season 2 have GREAT chemistry, but I don't need to explain why shipping that is creepy. Catelyn and Jaime have great chemistry, but it doesn't mean anything was actually there which could've worked.

Like shipping is fine, but so many people just INSIST it is canon or meant to be instead of something fun to think about. I joke ship about Stannis and Davos because its fun but I'm not over here arguing that people who don't ship it are "ignoring the text in front of them deliberately".

Also honestly, its really funny to me that you had to specify you'd only like that ship if they weren't related. Big oof on that one. Jonerys stans hate the idea they couldn't be related because they somehow think Dany being his AUNT isn't at all creepy. Like, Dany is related to Jon the way Jon thinks hes related to his MOTHER. There is no capability of romance or attraction there, that's crazy.

People who are biologically related but don't know it, 99% of the time are in fact, still not accidentally attracted to each other because that's biological survival instinct. Anti inbreeding protocol. But they think because DANY was raised to think her families blood superiority driven incest is fine, that somehow means JON would think its fine. Jonsas have no argument for that they just have to pray desperately that Jon would want to fuck his little sister despite how much it makes him look like a predator.

I'm sorry, I hope you have water on hand to wash down all this goddamn salt I just threw at you all at once.

Really, it isn't individual lines that irk me, its the overall tendencies of these ships to put more emphasis on things that don't even exist to justify something they don't even realize WHY people think it's creepy. I don't hate a lot of ships, just...all pro incest ones, and ones that promote predatory/rapist behaviors. Which is why I don't ship much in this series.

We're probably not meant to ship many people in this series if I in any way understand even a modicum of why grrm writes the lack of romance the way he does.

[venusintheblindspots-blog]

DECONSTRUCTIONS of Fantasy Archetypes in ASOIF

So, do y’all remember that one GRRM interview where he talks about Aragon’s tax policy?

The link to the interview is right here : https://www.tolkiensociety.org/2014/04/grrm-asks-what-was-aragorns-tax-policy/

I’ve always interpreted that quote as a critique of the endings that are given to most fantasy heroes, where they save the day, and continue to rule a happy kingdom.

Now, there are many characters in ASOIF that could be linked to the hero archetype,-Dany, Jon, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa, Davos, etc.,(literally almost every POV character is certain type of fantasy hero, or possesses traits of one, although most of them are reconstructions).

But the one character I’ve always linked to that quote, is Robert Baratheon.

Robert’s Rebellion, without the nuance, reads like a Disney fairytale. The young hero (Robert), saving the maiden (Lyanna),from the evil prince (Rhaegar) and his father (Aerys). In a Disney fairytale, Robert and Lyanna would have married, and rule as the King and Queen of a kingdom that adores them. Rhaegar and Aerys would have been disposed of, and most people would celebrate it.

But in ASOIF, that’s not what quite happens.

Romance

Robert and Lyanna were betrothed, yes, but based off of perception of Lyanna from Ned, her brother (and the only POV character who actually knew her), and what we’ve seen of Robert, their marriage would’ve been miserable for her and him ( eventually).

“You never knew Lyanna as I did, Robert,” Ned told him. “You saw her beauty, but not the iron underneath. She would have told you that you have no business in the melee.”

“ Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”

In these two quotes from Ned Stark’s chapters in A Game of Thrones, Lyanna seemingly has no interest in marrying Robert Baratheon, despite the ‘interest’ he has in her.

Who Are Robert’s ‘Villains’ ?

Putting the ‘romance’ in Robert’s story aside, we’ll now focus on his villains : Rhaegar and Aerys Targaryen. Most book readers agree that Aerys, the mad King was not a suitable ruler during the time of Robert’s Rebellion and needed to be gone. But Rhaegar Targaryen has always been a polarizing character within the fandom, and the text.

“I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her.”

“In my dreams, I kill him every night,” Robert admitted. “A thousand deaths will still be less than he deserves.”

“Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.”

“He had failed Prince Rhaegar once. He would not fail his son, not whilst life remained in his body.”

“Rhaegar, who would have been a finer king than any of them.”

“Your brother Rhaegar is still remembered, with great love.”

Now, it is important to note that all of these are opinions from different characters, most of whom didn’t know Rhaegar personally, so there is a lot of bias in some of these quotes. But the quote that stook out to me the most comes from Barristan Selmy :

“It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly.”

Because as readers, we don’t really know him at all. We know of his actions, ( some of which I find truly selfish) and there are a thousand theories as to why he does what he does, but we truly don’t know.

But anyways, let’s get back to Robert because I don’t intend to dissect Rhaegar as yet.

Robert’s Rebellion

I’m going to just do a quick summary. Rhaegar ‘steals’ the woman that Robert is betrothed to, and in result, her brother and father are murdered by his father. His father, Aerys then calls for the heads of her betrothed, Robert Baratheon and her brother, Eddard Stark. After witnessing the deaths of Rickard and Brandon Stark, Jaime Lannister executes the mad King. Robert and Rhaegar face each other on the Trident, Rhaegar dies,- y’all should know this story by now.

Ultimately, Robert killing Rhaegar and saving the realm from the mad King and his son should’ve been a good thing. It should’ve secured peace and safety for everyone in the realm. The main reason most characters (Jaime Lannister) in the books wanted the Mad King gone is because his reign threatens the safety of the innocent people of Kingslanding, and the rest of Westeros. All of these things would have happened if Robert’s Rebellion was a simple fairytale, and Robert himself were a true hero (I sound a little like Sansa here, lol), but he isn’t and now we’re going to explore why.

Those Who Weren’t Protected By Our Hero

Let’s reign in Elia Martell, one of my favorite minor characters in the series.

The majority of the time we hear of Elia, we hear of the tragic ending she and her babies got. There are theories of her being on board with Rhaegar’s ‘plans’, (theories I absolutely do not buy into), or even her being so unsatisfactory of a wife that Rhaegar may have secretly hated her(quite extreme for a character we hardly know). But one thing is for certain : she did her duty as a wife in Westeros. She provided Rhaegar with two healthy children, a boy, Aegon, and a girl, Rhaenys.

“Princess Elia of Dorne pleading for mercy as Rhaegar’s heir was ripped from her breast and murdered before her eyes. ”

“Some said it had been Gregor who’d dashed the skull of the infant prince Aegon Targaryen against a wall, and whispered that afterward he had raped the mother, the Dornish princess Elia, before putting her to the sword. These things were not said in Gregor’s hearing.”

“It was said that Rhaegar’s little girl had cried as they dragged her from beneath her bed to face the swords. The boy had been no more than a babe in arms, yet Lord Tywin’s soldiers had torn him from his mother’s breast and dashed his head against a wall.”

What are Elia, Rhaenys and Aegon if not innocents?

Let’s see what Robert Baratheon has to say on that matter.

“Robert’s hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar’s wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.”

Mind you, this man is talking about a toddler, a newborn and their mother. “I see no babes. Only dragonspawn.”

Robert’s take on Elia Martell and her children is not only cold and heartless, but goes against the ‘hero protecting innocents’ trope.

Robert Baratheon Almost Two Decades After His Rebellion

Now let’s look at the Robert that we meet in A Game Of Thrones.

He’s not the ‘Demon of the Trident’ who saved the realm from chaos, but rather a terrible has-been. I mean, just look at Jon Snow’s reaction to seeing him :

“The king was a great disappointment to Jon. His father had talked of him often: the peerless Robert Baratheon, demon of the Trident, the fiercest warrior of the realm, a giant among princes. Jon saw only a fat man, red-faced under his beard, sweating through his silks. He walked like a man half in his cups.”

He will probably be remembered as a good king for most people in Westeros, but only because of the small council that does the work for him.

“Perhaps we had best wait for Ser Barristan and the king to join us,” Ned suggested.

Renly Baratheon laughed aloud. “If we wait for my brother to grace us with his royal presence, it could be a long sit.”

“Our good King Robert has many cares,” Varys said. “He entrusts some small matters to us, to lighten his load.”

He’s a drunkard who abuses his wife and children and reminisces on a dead girl who had zero interest in him.

“The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”

“The talk is you and the queen had angry words last night.”

The mirth curdled on Robert’s face. “The woman tried to forbid me to fight in the melee. She’s sulking in the castle now, damn her.”

“My son. How could I have made a son like that, Ned?”

“Ned touched her cheek gently. “Has he done this before?”

“Once or twice.” She shied away from his hand. ”

He’s kind of….pathetic.

George R. R. Martin plays with the idea that good people and good intentions do not always equate to good kings, vice versa. He uses a lot of common fantasy tropes and archetypes, but reconstructs them in a realistic way. Robert Baratheon, like most characters in ASOIF plays into the hero archetype, but him being a hero in the story is subjective and highly depends on who is perceiving him.

That’s it for now. I might do more analytical posts for some of my favorite characters but don’t take my word for it.

[eliamartel]

So, I'm way more critical of GRRM than, like, 90 percent of the fandom so I have a very low opinion of how he will handle R/L. I 100 percent think that when he conceived of the story back in the 90s he meant for R/L to be an unambiguous, consensual love story. He once called R 'lovestruck' and a fool in love in a few interviews which lmao. I am not saying this as a R/L shipper, I actually intensely despise both characters. But this is the same man that called the Dani/Drogo wedding night a 'seduction' and included a J*n/Ar*a romance in his original outline. Keep in mind, J*n knew Ar*a while she was literally IN UTERO but people somehow think GRRM will frame R/L as some parable on the dangers of an older man grooming a young girl lol. Do I think that now, in the post-me too era where everyone is super cognizant of issues like age gaps and grooming, etc. he realizes that he needs to 'fix' that relationship? Yes. A big reason I think it's taking him so long to finish the books and why he never will is because a lot of his ideas back in the 90s are now deeply unpalatable to modern audiences. That's kinda what happens when you procrastinate for three decades on finishing a series - social mores change dramatically and now you have to course correct. I just don't think he has the effort, care, or energy to critically reappraise his framing of R and R/L as a couple. I do think prophecy played a part in R's actions, but GRRM also meant for R/L to be in love. Now, do i hope GRRM does not frame it this? Yes. But I have almost zero faith in him lol.

Hi anon, I think you're saying that since Grrm has a warped view of consent because he called Dany/Drogo's first night as seduction (when it's clear it was rape), you think he might not view R/L as problematic and might depict them as a love story because he has also called Rhaegar a love-struck prince before, and paired Jon with Arya in the original outline... I don't agree. Grrm is wrong for what he said about Dany and Drogo, but in the text, though Dany views Drogo positively, their relationship is still depicted as abusive.

I'm just basing my thoughts on what we know from the main series here because I have no idea what Grrm initially intended for them in the 90s.

If Grrm intended this relationship to be consensual and positive, I don't think he would characterise Rhaegar as someone obsessed with siring three children, nor would he give Rhaegar a wife who he reproductively abused for children before he left for Lyanna.

Remember, Rhaegar and Aerys' main purpose in the story is to incite events that bring the end of House Targaryen in Westeros; their actions and their crimes are supposed to spark the rebellion that destroys their dynasty. That's why GRRM has characterised Rhaegar as prophecy mad: he was obsessed with siring three children; he impregnated his chronically ill wife in quick succession and humiliated her in front of the nobles from across the kingdoms at Harrenhal; he knew something had to be done to remove his father from power but chose to make everything worse by disappearing with a Lord Paramount's daughter. He left his family and the realm at the mercy of his mad father for months before reappearing and promptly dying in his first battle.

I don't see Grrm positively depicting such an irresponsible character or giving him any narrative triumph or hero-like treatment just because he contributed sperm that created one of the protagonists. I think GRRM intends for Rhaegar to be glorified through the eyes of some (very flawed) characters, and then later dismantle his romanticised image by exposing his true nature. Alongside Rhaegar's romanticization, Grrm has also written many instances that hint that Rhaegar was not as great a man as his admirers say.

In ASOS, Jorah Mormont tells Dany that "there was no higher honour than to receive your knighthood from the Prince of Dragonstone." To readers, it looks like Rhaegar was an incredibly noble and admirable person; however, that line is a callback to AGOT (Sansa II), where we read that Rhaegar had knighted Gregor Clegane, the man who brutally murdered his wife and children. This shows GRRM didn’t intend to depict Rhaegar as a good man, even when he published AGOT in 1996.

Since Rhaegar's faults are not yet as emphasised in the text compared to his romanticised image, readers may not notice or give importance to them. However, Grrm is not the type of writer to continue glorifying a character whose actions brought so much pain and suffering to others, so I'm certain he will negatively depict Rhaegar in the future.

My take on R/L is this. I think Grrm is only making R/L seem like a love story when what actually happened is much darker. I really can't see how he could have intended for R/L to be unambiguously consensual once Rhaegar is implied to desperately want 3 children and it's implied that he might have raped Elia for conceiving Aegon because he impregnated her when she was on bed rest recovering from the birth of their first child, Rhaenys. It was only after Elia was said to be too weak to give birth to another child that he took Lyanna. He hid Lyanna in a secret tower in the middle of nowhere, and she died giving birth with not even a maester to assist her. It sounds like Rhaegar cared more about her staying hidden and giving birth in secret than about her health.

Also, when Grrm glorifies Rhaegar through the eyes of characters like Jorah, Barristan, Cersei, Kevan Lannister, and Jon Connington, he uses that character's (and the reader's) prejudice regarding misogyny, racism, and ableism to depict Elia. Many of them call Elia unworthy and blame her for Rhaegar cheating on her and for the war. Elia is also sidelined without a voice. I'm pretty sure Grrm characterises Elia like this for now in order to build Rhaegar's image and Rhaelya's 'love'. If Elia was given more space in the backstory, readers would sympathise more with her than with the mirage of noble Rhaegar and his beautiful romance with Lyanna that birthed our hero Jon Snow.

And notice how none of Rhaegar's admirers care about Lyanna either! Some of them romanticise Rhaegar's love for her, but they don't care that he was said to have abducted her and she later died because of it. It's interesting that Rhaegar is romanticised through characters who don't sympathise with the women he harmed. It's only a bunch of randos who personally never knew Rhaegar that are shown to admire him (Dany, too, is only idealising an image of Rhaegar that Viserys and Barristan fed her). I'm certain that in the next book, GRRM will condemn Rhaegar and dismantle his legacy.

[esther-dot]

As pointed out Jon going to war with Ramsey for Arya has similarities with Brandon going to KL for Lyanna. Does that mean Ramsey is Rhaegar(and Aerys)? Starks fighting with Boltons for WF will have some similarities with Robert Rebellion against Aerys. Also Jon Arryn declared his support to Robert and Ned. Which means Robert Arryn could lend support to Sansa in this war. Ramsey threatening Jon has similar vibes with Aerys threatening Ned and Robert.

What do you think?

Oh, I guess the letter and being summoned to die does work as a parallel with Aerys. I’d think the Aerys vibes will mostly be around Dany, and at one point I thought the KotV would join in when the North was gonna defy her for a rebellion callback, but the way LF spoke about the Knights of the Vale paired with Sansa's belief that Royce wouldn't fight for her made me think we would have them involved in reclaiming Winterfell:

Last of all came the Royces, Lord Nestor and Bronze Yohn. The Lord of Runestone stood as tall as the Hound. Though his hair was grey and his face lined, Lord Yohn still looked as though he could break most younger men like twigs in those huge gnarled hands. His seamed and solemn face brought back all of Sansa's memories of his time at Winterfell. She remembered him at table, speaking quietly with her mother. She heard his voice booming off the walls when he rode back from a hunt with a buck behind his saddle. She could see him in the yard, a practice sword in hand, hammering her father to the ground and turning to defeat Ser Rodrik as well. He will know me. How could he not? She considered throwing herself at his feet to beg for his protection. He never fought for Robb, why should he fight for me? The war is finished and Winterfell is fallen. (AFFC, Alayne I)

Petyr arched an eyebrow. "When Robert dies. Our poor brave Sweetrobin is such a sickly boy, it is only a matter of time. When Robert dies, Harry the Heir becomes Lord Harrold, Defender of the Vale and Lord of the Eyrie. Jon Arryn's bannermen will never love me, nor our silly, shaking Robert, but they will love their Young Falcon . . . and when they come together for his wedding, and you come out with your long auburn hair, clad in a maiden's cloak of white and grey with a direwolf emblazoned on the back . . . why, every knight in the Vale will pledge his sword to win you back your birthright. So those are your gifts from me, my sweet Sansa . . . Harry, the Eyrie, and Winterfell. That's worth another kiss now, don't you think?" (AFFC, Alayne II)

I don't think she's marrying Harry, I do think she flees North (the girl in grey), and there's that the prophecy that indicates LF will die in Winterfell, so, I assume LF decides to follow her, and Bronze Yohn might too, but the weather has been emphasized so much it's really hard to see how all this traveling happens! Robyn is really attached to "Alayne," and it would be nice for him to see his mother's murderer receive justice, so maybe all of that does lead North.

It hadn't registered that works as a nod to precanon, but many bloggers have talked about Sansa’s parallels with Ned before, so her winning back Winterfell/being in the North works that way too. That's a fun read on it @please-dot!

[finitefall]

I'm a person who hasn't watched the show and is reading the books but why everyone is saying jon is Rhaegar's son? Like in the books it's not hinted that much right? And I feel this parentage of jon is not so important in books as compared to other things that are going on in books... But it might be just me lol, I can't see jon as a Targaryen, he's more a Stark than anyone (ofc arya too)

That's amazing, don't watch it! ;)

There are definitely things in the show that are not canon in the books, so be careful when you read so-called canon things (especially when people use the asoiaf tag instead of the got tag). However, Jon being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna is considered true by most books readers because of the clues. It's still speculation at this point, you're right, the hints given through the books are collected by readers who thought about it logically: if Ned isn't Jon's biological father, then who is it? And since Jon does look like a Stark and have the traits of a Stark, then who could be his mother? I'll be very honest, I don't have the courage to go through the books and write a meta (sorry nonnie!), but others have done it. You can search R+L=J, you'll find more useful answers than mine.

You don't have to see him as a Targaryen, just because his biological father is Rhaegar doesn't mean he even has the last name like in the show, and it doesn't have to mean anything about who he is as a person, his personality and character traits. There are plenty of people who didn't take after one of their biological parents, thank God for many of us!

It's important for Jon of course, and he's one of the five key players, heavily implied in the magical storyline. D&D threw the fantasy aspect show out of the window in favor of more political drama when it came to the R+L=J revelation, but Jon dealing with his identity combined with his role in the fight against the Others (some say he's Azor Ahai and Dany is Nissa Nissa, for me Dany is Azor Ahai, but in any case, he does have a major role as one of the key players) will be important for the story.

There are a lot of important things going on in the books, you're right. People are talking a lot about this because we think it's an important part too, because we love theories and speculations (especially since that's all we can do while hoping to read The Winds of Winter one day), because the show screwed up so many things that we want to talk even more about how the books will handle things and because there's too many Jonerys foreshadowing to say it won't happen (and since Dany is a popular character in the ASOIAF fandom, everything relating to Jon will also be talked about by Dany stans).

[lives4lovesworld]

Since this was in the Jon tag…The Mad King wasn’t of sound mind when he disinherited Rhaegar’s line. Even if he was, he didn’t know about Jon’s existence, so just as Robb’s Will arguably wouldn’t elevate Jon over Bran (whom Robb thought was dead), the MK’s decision arguably didn’t apply to Jon. Also, Dany allowed her husband to kill Viserys and you can’t inherit from someone you killed. - @stargareed (in the comments)

First of all thank you for proving my point. you were one of these few delightful delusional illiterate jon stans/dany antis I was thinking of when writing my original post;

i) Whenever or not Aerys knew about Jon Snow existence or not (which isn't the argument you think it is), (and as already said) Jon is and remains the unknown bastard of Rhaegar. There is no debate with that fact. Holland Reed and Benjen Stark could come up with some secret "testament" of Rhaegar Targaryen in which he "acknowledges" his son with Lyanna Stark and it would still not make him an acknowledged bastard. Much less a legitimized one that could inherit anything.

Besides acknowledging bastards, they can also be legitimized. This power is reserved to monarchs alone.

-

However, in order to inherit or be installed as an heir, the bastard-born child will first have to be legitimized by a royal decree. - Bastards; Legitimization and Rights of inheritance, A wiki of ice and fire

For Jon to have a claim the iron throne, Rhaegar would have needed to public acknowledge him (make his relation to Lyanna Stark public knowledge as well, and possibly foster him at Dragonstone or in King's Landing or Winterfell) -> then KING AERYS TARGARYEN, SECOND OF HIS NAME would have needed to legitimized him by a royal decree.

So even if Rhaegar had raised him like a trueborn son, he would still not have been legitimized, because Rhaegar was never king.

None of that happened, however, and no vision from Brandon or teary revelation from Benjen or Holland Reed about Rhaegar and Lyanna's tragic love story will compensate for it. And even then it would be unclear whenever or not he would come before a female trueborn daughter.

Moving forward, in which delusional alternative univsere would have Aerys ever legitimized Jon? If he had already made disapproving comments about his first trueborn grandchild, one can only imagine what he would have thought of Jon Snow's existence, or about a hypothetical proposal to legitimize him. Considering that Aerys even talked long before the start of the rebellion to disinherit his 'disloyal son', due to rumors of Rhaegar planning to dethrone him.

Your argument and comparison of Aerys not knowing about Jon’s existence vs. Robb not knowing about Brandon's survival is fallacious and ridiculous; (as said again and again) Jon does NOT automatically have rights unless Aerys explicitly (by legitimizing him by name) says otherwise. And that (AGAIN) only after he had been acknowledged by Rhaegar.

By your logic what purpose does Robb's declare than have (other than disinheriting Sansa Lannister) if a bastard has claims regardless if he legitimized or not?? Why did Jon Snow constantly lament over the fact that (even) as (acknowledged) bastard he has no right to Winterfell?? (x, x, x, x, x, x, x) That even Arya and Sansa came before him.

He legitimized all of his natural children, from the most baseborn to the Great Bastards—the sons and daughters born to him by women of noble birth. Scores of his natural children had never been acknowledged; Aegon's dying declaration meant naught to them. For his acknowledged bastards, however, it meant a great deal. - The Targaryen Kings: Aegon IV, The World of Ice and Fire

If one was to make a comparison, had Aerys been Aegon vi and in his madness and last hours ushered in a royal decree of legitimizing any child Rhaegar could have had, (without any reason to believe his son had any children out of wedlock but let's twist this brezel further for the sake of this ridiculous argument) Jon in this comparison would be one of these "natural children that had never been acknowledged; [...] declaration meant nothing to them" AKA STILL NO CLAIM FOR JON CAUSE NOBODY CAN PROVE HE IS WHO IS SINCE HIS DEAD FATHER NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED HIM PUBLIC.

Argor Rivers, Bryden Rivers, Sierra Seastar, Daemon Blackfyre all were considered potential claimants because they had been acknowledged bastards of highborn Ladies. On the other hand, there is Jeyne Lothson, who was rumored to be a possible bastard but apparently Lord Lucas Lothson had taken her as his own (much like honorable Eddard has taken Jon as his own all their lifes). Yet Jeyne Lothson obvious had no rights, and she was at least rumored to be Aegon's bastard, while no one ever questioned Jon's parentage, and definitely no one ever speculated Rhaegar (of all the people) to be is true father all along.

Stannis Baratheon as last nobleborn man to trace Targaryen blood in his lineage (or some other nobleborn that can prove so as well with his family tree) has more of a claim to the Iron Throne than not-even-rumored bastard Jon Snow.

ii) Aerys being notoriously mad doesn't deminish his validity as king nor his word as you think it does.

[Which, if you would be consistent in your logic and accept that for a bastard to have claims he needs to acknowledged then legitimized which (again) only a king can do, would invalidate a hypothetical known royal declare from Aerys to actually legitimize Jon Snow as well, given that you dismiss Aerys's declare to disinherit Rhaegar's lineage.]

That's not how it works.

Feudalistic ASoIaF is not like our modern word where a jugde or jury or a psychiatrist can declared one of unsound mind and thus removed them from office or take their license or milder the court judgment or undo testaments.

Septon-King Baelor Targaryen had also been anything but well adjusted and had ushered in many nonsensical declares, projects and laws, yet did that make him any less the rightful king or was his word any less the law? No!

iii) "Also, Dany allowed her husband to kill Viserys and you can’t inherit from someone you killed." - @stargareed

Alone for this sentence you have you revealed yourself as a sick, brainharsed, illiterate, lacking basic reading comprehension and common sense, unworthy to even get a resposne in the first place.

a) How often does someone have to explain that sold child bride and glorified sex slave Daenerys Targaryen DID NOT FUCKING "ALLOWED" HER WARMONGERING OWNER/HUSBAND TO MURDER VISERYS FOR BREAKING SACRED DOTHRAKI LAWS.

@rainhadaenerys, @aegontheconquerorwithteats and @brideoffires (an old friend of yours no?) have disassembled such disgusting nonsense a dozen time.

But please, what should have pregant, dainty, 14 year old Daenerys done? Usher a command at Khal Drogo and his warriors to not kill Viserys for breaking sacred Dothraki laws and threatened their prophesied SWMTW and Khal Drogo's son and heir? Physically restrain them? Command slaves Irri, Jhiqui and Doraeh to help her do so? Her blood riders assigned by Khal Drogo as well? Do you think they could have prevented Viserys's death, if they would have even listened to Daenerys? Girls Khal Drogo had enslaved? Doraeh who had been gifted to Daenerys so she might learn how to properly fullfil her duties as sex slave? Enlighten me, how should/could have Daenerys prevented Viserys’s death, once Drogo and his warriors made up his mind?

Daenerys was not even granted this much bodily autonomy that should allow her to prevented her from being gang rape by Khal Drogo's blood riders had he allowed that.

Out of curiosity, by this logic did Sansa "allowed" her betrothal to kill her father as well? Did she lose all claims to Winterfell by that as well? Did Catelyn "allowed" her brother's father-in-law to murder her son? Is Roslin Frey's trueborn child by Edmure Tully not his heir, because the massacre is grandfather's commit known as red wedding?

b) Allowing something to happen like a murder, and actively murdering someone is not the same??! WTF. At most it would make you a complice or failed to render civil courage, if the person had any agency to begin with.

But for the sake of the argument let's argue Daenerys had "allowed" Drogo to kill Viserys. Even go so far and say Daenerys actively "murdered" her brother.

The gold I grant you," the dwarf said, relieved that he was not about to drown in a gout of half-digested eels and sweetmeats, "but the Rock is mine."

"Just so." The magister covered his mouth and belched a mighty belch. "Do you think King Stannis will give it to you? I am told he is a great one for the law. Your brother wears the white cloak, so you are heir by all the laws of Westeros."

"Stannis might well grant me Casterly Rock," said Tyrion, "but for the small matter of regicide and kinslaying. For those he would shorten me by a head, and I am short enough as I stand. - Tyrion I, ADwD

Tyrion, GRRM lil personal self-insert, states in this conversation with Illyiro Mopatis (who agree with him) that even though he has murdered his father Tywin with a crossbow, he still remain his father's lawful heir and heir to Casterly Rock, and muses that Stannis Baratheon, the most law-obsessed man in Westeros, who had maimed even his personal savior Davos for smuggling the food that endured Stannis and his men's own survival, might grant Tyrion his birthright, but admittedly kill him for his patricide and regicide.

So even if Daenerys would have poured the molten gold over Viserys herself, she still would be his heir. She would be condemned as kinslayer (which she isn't) but still be his heir.

Robb’s Will is often lamented as the most disregard royal declare since sansa stans (that make seemingly 80% up of the fandom on all social platforms) refuse to accept that she has been disinherited as it puts an end to all their rIgHtfUl QitN headcanons, but there is one that tops it; King Aerys’s declare to disinherited Rhaegar’s line after his death and appointment of his second son as his heir.

Weiterlesen

[jackoshadows]

Can I just ask because every now and then I see these ‘eww incest’ posts on the tag. If fictional incest is so taboo and wrong, if it’s a line that cannot be crossed, then how can one be okay with a story set in a world where the author has described Alysanne and Jaehaerys as a  ‘great Targaryen love story’? Shouldn’t he be describing that as one of the most disgusting Targaryen love stories given their platonic love for each other as children and siblings clearly turned into romantic and sexual love at some point?

Clearly biology and science and sexual attraction works differently in GRRM’s magical fantasy world.

Why are there love songs being written about Aemon the Dragonknight and Queen Naerys in Westeros? These two are also siblings. Here is Sansa talking about her great love for Joffrey and comparing it to the love between siblings Naerys and Aemon:

I love him, Father, I truly truly do, I love him as much as Queen Naerys loved Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, as much as Jonquil loved Ser Florian. I want to be his queen and have his babies.” - Sansa, AGoT

This is Naerys and Aemon

Naerys loved Prince Aemon the most out of her two brothers, as he knew how to make her laugh. Aemon was also more like Naerys in character, while Prince Aegon was not.

By the way, I made a post the other day about how Jon/Arya is a foil to Joffrey/Sansa and left this one out. Here is another example of  foreshadowing, where Sansa proclaims that her love for Joffrey is the same as that of Naerys for Aemon when in reality Joffrey is an abusive sadist. Meanwhile Aemon and Naerys’ love for each other as children mirror that of Jon and Arya’s and Jon even cosplays as Aemon the dragonknight as a child.

And Arya…he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had…yet she could always make Jon smile. He would give anything to be with her now, to muss up her hair once more and watch her make a face, to hear her finish a sentence with him. - Jon, AGoT

Now, I can understand if one is against fictional incest and do not want to engage in it. That’s totally fine. However, why criticize other readers for engaging with fictional romantic incestual ships that are prevalent in this fictional world? When the author is leading us somewhere and we as readers are only following where the author is taking us, why use real world taboos to call out readers because incest is wrong.

And by the way Arya is a skinny little 9/10 years old in ACoK/ASoS and Gendry is likely 14/15 when he meets her in ACoK.  Jon Snow keeps referring to her as small and skinny, a child he cannot imagine in Ramsay’s bed. And yet we talk about the romantic nature of Arya and Gendry’s interactions because the author has indeed written in the romantic chemistry there between a 9/10 year old and a 14/15 year old. Why is that okay but incest is the line that should not be crossed?

I repeat, pretty much every major ship in this series is problematic by real world standards. Sansa/Sandor shippers (Sansa is 11 when 27 year old Sandor falls for her) calling Rhaegar/Lyanna creepy and Rhaegar a paedophile must be the funniest thing yet in this fandom. How self-unaware does one have to be to not recognize the double standards there?

Also, note to Jonsa shippers. If your reason for taking all the book material and foreshadowing from Jon and Arya’s canonical relationship and handing it over to Sansa is because ‘Jon and Sansa are not close’  then stop using Aemon/Naerys, Alysanne/Jaehaerys etc to justify your crackship. These characters were siblings who grew up loving each other.

And besides, if one has to go for an incestual relationship where both characters are not close, there is always the superior Jon and Daenerys. Jon and Dany, who have actual canonical, textual foreshadowing for meeting and falling in love, actual parallels as leaders, are close in age and maturity, have had sexual partners, who have loved and lost, who look beyond class and gender, have the same interest to help people, are each other’s type etc.

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness…

Jon and Sansa, despite growing up together, are indifferent to each other for a reason. They are polar opposites. Jon can’t spare a single thought of concern for Sansa’s status and whereabouts, Sansa admits to forgetting that Jon exists. Jon disdains girly girls like Sansa and Sansa holds bastards as being less than high born nobles. Jon didn’t give a damn about Sansa over 5 books and vice versa and that’s not going to suddenly change in the last book because Sansa’s beauty is so overpowering or whatever. He is not there to give Sansa her Disney princess endgame and that’s not the story GRRM is writing.

[atopvisenyashill]

why do you infantilize Lyanna like she doesn't know her own mind? she's already a grown woman if we go by the standards of Westeros. you might as well say Daenerys ordering the torture of the daughters is done under duress. or joffrey was just a misguided boy in the end. He's even younger than Lyanna. Ygritte would have slit Jon's throat when they were alone if she really wanted to. same with Arya if she married Ramsay. it's in the text that is what they would do and they parallel Lyanna. don't you think the author was trying to tell us that Rhaegar did not rape Lyanna?

again i say your justification in text does not exist.

everything you are mentioning isn’t even remotely similar to what lyanna went through! joff, dany, robb, they are LEADERS making MILITARY CHOICES that involve killing, torturing, burning crops, sacking cities, and harassing peasantry. lyanna is third born, not in any sort of leadership position, and makes a dumb choice for reasons we don’t have any context for. this is like saying alys harroway is responsible for the shitty decisions maegor makes since she agreed to marry an already married man. i’m also not reiterating the arya point beyond - go reread her chapters. seriously, go reread her riverlands arc and watch her, gendry, and hot pie get their asses handed to them over and over again and then tell me that she would be capable without any magical help of killing ramsey.

and think about what you are you saying here - does this mean ramsey never raped jeyne poole because she didn’t kill him? does this mean rhaella was never raped by aerys, because she didn’t kill him? is daenerys not a rape victim, because in order to cope with the horror that was her life married to drogo, she forced herself to fall in love with him and mourns his death? was naerys not almost literally raped to death by aegon, all because she was too sickly to kill him? in the show, alicent is 15 when she marries viserys - are you saying this was fine actually, because according to westerosi standards she was basically a woman grown? sansa parallels lyanna too - does this mean joffrey never abused her, because she romanticizes him in her head for a while?

also, do you want to know ygritte never actually slits jon’s throat (after losing a fight to him, because sometimes you just lose a fight, a fact you have very pointedly ignored to make this silly point)? it’s because jon is nice to her! he doesn’t, for example, keep her under constant watch in a tower guarded by three of the most elite knights in all of westeros, until she dies of a birthing fever while screaming out for tormund to come save her!! we have like three lines of dialogue from lyanna and not a one is about rhaegar! you are citing a source that does not exist!!

and i am ending with - i do not give a single solitary shit that lyanna was considered a grown adult at 16 by westerosi standards. drogo’s marital rape is acceptable by westerosi standards. robert’s abuse of cersei is acceptable by westerosi standards. what EYE think the author is telling us is that sometimes princes do not have the best interests of their people at heart, and sometimes little girls will romanticize the terrors they experience so they can get through the day. what EYE think is that dany, sansa, and jeyne, all very young girls who are married off to powerful men with no choice, all think of killing themselves to escape their lives. because 14, 15, 16, is the age of a CHILD and not an adult.

[thelustybraavosimaid]

George mentioned in a recent interview that Rhaegar knew of the prophecy, but there is not really much indication that he was "obsessed" with it or that that was the only reason why he did what he did with Lyanna.

It's hard to garner such information when in the official World of Ice and Fire app, it was said that he died whispering Lyanna's name:

Not only that, but George described him as a "love-struck prince" at one point:

At last I was able to ask him the question I had sent for the tombola. I have always been fascinated by how ASOIAF embodies the theories put forward by Acemoglu and Robinson about countries with extractive institutions (which hamper development). So my question was: Why do you think the political institutions in the Seven Kingdoms are so weak? His answer: the Kingdom was unified with dragons, so the Targaryen's flaw was to create an absolute monarchy highly dependent on them, with the small council not designed to be a real check and balance. So, without dragons it took a sneeze, a wildly incompetent and megalomaniac king, a love struck prince, a brutal civil war, a dissolute king that didn't really know what to do with the throne and then chaos. Interesting answer.

[Source]

Ser Barristan said that Rhaegar had a sense of melancholy about him, a sense of doom:

"Perhaps so, Your Grace." Whitebeard paused a moment. "But I am not certain it was in Rhaegar to be happy."

"You make him sound so sour," Dany protested.

"Not sour, no, but...there was a melancholy to Prince Rhaegar, a sense..." The old man hesitated again.

"Say it," she urged. "A sense...?"

"...of doom. He was born in grief, my queen, and that shadow hung over him all his days." (Daenerys IV, ASoS)

...and yet Ned has heard it said that it was Rhaegar himself who named the tower the "tower of joy."

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. (Edward X, AGoT)

This would be in a similar way, I think, to how Arya could always make the oft-described "sullen" Jon smile.

And Arya…he missed her even more than Robb, skinny little thing that she was, all scraped knees and tangled hair and torn clothes, so fierce and willful. Arya never seemed to fit, no more than he had…yet she could always make Jon smile. (Jon III, AGoT)

She got him, in a way that Lyanna probably understood Rhaegar.

Ser Barristan also mentioned that Viserys was the one who was most like the Mad King, not Rhaegar:

"Some truths are hard to hear. Robert was a...a good knight...chivalrous, brave...he spared my life, and the lives of many others...Prince Viserys was only a boy, it would have been years before he was fit to rule, and...forgive me, my queen, but you asked for truth...even as a child, your brother Viserys oft seemed to be his father's son, in ways that Rhaegar never did."

"His father's son?" Dany frowned. "What does that mean?"

The old knight did not blink. "Your father is called 'the Mad King' in Westeros. Has no one ever told you?" (Daenerys VI, ASoS)