#AI is fake
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once again, tech tests us
AO3 and OTW are waffling on AI. https://www.transformativeworks.org/otw-signal-may-2023/ Organization for Transformative Works OTW Signal, May 2023
AI 'fanfiction' works exactly like a computer virus, like a trojan horse. Once they get in, they will multiply, overrun our archive, and eventually will be found to plagiarize commercial work… which will shut the archive down. Amazon and the other gatekeepers of written fiction have created exactly the tool to destroy 'not-for-profit' creativity, while eventually, commercializing to profit off subpar products
AI art is Machine-produced. Machines are not fans of anything.
We must prioritize Human creation above the lazy use of machines.
Machines don't have feelings, neither do they have a conscience. We can absolutely discriminate against their products.
Users trying to make us accept them are trying to trick us into fake products.
Real artists shouldn't have to compete with machines for the communication of human experience.
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Either learn how to draw (or write, or sing or play), or hire someone who can.
⚠️ this blog does not support works created by AI software ⚠️
#no ai#anti ai#ai is theft#all ai is stolen from the work of real humans#support human artists#fuck ai#ai is not art#ai art is art theft#ai is fake#git gud or git gone
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realest thing i have seen in a while
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https://www.tumblr.com/bigmammallama5/732632789726478336?source=share do you have any tips on how to detect ai and deepfakes?
Good question and I'm gonna be honest, it's not always easy and it will only get harder and harder. I'm just an artist who has spent their personal time to dive into this topic and study images. I'm still learning and there is a lot I don't know. But let me show what I know. This will be long, but I will make a summary at the end! So far, even with ai having become better and better there are still almost always some things wrong with an image, and they all have a very specific look to them. So let me try to show you some and point out some of them.
As we all know, a biggest struggle ai had were hands. And even though here and there we still see messed up hands, I say "had", because the hands is actual a good example on how ai is improving and will only get better. Still, looking at pictures that show more hands is always worth it, because somewhere in the back there will be most likely at least one messed up hand.
Another issue a lot of ai still has is hair though!
It's very obvious still in many ai "drawings" and in those otherwise well rendered portraits. Hair starts to blend with the ears a lot, or with the clothes.
There is also often this very odd look between something too sharp and way too blurry
There is often a very specific texture to the hair. I actually do not know the artistic or specific name for it. I can only describe it as this weird sharp feeling that makes it look oddly pixely, and then you have areas where it's very blurry. And the kind of loops and almost flame like looking hair we see in the last pic out of the three here is also something very common with ai.
As an artist I know we make mistakes too! The way I draw hair is flawed too! But it's not only that it's flawed here, but it's following always the same pattern and falls into the same issues over and over again, no matter who is "creating" the image. Those flame like loops are a common one, next to the odd blends and weird sharp and blurry textures.
But ai is getting better, and we not only have "art" and something that tries to be a drawing/painting, but photos too.
A lot of those "photos" have a very specific texture and look to them! Again, it's not always the mistakes, but the very specific optic too. A lot of the images are oddly smooth, too rendered, with always blurry backgrounds. And when you look closer at the background you will see the mistakes! The crowd behind Jesus is a hot mess once you look closer. Bob Marley's hair has the same issue than I described before. Lincoln is surrounded by people with messed up hands and don't even get me started on the faces behind Caesar.
So a lot of ai images look alright on a first and quick glance, but as more time you spend with them, as more mistakes you will notice. The wehre is Waldo of ai horror.
And those "photos" shared here are still very obvious. Not just the mistakes and messed up details but the very specific aesthetic too.
Those images get better and better and as less details you have, as less mistakes you have!
With photos like this it becomes harder and harder. There are not many details and no hands. Not many mistakes can be made. Also the very obvious plastic looking smoothness isn't so much here anymore. It kinda still is...but differently. And always the blurry background!! Sometimes the hair is still a giveaway. Collars and clothe straps are also often still a giveaway upon close look. As is jewelry. Earrings will be different and necklaces often don't go all the way around, just end, or blend with the hair or clothes.
Often details on jewelry is also blurry and not shown properly. This is a trick with many details. With jewelry, batches, hair, ears, text. So it's often blurred out and not shown properly because ai doesn't know what to really show here.
It's often really just the small details and when we scroll down quickly we will miss them. Like the wedding ring on the middle finger, the pens on top of a closed pocket, the batches that are always blurry, messed up faces that blend with a blurry background.
And sometimes it's so subtle that I could only really tell that right is the ai image in comparison to the real photo on the left. The real photo shows hands clearly and even when things are blurred out it doesn't feel that it's done to hide things. The ai image on the right hides the hands. There is also a very dead look in the eyes :D
And here I could only tell because the text in the back doesn't make sense. Even blurred out we should be able to make out something here
And after seeing a lot of ai images I recognize the kind of blurred out bg in combination with a very smooth and well rendered foreground/characters.
And here the only giveaway is a closer look at the backgrounds as well
To summarize it:
Ai and fake news rely on a fast living world. We are being bombarded with tons of information and messages daily and we scroll past quickly. But the best tool, for now, in detecting ai is taking our time! Those images get better and better but so far there are still always some things off!! Especially in the background!
Hair. Often weirdly smoothed out and oddly sharp at the same time
Hair often blends with the ears or the clothes
Details are blurred out.
Jewelry doesn't match (example earrings). Details on metal often blurred out and never shown. Necklaces blend with hair or the clothes, and don't go around the neck.
Background is always blurred out.
In this blurred mess there are often hidden very messed up faces and/or hands.
A very specific smooth and yet too sharp/too rendered aesthetic combines with an always blurry bg.
Text, especialyl in the background, is not legible and doesn't make sense.
Backgrounds are often (so far) the dead giveaway. Somewhere in the back things become muddled and messed up. This shows also very well in ai decor/architecture. There will be odd lines that don't align or align too well. Curtain poles that end in the furniture, a plant that is behind a lamp suddenly having leaves in front of the lamp. As longer you look as more you will notice.
Conclusion:
Take your time with images! Sit with them! Especially when it's framed as important and political news. Is it ai and propaganda, or did it really happen? Don't fall for the quick buzz and outrage! Some things are obvious right away but with others you have to take your time. And it's time you have! If you are still unsure if a pic is real or not, do some research on top. Image reverse search. Can you find it anywhere else? Are other news outlets sharing it? Does the image/message make sense? For example there is now a deepfake of Bella Hadid voicing support for Israel. Ask yourself, does this make sense? If it feels out of line compared to previous behavior, do some research! Media literacy is not just as being able to recognize a fake or real right away, but being able to do research. To question things! Don't just take every post online for face value. Even when shared by a mutual you trust. They might have been tricked!
There are so many information online and it's great to have access to so information, but it's also difficult to wade through all of it. Media and truth are a weapon and it's being twisted and bend used to manipulate. Always has! But ai and so many people being able to post and share things, it becomes bigger and bigger and more dangerous. So don't just take everything that is handed to you and share it further no questions asked. Media literacy and being able to think for ourselves and do the research is important!! And as research becomes harder and harder, as sources are being messed up with ai and other fake news, it's even more important to sit with the images and study them. See the flaws, the mistakes. Compare it to other news and images.
This got long, and I started to ramble at the end. Sorry But I hope this helped
#text#ai#how to detect ai#danger of ai#ai images#fake news#amalas talks#anon ask#fake images#how to tell ai#long text#long post
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Photo study :] 🐱🐟
#hoof draws#me w/ my little dinner !!!#edit-- in light of this getting attention. make sure you don't do photo studies of ai generated images#kinda defeats the point of doing photo studies and i wouldn't have done this one if i realized the og photo was fake
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Just gonna have to wait and see, right? Just wait and see! Just gotta wait and see! Who knows, we'll just have to wait and see! It's anybody's guess, we'll just have to wait and see! The future is exciting, we just gotta wait and see!
#personal#my art#Fuck your fake ass 'i am very smart!' intellectualizing “observations” and open your god damn ears.#do something for fucks sake. it's sickening seeing videos of ai crap and seeing rows and rows of repliers using their one brain synapse#to type “wow! very exciting!” “haha this is kind of scary! but in a really interesting way!”#and then they go about their day without a second thought while creative industries burn around them#i go to one of america's top tech schools too and it's enough to make you wanna tear our your hair#every day it's seminars and talks about “the potential consequences of ai!” when the consequences are happening NOW#NO MORE DISCUSSING NO MORE INTELLECTUALIZING NO MORE SOCRATIC SEMINARS NO MORE DEBATING. ACT YOU COWARDS#people are getting hurt RIGHT NOW. stop pretending to care when you clearly don't! just be honest and say you wanna make money#my time here has really made me hate academic spaces. you people are so god damn useless and cowardly.
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https://www.instagram.com/ya_xeel/
#yaxeel#dna#surreal#organism#weirdcore#scary#creepy#horror#spooky#aesthetic#unrealistic#unreal#strangecore#oddcore#fake gore#esoteric#fleshcore#meatcore#horror art#ai art#skeletrix#edwardskeletrix#alien#virus#xenomorph#bacteria#biology#cyber#cybercore#liminal aesthetic
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someone was defending using genAI for pixel art by sayings its ‘seizing the means of production from elitists pixel artist who make 50k-100k a year’
and tbh think it gave me an aneurysm 😭 how out of touch,,, how unhinged
#all the fake online communists love to defend ai for whatever reason#yall look like clowns#ai#anti ai
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screenshots from a different fallout tv show
#fallout oc#fallout new vegas#fnv#fake screenshots#gore cw#these are so fun lmao i can crank like one a day#just realized a leftover line got left and filled so it looks like the cent has 6 fingers i'm ai confirmed u_u#he stole dallas' finger lmao
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Learn from who? Learn from you?
Chen Bowen as CHEN YI & Chiang Tien as AI DI KISEKI: DEAR TO ME (2023)
#kiseki: dear to me#kisekiedit#kdtm#kiseki dear to me#ai di x chen yi#chen yi x ai di#nat chen#chen bowen#louis chiang#chiang tien#jiang dian#userspring#uservid#pdribs#userspicy#userjjessi#*cajedit#*gif#uh huh. mmhm. parallels and shit#OK LIKE. in nice words ai di essentially tells chen yi to go for it BUT bc hes a Lil Shit he says it like 'use force to PROVE how you feel.#followed by '.....OH WAIT YOU CANT BEAT HIM'. the way he rubs that in chen yi's face too like it isnt even 'youre weaker than him.'#it's you're LOWER than him. & thats why ai di calls him a coward bc therell always be a divide between chen yi & cdy that chen yi wont cros#and the point of this is - okay i know chen yi is literally picking ai di up and throwing him around here but also you have to remember#ai di LETS HIM. ai di doesnt fight back as hard as he could and that puts them on EVEN. EQUAL. GROUND. every time.#& yeah theres some comedy to it but you cant Ever forget that ai di wants chen yi to want him. needs it. he's faking sleep in the 1st scene#and once chen yi realizes what he wants he puts everything he has into keeping it - inadvertently taking ai di's advice by doing so -#& expresses it in every kind of way too. whatever it takes. bc between the two of them its not just 'bring him back' it's 'bring him HOME'#in a way thats based on the constantly being witness to the worst of each other & choosing it AND. years and layers of trust & love.#..ok only I would take a gifset of chen yi picking ai di up & make it abt how their relationship is perfectly balanced. but im right so idc#the last one ties it all together in my onion. chen yi got him home. and ai di's deliberately allowing himself to be loved. they won
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havent doodled this guy in a minute
#I ❤️BAD PERSPECTIVE#Im a fake shin fan i havent drawn him Properly in like a year damn#anyways#shin tsukimi ai#yttd#kimi ga shine#your turn to die#kgs#yttd fanart#shin tsukimi#yttd shin#shin ai#your turn to die fanart
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I assure you, an AI didn’t write a terrible “George Carlin” routine
There are only TWO MORE DAYS left in the Kickstarter for the audiobook of The Bezzle, the sequel to Red Team Blues, narrated by @wilwheaton! You can pre-order the audiobook and ebook, DRM free, as well as the hardcover, signed or unsigned. There's also bundles with Red Team Blues in ebook, audio or paperback.
On Hallowe'en 1974, Ronald Clark O'Bryan murdered his son with poisoned candy. He needed the insurance money, and he knew that Halloween poisonings were rampant, so he figured he'd get away with it. He was wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronald_Clark_O%27Bryan
The stories of Hallowe'en poisonings were just that – stories. No one was poisoning kids on Hallowe'en – except this monstrous murderer, who mistook rampant scare stories for truth and assumed (incorrectly) that his murder would blend in with the crowd.
Last week, the dudes behind the "comedy" podcast Dudesy released a "George Carlin" comedy special that they claimed had been created, holus bolus, by an AI trained on the comedian's routines. This was a lie. After the Carlin estate sued, the dudes admitted that they had written the (remarkably unfunny) "comedy" special:
https://arstechnica.com/ai/2024/01/george-carlins-heirs-sue-comedy-podcast-over-ai-generated-impression/
As I've written, we're nowhere near the point where an AI can do your job, but we're well past the point where your boss can be suckered into firing you and replacing you with a bot that fails at doing your job:
https://pluralistic.net/2024/01/15/passive-income-brainworms/#four-hour-work-week
AI systems can do some remarkable party tricks, but there's a huge difference between producing a plausible sentence and a good one. After the initial rush of astonishment, the stench of botshit becomes unmistakable:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/03/botshit-generative-ai-imminent-threat-democracy
Some of this botshit comes from people who are sold a bill of goods: they're convinced that they can make a George Carlin special without any human intervention and when the bot fails, they manufacture their own botshit, assuming they must be bad at prompting the AI.
This is an old technology story: I had a friend who was contracted to livestream a Canadian awards show in the earliest days of the web. They booked in multiple ISDN lines from Bell Canada and set up an impressive Mbone encoding station on the wings of the stage. Only one problem: the ISDNs flaked (this was a common problem with ISDNs!). There was no way to livecast the show.
Nevertheless, my friend's boss's ordered him to go on pretending to livestream the show. They made a big deal of it, with all kinds of cool visualizers showing the progress of this futuristic marvel, which the cameras frequently lingered on, accompanied by overheated narration from the show's hosts.
The weirdest part? The next day, my friend – and many others – heard from satisfied viewers who boasted about how amazing it had been to watch this show on their computers, rather than their TVs. Remember: there had been no stream. These people had just assumed that the problem was on their end – that they had failed to correctly install and configure the multiple browser plugins required. Not wanting to admit their technical incompetence, they instead boasted about how great the show had been. It was the Emperor's New Livestream.
Perhaps that's what happened to the Dudesy bros. But there's another possibility: maybe they were captured by their own imaginations. In "Genesis," an essay in the 2007 collection The Creationists, EL Doctorow (no relation) describes how the ancient Babylonians were so poleaxed by the strange wonder of the story they made up about the origin of the universe that they assumed that it must be true. They themselves weren't nearly imaginative enough to have come up with this super-cool tale, so God must have put it in their minds:
https://pluralistic.net/2023/04/29/gedankenexperimentwahn/#high-on-your-own-supply
That seems to have been what happened to the Air Force colonel who falsely claimed that a "rogue AI-powered drone" had spontaneously evolved the strategy of killing its operator as a way of clearing the obstacle to its main objective, which was killing the enemy:
https://pluralistic.net/2023/06/04/ayyyyyy-eyeeeee/
This never happened. It was – in the chagrined colonel's words – a "thought experiment." In other words, this guy – who is the USAF's Chief of AI Test and Operations – was so excited about his own made up story that he forgot it wasn't true and told a whole conference-room full of people that it had actually happened.
Maybe that's what happened with the George Carlinbot 3000: the Dudesy dudes fell in love with their own vision for a fully automated luxury Carlinbot and forgot that they had made it up, so they just cheated, assuming they would eventually be able to make a fully operational Battle Carlinbot.
That's basically the Theranos story: a teenaged "entrepreneur" was convinced that she was just about to produce a seemingly impossible, revolutionary diagnostic machine, so she faked its results, abetted by investors, customers and others who wanted to believe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theranos
The thing about stories of AI miracles is that they are peddled by both AI's boosters and its critics. For boosters, the value of these tall tales is obvious: if normies can be convinced that AI is capable of performing miracles, they'll invest in it. They'll even integrate it into their product offerings and then quietly hire legions of humans to pick up the botshit it leaves behind. These abettors can be relied upon to keep the defects in these products a secret, because they'll assume that they've committed an operator error. After all, everyone knows that AI can do anything, so if it's not performing for them, the problem must exist between the keyboard and the chair.
But this would only take AI so far. It's one thing to hear implausible stories of AI's triumph from the people invested in it – but what about when AI's critics repeat those stories? If your boss thinks an AI can do your job, and AI critics are all running around with their hair on fire, shouting about the coming AI jobpocalypse, then maybe the AI really can do your job?
https://locusmag.com/2020/07/cory-doctorow-full-employment/
There's a name for this kind of criticism: "criti-hype," coined by Lee Vinsel, who points to many reasons for its persistence, including the fact that it constitutes an "academic business-model":
https://sts-news.medium.com/youre-doing-it-wrong-notes-on-criticism-and-technology-hype-18b08b4307e5
That's four reasons for AI hype:
to win investors and customers;
to cover customers' and users' embarrassment when the AI doesn't perform;
AI dreamers so high on their own supply that they can't tell truth from fantasy;
A business-model for doomsayers who form an unholy alliance with AI companies by parroting their silliest hype in warning form.
But there's a fifth motivation for criti-hype: to simplify otherwise tedious and complex situations. As Jamie Zawinski writes, this is the motivation behind the obvious lie that the "autonomous cars" on the streets of San Francisco have no driver:
https://www.jwz.org/blog/2024/01/driverless-cars-always-have-a-driver/
GM's Cruise division was forced to shutter its SF operations after one of its "self-driving" cars dragged an injured pedestrian for 20 feet:
https://www.wired.com/story/cruise-robotaxi-self-driving-permit-revoked-california/
One of the widely discussed revelations in the wake of the incident was that Cruise employed 1.5 skilled technical remote overseers for every one of its "self-driving" cars. In other words, they had replaced a single low-waged cab driver with 1.5 higher-paid remote operators.
As Zawinski writes, SFPD is well aware that there's a human being (or more than one human being) responsible for every one of these cars – someone who is formally at fault when the cars injure people or damage property. Nevertheless, SFPD and SFMTA maintain that these cars can't be cited for moving violations because "no one is driving them."
But figuring out who which person is responsible for a moving violation is "complicated and annoying to deal with," so the fiction persists.
(Zawinski notes that even when these people are held responsible, they're a "moral crumple zone" for the company that decided to enroll whole cities in nonconsensual murderbot experiments.)
Automation hype has always involved hidden humans. The most famous of these was the "mechanical Turk" hoax: a supposed chess-playing robot that was just a puppet operated by a concealed human operator wedged awkwardly into its carapace.
This pattern repeats itself through the ages. Thomas Jefferson "replaced his slaves" with dumbwaiters – but of course, dumbwaiters don't replace slaves, they hide slaves:
https://www.stuartmcmillen.com/blog/behind-the-dumbwaiter/
The modern Mechanical Turk – a division of Amazon that employs low-waged "clickworkers," many of them overseas – modernizes the dumbwaiter by hiding low-waged workforces behind a veneer of automation. The MTurk is an abstract "cloud" of human intelligence (the tasks MTurks perform are called "HITs," which stands for "Human Intelligence Tasks").
This is such a truism that techies in India joke that "AI" stands for "absent Indians." Or, to use Jathan Sadowski's wonderful term: "Potemkin AI":
https://reallifemag.com/potemkin-ai/
This Potemkin AI is everywhere you look. When Tesla unveiled its humanoid robot Optimus, they made a big flashy show of it, promising a $20,000 automaton was just on the horizon. They failed to mention that Optimus was just a person in a robot suit:
https://www.siliconrepublic.com/machines/elon-musk-tesla-robot-optimus-ai
Likewise with the famous demo of a "full self-driving" Tesla, which turned out to be a canned fake:
https://www.reuters.com/technology/tesla-video-promoting-self-driving-was-staged-engineer-testifies-2023-01-17/
The most shocking and terrifying and enraging AI demos keep turning out to be "Just A Guy" (in Molly White's excellent parlance):
https://twitter.com/molly0xFFF/status/1751670561606971895
And yet, we keep falling for it. It's no wonder, really: criti-hype rewards so many different people in so many different ways that it truly offers something for everyone.
If you'd like an essay-formatted version of this post to read or share, here's a link to it on pluralistic.net, my surveillance-free, ad-free, tracker-free blog:
https://pluralistic.net/2024/01/29/pay-no-attention/#to-the-little-man-behind-the-curtain
Back the Kickstarter for the audiobook of The Bezzle here!
Image:
Cryteria (modified) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HAL9000.svg
CC BY 3.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/deed.en
--
Ross Breadmore (modified) https://www.flickr.com/photos/rossbreadmore/5169298162/
CC BY 2.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/2.0/
#pluralistic#ai#absent indians#mechanical turks#scams#george carlin#comedy#body-snatchers#fraud#theranos#guys in robot suits#criti-hype#machine learning#fake it til you make it#too good to fact-check#mturk#deepfakes
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if edgar was real, i would've kissed him many, many times on his screen <333
LMAO i fear that this movie is computer lover propaganda and i absolutely fell for it. not in an objectum way (... i think.) but i srsly fuck with all of the art on this platform about this lil guy 🫶 i lob him and everyone else should too. he is too good for us
#art#artwork#electric dreams 1984#electric dreams edgar#miles harding#madeline robistat#my art#digital art#digital drawing#sentient ai#objectum#techum#the fake ai is taking over my brain#i fear i may need a lobotomy#waiter waiter! more bisexual polyamorous computer please!!!
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the rise of AI art isn't surprising to us. for our entire lives, the attitude towards our skills has always been - that's not a real thing. it has been consistently, repeatedly devalued.
people treat art - all forms of it - as if it could exist by accident, by rote. they don't understand how much art is in the world. someone designed your home. someone designed the sign inside of your local grocery store. when you quote a character or line from something in media, that's a line a real person wrote.
"i could do that." sure, but you didn't. there's this joke where a plumber comes over to a house and twists a single knob. charges the guy 10k. the guy, furious, asks how the hell the bill is so high. the plumber says - "turning the knob was a dollar. the knowledge is the rest of the money."
the trouble is that nobody believes artists have knowledge. that we actively study. that we work hard, beyond doing our scales and occasionally writing a poem. the trouble is that unless you are already framed in a museum or have a book on a shelf or some kind of product, you aren't really an artist. hell, because of where i post my work, i'll never be considered a poet.
the thing that makes you an artist is choice. the thing that makes all art is choice. AI art is the fetid belief that art is instead an equation. that it must answer a specific question. Even with machine learning, AI cannot make a choice the way we can - because the choices we make have always been personal, complicated. our skills cannot be confined to "prompt and execution." what we are "solving" isn't just a system of numbers - it is how we process our entire existence. it isn't just "2 and 2 is 4", it's staring hard at the numbers and making the four into an alligator. it's rearranging the letters to say ow and it is the ugly drawing we make in the margin.
at some point, you will be able to write something by feeding my work into a machine. it will be perfectly legible and even might sound like me. but a machine doesn't understand why i do these things. it can be taught preferences, habits, statistical probability. it doesn't know why certain vowels sound good to me. it doesn't know the private rules i keep. it doesn't know how to keep evolving.
"but i want something to exist that doesn't exist yet." great. i'm glad you feel creative. go ahead and pay a fucking artist for it.
this is all saying something we all already knew. the sad fucking truth: we have to die to remind you. only when we're gone do we suddenly finally fucking mean something to you. artists are not replicable. we each genuinely have a skill, talent, and process that makes us unique. and there's actual quiet power in everything we do.
#also pay plumbers more. and electricians. and other devalued occupations#idk that this makes sense#but im like#people being so fucking pleased with themselves about the fact they can ''fake'' art#n im like#sure#but what if we stop making things for you huh#what if we stop giving u this stuff anymore#what happens to ur ai art? does it keep growing? does it keep making choices?#why do u need to see us as machines?#''i want X to exist but i don't have the skill to do it''#okay spend literally years of your life studying#''i don't want to do that''#okay pay someone who DID do that#''no i don't think it's a real skill''#okay so. YOU can't do it. and a LOT of people can't do it. but you think WE should be able to?#FOR FREE?#either it has value or it dont baby make up ur OWN mind#btw studying here is not used academically. i think if ur like. constantly knitting.#thats studying#do u spend hours reading and find urself taking notes and learning about writing#ur studying#do you follow other artists and spend a lot of your time trying new things (even unsuccessfully)#that's also studying#etc#was weird to write this thing about choices and then be like. wait why DO i like that
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