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normal-thoughts-official · 4 years

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Thoughts on Maryse actually earning a redemption? I liked her character post redemption but the whole arc felt rushed, unearned, and too easy. Especially with her victims (both her children and downworlders like Magnus) forgiving her so easily like she didn't do anything that bad...

oh mood. i actually have lowkey conflicted feelings on the whole maryse thing because like, on the one hand, they didn't do the thing i hate the most with this kind of "arc" - having the character b like "sorry that i was an asshole" and then continue to be an asshole but not on purpose this time and so it's fine now. on the other hand, they did the opposite - maryse did actually change and become a non-abusive person, but it didn't fucking make sense and she basically never bothered to acknowledge that she was a uhhhh terrible fucking person

there's also lowkey projection feelings that make me a little fond of maryse, like, damn, i wish my mom just decided one day that transphobia isn't sexy and completely changed overnight. u know? lmao

but anyway yeah i do have thoughts on a maryse redemption arc that doesn't suck ass. especially because i think there are elements that could make a cohesive story if the show actually, like, bothered with them. i'll warn u that i'll mostly ignore the cheating plotline because 1- it has kinda yikes vibes like "oh she's suffered now so we have to forgive her", and 2- i don't really care about cheating plotlines tbh. like rationally i can understand that it's essentially betrayal of an agreement, but emotionally, i simply don't understand why anyone would give a fuck lol i just can't connect emotionally with it in any way so it feels very abstract and forced for me to write about

so i think the starting point for her redemption would be her being deruned. so i’m gonna start from there, and just assume that everything that went down before the announcement of her deruning was the same

i say the deruning because like.... her entire life, this was her absolute top priority. being a shadowhunter. being a part of that society. upholding these values. being essentially shadowhunter royalty. and now, she's lost that. and she's forced to look back at everything that she did without the looming threat of her losing what she's been working so hard for (since she already did) and it suddenly feels way clearer

not that like oh she never realized how shitty she was! she fucking knew how shitty she was. there's no way she didn't. she manipulated her children, she purposefully humiliated them and withheld affection, she hurt them, she participated in genocide, she killed people, and she did it with the intent of doing all those things. but i think - especially with the part about that her children - that the way she looked at this was always distorted by the fact that the clave/the lightwood name/her position of power and prestige took precedence. also, the constant threat that she would lose that meant that she could justify it to herself saying that it was what she had to do. now, she can no longer do that, because it's already happened. and guess what? life went on now that she's deruned. so she's forced to look at everything that she did for her position as a shadowhunter from a distance this time, because her goals are unattainable now, and that means she can look at it more rationally, especially since she ran out of excuses. and here's the picture: none of it was worth it

and i'm talking about her children specifically. the literal fascism shit is more complicated since like, she is a radical racist and i don't think she would see a problem with that, tbh. she has no reason to care about that, yet

so okay, she's looking back and she realizes not only that her excuses for her behavior were made of paper, but also that her priorities were all fucked up, because now that she's deruned, it isn't that in itself that hurts her the most. it's the fact that she's alone

and again, i don't mean that like, boo hoo, poor her. that was the consequence of her own actions and honestly good for all the people in her life that they didn't feel obligated to give her emotional support when she was out there ruining their lives

what i do mean is that this is what moves her to want to change and mend things, if anything, because she wants comfort

and initially she would be super fucking selfish and shitty about it, because like..... obviously, maryse was selfish. she might have said "lightwood name" this and that, but let's be real here, she wasn't even born a lightwood to care all that much about that. it was about her, her power, her prestige. if overnight the lightwood name stopped being a symbol of status she would drop it like a hot potato, she held it close to her chest because it meant ascension for her personally. she manipulated her children and drew away her friends and supported genocide for herself, not out of some obligation with the concept of lightwoodship or whatever

she would try to "mend" her relationship with her children for herself, and it would show. robert would probably drop her like a hot potato too after the deruning, lbr, and i don't think she cared all that much about him anyway, so i'll focus on izzy, alec, and jace. jace is kind of weird since she was never shown to abuse him, but she also was willing to throw him on the trash when she found out he was valentine's kid, so. but overall i think he would be the one to mend his relationship with her more easily, but also - jace is just as selfish as her and even more self centered, so she wouldn't get a lot of support/satisfaction out of that relationship

so she tries to make things better with alec and izzy and they're both like... lol. especially alec because as we've seen he had no qualms about being completely ruthless with maryse once he broke out of her claws (good for him!) and while izzy had this whole "i don't care about maryse" facade.... she did, honestly. like she was visibly hurt by maryse not hugging her despite that being expected, and maryse's presence there in itself was enough for her body language to completely change. when izzy wanted to prove that she could be mature, she emulated maryse's style. so i think, especially since izzy was obviously the fuckup kid, that a part of her is kind of desperate to get any sort of approval or affection from maryse

but that doesn’t mean that she’s going to humiliate herself for maryse, and she also gets some satisfaction in being able to flip the tables and be the one to reject her, for once. and alec is straight up like... “you never gave us any support, but now that you’ve lost everything, you want it from us? i’m just doing what you taught us, mother”

i think jace would probably be the one to be like “oh, come on, alec, she wasn’t that bad” almost scoffing at the idea and it’s just like... “between what she did to me, izzy, and magnus, she has to work a lot harder if she wants my forgiveness” and maryse is kind of taken aback because tbh up to this point she hadn’t given any thought whatsoever to what she did to magnus or downworlders in general

she’s probably kind of appalled by the idea tbh

but she also starts to like... lowkey... get it? i mean obviously she’s not a downworlder and she’ll never suffer what downworlders went through, but now that shadowhunter society has turned her back on her, now that she’s become depised by them too, she has a tiny little taste of what it feels like, and it’s not nice

especially cuz like, again... robert would drop her like a hot potato lol and like i don’t even blame him cuz she wasn’t exactly a great wife either and maryse would have done the same, i don’t think either of them ever had any illusions when it came to their marriage tbh. but robert uses her exact m.o. against her (since well, it was his, too) and that means that she gets to feel at least a little bit of forced sympathy for the people she’s done the same thing to

so i think she would come to luke (no i’m not going a lukemaryse route keep calm)

and luke is kind of like... well, i was waiting for this to happen. you know, because he is the one to comes closest to having been in maryse’s situation, since he’s also an ex-shadowhunter - except worse because he’s been turned downworlder, not just mundane

and it’s the first time she actually shows some level of empathy because she’s kind of like “i was just wondering... how did you deal with it when they... when all of us... turned our backs on you?” and she apologizes for that and that shocks luke because he didn’t expect it

and it’s easier for luke to forgive her because 1- it’s been a while; 2- they aren’t super close; 3- luke was also a fascist so like lmao; 4- there is one (1) person who understands what he went through, kinda. again not really because being a downworlder is way worse than mundane but who else comes close?

and look i’m not saying they become best friends or anything but they have a good talk about what it was like, and maryse is again forced to meet her own shittiness dead in the eye because when luke talks about what he went through when he was Turned, well, maryse was there. and now she is basically forced to empathize with him, who was on the other side, and see herself as the tormentor that other people are being to her now

and like again it’s not like she didn’t know that she was a shitty ass person and what she was doing was terrible but now all the walls he had put up to avoid acknowledging that are straight up torn down

she apologizes and he just kind of shrugs because it’s not like he’s gonna be like “yeah np lol” and this is not the kind of thing that you resolve easily, especially after such a long time, so it’s awkward. but again, he doesn’t exactly resent her anymore either, he’s more kind of... neutral i guess. like he made his peace with it a long time ago and an apology from one of the people involved is way more than he ever expected to get, so

also maryse doesn’t cry her woes because she is way too proud for that, which means that luke doesn’t have to deal with her Shadowhunter Tears on top of everything else. it’s more the opposite, really, it’s luke who talks and maryse who listens, and for the first time, luke gets to talk about how he felt about being turned and shunned without... i don’t want to say fear, but like, reservation? because obviously talking about this with a downworlder is worse and more awkward and more painful. because maryse was essentially worse than him, he gets to talk about it without shame, if that makes sense? and he also gets to say everything he’s always wanted to say to shadowhunters/circle members in general, and it does him good

they go their separate ways and luke is left feeling emotionally exhausted from reopening that wound but also like its scar has faded further, you know? and maryse is starting to actually genuinely want to be better, not just to convince people to not leave her

also, luke is by far the one who treated her best up to this point, so she feels a little lighter, even if it was far from a good interaction

i think the next she would go to would be magnus?? kinda?? like not right away of course, this isn’t shtv so i’m going with a long timeline that involves plenty of her living as a mundane and Thinking About What She’s Done and trying to find a purpose for her life now

i guess she would have that fucking shop? so there’s that. and in that time she gets to meet some mundanes and make tentative local-shop-owner/client sorta friendships and talk about what she went through in vague terms and get some advice that might actually be useful

anyway, magnus! so she would go to magnus because he’s one of the downworlders (and her experience with luke makes her think that they are more likely to forgive her since they weren’t close) but mostly because she wants to win alec over and she knows that will never ever happen if she isn’t nice to magnus. she’s racist, not stupid

magnus doesn’t let her into the loft, but he also doesn’t close the door on her face. from previous scenes (mostly max’s rune ceremony thing) we know that magnus is at least willing to try to have some sort of truce for alec’s sake, but there’s that, and there’s maryse marching into his home like nobody’s business expecting forgiveness when she directly killed at least a few people magnus cared about and/or was responsible for protecting

also it’s transparent that she’s doing it for alec, so magnus is like “while it is nice to know that you care this much about alexander... i can’t just forgive you” and she is a little outraged, but she leaves without making a fuss

meanwhile magnus is just emotionally depleted even from this very short interaction with her, because she’s just... too much

lowkey has a depression day after that because that is way too much and he’s just kind of in a slump, feeling empty and reliving the worst memories of the people he’s lost in that war. alec notices and magnus is vague about it, just like “maryse.... visited” and alec wants him to talk about it but magnus is not going to talk about everything alec’s mom did to him cuz she’s like... still alec’s mom. so it’s awkward and heavy but they both lowkey comfort each other for the rest of the day and cuddle and shit

also there’s max! with max it’s a little different because he’s not going to like, straight up not want to talk to maryse, and his relationship with her seemed to be a little different from the others anyway. he was still heavily influenced by her ideals, and even with the dirvorce/distancing/idk, obviously she and robert are still like, sharing the custody. and she asks max about alec and izzy (as well as jace when they get to talk) and max is very blunt about it too, very “they’re still pissed at you” and she’s like gee kid thanks, i know that, but how are they. are they ok?

and again max is a nosy bitch so whenever he sees alec and izzy he’s like “mom keeps asking how you guys are doing. she wanted to know about izzy’s new project” and izzy is shocked like “since when does she know about my projects?” and max shrugs like “idk”

and again, emotionally exhausting. especially when eventually max starts to say that maryse also asked how magnus was doing, and that hits alec like a billion bricks, because maryse is acknowledging their relationship? without him like, basically threatening her? lmao

cue their own version of depression days/weird coping mechanisms because they don’t know how to deal emotionally with this. izzy would probably throw herself headfirst into work like “emotions what emotions haha never heard of that anyway check out this corpse” and alec... shoots arrows until his hands bleed, as usual

because look, it’s hard, and i say that from firsthand experience. even the thought that your prejudiced parents might change gives hope. and alec had always been so loyal to family, to him, it was family before everything else, and that included maryse. and yes, he was manipulated by her, but he also did value family and he had some good moments, or moments that he saw as good (like the whole guy whose nose he broke thing) with her. so it’s just like... a lot of conflict because he kind of wants to turn his back on her and has been ever since he came out, but there’s a lot of emotions swirling inside of him

again magnus sees his bloodied hands and he heals them softly, asking him what happened. and alec is like “maryse is asking max about us” and magnus is like “oh” and again, alec is not going to go into the details of his relationship with his mom who killed magnus’ people, so it’s a little silent and awkward again, but they can again draw comfort from each other just from being together in silence and cuddling and shit

me? talking about malec cuddling in a maryse post? it’s more likely than you think

for a while alec and izzy do this weird dance around each other where they’re both like “you’re overworking yourself, want a break?” without actually acknowleding it because they know that if they actually tried they would both just keep uno +4 carding each other like “oh so why don’t you talk about how you feel?” “well why don’t you talk about how you feel?” “well but why don’t you talk abou-”

i think izzy might be the one to break first. if anything, because alec’s Big Brother instincts mean that he doesn’t want to come to her to cry his woes, because he feels like He Should Be The One To Protect Her. and she’s like “alec, i’m not a child, you can talk to me. and if we aren’t going to face this together, who are we going to face it with?” and alec just looks at her with that intense stare and izzy goes, “i feel disappointed in myself because a part of me is so happy that she finally cared about something i was creating” and just like that, alec’s walls are gone

he finally gets to really talk about how he feels with the whole maryse and magnus thing and admit that a part of him is also happy that she asked and that it sucks and he hates it and feels weak, basically

lightwood siblings mutual support because we are all about that shit! who’s maryse again

anyway max is kinda their bridge for a while, not even intentionally, but alec and izzy get to get used to the idea that maryse is trying because he tells them about it and he gets to see the small changes in maryse’s behavior you know? and so alec and izzy hear about that

it’s also probably because of max that they get to see her again, i mean, they are all family. and they’re both kinda bracing for some emotionally loaded interactions at the very least

but instead she has like kind of accepted that they don’t feel comfortable with her and that it’s her fault for using them instead of protecting them most of their lives so she leaves them be beyond the pleasantries and they find themselves... relaxing? not enough to talk to her but just to be able to breathe in her presence which is already a lot

so this goes on for a while. also, maryse does end up genuinely trying to help in the anti-valentine crusade, but like, she’s respectful about it? she definitely isn’t taking charge or going after downworlders when they couldn’t trust her, but she has A- intel because she knew him for most of his life and can help predict what he thinks (as can luke) and B- fierceness and willingness to do what he’s told. the fact that whenever a downworlder like luke or magnus tells her what to do she just nods and does as she’s told earns her a lot of points. she also doesn’t demand their trust in any way and doesn’t ask for any information so that helps even if of course it’s still tense for everyone involved. but maryse understands and acknowledges this. in this case the shadowhunter training also helps because she is very used to dealing with following orders, not being told things, and tense/uncomfortable environments lol so that means that she can be there without putting her shadowhunter fragility all over the place or demanding things she doesn’t have the right to

also whenever people ask her why she’s doing this (which happens frequently since you know. why does maryse lightwood care) she says that just accepting her punishment is not enough to undo her mistakes. she is responsible for this mess and it’s on her to help take it down as well as she possibly can

so slowly she starts to gain trust? and slowly her relationship with them both mends

i’m unsure whether alec or izzy would forgive her first. a part of me wants to say izzy because again, i feel like she is really desperate for maryse’s approval, while alec’s whole thing is that he's over needing it. i mean obviously alec is still human and like i said, a family man, so of course he also wants maryse to approve of him and them both to have a good relationship even if he hates that he does. but he’s been working too hard to break out of needing to be on maryse’s good books to start now. in a way, having maryse’s approval is almost triggering because he’s coming to associate maryse’s pride on him with his own suffering

but on the other hand, alec is a family man, and he was closer to maryse than izzy, so i could also see him being the one to forgive her first. maybe he is the one who gets back to talking to her first, but izzy is the one who once starts mending their relationship lowers her guard for real? while alec still has like... snappy and defensive tendencies (which are perfectly valid and healthy of him to have)? you know? like once izzy is like fine let’s give her a chance she actually does, while alec takes a long, long time to lower his guard, and that only happens like, way after valentine is defeated and magnus starts feeling more comfortable around maryse (obviously magnus and maryse won’t ever be BFFs, but over time he can handle her presence, you know? make small talk, have a sorta “i have my mom-in-law but what can we do” dynamic)

and yeah those are my thoughts? it takes some years for them to actually have a good relationship but it builds slowly and maryse does do her homework as much as possible so that’s nice

again, thank you so much for this question and i hope you like my answer

EDIT: here's some more on alec's response to the whole thing. thank you, anon!

#ask #anonymous #shadowhunters #sh #anti maryse lightwood #anti sh writers #anti sh #maryse lightwood #meta #alec lightwood #izzy lightwood #max lightwood #jace herondale #lightwood siblings #magnus bane #luke garroway

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smartchicken · 6 years

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Hi I show up every time you post which is haha, so funny, but I just wanna know if you've figured out that I'm a desperate bitch yet and if not, I'm a desperate bitch and I like your stuff. You're cool (also what're your thoughts on a road trip AU featuring young!Tony with a lot of trauma under his belt alongside honourably discharged Bucky who's forgotten how to live but they meet in the middle and it becomes a little easier to breathe)

-chokes-Oh manFirst off, i really would like to encourage people to just randomly describe themselves in my inbox.SECOND this is the first time I've replied to an ask with the mobile app and i don't understand why it's not automatically double spaced, it's really fucking with me, but I'm about as likely to do something about it as i am to tell my phone to auto-capitalize "i". I just Don't CareTHIRDLYROADTRIPokay first off I've had a very few good roadtrips and only one was "Long" (~18 hours) BUT i have great stories from those and now i am picturing not only a young Tony maybe on the run or just trying not to be home, and poor Bucky who got an honorable discharge but got fucked over because that's the American way, but all the avengers because the best roadtrip is when there's two cars and by about halfway through you're straight up enemiesSo like, car 1: Rhodey, Nat, Pepper, Bucky, and Tony. Car 2: Steve, Clint, Phil, and Sam. Because those are who i currently feel like giving a fuck about. Car 1 starts with a disadvantage because 5 people in one car always sucks but like, ride or die bitchesSo I'm sort of imagining this as BlackPepper combining their friendgroups in a fucking into the fire way like sink or swim love each other or else. Because it's that or awkward lunches for six months and they clearly don't have the time for that. I assume there is plotting going on because we all know it plotting redheads, but they probably lost control of the situation at one point because roadtripLike I'm imagining a college au so get in that mindset. I feel like Pepper immediately put her foot down about Tony, who's the only teenager there even though he acts like an old man. Pepper is just like okay Tony HAS to be with me or Rhodey at all times or I'll fuck everyone up Nat i stg i will kill your friends to death if they look strongly at my precious baby and Nat looks a this stubborn little asshole who is at once fearless and terrified and she's like, fair enoughBut Bucky, right? I know I'm a Tony fangirl but I'm not forgetting about Bucky. Cause Bucky went into the army at 18 and he came back three years later a different person. Steve didn't go with because a) he's a twiggy artist and b) Sarah would have murdered him after she destroyed the entire us military tbh. Bucky's a freshman, the only one in the group even though he's older than most of them. He's been back for like 6 months now and probably shouldn't even be dealing with college life but he's Bucky and lbr he's not gonna cut himself any slack. But by golly his friends love him and will absolutely fight everyone for him, even himself. So while Pepper's like "protect my son" Nat is like okay let's try to make sure Bucky's with Steve because they're kinda codependent but we're letting that happen for now because we have bigger fish to fry, but on the dl because currently Bucky won't admit to any issues under penalty of death.So day of the roadtrip. I dunno where they're going probably tourist shit they're just like get in the car we'll head for such and such and go from there. My only frame of reference here is Florida so I'm picturing them having to drive at least five hours before they have any reason to stop.Oh! Yes so first stop is gonna be a spring or river or some sort of water shitSoGetting ready to go is Hell they have to fit enough shit for nine people into two regular sized trunks. So they've gotta clean literally everything but the spare tire outta those("Fuck it, leave the tire," Clint suggests. He's packed all of a backpack and, incomprehensibly, his bow with three arrows and he's absolutely going to reek in about two days and probably didn't bring any shampoo or a toothbrush. It's probably like, a t-shirt, some boxers, and swim trunks. He'll wear the same shorts for a month he doesn't care. "If we get stuck on the side of tree road, I'll feed you to buzzards for sport," Pepper says pleasantly. She knows him a little better than most of Nat's friends because her and Clint half live together. They get along fine but Pepper progressed to threats much quicker than Clint is comfortable with. He thought about telling her it was hot but decided he liked his balls intact. "Just shove over the duffle," Bucky said. Tony's being quiet but he's got a toolkit packed in case anything goes wrong; there'll be no stuck-on-the-roadside on his watch. )So they get the trunks sorted and there's a couple bags in the backseats but it's good enough. Then Phil shows up (when did he leave???) and stuffs some blankets and pillows into both cars. "My family likes roadtrips," he says. His eyes are dead. Phil is not including himself in his family here. Phil tried to beg off but Pepper couldn't get Happy and Nat couldn't get Scott etc etc for various missing people and Phil agrees to come because, ultimately, these socially-challenged morons need a voice of reason and that's not Pepper or Nat OR Sam, no matter what they think(The truth is they're all reckless idiots and Phil's no exception but combined they can keep each other safe-ish or at least get in trouble together)((Tony didn't want to come either but more because he doesn't want to get underfoot. But Rhodey and Pepper made the mistake of trusting his "I'm fine" and leaving him alone for a few weeks at school exactly once. Pepper had hugged him and said "Pretty please?" and Tony's no good at turning down requests, especially from his few, beloved friends))(((Nat took a different approach with Bucky, who didn't want to come either. "If you don't come Steve won't come and then you'll have to say at Steve and Sam's wedding that it was delayed all because you skipped out on the best roadtrip ever.""It is going to be awful," Bucky said. Nat gave a particularly Russian shrug. Bucky sighed and gave in. He didn't exactly wanna spend a week in the dorms alone anyway.)))And then they really just wanna get going what the fuck guys it's already evening should we just wait til morning no fucking way shut your mouth we're going n o wPepper and Nat manage to be together, and they manage to pay Tony and Bucky special attention, as intended. But uh. Oops?It's Rhodey driving with Pepperi the passenger seat, mostly out of habit; they've done short road trips a lot at this point and it's always Rhodey driving to start, Pepper up front so Tony can nap in the backBut uhTony's in the middle in the back, with a pillow and a tablet in his lap. He's putting on a good show of being Totally Fine, but he's clearly tense. Bucky's smooshed against the door as much ash can, broadcasting discomfort like a cat in the rain. Nat leans against the door too, trying to be considerate, but Pepper starts texting her urgently( TOUCH HIM!!!!!hes so tense wtfNat I love you trust me and touch him a littleAnd Nat shifts over just a bit, so her legs are against Tony's, and for a second he freezes, and then he finally loses some of that tensionTOUCH STARVED?????? Nat texts Pepper, alarmed for this kid.His dad sucks, is Pepper's take, and Nat scowls and gets comfortable, pointedly touching Tony without pushing into his space.)MEANWHILE Phil is the odd man out but he's driving so it kinda works. Clint's in the passenger seat because Clint is a no good dirty cheater, and also has very stern, specific instructions from Nat. Steve and Sam are the most comfortable of the entire group, and within an hour they've got their feet a little tangled, not cuddling but not-not cuddling, and Steve's dosing a little cause he took a motion sickness thing and it always makes him a little sleepy"So Pepper seems terrifying," Clint says to Phil as an opener. They probably should've hung out at least a little before this because Pepper and Nat are the only things he can think of to talk about (and maybe it's not helping that Phil is weirdly hot and serious and he's seen him smile a couple times and he's trying to figure out how to see it up close but it turns out it's not hard cause right away Phil grins and chuckles a little and Clint thinks he's maybe having a heart attack)"So does Natasha. Or is it just Nat?""Sometimes it's Natalia," Clint says automatically, which isn't very helpful. "Uh. What are you studying?" Which is stupid and cliche but Phil manages to turn it into an actual conversation and in the backseat Sam's texting the whole thing to Bucky, who keeps sending back strings of emojis that aren't always sensible but like, Sam totally gets it. And then Sam gets a text of the top of a head of messy dark brown curls and a string of panicking emojis. There's a suspicious blushing emoji in there though and Sam snickers to himself. Steve wakes up with a little "hm?" which is too cute for words so Sam just passes him the phoneTony started off working on his tablet but he hasn't slept in...a while and he's been stressing about this but now he's in Rhodey's familiar car and Pepper's got classic rock going kinda quiet and Nat snuck her toes under his leg and he fights it for a while, but eventually he slumps over, and he doesn't even notice himself sliding towards the warmth that smells like machine oil and leather. Tony looks small and sweet and quiet and Bucky likes to watch him sometimes, when he can, even though he feels like a creep. It's just that Tony seems so alive in a way that Bucky can't really capture. Like he's so tired but so full of life and fire and maybe that's optimism he's not sure but he thinks it might be. Everyone always seems tired on campus, or young and stupid, or just so unrelatable. And it's not that he can relate to Tony so much as he wishes he could. Like watching the moon in the surface of a lake and being afraid of the ripples. Bucky slowly relaxes, lulled into it by Tony's quiet breathing, and Nat gives him a very obvious thumbs up, with a certain look in her eyes, and he catches Rhodey's eye in the rearview mirror, so he slides down a little, slowand quiet, tucks an arm around Tony and lets himself relax, puts down three phone and stares out the windowThey stop at an all-night walmart when Clint suddenly realizes they don't have SUPPLIESWATER SUPPLIES!!!Bucky and Tony go in, with Clint and Phil, to get Supplies, while everyone else stretches their legs or texts demands for snacks.They grab a bunch of stuff, everything that looks even mildly amusing, Tony sleep-fuzzy and relaxed from it, and in line him and Clint attack each other with pool noodles, earning a few glares from other shoppers, but they're laughing too!much to care. There's not really room in the cars for everything but they make it work and they're all wide awake then, everyone chattering for the last two hours before they realize they should've arrived by now and then Rhodey stops (he was the one leading) and there's dogs barking and they're in a trailer park andPhil calls him just to ask, "What the fuck Rhodes."They all get out their phones and they're yelling directions at Rhodey and they're lucky he loves them because seriously they deserve death at this point. They pull up to the park at 5am when they should've been there at, oh, 1 or so no one's sure how they got so turned around but they made it yaaayAnd then "Fuck," Pepper says. "Tents."And that's where I'm leaving this for now cause I'm tired of typing on mobile but tbh i wanna write a college roadtrip now. I'm just imagining a lot of cuddles at this point everyone gets maximum hugs plz. Also i can't tag this??? So thanks mobile

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terresdebrume · 7 years

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So I finally finished rewatching Thor (my laptop doesn’t like playing a movie after a day’s work) and tbh it’s interesting to think of how my interpretation of Loki’s situation has gone over the years.

When I first saw that movie, honestly, I was not only 100 % on Loki’s side, it was simply impossible for me to like Thor, or Odin, or basically anyone else in the movie no matter how badass they were (sorry, Sif). I was in a pretty bad place that winter and Loki’s emotional position struck me as so deeply relatable it hurts...which kind of showed, since I wrote 80 fics featuring (and, often, starring) Loki out of, at the time, something like 115 stories1.

After a while and some navigating through the Thor vs Loki fans/stans wars on Tumblr, it kind of evolved into thinking that yes, Loki’s feelings of hurt and betrayal were real, but since his family loved him he should just work on his own insecurities and get over it, so to speak. The part where Loki was a Frost Giant and how that put Odin’s actions in a different light (whether you assume Odin’s reactions to Loki were 100 % conscious or not) was...pushed aside, sort of. I think it was in part because you can hardly reconcile ‘Loki, this is on you, get over it’ and ‘maybe your parents didn’t really treat you as you needed and maybe it’s in part due to your species and their racism’.

The funny bit is, how I view Loki’s situation seems to be tied to how I interpret my own, actually. Back in 2011, I was very angry toward my family and half convinced they didn’t love me (fun times, in case you were wondering). By 2012, when Avengers came out, I’d fantasized so much about Loki coming back and getting the apologies he needed (from his parents, from his brother, from basically anyone in his life) listening to Thor’s jokes about how Loki was adopted physically hurt. I can’t say that raised the character in my esteem, but at the same time, looking back on it...well, it’s kind of a realistic continuation of Thor. I mean, by the end of that movie no one seems to question Odin’s decisions, no one seems to consider maybe there were things that led to this state of affair in the family besides Loki’s own character/judgment flaws.

At the time, if I recall correctly, that kind of felt like a slap to the face. It didn’t entirely prevent me from enjoying the movie, but I still couldn’t help but feel it was one more way to remind me the public that I Loki was making it all up and needed to shut up because my his family loved me him and therefore not being satisfied with that was, in essence, a character flaw.

In The Dark World, Loki gets punished for what he did in Thor and The Avengers which, lbr he deserves (though full disclosure, I subscribe to the manipulation and psychological abuse at the hand of Thanos theory, so I’m less on board for punishing him for that2). Once again though, there is no questioning of other people’s behavior around him. Frigga basically tells him he’s too self-centered/a bit of a hypocrite, people who supposedly mourned for him3 line up to issue death threats...once again, it’s all on him and his core flaw of not being happy with what makes other people happy. And once again, I thought maybe Loki ought to just get over himself and be happy with things as they were. 2013 was a bit of a better year for me4 so in a sense, it was easier to think that maybe, if I just got it through my head that my family loved me, I’d finally be happy and feel content with myself...which in turn made it easier to accept, again, that Loki was probably just a lost cause and should get over himself.

And then came Ragnarok.

I haven’t really made it a secret that I was disappointed by it, in significant parts because the humor trend of ‘let’s ridicule our character’ was taken way further than what I expected from this franchise and strayed waaaay away from the tone of the previous two movies5. But with a little more time to think about it, I think anther significant part of my disappointment with this move is that, once again, I didn’t get the emotional conclusion I was hoping for. I’m no longer in the same emotional state as I was in 2011, but I’ve also let go of the ‘you should get over it’ mindset, both for myself and for Loki. I’ve said it before but it bears repeating: how I view Loki’s situation is heavily influenced by how I process mine and vice-versa. The result of that is, as I allowed myself to feel hurt/wronged by the way my family acted around me again, it kind of allowed me to start wishing for...idk, balance? A satisfying end to my emotional arc? And to wish the same thing for Loki.

Thor: Ragnarok was...a painful, but probably realistic reminder that this will probably never happen. Beyond the fact that both Frigga and Odin are now dead and are therefore incapable of evolving in any capacity, I highly doubt Thor is ever going to wake up and realize what it’s like to be in Loki’s shoes, which would be a requirement for him to realize what kind of apology Loki needs to hear and why. Similarly, I highly doubt my family is ever going to wake up and apologize for the way they reacted to how they and I were different and how much that hurt, sometimes.

The common point here is Thor, like my fam, did nothing wrong by the social standards he’s accustomed to. I doubt Asgard sees dismissing un-warrior-like behavior as wrong, I doubt they see asserting your alpha male authority by telling others to shut up as wrong, and I doubt they see the constant mocking and belittling of Frost Giants as wrong...so for Thor to admit doing these things are wrong and hurtful would require him to admit not only that he has been hurting someone he cares about by accident but also that the entire moral landscape he (and his country) based his worldview on is flawed, which is complicated and painful and which Thor hasn’t shown any sign of doing so far, and neither has my family6

From there, the logical conclusion is that the moment of emotional justice I crave for both myself and Loki will most likely never happen. I don’t think there’s ever going to be a moment when Thor looks Loki in the eyes and says ‘I didn’t mean to, but I hurt you anyway, I get how, I’m sorry, and I’m not gonna do it again’. I don’t know how they’ll deal with that in the movies, if they’ll keep this craving as part of Loki’s characterization or if they’ll eventually reach a point where Loki is just a-okay with his situation even without the emotional closure7 but either way, it’s not going to happen for Loki, and it’s probably not going to happen to me either and that is...something I have trouble mourning, I guess. Which, well. There’s always fics, and things I could write myself, but it’s not exactly the same thing, is it?

I’m doing a rough estimate of my cumulated AO3+FFN count of the time here. Might get it wrong.

Also for what it’s worth I think it’s super fucked up (though utterly unsurprising) how the entire franchise dropped Loki’s frost-giant-ness and how that probably influenced the way Odin (and, consequently, everyone else) treated him, not to mention the hot mess that is his decision to exterminate all Frost Giants only after he discovers he is one.

Not very long if we got by the ending of Thor but, you know. Let’s pretend they did. (Also I acknowledge that, post Thor, they have rock solid reason to assume he’d be capable of attempting murder on Thor and to distrust him in general. I guess I just feel like they mourned their supposed friendship with him really fast).

Shoutout to my tumblr friends and to the awesome Winnie for helping me through so much bullshit.

The most frustrating part of that is that there are many things to like in this movie, from the criticism of Asgard’s imperialism and the whole ‘benevolent conqueror’ narrative that’s been the baseline from Thor and was criticized even then, to the fact that Ragnarok!Loki is probably the closest we’ve seen to the real Loki (given that it’s the first movie where he didn’t start out in the middle of an emotional crisis). Unfortunately for me, the way they were conveyed didn’t jam with my hopes/expectations for the movie.

I never pretended this wasn’t a personal post ^^’

To be honest, what I’ve heard about Loki in Infinity Wars so far kind of makes me fear a relapse, but I’m hoping they’re just planting red herrings. Hopefully.

#my posts #matt has a life #matt watches #mcu #loki #thor #thor's first #What were you the god of again #spoilers #ragnarok spoilers #where is my oversized male ego #my meta #mcu meta #this is half meta half personal tbh #replying to it purely on meta levels is ok though

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