#AND /agatha's/ trial - alice's sacrifice to save agatha

[aparticularbandit]

If Rio is Death and is after Billy for escaping his death.

If Rio cannot kill Agatha.

If they maintain the end of the initial Road story.

I think we might see an Agatha sacrifice for Billy.

Because she would be keeping him alive when she couldn't keep Nicholas alive.

Because dying might mean she could be with Rio.

Because finding a way to reverse her siphoning would mean that she can control it.

Because Rio cannot kill Agatha.

(Rio cannot kill; Rio takes what is already dead.)

Because if Agatha dies, Billy can probably bring her back.

If Billy dies, Agatha cannot bring him back.

[katerinadeannika]

Notes after watching the full Behind the Scenes of Agatha All Along posted on Nov 13th 2024:

There was no way they could have written an ending for Agatha that did not involve death.

I have been saying this to all the naysayers from the get-go, to all the people making posts about being done or fed up or angry about the ending, or how it makes no sense, or how they should have could have done something different and been fine story wise. The behind the scenes confirmed my point.

The main through line for the entire show was the theme of Death; of Agatha never being able to escape it. Where she both loves and hates death and Death, the concept and the woman. Where she's been running from Death for centuries, but Death came for her son and was always coming for her the second she slowed down.

Every completed trial meant someone would die. Billy created the road based off the rumors and witch lore. And the only rumors out in the witch world were that someone knew someone else's aunt/relative/friend who had undertaken the road and never returned. In reality, that was Agatha's doing. But to Billy, it meant that somehow, the Road took its toll on them. And when the coven traveled it, the Road exacted the same price that Billy expected it to. Death or near death at every trial.

The first trial killed Sharon. The second gave Alice her power back and then Billy almost died (and probably would have if Agatha hadn't pleaded with Rio on his behalf, if the coven hadn't worked together, and if Billy hadn't made the Road with his own powers. Some interesting combo of the all the above). The third trial killed Alice who was trying to save Agatha. And the fourth trial killed Lilia and the Salem Seven.

Jac said she intentionally wrote it where Death was a very real thing that everyone in the show had to come to terms with.

And for Jen Kale, her gift was already dead, and she was supposed to resurrect it and take her own power back. She escaped because after Agatha's trial, the fifth one, someone DID die.

And this time it was Agatha.

Agatha had avoided it every other time by either being saved, or having the rest of the coven as fodder for death.

But in the end, when she could have left once again, she must decide who has to pay the final price for her invention of the Road. The Road that she has used to kill and lure countless witches to their doom over the past few centuries.

She can save the boy she has come to love and mentor after the loss of her son. Or, she can leave once again. And so she makes the final moment of self sacrifice, and chooses the final victim of the Road: Herself

She has been running from Death for centuries.

For Agatha's story to have a thematic ending that wasn't cheap or manufactured, she had to stay true to that through-line. That's how writing works. You find your themes. You write about and explore them. And you have a final consequence that determines if it's a positive arc or a negative arc for your main character.

They chose for Agatha to have a positive arc. A moment of final growth. To end the show on her finally making the right decision, even at the cost of the life she's sustained through countless centuries and via countless deaths.

There was no way the show could have ended any other way.

PS: There is no excuse to hate on it. At all.

It doesn't meet any of the criteria for the 'Bury your gays' trope. It doesn't even end Agatha’s story. But it does provide expertly written, well thought out, thematically poignant endings for all the characters in a way that satisfies their personal journey—throughout the show and the centuries.

And I am so glad they made it, and that it ended how it did. I wouldn’t want it any other way. As a writer. As an editor. As a viewer. And as a lesbian.

Agatha All Along is a masterpiece in TV writing. And I can’t wait for more.

PSS: Watch the Behind the Scenes on youtube that Marvel just posted. It’s super good and includes all sorts of info to help with fic writing and just general understanding of the writing and show creation. Also lots of Kathryn Hahn and Aubrey Plaza in interviews!

TLDR: Quit complaining and griping about the ending. It was written beautifully. The reason you got so invested is because of all the heavy death elements throughout that made things mean something. Embrace it. Or find media where you were the target audience. Cause if you couldn’t handle something well written that ends like this, you weren’t the target audience. And that’s okay. But move on before you keep griping and causing issues with the community and the cast.

[child-of-the-danube]

MASSIVE AGATHA ALL ALONG SPOILERS SO SKIP IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE EPISODE

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Time to yap, my sisters in the craft 🔮🧙🏻‍♀️

Positives of the final two episodes:

1. Jen finally being free

2. Agatha showing she actually learned from her coven in her final battle with Rio - she used Alice's protection spell, Jen's moon water spell and listened to Lilia's advice about hitting the deck

3. The parallels of Agatha and her coven:

- She was in the same situation as Lorna. A mother who knew her child was doomed from the start and did everything in her power to protect them and keep them alive for as long as she could, only for it to be fruitless in the end. And despite it being fruitless, the children did feel the love and were aware of the sacrifice, and sometimes that is enough. Alice and Nicky's memory will forever live through the songs their mothers made for and with them. The memory of their love outlived both them and their children and will keep on living on for long after.

- She chose to give her life for someone she just met but clearly felt strongly for the same way Lilia did. A lifetime of running from Death. A lifetime of collecting knowlegde for it to appear useless. A lifetime of seeing Death everywhere, of being persued by her, of being lonely and heartbroken with grief. And then going out by embracing Death by your own will to give another a chance and do at least once what you failed to do for centuries - protect.

- Her and Billy making a story come to life out of love and grief for their family. She set the foundation and he made it come to realisation. Both took away from others but only one gets be exempt from the consequences and able to achieve what they were after from the start.

4. Agatha being the happiest she's ever been when Nicky was with her

5. The acceptance in her voice when she says "Sometimes...boys die"

6. The fact that the dandelion seed in Nicky's hair that she kept for centuries saved her in the final trial oh my god 😭 😭

7. Agatha's love for Nicky being so strong that a silly little song they made together became world known. "You...I made from scratch" AAAAAAAAAAAAA

8. She calls her power "my purple" cause Nicky called it so 💔💔

9. THE KISS

10. Showing that it was Agatha's desire to keep Nicky alive and later on when he died her grief turning her to addiction that caused her to become this famous witch killer. She was never purely evil. What she did was, and it is not an excuse, but still. The parallels between her and Wanda being ready to destroy entire worlds and lives just to get their children back... A mother's love can make whole valleys bloom but it can also make mountains crumble to dust and my heart is not ok

11. Agatha doing for Billy what she couldn't do for her own son. Giving him a chance to live

12. Ghost Agatha's first move being annoying her adoptive son lmao

13. The road's entrance becoming a memorial to Sharon, Alice and Lilia

14. Billy getting the wake up call that he is not so different from Agatha or Wanda. His grief created a literal death trap and consequently killed Sharon, Alice and Lilia, even if Agatha is telling him Alice was her doing and Lilia was by her own choice

15. Agatha finding her purpose as a mentor in death

Negatives:

1. We were cheated out of a proper Agatha and Rio backstory. How did they meet? How did they fall in love? What happened in the centuries between Nicky's death and entering the road? How often did Rio come to Agatha for Agatha to be so clear about the one thing she wants when she passes being not seeing Rio? She is Death's only exception, only love, only scar. WE DESERVED MORE!!! How did Agatha bag a literal god????

2. Once again, a story that started out and was marketed as a story of women ends up being just means to help a man's story build up. I mean, I should have expected that but still leaves a bitter taste. Wiccan is an interesting character but I feel cheated out of knowing more about Jen. I wanted her backstory before being bound. I wanted Agatha pre-Salem trial and post Nicky's death for more than a power draining sequence through the ages. I wanted Agatha and Rio developing this bond that held up for 300 years. I wanted the Salem Seven to be more than a 5 second threat. Billy will get his own show anyway, like come on.

3. In connection to that, I know this one is a very subjective sentiment and I understand completely but it still pisses me off to no end. The fact that these witches, these centuries old women, who all had being covenless, lonely and in dire situations with their powers in common, went on this death wish trip with someone they didn't like at all as a last resort and got what they were lacking, learned to care for eachother, got their powers back, and that Agatha had the possibility to finally have a family and people genuinely care for her, turned out to be practically worthless in the end cause they had like 5mins of it is making me go insane. Alice said it best: "This is it? I was finally able to do something with my life and this is all the time I get?". The only one, aside Jen, coming out alive and having time to bask in the glow of his new-found power AND have the chance to do something with it is a fucking teenage boy who already got the privilege of cheating Death and the privilege of his family members still be somewhere out in reach to search for. The finale said "your life, struggles and resolution were just means to get someone else ahead". Call me a misandrist, so be it, but I'm fucking tired. Is one story where women are the focus and have a happy ending so fucking much to ask for????

4. THE KISS cause at what cost??? I repeat, this was the fastest, literal, bury your gays move I've ever seen. We knew it couldn't possibly end well, but damn. However, kudos to Kathryn and Aubrey making it so hungry and desperate, but also soft and real and full of emotion.

5. Billy being a dick and wanting to send Agatha back to "Rio's toxic embrace" like he didn't just watch her give up her life for him and tell her that she's "not that bad". My boy, you are truly strange in your holier than thou attitude sometimes

[ennn]

Why did we get a post-death scene with Alice and not Lilia or Mrs Hart Sharon?

Thanks to @diving-llama for the ask

I think having that scene with Alice and Death makes a lot sense for episode 8 because it touches on the same overarching theme about death during the earth trial and after, which we see with Agatha and Nicky:

Sometimes people—boys, newborn babies, brave and kind people with so much to live for—just die.

It's not because they weren't loved enough, or that they, or the people they leave behind, deserved it. Bad things happen because things happen all the time ("120 bodies empty out every minute"). The universe doesn't care. People care. And it's people who decide whether the things that happen are good or bad.

And sometimes people with superpowers and big feelings fuck up the universe but that's another issue to get into.

Unlike Alice, Lilia because of all that happens in episode 7, has accepted her death ("I will fall"). She has the benefit of seeing it coming a bit in advance compared to most other people, but it's still her choice to stay and sacrifice herself to stop the Salem Seven. It's fate but also her agency at the same time.

Beyond that, I think part of Lilia's story in episode 7 is about her coming to terms with her past and how her power cannot save everyone from death. Lilia's gift and curse is knowledge: oftentimes she has to simply watch and make the best of what precious time remains—and in her case, use her time to save her coven.

It is important, I think, that Lilia has her brief conversations with her mentor, who reminds her of what she's really searching for: purpose, identity, community, meaning.

In the end, Lilia's story feels complete because she makes her choice knowing her end, seeing her power and her value. For Alice, whose death comes as a shock, it makes sense to give her story a bit of closure. Death reminds her (and the viewer) that there can be meaning to be had, if you want to look for it: "You're a protection witch, you died protecting someone."

Life and death and loss and pain, things happen. Things will happen. Whether they're good or bad things is up for people to decide.

From a Doylist perspective, we know the show has limited time and budget so it makes sense to prioritise scenes that have the most significance to the main story and character(s). As a more secondary character, it's unsurprising Sharon Davis doesn't get a post-death scene.

I think Lilia's story and Alice's scene help to show the two broad responses to death, of readiness and reluctance, and Sharon's could have fallen under either. We don't know enough about Sharon, to know whether she would have accepted her fate or not.

It's also interesting to consider that they did to an extent (i.e. as much as budget allowed) show the idea of how Death appears differently to different people. Because the Death that Alice meets is different from other versions: Lilia sees her full skeletal form in episode 3, and we see a much kinder and softer Death guiding Nicky when we dies.

[good-day-batey]

Absolutely going crazy about how Agatha All Along is about relationships with mothers (and honestly family, but I like it being mothers, can you tell I have mommy issues?).

With the Salem Seven, are the children of the ones that trialled and wanted to execute Agatha. Having grown resentful and vengeful of what Agatha did to their mothers, they have come after her, in her weakest she has been. Perhaps just like how their mothers and Evanora did to her daughter during her trial.

With Lorna Wu doing everything she can to protect Alice with this generational curse between women--daughters of her clan. Going on tours and tours to get her song-her spell to be heard because just as long as it is remembered, Alice will be protected. Which succeeded, and Alice died with her own terms in protecting her Coven.

With Agatha first and foremost being hated and seen as evil by her mother, and then being seen/rumored as this wicked witch (get it cause she's dressed up as the wicked witch of the east in ep 7 ha) who gave up her son for the book of the dammed, when in reality that can't be the case with all of the hints we've seen with her and Nicholas. And then seeing this boy-- this Teen who just broke into her house, broke her out of the Scarlet Witch spell, got to know him more and see him as a child to be protected once more, unlike perhaps do what she couldn't do with her own son. That she will to this kid who may have been the son of the woman who trapped her for 3 years, and basically "deceived" her all throughout the journey, but is nonetheless proud. Proud in seeing him take the opportunity to survive and grow up when he was supposed to die, as Billy Maximoff and even as William Kaplan

With Rio, who loves and is just as much of a mother to Nicholas, but is obligated to her job that she cannot abandon, making her do something that she doesn't want to someone she loves (both to Nicky and Agatha).

And to Billy, as a Maximoff and as a Kaplan. With Wanda, creating him and Tommy out of nothing but her powers and a desire for love and family, to her having to take everything she wants down and to her going through the multiverse to find her children only to find out that the twins of that universe already have a mother that is loving and isn't blindsided by the grief and the control of the darkhold that won't accept albit scared with what has she became . Too blinded by the grief and corruption, she didn't notice that her love presevered and saved the body this dying child. And with Rebecca Kaplan, despite basically grieving the death of her son because he can't see her boy in him anymore because of the amnesia (or literally with William dying and Billy taking over), she hasn't given up on this child. Having kept him safe in whichever way she can and in the process making Billy see her as her mother, giving the Kaplans more time with him rather than dying in William's bar mitzvah.

And lastly, with Lilia (I'll always love you), having the power and knowledge, she has basically been the mother of the coven. Always trying to save the people from the demise she has no control of seeing and failing to do, such as the curse of seeing divination just like in her first coven. She has accepted her fate of being a witch by having her final act saving her current coven, sacrificing herself, and loving to do so in the process. Such as a mother ready to sacrifice herself for those they love.

I have so much more yapping especially with Lilia and ep 7 (and Jen but we don't have her backstory yet so) but its honest to God 1:33 am in my place and i need to sleep 😴😴

[marsischilling]

OK HOT TAKE TIME

I don’t think that Billy was responsible for anyone’s deaths. He may have brought the vessel, but there were reasons as to why each person was there that was fulfilled on the road.

Sharon

Sharon experienced pain at the hands of Wanda, as well as the cards life had thrown her as well. She’s a widower, she clearly is scarred from the hex, she’s obviously unhappy with where she’s at, bc she kept saying “it’s been so long since I’ve been to a party!” Or “I’ve had a day” or the like. Her story had functionally ended, narratively of course, and while the best case scenario was to send her home, she had learned everything that she could.

Alice

Alice spent her entire life afraid of the curse, angry at her mother and shrouded in grief. Her death, in contrast, was a defensive move instead liof an offensive one like she’s used to (she’s an ex cop after all). She, as a protection witch, had fulfilled her duty to protect her coven, and had been released from a curse that had been placed upon her bloodline. As she said herself, she wasn’t ready, but she had no other narrative purpose other than a mentor which was filled. She was however my favorite character 🫶🫶🫶

Lillia

Lillia lived a life stuck in time, out of order, no way to prevent anything or have anyone take her seriously. She not only most likely knew the road was illusion, she knew that there was no prize. Her prize was being able to fill in the gaps, and then sacrifice herself to save the others. She knew fully well what would happen and she did it anyways.

All in all, everyone (except Agatha) left with a prize or a fulfillment of some sort. Billy is not at fault for all of their deaths. Maybe only Mrs. Davis’s if we’re being honest, but not for lack of trying to help against the trial. He had no idea the road was his Hex, so to look at his actions like he was aware the whole time isn’t truthful nor fair

[americana-gothic]

I had to admit the first half of the first episode was too long and drawn out for me. Though by the third episode I was already committed. The theme was pretty evident. Billy and Agatha wanted to go down the Witches Road and gathered a coven of Down and Out witches, who happened to be Covenless.

Probably because the last ones didn't work out. I'm guessing that Jen will have to make a sacrifice next. Though will she die like Lilia and Alice? I was really bummed out that Alice died. Considering she wasn't that old. If she was a child in the 70's haunted by her family's curse. Then manages to break her family's curse just to die in the next episode. :( That's messed up shit, didn't even get to enjoy her witchy freedom without her family curse.

Lilia got to live a long life. However, due to her inability to control her powers, and failed attempts to save people from Death, locked herself away from most of the world, probably for a very long time. Only to get a grip one last time and die.

So, Agatha didn't die in her trial. I don't know why I feel like the first trial was actually Mrs. Hart's trial, which she died...in her dream kitchen. Who knows maybe it was Jen's trial and she survived. I don't know, I just want a happy ending for these ladies. If Disney was smart, making Agatha a ( neutral ) character would be ideal. It leaves the audience guessing and it doesn't disappoint, when she does something evil or good. LOL.

Also, I'm actually impressed that some of their occult info is accurate.