#Classical languages

[hippocampuslikethreat]

In Tangeled, both in Czech and English, Flynn Rider's real name is Eugen (Evžen) which comes fron the Ancient Greek ευγενής /eugenés/ that literarly translates to "of good bloodline" used in the meaning as royal. Meaning, the name we all laughted at, because it's horrible is used as a foreshadowing in the movie. And since his character is nowhere near the original prince, it's all Disney's doing.

[lingthusiasm]

Lingthusiasm Episode 88: No such thing as the oldest language

It's easy to find claims that certain languages are old or even the oldest, but which one is actually true? Fortunately, there's an easy (though unsatisfying) answer: none of them! Like how humans are all descended from other humans, even though some of us may have longer or shorter family trees found in written records, all human languages are shaped by contact with other languages. We don't even know whether the oldest language(s) was/were spoken or signed, or even whether there was a singular common ancestor language or several.

In this episode, your hosts Gretchen McCulloch and Lauren Gawne get enthusiastic about what people mean when we talk about a language as being old. We talk about how classifying languages as old or classical is often a political or cultural decision, how the materials that are used to write a language influence whether it gets preserved (from clay to bark), and how people talk about creoles and signed languages in terms of oldness and newness. And finally, how a language doesn't need to be justified in terms of its age for whether it's interesting or worthy of respect.

Click here for a link to this episode in your podcast player of choice or read the transcript here.

Here are the links mentioned in the episode:

Lingthusiasm episode 'Tracing languages back before recorded history'

'My Big Fat Greek Wedding- Give me any word and I show you the Greek root' on YouTube

Glottolog entry for 'classical'

Wikipedia entry for 'Complaint tablet to Ea-nāṣir'

Wikipedia entry for 'Bath curse tablets'

Wikipedia entry for 'Cuneiform'

Wikipedia entry for 'Mesopotamian writing systems'

Wikipedia entry for 'Home Sign'

Lingthusiasm episode 'Villages, gifs, and children: Researching signed languages in real-world contexts with Lynn Hou'

Wikipedia entry for 'Al-Sayyid Bedouin Sign Language'

Wikipedia entry for 'Kata Kolok' (also known as Benkala Sign Language)

True Biz by Sara Nović on Goodreads

Gretchen's thread about reading True Biz

You can listen to this episode via Lingthusiasm.com, Soundcloud, RSS, Apple Podcasts/iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also download an mp3 via the Soundcloud page for offline listening.

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Lingthusiasm is on Bluesky, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Mastodon, and Tumblr. Email us at contact [at] lingthusiasm [dot] com

Gretchen is on Bluesky as @GretchenMcC and blogs at All Things Linguistic.

Lauren is on Bluesky as @superlinguo and blogs at Superlinguo.

Lingthusiasm is created by Gretchen McCulloch and Lauren Gawne. Our senior producer is Claire Gawne, our production editor is Sarah Dopierala, our production assistant is Martha Tsutsui Billins, and our editorial assistant is Jon Kruk. Our music is ‘Ancient City’ by The Triangles.

This episode of Lingthusiasm is made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial Share Alike license (CC 4.0 BY-NC-SA).

[thearchaicsmile]

Ancient Greek Word of the Day

τύχη | tyche (from τυγχάνω, "happen, come to pass") — fate, chance, fortune, success [or lack thereof]; the act of a god or other force that is beyond human control

[squid-with-five-eyes]

Not Strong Enough by boygenius translated into Latin!

Foramen atrum in culina

Horologia aberrant

Meliorare energia solum posset

Nescio ob causam sum

Modo quo sum

Non fortis tantum ut tui vir 

Conatus sum

Non possum sistere flabbelo

Torqueoque de rebus non occuratis

Spirans in exque

Aurigantes per ancram

Canentes “Flent Non”

Videsne nos ex via descobinari?

Nescio ob causam sum

Modo quo sum

Non fortis tantum ut tui vir 

Mentita sum

Affligo sole nunc spes tui

Animae dimidia alteram confundens

Coniveo arte

Semper angelus, deus numquam

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Semper angelus, deus numquam 

Nescio ob causam sum modo quo sum

Aliquis in procella est

Experior revelationes

Excitans sede antice, cassa paene 

De via antica erra nostri ique domum

Domum i sola

[femalefemur]

reading cicero like

[zenosanalytic]

Random Musings

So I just saw This Pyropes Fanart(It's Gr8: Plz Look at It) and, for whatever reason, THIS was the time that, thinking about them, it occurred to me that there's something Really Interesting going on with their names like:

We know that Terezi, at least, claimed Redglare as an ancestor, and Latula sees her as an alternate version of herself, and they're obviously all "related" in some sense as their culture defines it because 1)they all have the same symbol and 2)they all have the same type of lusus. But Terezi and Latula have "Classical" names and Redglare has a "English" one(And HALF of the Ancestors do, now that I think about it: Dualscar, Mindfang, Highblood, Redglare, Handmaid, Darkleer).

I don't really know what to do with this other than to point out that:

canonically by the time of Karkat and his crew this "English" linguistic tradition seems to have been excised from Troll society, and

with the exception of the Condesce it seems to have been a middle- and upper-class thing? Like: all of the "lowblood" ancestors have latin-derived titles(we never learn their names) and the "English" naming starts at Teal.

Which is interesting cuz I've typically headcanoned "Classical" elements in Troll to be historically upper-class and the "Vulgar/English" elements to be historically low ala our own society, but this naming thing seems to suggest it might be the other way around(of course there could have ALSO just been, like, an era where having "land-dweller" names was fashionable)? So when the trolls say something partially "Vulgar" like thermal hull instead of the wholly "Classical" Refrigerator, they're trying to be Fancy???

[ihavedonenothingright]

Always slightly saddened by how classics spaces on social media aren't really populated by people who like and study the languages most of this material is in. Some of that's a product of general inaccessibility (schools don't offer Latin or Greek, online materials are hard to come by), but I've also met people at uni who want to pursue classics degrees, but deliberately make their own majors instead to avoid taking languages. And that makes me sad. Particularly because learning the languages is what gives you the most cultural insight, and misinformation spreads so much faster when nobody knows what they're actually arguing.

But then again, I guess part of that could be how those classes are typically structured. I enjoy them, but not everyone else does. So maybe something more casual would help. And considering there's a lot of people on here who at least like greek mythos, I assume there's some who might want some casual, useful vocab, even if they don't want to get into the nitty-gritty of the grammar.

So with all that considered, would people be interested in sort of a cursory intro to Latin or Ancient Greek blog? It would mostly include things like "ways this word can be used" and "how to parse a sentence even if you're not super well-versed in the language" but I'm open to including more complex, technical stuff. Also I want to push the Nissus and Euryalus agenda on Tumblr, how come none of you are obsessed with the tragic queer footrace cheaters?

So:

[jayjtheunsispiciousmelodicathem]

Whoo boy learning ancient greek is gonna be a fun one

I've been learning Latin for about four years now, so this is going to be very interesting.

[little-bloodied-angel]

Guys, if anyone please knows someone who knows Latin and could help me translate something, it's just two sentences, I'm kinda desperate and would be grateful for any help

Signal boost if you don't know anyone

[classicsheritageposts]

⚔️ centurion-tertia Follow

Feminas incutiens pro fornicatione non decorus est

Incutiens Alexandrum Magnum pro fornicatione absolute decorus est

ratio Tumblris

🌬️ ineptus Follow

infidelis erat. ad suum uxorem.

🏺 vis-sensus Follow

iste homo quoque mortuus per multos centum annos fuerat hic est ridiculissimus nuntius qui unquam in vitam meam videbatur me

🌌 divinadorothea Follow

rei carissimae de isto nuntio:

sententia milia hominum alexandrum magnum scortum appellant

scortum quem antiquorum regum appellans

sententia homines Alexandrum Magnum INCUTIUNT quod Pessimi Scorti est ille INCUTITUR quod salsissimum scortillum est, APERTANS CRURA EA AD OMNES IN AULA

hoc fortasse incepit propterea quod homines improbationem pro infidelitate Alexandri Magni ad suum uxorem expresserunt - quod OP "incutiens pro fornicatione" et "Est-ne foedus ille infidelus erat" res idem cogitat

Alexander Magnus mortuus fuerat per CCX

CCX salsi, salsi annos

modus hoc ostenditur in tali CONVINCO SJW modi quando loquuntur de rege quo moechato est et MORTUUS FUERAT PER CCX ANNOS

verum quod locutiones "Incutiens pro fornicatione" que "Alexander Magnus" in idem sententia usi sunt

id est iam appellite id quod plerusque "incutiens pro fornicatione" cogitant ad Alexandrum Magnum.

Tunica eius nimis constricta, toga eius brevissimus, tu-ne VIDISTI quam saepe os pingit??? audivi iste Hephaestionem apud stabula fellavit ET in culo paedicabatur a Ptolemaei

vix cogito qui Alexander Magnus est

dies originis: prid. non. feb CXIII (BCE)

Felicem diem mortis Alexandri, Tumblri! MMCCCXLVII salti, salti anni.

[redvioletarts]

Latin Series: Fluctuat Nec Mergitur

[Image IDs: Seven image mockups of the same artwork on different products. The design features the words "fluctuat nec mergitur" in hand-lettered cursive above simple line art of waves. The text is either dark blue or white depending on the product. The images show this design on, in order: an aqua blue T-shirt, a black sweatshirt, a dark blue throw pillow, a white mug with a dark blue interior and handle, a dark blue tote bag, a light blue tote bag, and another dark blue throw pillow. End ID.]

"It is tossed by the waves but does not sink." A good personal motto if you feel like life, society, and your personal poltergeists keep trying to yeet you at every turn.

Want one of these to show up on your doorstep? Click your fave:

T-shirt ☆ Sweatshirt ☆ Pillow ☆ Mug ☆ Tote bags ☆ Pin

Artist's behind-the-scenes notes, a rejected early version of the design, and gratuitous man chest under the cut...

I really like how this design came out! I actually gave Canva a shot when I was designing this and a few others in the Latin series, but as you can see I didn't keep those early versions. A lot of print on demand folks love Canva. That's fine, but it doesn't work for me--I made a handful of designs in Canva and then noodled around with them myself and ended up liking my own versions better every time.

Canva's not bad for prototyping. But I couldn't get the kind of visual composition I wanted, the lines on some of the artwork were too thin and I didn't think they'd print up clearly, and it overall looked too perfect and starchy and not like something I made. Bleh.

So I ditched it and kept making my stuff by hand. It takes longer, but I have a distinct style Canva can't replicate.

(Krita beloved. <3)

As promised, here's the scrapped early Canva version of the design, and the mockup for an inactive product listing--I tried putting this design on a pair of men's swim trunks, but:

The mockup images available on PlaceIt are annoying to work with (they all either didn't show the design well or wanted to put it on both sides) and also I'm too ace for this.

They're expensive, so you have to charge a lot to make any profit.

All the men's swimwear options Printify offers come from China, and their sizing is weird. The 3XL has a 38-inch waist. (Possibly this is without the elastic stretched at all, but still.)

I mean, I'll reactivate it if someone wants... it is summer, after all.

You know what, fuck it. Have your man chest and buy the trunks too. Get 'em here. Make sure you check the size table in the description.

Might as well do the Invictus Maneo trunks too.

[Image ID #1: An early version of the Fluctuat Nec Mergitur design. It features the words "fluctuat nec mergitur" in a clean-looking script font and line art of a sailboat on a wave, in white on a plain black background. End ID.]

[Image ID #2: A product mockup photo of the current Fluctuat Nec Mergitur design on a pair of aqua blue swim trunks, in which a guy with a six-pack, a surfboard, and a man bun stands on a beach wearing the swim trunks and gazing into the distance with a sultry expression. Seems like he mighta skipped leg day though. I'm not convinced he's a surfer. End ID, I guess.]

[biggest-gaudiest-patronuses]

the fact that shakespeare was a playwright is sometimes so funny to me. just the concept of the "greatest writer of the English language" being a random 450-year-old entertainer, a 16th cent pop cultural sensation (thanks in large part to puns & dirty jokes & verbiage & a long-running appeal to commoners). and his work was made to be watched not read, but in the classroom teachers just hand us his scripts and say "that's literature"

just...imagine it's 2450 A.D. and English Lit students are regularly going into 100k debt writing postdoc theses on The Simpsons screenplays. the original animation hasn't even been preserved, it's literally just scripts and the occasional SDH subtitles.txt. they've been republished more times than the Bible

[prokopetz]

One of my favourite bits of linguistic trivia is that in Ancient Greek, the word ἰχώρ (cognate to the modern English "ichor") is attested in extant literature to mean both "the bodily fluid which gods possess instead of blood", and also "gravy", which implies several things about Ancient Greek culinary culture's attitude toward gravy.

[thearchaicsmile]

Ancient Greek Word of the Day

τρόπος | tropos (from τρέπω, "turn, divert") — way, course, direction; habit, custom, manner of speaking, a person's attitude, character or temperament; a recurring motif or figure of speech; a mode or style in music, poetry or philosophy; the moment at which an army routs on the battlefield

[squid-with-five-eyes]

I, Carrion (Icarian)... IN LATIN!!!!

translated one of my favorite songs off unreal unearth into latin for a project, the full translation is under the cut! credit to @buzzkillgirls for suggesting the song. my emphasis here was on making the translated lyrics fit the original meter more or less (which it does if you pronounce w elision) over exact one to one translation. ive got some notes at the end talking abt some of the choices i made! please feel free to ask me anything abt this and maybe suggest changes to the mistakes i inevitably made!

Si vertit ventus et ventum accedo

Tellus iter inveniat bruteum mihi

Gravitas mea est factus humiliter

Permeavi finem volatus

Pneuma una a caelo

Perveneram altam perrariorem

Pondus omnum onus oblatus nobis mundo est

Etsi adolesco, qui possum cado

Cum ego tollor verbis omnis tui

Si aliquis possum cadere umquam

Mundus mecum cadit

Causas me fluitare quam penna in mare

Cum sis gravis quam mundus

Quem tu manibus substas

Meditavi quodam die de fundamento

Video diu, amor o, caelum totum tenebas

Relinque, eo soli

Si necesse est, cara, innite mihi

Fluitabimus, sin cademus

Oro sole, non cade mecum

Habeo non pinnas, non habebo

Volans insuper mundum quem portas

Si alta cassum causant

Tum sim tui

Occidendus Icarus

Si vertit ventus et ventum accedo

Tellus iter inveniat bruteum mihi

Si cado illo die

Oro sole, non cade mecum

notes:

“Si vertit ventus et ventum accedo” bit of chiasmus here

“Tellus iter inveniate bruteum mihi” hyperbaton; no specific poetic reasoning other than i liked the flow of the line this way

“Gravitas mea est factus humiliter” "my weight has been made low" the specific word choice here ties into the song's theme of his love allowing him to let go of societal pressures, as gravitas means both weight and grandeur/importance, while humiliter is low, small, humble, obscure

“Meditavi quodam die de fundamento/Video diu, amor o, caelum totum tenebas” glosses as “one day i pondered about the foundation/i see, love, you were holding the entire sky for a long time” i really wanted to find an equivalent to “you all the way down” in roman cosmology i could use but nothing was super snappy

“Relinque, eo soli” instead of sky-bound, im saying “i go to the sun” as a more direct reference to icarus

“Habeo non pinnas, non habebo” so so proud of the parallel chiasmus structure here! when i wrote this i was mentally high fiving myself

“Si alta cassum causant” cassum is glossed as fall, but also plight, fate, calamity, disaster

“Occidendus Icarus” THERE IS NO WAY TO TRANSLATE THIS LYRIC SATISFACTORILY OH MY GOD YOU DONT UNDERSTAND HOW IMPOSSIBLE IT IS TO GET EVEN CLOSE TO THE ORIGINAL ENGLISH LYRIC'S WORDPLAY AND IMPACT AND MEANING. COMPLETELY IMPOSSIBLE. ultimately decided to go in the direction of using the unique features of Latin to create a new artistic choice instead of trying to translate the untranslatable. used a gerundive to express a sense of helplessness and fate; “Icarus who must be brought down/killed”

[maekar76]

Classical Greek Prepositions