#And the show never addresses it

[marigoldrory]

In "Eight O'clock at the Oasis" we see Lorelai get emotionally manipulated by Dwight, and Emily, after spending the entire episode struggling to have boundaries with her Mom. In the next episode "Take the Deviled Eggs" we see her get emotionally manipulated by Sherry too.

What is so striking is how intensely insistent all three had to be in order for Lorelai to finally relent. She is very stubborn, hard-headed, and independent, and she fails!! She still fails to not getting roped into a disruptive project for a stranger, she fails to say no to the baby shower of a woman is having a baby with the man she wants to be with, and she fails to have boundaries with her mother because she cares about her.

Lorelai has struggled to have boundaries with her Mom her entire life, and she has to be unrelenting in order to have some boundaries and autonomy with her, so of course she is stubborn and doesn't know when to give in sometimes in other areas of her life.

It is just so interesting seeing the root of that character trait, what circumstances break it, and where there's room to grow.

Especially since in the next episode, "They shoot Gilmores, Don't They?" she emotionally manipulates her daughter into attending the 24 hour dance with her. Rory says no multiple times, explains why it would mess up her plans and her night, which she was excited for, until she ultimately conceeds.

Emily is stubborn, so Lorelai has to be stubborn in order to have a relationship with her, but that bleeds over into her relationship with Rory in ways she doesn't realize is harmful. And she is so panicked about not hurting her daughter the same way that her Mom hurt her, that she doesn't give Rory any space to talk through her feelings when Lorelai does in fact hurt her.

It's real and tragic and human!

[knightofleo]

Angela Orosco Silent Hill 2

[starbuck]

Flint and Billy’s dynamic is really so much because you get the impression that Flint thinks about Billy 0.05% of the time at most, whereas Billy thinks about Flint 80% of the time at least.

And Billy also KNOWS that Flint doesn’t think about him and that’s what at least 20% of his thoughts about Flint are about.

[fairylando]

oh to be a fly so i can spy their debriefs with eachother when something is wrong🦟

[daddyduncan69]

something something the first time i truly felt pity for riko was his death and i think that fucking matters something something

[akalanthis]

angry space toad grandpa lost an ear

[the-witchhunter]

You know those video games where the character has to complete puzzles and work through their trauma to escape/wake up/something? Obstacles getting in their way and being tied to their past as they delve more into their trauma and have to learn/heal from it before they can progress?

Danny has been around a loooong time. He's old, he's powerful, and has a space in the ghost zone that he controls much like a god. The ghosts have long since started leaving him alone, the ones he's friends with have their own affaires to deal with, and in his ever shifting labyrinthian layer he's too powerful, and even outside of it he can still kick their asses.

and he's without a purpose

His friends had long since passed on after leading long and wonderful lives with him, not even leaving a ghost behind. His Family as well. Jazz had never had children, and try as he and Sam might have, half dead as he was he couldn't have children. He had no one left and nothing to do, and all of eternity to do it in.

Thinking of Jazz is what made him do it the first time

She loved helping people with her psychology, and Danny decided to do it in his own way. It hadn't been pretty, and it hadn't been easy, but he had found his method. Some took to it better than others, and many had different theories about his lair and his motives, but he helped people move past their trauma. Some believed his lair was some kind of purgatory, and... they weren't totally off

So, when Danny moved on to the timeline of the DC multiverse, he had some experience under his belt

He just underestimated how much trauma superheroes can have

[glitter-stained]

The first rule of writing horror is looking at the horrors

The second rule of writing horror is don't write about horrible things if you don't want to write horror

[thepurecinnamonroll]

Idc— Olivia witnessing Alex bleeding out on the sidewalk and then being one of the reasons she doesn't bleed out (along with the fact that she literally felt Alex's blood and life leaving her body) should mean a lot more than people give it credit for omg

Just imagine how Olivia feels after seeing Alex bleeding so much while she held her shoulder

And imagine how Alex feels, knowing Olivia is one of the main reasons she's alive

(this actually drives me crazy)

[miraculouslbcnreactions]

The fandom can't make up its mind on what's supposed to be a joke and what's supposed to be serious because the show can't either half the time. It's a tonally disjointed mess that wants to have absurd over-the-top humor as well as a plot and moments of drama, romance, and angst that demand you see the characters as people and feel for what they're going through. Except you can't do that without also treating the dumb bullshit in a somewhat grounded way. Like, you're still dealing with the same characters. You can't just go "Oh, that? Let's ignore that!" the moment it's no longer convenient to you. You've opened this can of worms and now you have to sleep in it. So, every character flip-flops between two different versions of themselves depending on what the writers need in any particular scene.

This is not to say surreal humor can't be used right alongside characters you're supposed to empathize with, Teen Titans (not Go) did that and it worked. It's just that the absurdity can only come from the setting (Mad Mod, Mother Mae-Eye, pretty much anything Control Freak is in) or from designated joke characters (Date With Destiny). Teen Titans never had the main characters acting in clearly absurd ways as the butt of a joke unless those characters were brainwashed somehow, because the writers knew that would ruin any of the more grounded moments they wanted to write. The writers of Miraculous missed the memo on that one.

I don't disagree. A perfect example is Derision where the show takes all of the bad jokes about Marinette's crush and decides to take them seriously as if you can possible take them seriously without making Marinette come across as unhinged and dangerous. You can't, which brings us to the topic at hand: how do you even begin to understand these characters when the show is constantly making character-breaking choices?

My approach - and the approach I recommend others take if they're going to keep watching the show - is to focus on the characters' cores and reject anything canon does to violate those cores. I don't argue for this stance because I love the characters so much that I only want the good things to count. I take this stance because, if you don't, then the characters fall apart. There is no way to make them work as fully realized characters while embracing every choice canon has made. Miraculous has massive characterization issues that go well beyond the humor.

For example, Adrien has multiple moments of terrible behavior that are played in a serious manner such as the moment in the episode Frozer where he tries to start a fight with Ladybug in the middle of an akuma attack because she wouldn't accept a rose from him earlier:

Setup

Ladybug: I can't accept this rose from you. I told you already. I'm in love with someone else. Cat Noir: I know, M'lady. But if he weren't here, would things be different between us? Ladybug: Well, you know, I can't even begin to imagine him not being here. I'm sorry, Cat Noir. I really gotta get going, and you better do the same. (Swings her yo-yo to head back home; Cat Noir is sad, looking downwards, with one petal of the rose falling.)

Payoff

Ladyice: Cat Noir. We need to set up a trap for whoever turned the city into a giant ice rink. (throws yo-yo) Icecat: (bitterly) My feline instincts prefer to track and observe before I attack. You go your way, I'll go mine. Ladyice: Please don't tell me you're mad at me about the rose. Icecat: There may be a certain chill now between us. Ladyice: I get it, but we should really focus on saving Paris right now. Icecat: We don't always have to do everything together, after all. It's not like we're a couple. (skates away)

There's no way to argue this off as a bad joke. While Adrien has every right to feel hurt, those feelings don't excuse him acting like a pouting child in the middle of an akuma fight. It doesn't excuse him acting like this at any point! Ladybug is not a villain for telling him no. She wasn't even mean about it!

I clearly fully agree that Adrien looks awful and selfish here, but I'd still argue that it's not something that should be used to define Adrien's character if your goal is to tell the "ideal" version of Miraculous. "Ideal" being the version that canon seems to be going for based on the overall picture we can sort of make out if we back way, way, way up and look at the extremely abstract picture canon is clumsily painting.

Unless canon is going to do something monumentally stupid, Adrien is Marinette's endgame romantic interest. It's also clear that there is no plan to cut him from the team. He's going to be Chat Noir for the rest of his life or at least well into his adulthood. This means that he is supposed to be a good hero who deserves his miraculous just like he's supposed to be a charming and cute romantic lead. These are the two things I keep in mind when trying to shift through canon to figure out what writing choices I should fully embrace and what writing choices I have to either ignore or treat as true flaws that get an actual character arc. In my book, either approach is fine because most of the characters are deeply flawed at this point and you can't give them all arcs without bloating the story to nonsense levels.

My goal with this approach is never to say, "oh, that moment shouldn't count in terms of how people feel about the character." It's more, "that moment goes so hard against who this character is very clearly supposed to be that I can't take it into account if I want to tell the kind of story that Miraculous is trying (and clearly failing) to tell."

As an example, let's list off Adrien's worst behaviors. The things that make him look terrible:

He sucks at communicating his needs and feelings, leading to multiple moments where he gets mad at Ladybug for things she's totally unaware of

He has quit or considered quitting without warning multiple times and only one of those was because of something he did "wrong" (NYC Special)

He puts his feelings before the safety of Paris on multiple occasions, even going so far to purposely miss akuma fights to see what happens

He is incredibly pushy about his crush, often ignoring Ladybug's feelings on the topic by continuing to bring it up even after she asked him to stop

There have been multiple instances where he almost cataclysmed multiple people in a fit of anger

His love for Ladynette isn't strong enough to let him break free of things like akumas and nightmare dust even when he's looking her in the eyes making him a pretty crappy romantic lead

People will argue that some of this behavior makes sense for his character because of the abuse that canon has technically introduced, but that the writers seem blissfully unaware of. I don't disagree with that argument, but that doesn't change the fact that none of this is acceptable behavior for a hero and Adrien is a hero who keeps doing these things. A sad backstory doesn't give you the right to behave poorly without consequences.

At the same time, if I fully embrace these elements of canon, what I get is an Adrien salt fic where he loses his miraculous for good while Marinette finds her real true love or even just a non-salty fic where Adrien leaves for his own meatal health and gets replaced by someone who can handle being a hero right now. Canon's not writing either of those, so the only way to engage with these flaws while enjoying canon or aiming for the same end goals as canon is to say, "I guess this doesn't count" or "I guess I need to tone this way down and work through it via a character arc" or even "I guess that was just a bad joke maybe?"

That is the essence of what I mean when I call myself a writing salt, character sugar blog. It comes from looking at canon and seeing that there's simply no way to embrace the worst moments and the best at the same time. We're not dealing with a coherent plot and/or complex characters. We're dealing with a nonsense plot that will warp the characters to bizarre shapes to make random ideas work even if those idea go wildly against canon's end goals.

As an example, Glaciator and Frozer should not exist in the same universe or, at the very least, something should explain why Chat Noir randomly changed his stance on Ladybug's crush from acceptance to pushiness. As is, the pieces don't fit together. The behavior is too contradictory. Remember, this is how Glaciator ends:

Perhaps Ladybug will love me someday. I mean, like, I love her. I have to believe. In the meantime, her friendship is the best gift of all.

Where did this version of Adrien go? Why did he regress in Frozer? There's no in-universe reason. It happened because the writers weren't ready to let the love square date or grow close, but they also wanted the love square to cause drama, so Adrien ends up looking terrible just like Marinette ends up looking terrible when it's her turn to cause love square drama. Her terribleness takes a different flavor so it can be hard to realize that this is a systemic issue, but that's what it is. It's deeply frustrating, but it also clearly stems from cheap writing and not quality characterization.

This is also why my stance is that canon as a whole only supports my Doyalistic core-character analysis style of approach. The writing is too poor quality to do Watsonian analysis where you embrace the full picture and try to put it all together. The closest I'll get to Watsonian analysis is pointing out how much the writing botches a Watsonian take by showing you all the way the writing contradicts itself, twisting into a nonsense pretzel of frustration where the payoffs never satisfy! (See the season four rant for an example or anything where I talked about Chloe's supposed damnation arc.)

There are even characters where canon is such a total mess that you can Doyalistically argue for two separate takes! Gabriel is a perfect example. He is all over the place and his ending was so poorly handled that you can make strong arguments for writing him as a cold-hearted villain or a sympathetic villain without the end result feeling like it spits in the face of canon because both takes maintain his one core element: villain.

That's the big thing I keep in mind when I look at the characters and the lore and the plots and try to come up with versions that the average fan would like. I don't think that there's one true version of any of these things, but I do feel comfortable saying that there are versions that will very clearly only appeal to people who are salty about a specific thing that canon did poorly. That's not who I want to appeal to in my adaptions, so while I'm not going to argue that those takes have no backing in canon, I will argue that those takes are not supported by canon as a whole. Embracing them requires you to take the worst parts of canon at face value while ignoring what canon is clearly trying to do with the overall story.

I get the appeal of that, but it's not fun for me because that approach feels like rolling around in the mud with the pigs. I don't want to sink to canon's level! I want to have fun! That's why I talk about how to make canon into its best self, not its worst self. If you want its worst self, just go watch the actual show. I will be shocked it if disappoints you.

[teapetal44]

The state of the league of villains during act 3 is so sad man. Compress literally gave his ass for the league, got arrested and nobody gaf. Twice’s demise amounted to nothing, nobody cared. The whole discrimination arc Spinner was involved in was a mess. Suddenly Hori decided he cared about realism in his story so Toga dropped like a fly from a simple blood transfusion. Dabi is forced to sit and listen to Endeavor whine and yap about how sad he is about being an abusive pos, all the while nobody actually cares and he never got any real repercussions besides his family being (justifyingly) mean to him. Shigaraki was sidelined for a boring villain and was stripped off all his autonomy and agency.

[foxtophat]

yo i just watched sonic 3 again bc like i'm way too old not to be indulging my cringe behavior and, because i have rfk levels of stobotnik brainrot i keep fantasizing about mecha sonic being stone's emotional support project that was originally robotnik's plan and stones like ok this is now mine. he's my baby. hes our baby. i'm definitely handling my grief in a healthy way

and shadow is just like there in the background eating guac and watching telenovelas the whole time

[ichijokaoru]

one of my favourite kuuga scenes (Tsubaki and Ichijou, episode 38) and then, it’s bestie (Tsubaki and Godai, episode 47) which I think are interesting to watch back to back…

neither of them feature both Godai and Ichijou, but, espeically put together, they’re two of my fave goichi moments… I have so much I could say about them, that I don’t even know where I’d begin

[keen-eye]

What is your opinion on Wincest?

thank you for asking. i hope you're ready for me to go very in-depth into my personal opinions about the ship and about the fandom, but if not:

TL;DR: take it or leave it, but you cannot deny that sam & dean do not act like normal siblings. because of this i think that i have some level of an objective view on it (or maybe not, idk). and most importantly, bullying is never okay. these are fictional characters

okay here we go ⬇️

if someone hates wincest they should block the tag/blog and move on, it's as simple as that. i myself had the tag blocked when i first started my rewatch. they are only embarrassing themselves by coming on here and crying about it. if fictional incest upsets you so much then i don't think this is the right show for you

jared and jensen have insane chemistry, they and the crew recognized it very quickly. so when you have two people with that much chemistry playing siblings their relationship will come across as very questionable and the audience will pick up on that. they didn't make it up out of nowhere. also, the cast and crew joke about the ship outside and within the show. it's not that serious

do i personally ship wincest? i guess technically i do. i follow a few wincest blogs, i've made a couple joke posts. but i never watch shows for shipping, i never watch shows just for hot people. power to those who do, though. i watch this show because i've never come across a more unique character than sam (reasons too long for this post). so the content i engage in/the blogs i follow are centered around sam and his and dean's canon dynamic, sometimes mixed with this hypothetical version of their relationship because i find it interesting to speculate on. because i do believe something more explicit than what was already shown could absolutely have fit into canon. and that's the only type that i find interesting, where they are not regular boyfriends but as they already are: brothers with a very fucked up and power imbalanced relationship. but i am not actively wearing shipping goggles when i'm watching

i understand that incest makes people uncomfortable. but the show was (originally) a gothic horror. taboo subjects, like incest, are a fundamental part of that genre. emotionally incestuous undertones were ingrained into the show from the beginning. sam & dean are not normal about each other. if you think that they act like regular siblings then i don't even know what to say. and even though the show shifted genres their codependency only intensified as it went on. many characters commented on their weirdly close relationship throughout the show

on that note, this taboo has been around literally forever. it's in literature, it's on tv, it's in porn. it will never not be a subject many people want to explore in fiction. on that note, i see a lot of people say that fictional incest ships will affect reality. i can promise that it will not all of a sudden make everyone want to start fucking their family members. and if someone believes this then i'd also expect them not ship other "problematic ships" (e.g., hannigram, a relationship between a murderous cannibal who physically and psychologically tortured the other person). sam & dean are serial killers but you don't see people saying that being okay with that in a fictional show makes someone a bad person

i can't say from personal observation (because i only joined tumblr in october last year) but i have seen many mentions that more people are becoming increasingly sensitive/engrossed in purity culture compared to fandom years ago and this is evident in how they behave on social media (i can at least corroborate that last part)

for example, seeing someone's sam & dean edit and freaking out in the comments about whether it's meant to be wincest or not before they reblog. or joining in bullying wincest shippers to fit in/appease other antis. or making a post about how disgusting wincest shippers are and directly tagging wincest. i don't know if this is something from the new generation or maybe something else but i will say that when i see people acting like this my immediate thought is that they are children who never learned social media etiquette

attacking and insulting anyone over any ship is extremely wrong and immature. going after people who worked on the show for not condemning a ship is wrong. i also see a lot of people say to wincest shippers that they are probably attracted to their own siblings. once again, these are fictional characters. if you feel comfortable saying that to a real person and without any shame then that says a lot about you. people ship things and explore subjects in fiction for different reasons and it does not mean that it is a one to one reflection of their morals

and lastly, maybe slightly unrelated, saying that wincest shippers have invaded tumblr, ao3, or now rednote is dumb. they were there first, they've been around since 2005. they made these platforms what they are today and they aren't going anywhere no matter how much others bully them

if you got this far then thank you for reading

[newtwithinternet]

TDP S7 ending really said "If the world faces a great crisis, the most important thing you have to care about is not resolving it, but keeping your hands nice and clean. no, we aren't saying that there IS a way to solve the crisis without dire methods, we are saying that someone else (who is conveniently stained already) will eventually show up to do the dirty work INSTEAD of you. and you'll be good for letting them do it."

[dukeofthomas]

I need people to realize how horrible 'stalking/constant surveillance/breaking into each other's homes is how the Batfamily show love' is. Like i really need someone to just acknowledge how horrific saying this bullshit is.

Like even fics where they're shown as happy and healthy and with good ties, you've always got this thing where none of them have privacy or any boundaries with each other. Which is directly antithetical to actually having good relationships. And this invasion via hacking and stalking and breaking into homes is portrayed as a positive, good thing; it's just how they show love and care to each other, after all. But for some reason I just personally don't find stalking, lack of privacy or boundaries, and emotional manipulation funny, endearing, or healthy, and just end up disgusted at the attempt to sweep it all under the rug.