#Byrne's FF

[vertigoartgore]

1982's Fantastic Four Vol.1 #247 cover by John Byrne & Glynis Wein.

[notmoreflippingelves]

I keep getting so caught up in the euphoria of so many people getting to know and love Kay Faraday for the first time that for a moment I forget that I live in a fandom that will inevitably reduce her to a prop for narumitsu.

[thekingofspin]

here's my unbiased descriptions of the 3 biggest hozier albums:

Hozier: Happy, love and respect

unreal unearth: dramatic, sad

wasteland baby: HOT AS FUCK.

[kryptonbabe]

My Superman controversial headcanon is basically ignoring John Byrne's interpretation of the character.

[angelofsmalldeath-codeine]

His music has always been political. What do y’all think songs like ‘Jack Boot Jump’, ‘De Selby II’, ‘Nina Cried Power’, ‘Take Me To Church’ are about?

Like seriously, listen to the fucking lyrics. Listen to the words he says preceding the songs.

People have been living his concerts when he speaks in favour of Palestine’s sovereignty. Do y’all think that his catalogue is all ‘Too Sweet’ and ‘Moment’s Silence’?

Text comprehension is a dying skill…

Hozier on Skavian

❝ Do you have an ambivalence towards the church in general? Or are you a whole hearted supporter? ❞

[polyhymniasbooks]

I have to believe there will be ultimate accountability and reckoning for war criminals, people who embezzle pension funds, and whomever was responsible for the smeary, borderline illegible printing in 1980s Marvel comics.

[brevoorthistoryofcomics]

BHOC: MARVEL TWO-IN-ONE #50

Now this was a comic book that I really liked. So much so that I sent a letter of comment in to the letters page asking that creator John Byrne be allowed to both write and pencil FANTASTIC FOUR. A real case of “be careful what you wish for”, as I stopped buying FF under Byrne’s eventual tenure. But this issue, steeped in classic lore that I was familiar with, was something that really connected…

[racefortheironthrone]

So the F4 cast announcement got me thinking about what comics to read if I get around to that and then about Doom and then I got me thinking... where exactly is Latveria supposed to be? The name makes me think of the Baltic states but I could be wrong.

So yeah, great announcement!

Pedro Pascal is a bit typecast as playing the Dad character (although that's become "one of those good problems"), but I'm thrilled that Cousin Ritchie is going to be playing Ben Grimm.

Obviously, they won't let Ebon Moss-Bachrach swear as much as he does in the Bear, but he's a fantastic actor and I cannot wait to see him bringing that mix of temper and soulfulness to the part.

I haven't seen much of Vanessa Kirby's work, but I'm looking forward to seeing what she can do with a better script than Napoleon.

And Joseph Quinn is excellent and I look forward to seeing some of "Eddie" Munson's energy in Johnny Storm.

In terms of recommendations for FF comics, I've got you there:

Read the Kirby/Lee run. It's a work of art from beginning to end.

Read the Walt Simonson's run.

This is going to be controversial, but you might want to skip the Byrne run.

Read the Jonathan Hickman run. A serious tour de force.

Alongside the Hickman run, Fraction/Allred is quite good too.

As for where Latveria is, it is indeed Balkan:

As you can see from the map, Central/Eastern Europe in Earth 616 is quite different and significantly more Balkanized (forgive the pun) compared to Earth 1218 (also known as our universe).

In addition to Doom's Latveria, we have Symkaria (the dysfunctional micro-kingdom whose economy is largely supported by Silver Sable's mercenary company), Transia (birthplace of Wanda and Pietro Maximoff and home to the High Evolutionary's Island of Doctor Moreau Wundagore Mountain), and a bunch of minor ones like Ruritania (from The Prisoner of Zenda), Carnelia (a post-Soviet state that Tony Stark and Justin Hammer fight over), Belgriun (a totalitarian monarchy that was overthrown by a bunch of Spider-Men villains), Draburg (which showed up in some Sabra comics), and some other small ones that I couldn't find on the wiki.

[vertigoartgore]

1983's Fantastic Four Annual Vol.1 #17 cover by artist John Byrne.

[marvelousmrm]

Fantastic Four #233 (Byrne, Aug 1981). Johnny investigates a death row inmate’s case. I found this a pretty startling tone shift for the typically wholesome FF. It’s like Johnny’s old solo feature from Strange Tales but with an adventure out of Ghost Rider or Power Man.

[brw]

How would you describe xfans' politics?

I mean, you ultimately can't make any actual generalisations of someone's politics based on what they read and watch. Media can and often does inform people's thoughts and influences them, but you cannot come to any legitimate conclusion of someone's politics based exclusively on what they read. When I criticise "X-Men fans", it is usually done with the understanding that I'm looking at a particularly small, vocal minority; by definition, I am an X-Men fan, because I read a lot of X-Men books.

Reading X-Men comics is not (no matter how much some people imply otherwise) political action. It is not an indicator of politics. Too often, I see people say "Conservative X-Men fans are crazy, they have no reading comprehension! The X-Men have always been left!!" and to be honest, that's giving a lot of X-Men writers way too much credit.

Claremont, as I've talked about before, is a Zionist who based his Magneto characterisation of a Zionist terrorist. His Charles, too, and had both of them meet for the first time in Occupied Palestine. I believe he has also gone on the record as saying that many of his female X-Men characters were based on female IDF soldiers. He also very much so made Storm a cop.

Grant Morrison, beloved X-Men writer, was horrifically racist to Asian people in their comic, most particularly with the portrayal of Dust, and having Magneto be in yellowface for that whole comic. There are other issues with Talia Al Ghul of DC, but that's out of my remit. There's a lot of criticism to be had about the portrayal of black people in their series, too.

John Byrne's many, many issues are more readily discussed, but he's still a massive part of the X-Men lore and history, and describes himself as a "progressive conservative".

And while I don't believe we know very much about their politics, I also don't think that Hickman or Duggan should be paraded around as bastions of leftist fiction, when they really aren't. I'm not saying these writers haven't written leftist things before, but it it is a mistake to say that the X-Men are inherently leftist and inherently progressive, when a lot of X-Men writers are not those things.

I think some people, by virtue of the X-Men being a series about the minority experience, project their own feelings and politics onto the X-Men, and sometimes forget that isn't reality. That's how we get "Magneto was right" as a fandom rally cry, but if you imply that maybe the character based off a Zionist, who canonically lived in Israel, and has created 3 different mutant ethnostates are two facts that inform each other, then you're crazy and ruining everyone's fun.

Anyway. Point being, I don't think you can meaningfully say "ALL X-Men fans are like this", when comics are ultimately nothing that can be used to make conclusions of people's politics. The only thing unique to the X-Men is that the minority metaphor and experience is the core premise of their stories, unlike the Avengers and FF who, while having characters like Ben Grimm and The Vision who undergo similar treatment, are not about that at their core in the same way the X-Men are. The centralisation of minorities makes it easy for the X-Men to feel radical and cutting edge, but they aren't that much, to be honest. Like, they are ultimately a capitalist venture created by a group of predominantly white Americans (although the current X office is more diverse than it has been since, well, ever, and that shouldn't be ignored), and are never going to be as radical as you want because of that. Cyclops is never going to be right the way you want him to be right, because Brian Michael Bendis is not going to be giving the people radical leftist praxis.

[co-mixed]

Fantastic Four by John Byrne 

This run is considered to be one of the must-reads, so well, I read it. And the whole thing left a weird aftertaste. Very similar to the one you have after learning more about its creator. Yes, one could be a good artist and a decent writer without being a good human. 

But we’re here to focus on content, not the creator, and that’s what I’m going to do. 

What it feels like

I jumped into this run right after Lee/Kirby, skipping most of the stuff in the middle. So it was a new take on the team right off the bat. Byrne focuses on the human sides of the FF a little more than the original run does. The structure of the stories also changes from a day at the Baxter Building -> a villain appears -> the villain is defeated. We start getting multiple chapters or issues in every arc, and it makes them more complex. 

In fact, complexity is certainly something that appears and grows from the 1970s to the 1980s. That’s true for most comics. 

But then there is the how it’s done and the what is done. And while one is a huge leap forward, the other is very controversial. I couldn’t find any explanations for some of the storylines aside from the idea hat (you know, when you get a hat, throw random ideas in it and start pulling.) Because of that, the stories seem disjointed. They connect to one another but it’s hard to say what exactly was the writer implying. Unfortunately, the more we know about the writer in question, the less chances we have left to misinterpret it into something more digestible. 

It’s not like that (or it shouldn’t be)

Byrne leans into the white savior trope. Every time the characters encounter racism, it feels ingenuine. Especially when blond blue-eyed Johnny jumps in to save Wyatt. This same feeling I got from Roy Thomas’s apartheid issue (FF #119) and it doesn’t get better. Yeah, we can argue that this is the 80’s but that trope is in no hurry to disappear. 

When it comes to political takes, Byrne’s are controversial, to say the least. I wrote a whole longread, complaining about the bizarre Latverian arc, in which the FF organized two coups in a row first bringing democracy to the people of the country, and then, handing it back to Doom. It’s all disguised into a lesser of two evils issue but it won’t sit well with anyone who’s familiar with autocratic regimes. 

Barely moving forward

Byrne also shakes up the character dynamics. But was any of it for the better? At times, he presents a more acceptable version of Reed. He is still an easily hooked, eager scientist who can neglect his family in favor of his work. But he’s not an absolutely intolerable garbage human anymore. He is also the least interesting character of the bunch because aside from science and condescending explanations, he doesn’t have much going on. He becomes more observant though, even noticing the change in Johnny when he starts dating Alicia (and I later will circle back to that absolute eww moment.)

While all that is true, Reed is also shown to be racist against Skrulls during his trial. His statements are what any racist would say. Verbatim.

It almost feels like Byrne himself is interested less in Reed and more in other members of the team. 

Women of Marvel

A lot of attention goes to Sue, Frankie Raye, and She-Hulk. And here I’d have to give Byrne some props. They are shown as competent and as strong (or potentially as strong) as their male counterparts. It’s suggested that Sue is actually the strongest member of the team, and it’s a very reasonable statement too. She stops being a quiet voice in the back and even reflects on that.

Unfortunately, I have to retract the props immediately because there is a weird violence kink that accompanies all the development. Like Alicia being badly beaten up by Annihilus, Sue being tortured by Mephisto, She-Hulk being photographed and then verbally assaulted by an editor. This is a repeated offense with Byrne's writing. 

Then, of course, there is the arc with Sue’s miscarriage and the one with Malice. Now the first one might not rub everyone the right way, but I think it’s something that made the 80s comics relatable - human issues that heroes face. And in this case, it’s one that comes not as a result of her superhero life but of her being exposed to cosmic rays. She doesn’t immediately forget it either, this arc echoes through the following issues and while I don’t know whether the portrayal is at all genuine, it’s there and that’s quite innovative. 

Go ask Malice

Malice is another Sue-centric concept, it’s her evil alter-ego that’s brought forth by a villain.

And here I have an issue because maybe instead of Psycho-Man - a hate-based villain (which was a mediocre concept all around) it could’ve been a manifestation of her grief and exhaustion with his behavior.

This could have (and should have been) an internal family matter for the FF with Sue confronting and possibly blaming Reed and Reed finally acknowledging how crappy he’s been and changing for the better. 

Sure this doesn’t have the scale of the whole NYC in a hate-fueled frenzy but it does have just the right tone for a family. While we’re at it, Byrne doesn’t have the best track record with tackling racism or bigotry issues so again, that would’ve been much better. 

Even if the concept itself was interesting, Byrne’s execution fumbled it completely. Sue’s hate is a twisted form of her love. And when it comes to Reed, Malice actually addressed all the reasonable points. He really has done every single thing she’d accused him of, and he proceeds to do them again. So really, he doesn’t learn anything from this whole ordeal. 

It’s even worse that Sue attacks him later, again, with reasonable demands of revenge on Psycho-Man, and Reed tries to dismiss her to focus on ‘more important stuff.’

I’d say the right thing to do would be to allow She-Hulk to immediately side with Sue because that’s what any woman would do no questions asked. Ideally, Johnny should have done the same – he was raised by Sue after all. On the other side, his only male role models are Reed (ew no thanks) and Ben (ew no thanks.)

When they finally face the villain, Byrne goes back to his favorite tools - torturing Sue. The torture isn’t physical but Sue keeps seeing an exaggerated version of Reed who blames her for everything and treats her like garbage. Shockingly, he’s not that different from the real Reed. 

I don’t have to be too negative here because, in the end, Sue does defeat the villain, punish him, and save Reed. She even changes her monicker to Invisible Woman (and that’s the name we know her by now). But again, some very odd decisions preceded that positive outcome. 

This arc is pretty sad to read because psychological manipulation and violation of a person’s psyche is a big deal. This could have been a groundbreaking arc. But instead, it gets cringey at times and doesn’t do the characters justice.

...And others

Like I said, Sue isn’t the only lady who gets to stand in the spotlight. I quite liked the character of Frankie (before she fell in love with Galactus for like 3 panels). She has quite a story, having a power she couldn’t access and a phobia connected to said power. With a little more development (I’m talking modern-day standards) she could’ve been a way more compelling character. But ultimately everything worked out pretty well, especially after her over-eagerness to resolve everything with brute force paid off when she became the herald of Galactus. 

She-Hulk is always a joy to encounter, and she takes over the Thing’s spot on the team for a while after the Secret Wars. She has a cute romance with Wyatt and that’s probably one of the most adorable things in this run. Because, you know, all the other romances are getting a hit. 

But not everything is as well as it may seem. As soon as Byrne’s done torturing Sue, he proceeds to torture She-Hulk.

What about love? 

Byrne delivers us one of the most unnecessary romance stories ever, and I’m saying this as someone who’s seen Scott fall in love with Jean’s clone, Gambit making out with Storm every chance he gets (I still ship it), Wanda and Cap, even Batman and Batgirl (and that was a new low).

So Johnny and Alicia. What was that about?

I could see that happening if she hadn’t been Ben’s very serious girlfriend: there are very reasonable elements in this story that reflect the schism in their relationship. They are both growing out of it and it makes perfect sense since Alicia is younger than Ben. In fact, she’d described as just a couple of years older than Johnny who in the beginning was in high school so… best not to think about it at all. Why are old comics like that (heavy sigh). 

Either way, before they break up, Ben stays on another planet and contemplates his relationship with Alicia, deciding that they should break up. Alicia comes to the same conclusion and bonds with Johnny over tragedies and danger. 

Here’s the thing though (for this, imagine me with a cup of tea and my glasses on). Johnny has known Ben his whole life and he has to have more decency than to start a relationship with someone who hasn’t yet broken up with Ben. The same can be said about Alicia but I hardly can hold this against her, since she is friends with them all but she still isn’t (at that time) tied to them that strongly. So yeah, I can see her do that and feel justified. 

But in general, what is this whole thing about? It’s a story that doesn’t do anything but portray both characters in the worst light. And it would’ve made sense had it been the endgame. But it wasn’t, we all know that. So I’m going to take it as a temporary insanity thing and push into that ‘We don’t talk about…’ drawer where things like Connor (Angel’s son), Xavier’s crush on Jean, and the whole Avengers 200 thing go to die. 

Another thing that goes into the same drawer is the origin of Sue and Reed’s relationship (I’m guessing pre-retcon). I’m not going to comment on that because I hate Reed enough as it is. There’s just nowhere for the hate to grow.  

Moving on

There’s also Franklin and he is growing, he’s 5 now and he… becomes an adult, puts blocks on his powers, goes back to being a kid, defeats Mephisto, and sees prophetic dreams about impending Doom. Not necessarily of the doctor variety. 

I have nothing to say about Franklin just yet, except that he looks like a very short adult rather than a 5 y/o. And that’s the creepy trend that plagues the comics of the 80's. 

Same old story

I feel like Byrne simultaneously tried to bring something new to the story and burn (or Byrne!) everything just to watch the flames.

And yet so many conflicts remained the same! Johnny goes through a weird love triangle just to end up with Alicia. The Thing is stuck in the same I-wanna-be-human-I-don’t-wanna-be-human vicious circle and I’m starting to wonder if they’re even planning on giving that up. We covered Reed already, and Sue is the only one who has some new stuff going on. But she is enough to make the run interesting.

As the run nears its end, there is an issue that reminded me more of Nocenti’s style (which I don’t know who started in the comics but she definitely perfected it), that focuses on Johnny dealing with his own impact on humans. It started out interesting with the boy burning himself to be like Human Torch, but then Beyonder showed up and instead of a psychological journey (as Nocenti probably would’ve done) we get a Deus ex-Machina solution.

Was it worth it? 

I write the following with a clear understanding that I was ready to give up at least thrice during this read-through. 

I would say that there are several arcs that deserve attention: the rewritten origin of Doom (that still doesn’t explain how we’re supposed to view him as a necessary evil rather than a terrible dictator), Galactus stories, Negative Zone travels, Sue telling off Reed, and so on. So if you’re thinking of reading the run, I’d say do. 

Keep in mind that there are trigger warnings, such as racism, violence against women, and miscarriage. Byrne's run is… a lot. If you feel too disgusted, better skip it. 

At the end of the day, we're really talking about this whole thing from today’s perspective. That means we all know the red flags in writing just as well as we do which tropes are harmful and why. 

We also realize that there are more ways to look at an issue than through the eyes of a stereotypical protagonist of the era. In the 80s comics were still becoming the art form we know and love today, and narrative mistakes were made. It’s easier to follow the story if you note them but don’t focus on them. Without that, they’ll be just a bunch of outdated narratives and harmful stereotypes.

[thevindicativevordan]

In your recent UFF post, you said: "UFF works better as a contrast with the mainline rather than as an entry point to the franchise for new readers". I wanted to start reading the Fantastic Four. Which runs would you recommend and in which order?

Start with Mark Waid for the best “modern” entry point. After that, Hickman for sure as the guy I expect to see the MCU draw on a lot for inspiration. After Hickman FF I recommend his Avengers run simply because it builds upon his FF and his entire epic casts Reed and Doom as the true leads. Then Ryan North’s current run for a great ongoing. Besides those, if you’re up for older runs, the Lee/Kirby run is foundational and second only to ASM in terms of Silver Age Marvel storytelling. Walter Simonson’s tenure is widely praised. Byrne’s run gets a lot of love but he bails on the book, leaving many plot threads unresolved (oh and there’s *that* Reed/Sue retcon too). McDuffie wrote an enjoyable short run.

But if you want an easy stand-alone read than I recommend Alex Ross’ recent Full Circle mini. Brilliant art and I had no problem following along despite not being familiar with the Lee/Kirby era before reading it.

[omniversecomicsguide]

Remember when Doctor Doom’s biggest foe was… himself?!

In the latest DOCTOR DOOM READING ORDER entry, we cover John Byrne’s FF issues, Doom’s time in the Secret Wars and the decade-long ‘Doom/Kristoff War’!

Follow @VirginVariant who provided this incredible edit of the cover of Alpha Flight #91 (1990) by Jackson ‘Butch’ Guice

[kriosv]

Starting Byrne's FF run with Fantastic Four('61) #220

If you're in a New York winter, I doubt anywhere within 3 hours could you experience "basking" and not "freezing." Least not your girlfriends, Ben.

[roguestorm]

Is Jean grey close friends with Sue Storm and Janet? I always thought of them as a trio because they were the only female in their respective groups and they bonded over that haha but did they ever interact in comics?

Good question!

I don't off the top of my head remember any Jean/Janet interactions at all. They probably have interacted at some point, but I don't know when.

For Sue, a couple of places spring to mind:

First, Fantastic Four #286, when the FF + Hercules and Captain America find Jean at the bottom of Jamaica Bay. Jean fights the other heroes, including Sue, believing them to be robots. But when Jean realizes they're real and realizes that she's lost her telepathic powers and also been gone for several years, she starts to have a breakdown, and Sue intervenes on her behalf.

And then Sue also chimes in with Captain America to reassure Jean that her human spirit saved the world from the destruction posed by Dark Phoenix. And then we get this cute moment at the end, where it seems like they're sort of getting to be friends! Yay!

So this issue positions them as mostly strangers before this but on friendly terms by the end of it. (Also, I love the way Byrne draws Jean.)

The next place is Days of Future Present, specifically UXM annual #14. This has Sue explaining Jean's feelings on the subject of Rachel and children and how Jean feels like her life has been laid out for her to Scott.

This makes sense to me given FF 286, where Sue saw firsthand how badly Jean reacted to finding out what had gone on in "her" life without her. This is in 1990, 5 years after FF 286. (They were also abducted together in the Atlantis Attacks crossover the previous year, but I think that's less important to their dynamic.)

But then when Jean expresses these same issues to Sue, Sue points out that she has to think of Rachel.

This casts Sue as an older mother giving advice to a younger mother. Sue understands Jean's frustration, but she's trying to remind Jean that Rachel is having a hard time too and she is underscoring that Jean might have some sort of responsibility to Rachel.

And the last interaction that comes to mind is a retcon, from someone who went, "Wait, these characters should have interacted more than they did!" and that's in X-Men First Class (2007) #1. Professor X asks Sue to come and mentor Jean. From the beginning, Jean is very taken with Sue and very glad to get to go with her.

And she's extra glad to be around Sue when Sue gets what it's like for Jean to be a woman and a superhero (since Jean is the only girl on an all-male team).

Maybe not revolutionary or anything, but certainly cute.

All three of these scenarios have Sue acting as mentor or protector to Jean. I wonder what Sue would get out of a friendship with Jean, especially now that Jean is more established and more confident. There is a foundation that current writers could build off of if they so wished, and it would be cool to see it explored more!