#Cagots

[gwydpolls]

Time Travel Question 26: Ancient History XIII and Earlier

These Questions are the result of suggestions from the previous iteration.

This category may include suggestions made too late to fall into the correct grouping.

Please add new suggestions below if you have them for future consideration. All cultures and time periods welcome.

[beautiful-basque-country]

What was life like for Cagots in the Basque country during the medieval period? Or generally when Cagots were a group that existed. Also, what were/happened to the Cagots?

Kaixo!

There's a post we wrote a while ago where we discussed Cagots.

[maklodes]

Cagots feel like they’re from some planet on a trite 1963 1967 Star Trek episode about how stupid bigotry is or something. Like, no one can tell why so many people hated Cagots. They had no apparent physical, cultural, or religious differences from the surrounding population. There were theories about why they were despised, but they were mostly stupid. People were just like "FUCK those guys" for no discernable reason.

[abigail-nicole]

extremely correct tags op

every time i start thinking about the Cagots i go a little insane

[fromchaostocosmos]

Why Are Goyim Obsessed With Bad People Being The Fault of The Jews?

How many times have we seen the speculation that certain truly horrific historical people must Jewish based the stringing of threads. Or the that said horrific people are horrific because of the Jews.

How many times have seen Hitler was actually a Jew conspiracy or that Hitler only became the way he did because he denied entry to art school by Jews conspiracy?

Not just with historical figures we all have seen how often it gets mentioned that Roy Cohen, Jew, and they sure do make a point to highlight that Jew part was behind Donald Trump being who he is.

Think about Henry Kissinger and how much him Jewish gets highlighted when talking his influence on Presidents Ford and Nixon, even though he hated being Jewish.

And of course we can not forget the all time go to Christopher Columbus as the secret Jew.

And now that is being reported to be in fact true. Just look at how everyone is reporting it.

Only that is not the case.

The documentary Columbus DNA. His True Origin, broadcast on Spain’s National Holiday suggests that the explorer was not Genoese and Christian but Spanish and Jewish. The absolute protagonist of the documentary, forensic scientist José Antonio Lorente, has not yet published any scientific study to back his claims. The documentary is presented in the style of a reality show in which Lorente systematically discounts other theories, including that Columbus was Castilian, Portuguese, Galician, Mallorcan or a Cagot. It culminates with a scene in which only one possibility remains, the one put forward by architect Francesc Albardaner, author of the book La catalanitat de Colom (or, The Catalonian Origins of Columbus).

But geneticist Antonio Alonso, former chief of the National Institute of Toxicology and Forensic Sciences, is not convinced: “Unfortunately, from the scientific point of view, no assessment can be made after watching the documentary, since it does not provide any data on what has been analyzed. My conclusion is that the documentary Columbus DNA does not show the DNA of Columbus at any given moment and scientists do not know what analysis has been undertaken.”

Forensic anthropologist Miguel Botella, also from the University of Granada, remembers that day in 2003 when he waited for the box containing the supposed bones of Christopher Columbus to be opened. “Everyone expected to be greeted by an intact Columbus, but there were only 150 grams of bone fragments,” he says with a smile. The largest would have been about four centimeters in length.

Lorente then said that he was going to analyze the DNA of the three alleged members of the Columbus family with the help of prestigious geneticists, such as Ángel Carracedo from the University of Santiago de Compostela; and Mark Stoneking, from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, in Leipzig, Germany, one of the world’s most prestigious centers for the analysis of ancient DNA. Carracedo recalls that the DNA that reached him was tremendously degraded, and he too distanced himself from the project. Moreover, he refuses to comment on Lorente’s new results until there is a serious scientific study published in a specialized journal. The response of the Max Planck Institute geneticist to questions from EL PAÍS were similar: “I am sorry, my group stopped working on this in 2005 and I have not heard anything about the most recent results,” said Stoneking.

According to geneticist Antonio Alonso, “It is not the done thing for data that the scientific community has not yet endorsed to be presented to society, as it puts the data itself at risk as well as the proposed theory.” Alonso is also surprised by the absence of experts from the U.S. and Australia in the film whose contribution Lorente describes as essential. “Here there is too much protagonism from only one scientist. Neither the Granada team nor the collaborating ancient DNA laboratories in California and Adelaide, which are said to be of great importance in the success of the analyses, appear in the film,” he points out. Recently retired, Alonso is one of Spain’s leading experts in forensic genetics. He worked on the identification of the victims of Madrid’s 11-M terror attacks; on the investigation of dozens of reports of alleged baby thefts; on the recognition of Spanish Civil War victims and even on the attempts to find the remains of the writer Miguel de Cervantes. He claims that the documentary Columbus DNA does not speak to him as a scientist. “We do not know which DNA regions were analyzed, nor the technology used in the analysis, nor the results obtained, which makes it impossible to make a correct assessment of the findings,” he says.

Alonso explains that there are clusters of genetic variants called haplotypes or haplogroups that tend to be inherited together and may be characteristic of certain family lineages, but he adds that they often coincide with those of other groups in historically Jewish or non-Jewish populations. “In any case, having a genealogy, a haplogroup or a haplotype of Jewish or Sephardic ancestry does not call into question Columbus’ birthplace in Genoa as stated by historical sources, nor does it tell us anything about the religious beliefs professed by the generations of relatives close to Columbus,” he says.

Rodrigo Barquera is a Mexican expert in archeogenetics at the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology. Barquera has conducted DNA studies of human remains prior to the arrival of Europeans in America, such as those of children sacrificed by the Maya at Chichén-Itzá in Mexico. The researcher is very critical of the fact the data have been presented via a documentary, and without the backing of a serious scientific article reviewed by independent experts, especially given the enormous interest in the figure of Christopher Columbus and his origins. “Normally, the article is sent to a scientific journal,” he says. “The journal assigns an editor and at least three independent reviewers who rate the paper and decide if it is scientifically valid. If it is, it is published, and then the rest of the scientific community can say whether they agree or not. Putting it on a screen, removed from this process and with all the media focus on it, makes it difficult for the scientific community to say anything about it.”

Antonio Salas heads the Population Genetics in Biomedicine team at Santiago de Compostela’s Health Investigation Institute. “The documentary promised to focus on DNA analysis, as suggested by its title Columbus DNA: His True Origins,” he says. “However, the genetic information it offers is very limited. Only at the end is it mentioned that the only thing that was recovered from the presumed remains of Christopher Columbus was a partial profile of the Y chromosome. The problem is that the Y chromosome represents only a tiny fraction of our DNA and our ancestry.” “The documentary rushes to a conclusion that Christopher Columbus was a Sephardic Jew originally from the Spanish Levant. This hypothesis is, to say the least, surprising: there is no Y chromosome that can be uniquely defined as Sephardic-Jewish,” argues Salas. “Even if all of an individual’s DNA were recovered, it would still be impossible to reach definitive conclusions about his or her exact geographic origin.

So when science seems to much more aligned with Columbus not being why then is everyone reporting him as Jewish. And why do goyim keep blaming every evil deed, every action, every evil choice and every evil person on Jews?

[loving-n0t-heyting]

read amebedkars the annihilation of caste, plus arundhati roys book-length historical preface. in honesty i prolly learned more from the latter, which is more than anything a screed against the cult of gandhi as mahatma, tho she does give the impression of a writer willing to selectively present historical facts to paint a narrative. still, its facts shes painting with, and in many cases its very hard to imagine any context that could exonerate gandhi from the relevant charges. certainly a helpful pov to finally read in depth rather than as offhand iconoclastic remarks

the speech itself i think left me more flummoxed. ambedkar is at his best when he is railing against the evils of the caste system and the implausibility of various defences and concessions made on its behalf. this is a pretty easy pitch for me tho, growing up as a westerner without any reason to be invested in the chatuvarna. its like the cagot, such an obviously perverse system from an external vantage point that it hardly seems fair to award credit for thoroughly denouncing it unless youve been raised to see it as natural. still, its very stirring as a bit of skewering, especially of the "moderate" and "reformist" casteist positions it attacks, and of the "caste-blind" socialists and liberals who ignore the internal divisions and acrimony the caste system imposes on their envisioned base

he is more compelling as a symptomatologist than as a diagnostician or prescriber/prognostician. he takes by the end what seems like a maximally anti-"materialist" view of the causes of the persistence of the caste hierarchy: the social phenomenon of caste is due entirely to vedic dogmatism, to the point that advocating social rather than doctrinal reforms (primarily: inter-dining and inter-marriage) is futile and self-defeating. this is the context for his remarks about the need to reject the authority of the shastras. this interpretation of the basis of caste discrimination is accompanied by a shocking proposed solution: a purified and democratised hinduism as a state religion, whose new priesthood and scripture/dogma are to be administered by the state itself. only thus can the plague of casteism be stamped out effectively at the root (retrograde religious beliefs)

the blow of what reads to my own usamerican sensitivities as a brand of revolutionary theocracy and state control of religion is somewhat softened by his apparent lack of ambition in implementing it. he is upfront that he thinks the kinds of anti-caste reform he is advocating are simply impossible in the face of hindu society, a demoralisation bolstered in part by a top-down view of social change on which it is only possible as guided by a societys intellectual class—which he identifies with the class least incentivised to upend the system: the brahmins. obviously i had seen ppl draw the analogy between usamerican antiblack racism and indian dalit suppression, but it had never occurred to me that the topic would invite the obvious caste analogue of afropessimism

on the topic of ambedkars predictions about the future of hindu society, its sort of interesting to place him in the context of the current ascendancy of hindutva on the subcontinent. where ive seen ppl (roy in the preface included) speak of modi and ambedkar in the same breath, its usually (when not simply whitewashing ambedkar) been to take him on board as an ally against the hindutva menace. but im not sure how well the text of the annihilation of caste supports that reading? not in terms of what ambedkar would think of modi and hindutva, ofc; its not at all hard to imagine which side he would come down on there. but at the core of much of his criticism of the caste system is its inflexibility and incompatibility with a modern, cohesive, mobilised nation state and nation-building project. a house divided against itself etc etc. on his view, the system introduced social resentments and hostilities too deep to permit a hindu identity that could effectively unite the national public. one is inclined to say: would that it were so!

anyway these are just rough first thoughts, its very much not a topic where ik a huge amount. still wanted to put them on paper for an audiencxe, just to help clarify them to myself more than anything

[tlaquetzqui]

I have a theory: the Cagots, also called Agots, who were the untouchable caste of southwest France and the western Pyrenees in the Medieval and especially Early Modern Period, might be some whole group of families that were declared outlaws, either in the Germanic period, “nithings”, or even the Celtic one, “broken men” (and then Germans carried it over). Outlawry was untouchability and then some, in tribal Europe; not only were they forbidden to interact with those who were still inside the law, or their dwellings and goods, but they had the same legal status as a rat, you could kill them for literally any reason.

[adamsvanrhijn]

I don't know how to phrase the commentary I have in my head about the post about Cagots going around other than Are you people aware of caste systems. A society having a class of people who are complete outcasts for no consistent reason other than the fact that they are grouped together is not unique.

Also I think that the tendency on this site to group all of French people as white and prejudiced is like. Bad. Like if your take on French people is the same as that of French white nationalists except you think it's bad to be a French white nationalist and they don't then that is not good. There are millions of French people of color.

[beautiful-basque-country]

Question, were Cagots related to Basques? From what little I read they resided in the North of Spain and South-west of France (+ in Britanny), and some say they might be also related to the Erromintxela/Basque Romani people. Hadn't heard of them until recently :o

Kaixo anon!

Non exactly related. They weren't related to Erromintxela or Roma people either, but were mysterious people indeed. Agote (or Cagot in French) is the name given to a now disappeared, minority social group who lived in Euskal Herria, Aragon, Béarn, Gascony and Brittany.

Theirs is a tragic story of scorn, segregation, and abuse by the rest of society. You can read more about them in THIS POST we wrote a while ago.

[sexhaver]

i regret having worded that post about the Cagots so vaguely because the point i was trying to make was "this group was ostracized and oppressed to a ridiculous degree even though nobody can even remember what the nominal* basis for that oppression was in the first place (which is the case with all forms of oppression to some extent, but it's so starkly visible in this specific instance that it blows my mind)"

but the point that people seem to have interpreted me as saying was "wow, these guys were oppressed by being limited to a specific social role, or caste! someone should invent a word for this kind of system :)" and smugly screenshat an excerpt from the same wikipedia article saying "this is a caste system", as if i'm too stupid to scroll down

*yes, i'm aware that no form of oppression "makes sense" or is logically justified by bigoted rhetoric, im not Blizzard's writing team. the thing is that with, like, japan's burakumin or india's entire caste system, you have a religion endorsing/explaining the mechanism by which that oppresion is justified - burakumin are "unclean" according to Shintoism, while lower castes in india deserve their lot in life because of bad karma. if there was ever an explicit religious justification for why the Cagots were limited to craft trades to begin with, it seems to be lost to time, which makes the economic reasons much more nakedly obvious

[undeadentropy]

The Cagot were heavily discriminated against in France for centuries. We have good record on just how bad it was. The reason why is lost. Only the bigotry remains.

All of this shit is just made up. All of it. At the end of the day, we're all just humans.

God, there really is nothing like 20s detective fiction to remind you that prejudice is a social construct.

You'll have a story with a crossdressing thief which is mildly transmisogynistic but completely devoid of modern vitriol; it literally comes off as "here is a fun oddity that lets me be Clever about French grammar"

And in the very next story you will learn fifteen different slurs for Italians

[daemondaemon]

the way some of y'all talk about cagots and similar European groups is dangerously close to "This kind of racism is really weird because there was no cause, unlike regular racism which is a fact of life. These poor white people ):"

[ratwizz]

what’s your favorite extinct animal? :0

simply cagots.

[methodood]

cagots

[tobacconist]

im going to start racefaking as a cagot

[juliettestaqe]

Bonjour ! La deuxième partie de mon stage débute aujourd'hui !

Comme dit dans le post précèdent, il m'a été demandé de concevoir un dispositif de vote mobile afin de choisir l'une des trois maquettes réalisées par l'artiste chifoumi.

La maquette retenu par les habitants sera réalisée en fresque pour la façade de l'un des immeubles de la ville.

Le vélo cagot de la MJC sera la base du dispositif de vote.