#D&D are misogynists but not in regard to Dany

[fedonciadale]

Hi Fedonciadale,

Thanks for that answer about Dany fans' refusal to accept her Endgame in the show. I have 2 questions for you: Does a person hating Dany symbolizes internal Misogyny???

I agree that she is a well-written, powerful, interesting, 3-Dimensional woman Character. But ever since she got her hands on that Dragon (Well, even before that... burning Mirri Mazz Dur is not something to be very proud of, as he stans claim to be), she was seen losing her humanity a bit by bit... And Dany burning KL was hinted since forever... That eerie HoTUD vision from Season 3??? And the way she poses herself as a Feminist but in reality she is an Hypocrite. When she could've been merciful to the Civilians in KL but ended up Burning everyone on a Whim.... She is a well-written Villain and I hate her. It's not just because of that.... It's totally because Dany passes off every cruel act of hers under the name of Justice, Greater Good, Breaking the wheel, Liberation and what not.

In short, She posed herself as a Hero/Saviour but ended up committing Mass Murders and justify it no less.

Is it so wrong to hate a woman character for a genuine reason???? [[For Some reason, I am called out for being a Misogynist... Because I love Sansa and Arya... Well, all the other women characters too... But not Dany]]

I see some people calling D&D and GRRM to be a Misogynist because they made the Lead Female Character to be the Greatest Villain and irredeemable. What do you think about this claim???

Sorry for the lengthy ask.

Hi there!

Well, you're certainly not a misogynist for disliking or even hating a fictional character.

And allowing for female villains is not misogynistic either. I'd even argue the other way round. Thinking that a character is good just because she is a woman plays into the saint-slut dichotomy that has been used for ages to put women into neat little boxes.

Let them be villains, let them be tyrannical and hypocritical villains like Dany. Let them become tyrants who think they are benevolent and in reality are the worst.

So, no, settting a lead female character on a dark path (a path she's trodden on since book 1) does not make a writer a misogynist. It doesn’t even mean that the writer uses misogynistic tropes (two different things).

I actually think that people are blind for Dany’s shortcomings because of the fact that GRRM made her a woman. They see her abused in book 1 and see her overcoming it and they think it is a story of empowerment and overlook the red flags. Red flags that might be noticed if Dany were a man. That is exploiting some misconceptions or rather some tropes that are connected with female characters but it is not misogyny, and I would argue that exploiting the readers’ preconception about female characters is the opposite of misogyny.

I think Dark Dany is intended to make readers think, to question why they fell for the PoV trap, why they drank the Dany cool-aid. So in theory, they could become better at dissecting their own preconceptions about where female characters are headed. And that is actually a good thing.

I think that GRRM does the opposite with Sansa. She is a girly girly and that is why readers expect her either to just have a romantic endgame that is ultimately more important to the male characters than her or to be punished. That she is on a learning arc that does not involve her shedding her feminity is not on their radar.

So, look I am not saying that D&D or even GRRM do not use misogynystic tropes. D&D certainly have a problem with misogny (sexpostion, gratuitous rape, you name it) - I just remind you of the terrible “thanks” Sansa gave to the Hound for her abuse (*shudders*).

GRRM also uses some misogynystic tropes but I do think that he uses them for a reason most of the time - I would argue for example that the horrible sex scenes are there to show something about the characters and not to be horrible sex scenes. I think that he does in some cases fall for traps certainly with the child brides and the ever present rape threat, but not with Dany.

So. Let’s jot that down. Having a female villain who fulfills tyrant tropes that usually are reserved for men is not misogynistic. Trying to get rid of misogyny in media (and it is a problem) does not mean that suddenly only a certain type of women can now have a happily ever after. This is just dumb.

Newsflash: Literature can have an unhappy ending and still be good? Literature can depict an abused person becoming and abuser themselves without supporting abuse? Because it happens in real life and actually I think nothing is more horrifying than realising that an abuse victim can become an abuser. It really shows the spiral of evil and how hard it is to escape that.

Describing that does not mean that you think it happens every time, especially not if other examples are right there.

Thanks for the ask!

[esther-dot]

I kind of want to feel bad for targ stans and how the finale made them feel...but then I remember how vicious they were (and continue to be) against Sansa fans, Elia fans, Aegon is real fans, etc.

Did the heroic music in her scenes duped them? Did they miss the H*tler cam shots during her “badass” moments? Booh, booh, let me get the smallest violin 🎻 out.

Honestly, tons of bloggers in this hell site, Kelsey and others on Quora said for years she was headed this way...and they wouldn’t listen. They mocked everyone, specially Jonsas, and when the last episode came instead of being ashamed of their ignorance and inability to read the clues in the story they doubled down on it and attacked Stark fans, Dorne fans, and everyone else viciously. They harrased the actors irl (specially Kit and Sophie) for something a fictional character had done and signed a petition asking for a reshoot. 🤡

Now they have all these “hot takes” where they find Martin’s writing to be subpar and r*cist and misogynistic but if their fav had won they would be praising him to the skies.

Sorry, but I thank D&D for fooling them and exposing them as the tyranny apologists that they are. 🤷🏽‍♀️

I still remember one of their “theories” was Sansa would die a horrible death at the hands of her own sister and that’s why I reserve my sympathy for the side of the fandom that was actually paying attention to the narrative and minding their own business.

The North is free. Ding dong the witch is dead.

(about my tags on this reblog)

The North is free. Ding dong the witch is dead.

lmaoooooo. I do like that! I didn’t mean to say let’s forget everything what happens/happened in the fandom because yes, the Dany stans were awful. Kelsey wasn’t into shipping and she made very good arguments for Dark Dany for years and suffered horrible abuse. She finally spoke out after s8 and said that Targ stans were far and away the worst part of the fandom and had sent all kinds of threats to her and she had to delete all personal accounts because of doxing fears etc. And I know Sansa fans and Jonsas have received the same kind of treatment. It’s appalling and no one should ever harass people online, let alone send rape and death threats which at one point were routine in this fandom. So I certainly don’t want to minimize that, and I’m not suggesting we pretend that didn’t/doesn’t happen. I have hate sitting in my inbox right now even though I have hundreds of accounts blocked. They’re relentless. That part of the fandom is beyond the pale.

I simply meant, I was blindsided by what D&D did to a favorite character too.

I grieve too.

So, I do not understand or condone their behavior, but I do understand their feelings regarding the finale. Bewilderment, disgust...I felt it for totally different reasons, but I did feel that way too. I understand the rage, and reading posts by nontoxic fans, what Dany meant to them as survivors of abuse, well, it made me more disgusted with D&D’s choice to mislead the audience than with the fans who didn’t think too deeply and weren’t reading metas that explained the visual story that D&D repeatedly undermined with their dialogue.

Anyway, I’m not saying anyone needs to feel differently about the rest of the fandom. I’ve said recently I find everyone else except our corner pretty abhorrent, but in this, in my anger about the finale, I relate to them. 

[weirwoodking]

hi i was wondering if you would be interested in making a meta on the differences between show!sansa and book!sansa bc i know they changed a lot of her storyline but i don't understand why everyone hates on sophie turner? it can be short or inexistent meta if you're not up to it but i would be very interested to know what you have to say

I mean, the differences between the two are pretty simple. After season 4, D&D decided to cut Sansa’s book storyline, and replaced it with their own rewrite. This affected the plots of multiple characters, particularly Show!Theon’s and Show!Jon’s, but most of all, Show!Sansa’s, obviously. George himself has spoken on how much he hated what the show did with Sansa. He said in 2014 that he had “no idea what they were doing with Sansa or where they’re taking her storyline.”

I could go episode by episode and point out everything that’s wrong or is out of character, but it’s kind of useless. The show did not adapt books 4 & 5, it’s as simple as that, everything is different and feels like it’s out of character. For the first 4 seasons, I thought that Sansa’s story was handled fine (I haven’t watched GOT seasons 1-4 in over 4 years, so my memory is a bit foggy on the specifics tho). Sophie Turner isn’t exactly how I picture Sansa to look, but her acting was fantastic, especially for someone so young and for her first television role.

I personally haven’t seen people “hating on Sophie Turner”, but I’m not involved in the GOT side of tumblr, only the ASOIAF side, so I don’t see people talk about the actors that much. I do know that there are people in fandom (not just in the GOT fandom but in fandom in general) who will conflate actors with their characters. I have seen some toxic Show!Sansa stans do this with Show!Dany and Emilia Clarke (mostly last year). It seems to be more of a problem with female characters and actresses (‘cause sexism), and I think it’s really creepy and disturbing. Sophie Turner is not Sansa, so if anyone is “hating on her” because they didn’t like how the show changed Sansa’s story, that’s really fucked up. I don’t know much about the GOT cast, actually, I rarely watched interviews or behind-the-scenes videos. I don’t know if Sophie Turner has said that she likes the show’s ending or something like that, so if that was the case I could see people being critical of her opinion. But even if she did like the ending of the show and the way the writers changed her character after season 4, I still don’t think you should hate on an actor for that. Because the actors didn’t make the show, the showrunners did. It’s not on the actors to get everything right about their characters, it’s on the writers and directors to tell them the story and guide them through their acting. I don’t blame the actors for anything about GOT (no one should), I blame the writers.

What I find is the biggest problem about post-season 4 Sansa is how little regard they had for her character, while simultaneously claiming she was their favorite. I believe their exact quote was “Sansa was the character we cared about more than anyone”. Okay… then why did you cut her storyline? I feel like their whole “she’s our favorite character” act was more to try to defend against the criticism of the cutting of her storyline. What bothers me most is how they just casually threw her into the Ramsay plotline without thinking at all about what that meant. If you’re going to have one of the main characters of the show get serially raped, you need to think about what you’re doing and how to handle that horrific situation. In the books, the Jeyne Poole storyline is handled very carefully. The acts committed by Ramsay against Jeyne and Theon are never really shown, only implied, alluded to, or very briefly described. The show, on the other hand, explicitly showed Theon’s torture scenes, and made Ramsay a much bigger character in seasons 5 & 6 than he is in the books. I feel like they just used him for shock value, because so much of Game of Thrones revolved around shock value and in-the-moment reactions. I think they just saw Ramsay as a character they could turn into Joffrey 2.0, which is why they put Sansa with him. They didn’t care to follow Sansa’s book arc, they just wanted to continue the whole “caged-bird” thing with her, for shock value.

And to deflect against criticism, that’s why they made her so smart and powerful in the final few seasons. There’s next-to-no build up, no character development, no focus on her growth, the show just tells us that Sansa is the smartest character, and the audience is expected to agree. Because D&D did not care about showing her development. There’s a line in season 7, when Sansa and Arya kill Littlefinger, where Sansa says “thank you for all of your lessons, Lord Baelish.” And that immediately stuck out to me, because that sounds like something Book!Sansa would say. The show cut out Sansa’s Vale storyline, where she spends much more time with Littlefinger, and so… what “lessons” is Show!Sansa referring to here? They didn’t spend a lot of time together in the show. I do think that Sansa will defeat Littlefinger in the books, so that line makes sense for Book!Sansa.

What they did was cut Sansa’s storyline, throw her into a horrific situation that they used for shock value, and then expected to be praised when they made her a “girlboss” later on. They basically said “hey, we know we essentially erased this character’s arc and development, but at least we did a feminism, right?” And that’s what really pisses me off. The blatant disregard for female characters, then saying “no, we do care about them! Believe us!”

Lindsay Ellis has a really good video called “Woke Disney” that touches on this. Basically, she talks about how Disney’s recent live action remakes tend to make each of the princesses a “#girlboss” in a very corporate, fake-feminist manner that is very easy to see right through. (I recommend just watching the video, she goes more in-depth into the subject.)

A similar thing occurred with GOT (the show only had one female writer after season 4, by the way, who was a staff writer for season 8. And before that, only 4 episodes were written by a woman). D&D wrote a lot of problematic, misogynistic, homophobic, and racist things. Then they tried to cover that up with (to use a line from Ms. Ellis) a coat of #girlboss paint. For example, I remember after s8e3 (when Arya killed the Night King) came out, that was when the big criticism for season 8 really started. People saw how bad the writing of that episode was, and how ridiculous and anti-climactic it all felt. However, when people criticized the manner in which the Night King was killed (i.e. saying that it would have made more narrative sense for Jon to do it instead of Arya), there was another group of people who called that criticism sexist. “That’s sexist! You’re just upset that a girl did it instead of a guy!” Which… ugh... do I need to explain how idiotic that line of reasoning is?

And that’s kind of how the HBO show tried to get away with its misogyny, not just the misogyny of Dany’s ending, but of the whole show in general. “Look, we can’t be misogynistic, we had Arya kill the Night King! Look, we can’t be misogynistic, we had Sansa become a #girlboss!” Bullshit, you’re just trying to hide your sexism and bad writing behind a facade of fake feminism.

… *sigh* ...

Anyway, nothing but love for Book!Sansa, and nothing but hate for the writers of Game of Thrones. I hate how the show turned Sansa into a very polarizing character, when she shouldn’t be. None of the child characters of ASOIAF should be polarizing, they’re children for fucks sake.

I’m very excited to see where GRRM takes Sansa’s character in TWOW, I feel like she’s got an awesome journey coming up (hopefully involving her discovering her skinchanging powers, taking down Littlefinger, and heading north for home). 

Uh, wow, this got really long… and I’m exhausted after thinking about the sh*w that much. Here, as a treat for reading all the way down to the bottom, have a Sansa WIP drawing that I haven’t finished yet:

[rainhadaenerys]

Daenerys Meta Masterpost Part 8 - Game of Thrones

This is part 8 of my Daenerys Meta Masterpost. I’ve compiled more than 2000 metas about Daenerys, both about the books and the show, and I intend to constantly update this post with more metas. The metas listed here will be linked to their reblogs in my blog, (since many people tend to change their usernames, and I don’t want the links to stop working in this case). Of the metas linked here, the ones that I wrote are in bold text. It’s also important to note that the metas here reflect my own opinions about the characters, I don’t claim to be listing every meta that was ever written about Daenerys.

In this part 8, I’ll list show metas criticizing the show:

SEXISM IN DANY’S ENDING AND WRITING

OTHER REASONS DANY’S ENDING SENDS TERRIBLE MESSAGES, AND OTHER SHOW CRITICISMS

This is a list about the show, but there might be some metas that bring up interesting points about the books as well.

Link to the complete Masterpost: HERE

Last update: July 7 2024

SEXISM IN DANY’S ENDING AND WRITING

Dany’s ending was sexist: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8)

Sexist tropes endorsed by Dany’s ending

Dany’s ending and rape victims: (1) (2)

Abused characters becoming villains is nothing new (in one of the reblogs)

Dany and slut shaming

Dany’s ending is a demonization of women in power: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10)

Dany/Morgana parallel - demonizing women in power

Daenerys Targaryen and Ophelia - An Essay

Women and moral greyness

Dany and how the patriarchy has treated women in history: (1) (2)

Daenerys and infertility

The amount that female characters spoke in GOT and season 8: (1) (2)

Dany’s ending and domestic violence: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5)

The show didn’t show Dany’s “descent” into madness and villainy from her perspective, but from the perspective of the male character: (1) (2)

Daenerys was a power fantasy for women, a revolutionary female character, and this was ruined: (1) (2)

It wasn’t just ableism, it was sexism too

Sexism in clothes - Dany was only good when her clothes reflected her boyfriend

Women in refrigerators: (1) (2) (3)

Dany threatens male protagonists, their importance and their power, which is why she was turned evil and fridged

The portrayal of powerful female characters in fiction and why Dany as a hero was revolutionary in that regard

Male writers don’t care about female characters

Dany’s death was glorified, prettified and the violence was downplayed so that the man could look like a hero: (1) (2) (3)

Women and anger

Hysterical Women

The show vilified female characters and whitewashed male characters from the books - Dany and Shae

Having Sansa as representation of a “good” female ruler doesn’t mean Dany’s ending isn’t sexist and an attack on women on power: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8)

Dany and Sansa should have gotten along

Sexism in Dany’s writing: she can never make her own decisions or have her own opinions without men telling her what to do and being controlled by men: (1) (2) (3)

The ending being better written wouldn’t make it less sexist: (1) (2)

Daenerys was reduced to her looks in season 8

Women don't get anywhere by waiting quietly for men to give them things

The reluctant (masculine) hero in GoT and Harry Potter

GoT Season 5 & Sexism : Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6 | Part 7 | Part 8 | Part 9

Praising Sansa for being a "good victim" and vilifying Dany for being a "bad victim" is misogynistic

Emilia acting “aroused” during Drogo’s speech is not a sign of Mad Queen Dany: it’s a sign of D&D’s misogyny

Men are shown mercy, women are not

Dany’s show ending was a combination of book!Cersei and book!Catelyn, and this highlights the sexism of the ending

Why Dany's ending is specifically awful due to the fact that she is an unique female character

Daenerys Targaryen & Sansa Stark: Evil Queens & Good Queens and The Power of Narrative

'Please' and 'husband': What do women say in Game of Thrones?

The sexism of the scene of Tormund praising Jon for Dany’s accomplishments

Show!Jon was violent, but Jon's violence was seen as good, while Dany's violence was seen as bad

The sexism in the writing of the women in Dany's war council

About Tyrion saying he wasn't "successful" in loving Dany

Dany’s downfall and the patriarchy’s erasure of the Goddess

The different ways the show framed male characters and female characters going to war

How the show vilified a barren women and "redeemed" Cersei because of her children

The sexism in this line from Tyrion: "maybe it was pretentious of me to think I could guide her"

How the show destroyed one of the best relationships between women and destroyed both Dany and Missandei with Missandei's death

Positive female interactions from the books that the show didn't include

The double standards in HOTD and GOT about Dany using dragons vs men using dragons

How the end of GOT makes the end of HOTD sexist

Dany's bad ending is the reason House of the Dragon doesn't work

Dany was vilified in the show in the same way women were vilified as witches

OTHER REASONS DANY’S ENDING SENDS TERRIBLE MESSAGES, AND OTHER SHOW CRITICISMS

Mad Queen is ableist: (1) (2)

Dany’s ending is terrible for immigrants who look up to her

The decontextualization of Dany’s violence destroys any discussion of politics and power

Dany’s ending demonizes revolutionaries and sends a right-wing message: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6) (7) (8) (9) (10) (11) (12) (13) (14) (15) (16) (17) (18) (19) (20)

Dany is a threatening and subversive character, not a shallow white feminist, and that is exactly why she was hated and why she was killed off

Dany’s ending and what it says about class and privilege

The ending is offensive and regressive

On the comparison of Dany to Nazism and Facism in the show: (1) (2) (3) (4) (5) (6)

The ending validated racism and xenophobia: (1) (2)

Best ruler doesn’t want to rule BS

Daenerys does not represent imperialism, and the show was just a cautionary tale against changing the status quo

Feminized power is corrupt, Dany was vilified for not giving people choices, but King Bran renders choice irrelevant for being destiny personified

Does GRRM want his message to be like the show, that centrism is good?

The portrayal of the Dothraki in the show: (1) (2)

GOT’s ending was not subversive

The ending was nihilistic

You're doomed to be like your parents and can't escape your genes

On the arguments that "the best ruler is the one who doesn't want to rule" and that "power corrupts"

Mental illness and genetic determinism in the GOT's ending

The classism in what the show did to Daenerys, Edmure and Gendry

The ending perpetuates the idea that biological heritage defines people

Dany's ending and the perpetuation of harmful stereotypes about people with mental health problems

About the show’s pro-slavery views

Sansa was xenophobic towards Dany

The ending of Game of Thrones makes House of the Dragon pointless and bleak

[secretlyatargaryen]

the-king-andthe-lionheart replied to your post

The only reason these people make the claims that classism and even feudalism is okay and good, is because they know Sansa has had no growth in this regard. So they need to defend it in order to convince themselves and others that she will be queen at the end.

However with the way GRRM writes I highly doubt we’ll be getting the conservative, classist, misogynist, and ableist ending that D&D portrayed. I don’t expect huge changes, but I expect something considering how he portrays the evils of that society.

I don’t agree that Sansa has had no growth in this regard. In fact, though it isn’t a conscious thought she has, I would connect Sansa’s act of realizing she can save Dontos as a growth from the Trident where she sat by helplessly while Joffrey was abusing and might have killed an innocent. I think she’s grown but I think a lot of her fans don’t want to accept her journey as one of growth, they want to pretend she was flawless to begin with.

I agree though that the obsession with her being queen, and especially the way they portrayed it on the show, is contrary to the growth that needs to happen and that fits in thematically with the story GRRM is telling. A lot of show Sansa fans like to talk about how she provided food for the smallfolk and talk about her being a good queen the way that Sansa, as a twelve year old in ACOK, talks about being a good queen and saying that she’ll “make the people love her.” It’s a very paternalistic style of rulership, especially when contrasted with Daenerys as an agent of social change and real, actual justice. A lot of Sansa stans who see Sansa as the good queen often fall into this kind of prejudiced thinking because it’s an idea that romanticizes the belief that feudalism can be good under the “right” ruler, which is simply not true. Not that Dany and her fans don’t sometimes fall into the same trap, but at least Dany is self aware in this regard.

[asknightqueendany]

Hey you stupid fucking bitch. read the fucking ask again and than take a fucking read comprehension class you fucking cunt. I said D&D didn't deserve ALL the hate, I didn't fucking say they didn't deserve any of the hate. All I was saying was that some of the hate should fall on GRRM's shoulders too you stupid fucking cunt. Holy shit are you one retarded motherfucking bitch, it is clear the only thing you will ever be good for his to serve as some guys cocksleeve. Fuck you forever, you whore.

Question. Who is a stupid fucking bitch with no reading comprehension?

Answer. You are a stupid fucking bitch with no reading comprehension. You probably have to read this comment several times to get what i am saying.

Wow. Couldn’t get your point across once so you had to send this three times. Wow anon. Wow. 

I’d like to invite everyone to read the ASK that this anon is referencing and then ask you all to tell me whether or not a response this insulting and this strongly worded is necessary.

I mean, the answer is no. No one should ever talk to another person like this. 

But in the context...

Did I call you a stupid fucking cunt who’s only purpose will be to serve as some guys cocksleeve anon? Hmm? Did I insult you? Did I call into question your reading comprehension? Did I even say anything negative toward you at all?

1) Yes, my answer veered from your original ask purpose. You wanted to hate on George in a George vs Tolkien comparison.

I addressed that. I told you I don’t read Tolkien and don’t even really read fantasy. So in this regard, I’m not the person to send this ask to. I don’t like these fantastical epics, normally, and only read ASOIAF because I got into the show first and loved Dany’s character. 

That should have been enough for you to know that, no, it’s not my fault my answer didn’t please you, it’s your fault for sending it to me. I never mention Tolkien on my blog anyone. Plenty of other ASOIAF blogs do talk about Tolkien. I never do. So why the fuck did you send me an ask comparing him to George when I’m not even a fan? My answer was never going to be anything satisfying to you simply for that fact alone. So get the fuck over yourself darling.

2) Secondly, Because I couldn’t address your ask in great detail, I honed in on one aspect of your ask that I do have knowledge in and experience on. So I talked about your comparing D&D to George. I even agreed with you:

Because you had said in your second ask:

I addressed this one specific part of your ask because, as stated, I couldn’t address the Tolkien comparison. Not sure if you know this anon, but I’m allowed to say whatever the fuck I want on my blog...? Or were you unaware. If you were unaware, allow me to educate you now.

I can say whatever the fuck I want on my blog anon, including my asks. I am not in any way required to answer your questions and I am certainly not required to agree with your fucking opinion. Which I’m sure a few people on this site who are well versed in Tolkien vs Martin would disagree with you anyway. 

I am not your little ask monkey, waiting day in and day out for your asks, so I can feed you back responses that stroke your ginormous ego (and tiny pecker), just so you can get off on the fact that some nameless random broad over the Internet agrees with your stupid fucking opinions. 

I have a life. I have a job. 

The fact that I even keep this ask box open, especially after the series end and how badly it ended, is incredibly generous. Most of my followers see it as such and to most of my askers, thank you for always being respectful and kind. 

To you anon, crawl back into your mom’s basement and wank yourself to your usual misogynistic edgelord incel torture porn. 

BTW Tolkien is overrated as FUCK. 

[gizkasparadise]

myghcst

  myghcst  myghcst  ...

there was just so many things wrong with the entire affair. dany was just… butchered in every regard, but the fact they took so many other characters down too in order to make it possible is abysmal. i’m a fan of dany but i also understand and enjoy villain turns when the greater good is the intention. see: revan. love that bitch! they just did nothing to justify it, nothing to explain it. i loved most of the characters before season 8 and left it with such bitterness.

i think maybe sansa escaped the mass Death of Characterization but she was the only one (arya also came close but her saying she’s never going back north killed me inside). tyrion in particular wasn’t even a character by the end so much as a mouthpiece for D&D

i would’ve been down for dark!dany too, but it left a bad taste in my mouth because:

about 3 hours of run time in a 800 hour+ show 

fridging missandei

Mad Queen vs. Mad Queen (ugh) / engaging in the misogynistic tropes that go with it (ShE CAnt ruLE SHe’S IrRAtioNAL)-- she doesn’t have to go ~mad~ to be a villain 

making characters who didn’t give a shit if she was a woman suddenly saying it made her a less viable candidate

the end of the show having a council of all white dudes (-brienne, but im not sure what her role in the council was vs. being a kingsguard??) INCLUDING BRONN, after murdering off the two women in power

it took jon ten minutes to go from i can’t kill her she’s my queen to stabby stab stab time

jon is the one that kills her 

the iron throne got more gravitas than her actual death

the logical gaps (varys poisoning her meals (he’d be waaaay more competent if killing her was his goal) and being like HEY JON GUESS WHAT? tyrion being positioned as intelligent/clever when his decisions VERY MUCH indicate otherwise?

anyway this was all v gross

[ragnarssons]

Actually can we stop calling Daenerys “mad”? That’s again some shit narrative pushed by D&D who apparently don’t know anything about what kind of real madness had destroyed Aerys. Daenerys on ep5 no matter what she does, is in no way portrayed as how her father was when he was screaming “burn them all!!!” all around, laughing about people burning, and convinced that from the ashes of King’s Landing, he would rise as a literal dragon. Yes, the scaly creature with wings!  Nop, Daenerys isn’t mad on ep5 she’s become evil. She’s become nothing but a villain, with nothing from the narrative to back this up: it’s a turn, just coming out of nowhere. And D&D have no ground to make this storyline stand on, so they’re acting as if Daenerys was “crazy” all along, because “of the Targaryen gene”. Bitch, if that was the truth, then we should have seen Daenerys talking to trees, hearing voices or whatever, or Daenerys mumbling about how she should herself become a dragon and being paranoid around everyone surrounding her. But nop: actually there is literally no foreshadowing for “Mad!Queen” Daenerys. None. Don’t come and say “she crucified the masters!!!!” because that’s not a sign of madness in the sense of Aerys-Targaryen-like Madness (as implied on the show). Daenerys isn’t like her father because the writers have decided to make her into something else. Something that is not victim of some mental illness running in her family, but someone who just flips a switch and goes from saving the world on 8x03 to literally wanting to burn the world on 8x05 with no justification, no reason, no explanation. All in all, D&D didn’t turn Dany into a “Mad Queen” and I’m tired of people saying that as if she was in any way like her father. Her father was mad in the clinical sense. Daenerys IS NOT. That’s the problem with that storyline, she isn’t schizophrenic, she doesn’t hear voices; nop she just goes straight up to “murder mode” without any explanation or reason, while remaining sane. So stop calling it “madness” because that’s some ableist shit! And D&D using “she’s a Targaryennn!” to justify how much they ruined her character, are them using some kind of fake excuse to hide how much they just wanted to get rid of her because they couldn’t handle her ending on the Throne, as a hero. This isn’t about how “Dany’s coin has flipped” or whatever, because it’s never flipped on the mad side and it still hasn’t to this point! That’s why having Varys and Tyrion and whatever to throw that now to justify them turning on her is just shit storytelling! It’s just D&D destroying her character and everything she’s stood for so far. Why? Well I’ll let you speculate why, I mean, idk, let’s look at how they’ve been writing female characters so far I guess? And yeah, ofc anti Dany people and misogynistic a-holes who always hated her will totally stand by this storyline. But the rest of the fandom’s reaction just proves how ridiculous it is, and how they had to turn GoT into a joke of itself, just to "trigger” this turn in Dany’s character. This story isn’t about how “oh tragic, Daenerys turned mad right at this moment!” it’s about how they made her turn EVIL for the sake of it, to justify getting rid of her at the end of the show, and refusing her what she’s been fighting for her entire life- the Iron Throne. Again- why? Idk I feel like they’ve talked about cocks quite a lot, regarding “legitimacy” to the Throne.

[the-king-andthe-lionheart]

Yes, exactly.  Arya is a natural leader while Sansa is a natural follower, and this goes hand in hand with the name of their wolves and where those wolves are at now.  Nymeria is named after a warrior queen and leading a huge pack of wolves in the Riverlands, while Lady (who represented the North) died.  To me this tells me that Sansa is only destined to be a Lady in the South, likely the Vale, and that Arya is going to be Queen in the North or at the very least Lady of Winterfell, who will be regarded as a Queen by others and in history, just like Nymeria of Ny Sar, despite only being a princess.  And to be honest I don’t see anything wrong with Sansa being a follower or just being a Lady in the endgame, because this doesn’t take away anything from her.  She could still develop excellent skills at leading, in time, and she could be the unofficial Lord of the Vale.  She could also be involved in actual politics by being on Bran or Dany’s King’s/Queen’s Council as well.  

Sansa not becoming queen won’t diminish her character or her story, and that’s because she has shown zero skills of being able to pull off being a successful queen, and also because her arc just doesn’t seem to be leading in that direction.  I don’t see why GRRM would do a “be careful what you wish for” scenario with Sansa and Arya (Sansa being betrothed to the King and possibly becoming Queen, and Arya wanting to have adventures and to run away from King’s Landing) if that’s the ending he’s going to give them, like how does that make sense?  And I suppose you could look at it and say that perhaps GRRM is subverting that and instead of making Sansa Queen Consort, beholden to a man, he’s going to make her Queen Regnant, but I just can’t see why GRRM would make someone Queen in the endgame that is a stickler to the status quo.  Also this doesn’t even account for the lack of foreshadowing and leadership skills, or the fact that the North would never accept a female ruler who didn’t earn their respect, despite being a Stark (and in their world, a woman who gains respect from a man when it comes to leading is usually because the woman is being proactive and acting “masculine”, such as a warrior woman.  They would have to prove themselves worthy, and I doubt providing the Vale army and giving away Littlefinger’s hoards of goods will be enough to prove her worth to them).  

Honestly, it is misogynistic and unfair, but that’s the world GRRM created.  Sansa’s ending in GOT made little sense because of this, and I personally think the reason why D&D sent Arya away indefinitely was because they knew how little sense it made for the North to rally behind Sansa, when she literally did nothing to prove her worth as a leader, and only got the job through nepotism.  Realistically, if it was down to Arya and Sansa being leaders of the North as Stark’s (especially if Arya was the one to end the Long Night), you could be sure that those Northerner’s would have been rallying around Arya instead of Sansa, despite Sansa being older.  This was one of the most unrealistic things about the last season of GOT in my opinion, that no one was nominating Arya to be Queen for ending the Long Night.

Stansas :arya could never be queen. She has no foreshadowing(lol). She has nothing to do with Northern politics(LOL as if the entire adwd Northern plot isn't centered around aryas claim)

Meanwhile in the north :

"What men want does not matter. Winter is almost upon us, boy. And winter is death. I would sooner my men die fighting for the Ned's little girl than alone and hungry in the snow, weeping tears that freeze upon their cheeks. No one sings songs of men who die like that. As for me, I am old. This will be my last winter. Let me bathe in Boltonblood before I die. I want to feel it spatter across my face when my axe bites deep into a Bolton skull. I want to lick it off my lips and die with the taste of it on my tongue."

[thelegendofclarke]

You can’t really blame people for being skeptical about you disliking daenerys so much when you have never offered a logical explanation for it and she is also very similar to a lot of your other favorite characters. If you think of it from an outsider’s perspective, it’s very suspicious to say the least.

You know what’s funny? Your timing is impeccable af anon… I was literally just talking to someone the other day about how I have no fucking clue where I am spewing all this ~Dany Haterade~

Like, I have maybe actually talked about her in any kind of detail once. All the rest of the time it’s been people telling me I’m a hypocrite and a misogynist and a bitter cockblocked Jonsa shipper, and me basically replying “sure Jan what ever you say” or just not replying at all. In fact I have actually, purposefully, specifically gone out of my way to avoid posting anything that could ever possibly be construed as anti Daenerys or reflect negatively on her.

So I guess I am just not understanding what parameters you are working with here? I mean yeah I rarely reblog her at all and I have her blacklisted tbh, but not because I mind seeing her on my dash or reading other peoples’ opinions on her. It’s because I honestly just got sooo damn sick and tired of seeing people complaining about anti Daenerys wank. That was seriously by faaarrr the majority of the Daenerys content, outside of fanart, that was on my dash. And I truly and sincerely could not look at one more “if you don’t like Daenerys you are misogynistic trash and I hate you unfollow me” style vague post. I really, really couldn’t. But that was my issue to solve and it’s my prerogative not to post about her. If not posting or talking about something automatically means you hate it then g o d I must hate so much shit.

I just really don’t get this at all and it’s been w i l d tbh because this is pretty much the first time I have ever felt the need to idk, censor myself? On my thoughts or feelings or opinions on something? In regards to multiple things in fandom tbh. In order to not be like, ~unfriended~ or reprimanded or judged, or something like that I guess? By people who I would normally trust not to judge me on shit like fandom theories or my opinions on a fictional freaking character? I mean, besides spending holidays with my uber conservative basically alt right relatives, that is. But I have censored myself in fandom, I have made a conscious effort to do so. And yet here I am, apparently a Proud Member of the He Man Misogynist Dany Haterz Club and getting shit like this in my Ask… So now even keeping my mouth shut is getting me in trouble? And I have honestly no idea as to why.

So no, I do not hate Daenerys ffs; I have literally never said anything of the sort. And yes, I have given an explanation of my feelings on her character; just because you don’t agree with me, doesn’t make anything I’ve said illogical. And no, I am absolutelyfuckingnot doing it again. Good talk.

[kateofthecanals]

For The (Not)Watch: Episode 7.2

Exposition Theatre Presents...

Apologies for the lateness of this recap, I assume many of these topics have already been covered elsewhere, but I have things to say nonetheless!!! The episode was far from the worst, though far from the best. Inoffensive for the most part and even included some rather nice moments (if you ignore the broader context... so, you know, the usual). Let’s start at the beginning...

It was a dark and stormy night. Tyrion was regaling the Dragon Queen about the circumstances of her own birth, which was a treacherous omen of things to come. Dany and Varys then decide to have a conversation that should have happened before he had even stepped aboard her ferry to Dragonstone. She confronts him about plotting to assassinate her back in Season 1 and he’s just like “whaddayagonnado?” and she makes him swear that he’ll actually tell her she sucks before actually betraying her. I’m sure that’ll work out swell. Varys assures her...

And Tyrion vouches for Varys because he’s “an excellent judge of character.”

Then Grey Worm has some kinda psychic episode and suddenly jumps in to tell Dany that Melisandre is in da house to say welcome to the neighborhood. Dany is cool with her being there because apparently the red priests helped bring “peace” to Meereen (really? when did that happen?) and Mel starts speaking to Dany in High Valyrian.

**We interrupt this program to bring you a prophecy that should have been mentioned 7 seasons ago. Had D&D realized this was actually an important plot point, they would have seeded it earlier. We now return to your regularly scheduling programming.**

Dany’s bummed that she’s not the Prince That Was Promised because she’s not a “prince”, then Missandei interrupts to tell Dany, WHOSE FIRST LANGUAGE IS HIGH VALYRIAN, that her interpretation of the prophecy is wrong -- the PTWP is totes gender-neutral, y’all! Mel won’t confirm or deny if Dany is the PTWP because even she is apparently skeptical of her own bullshit; instead she just tells Dany that she NEEDS to hook up with this cat Jon Snow, who “defeated” the Boltons and became “King in the North”. Dany’s like...

So is Tyrion, tbh. He jumps in and vouches for Jon too (remember, Excellent Judge of Character!) and because Dany has no opinions or thoughts of her own and can’t even properly translate her own mother tongue, she’s like okay cool, send a raven to Jon (where did they get ravens?).

Well, it must have been a FedEx Express Overnight™ raven cuz we cut immediately to Winterfell where Jon is already reading Tyrion’s letter. Sandra questions whether or not it’s really Tyrion but Jon says it’s legit because he included a Book Quote from the first season. And even though Jon got to know Tyrion pretty well on their journey to the Wall, he decides to be Condescending Ally and asks Sandra her opinion. Sandra then fulfills her “Tyrion’s such a nice guy!” quota for the season before Davos strolls up to finally deliver some dialogue. He has a “eureka” moment when he realizes that dragons can kill white walkers. Jon asks if he thinks he should meet with Dany as she Tyrion requested, and Davos says no, it’s too dangerous, but they should keep that shit in their back pocket for future consideration...

Then we hop to King’s Landing... Side Note: not only do all the main female characters dress alike this season, they all sound alike too. Seriously, watch these first three scenes with your eyes closed -- they all sound exactly the same!

Anyway, Cersei is in the throne room addressed Randyll “What Sword?” Tarly and some leftover Tyrells to try and convince him to join her cause against Dany, and Randyll doesn’t seem at all bothered by being ordered around by a woman. (So, I guess it’s cool for Arya and Brienne to be retconned as misogynists, but actual canon misogynists like Randyll Tarly are suddenly super cooperative and tolerant? Okay.) Cersei then starts throwing mad shade at Dany and her dad: “You remember the Mad King and the horrors he inflicted on his people...” <-- says the woman who literally did the thing that Jaime KILLED Aerys for only THREATENING to do. At this point, I began to wonder if it was actually common knowledge that Cersei blew up the sept; I guess there’s some plausible deniability, but Cersei herself doesn’t exactly seem like she has anything to hide in that regard...

After the meeting breaks up, Jaime takes Randyll aside and introduces himself to Dickon, who seems to be played by a new actor now. (BTW, how many times do you think D&D giggled like 10-year-olds at the name “Dick-On”?) Jaime questions why they even came, and Randyll says, “If my queen summons me, I answer the call. And I’ve heard what she does to those who defy her.” Which answers my question above -- he DOES know about the sept. Yet, just like kinslaying and Guest Right, terrorism is just NBD anymore. Randyll then waffles in his allegiance to Cersei and Olenna Tyrell, and I’m just.... Please. If Olenna, who is not even a Tyrell by blood, was really the only Tyrell left, do you REALLY think Randyll wouldn’t bounce at the first opportunity?? Then Jaime makes Randyll an offer he can’t refuse (Warden of the South) because the King’s Landing plot is basically The Godfather now.

Down at the Citadel, Archmaester Slughorn has a terminal prognosis for Jorah and he suggests that he just fall on his sword and get it over with. Jorah, I assume, is too busy wondering how he’s gonna make sweet love to Khaaleeesiiii with a stone wang...

Then we jump back to KL where Qyburn and Cersei are taking a little stroll through the dungeons where the dragon skulls are. Cersei says that Robert would come down there sometimes to look at them, or to band random whores, which seems extremely unlikely since Robert had an aneurysm every time the Targaryens were even mentioned. Cersei questions how they’re actually gonna be able to defeat Dany’s dragons, and Arnold Qyburnegger insists that “If it bleeds, we can kill it.” He then reveals his TOP SECRET MASTER PLAN!!! A really big crossbow. Somewhere Daryl Dixon just got the most massive boner...

Then we’re back on Dragonstone where Yara and Ellaria are yelling at Dany to just attack Dragonstone now while they have the opportunity and the forces. Tyrion’s all, “I got this, babe” and proceeds to lay out Dany’s plan for Dany (is it even Dany’s plan?), because why should the supposed leader and aspiring Queen be the one to give her troops their marching orders herself? The few lines she did have were just direct quotes from Tyrion. Anyway, Dany Tyrion tells Yara to escort Ellaria back to Dorne for some reason I don’t remember and I couldn’t help but wonder why they didn’t think of this before dragging Ellaria and Olenna all the way to Dragonstone just to send them back south again. BTW, D&D thought this scene was super Feminist because 4 women were in one scene together. I’m not making that up...

Then Dany and Olenna have a one-on-one in which Olenna delivers the first meme of Season 7: “You’re a dragon! Be a dragon!” T-shirts are now available in the HBO store. (Yes, I’m serious.)

We then take a break from “Game of Thrones” to bring you a very special episode of “As the Grey Worm Turns”. So, blah blah blah, Missandei visits Grey Worm in his quarters, whines about him leaving, he calls her his “weakness”, kisses her, she immediately disrobes -- seriously, that shit came off QUICK like

...and then he goes down on her. SIGH okay look... Yes, it was a lovely scene in and of itself, and I know this was D&D’s attempt at something “sweet” for a change, and YES it was the first CONSENSUAL sex scene we’ve gotten since, what, Season 3? But here’s the problem... First of all, there are so many other actual CANON romances in ASOIAF that have gone completely or virtually unexplored on this show, so for them to just invent this “romance” between a eunuch and a character who is actually supposed to 10 just feels utterly inane. Let’s be honest, guys, this scene happened for 2 reasons: (A) they wanted to see Nathalie Emmanuel naked again, and (B) penises are for sexual assault and comic relief ONLY on this show.

So, back at the Citadel, Slughorn is droning on about one thing or another when Sam says he found a couple of recorded cases of greyscale being cured, but Sluggy says don’t believe the hype because the procedure is too dangerous and risky and was outlawed. But... you guys... greyscale is like Westerosi AIDS, so even if the procedure is “risky”, don’t you think it’s worth maybe EXPLORING at the very least??? Anyway, I’m sure you can already guess what’s gonna happen next...

Yes, Sam sneaks into Jorah’s quarters with an assortment of paraphernalia, and the same dude who spent a solid 5 minutes last episode dry-heaving over some turds has suddenly decided he’s now Doogie Howser. He offers Jorah some rum to drink to dull the pain, since apparently milk of the poppy was outlawed while we weren’t looking, and it turns out that the cure for greyscale is to just scrape it off like an old paint job. Huh.

BTW, what the hell is with this new obsession with juxtaposing bodily fluids with food all of a sudden?? New fetish?? Anyway, that pie looked AMAZING. We’re not at what I assume is the Inn at the Crossroads where Arya is chilling waiting for her meal, special delivered by Iron Chef Hot Pie! She begins to eat and drink like a pig in the manner of her soulmate The Hound and makes a joke about baking one or two pies (BECAUSE SHE’S THE MARIE CALLENDER OF MURDER PIES GET IT); there’s also another brief reference to Briennebowl (sigh). Turns out, even fucking Hot Pie knows about Cersei blowing up the sept, ffs. He also knows something else that, for some reason, Arya doesn’t -- that the Starks took back Winterfell from the Boltons. Arya is SHOOK and frankly so am I because she spent 2 whole weeks at the Twins and NO ONE mentioned this?? Even the Lannister soldiers from last episode never brought it up?? Anyway, Arya’s like “oh shit I gotta go” and Hot Pie tells her that he prefers her as a girl because she’s “pretty” and OH how I wish she would have gotten more of a reaction from that, but then again this is GoT where only “idiot” girls would respond to being called pretty... When she leaves the inn, she hangs a louie north instead of south, having decided to keep her murdering more local.

This actually wasn’t that bad a scene, to be honest. I liked how Arya looked genuinely detached as she casually made references to murders she committed or would be committing... and then how she completely snaps out of it when she hears that Jon is in Winterfell. I think the success of this scene rests solely on Maisie’s shoulders though.

Speaking of WF, we then cut to Jon who is doing the thing where the scene opens on someone just staring blankly at a map. Maester Whatshisnameagain comes in to deliver Sam’s raven, cuz the Citadel is cheap as fuck and only uses UPS Ground. We then IMMEDIATELY jump to another council meeting where Jon announces Sam’s “news” that Dragonstone is lousy with dragonglass, and that this info has confirmed his decision to answer Dany’s Tyrion’s summons after all. And because Jon can NEVER seem to clue Sandra in on his plans BEFORE meetings, he blindsides her once again, prompting her to ONCE AGAIN speak up in defiance. Yes, it’s all just lame, manufactured, forced tension on D&D’s part, and what makes it even more infuriating is that it frames Sandra as a brat Every. Time. Though, in this case, everyone else in the room seems to agree with her, including Feminist Icon™ Lyanna Mormont -- Jon is their King and should NOT abandon them when winter is upon them. Jon’s like, “Hey YOU guys are the ones who wanted me to be KiTN, I never asked for it!” Which is a super cool thing to say in front of the rightful heir whose claim you stole. But hey, all is forgiven I guess when Jon oh-so generously declares that he’s leaving WF in Sansa’s hands while he’s gone. Hey, I kidnapped your child, would you mind babysitting for me for a bit? So, basically Jon abandons the North like he did the Night’s Watch, and aren’t we so glad that Sansa’s claim was completely ignored in favor of this super reliable dipshit?

Before he leaves, Jon ducks down into the crypts to meditate in front of Ned’s effigy when Littlefucker rolls up on him like a creep and Jon’s just OVER IT before it’s even begun...

LF then declares that he “loves” Sandra (cue every puking gif ever), and Jon immediately knocks his gross ass into the wall and tells him he’ll kill him if he ever touches his sister. Frankly, LF seemed kinda into it... ;-P

Jon then leaves and mounts his horse, waving goodbye to Sandra from her permanent perch on the walkway, and she’s all

Out in the woods, Arya’s building a fire when she notices her horse acting freaked out. She suddenly finds herself surrounded by VERY BAD BOYS snarling and growling at her when a huge figure comes up behind her and then...

Yeah, I admit it, I straight up cried seeing Arya and Nymeria together again. Of course, this is GoT, though, and we can’t have nice things, so it was shortlived. Yes, in the grand tradition of D&D reintroducing forgotten characters just to kill off/get rid of them again, I present: NYMERIA. So I went from tears to rage in less than a minute. These fucking assholes are more concerned about $$$$ than the VERY CRUCIAL FACT that the Stark kids are bonded to their wolves FOR LIFE and are GODDAMN WARGS, period. I hate them so much.

The next scene was filmed through a dirty coffee filter and I couldn’t see a damn thing, but horrible accents + cattiness = must be the Sand Snakes! Oh joy! I dunno what those fucking accents were; they sounded like fucking Apollonia when she first learned English, and I wanted to kill myself. Things just got worse from there when we jumped to another part of the ship (oh yeah, we’re on a ship btw) where Ellaria and Yara are cozying up to each other in front of Theon and begin to taunt him by feeling each other up and MAN I can’t wait for these bitches to die. The gropefest is mercifully interrupted then by the ship getting rammed, and they all run outside to see Euron’s sails in the firelight. Euron Both-Hands himself then makes one helluva entrance before getting down to some good ol’ murderin’. It’s a complete clusterfuck that’s not very well lit but I could see enough to know that he killed Obara and Nym...

PRO TIP: If you’re trying to establish the next big villain on your show, don’t have him kill off 2 of the most universally despised characters.

Not surprisingly, they spare Ellaria and Tyene “Bad Pussy” Sand (AKA the one Sand Snake most willing to take her top off), meanwhile Euron and Yara face off against one another. Euron gets the upper hand and is holding a knife to Yara’s throat as he calls to Theon. Theon looks back and forth between his shitperson sister and his psychopath uncle and decides mmmmmm NOPE

I’ve seen plenty of people criticizing Theon for this, and I think it’s utter bullshit. Like, I honestly believe that scene was intended to show us that Theon was still highly traumatized and triggered in that moment, much like Sandor during the Blackwater. I do not think that we, as viewers, were meant to look at that and come away thinking that Theon was being shitty or a coward. BUT HERE’S THE THING: you cannot spend 6 seasons conditioning your audience to believe that experiencing genuine trauma is a “weakness” or “foolish” and then expect everyone to be all cool and understanding when you suddenly decide to go for “realism”. Especially when last season featured a scene in which Yara told Theon to either get over it or just kill himself and it was framed as LEGITIMATELY GOOD ADVICE (which D&D even confirmed as such)!! So yeah, a retcon in which Theon’s trauma is addressed in a very logical and meaningful way is obviously going to receive backlash. This is the same show where Sansa had to be raped in order to be “strong”, so clearly a male character who’s experienced similar trauma should just “get over it” too, right? THAT is the lesson GoT is teaching its viewers, so it stands to reason that they would revolt when a character has a genuine PTSD episode. Not to mention the fact that Yara totally did not deserve Theon’s help or protection after the way she had treated him. Not to mention how SHE left HIM behind with Ramsay!! And later blamed HIM for it! Shit, I would leave her ass too. So, yeah, this scene was, I believe, intended to show that, no, Theon is NOT over it, because yelling at someone to just stop being sad about their trauma is not a magical cure. But it’s too late for this show to try and be sensitive about these sorts of things, because your viewers have been programmed NOT to accept it. So the one time D&D&Co choose to be authentic, it falls on deaf ears. No surprise there.

Quite a note to end on, for sure. Next week looks to be more of the same, so I’m stocking up on Red Bull now...

[fedonciadale]

How do you think the GA will respond to s8, assuming dany doesn't end up on the iron throne. Most people support her on the throne and if political jon theory ends up being true, I can imagine a lot of people responding that dany not ending up on the throne and getting used by Jon is anti-feminist and showrunner fanfic. I'm not looking forward to the response of the GA bc even if season 8 ends up being wellwritten and does sansa's character justice, the GA will just make it all about dany...

Dear nonny,

I'm not sure about that. In my experience casual viewers are far less invested in Da€nerys when her stans want us to believe. From all the Jonsa theories I share with casual viewers I meet DarkDany is always the one theory they immediately buy. Their eyes light up and they say 'yes, this would be so ecciting'. They immediately get it. I've yet to meet a casual viewer even some that like Da€nerys who was not excited and actually immediately convinced. That ties in with my gut feeling that Da€nerys is one of the characters that was transformed well to screen and that they did this all on purpose. Our 'bet who will die on GoT' at work has Cersei on top, immediately followed by Da€nerys. Casuals see that her arc is an arc of hubris.

Political Jon is another matter. Most say that they think it is an interesting twist but that Jon is too dumb. I think once they realise he is not too dumb they will buy it.

Casual viewers are in it for the visuals and the twists and some don't even want to think too much on it, because they want to be surprised. I think it will be easy to get casual viewers on board.

As for the feminist angle. I didn't realise feminism means that from now on the women have to end on top in every novel an movie...

No, honestly I think feminism should be about having as many multi layered characters as the men and DarkDany with a great 'villain origin story' actually is a feminist icon, because what usually is preserved for male villains, the complicated origin that makes them believable and even relatable (up to a point), is done so well for her. Da€nerys is not the embodiment of a trope, she is not 'evil seductress', 'evil witch' or even 'evil manipulator', she is the 'hero in her own mind', whose reasons make sense to her and whose reasons we can understand - if hopefully not approve. [Just as an aside, I really, really hope that D stans would not support a woman like that irl].

So, I actually think the GA will love season 8. They'll enjoy the twists and the rug pulled... They'll say : I totally did not see that coming. But the thing is that it will make sense in hindsight. The GA might have eaten up the Jon€rys romance but if it fails they probably will not cry, but will ask themselves : where was this hinted at?

The response of Jon€rys shippers and D stans will be different. They will claim the show is a fanfic and that the books will be different and will try to tell us that the show writers and GRRM are misogynistic. I've said it here on this blog, I have some issues with GRRM writing women, but the lack of multi -layered and very different women is not one of them. And I do have issues with some of the decisions D&D made for women on the show. But I do think that Da€nerys is the character they really put well to screen and they even did a better Cersei (although Lena is a huge factor there as well). I don't think D&D are misogynistic, but they tend to write more to shock and less in reflection of dubious TV viewing habits (like : let the audience feel for Sansa and let her become strong by bringing her to Ramsay, yikes). It's not they they reflect much on these subjects and it shows. They are definitely no allies of feminism. I try to keep my expectations low regarding the writing. The show 's writing was better when they still had the books, but I hope it will be up to season 6 at least. And we have two episodes done by Miguel Sapochnik.

Thanks for the ask!

[oadara]

So Daenerys has to be portrayed as this powerful, unyielding, fearless robot-like goddess. Nothing fazes her (for more than a moment at least). She gets her ass beaten but she's right back up intent on fighting on. The writers just can't have Daenerys show weakness, be afraid, resigned, tired, overwhelmed, want to run away like they did with Jon in season 6 huh? Of course they can't. How special snowflake of her.

They had Jon down in season 6 and another character had to build him up (a female character because the showrunners need to compensate for the years of having been labelled as misogynists). Is Daenerys so special they can’t have her go through the same? She’s too strong and perfect for that?

…

Jon selling out his people’s independence (on top of it not even giving them a heads-up first) just because he may personally like the girl is the worst case scenario in this whole thing. It makes him look 1000 x worse than Robb. A King should not act on his personal feelings. If he doesn’t have to do it (Daenerys being already willing to fight WWs) then doing it is unnecessary and purposeless. He’d betray the trust of his Lords for what? He already has her support. It’d happen for no reason.

Anon(s),

I’m going to lump all three of these asks together because I assume they all came from the same person. 

The perimeters of your asks are just littered with these simplistic dichotomies, black and white is the only way you and some others seem to think in terms of. You can’t seem to understand or grasp the complex layers of human emotions. And while I’ll be the first one to complain about D&D’s struggle to show the emotional complexity within Dany, having Dany devastated and inconsolable at the lost of her dragon chid and still wanting to get revenge for his death is still well within her character. 

You can’t equate what Jon went through in season 5/6 with what Dany will presumable will go through in season 7. Jon was betrayed by men who called themselves his brother, by a boy he mentored and acted as a big brother too. Being betrayed by your own people and dying because of that betrayal is obviously life altering. Because the world as you knew it is no more. On the other hand being attacked by an in-human horde of ice zombies who go on to kill one of your children is life altering in a completely different way. Dany wasn’t betrayed by the WW, they did what any enemy does, kill the other side. 

Jon had to be rallied because he didn’t know which side was which anymore. He thought he was on the right side, but the people who were suppose to be on the same side as him betrayed him. Can you understand how that can mess with a person? And of course, that’s not even getting into the fact that he died and came back to life. 

I fully expect Dany to be absolutely devastated and shocked at the death of Viserion. I also expect her to need the love and support of her friends to help her get through this. But I would never expect her to be someone that would give up when attached by an enemy. It’s just not who she is. This isn’t just the show, this is in the books too. The difference is that in the books we can read her thoughts, and while she shows the world a strong and unflappable woman, we know that inside she is riddle with doubt, loneliness, sadness and pain. That’s something that the show has had a hard time in portraying. 

Regarding Jon’s actions, as I said before, I don’t know the events leading up to it, I don’t know what is happening at the time he supposedly makes that decision and I’ll reserve judgement until I see it. But as a king Jon does not need to consult the lords to make a decision that will save a great deal of Northern lives. If the North can’t see that then quite frankly they don’t deserve the protection Jon is brining North. It’s false to compare Jon with Robb, while Robb’s decision weakens the North greatly, by breaking promises and eventually alliances. Jon’s decision creates alliances and strengthens the ability of the North to fight the WW and increases their probability of survival exponentially. 

Also, quit it with the fucking misogynist bullshit, the only one here who is being a misogynist is you. It just eats at you that Jon needed Sansa, his sister,  to help him find a purpose after dying and being brought back to life. And it kills you that Jon needs Dany to help fight the WW. You want Jon to be able to do it all on his own but he can’t, and the fact that he can’t makes him weak in YOUR mind. And you can’t stand that Sansa and Dany are show, in your estimation, to be stronger. Your world view is so warped that men can’t be weak and women can’t be strong. 

Sorry to disappoint you but the she-bosses of Westeros don’t give a fuck about you think. 

TTFN

[rainhadaenerys]

I'm not sure if you talked about this, but did the series ending altered your interest in the books? Because for me, no matter how many pretty words GRRM can use I'm not down for Mad Queen Dany or Bran the Broken king of the seven, oops, six kingdoms. If GRRM ever writes TWOW or ADOS I'll look to the spoilers before I decide if its worth reading it. This ending really did a number on me I'm still so mad and disappointed... Dany deserved so much better. Ps. Do you speak Portuguese?

Well, I don’t believe Dany would go mad. And if Bran is king, it’s going to be in a way that makes sense (probably King in the North, but if he’s King of Westeros I don’t think the bullshit of only the North having independence could happen). So, in this regard, I do have some faith that GRRM is a better writer than D&D, and I don’t think he’s a raging misogynist that would give Dany the ending she had in the show.

But even if I trust GRRM to be a better writer and give Dany and the other characters endings that are more worthy of them, I still don’t like what it seems to be the overall plot points of the ending. King’s Landing exploding because of wildfire was a theory that I always considered very likely to happen, and that I always disliked. I don’t like the idea that it makes the main female ruler in the books look like she’s “irresposible” in comparison to the main male rulers like Jon and Tyrion. Jon and Tyrion will have their darker moments as well, but none of them looks like they’ll have a huge mistake like this that will cost the lives of so many people. And given that the only other main female ruler we have that is comparable to Jon and Tyrion in terms of ruling storyline is Cersei, the women come out of this looking worse than the men. So even though I think Dany is stil going to be a hero and this will be an accident, I don’t like it.

I also don’t like the Starks being the ones in power in the end. First, because Bran being king seems very random and not consistent with what his arc and his story has been about. I don’t think a few chapters in ACOK, in which he watches Maester Luwin and Ser Rodrik rule and suggests that the Hornwood bastard should inherit because he’s thinking of Jon, is enough for me to think that he’ll be a good ruler or that he has experience, because he was not the one that was ruling and a lot of the time, he didn’t even understand what was happening (which is fine, he was a very small kid, but like I said, it doesn’t make him a ruler). I also don’t like the implication that only a person with omniscient power could be a good ruler. Why spend so many chapters exploring how other characters rule and how ruling is hard, if George is just going to have a deus ex machina solution to the question of ruling in the form of omniscient magical powers? Second, because one of the reasons I like Dany so much is that she’s a revolutionary character. Her arc, alonside Jon’s arc, is about making reforms in society. That’s not part of the arcs of the Starklings, so I can’t help but feel very disappointed that these characters will be the ones to rule. Even if the Starks decide to bring changes in society in the end, it’s not going to feel earned, because this is not what their arcs have been about, it’s what Dany’s and Jon’s arcs have been about. So it would just feel like the Starks are stealing Dany’s arc by being the ones to bring change.

About Dany’s death, I obviously think Dany dying as a villain is bullshit. But I also hate the idea of Dany dying as a hero, because I don’t think a heroic death is fitting for her. I don’t think sacrificing herself is the culmination of her arc. Dany’s arc is not about learning about the importance of self sacrifice. If Dany was a selfish queen that didn’t care about her people in the beginning, it would make sense for her character development to lead her to a point in which she realizes that she has a duty to her people and sacrifices herself for them. But Dany has always sacrificed herself for her people, she always knew what a queen’s duty was, she has always been selfless, so I don’t think sacrificing herself is a culmination of her character development, because she has been selfless from the beginning, it was not something she learned throughout her journey. I don’t think it makes sense for “self sacrifice” to be the big takeaway from her journey, but apparently, this is what we’ll get in the end. But you know what she did learn throughout her journey, what her character development really is about? Ruling. Dany learned how to rule, how to lead, and how to make changes in society. A fitting ending for her would have Dany using the political skills she learned. I don’t necessarily need her to be queen. But I would like if she at least did something to set up a new system, even if she doesn’t rule in the end. But it doesn’t look like this is going to happen, and this makes me feel like 90% of Dany’s story in Essos was completely pointless. Also, if GRRM wasn’t going to make Dany queen and wasn’t going to give her any political role at the end, THEN WHY DID HE MAKE HER THE BEST RULER IN THIS DAMN STORY???

I also think that if Jon and Dany have different endings (with Jon living and Dany dying, and none of them has any political importance), all of their parallels are also pretty pointless. Jon and Dany have way too many parallels, and this makes it feel like their stories are going to intertwine and have some great epic conclusion as a pay off of all those parallels. So anything less than epic, and anything that breaks their parallels (like one living and one dying) is going to be a huge let down for me.

So yes, the show ending did alter my interest in the books. I still love Dany just as much, but I’m less interested in the books, and I’m already anticipating that it’s going to be disappointing. Even if it’s better written, I still think that this ending wastes the character development of many characters, and it doesn’t end with the political change that I would like to see. It’s “unpredictable”, but I never wanted the ending to be unpredictable. I wanted thngs to pay off. Dany and Jon’s political storylines had to have some payoff somehow, but they won’t. So yeah, I’m not really looking forward to reading the books, I’ll only read them because I’m still hoping against hope that none of this happens.

And yes, I do speak Portuguese, it’s my mother tongue. I’m Brazilian.