#DA fandom critical

[burning2know]

I've seen lots of fans point to the external conditions of Veilguard's development in defense of it. So, let's examine the external conditions that made this disaster possible.

Misunderstanding of Dragon Age's place in the market

Dragon Age's brand identity is dark fantasy that explores what being a hero means within various structures of power. Veilguard can be seen as a re-branding from this perspective (for reasons that @sandetigerrr talked about at length here). To the extent that effort is successful? Well, with every rebrand, you can expect some level of backlash, because generally people dislike change. Tale as old as time. But, we can know whether rebrands are ultimately successful or not. (Warning: my head canons about how marketing works ahead, I'm not a marketing expert.) Let's use an analogy, if you are a company that produces a soap that is primarily utilitarian, you know, it cleans things. You need to reduce costs. You decide to change the packaging to something less elaborate. The considerations are a) that your customers will still recognize your soap, and b) that the soap still does what the customer buys it for: cleaning. Yes there will be initial backlash "gee, this packaging is so ugly." But presumably, the cleaning power stays. Over time people get used to it, they still buy your soap for the reason they've always done. But say, you change the packaging so that it's less shelf stable, and the soap, in the new packaging, is less effective at cleaning compared to before the change. Not only will the customers think "wow the packaging is so ugly", they will also notice "wow it's not cleaning as well either." Over time, they'll stop buying your soap and look for another alternative, one of your competitors. For the soap, the brand identity isn't JUST "the package looks recognizeable" it's also "the soap cleans well". So you can change some of it while retaining your customers. Undoubted, for the customers who buy the soap for the packaging, and they may go to competition with a similar packaging. But, if you're the only soap on the market with that kind of packaging and that cleans... We're in a different world now. There's no competition. You can do whatever you want short of stop making soap, because the customers are stuck buying this shitty rebranded soap.

Speaking of competition, here's something interesting that was on the EA earnings call just before Veilguard released (transcript in the link),

"When we think about what we have with Veilguard right now, we have a storage studio in BioWare. We have a storied IP and Dragon Age.

We have a team that took extra time to make sure the world was rich and the characters were interesting and the story was compelling I think we're going into a market that has limited competition for this category of game given some of the moves that have happened across the broader industry."

To me, this indicates that at the very top levels, the company thinks that Veilguard is in that last category... They can make whatever changes they want to DA because there's no competition. But they got a crucial thing wrong. There is LOTS of competition for stories that have rich worlds and compelling characters (BG3 is the most obvious one). But there's nothing quite like Dragon Age, because there's no other dark fantasy RPG that explores what good and evil means within various structures of power (hard sell to corporate in the current political climate, so I can understand why they Corinne Busche? chose a different angle... but I'm also here critiquing the chosen angle).

This is a fundamental failure in identifying the brand identity of Dragon Age.

Furthermore, they forgot that their niche is intersectional at its essence. Gamers can still find excellent dark fantasy elsewhere. And gamers can find stories that explores what good and evil means within various structures of power elsewhere. Just not both at the same time. But see, it doesn't matter, because gamers won't find this in the Veilguard either.

For all the Veilguard proponents who said "like all previous games, 5 years from now the fandom will consider this a good game", implying that, this is like any rebranding (because DA does kind of reinvent itself every iteration, in that way it's like the Doctor Who of games and it is a precious IP for that reason). They're probably right. I for one, don't see my opinion of Veilguard changing 5 years from now. But I won't be on the internet yelling at people about it. That's just not healthy for me. And the people who are motivated enough to yell about it into the void 5 years after release probably liked it. Just my baseless guess (and other disingenuous hedging).

The game's tortured development cycle

It's been 10 long years coming. So word in the rumour mills is that lots of interesting ideas and intentions were the original single player iteration. Then it was cancelled and rebooted as a live service multiplayer Destiny copy. Then that was cancelled and rebooted again as a different live service game. Then THAT was dismantled and the pieces from these various iterations frankensteined together into what finally became Veilguard.

Do I feel immense sympathy for the devs? Yes. Imagine working on something for 3 years of your life only to have it be flushed down the toilet for one reason or another. Multiple times. Devastating. Getting paid for it all helps a bit. But still, devastating. And sure enough, there were waves of resignations at multiple points over the past decade. I don't blame them.

What I don't feel sympathy for is why there were these series of cancellations and reboots in the first place. How is it that an ostensibly AAA studio backed by a publisher as massive as EA can't get its shit together enough to rally behind a single vision? Corporate bureaucracy? Office politics? Blind ambition? No matter what you call it, these were management failures that had little to do with actually Making the game, but that has a disproportionately large effect on the final product. The devs made the game DESPITE the poor management, management that was supposed to support them doing their work. Management failing the one, albeit complicated, job they have. Absolutely disgusting.

But this shouldn't excuse the final product being what it is. It doesn't somehow make it acceptable or good. This is like receiving a C+ grade for an assignment that you rushed the night before, and saying "Well, yeah, I wrote it the night before. I could have gotten an A if I spent a month on it." The fact of the matter is, you got a C+, not an A. You can still pat yourself on the back and say "I'm not stupid, or bad at assignments, I was just rushed. I'm an A student really!" That's all fine for you, but nobody else is obliged to believe you unless you start turning in assignments that gets As.

In this analogy, us fans are the grader of the assignment bioware just turned in veilguard. And we should really grade the game based on the quality of the work presented, not based on how long it took the devs to make it. One because there's contention about how much of that 10 years time should be counter. And also because time spent and quality are two separate constructs. There's a special category of people who can spent a single night and output an A assignment, and another special category of people who can spend 10 years putting their best efforts into an assignment and still get C+. We can't know which kind bioware is as a studio given the kinds of changes that has taken place in the studio over the past decade (and given veilguard, it wasn't the former).

This, to me is really tragic, because I KNOW bioware writers can write brilliant games. They have previously! This is why I like DA so much. But clearly something about this team comp leading up to Veilguard did not work. We don't know exactly what it was. And making up stories in our heads about the things we don't know isn't likely to get us anywhere that's close to reality.

We should do our best to understand the reality in which everything is operating. Not the least for the sake of supporting the improvement of labour conditions in the games industry. That's the only way that we can rally behind efforts that make effective change. Changes that, you know, make sure that the types of things that made all those bioware veterans leave (apparently without proper severance compensation, to boot) are not likely to happen again at other studios.

(this is just the rumour mill, I wait with unbated breath for a jason schreier exposé sometime down the line)

But it's all there if you look for it!

First of all, it's not. It really is not all there. Because a lot of it was cut. Check out the art book for Veilguard. The things that those creatives have planned shows that they know what effectively telling those stories would have needed, and there are some hints of them that made it into the game. But only hints. I wonder at the sheer amount of information in the art book. It's WILD. It's exceptional. It's a massacre on the cutting room floor. I weep for the brilliant, lost ideas that will never see the light of day outside of concept art form. But man, does that book ever NEEDED to be published.

Secondly, we can find evidence for anything if we look hard enough. That's the power of fandom. In a way, it's why I'm here. I'm a big fan of untethered tinfoil-hat fan theories. But, it's important to distinguish an interpretation from the actual text. Because we can read the text, but we can't read minds.

[sha-lyuzar]

"You're just mad it's not like origins"

Yeah, how dare i be disappointed in a game series that has followed a certain tone and theme for three games, and has always been narratively complex, and about navigating hard decisions and moral dilemmas, structual injustices, deep characterisations, beauty and tragedy in tandem, rich worldstates and character arcs and thin lines between heros and villains... it's almost as if my disappointment stems from care and passion for dragon age, and not from an unwillingness to accept change, or a misplaced sense of nostalgia. It's almost as if people are allowed to criticise a thing and discuss its flaws, while also enjoying other aspects of it, and voicing their opinions on the world's most unprofitable social network to a handfull of followers and mutuals, isn't going to make any meaningful dent in the game's success

[biowaredisasterbisexual]

I’m sorry. I can’t. I try not to get involved in fandom foolishness too much. But egad, the vile treatment of Neve because she romances Lucanis if (AND ONLY IF) Rook romances neither of them is…horrific.

How, BisexualDisaster, you may ask?

1) A lot of critiquing that Neve is uncaring, unempathic, not supportive.

2) At least one claim (getting a lot of agreements in the notes) that Lucanis only gets together with Neve because it’s “easy.” She doesn’t “fix” him so he can just go on being I guess broken somehow?

3) A lot of references to her being too sexual.

4) Insinuations that she’s the type of woman you hook up with, but not the type you marry.

5) Insistence that because she is cynical, she isn’t overtly emotive in the way they would expect, she is unfeeling.

I just…..it’s awful. Why is it so awful? Well, let’s break that down point by point.

1) This is completely contradicted by canon. She goes out of her way for just about every companion to help them, even ones she isn’t super close to. She provides a sounding board and emotional support for Taash and Bellara explicitly in their quest lines. People are disregarding everything she actually says and does in the game to cast her in a role that seems entirely based on sexist and racist stereotypes.

2) There’s no basis for this either. Moreover, this is a truly troubling way to view mental health and healing. Lucanis is not a broken toy or a fixer-upper home. He doesn’t need someone to “fix” him. Nor is he too traumatized to make his own romantic choices. This argument infantilizes him, diminishes his own agency in his healing, and is sexist to boot. It’s ableist, misogynistic, and shitty.

3) This is such a common racist belief about WOC that I hardly know where to start. We are all hypersexual, and if we aren’t we are frigid and prudish and angry. I can’t even. What’s wrong with you all?

4) I’m inclined to agree that Neve isn’t a homemaker, but good grief, how tradwife can you get? I’M not a homemaker. My husband did the bulk of domestic labor in our relationship before he became disabled. Not every relationship needs to look like Leave It To Beaver, and insisting it does is wildly sexist. Oh, and this is also relying on the stereotypes of WOC all being sex-seeking ladies about town to boot.

5) This harkens to two stereotypes. The first is sexist: that women are expected to be outwardly emotive and fawning. That’s neither accurate nor fair. The second is racist: this is a subtle version of the Angry Black Woman stereotype. That WOC aren’t sweet and nurturing and only demonstrate Negative emotions.

This is ridiculous. It’s awful. It’s racist, sexist, and ableist all at once. In an effort to, what, make it so that if you don’t romance Lucanis with your Rook he can’t be with anyone else? It’s not a competition between Rook and Neve or Lucanis if your Rook is romancing them, because your LI CHOOSES ROOK. No one is stealing anyone from your Rook. It’s only if you romance neither that they get together, and the weird possessive idea that if you don’t have Lucanis no one should is deeply troubling.

Is your favorite movie Swimfan? Is it because it made you feel seen?

JFC.

Get it together, people.

Sincerely,

A WOC married to a sweet white man who knows how to cook

[dragonageconfessions]

CONFESSION:

I'm really happy we're getting to choose our origin again for Dragon Age Veilguard but I have dealt with people telling me its going to suck because it won't be like Dragon Age Origins. You know I love Origins too but its been fifteen years to accept the reality that each game was NOT going to be like Origins. Its time to get over it. Even the developers stated years ago that each game would be different.

I remember people were enraged due to DA2 because it was a big departure from Origins. And then there was the very militant/vocal portion of the fandom that trashed Inquisition for being so different than 2 and many Origins fans were still complaining that it wasn't the same as the first game.

Now there is a fourth game and the cycle of complaining continues. People should have realized by now that the Dragon Age games have an established history of trying new things with how they deliver that experience. I get people don't like change, but its been years and A LOT has changed in the gaming world as well as the entire world in general since then. And honestly if a person only likes one game out of a 4 game series, then perhaps its time to accept the series isn't for them and move on. When I'm unhappy with something, I move on. I don't wish for it to fail, I don't wish for people to lose their jobs, and I don't demean people who are looking forward to the next game. And I would never expect the developers to cater to my wants/demands.

[firelxdykatara]

I continue to be very confused over the shock and outrage I keep seeing over the worldstate shit cause it's like... this is not new at all? The series has, from the very beginning, discarded big choices if they needed to in a future game and otherwise ignored just about everything else outside of a few offhand mentions/codex entries/odd lines of dialogue.

You can kill Leliana, and it doesn't matter--she will still show up at the end of DA2 and be a key player in DAI. You can give Isabela to the Arishok, and it doesn't matter--she escapes the Qunari and winds up working with the Inquisition anyway. It doesn't matter who you make the ruler of Ferelden, the only scene where they show up plays out the exact same way regardless of whether it's King Alistair, Queen Anora, or both. The Warden companion can be one of three people, none of which change anything about the plotline he's involved in, and the only difference is investigative dialogue (and yeah, I ask Alistair about the HoF every time and I scream myself hoarse cause I love hearing him talk about her, but it still doesn't have a substantial effect on the story).

It doesn't matter how you play Hawke in DA2, come DAI they react the same way to blood magic (even though Hawke can be a bloodmage) and their role in the story is completely unchanged no matter what settings you give DA2 in the Keep. Also, the game will act like the Legacy DLC happened regardless of whether or not you actually played it, which is very annoying because both DA2 and DAI have a serious problem with paywalled content being super super vital to the next game (and in DAI's case, it was the true ending of the game that was paywalled!).

And the list goes on. Which is not to say that any of this is bad, but it is generally inevitable! You can't have games that interconnect and branch so wildly while still preserving the ability to create any more games in the series. Mass Effect gets around some of this by having a single protagonist with a fairly set character through all three games, but even then, each game plays more or less the same and it all leads to the same three choices in the end. Which I've also seen complaints about, but like, what's the alternative? There's only so much that can be done if you want to have a coherent and still-playable game.

I get that the fandom cycle is the endlessly bitch about the latest game in the series until a few years have passed and then it's suddenly The Best Ever and anything that deviates from it will suck but it is seriously getting exhausting lmfao

[eff-plays]

Hey man if you're posting Veilguard defense/positive and tag it as #veilguard critical you're a huge asshole btw 💖

Like some mornings I open the shitty Tumblr phone app and search for "veilguard critical" to see what my correct girlies are saying and every single time I see some motherfucker whinging about how mean everybody is being and how negativity is the poison of the heart or some shit, and inevitably I go "ugh ok this is probably showing up because I searched for veilguard critical instead of going into the tag itself, they didn't actually tag it as such" and inevitably it IS tagged with the critical tag, wasting my the benefit of the doubt.

And I'm like oh wow!! Have you tried not going into the veilguard critical tag you stupid slut? Maybe your experience of the fandom would be so much better if you didn't browse and post in the veilguard critical tag, a tag where people are critical of the thing you like? Just a thought!

Like I get it, you think you're some sort of enlightened bastion of positivity and that you're descending from up high and into the muck where we vermin live in order to dispense your pure hateless wisdom, but trust me, the disrespect puts us off both you and the game you go to bat for. Respect the tagging etiquette even if you don't respect our opinions. Cuz none of the actual veilguard critical posts I've read have been about the people who love the game, but every veilguard defense post tagged as veilguard critical has had a whiff of toxicity and superiority that makes you come off as far nastier than us mean and evil critics.

I'm gonna start a sideblog and reblog only those posts I swear to god.

[saintlethanavir]

I'm going to say something controversial. If you are disappointed about the world state thing for Veilguard you are valid, but also you need to realize that Dragon Age as a series and Bioware as a company are not BG3 and Larian Studios.

We are spoiled for choice because of BG3 and we live in an internet society where everything is picked apart because that's what gets more clout and likes and attention. But not everything can be BG3 and Veilguard would have ten more years of development if they tried to make it so. Do I think it's silly they SUPPOSEDLY aren't doing anything with the HoF or Hawke? A little bit. Do I think it's silly they're not asking about the Well of Sorrows? yes. Do I think it's sad they're implementing their own canon yet again? Also a little bit.

BUT ALSO

We don't know the storyline, we don't know what they have planned further in the game. We've seen such a small amount of the game from various places and we have not played the game itself. They could have so much shit up their sleeves. Epler said he was okay with all the spoilers they had shared so far because the rest of the game was WILD compared to what they had showed us. I think we need to wait, and it's okay to be disappointed but also hold your horses and not jump to conclusions.

It's going to be okay, and not every single Dragon Age game needs to have every single choice harkened back to. DA2 barely had anything to do with the Hero of Ferelden or the Wardens aside from Anders and Carver or Bethany. In Inquisition we only have a few lines about romances from DA2 and companion choices, the Warden is only mentioned in throwaway lines and a codex entry. You're getting upset about valid things but it's also stuff they've been doing for years.

If you don't want to play it don't play it, but I think those of us that do want to play it need to sing this games praises when it does come out. Otherwise we may not get another Dragon Age or Mass Effect game. The chads and incels are doing our job for us we don't need to add fuel to the fire.

[eye-of-the-queen]

If you’re one of my friends (or someone else who found me through the tumblr algorithm) who is upset about the latest veilguard news turn away now because you’re most likely not going to like what I’m about to say

Rant under the cut

People are being so dramatic for no reason I’m sorry

“This was all a waste of time” when they literally say in the article that the events of the games STILL happen, it’s not like they’re retconning them. And most likely world state decisions from the previous games will still be asked in the games going forward AS they become important, they literally said they chose the world state choices based on what would be relevant to the story of the new game

It’s a new area of thedas and literal DECADES after the events of the previous games, I’m sorry it just seems silly to expect the events of the past games to still have the same relevance that they did in inquisition, which is only 2 years after da2 and 10 years after origins and also took place in the same area of the continent as them

I do agree that not including the well of sorrows decision is certainly a choice, but we also don’t know the complete story of veilguard literally at all. What we do know is solas has the aspect of mythal that was in flemeth, we also know that for at least some portion of the game he’s trapped in the fade and rook is kind of his mouth piece. Maybe the reason it won’t come up is because with him being trapped he can’t actually do anything with his powers, that’s been my theory for a while at least

I genuinely do not know how y’all got “The inquisitor either hated solas or romanced him” from what they said. The leap in logic is crazy to me because they literally said that your relationship regardless of whether you romanced him or not is going to be important

“How are they going to write around these world state decisions with them not being choosable?” Well considering the game is fully written and is coming out next month it seems they found a way

The way y’all were all hyping up this game as the next best thing and then ONE thing that you don’t like is revealed and y’all all turned on it is crazy

Also to tie this up, we literally know that veilguard has gone through at least 2 rewrites because in the same article where they revealed the world state stuff they literally said there was an iteration of da4 that just did not have that much solas involvement. Have yall considered that maybe the rewrites were due to them getting stuck on all of the choices that could be made in past games and so they decided to just pick the ones that were going to be the most relevant to the story to start with and then go from there in subsequent games

I’m sorry, coming from someone who’s literal favorite game franchise is dragon age and has replayed origins multiple times, this all just seems like such a non issue to me

[justcallmecappy]

One of the criticisms I've seen DA players have in response to Anders' actions at the Kirkwall Chantry is some degree of, 'his actions forced innocent mages into a war they had no choice whether or not they wanted to be involved in'.

What a lot of these players seem to miss is this: The mages were already involved. They have been involved since childhood, when their magic manifested.

If you are born a mage in Southern Thedas, you are marked. The Templars will find you, or your neighbors who were conditioned by the Chantry to fear magic will turn you in, and you are brought to the Circle where you are at risk of Tranquility, or Annulment, and subjected to a Harrowing. Your children born to you in the Circle will be taken from you to be raised in a Chantry orphanage (like Wynne's child was). You are not allowed to get married, or start a family, or own land. You are not allowed to leave your Circle ever, unless conscripted to fight in the army (like in the Fifth Blight) or fulfilling some whim or need of those in power (like Malcolm Hawke being made to entertain nobles at a party). You might be thrown into the dungeon and left to starve to death, like the mage child Cole (and other mage apprentices of the White Spire) did. You are at risk of physical and sexual abuse, like the mages of the Gallows were.

Innocent mages were already involved. They were already being killed, they were already fighting for their lives for centuries since the inception of Circles, long before Anders' actions.

Also, in the case of the Gallows specifically, Knight-Commander Meredith had already called for the Annulment as early as the beginning/mid of Act 3. The mages' lives were already in danger, even before the Chantry was destroyed.

Anders tried for six years to make people listen and show how magic is not meant to be feared and can be used for good -- by publishing a manifesto, by providing free magical healthcare in Darktown -- to bring people's attention to the plight of mages and change things for the better. It took the imminent threat of his people being slaughtered wholesale for him to resort to what is aptly titled 'The Last Straw'.

If players want to blame anyone for subjecting mages to a conflict they did not want, look no further than the Chantry and their system of exploitation and oppression over the mages. Put blame on the Chantry for forcing mages into lives they did not choose, and asserting methods of culling and control over them, simply for how they were born. It was the Chantry that gave them no choice whether or not they had a say in staying alive or dying.

And if DA players would still say that the mages could have tried for a more "peaceful route" to alleviate their circumstances (despite seeing how Anders' manifesto, his Darktown clinic, and years of trying to negotiate with Elthina failed and Meredith was calling for Annulment anyway): very rarely do the oppressed win change by pandering to the morals of their oppressors.

Innocent mages were already suffering and being murdered in droves, for centuries. Innocent mages were already involved in this struggle, whether they wanted to be or not. And Anders' actions at the Chantry was like a rallying cry: If we're going to die anyway, then I'd rather die trying to take them down than giving them what they want.

(Also, I have not yet gone into detail on what actually started the mage-templar war, which was the Seekers hiding the cure for Tranquility, and Lord Seeker Lambert's decision to dissolve the Nevarran accord and take the Templars hunting for the free mages across the countryside because he decided dead mages were better than free mages -- because that's a whole separate post.)

[covertleathers]

Unhinged meta-lucanis-DAfandom thought under the cut

isn't kind of sad that lucanis' whole arc is about coming to realize he is enough as who he is and a whole chunk of the fandom who are upset about his romance are saying he and his romance are, in fact, not enough?

[awwwokay]

Yeah no, I don’t feel bad for y’all at this point. You deserve those 3 choices if this is your response

[housecantori]

The more I see people defending Veilguard and saying it was extremely good the more I dislike it tbh

[alstroermeria]

The DA fandom is so back because what does it mean that you're disappointed that your character isn't called with a fantasy slur😭??

[bees-bees-fear]

Writing challenge!

Taash doesn't get to exist as the character they intended because of how it was decided to use them to introduce the concept into the IP. Taash's whole character and storyline could exist exactly as it plays out, and they could be presented as "Here 👍" just as plainly as the other nonbinary characters you mentioned. But the writers figured they needed to use them as a tool, because they skipped over all the other real world LGBTQ history, and had to bum rush the full implementation. Taash is the only vehicle they have for this, they get watered down into this whole YUP NONBINARY PEOPLE EXIST, IT'S TOTALLY NORMAL, DEFINITELY NOT OUT OF THE ORDINARY, BEEN HERE THE WHOLE TIME, WE'VE DEFINITELY EVER HAD NONBINARY PEOPLE IN MIND, orientation of excuses. They didn't make any room for Taash to simply exist, to simply be, and have their experience with finding theirself. Taash carries the entire weight of everything trans in Thedas. If you took Taash out, there's only tidbits here and there (though Taash theirself is very well implemented. I've mentioned many times how "being nonbinary" is very well engrained in Taash's character, and not just a post-it note that was slapped on their portfolio, left for any player to go "I'ma just go ahead and rip that back off there and ignore it").

Everything rests on them, and it dilutes their actual characterization.

Taash has to be "how Bioware implemented nonbinary characters" in the same way nobody ever talks about any actual aspects of Krem, he's only brought up for the trans conversations.

[dragonageconfessions]

Anonymous Submissions shut down for the time being

I received 27 submissions on Varric's appearance in the trailer. 60% were mostly positive while the 40% were outraged and some were viciously angry and very profane to the developers which I do not allow on this blog. And here is a little reminder of how Varric looked like in the Inquisition reveal trailer....

I was around back then. In fact here's a confession about it and back then I got a ton of complaint-confessions about it.

Here is how Varric in the game.

I remember the multitude of complaints about the Inquisition reveal trailers because this blog was around then so I am not surprised to see it for the new trailer. Please remember trailers are different than what its going to look like in the game.

Thanks for reading

[firelxdykatara]

Oh, also, why is this fandom in general so allergic to just... not listening to creators when they say things about their project you don't like. Once a story has been published it's out in the world and free to be interpreted and the creators' intention or thoughts behind it are no more or less important than you want them to be! They are essentially headcanons at that point and if you want to ignore them you can! Some Reddit AMA should not be igniting a goddamn fandom apocalypse I'm sorry, it is so genuinely like entirely not that serious.