#And s15 is good no criticisms there

[nyaskitten]

And if I said most of Garmadon’s designs ranged from okay to awful, what then?

[ladylightning]

you don't understand supernatural is 6 different shows that have nothing to do with the showrunner eras. s1-3 is a cult classic tv show nobody watched when it was on air that is now revered as an american gothic-western family drama that ended too soon. s4-5 is a critically acclaimed american gods inspired limited series that won two emmys. s6-8 is a weird spin-off of the vampire diaries that's considered a camp masterpiece by a niche group of weirdos online for its simultaneously gay AND homophobic subtext. s9 is a terrible cw show that's ripping off so many things at once and no one watched it. s10-11 is the passion project of a famous screenwriter and it's later revealed that the concept started as s4-5 fanfiction, but it's still pretty good so everybody lets it slide. s12-14 is the reboot of the s6-8 vampire diaries spin-off because the weirdos campaigned for a reunion but it didn't live up to hype, but the gay subtext stuff was pretty good anyways. s15? there wasn't a s15 sorry you must be thinking of a different show.

[grif-hawaiian-rolls]

Anyways the “essay” about the energy sword to character development pipeline below the cut

Ok so like yea tucker-crunchbite-junior is, obviously, the first instance of the sword-quest-companion theme/trio that im like, rattling in my head rn

Tucker finds the sword, crunchbite shows up and theres the “quest” that challenges tucker both in the false intent (you need to be the hero) and the true intent (SA leading to Junior which is not handled well but it IS important) which is a push against tucker’s character thus far in that he’s the comic relief, make everything a sex joke archetype— he doesnt take it seriously, he doesnt see himself as important beyond getting just enough recognition to be “hot” and now he’s made to be the so called “hero” and the true plot puts him in the one position that he probably never thought could be him. Bc he wants to get laid so��� yeah. Pushes his character if you give it like three seconds of critical thinking and not just the standard “haha alien baby bullshit” (that said, i do enjoy fics that explore crunchbite more and play with the potential of the “joke” shitty character into someone less sinister, but im doin my best to stick to canon rn)

And JUNIOR, oh man, because theres the thing that really solidifies this for me like

The dude who doesnt care doesnt bother is all jokes and ‘man whatever’ energy is a dad, and it starts with him trying to avoid it but he really fucking quickly steps the FUCK up for Junior and its the start of his development that people are like “oh he learns to be a leader on chorus” which i mean kinda yeah but he never struck me as a Leader even on Chorus even tho he does decidedly lead, its not the same as when kimball leads or when wash leads or carolina

He’s leads as a dad bc he is a dad

Not always a good one, but he’s trying and yea sometimes that means being the asshole, sometimes that means screwing up but it also means you fucking care and you take responsibility and you put yourself in danger first (the rescue mission, leaving the lieutenants behind)

And that doesnt start on chorus! Its the most evident there sure but

it starts with junior

It starts with him going after tex to protect his son, it starts with him trying to be a diplomat so they stay together, in sending junior away so he is safe while tucker buys time protecting the temple, it STARTS with him looking at church and going “leave my kid out of this” and yeah the way rvb was written and approached does Not take that seriously bc it wouldnt and if it did it would be a very different show but the implications are there and its acknowledged with tucker’s photograph of junior with his 5th grade basketball team (“i know right? Who carries actual pictures anymore” -tucker) which i could go on about THAT too but suffice to say its very clear that tucker cares so gd much about his kid and yeah his character development isnt super linear but you can basically pinpoint when it starts with the sword and junior

The second run of this trio of things is actually grif which is admittedly, a stretch, a big ol reaching for straws (okay, TECHNICALLY grif is the third run, but i’ll address that in a minute) largely a stretch bc grif… does the pattern backwards

This IS S16 stuff so if ur a shisno paradox hater i respect that, i however am gnawing on it with everything i have and will be going feral so this is your warning thank u for reading the tucker side of it mwah appreciate ya

Anyways

Grif does his plot backwards during timetravel shenanigans

He gets the alien companion/friend who contrasts his character first in Huggins

Grif is a loyal friend, but he is lazy, even after s15’s breakdown and apparent change of tune, he’s still looking to take the path of least resistance, avoiding the call, trying to keep things from moving

Enter Huggins: zippy, full of energy, excitable and just so different in that she is not only so proactive she puts herself in danger (which helps everyone in the long run/plot but its the principle) but shes so fucking lonely

As far as she knows, her family is dead, except for muggins who is so dettached from her, he might as well be a coworker and not her brother

Compared to grif, who has a family even when he tries to push them away (the reds, the blues, KAIKAINA) but hates taking action

Huggins is the start for grif’s arc of “it sucks but someones gotta do it” which in their case is best shown as the trudge across the bottom of the english channel which is so fucking funny to me but it really pushes both of them and puts them firmly in the friends category

Huggins cant zip ahead without grif, grif cant stop moving because huggins wont let him, so they find their little balance of gas vs brakes and together they cruise along p well

The actual push of the “quest” is grif having to be the one who steps up (kinda like tucker but its to the left) he’s the one who starts getting everyone together again across the timeline, even if he is very,,,

Well he’s very Grif about it, but it is still fundamentally, the change in character

Tucker isn’t a always good dad, Grif isn’t always a good instigator of action

But theyre trying and theyre working on it and grif’s arc suffers a Little from being so late in the show and thus not having much of a parallel to pull on but you could argue he gets the parallel from s15 anyways with the refusal of the call (from fake church/loco) and rescue mission but i hesitate to call that a parallel bc its literally back to back but an argument could be made for it which i love

Enter part two: the alien quest giver

“Wait wasnt that huggins”

NOPE huggins was alien companion! The Bestie in grif’s case,

The alien fetch quest comes from atlas, in that stupid wishing sequence but cmon it wouldnt be rvb if the character development wasnt sandwiched inbetween obnoxious gags and stupidity

The quest is less important here admittedly bc again, with grif doing this in reverse its not the challenge to his principle character that it was for tucker, his connection to huggins was the challenge, and this becomes the final push into the development, the “you have a role, now play it” that gives grif the final shove into Doing Things literal!! And his prize? For this character development arc? An alien sword

And thus the inverse version reaches an end, sort of (im pissed that technically he loses his sword, im also ignoring that he loses it in canon bc he fucking earned it okay this is a bit of canon i will ignore and loophole my way around it)

And now we track back to Chorus and to the second iteration of the sword-quest-companion plot

Locus

Now okay i will admit this is conjecture and pepe-silvia-on-corkboard-with-red-string fuckery at this point but hear me out okay!

He gets the sword with Felix’s death. We know this. What we dont know is how the fucking hell he gets off Chorus! We just see him show up later with A’rynasea. The vaguely alien (maybe sentient?? AI? Its implied with the way he addresses her but we literally have her for like two episodes) ship that seems to be the driving force (literal) (bc shes his ship) behind his chosen redemption arc where he pushes himself to help others at no apparent benefit to himself, but because it is, and i quote “the right thing to do”

Arguably, Santa could be Locus’ quest giver, seeing as how he is the one who triggers the whole shift in view for Locus in the first place and that is, technically, what crunchbite does and what atlas finalizes for grif! But the problem is we simply dont have enough of A’rynasea to draw the parallel between her and Locus as personalities, as companions for it to work for me??? But that might just be me overthinking? But it does make Locus’ version is a bit messier depending on who you consider his quest-giver but as far as I’m concerned, he’s still on his quest snd its just up to interpretation if A’rynasea is his companion?? or if theres a secret third alien for Locus that we never wouldve seen even if they planned for that bc its red vs blue and im just delusional about locus and his role in plot and this is just me firing concepts blindly into the sky at this point like - yeah i could still theorize what kind of companion characterization i think locus would work well with bc its more about the wielder than the companion in this sense (sorry junior and huggins i love yall i promise) but thats a completely separate rant at this point and not nearly coherent enough at this exact moment to add it PLUS its ridiculously self indulgent and only marginally canon compliant/adjacent but i will never not be amused by this very specific plot beat happening enough to draw these parallels, as tenuous and vague as the parallels are

[monstermoviedean]

it's honestly beyond wild how easily dean lets cas off for some pretty irredeemable, unforgiveable stuff with no understanding or even acknowledgement on cas' part of the kind of incredible actual-no-strings gift he's been given (and thrown away, rinse, repeat). i can appreciate the take that it just goes to show how deeply braindead in love dean is (and i might still be able to find the romance in it if there was ever any kind of equal or at least comparable weight on cas' end) but he can do (and has done) (and deserves) so much better! rip!! on a list of all dean's boyfriends ranked in order of how well they treated him cas would come in dead last.. can't even rate him over the ones that tried to kill dean because uh cas has not only done that too but also done that more than most (without even factoring in the mind control) lol wanky maybe but that doesn't make it untrue womp womp

anyway the trap effectively killed many of my charitable feelings for cas and despair took care of much of the rest. i know you're not there yet and still manage some warmth for cas besides (plus my post s15 cas/destiel opinions probably trend significantly more harshly than even the rare and wonderful few who have been openly critical of both that aren't br*nly/c*sties, i can acknowledge that lol) but after the trap and knowing what's still to come, it's very difficult for me to see cas-as-dean's-endgame being a positive thing for dean. that may be what he wants but like please for the love @ him: want better!!! i mean, s6 was tough but also so crunchy and opened the door for a world of (tragically unrealized) possibilities. the shadow that s15 and everything leading up to it casts over all of that is just.. so so long. there's been so many opportunities for cas to be better and he just. wastes them.

i'm so interested to see what your takeaway from despair is because it left me feeling kind of hollow on destiel and deeply skeptical of cas when stacked up against everything else. cas may be in love with his idea of dean but he's proven over and over again that he's either incapable of or unwilling to be and see dean as an equal, loving partner. idk if it's a fault in the writing (feels like a cop out to pin things on that though, especially when cas is actually written fairly consistently compared to most other characters) or just that mc isn't as dynamic/effective an actor as jackles but i find myself less and less convinced of cas' sincerity as time goes on. he's wildly selfish. i think it's far easier to make the argument in canon that everything he's done, including that confession, has been far more selfishly motivated than motivated by any genuine love or care for dean (or jack for that matter). maybe an uncharitable assessment, but not an unfounded one.

what dean says about angel's caring and cas playing sorry in 7x21 and cas insisting he's "a lot like people" to rowena's (very apt) assessment of him in 10x22 are always top of my mind when i try to make sense of cas in the aftermath. he's not sorry, he's playing sorry. he's not people, he's performing people. angels don't have souls and i'm not sure i really buy grace as a substitute but, even if i did, cas' has been waning for a very long time (which i wish had been explored more considering all of the weight the canon puts on having a soul). cas isn't that far removed from donatello who, in his soullessness, turned to mr rogers for behavioral cues. cas holds dean in that role, he's just not especially good at emulating him. or maybe just doesn't understand what it is he should be emulating. all of that to say that i really, truly believe cas wants to feel people feelings (feelings is dean as people is dean as humanity is dean etc etc etc), i'm just not sure if i buy that it's ever more than performance for him.

like fanfic is great, i love fanfic! post s15 fix-its moving further and further away from the "dean pulls his head out of his ass" model is such a gift!! but in actual canon?? ough. cas' very long, very well established patterns make canon destiel a super hard sell for me in a post s15 world. there's no reason to believe that things would ever change because, to the bitter end(?), they never did.

anyway anyway, i'm sorry for using your inbox as a rantbox and i fully understand if you ignore this, i know parts of it might be kind of a powder keg lol it's hard to not be cynical and frustrated by so much squandered potential i suppose, especially when so much of the fandom popular opinions on these things have been just so. bad and wrong. for so long. it's been a relief to see some of those tides turning as more people revisit the source material, though! please just know that i really have enjoyed following along on your rewatch and appreciate how much thought and care you put into understanding this show and these characters. i'm looking forward to seeing where what's left of the journey takes you!

there are some points here i agree with and some i don't, but i can entirely see where you're coming from. i just want to extend some love to you because yeah, sometimes this story is really incredibly frustratingly sad and bleak. also no need to apologize, i love inbox rants <3

i'm publishing this because i think there are a lot of interesting points of discussion about cas and his relationship with dean. blanket statement for anyone who might read it: i am not interested in cas-bashing or anon-bashing. don't do that here. or anywhere, frankly.

to start off: it IS beyond wild that dean lets cas off for some things. breaking sam's wall is the first example that comes to mind. i mean wow, good for dean for being the bigger person and forgiving there, but holy shit.

i'm gonna politely disagree with you on cas treating dean badly. i do see where you're coming from! this is something i've talked about before re: cas actually - that sometimes the way dean treats cas is viewed as poor treatment, but in actuality cas doesn't receive it that way at all. so cas' tendency to put the mission first, for example, is something that dean GETS. dean doesn't feel like cas is neglecting him by doing this. i think there are also circumstances in which cas' actions are understandable, even if i don't like them. and a lot of the "constant apocalypse" problems lead to responses that don't have a real-world equivalent. all that being said, i think one thing cas could fix/address is answering his phone when dean calls him.

on dean doing better - i think people in dean's life could and should treat him better. i also think he loves and cares about those people and would not trade them out, and i respect that.

on cas being better - mixed feelings on this. i totally understand where you're coming from and don't want to invalidate you here or at any point! i think cas is trying to be better. i think he's locked into a pattern where he only sees one option for being better - fixing things / getting wins / sacrificing himself / otherwise protecting dean and sparing dean harm. i feel for him there, i really do. smarter people than me have pointed to heaven brainwashing/upbringing as the reason this pattern exists. so i don't expect him to break out of that pattern, but i do think it's reasonable to wish he had come to recognize that this DOES harm dean. i think cas often believes he knows how dean feels. sometimes he's right, sometimes he's wrong. and in this case while dean can understand why cas is doing what he's doing and respect his decisions enough to not put up a fight about them, it does hurt dean to watch cas walk away into certain danger over and over. it especially hurts when dean has no power in the situation and is left with nothing to do but to hope cas comes back.

so i have actually seen 15x18 and have some feelings about it but i don't want to comment until i see it again. i know i missed a ton of context the first time i watched it (november 6 2020 after not having watched the show in a few years), and i'm interested to see how my interpretation changes!

one opinion i have that i don't think will change: i believe cas' pattern of keeping secrets to protect dean, then having those secrets blow up, causing dean pain and/or causing cas to leave, is not disrupted. i believe 15x18 reinforces this pattern, in fact. and i do not like that. i do appreciate that cas did it for love and he was backed into a horrible corner, and at the same time, from dean's perspective, it's another example of cas leaving.

on cas not seeing dean as an equal partner. hoooo boy, this one gave me pause. i am very conflicted about this, to be honest. i think cas THINKS he sees dean as an equal partner, but i'm not sure he actually does. i'm also not sure he treats him like one. consistently, at least. i think they're equals when they're dealing with "ordinary" problems (monsters, people), but when the problems are angel-level or higher, i think cas thinks he has more ability to solve those problems than dean does. sometimes he's right (cas should be the one talking to michael in 15x08, for example). but not always. and i could see that coming across as patronizing. i want to think more about this one!

on cas' selfishness. this is tough because i think cas is trying to be selfless in a way that comes across as selfish. he wants to be the hero. he believes he can be the hero. he wants to spare others from being the hero. and while that's usually well-intentioned (taking on burdens so others don't have to), it can read as "no one else is capable of this but me." and i think the major problem is that cas looks at things from a 30,000-foot level. he is often less concerned with the ground-level impacts. so when he's, idk, saying yes to lucifer, he's thinking "someone has to and it may as well be me" but he's not thinking "oh shit dean is going to have to watch lucifer parade me around and then kill me." while i understand his reasoning in these high-stakes no-win situations and i'm not mad about it, i do wish he would consider the impacts of his small decisions on others more often. sorry to bring up the phone thing again but it's the best example i've got - it would be nice if cas made it more of a priority to answer his phone when dean calls because it's important to dean, even if it isn't important to cas. it will help dean feel more secure and they will have a nice conversation because they enjoy talking to each other. we have hints of this kind of thing happening but i would like to see it more clearly and consistently. or like. icing sam out during the rupture was pretty shitty. he could have at least texted back. (yes he was in a bad spot, no he doesn't have to respond to sam all the time, but a little 'i'm not dead' text would have made a big difference)

i think "uncharitable but not unfounded" is very understandable. i, personally, believe cas loves and cares about dean. i also could come up with some examples of cas' actions that, regardless of intent, communicate to dean that this is not true. i think if you want to make a case that cas doesn't care, you can. i wouldn't agree with it, and i think there's a better case that cas does care, but i do recognize that the show itself leaves that door open. and it does bother me. i would feel better if cas showed more consistent and obvious care for dean TO dean.

i think cas does confuse/equate feeling guilty with feeling sorry. i think he does both, but sometimes he is playing sorry. i think his defense of jack at the end of s14 contradicts his claims of being sorry, for example. but i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he is actually sorry most of the other times.

on cas' feelings - i see where you're coming from, and i disagree here. i think cas does have feelings, even if he doesn't always know what they are or how to process them. someone (i think ilarual?) made a cool post about cas growing a soul that i thought was a neat idea. but i can certainly sympathize with wanting the show to do more with angels, grace, angel feelings, etc.

i do believe cas is sincere in his care and in wanting to do better, and that's one reason i have faith in dean and cas being able to work it out and be good for each other! i think that's a major difference between our perspectives. and i don't have an answer here, because again, i see where you're coming from. if you're open to it, i might suggest considering cas' actions from a perspective that he's 100% sincere 100% of the time. it might be interesting to try, even if it doesn't change your opinions at all (and you definitely don't have to try it or change your opinions).

one million billion trillion percent agree on squandered potential. there are so many problems we've discussed here that i think could be fixed with attention and goodwill. but will they be fixed? sigh. i don't know. i like to believe so, but cynicism is also a fair response. i think a lot of my feelings come down to this question: if the show had continued, would 15x18 have been a turning point? would it have finally allowed dean and cas to change their relationship? or would it have set it in stone, never to be changed again? i think it's a matter of interpretation. i tend toward the former - that 15x18 would have changed everything and allowed them space to finally get it right - but i can also see why the latter works, especially because the show ending DID set it in stone that way.

it HAS been a relief to see shifts in conversation, and i hope they continue. and thank you so so much for your very kind words! they are not necessary but they are appreciated :) i often feel like i'm just fumbling around in the dark compared to a lot of others, and it's nice to hear i haven't completely mucked it up. also i really enjoyed answering this, so thanks for giving me so much to chew on!

[fandom-hoarder]

Anybody who thinks that abomination of a TWin finale was BETTER than the spn finale or FIXED anything about it can fuck right off, tbh. Bad vibes, dnw.

Like the biggest thing about TWin is it's INSULTING.

It's insulting that it's called "the winchesters", when The Winchesters are Sam and Dean. It's insulting that those involved kept telling people to trust them and "canon we got you" and stringing people along a whole fucking pointless season. It's insulting that they claimed they were so passionate about it when it's... Like This. When clearly no one could bother to even consult the canon, or hire actors who would be faithful to the OG representations. When it feels like a really cheap cash grab, when the interviews with Robbie and Jensen tell a story of people who knew they HAD to make this work, but didn't actually have a vision or focus for it. When Danneel appears to have been given way too much creative control despite not actually watching most of spn. When her passion for the project appeared to be the clothes she and Jensen could be photographed in -- this isn't wife hate, this is sincere criticism of someone who had creative control in a project they didn't even know the canon for.

It's insulting they spent the money for good music and played actual Led Zeppelin in THIS STUPID FINALE.

I know the last seasons of spn got pretty out there, got pretty stupid and lackluster (ghosts redux but daytime? Ehh), but at least in s15 they were running through "greatest callbacks" territory. TWin was not only worse quality, it had no fucking purpose. They didn't have a STORY TO TELL at all. You think THIS was where they were originally heading with that "Dean" voiceover from the pilot, talking about the true story of his parents?

THOSE WEREN'T EVEN HIS PARENTS. THAT WASN'T EVEN THEIR STORY. AND WHY WOULD JACK RECREATE THE MULTIVERSES AND INCLUDE CHUCK'S AKRIDA FAILSAFE? WHY WOULD *DEAN* HAVE TO FIX IT IN THE FIRST PLACE? *HOW* CAN HE GIVE THEM THE COLT AND "HIS JOURNAL"🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 -- AND, WHAT, JUST LET THE COLT DISAPPEAR FROM PRIME UNIVERSE?

AND THESE PEOPLE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE THE SAME BEGINNING AS DEAN'S PARENTS; WHY WOULD GIVING THEM A JOURNAL EVEN HELP?

(None of these questions are important enough for an s2, mind you; this show gets the atla live action treatment--never happened, doesn't count)

THE WHOLE FUCKING REASONING IS JUST POINTLESS AND STUPID. AND THERE DIDN'T SEEM TO EVER BE ANY REAL STAKES FOR THIS SCOOBY GANG ALL SEASON. It was The Magic Tree House, with all the answers handed to them. (Not to mention the pretty bad acting I witnessed from Meg -- a too-short-to-be-Mary-when-Drake-is-that-tall Claire lookalike I'm supposed to believe as Mary🙄 --and the total lack of JohnMary chemistry, and the weird af lore breaking holywater!hair vamp splash that started as a joke and shouldn't have even made it onto the page🤦‍♀️-- if you wanted to be that kind of camp you should've just done a straightup AU spinoff, and not tried to tie this in to the OG while LYING about "canon we got you" and getting your tone all the fuck wrong)

This doesn't fix anything from spn finale--NOTHING NEEDED FIXED. Whatever gripes there may be about aspects of the spn finale, essentially it was PERFECT. THIS bullshit takes a Dean who had finally come to terms with the life they'd lived, who had his actual loved ones largely available in heaven (and Sam on earth, but knowing he'd meet Dean up there, and time is different in Heaven), and takes away any character growth the spn finale suggested-- because he's ALREADY LEARNED THIS LESSON ABOUT TRYING TO CHANGE THE PAST WTF.

Also, that was not Dean. I get that Jensen probably couldn't cut his hair or whatever, but that turtleneck sweater was not an outfit OG Dean would wear, AND Jensen seems to have forgotten how to do the Dean voice/accent. They should've said it was huntercorp!Dean or something, cuz that was not the Dean that died in 15.20 and went to Heaven and took a drive to wait for Sam.

The only correct thing in TWin finale is that Sam was still Dean's #1, and all the SamDean parallels to JohnMary throughout the show get rights for preserving that. But the JohnMary was so dull.

This ridiculous show is NOT CANON, and I hope whatever future endeavors come out of spnverse has greater respect for the OG and its fandom, and better writing and casting. (I would prefer for it to die than become another abomination.)

I'm sorry for Drake's decent acting that this was the story he got, since he seemed to actually be a fan of the og -- even though some of his comments lost him some points with me. Sorry for some of the other wannabe scooby gang actors, who should've just gotten their own spoofy spinoff. I would be happy to not see Meg in anything ever again -- not that I wish for an end to her career, just that *I* won't have to see her face act. I would also be ecstatic for the Ackles' friends to not be cast in roles they're unsuited for just so they can all work together 🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄 how the fuck was that supposed to be Samuel?

You make a variety show for this shit, not a fucking prequel-that's-not-a-prequel. Good grief. Get you some good people that will tell you no. Maybe talk to Jared about it, jfc. He actually gets thoughtful about his headcanons.

[onionjulius]

ER seasons by the numbers

Because any conversation about ER eventually turns to the changes in focus, tone, and quality that happened over its hefty 15 seasons, I want to revisit the show's overall trajectory over the course of my rewatch. TV habits were and will always be dynamic, and I don't want to imply that the changes that happened around the ER era are in some way special without bringing receipts, but if nothing else this particular Then vs Now is interesting to me personally because I've lived it, and it's fun (in any case, it's human) to connect the dots of one's reality. For sure, popularity and critical acclaim are probably related to intrinsic quality, but maybe also technology, social moods, that ineffable need of the zeitgeist to reinvent itself every so often, what have you. Oh, and probably money.

So for now, here's how ratings changed throughout the 15 seasons, alongside showrunner & cast info, award nominations, and three different rankings of the seasons I found while traversing the internets. Obviously I'll be curious to compare my own opinion once I'm done with this rewatch, especially for the latter seasons since I never made it past That One Season 10 Episode.

(I don't know why ER's ratings for S14 weren't available.)

In terms of Nielsen rankings, the inflection points seem to be S10-S11 and S14-S15. In terms of average viewers (which I improperly labeled on the last image as "Ratings," but am too lazy to go back and fix), the inflection points seem to be S4-S5 and S10-S11. Because broadcast TV was losing viewers as a whole, rankings might act roughly as a normalized trend ("subtracting" the overall trend). (Season 5 is interesting because the ranking goes up while the number of average viewers goes down, and this is a year ahead of Millionaire's debut. This happens again in S7.) Also, I forgot to put it on the image, but S11 was the first season that ER aired without Friends.

Regarding the cast, there's a lot of consistency/consolidation from S1-S3 and from S11-S15, whereas S4-S10 is a period of fairly steady rotation (caveat: Margulies' departure in S6 and Edwards' departure in S8 often come up when people describe when they quit ER). Personally, since I quit in S10, everyone through Mekhi Phifer and Sharif Atkins "feels ER" to me. Uncle Jesse OTOH just makes me confused.

Regarding awards, S2 was the last time that ER won an Emmy in a major category, other than guest acting, until the final season (Best Director for the final episode). S6 was the last time ER was nominated for a lead acting Emmy, and S7 was the last time it was nominated for a supporting acting Emmy. Overall ER's most successful category for Emmy nominations, excluding technical categories, is the guest acting category.

And re. showrunners: during S1-S6, the showrunner was someone who was with the show since S1 (John Wells or Lydia Woodward). During S7-S15, the showrunner was someone who joined the show later (Orman-S4, Zabel-S8). S7 is often regarded as the season that ER went dark (harkening back to that certain S6 episode in which ER "lost its innocence").

From this + poking around the internet, the general consensus on "goodness" of seasons seems to be:

S2, S3, S4

S1

S5, S6

S7, S8, S9, S15

S10, S11, S12, S13

S14

(And this brings up another question: is ER most properly split up into 2 eras of 7-8 seasons each, 3 eras of 5 seasons each, or 4 eras of 3-4 seasons each? This is bothering me more than it should.)

But of course, 22-25 episodes per season is a lot, especially compared to the length of scripted TV seasons now, so it'd also be neat to get into the ratings trends within each season, and what the numbers might hide. And maybe ... maybe I'll end up with some kind of opinion on when ER "should have" ended. With asterisks. Lots of asterisks. Maybe.

Anyway, I should probably be working ...

[joltning]

i forgot I never posted this here so.

how I see desert gulch is as people they COULD have realistically ended up as. like in a kind of “bad ending” where nothing caused them to grow and they just kind of simmer in their hatred. they already kind of mention how like, if Church didn’t die Tucker would grow more powerful and eventually die due to his own hubris. more of that pls. more small differences butterfly effecting. THATS LITERALLY THE THEME OF S15.

more under cut

i Lied. this is not a comprehensive post this is me slightly rewriting my rambles

adding the theme of the past coming back (instead of consequences) I’d LOVE Love Love to see some of the older speeches come back but be spun on their heads. Sarge’s rally speech being changed to one of hate by surge pointing out the negatives in the reds and blues instead? kimball’s speech being said by temple “fight because you deserve to win”?? PLEASE. HEAR ME.

temple: Please give him a water theme. I’ve mentioned this before but having desert gulch be a cold desert like sidewinder initially and then slowly melting into an ocean signifying the bitter, burning hatred for everything around him, also leaning into Carolina’s rivals being fire themed? PLEASE. it would also foil church with him growing farther from all the rest of the members adding onto his “nice on outside bad on inside” reverse of him. ALSO. MAKE TUCKER REALIZE ITS A BACKSTAB WAAAY BETTER. he’s been through this shit before. he knows what’s up.

buckey: there is so much for me to say but I don’t have the right words to say it. Tucker is such a strongly built character that with any of the wrong moves could have crumbled into the worst person possible. Most prominently, he’s very honest and while he does have an ego, puts his friends first. Buckey is already a SLIMEY bitch but he needs to be a liar, egotistical, and a show off at any opportunity. But not a good fighter. Noo.

surge: thanks for putting it into words youtube comment section. Make him like early seasons where he didn’t really give a shit about his soldiers at all. I really need that parallel theme to shine through with him berating his soldiers while Sarge uplifts them and clearly cares.

Gene: make him clearly disloyal from the start. he’s already pretty good but I’d love to see him backstab surge to climb the ranks. Simmons is bitchy and always critical, but I need gene to be a HATER. literally just straight up ready to claw at anyone to get his way. he is his ONLY priority.

cronut: instead of having an echo chamber of sex jokes how about you actually make him the most “alpha male” kind of person ever with the densest “i would never make a joke like that” shit ever make his masculinity so frail it would not only be funny but would be great contrast and make sense with how donut could have ended up. Sorry Cronut fans

the main difference here is that each of these characters would end up here due to their strained relationship, and clearly only tolerate each other due to necessity. the reds and blues don’t even have to do that much. they just have to sow the seeds of doubt that already exist, and wait for them to all crumble apart in a butterfly effect of hate that had always been there. And watch on, as every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

[br1ghtestlight]

weird to think that next season could be the last season of bob's burgers EVER. like I don't think it will be (it has good viewership and s13 and s14 have some of the highest rated and most critically-acclaimed episodes of the show so the quality is still pretty consistent) but we don't have any confirmation of renewal past s15 so we could be facing like the last 30 episodes of the show right now. which feels rude like wtf I just got here!!! let me settle in at least before u go.....

[dothwrites]

'our father who aren't in heaven' is sure a buckleming episode! fifty thousand characters, at least ten subplots, and somehow, entertaining in spite of it.

i AM furious at dean "not knowing" the achilles heel reference. this is a man who canonically reads homer and who is interested in movies like clash of titans. this is a cheap "hurr hurr dean is stupid" joke made at his expense and i will NOT stand for this 'dean is stupid' slander

the scene where everyone is watching donnatello translate the tablet is so ridiculous that it is entertaining. (additionally how much is on that demon tablet? there's been about twenty different pieces of information on that tablet. how did they find room for it?)

"if you want to stay here then stay here" said to cas when cas' love language is the phrase "i could go with you". dean is still so BRUTAL here and it's still so painful.

at least in the fight with charlie's demonic angels, EVERYONE is getting their ass kicked. "are any of us winning" is a line that has no business being as funny as it is

ROWENA! MY LOVE! MY GREATEST LOVE! queen of hell is actually the perfect character arc for her. it is so fitting. we also love rowena as a relationship counselor. dean and cas both say "it's fine" like "i love him; talk to HIM". and rowena says "fix it" like it's the easiest thing in the world (and you know what? it could be!). it just kills me HOW MUCH attention was given in the divorce arc to dean and cas' relationship and how integral to the show it was. and then in the last bit of the show it is DROPPED! like a hot potato!

jake abel looked at misha and jensen and said "i do not NEED a coworker; i will have extraordinary chemistry with MYSELF" and then proceeded to do exactly that. but seeing jake abel on my spn screen again after ten years was DELIGHTFUL.

this conversation between dean and sam is why i do not UNDERSTAND this idea that "dean wouldn't want sam to be with someone who was in the life". dean is so openly supportive of sam's relationship with eileen, and he GENUINELY enjoys her company. why is there the idea that dean doesn't support their relationship????

castiel's eyes should ALWAYS flash blue! i also enjoyed the idea of cas being the one to pray to michael for a meeting. and then "i didn't come to beg" like! what a fucking POWER MOVE. my GOD! cas and michael share a lot of good moments in this episode, and it's fun to think about cas, who is this insignificant seraph, finally catching michael's attention.

cas baiting michael into snapping... the BALLS on this angel are unbelievable. but he knows it's the only way he's going to get close enough to michael to make him see the truth! he's so smart! "we didn't bond" whoever told cas that he wasn't funny is a DAMN LIAR. and dean is STILL second-guessing cas! he's still criticizing cas' choices and how he chooses to go about things. annoying!

love how things like getting in and out of purgatory become so ridiculously simple in the later seasons. cas and crowley spend an entire season trying to find purgatory and in s15, michael snaps his fingers and BAM! there it is.

"since when do we get what we deserve" i am WEAK. i know that rich said that the glance to cas wasn't necessarily intentional but it still FEELS intentional.

[treecakes]

i AM anime critical of so much stuff lol i love to complain abt how stuff is adapted but truly i love it. even if they change so many seemingly minor but important details. and even some clearly extremely relevant ones. would love to see how they fix all of that if they ever adapt the whole series. s15 and they go ah shit. that was actually relevant 13 seasons later. or whatever. because midorikawa IS really good at doing that.

[scoobydoodean]

where would you place spnwin season 1 in a supernatural cinematic universe season ranking? (ik s15 would probably be last)

It's hard for me to even say ngl because to me it does feel very different from spn? Like it feels very distinct from SPN to me until 1.12 and 1.13. It feels more scooby gang than gothic horror + redneck dragon ball Z. Less angst, more fun, which probably should be refreshing... but I guess I like the disease. Like just generally, I'll say I don't find spnwin as compelling as SPN? But it has a great soundtrack, and I did like Carlos and Latika, and this AU John and Mary were also interesting to watch in the same way 4.03 and etc were interesting. The writing was solid (it had to be with the episode constraints involved) and knew what it wanted to say.

I think it's a solid season of TV (besides a little bit of a pacing issue in the Pilot). Like especially for a CW show. But it's probably not very accessible to people who didn't watch SPN, and given the way a good 2/3 of the fandom was immediately against watching it, I'm not at all surprised it didn't get renewed.

The episodes that interested me most were 1.09, 1.12 and 1.13, and it's because 1.09 and 1.12 are obvious criticisms of the SPN finale, and 1.13 gives me back MY Dean instead of whoever that guy in 15.20 was. So like. 100% it is a better season of TV than season 15 to me. But it also kinda feels like comparing apples and oranges to go beyond that, weirdly.

[cutemeat]

you dont like s10??? so many good episodes! but then again I dont like s3 and loads of people do so maybe im wrong

see im even one of the people ur talkin abt cuz i LOOOVE s3 but- NAH! I LIKE S10! i just meant like... if im putting myself in the shoes of a s10 viewer i'd probs be having the same conflicted thoughts ive had watching sunny air live from s15-s16. cuz i do have criticisms of s10, like a big one being i think Misses the Boat was way weaker meta than like Buys a Boat (even tho the chardee arc in that ep as a criticism of m/f pairings on tv was p great and i LOVE the melodrama of the macden arc in that ep) and just a lot of the typical qualms ppl have with newer sunny- the flanderization and plots feeling less character-centric than past seasons, but tbh i have such a soft spot for the later seasons lmao.. like i LOOOVE s13.. even tho it was an objective creative failure that even rcg admits this n i agree with that. so like... just cuz i can have a lot of criticisms of the later seasons, doesn't mean i don't still love 'em!

[str4ng3rdanger]

For the ask thing 😈 what’s your favourite

season 😈

okay so since you're an rvb mutual we are gonna assume rvb here anyway 👽

my favorite season is probably either s13, s15, or s8. they all have their own reasons.,......

s13 is just good because chorus trilogy, obv, but also the way the season begins decently light-hearted (given the situation) and quickly turns up until the point that epsilon legitimately dies is wild. there is a reason people argue it should have been where the show ended.

s15........honestly if s16-17 didn't exist i would also believe rvb could have ended there. we get more clarity into how our reds and blues weren't the only ones affected by the freelancers and while it obviously doesn't have the same character development as s13 (and the antagonist is definitely much more cringefail than the mercs) but the steaks are still high for our group of protagonists. their strongest fighters are separated from them and nearly killed by the most pathetic wet rat imaginable and the way tucker feels after realizing he was being tricked by temple, the way caboose is trying to cope with church's death, the way sarge isn't able to settle, the way simmons and grif go insane without each other, the way lopez being able to be just a head is critically plot relevant, the way donut's arc in s16-17 is foreshadowed, and like...temple's backstory is so much worse when you think about how there could have been a whole number of sim groups that were negatively impacted by freelancers yet oblivious to their situation until temple found them...and no matter how good we see our ex-freelancers, or how good the other ex-freelancers may have been, it really shows how they hadn't considered this part of their past to ever catch up to them. even as temple is monologuing to wash and carolina as he traps them, saying "i was worried you might recognize my voice" and the like, she doesn't even pay him any mind, which feels representative of how little she had thought of what she did to freelancers in the past. this is the season where carolina really realizes all the wrong she had done (which...........also should have been done more with sharkface so they could have referenced him in s15 but whatever) and. and like . god this season

oh and s8's finale fucking bangs though it has to be the most heroic/cool finales we get considering it is the most feel-good imo since epsilon doesn't actually die/go away forever at this point and the action here is awesome in comparison to s15's, considering combat prowess is not relevant to why temple was a threat. s8 is also great just as a whole of how it is the finale season of the first arc that breaks us free from the goofy nature of bgc and it gives way for questions on project freelancers to be touched on in the next arc. but yeah idk this one bangs

okay yeah i think i just made myself like s15 the most by typing this el oh el

[darishima]

yap about yr favorite season also!!!!!! (:

YAAAY WOOOO !!!! i <3 u anon okay so. so so.

once again. just like the last one. my answer is unfortunately generic. season 12 is my favorite and not only is it my favorite i fully stand by the belief that its objectively the best season including international seasons. all stars 2 WOULD be my favorite and it would be my objective best pick if not for the riggery and bullshittery (COUGH COUGH ROXXXY ANDREWS) but even with that, i would consider it a close number two

season 12 is the least overly edited+produced season since like s3 because of the sherry pie bullshit (google that if you dont know. idk if you actually know anything about drag race or if youre just humoring me) seemingly forcing the producers to scrap all the manufactured storylines they'd built up. the only thing wrong with the entire season is the zoom finale and ofc the sherry pie situation but even that was handled surprisingly well by WOW (in comparison to how they handled other similar situations... cough cough shangela and plane jane). every single queen on it is incredibly talented, even the early outs (i mean when the FIRST OUT is a [former] haus of aja member that says a lot about the talent of the people who made it further) and it has some of the most underrated queens ever imo-- nicky doll and rock m sakura, specifically. it spawned SOOO many iconic moments-- jan's face crack, "look over there," feel the beat in the rhythm of the night, "i hate hate haaate your hair and makeup today" etc you get my point i could go on. it has some of the best music ever (the madonna rusical! im that bitch! uhh whatever that finale number was called which i somehow cant recall the name of but still know all the lyrics to!), i mean nicki fucking minaj was the guest on the first episode like it honestly just doesnt get better than 12. you get my point by now. 12 solos every other season EASY

as2 is like i said my number two. going into detail about as2 is pointless. read u wrote u, the mirror scene, all the lipsyncs (ALYSSA V TATIANNA HELLOOO??) the same parts, "party," all of it is just so fucking good. the only thing that bumps this slightly down for me, personally, is how alaska consistently won over katya in the lipsycs (and the crown obviously) when i fully believe katya deserved most of those wins. fym alaska won cherry bomb JUST CAUSE OF HER FUCKASS WIG FLAG?? FUCK YOU RUPAUL WHAT ABOUT THAT!! again NOT saying this just because i love katya im being as objective as i can be i just think she frequently loses lipsyncs she doesnt deserve to lose (kennedy v katya s7.... who said that!) and because im such a katya fan its infuriating to witness. im not a roxxxy hater per se,, just a roxxxy criticizer. so overall if those couple small things had been different it'd take number 1

number 3 belongs to my sweetheart season 13. this one is objectively not nearly as good as the first two and also worse than ones like s6 or 5 because of all the stupid ass twists that the producers pulled out just to try and top 12 (impossible) but there are SO many queens that i love to death that i just cant put it any lower. gottmik, of course, and denali and rose and symone and utica... it is dragged down by evil bitches like elliott with three k's and tina+ tamisha who i personally cant stand but those 3 are soo outweighed by the talents of the others that idec. also once again the music slaps (LUCKY <3) and the memes are incredible . season 13 they could never make me hate you

after those three i think the rest of my favs would go 4. season 6 5. UK season 2 6. season 5 7. all stars 3 8. season 7 9. all stars 6 10. season 9

oh and my least favorite season is 11 by far if that matters which is funny because 11's winner is in my like top 15 favorite queens also i have not yet watched s14 and s15 fully but im sure those will both enter my top ten easily when i do

[theredkennedys]

Aaa thank you for all the tags !! i agree w every point you made. i was initially kinda nervous to make the post bc i felt like maybe i was being too heavy and ruining the mood so having so many people reblog and agree means a lot. Tuckers hypersexualization got way worse after they confirmed his race (its also when the bow chicka bow wow phrase started) and its something im super sensitive to as a black person so seeing him just be a vessel for nasty jokes is so infuriating. And like you pointed out its nothing unique to Tucker, almost every character suffer from this. but more than often he's viewed as something to be used and discarded (hence my comment abt restoration). There ARE good sex jokes with Tucker that can be tasteful, my favourite being his camera bit during chorus training in s12, but then they also love throwing jokes like how he's a predator in s14 and a deadbeat dad in s15 and he "can't be taken advantage of" and it just adds up and up. Hes suchhhhh a good genuine interesting character and i firmly believe the shows quality kept suffering bc they refused to acknowledge his growth after s13.

ALSO THIS ENDED UP BEING WAY LONGER THAN I MEANT but ig that means we're twinning. anywaye my point is i think everything u said is correct and we're mutuals now

HAIIII XDD making friends over our mutual criticism of distasteful rvb jokes... so epic...

[wellofdean]

Tags from @ilarual (thank you for the peer review!): #yes exactly exactly!!!#is Dean a perfect parent?#no! firstly because absolutely no parent in the history of the species ever has been#and secondly because yeah he DOES have a major stumble in Unity when he's at the apex of basically a year-long extreme mental breakdown#it was devastatingly poor handling of the needs of his child during an emotional crisis when his emotional reserves#(which are already critically low on a good day because Dean has been pouring from an empty cup since he was a toddler)#reached their absolute lowest level possible. he had NOTHING left to give to anyone and was desperate for freedom in a caged animal way#and while yes Dean's words and actions ARE going to have an impact on his and Jack's relationship going forward#one that they're going to have to reconcile and deal with and integrate into that relationship going forward#it's not outweighed by the years of trust and simpatico and love between them you know?#Dean is still the parent who was consistently honest with him in a way he desperately wished his own father had been#Dean is still the parent who recognizes the burden Jack carries better even than Cas#Dean is still the father who taught him to drive and took him fishing#and made sure that he got to live his life on his own terms when he was dying#Dean is still the father who— when he recognized he wasn't equipped to handle the problems his child was having#rather than just writing it off or muddling along and potentially doing more damage by ignoring it#made the active choice to reach out to someone who had more expertise and got Jack support from someone with similar experiences#that's incredibly good parenting#like none of TFW are perfect parents. they're all bringing their own Issues™ into their parenting of Jack#but goddamn with the exception of a critical misstep in rhe eleventh hour Dean was a REALLY good parent to Jack#and it's time we acknowledge this

Amen! I agree completely. Dean doesn't have to be perfect, he has to do his best, and Jack knows that he was doing his best the whole time. He had a real falter, but can we really blame that poor man? Being a parent is HARD, and parents should get a little grace, and Jack is not an ordinary child.

And more... from @indistarlight: #and what's crazy is even that fucked up mistake in s15 is so dreadfully relatable and sympathetic#this is a man who has never been given a good thing in his entire life without a horrendous cost or shelf life to it#who has been trying to be a parent and mother and brother and warrior to people who should've been that for him#his needs are never being met. and he still tries to make the right decisions!#this mistake comes after being told that any modicum of peace he could have in his own choices was fake#i'm sorry if we start judging dean outside of the very supernatural very greek tragedy esque context he's existed in for decades#this isn't fair discourse anymore#it's a hit piece#jack loves and wants to imitate dean because he respects dean's true self!

Yes! And Jack is RIGHT to trust, respect and love Dean. Dean fucking earned it.

Thanks, y'all.

So...thinking about Dean and Jack...

Jack is not a child. He is NEW, but he is a cosmic being of unknowable power who was cognizant enough in the womb to save Kelly because he was still using her body as an incubator, and to show Cas a manipulative, glorious vision of his future actions specifically as they relate to Cas's desires. When he is born, he speaks English and understands peril, has the physical strength and angelic power to defend himself. He doesn't understand the world, but he is a VERY fast learner. There are a lot of ways in which children are vulnerable and need protection that simply do not apply to Jack at all. He is not a baby, physically or mentally.

Where Jack is vulnerable is in his sense of self and his identity. He is emotionally and spiritually vulnerable, and he is vulnerable to manipulation. From the first time Sam talks to him, he is asking Jack if he can re-open the rift, and Sam DOES want to use him. I don't blame Sam for that, it's a perfectly logical thing to want. Sam believes Mary might still be alive, and he wants to use Jack to go see, and hell, maybe as a weapon, too. Sam needs to believe that Jack can be good and useful to them, and he is not really honest with Jack at first. Dean is right about that.

Dean, though? Dean is completely, 100% honest with Jack in every interaction, no matter how ugly the truth. He tells Jack exactly what he thinks and feels. He has a very reasonable reaction to Jack as a still-unknown cosmic power, and Dean quite reasonably sees him as the reason Cas is dead. Dean is emotional and grieving, but he is honest. Later, as he comes to see Jack as something other than a threat, he is kind to Jack while still being honest. When he comes to love Jack, he loves him honestly. He never lies or manipulates Jack even one time until they lure him into the mal'ak box, and when they talk him into it, Dean can barely look at Jack and makes Sam do the talking, because he really just can't. Lie. To. Jack.

Jack emulates, loves and respects Dean. When Jack thinks Dean has to kill him, he understands and accepts it because he trusts Dean. I think Jack looks to Dean for an honest, clear-eyed assessment of his situation. Cas is blinded by love, Sam is more interested in utility, and Dean is being forced to sacrifice Jack, who has become his and Cas's son -- his family. If Dean can do it, Jack is willing to submit, and then DEAN CAN'T DO IT.

it makes no sense to me to apply real-world child/parent roles on them, to compare Dean with John, who was raising human children, or to think of Jack as an actual human child, and I don't blame Dean for any of it. Dean is so emotionally compromised by so many different ways and I think there is a widespread tendency to begrudge Dean his legitimate feelings when they aren't comfortable, and to apply reality-based roles to these characters who are not at all living normal lives. When it comes down to it, Dean STILL loves Jack (and Cas!) too much to kill Jack or to lie to him, even after Jack oopsie-daisy kills Mary in a moment of uncontrolled panic and has no soul and can't tell right from wrong, and can't even feel remorse. Jack is legitimately dangerous, and Dean is not wrong to try to contain that.

And, by the end of the story, when Dean is saying Jack is not family, not like Cas and Sam are, Dean has lost his compass, and we know that because he also deceives Amara, and tries to kill Sam. Dean is truly in error in those scenes, and doing the wrong things, and seriously, Dean is so good, so self-sacrificing, so full of love that I am able to forgive him a moment of error at the climax of his existential crisis. By that time, Jack is a complex character who is as heavy with grief and guilt as Dean is, and who feels the weight of the world, like Dean does, and who understands Dean.

Is Dean perfect? No. Is Jack a child? No.

I'm just going to say it: I think Dean was a good father to Jack, because what Jack needed more than anything else was honest information about who he was, what threat he posed, who loved him, and HOW to love, so that he could decide who he was and what he wants to be.

He got that from Dean.