#Doug Mesner

[shihkas]

Alison Miller DID NOT have her license revoked

Stop fucking spreading this blatant lie around.

This lie was started by The Satanic Temple, an organization linked with Grey Faction, who routinely denies the existence of DID and inserts themselves into the 80s SRA allegations despite them not even existing at the time (not yet as a recognized institution). Alison Miller had already retired prior to this despite their claims (2). There was no license to be revoked because it no longer existed.

How many times does it need to be stated that The Satanic Temple and Grey Faction are malicious groups that routinely target trauma therapists, survivors and individuals with DID.

For fuck's sake stop using them as sources. Stop citing them. Stop talking about them in a positive light at all. These are terrible people who have said and done terrible (and, frankly, stupid) things and who are clearly not afraid of lying if it fits their narrative.

** I'm not inviting debate on whether or not Miller purports conspiracy theories, if you truly think she believes everything she writes then you REALLY need to take a course on scientific literacy. Writing about survivor beliefs and how to treat them =/= believing they are true.

[queersatanic]

Is it dead-naming to refer to “Lucien Greaves” as “Doug Misicko”?

No, it is not.

Sometimes well-meaning people ask this question sincerely, but in practice, it usually feels like people raise and deploy the specter of dead-naming as a way to distract from all of the other criticisms of The Satanic Temple and its owners that are completely indefensible.

He is not calling himself names like “Greaves” or “Doug Mesner” out of a sincere desire to identify differently than his government name but because he is attempting to make it more difficult to hold him accountable as the owner of a collection of for-profit and tax-exempt corporations he solely or jointly controls totally.

Moreover, we’re still being sued by The Satanic Temple in ̷f̷e̷d̷e̷r̷a̷l̷ ̷c̷o̷u̷r̷t̷ ̷a̷n̷d̷ ̷n̷o̷w̷ King County Superior Court.

TST is also still suing Newsweek and its reporter (but maybe not her anymore!) for writing about us. In addition, the Temple is now suing a TikToker in Texas for talking about our case. Check the pinned post for more.

[sophieinwonderland]

Hold up... can we go back to this?

I know, I already addressed how the Putnam thing was completely irrelevant. I already talked about how one of those lawsuits against Kluft was dismissed, and another is under a gag order with no information about it. And I talked about my own skepticism over retractors who report childhood abuse only to deny it later, due to how easy it is for abuser to get to their victims, which raises red flags for me about a lot of the false memory syndrome lawsuits.

What I haven't touched on yet is the quote about Satanic cults. Because having found the source for that, wow! It's truly incredible the lengths people are going to take the words of a DID expert out of context for their ad hominems.

First, here's the part quoted on the ISSTD Wikipedia page

Does that seem like a lot of really suspicious cuts to anyone? Like it's almost intentionally designed to push a certain narrative?

I have shared my perspectives in many professional settings. I grew up under the shadow of the Holocaust, learning more and more about how many nations, including my own, had failed to acknowledge and/or act responsibly in the face of a genocidal disaster. I discovered how those close to the Holocaust were able to rationalize their denials and/or collaborations. Mine is the generation that heard the FBI strenuously deny the existence of organized crime until the very public 1957 Apalachin meeting of Mafia figures came to widespread attention. Then, my generation watched the FBI do an abrupt and embarrassing about face, reversing its longstanding dismissive position. Mine is the generation that had to deal with Vietnam and the American government’s egregious misrepresentation of the reality of the situation there. Further, my generation witnessed its initial denial of the damage done to the young men who served there, and their frequent misdiagnoses as character disordered or psychotic rather than traumatized. My generation watched the estimated frequency of father-daughter incestuous events soar from 1 case per million in 1975 to 1 of 20 biological father-daughter relationships in 1986, and the estimated incidence of therapist-patient sexual exploitation from rare to embarrassingly common. In addition, my generation witnessed the revelation that prestigious mental health professionals had participated in unethical research on human subjects for covert agencies, research that was very destructive to many subjects. Further, as the findings of the Lanning report were becoming known, I was in contact with FBI agents in connection with another matter. I learned that many agents in the field did not believe that the official reports denying many aspects of SRA were honest or accurate.

Faced with these repetitive betrayals of trust and contradictory perspectives from our federal law enforcement agencies, I like many others, could not be comfortable with “authoritative” statements that denied the reality of many aspects of SRA. Strong statements from sources that had undermined their own credibility simply were not convincing-they were just more information to consider. Those who remembered the many dishonesties and betrayals of trust listed above were less likely to accord immediate credibility to a governmental agency’s reporting that organized SRA does not exist. For those who had become aware of the numerous instances of mistreatment that had been denied, rationalized, minimized and otherwise kept secret, it was very difficult to believe that something evil and covert was a priori preposterous.

I have often stated that the vast majority of SRA reports I encountered were not credible, and explained how I arrived at that opinion. In brief, I demonstrated that if the atrocities and grotesque rituals allegedly witnessed by a geographical cluster of patients who were convinced that they had victimized in transgenerational satanic abuse had actually occurred, the county in which they resided would have been depopulated in just over a decade. Their claims simply could not be true. Further, I have expressed my concern that the importance of SRA reports as a derivative expression of more mundane abuses that, if acknowledged, would threaten the attachment needs of these patients, has been sorely underestimated. Many patients found it more tolerable to believe that their abusive families simply did to them what they had experienced when they were young and were carrying on a religious tradition than to believe that they had been mistreated because their abusers wanted to abuse them. This stance both rationalizes their abuse experiences and at least partially exonerates their abusers. However, that being said, it is undeniable that satanic elements are employed at times by those who wish to exploit the power of such materials for the purposes of intimidation and/or to pursue nefarious purposes. They are encountered in the context of organized satanic religion, in idiosyncratic religious or quasi-religious beliefs, and in deviant individuals and/or splinter groups of practices that themselves normally do not endorse such beliefs or practices. They are experienced as symptoms of psychotic/delusional mental disorders. Satanic elements remain problematic realities in many situations.

Basically, at this point, he's not endorsing a belief in any sort of widespread conspiracy or cults. But there is undeniable truth that there are opportunists who will use the label of Satanism to hurt people. (Look at Doug Mesner for example, even if his takes the form of smear campaigns and SLAPP suits.) Just as there are for any other religion.

He feels the vast majority of these reported cases of SRA aren't real, but that there may be some. And this is something he makes clearer in the following paragraph where the OP's quote came from:

I remain troubled about the matter of transgenerational satanic cults. Any scientist or thinker has had to grapple with how difficult it is to prove that something does not exist. I am comfortable in saying that if such situations exist, they exist at a level of far less frequency than was once suspected. That being said, in the mid-1970s, years before the surge of interest in SRA during the 1980s, I encountered situations that involved reports by non-participant eyewitnesses who were neither dissociative nor traumatized patients. In fact, they were without psychiatric illness. I would be dishonest if I allowed the pressures of those with strong convictions that such groups either do or do not exist to push me to endorse either stance. Holmes cautioned Watson, “It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.” As a corollary, it would be a similar error to follow the model of Procrustes, and cut away facts or stretch or otherwise distort them, discarding them or forcing them to fit a particular model or preconception. I prefer honest uncertainty to false conviction.

All in all, this is a pretty thoughtful and rational take on the whole issue.

SRA is probably rare, but there are some groups who will call themselves Satanists and do abusive things. There are going to be abusive Satanic cults out there in the world because there are abusive cults of every religion.

And being reasonably skeptical of claims from the government is a good thing. Kluft mentions a lot of betrayals of trust from his generation. And those haven't stopped in the time since. A major recent example would be the Iraq war being based on weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist.

Being open-minded and willing to listen to all the facts doesn't make somebody a conspiracy theorist.

(In fact, most conspiracy theorists are incredibly closed-minded.)

What I find increasingly concerning is the Grey Faction and r/systemscringe's consistent lack of moral integrity, and their willingness to continuously take things completely out of context to push their dangerous and ableist agendas.

[satanourunholylord]

Lucien Greaves' (Founder of The Satanic Temple) opinion on Jewish people:

(Antisemitism TW)

(Note: I don't agree with this. However, I want the information to be shared as much as possible so that people can make up their own minds on whether they want to support Greaves/TST or not. I recognise that TST as a group does a lot of good, but I personally can't see past this)

“Like, I think it’s okay to hate Jews if you hate them because they’re Jewish and they wear a stupid fuckin’ frisbie on their head [correct term: yarmulke or kippah] and walk around [and] think their God’s chosen people, but it’s not okay to hate somebody [‘born of Jewish blood’] just because their parents were stupid fuckin’ Jews and wore stupid frisbies on their head and thought the Jews were God’s chosen people […] Not everybody of Jewish blood is okay with me, it depends on if they follow the Jewish, uh… […] Satanic Jews are fine”

[queersatanic]

It's never been confirmed anywhere that we know of, but the name "Greaves" is probably intended as a dig at former International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation (ISSTD) president George B. Greaves. That's a link to the George Greaves entry on the Grey Faction website, with Grey Faction being a continuation of the work of the "False Memory Syndrome Foundation" because that org was one of Doug Misicko's pet causes.

The original fake story for The Satanic Temple was that it was a theistic satanic cult founded by a guy named "Neil Bricke" (sic); that was a reference to a real person named "Neil Brick" who has been behind the Stop Mind-control And Ritual-abuse Today (SMART) group/newsletter.

While TST co-founder and producer Cevin Soling (a.k.a. "Malcolm Jarry") really hated public schools and wanted to use a satanic religious group to gum that up, the other founder Doug Misicko had been feuding with satanic panic figures for years already, back when he was using the pseudonym "Doug Mesner".

So, it would fit the pattern of referencing people that Misicko hated, and "Greaves" has the added benefit of also being a piece of armor, so it sounds almost cartoonishly satanic when taken at face value.

We wrote some more about the early days here.

And however much it matters, even though the "I think it's OK to hate Jews" portion of that Internet radio broadcast is rightfully remembered for being terrible, he said a lot of things that were even worse than that, both in that same broadcast and in others.

When it comes to The Satanic Temple, there's always more and it's always worse.

pertaining to "lucien greaves" (doug mesner) of the satanic temple—clearly the name lucien is derived from lucifer but do we have any idea what the "greaves" means and where it came from?

Lucien Greaves (also known as Douglas Misicko or Doug Mesner) Douglas Alexander Misicko, born August 1975.

Misicko claims to have studied neuroscience with a specialty in false-memory syndrome. There is no such thing as false-memory syndrome. He harrasses survivors, and isn’t interested in the truth of SRA and TBMC.

The Danger Behind the “False Memory” Myth

I don’t know where his name came from.

T.W. Anti Semitism/white supremacist

While we’re on the topic of Lucien Greaves, I’ll post to his anti-semitic rant. He’s a white supremacist and The Satanic Temple should crumble into dust.

“Like, I think it’s okay to hate Jews if you hate them because they’re Jewish and they wear a stupid fuckin’ frisbie on their head [correct term: yarmulke or kippah] and walk around [and] think their God’s chosen people, but it’s not okay to hate somebody [‘born of Jewish blood’] just because their parents were stupid fuckin’ Jews and wore stupid frisbies on their head and thought the Jews were God’s chosen people […] Not everybody of Jewish blood is okay with me, it depends on if they follow the Jewish, uh… […] Satanic Jews are fine,” (Adam, “Doug Mesner [Lucien Greaves/Douglas Misicko] Satanic Temple Anti-Semitic Rant” (transcribed).” Source

Another LINK

Oz

[lord-radish]

I think I'm beyond the point of an organised belief system or more far-out philosophical stance than I used to be, like I toyed with the idea of philosophical satanism for a while but learning about how shit the Satanic Temple and LaVeyan Satanism were really soured me on satanism on any level outside of aesthetic. Like fuck it I'll be a poser and dig satanic imagery while being actively critical of the institutions and foundational texts of the wider satanic/pagan movement. I'll respect the people and their own belief and adherence to an idealised version of that, but my belief in any of it, even as a transgressive counter-cultural movement, is gone.

Like for a while I just discussed satanism as a concept and talked about the tenets and how it can be a tongue-in-cheek reaction to organised religion that reflects and contrasts and is empowering and all that, and then it turns out one of the guys behind The Satanic Temple, Doug Mesicko or Doug Mesner or whatever his fucking name is, had a pro-eugenics website until very recently, chose to platform KKK members for years and is generally a very shitty, antisemitic gloryhog.

Like satanism as it exists today is a hokey novelty that some carnie came up with, and now the leading satanic org in the world take people to court because they have a copywrited version of Baphomet. It's a con, and it took the wind out of my sails, especially as more people championed TST on the grounds of religious freedom despite their consistently terrible track record in winning court cases for civil liberties.

Pro-Satan, pro-666, pro-power to the people, pro-transgression. That shit belongs to everyone. But my stance to any sort of institutionalization of that is that it should be burned to the ground. Nothing good comes from a counter-cultural institution. It's an oxymoron.

[claudia-berdella]

This CD contains the ‘hits’ of an old podcast on Radio Free Satan called The Doug Mesner Show. the CD was initially handed out by Doug at the True Crime Warped Minds tour according to Magister Bill M. of the CoS. The CD contains music, inappropriate prank calls, and a sermon.

[shihkas]

It’s dishonest not to include in your loud and angry defence of Allison Miller that she voluntarily surrendered her license *after* she was investigated by a professional licensing board that found she said she ‘had no reason to doubt the authenticity’ of her patients stories (but she doesn’t believe them, huh?), that her beliefs about abuse and trauma and mental health were unusual and out of step with the field, and that she expressed unfounded certainty about cult activity. The way people who want to die on the hill of this project monarch shit cherry-pick information and leave it out when it’s inconvenient to defending your favorite conspiracy doctors is shameless.

Why are you bold-faced lying in my inbox when the links I cited directly counter your claims?

I'll break it down: we have two parties, The Satanic Temple/Grey Faction (Douglas/Doug Mesner/Doug Misicko/Lucian Greaves), and Alison Miller, countering one another's claims. One of these people aggressively hates Jewish people, and the other describes antisemitic survivor beliefs; it shouldn't surprise you that groups and cults who torture people probably don't have the greatest morals and probably pass on some pretty awful beliefs to those they abuse.

From Alison Miller:

“The reason I discontinued my membership in the College of Psychologists has nothing to do with the Grey Faction’s harassing complaint about my writings and online videos. I left the College because I am 78 years old. I retired two years ago.”

“When Evan Anderson [director of Grey Faction] complained about my work, the College asked [not investigated] me about my professional activities since retirement, and let me know that (a) I did not have to remain a member after retirement as long as another member knew the location of my clinical records, and (b) speaking and writing were considered to be providing psychological services, which was forbidden to non-practicing members—but if I discontinued membership, my speaking and writing activities would no longer be the concern of the licensing body. It became evident to me that I no longer needed to maintain this unnecessary membership which now prohibited me from speaking and writing, so I resigned from the College.”

So to be clear what happened was the College told her "just so you know, you can't provide psychological services because you're retired, but you can also just revoke your membership." It literally had nothing to do with Grey Faction's claims. They (the College) just didn't know she was offering "psychological services" (...speaking and writing) until Grey Faction brought it to their attention. Keep in mind once again Grey Faction exists entirely to deny the existence of ritual abuse and target therapists and survivors.

And nowhere did I bring up Project Monarch what the fuck are you talking about? I think you're jumping to conclusions that I'm one of those fucking "RAMCOA Minecraft script" believer people.

Ritual abuse is relatively common in the global south and so-called third world countries. As someone who is an immigrant and as someone whose Entire family has been DIRECTLY affected by ritual abuse for multiple generations I would Really appreciate not being lumped with 15 year olds who just want to be special.

To be clear I also don't think RA, MC, or OA are "the worst types of abuse", that's how we got here in the first place. There is no "worst type of abuse". There are just DIFFERENT types of abuse. It's not good for trauma recovery to fixate on what's "worse" or "better".

I'm putting the rest of this under a read more as I want to cite sources and provide evidence of how ritual abuse isn't actually as outlandish as people make it sound. Upsetting descriptions of CSA and ritual abuse as well as cited examples are below the cut so tread carefully.

First of all let's define "ritual," here is the Cambridge dictionary definition of the word "ritual":

"a way of doing something in which the same actions are done in the same way every time [...] a fixed set of actions and words, especially as part of a religious ceremony."

In this context, "religious ceremony" can also be understood as expressing devotion to an ideology (which is also exactly what religious ceremonies are anyways.)

Examples of common "rituals" (also referred to as a schedule, routine, etc., see synonyms below):

Having a specific "morning" or "evening" routine, especially if you do them in a set order

Having set meal times, especially in the context of a family's routine (even more so if it is important for the family to say grace prior to eating, or similar habits)

Having tea at a specific time every day

Examples of common abusive "ritual practices":

Hazing rituals, which have been documented in fraternities and sports teams

Gang initiations, especially if violent

Military initiations (sanctioned and unsanctioned)

(some of) Merriam-Webster's synonyms for the word "ritual":

habit

custom

practice

routine

pattern

regimen

Let's define "ritual abuse", and I won't use Miller's description just for this argument specifically. Here is the article I am citing. This is a research article. This article is impartial to the belief and disbelief of ritual abuse because you are Supposed to be as impartial as possible when you are writing research papers. The writers of this article are simply presenting their findings.

First, here's a definition of organized abuse, as ritual abuse falls under the umbrella, also keep in mind I said "a definition" and not "THE definition" as organized sexual abuse is not the only type of organized abuse (labour trafficking, etc.):

Sexual child abuse involving a network of perpetrators acting repeatedly and jointly on multiple victims is defined as ‘organized abuse’

And here is their definition of ritual abuse:

Organized abuse that follows a (pseudo-) ideological strategy (e.g., symbols or group activities with religious, magical, or supernatural connotations) in order to frighten and intimidate the children or to force the victims to participate whilst simultaneously accomplishing the perpetrators’ exculpation is referred to as ‘ritual abuse’

When they say "...magical or supernatural connotations" they are not saying that these groups are Literally magical or supernatural in nature. They are relaying information from the individuals surveyed, where some stated that their abuser groups aligned themselves with magical or supernatural elements.

What they are basically saying is that these organized groups pervert ideology (religion, spirituality, etc.) to scare group members. For example: "if you don't do this the devil is gonna get you," which sounds ridiculous to you and I because we're adults, but a five year old isn't going to know any better.

So now let's talk about a well-known example of ritual child abuse that happened in America, the Waco siege and the Branch Davidian cult:

(the following is from "The Boy Who was Raised as a Dog" by child psychiatrist Bruce D. Perry)

Inside the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, children lived in a world of fear. Even babies weren’t immune: cult leader David Koresh believed that the wills of infants—some just eight months old—needed to be broken with strict physical discipline if they were to stay “in the light.”

And he was a god who ruled by fear. Children (and sometimes even adults) were in constant fear of the physical attacks and public humiliation that could result from the tiniest error, like spilling milk. Punishment often involved being beaten bloody with a wooden paddle called “the helper.” Davidian children also feared hunger: those who “misbehaved” could be deprived of food for days or put on a bland diet of only potatoes or bread. Sometimes, they would be isolated overnight.

And, for the girls, there was knowledge that they would ultimately become a “Bride of David.” In a unique form of sanctioned sexual abuse girls as young as ten were groomed to become Koresh’s sexual partners. A former member said Koresh once excitedly compared the heartbeats of the prepubescent girls he violated to those of hunted animals.

Throughout the rest of this chapter in this book, Perry, who worked closely with these children, describes in even more explicit and upsetting detail the trauma these children and infants were put through. This isn't a fucking conspiracy theory, this actually happened. Some of these children are still alive today. This is what ritual abuse Actually Is.

Do not come back in my inbox and tell me this is fake or I am misconstruing ritual abuse. You are the one who has been lead to misbelieve that ritual abuse = men in black robes belonging to worldwide satanic cults decapitating babies en masse and chanting over their bodies while surrounded by candles (which, by the way, that kind of murder and maiming of children, including infants, in this fashion does, very tragically, actually happen in war and conflict.)

[h2ohnotagain]

I *almost* gave them money years and years ago, then took a second look at the rightwing asshat attorney they were using. Their reasoning on why they went that route sounded specious, and I held off until I could do more research. Turns out that was the right call.

[queersatanic]

"Lucien Greaves" and The Satanic Temple have a lot to answer for

When confronted with examples of Doug “Lucien Greaves” Misicko’s pattern of reactionary words and actions over the past two decades, usually, The Satanic Temple’s sycophants offer one of a small handful of stock excuses to deflect and otherwise resist actually dealing with it.

Their most recent tack has been “Lucien Greaves has changed! Actually, ‘The Satanic Temple is a church for imperfect people‘, which is why our religion is great!”— an excuse that exceeds parody but more seriously points to the dangers of what is now required of TSTers by way of loyalty.

And yet as we have said, “When it comes to The Satanic Temple, there’s always more and it’s always worse.”

Starting February 26, the admin(s) behind The.Satanic.Wiki began releasing more clips on Twitter and Kolektiva from audio and corrected transcripts of old Internet radio shows The Satanic Temple’s co-owner Doug Misicko used to make with his friend and longtime collaborator Shane Bugbee, primarily from the incomplete audio of a show called The ABCs of the Alphabet.

This was back when Misicko was using the pseudonym “Doug Mesner” rather than “Lucien Greaves” as he mostly does now.

These conversations—intended for public consumption!—are incredibly bad, but of course all context added to them makes them even worse.

We’ve censored the slurs below, but in the actual audio clips, they are presented as they were said at the time: in full and without obfuscation or shame.

Jump-to links:

“Lucien Greaves” wants to write a “[ableist r-slur] story”

“Lucien Greaves” on the Oklahoma City Bombing and the bad PR of killing children

“Lucien Greaves” talks about “The View” (TV show) and network [n-slurs]

“Lucien Greaves” on Black co-workers and cunnilingus

“Lucien Greaves” talks about the KKK and killing [Jewish people]

“Lucien Greaves” talks eugenics and “who decides”

“Lucien Greaves” on “N-words”

“Lucien Greaves” makes his case for fascism

“Lucien Greaves” really hates Detroit

The Satanic Temple’s co-owner “Lucien Greaves” on public displays of religion like Judaism and Islam

“Lucien Greaves” recalls his pilgrimage to fascist Italy

“Lucien Greaves” talks about arson and high school bullying as Nazi national anthem plays

“Lucien Greaves” on burning down churches (and temples) plus why we should nuke the “Holy Land”

“Lucien Greaves” and the OfficeMax gay Hindu organ harvester “prank call” story

“Lucien Greaves” on domestic abuse (he blames the victims)

“Lucien Greaves” explains the (true) importance of abortion access: “It’s not so much about dead babies as less people”

The titles The Satanic Wiki gave them are fairly short, and it’s often difficult to describe fully all of what makes them terrible. For example, while Misicko is talking about arson and high school bullying, Bugbee plays the Nazi anthem along under Misicko’s story; how do you best emphasize and summarize that?

In any case, if you still have friends who are supportive or otherwise ignorant of The Satanic Temple, and they don’t want to read a long article about it, any of the below clips should encapsulate quickly why these people are not to be trusted.

(For those not up to date, while these clips are from 2003-2004, the issue is that Misicko and Bugbee were close up through 2013 when Misicko tapped Bugbee to help re-launch TST after the first attempt failed, and their leaked emails and gravestone-teabagging stunt together demonstrate how little change had actually happened in that decade. More of that history here.)

[sophieinwonderland]

Hi!

First: Lucien Greaves sucks, fuck him and all DID/plurality denialists.

That established, why do you not only insist on exclusively using his given name (Doug Mesner), but also accompany your valid criticism with mocking his chosen name?

Is it because Lucien Greaves is not a "normal" name? Do you deem a name he chose for himself not his "real" name? Are you against him having two names?

Aside from the fact that it's pointless to criticize him for something harmless when you can (and do) criticize him for the actual harm he does, all of these potential justifications for it cause collateral damage by throwing other totally innocent people under the bus (namely trans people and people from cultures whose traditions around names are different from yours).

I don't see these as comparable.

As I understand, Lucien Greaves isn't his chosen name. Or, to be more exact, Lucien Greaves is a stage name. A pseudonym. Like how Dwayne Johnson might call himself The Rock. In his personal life, Doug is Doug and always has been. Lucien Greaves is a name he uses specifically to protect him from social repercussions for his actions. (He's basically said as much.)

Doug wants a persona to be able to troll and toss SLAPP suits at people and ruin their lives. He wants to profit off of the suffering he causes, and still be able to go back home as Doug.

From what I've found, his actual name might actually be Doug Misicko and Doug Mesner is yet another pseudonym. Which, yeah, Mesner sounds like something he would choose too. But I'm not totally sure due to misinformation flying around about him. Or maybe disinformation to muddy the waters and further obfuscate his history.

And the specific name "Lucien Greaves," like everything else, is one intended to provoke a reaction. It's meant to sound like a movie villain. A pathetic man trying to make himself appear bigger and grow his reputation. Lucien Greaves is not a name, it's a trademarked brand owned by the United Federation of Churches LLC and a shield designed to protect him from those he harms.

[unwelcome-ozian]

Hey! I was reading the post about Doug Mesner and how you mentioned “the satanic temple should crumble to dust”. I’m an SRA survivor and I’ve met some folks who belong to TST and have really lovely values. I struggle with reading through all the articles on Lucien that I’ve come across and the resources explaining safety and TST. I was wondering if you could clarify why TST is bad? Can people be s*tanists and still be safe?

A vast majority of people who are satanists don’t abuse people and would abhor abuse done in the name of their belief system. This applies to people who belong to the TST as well.

One issue I think you should be aware of as a survivor of SRA is Lucien Greaves runs a site where he denies SRA occurs. It’s called Grey Faction and he activly harrasses survivors.

Former members of The Satanic Temple

Orgies, Harassment, Fraud: Satanic Temple Rocked by Accusations, Lawsuit

Doug Mesner/Lucien Greaves: the huckster behind the Harvard Black Mass and similar shams

Oz

[queersatanic]

Yeah, but the co-owner of The Satanic Temple is Cevin Soling, a secular but Zionist ethnic Jewish person who gave an interview to the Times of Israel (as "Malcolm Jarry") calling criticism of the Israeli military equivalent to blood libel antisemitism, and who also started a nonprofit to target pro-Palestinian student groups.

And the Church of Satan probably won't be much better because the official line under the justification of "pragmatism" is effectively just boot-licking and power worship.

Putting it below the cut, and this is back in 2003, but TST's other owner Doug Misicko ("Doug Mesner", "Lucien Greaves") and the Church of Satan's Grand Magus Peter Gilmore had this exchange as part of Misicko and Shane Bugbee's 24-hour "Might Is Right" Internet radio stream starting 21:19:01.

(Shane Bugbee's wife Amy was also there as co-host, and note that the Bugbees frequently espouse white nationalist talking points, so factor that in).

While Satanism should side with the marginalized and embody the eternal rebel, and should find in its principles the justification to oppose genocide and the harming of children, the Satanic organizations you're specifically referencing are — if anything — explicitly pro-Israel.

Doug Misicko: What did you feel about the "cleanup work" that some of the academics tried to do immediately thereafter, claiming that that was not the face of the true Islam?

Peter Gilmore: Well, again, Islam does have a whole group and range of sects. But when you look at the early history of Islam, they were very hostile to anybody who didn't believe as they did, much as the Christians were. It took a long time for Christianity to be placed in a position where they didn't have the unity with governmental powers that could exercise conversion or death. So in time, Islam over the world may reach a point where it's not linked with governments with weapons, or with members that can get ahold of weapons that can destroy people. I mean as we- the situation in Israel is a very— one to think about, because there's a relatively small group of suicidal individuals are slaughtering people, by the day with with bombing runs, they're not afraid to die, they think they're getting some kind of illusory heavenly reward. And those people are absolutely dangerous.

Amy Bugbee: But do you really feel that's the case? I mean, you know, these people have had- the Palestinians have had everything they own taken from them, they've been forced to move into refugee camps, and the Israelis still come in with tanks and blow them up. And every time there is a suicide bombing, these people are flying their choppers over and bombing refugee camps, which seems to be an oxymoron of the whole idea of a refugee camp. I mean, these people are desperate people, they have no weapons, they have nothing. What choice do they have? I think if I were in that situation, I might strap a bomb to myself too.

Peter Gilmore: Oh, you might but then you're dead. Do you have no more life to live. And the whole point is...

Amy Bugbee: But they don't have a life now. I mean, they've had they've lost it all.

Peter Gilmore: They could find- I think they might find ways to have a different kind of life than than what they expected. We have to always adapt. Remember, we're talking about Might is Right as our basic issue here for this day. And the book, that's just out, that we want to remind people buy the book. Umm...

Amy Bugbee: (laughing) Thank you.

Peter Gilmore: If you basically are attacking a power that has more might than you do, then you can only expect to be slaughtered. So going in there and blowing up Israelis is going to have reprisals, just like blowing up buildings in this nation had reprisals for the nations that harbor those people, you really have to keep aware of who has the power in the situation. And one, you can't be idealistic. You can't say I want my life to always be the way it is that not may not be possible, you have to adapt and find a life that's going to be as as satisfying for you as it can be, but it may not necessarily be an ideal that you have. You have to be pragmatic about it. I don't think they're being pragmatic.

Amy Bugbee: But that's like- What about like the Revolutionary War and the Americans against the British. I mean, people would say that, would have said the same thing. I'm sure people in Britain, were saying that about the silly Americans.

Peter Gilmore: Yeah, but America had the power to pull it off, and did. And that's might again made right, they had the money. They didn't they they had help from France. And, again, it's all a matter of power and balances of power. The Palestinians could have the right kind of allies, they wouldn't have to be committing suicide all the time.

Doug Misicko: I think Might is Right could be taken either way, in that case. You could say, Israel has the upper hand, they should be able to take the upper hand, they should be able to expand their borders, if they've got the might, it makes right. But also you could say that if the Palestinians can display any type of might, and they're feeling that they're oppressed, they should do whatever they can.

Peter Gilmore: Well, the thing is, everybody will, that's always what happens, you know, might is right isn't something that you have to try to promote. It's what it's how things work. It's simply a definition of a reality, so that everyone will struggle for what they want, whether it's idealistic, or pragmatic, and whoever wields the most power will eventually win and rewrite the history so that they look like they were doing the right thing all along, depending on their audience.

Doug Misicko: That's I agree. And I think Might Is Right basically says how it is not how it should be or how we will make it that's the way it is.

Peter Gilmore: Exactly. It's reality. It's not ideals.

Doug Misicko: It's a philosophy of realism.

Peter Gilmore: Mmhmm. Precisely.

I’ll say it, satanists for Palestinian should be a given.

Tenent 2 of the satanic temple

“The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.”

The 9th rule of the church of Satan

“Do not harm little children”

The 6th rule of the church of Satan

“Do not take that which does not belong to you unless it is a burden to the other person and he cries out to be relieved”

[greatamericansatan]

If You Hail Satan, Come Correct

Woof.  I wanted to like The Satanic Temple and Lucien Greaves, but I randomly came across the real scoop on what low-down fash-friendly piles of shit they really are.  Representing myself as satanic, I feel the need to address this, and while I’m at it, help fix some of the harm they are doing in the world.

To start with, I need to make clear that I do not believe every member of TST is fascist or a scumbag.  Some just haven’t gotten the facts yet, and some who have feel too invested to acknowledge the truth.  To those of you who are good people, I hope you work things out.

But I also hope you can realize you don’t need TST and can represent Satan in your own ways.  There is absolutely nothing stopping you from walking away from TST en masse and starting your own Satanism.  Maybe it starts small, a facebook group or a twitter account, but it can turn into something just as big and certainly better.

Eugenics and Nazi Friendliness

I was ill-informed and had little idea that modern satanists were so cozy with antisemitism and nazism until I fell down this unfortunate rabbit hole.  What in the name of Hell is the point of rejecting Christ only to wallow in the shit ideals of his worst fanboys?

Lucien Greaves has made some half-assed apologies for antisemitic comments made on a radio show in 2003 as that came to light recently, and in the narrow context of that clip one could think of his comments as being more antitheist than antisemitic – he was saying jewish religious belief is his problem and jewish blood is not, in disagreement with the hosts of the radio show he was on.

But broaden that context just a little bit more, and things look much worse.  Why did he not rebuke the whole proceedings when his pals on the show went full sieg heil?  Why didn’t he bail?  Because he knew they were nazis going in, and he was OK with that.

The show itself was the “Might Is Right 24-Hour Radio Special” in honor of a new printing of racist / antisemitic book “Might is Right” – and Greaves (as “Doug Mesner”) was invited because he illustrated the book. Whatever terms or qualifiers he’s used for it (he had a site called “dysgenics” as late as 2018), Greaves has wholeheartedly endorsed eugenics on many occasions.  As recently as the founding of The Satanic Temple ten years after his appearance on that show, he was willingly associating with and involving the sieg heiling host of that very broadcast.

(Quick aside – the event hosts may or may not have identified as nazis and they didn’t actually say “sieg heil” but I don’t give an earthly shit about distinguishing between flavors of antisemite and the finer points of their ideologies.  Another guest on the show was prominent KKK figure Tom Metzger – in a segment of the show Greaves (Doug Misicko in the transcript) happily participated in.  Y’all are nazis; eat shit and die at your soonest convenience, thanks.)

Anyone who would oppose the hypocrisies and injustices of cultural christianity has to decide for theirself what they will propose in the wake of christianity’s defeat.  Because you’re not going to defeat xtianity at large, of course (only they can do that to themselves lol), but you are going to win some hearts and minds away from the pews and pulpits.  What are you giving them in exchange for what they’ve given up?

For some opposing xtianity is enough, like dictionary atheists who are iconoclasts without a care.  LaVey was in the pitiful thrall of Ayn Rand and his satanic bible owes its soul to her “objectivism.”  His Church of Satan and the satanic movement generally from that point on carried those values of cruelty and greed forward.  This was the movement from which Greaves emerged, only differing in that he was more fully atheistic than his predecessors.  Or maybe just more ableist.  From what I’ve seen, ableism was always his biggest hobbyhorse.

OK, greed as a value does seem to oppose the charity spoken of by Jesus, so satanic, right?  Wrong.  If we were just going to oppose xtianity as described in the bible, maybe.  But I don’t give a fuck about that.  I want to oppose xtianity as it is practiced in my culture, and all the harm it does – most of which is fueled by greed.  If you’re not doing that – fighting for the ability of people to enjoy life, fighting oppression – what’s the fucking point?

In their stances on gay rights and reproductive rights and religious freedom, The Satanic Temple has lured in thousands of progressive people – taken their time and money.  But was this truly deserved?  The organization is rotten at its core for the same reason the gnu atheist movement was: the founders centered ableism, the ability to feel superior to the “stupid” xtians, which is just about the quickest path to eugenics and nazism.

To this day, there are high ups within TST that have a history of consorting with nazi clowns like Mike Cernovich and Milo Yiannapolis.   TST have gone on record as being anti-antifa, and you know what you get when those antis zero out.

Reproductive Rights People Hate Them

Just because anti-abortion scumbags have had a great deal of success lately does not mean that the defenders of reproductive health have been failing at their jobs, only that fascists have been achieving horrific victories across the board.  But The Satanic Temple has opted to use that messaging to suck up activist dollars – to claim “We must accept the fact that traditional efforts to protect reproductive rights have failed.”

And what are they doing with the pro-abortion activist dollars?   They’re acting like $cientology in the way they veer between saying they’re a religion and denying that depending on what’s most advantageous in a given financial or legal situation, and not being at all transparent about where the money goes.

SLAPP Suit

All these issues and more led some Satanists in my part of the country to rebel, to make public critique of the organization.  The law protects criticism of religious organizations, but they’re still suing for business harm – a business when it suits them, a religion when it doesn’t.  The apostates are just regular people facing tens of thousands of dollars in legal expenses they can’t afford.  It’s a SLAPP suit working as intended, and you can see why I might find that something worth fighting against.

Support the Queer Satanic Apostasy.  Help defend them against the SLAPP suit.

–

[lord-radish]

So last year I had a brief fling with satanism. Not like ritual murder or any of the Satanic Panic talking points that were blown up in the 90's, but the philosophical viewpoint of Satan as a bringer of knowledge and as a martyr. Satan as a counterpoint to God, as a challenge to Christianity and to the culture I was brought up in. As a challenge to power structures inherent to Christian society. I thought it was an interesting rabbit hole to go down, and I found a good blog for it called queersatanic.

queersatanic was probably the best place I could have wound up to play out my satanism phase, because it was through their posts that I learned about The Satanic Temple and how fucking awful they are. The lead guy, Doug Mesner, is an antisemite and pro-eugenics - and I'm not talking about Tumblr receipts, I'm talking about entire archived podcasts where the guy says outwardly anti-Semitic things and rubs elbows with a known Klan member, and a pro-eugenics website that the guy maintained and shilled that was up until around 2019.

queersatanic was a former TST member who posted pro-BLM and pro-antifa content on the Facebook pages of their local TST chapter, only for them to be booted out of the church and slapped with a defamation lawsuit along with several other people. Since then, they've been unraveling The Satanic Temple's different businesses - because TST is registered as a business with multiple companies below them - and calling attention to how they supposedly champion abortion as a religious freedom, but how they've lost every case they ever attached themselves to - including cases involving real people who The Satanic Temple co-opted, expanded the scope of and subsequently lost for all those people.

I'm still so mad because I thought that a philosophical take on satanism was cool, a satirical religion preaching self-love and the rejection of power structures and users, only to learn that the largest Satanic organisation at the moment is a corrupt bastardization of those ideals, co-opted by bigots who share the same texts as actual white supremacists.

And you have so many people going "no they're good they're fighting for reproductive rights, you're thinking of LeVeyan satanism!" - which, granted, is its own unique brand of fucked up - but they don't realise the long chain of bigotry and abject failure stemming from a company positioning itself as a religion that's antithetical to institutional abuse, only to abuse defamation lawsuits to gag people and encourage bigotry and eugenics from the top down. Who say that they're the only hope of providing reproductive rights under the banner of religion when they not only keep failing, but they lie about their failures to keep people signing up.

In my opinion? Fuck orgs entirely. Sick of people going "yeah power structures breed corruption, join our organisation!" only for - surprise - that organisation with a power structure to be corrupt in the end.

[queersatanic]

The Satanic Temple's co-owner "Lucien Greaves" makes his case for fascism

Via The.Satanic.Wiki

On Sept. 11, 2003, future co-owner of The Satanic Temple Doug “Lucien Greaves” Misicko, his friend and collaborator Shane Bugbee, and Shane Bugbee’s wife Amy Stocky hosted a 24-hour Internet radio stream with guests and callers to mark the release of their new edition of the proto-fascist manifesto Might Is Right. The following year, Doug Misicko continued to appear on Internet radio streams with Shane and Amy. “The ABCs of the Alphabet” was one such program. This is an excerpt from one of those recordings.

CW: anti-Black racism, n-word slur, white nationalist symbolism, fascism

Full transcript:

12:01 Doug Misicko

Well, I gotta tell you, the f-word still has 'em all beat. (Shane Bugbee: What?) F-word still has 'em all beat internationally. I go to other countries, I still see "fuck" on the wall. I never see "[n-slur]" written on a wall.

12:13 Shane Bugbee

Interesting.

12:14 Doug Misicko

When I was in Italy, I didn’t see "[n-slur]" anywhere.

12:17 Shane Bugbee

But you went to the fascist leader’s house. (Doug Misicko: Actually, I was in a fascist-) The guy who started the fascist-

12:21 Doug Misicko

I was in a fascist neighborhood, right outside the Vatican, and it was a real nice, clean area, but you would see swastikas spraypainted. You know, like the crosshairs. I don’t know what you call that, you know, but it was a fascist symbol. A circle with just the crosshairs in it. With… little fascist logos or anything else. It was a clean area, nice area. If you went to the shitty side of town on the wrong side of the tracks in Rome, saw little hammers and sickles painted on the walls and shit like that. That was the difference.

12:54 Amy Bugbee

Wow, that’s crazy.

12:56 Doug Misicko

Well, I think it says a lot, and I think it stands to reason...

13:01 Amy Bugbee

And you bought that T-shirt. What did your T-shirt say?

13:04 Doug Misicko

Uh, in Italian it says “you’re with us, or you’re against us.” And it was- it’s a- It’s a fascist shirt. It was a fascist logo on it. I actually got it at a little fascist kiosk outside of Gabriele D’Annunzio’s palace.

13:19 Shane Bugbee

And who is that again?

13:21 Doug Misicko

He was a- y’know- he was like the first fascist. He was the godfather of fascism. Italian World War One hero that occupied the promised territories, after the First World War. With the Blackshirts. One of those- One of those hidden heroes. People should look him up. Look him up on the internet... Good deal.