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cute-firelight · 2 days ago

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Hiiii!!! I just want to put my two cents and I agree with you, but I have issue with the inclusion of sapphic couples in this comment.

My problem is the unnecessary war that this mess has created.

I am talking about Caitvi here.

Sure, female queer ships are not demonized in that same way nowadays and now with all that fujoshis hatredom bullshit that is around… (I mean how people demonize cis girls that like BL romance), and the backlash Caitvi had in S2 is more about Caitlyn… But they have another set of issues in their reception too and I feel both sapphic and m/m couples suffer from homophobia in fandom, but differently.

F/F tend to suffer from sexualization from male audiences. They don’t like them if they can’t sexualize them.

M/M couples on the other hand are very well liked by some women, in all the ways they can be liked.

This has created that sometimes M/M couples become more popular or more visible in some fandom spaces. Including gay men that also like them, and sometimes sapphics are only liked by: lesbians ooor people that ship no matter the sexes and no matter their own sexuality (let’s call this generalist shippers, I would say I belong to this group).

Caitvi is an official couple at the end of the show and… hasn’t been as well received either if you consider the popularity of other ships in fandom. At least not if you compare it to timebomb… as an official couple they aren’t really as popular. I would dare to say there has been even more fanart and stuff about Jayvik at some moments. Until very recently I have seen Caitvi lifting through the ashes.

The reason Caitvi is not as hated for existing is merely because it’s undeniably official in canon, so people can’t put the denialism card. If they don’t like it then; they just leave or stop engaging. With Jayvik this doesn’t happen because it’s not clearly canon and people feel they can deny their existence.

Why do I say this? Because I have been seeing and debating in fandom before season 2, in season 1 even if it was a bit obvious that Caitvi was endgame or that at least they were romantic, a lot of people also put the denialism card to Caitvi before Season 2 released.

I remember debating with people about how they were just friends and I was like: wtf??? Do you break up with your friends under the rain??? Do you ask them what about us??? All in Caitvi had explicit sexual attraction.

Also, I have seen that a lot of people who don’t understand how fandom works have been recently entering to comment on them (this is why I came to tumblr, I feel that the only people left that understand this is on this site lmao).

The thing is…. You don’t need to be justified to ship people. Even if Jayvik aren’t canon with intention of the creators, people are allowed to ship them or see them as queer coded or queer platonic. Period.

You can make interpretations from the original material even if those things were not intended. Sometimes that sorta thing happens. Something it’s not intended in one way by the writer, but ends up looking like that.

As someone that loved the three pairings of the show (yes for me Jayvik it’s not romantic in canon and official, but has a lot of cool homoerotic tension like GutzxGriffith… So I can’t help but liking the pair, even if my only favorite couple of the show in season 1 was Caitvi, and still stands as a fictional couple I love). It’s very dissatisfying to me to see people involved in this pettiness of comparing couples and more if both of them are queer.

I love and enjoy the three of them.

They show different aspects and outcomes of love. Because yes, it doesn’t matter if Jayvik is romantic or sexual or not. It’s love.

I really wish I could enjoy better Arcane fandom but when people are constantly fighting over either Jayvik or Caitlyn it gets boring and no other topics of the show are discussed. There is also this discussion on how Mel is treated with mysoginy by Jayvik shippers because she was like a disposable girlfriend and I… I don’t know how to feel about that, because in my case I think the show frames that the reason why Mel and Jayce now don’t work even if before they did at some extent. They also weren’t shown as a real couple, they had a situation going on and I don’t think Jayce did this on purpose.

With Stranger things…. I have a bit of gripes with the writers, because I don’t see the series trying to make me doubt about Mike and El before season 4, and that is necessarily for a love triangle to work properly. The endgame couple needs to be challenged more (since season 2 is clear from Will’s side but Mike’s confusion was harder to grasp until season 3 and 4).

I think the triangle would have worked better if Mileven wasn’t so straight forward in the start too. They seemed as this cliche hetero couple and now…. They are a mess. Hopper didn’t like very much how Mike clings to El; but it’s framed as parental jealousy…. So yeah, this one is a love triangle that for some people doesn’t completely look like a love triangle for two reasons.

1 - The first and most obvious is because SOME straight need a lot more proof to feel chemistry between same sex characters than opposite sex characters.

2- The second one, is that usually in love triangles both relationships have cracks and need to be put more next to each other. They did this correctly on the last season… but it should have had more evidence in season 3. S3 focused too much in Mike and El drama, and Mike was basically just ignoring Will a bit. It looked like a teen couple having issues and being unable to solve them due to inexperience and trauma, and not much as Mike and El don’t being really compatible. Season 4 however felt like… they aren’t really compatible and that they are basically just trauma bonded.

I would love if they did Byler canon because the subtle hints are REALLY there. A lot of people have seen them. It would be a cool done subversion, but it being a subversion will be seen as coming out of nowhere by other people if they don’t properly explain it... I think it needed a better explanation EARLIER. This at least would have helped some people that is not used to engage with queer couples to cope a bit. I feel that if Will was a women they would see a love triangle but still… they would dislike this hypothetical girl because they are very attached to the idea of Mileven. (With this I am saying that… besides the homophobia the way they did this couple made people too attached to Mileven and as a result… they hate on Byler more than they usually would).

Still… Of course… everyone can ship Byler no matter if the intention it’s to make them canon or not.

I like the arc they are teasing for El to become more independent and become more independent means stop clinguing to Mike. This is why I honestly like more Byler now.

But I am not sure if they are doing it or not.

I think that if they do it they need to frame El’s arc of independence in a very badass way.

I feel that both of this cases suffer from different writing issues and how the text is made to be able to have two interpretations at once.

A lot of people can’t tolerate their interpretation of the text being questioned and this is what creates the problem for me. Besides of course a subtle unchecked homophobia some people might have.

Another example of this that I have??

Lord of the rings.

Frodo and Sam and other less known examples of the other books.

Frodo and Sam are the perfect example of how audiences mix author intention with audience perception.

Audiences sometimes can interpret different things from the canon material. Sam and Frodo weren’t written as lovers but more as a master and servant. However, they can be interpreted like that with what is stated in the books. At least queer coded or queer platonical.

I feel that people have a hard time understanding the difference between friendship and queer coding. Of course, if someone likes better Jayvik as friends is also fine. This is why I like it’s open and it’s just coded. It’s a shame this makes people argue instead of everyone being free to have their own headcanon or interpretation 💔

Also… a lot of the recent hate of m/m couples shipping lies also in mysoginy because they think we are all cis Herero women…. And people will bash everything we dare to like and enjoy.

a bit of a solemn rant about queer love, implied [on-screen] romance and shipping. pardon the blues, guys.

something i have realised [and found myself heartbroken and deeply enraged over] is that typically a fanbase’s apprehsion towards queer couples on screen — and gay couples specifically, i feel — is genuinely rooted in homophobia.

[and pardon me if this is just the obvious truth or rather a reach. this is just a thought that came to mind recently.]

as a stranger things and arcane connoisseur, i genuinely can’t unsee this now. there is an undeniable parallel between the general reception of byler and jayvik, wherein any mention of either ship is usually met with hostility and calls of delusion.

“it’s platonic love” is something that is often thrown in our faces. as if by entertaining the notion of romantic love we are actively undermining the significance of platonic love. obviously this isn’t the case, especially in the context of two shows for which the theme of love is deeply foundational.

ithink a lot of people are (1) genuinely perturbed by the fact that both byler and jayvik are most likely/have a high possibility of being canon; and (2) feel discomfitted by the notion of two men loving each other as more than just friends.

i really can’t shake the feeling that if, say, either will or viktor were girls, there would not be this much hostility towards either pair. more so, people would probably actually acknowledge the implications of unspoken and even slow-burning romantic love. AND people would also probably acknowledge the existence of a complicated love triangle [viktor, jayce and mel; will, mike and el].

i mean, really — why is queer love ALWAYS seen as a reach? what do you mean “we need to normalise platonic love”? it is normalised! having friends and loving your friends is NOT a wild concept that’s met with insane prejudice and backlash. neither is the concept of straight love. if anything, both are sort of the default.

honestly, if — as a queer person myself — my interpretation and perception of jayvik or byler pair is seen as delusion at best, i’ll genuinely take it. fine, yeah, sure. call me deluded and tell me making nothing out of something. i’m cool with that. because i know i’m not out of line for wanting queer love to be normalised. my fellow shippers [for lack of a better word] and i aren’t deluded or “pushing an agenda” in recognising queer love; in our want to see queer love on-screen; and in our want to see it depicted and represented as mundanely and casually as straight or platonic love.

#My rambling is that this is more complicated that it seems basically #arcane #jayvik #stranger things #byler #queer love #Frodo and Sam #can we talk about this #at the end of the day love is love and all that sappy stuff #arcane and stranger things are massively queer coded

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