#....some of these people are rapists whereas others are not......

[mermaidsirennikita]

always wild to see people freak out over dark romance novels when you know they're also like... Spuffy shippers? or something along those lines?

I mean, I have no issue with that lmao, I've had ships that are on the same level, but I don't know, it's just like... are you romanticizing the thing you're shipping to the point that you don't recognize its own darkness, or are you fully aware of that and just knowingly hypocritical?

[2rats1gogh]

Same anon here with more- people need to stop conflating Aegon with Joffrey Baratheon.

Aegon has done some despicable things that I won’t make excuses for but he’s not the rabid dog that Joffrey was. Cersei, Tyrion and Tywin struggled to rein him in at 13 years old and once that crown was on his head a monster was let loose. Alicent can actually reason and get through to Aegon at pivotal times. Cersei could not do that with Joffrey.

Aegon above all craves Alicent’s approval and affection, he turns into a sniveling mess at Alicent’s scolding at his big age. Alicent is not afraid to tell Aegon exactly what she’s thinking. She doesn’t placate, pacify or coddle like everyone had to do with Joffrey because he was out of control, cruel AND stupid at the same time. Helaena is the most important person in the world to Alicent and Aegon is not going to harm the most precious thing in the world to Alicent. Helaena doesn’t have to fear Aegon bashing her head in with a rock or choking her after she has just had a stillbirth….

He called her an idiot at 14, yes it wasn’t nice but it was completely normal. At 14 I called my sister a cunt right across the dinner table, but I've also fought for that same sister. They are siblings and that interaction that made them seem more human as opposed to their 2 dimensional team black counterparts who always just smile and have kind words for each other- except when Jacaerys was beating the shit out of Luke on the beach, but no one is saying how miserable Luke was despite Luke actually seeming unhappy with parts of his life. He was even vocal about these things. Whereas Heleana who is a blunt speaker, has not said anything like that.

Helaena doesn’t look afraid of Aegon, she doesn’t look afraid of anyone in her immediate family (including Criston) as much as team black would like her to be. At the most Aegon ignores her, like she said. Honestly ignoring her is preferable to what Viserys was doing to Alicent. She had 3 children before she even reached 20. Aemond and Helaena are almost Irish twins. In the show Helaena and Aegon just have the twins who are maybe 4-5 years old, so Aegon is not forcing himself on Helaena.

We don’t know much about Helaena in the show because they decide to delete certain scenes and include other stupid filler scenes when they contain fan favorites…but Helaena in the book was happy. Her input towards the war was valued. She loved her children and everyone could agree she was a wonderful mother.

Her life isn’t perfect, there is no woman in that time period whose life is. Her husband is so far from perfect but that doesn’t mean Helaena lived a life of misery.

The book even says basically that Helaena died with Jaehaerys that night and Alicent didn’t kill Jaehaerys. That was Daemon Targaryen.

And when pointing the finger at Alicent, remember that she didn’t make Helaena on her own. She had a useless father who ignored her and her siblings her entire life. Viserys withheld his love from them out of some twisted loyalty to his first wife that he killed and his oldest child by this wife. These things would have a deep emotional impact on a person, it certainly has on her brothers. Stop letting Viserys off the hook.

(the way you called Joffrey a rabid dog omg I’m cryingggg😭😭😭😭 shxjskkzkvzlclwgzjpf)

but yeah, you are so so so right.

I hate it when people, mostly TB, compare Aegon to Joffrey. Like the ONLY two things they have in common is an ambitious (?) widow mother queen and also the fact that both aren’t very nice people. But that’s about it. Aegon at his worst doesn’t even come close to how horrendous Joffrey was on a regular day. Aegon never killed people for fun, he didn’t publicly humiliate Helaena like Joffey did with Sansa. And as I say, I am ignoring the fact that he’s a rapist because it was literally added out of nowhere, makes no sense, and has no relevance to the plot whatsoever. It was added purely to make Aegon and TG look bad. Canonically he is literally just a lazy alcoholic.

And I absolutely agree with what you said about Helaena. TB often say that “aLiCeNt MaDe HeR LiFe HeLl” but she literally didn’t? She would NEVER have her marry Aegon if Aegon was like Joffrey Baratheon. You can call Aegon every insult in the book, he was neglectful, he ignored her, he wasn’t really present in the lives of their kids, but he was NOT an abusive husband or father. And as you said, unlike Viserys, he never forced himself on Helaena. He wasn’t obsessed with the idea of having as many children as possible with her. Literally not at any point his nonexistent “abusive” behavior is shown, not even in the show. During the dinner scene Helaena literally jokes about her relationship with him, she seems comfortable and chill.

Sure, as you said, her life was far from perfect. In the books she does give birth at 14, in the show, since everyone is slightly older, she most likely was 16? Not that uncommon actually. She still had her mother, and her brothers, she has sir Criston. Aegon’s behavior was controlled by Alicent, so he would NEVER hurt her. If you remember how Alicent reacted to Aegon forcing himself upon Dyana (dumb scene overall but still) you can only imagine how she would react if he treated Helaena the same way.

[bloodyshadow1]

A-Train is such an interesting character, because is season 1 he is clearly the bad guy. He is basically Hughie's arch enemy because he killed Robin and barely cared, it's not just enemy stuff because they're on different sides, it's personal for them. That caused Hughie to join the boys and created their feud, where the Boys blackmail Popclaw, A-Train kills her and blames Hughie for using her, A-Train goes to his house and threatens his dad, Hughiehas Kimiko break one of his legs, when A-train is healed up he goes after Hughie personally and has a heart attack after beating Starlight. Hughie however saves his life but they aren't even in A-Trains eyes, but they're both alive by the end. That's kind of the last time A-Train specifically is 'the bad guy' in the show because once season 2 rolls around, he has other problems than Hughie to deal with and so does Hughie. They don't like each other, but they're forced to ally up for their own advancement.

The things is, as the show goes on, we see how dark the world is and unfortunately, while Hughie hates him personally, A-Train is one of the better Supes, and even people in the main cast. It doesn't make him a good person by any means, but just by showing how terrible the rest of the world is, it changes the curve and puts him on the better side, despite his actions being very personal. As far as we know, his 3 big sins are killing Robin, killing Popclaw, and betraying Supersonic to Homelander so he killed him. There might be more but that's why I can remember. I'm not counting standing aside to let Deep and Newoir kill the homelander stans, or taking Bluehawk to the community meeting because while that was dumb and ended tragically he was trying to do some good with it. And don't get me wrong, he's done plenty of terrible things and threatened to do more, but wasn't able to follow up on it so it's hard to judge. I'm not downplaying what he's done, it's just that 3 people are a lot less compared to what other people have done. And yes, the implication is that Robin wasn't the first or last person A-Train killed like that, but it's hard when it's just the implication of something that happened off screen.

Everyone in the Boys has blood on their hands on both sides and it's hard to judge A-Train given how horrible the other characters are. Because the thing is, there's a difference between personal and actual when it comes to judging a person. You hate the person who bullied you in school more than someone who committed a mass shooting hundreds of miles away. It's not that you like the shooter more, it's just that while you condemn them, it's not personal, you don't hate them, you think they're horrible and but you stop thinking about it because it doesn't impact your life. Whereas even if you adulthood you might hate your childhood bully for what they did to you, you might never actually recover or get closure for it. That's what it's like Hughie/the viewer and A-train. Because Hughie is the audience surrogate and we see the shit that happens between him and A-Train, we're trained to hate him. However he's still only the middle of the pact in the Seven that we meet. Homelander is homelander, The deep is a serial rapist, Black Noir has killed a lot of people on missions and cleaning up after Homelander, but is also Edgars hitman until he's ousted. Then there's Translucent who I'd put on the same horrible level as A-Train, he's a pervert who sexually harrasses at least his teammates and went to silence Hughie, but we don't really see him (for lack of a better word) do anything else as horrible as the other 3, partially because he dies so quickly. Below A-Train's level are Maeve who is apathetic, but does still do hero stuff and is more broken than evil. And finally Starlight who genuinely wanted to do good in the Seven, but then realized what they actually were.

The thing is, even Starlight has blood on her hands. She murdered someone in season 2. It was to save Hughie's life and he drew a gun on her, but she still killed him. You can't even call it self defense because the only reason why he drew the gun on her was because he didn't want to get his car stolen, and even then a handgun wouldn't have hurt her anyway. He died so she could save Hughie. I don't think it makes her a monster, but it does mean she has blood on her hands that she kind of ignores for the rest of the series so far. The point isn't that she is a monster or just as bad, but she has done bad stuff to protect herself and the people she loves, or in the name of the greater good.

The rest of the boys are even worse because MM is probably the cleanest besides Hughie, he is still an accomplice to a lot of horrible stuff that they do for the sake of taking down Supes. Butcher, like Homelander is Butcher, he's willing to do horrible things to get what he wants, he has more restraint than his arch nemesis but he's still done a lot of horrible things to kill Homelander, murder included. Frenchie has done tons of horrible stuff when he was working for Nina, he is trying to make up for it or at least do good and be kind now, but it doesn't change he murdered innocent people because his boss told him to. Kimiko murdered a lot of people, most were bad, but she didn't do it because ti was the right thing to do, she did it for money and because they were bad so it made it okay. And let's not even get started on the stuff she did as a brainwashed child soldier of the Shining Light.

But it's okay that the Boys are doing bad things, because for the most part supes are worse. Every Supe that is mentioned is horrible unless they're a joke of fodder. Racists who kill black people because they're 'criminals,' or target migrant workers because they know they can get away with. Rapists who know vought will pay to cover up their crimes and keep their victims silent one way or another. the list goes on.

The point isn't that A-Train is innocent or not a bad guy, he's done both and has been sympathetic since season 1. then kind of became the butt monkey of the show that no one really respects by season 3, before getting his powers back. He is a complex character in a gray world. The more time goes on, the more messed up the curve is. He isn't a saint, but I think he's sympathetic and it does mean that it seems like currently he seems to be on the path to redemption, and I hope he is redeemed and survives switching sides.

[velvetvexations]

[slight cw for rape in context of kink discourse stupidity]

the way people paint the Transandrobro Movement or whatever tf as "whiny white men" is verrrrry interesting (this is specifically in context of the post where the op was talking about how sad it is that sooo many transandobros are clearly just young boys being manipulated), because:

the clear implication there is that it's white people misusing black feminist theory/theory originating in broader black feminist thought. sure. would be a salient point... if Serano wasn't also white and hadn't ignored core issues intersectionality addresses (race!!!) when theorizing transmisogyny (see: Krell's critique)

adding to that: aren't some of the bigger people theorizing transandrophobia and talking about their experiences on here literally non-white? like, yes, iirc koolaid*, ftmtftm (now deactivated but previously very active) and nothorses arent tmoc, but. dober is black. trans-androgyne is pacific islander. st-dionysus himself is fucking mestizaje.

adding to THAT: very convenient that these call out posts about dionysus's kink activities allllllways leave out the fact he is mestizaje. could this have to do with the fact that inverting the Tranny Rapist trope onto a white trans man works for a radfem framework that tries to launder itself as the progressive version, whereas saying out loud that he is not a whiny white sexual aggressor would force people to reckon with the fact that racialized men's masculinity is used to further demonize them in context of a white supremacist society, where what is positive about white hegemonic masculinity is made out to make the racialized man into a more aggressive being?

what the fuck is with the "well yes black men are oppressed by larger society but they still structurally oppress black women". when black men are brought up as a category demonized in society for the combination of race and gender, it's because the hegemonic group (white, possibly even - gasp - white WOMEN) can have structural power over a devalued group (black). where the fuck is anyone saying that just because maleness is demonized in black men it means they can't oppress black women? and why is anyone acting as if race:gender as constructs are 1:1 in how they are perceived and used against people, rather than seeing it as an example of another group of men whose masculinity isn't helpful for them in not getting hatecrimed by the dominant group?

*not sure if koolaid is white, eir blog doesn't say

That reminds me that the other day I saw a post claiming transandrophobia folk chased off all the Black trans lesbians who were upset about people using a word coined by a "white-mestize."

The things people say on the internet, right?

[sinsirellaxx]

Unspoken Truths

Aemond x Jacaerys

Warning: Not proofread – sorry for any mistakes!

Life wasn’t fair – it never was. Never has been. Never will be. Some people were luckier than others, whereas most were floating between lucky and unlucky. And some were second born sons – spares as some liked to call them. Without the right to anything but sloppy seconds if the chance arises – if the gods felt gracious. Even if he was more deserving than his older brother. His rapist, drunk, lazy, stupid older brother – sitting next to their oldest nephew, whispering who knows what into his ear. His grip on his cup tightened as he watched said nephew frown deeply, leaning away from his annoying uncle as he fidgeted around in his seat in discomfort.

Aegon laughed loudly as he threw his arm around his nephew’s shoulder, pulling the younger male closer to him.

His jaw tightened. How dare he? Not only was his brother utterly useless – but he had also always been close with dearest Jace. His Jace.

Aemond Targaryen sat in the great hall, his eyes locked onto the scene before him. The laughter and chatter of the feast around him faded into the background as he focused on Aegon and Jacaerys. His brother's arm draped casually over Jacaerys’ shoulder ignited a fire of jealousy in Aemond's chest.

Why does it always have to be Aegon? What made him special? He bested his older brother in everything. Aemond's thoughts were a storm of bitterness and longing. He had always been the dutiful son, the one who trained tirelessly, who studied the histories and mastered the sword. Yet it was Aegon, with all his flaws, who seemed to effortlessly win people over, including Jacaerys. Jacaerys, with his dark curls, beautiful hazel eyes and pouty lips.

His throat suddenly felt dry, and the Dornish wine in his cup did not help ease the scratchy feeling. Aemond yearned for the closeness that Aegon seemed to still have– for the bond that had eluded him.

As Aemond watched, he saw Jacaerys shift uncomfortably under Aegon’s arm. A small frown on his face as Aegon whispered something into his ear. The sight stirred something ugly in him – the need to protect his nephew throbbed like an open wound. The fierce desire to take Jacaerys away from his brother’s clutches made him clutch his cup tighter. He set said cup down with a determined clink and rose from his seat, making his way towards his annoying brother.

“Aemond,” Aegon greeted him with a lazy smile as he approached. “Come join us. Jace and I were just having a chat.” The older prince snickered, his hand still on Jace’s shoulder as he played with the short brown locks on the younger male’s neck. Aemond’s single eye followed the motion, jaw clenching at the way the boy shivered slightly – the skin touched by his brother breaking out into goosebumps.

Aemond’s eye flicked to Jacaerys’s face, who met his gaze with a mixture of relief and apprehension. “Aegon,” he said coolly, “perhaps Jacaerys would prefer some fresh air. The hall is quite stifling tonight.”

Jacaerys seized the opportunity, nodding quickly. “Yes, I think I would. Thank you, uncle Aemond.”

Aegon’s grip on Jacaerys’ shoulder tightened briefly before he let go, a hint of annoyance crossing his features. “Don’t keep him too long, little brother. We were just getting to the good part.”

Aemond’s nostrils flared but tried to ignore the jibe as best as he could as he motioned for Jacaerys to follow him. They made their way out of the hall and into the cool night air, the sounds of the feast fading behind them. They walked in silence for a while, the tension between them palpable.

“I’m sorry about Aegon,” Aemond said finally, breaking the silence. “He can be... overbearing.”

Jacaerys whipped to stare at his uncle with wide eyes – surprised by the apology. He had expected his other uncle to curse him, fight him – anything but this. Running a hand through his brown hair his shoulders visibly relaxed as he finally managed to find his words.

“It’s not your fault, uncle. I just wish he would understand that not everyone enjoys his company as much as he thinks they do.” His voice came out surprisingly stable – no signs of disbelief or surprise detectable.

Aemond frowned as doubt filled him, a smirk tugging at the corner of his lips at his nephew’s words. “You surely jest, nephew. You have always been rather loyal to my brother – following after him like a little pup. Practically begging for his attention with your big brown eyes – one might think you’d be infatuated with him.” He spat out the last part, obviously vexed by the idea of Jacaerys being in love with his brother.

Jacaerys glared at him, his face hardening as he took in the blonde’s words. “It appears my brother has taken more than just your eye then – you truly are blind, uncle.”

Aemond’s smirk faded, his eyes burning with something the younger couldn’t name. “Heed your tongue, nephew.” Stepping closer he easily towered over the younger male, their chests almost touching.

“Or what?” The prince of Dragonstone challenged as he angled his face up to glare into his uncle’s eye.

Gritting his teeth, Aemond’s right hand shot out to take hold of the younger’s chin harshly, lifting the other boy’s face closer to his. “You forget your place, Jacaerys,” he hissed, his voice low and dangerous. “You won’t like what I have in store for you. Do not provoke me, Strong.”

Jacaerys, his chin trapped in Aemond’s grasp, hissed when the taller male’s nails dug into his skin. But he refused to back down. “You may have the advantage in size and strength, uncle, but that does not make you right. And here I thought you were trying to be nice.”

Aemond scoffed. The words hit him like a slap, and for a moment, something like doubt or guilt flickered in his eye. He had wanted to help him, wanted to protect him from his crude brother. But one of the very few things that Aemond could not manage were his emotions.

“You are one to talk.” Aemond sneered, his grip tightening momentarily before he released Jacaerys’s chin with a rough shove. “Calling me blind but you cannot even see what this is all really about.” Aemond leaned closer, his hot breath fanning over the younger’s face.

“This is about you, nephew. You are right – I was trying to be nice. To protect you. ”

Jacaerys gaped at his uncle his dark brows still pulled into a frown. “I don’t need your protection.”

Aemond’s eye narrowed, a flicker of something more than anger in his gaze. “Sure, you don’t.” He scoffed. “So, you would have managed Aegon all by yourself, then?”

Jacaerys nodded. Aemond’s grip tightened.

“But you haven’t done anything to ward his advances off – am I correct in assuming that you actually enjoyed my brother’s attention then?”

Jacaerys blinked, taken aback. “What? No! I just did not wish to make a scene in front of grandsire. Why does it even bother you so much?”

Aemond’s expression softened, just a fraction. “Because it’s you – because I don’t want anyone to touch you. To be close to you. To even breathe the same air as you. It’s always been you to me.”

Jacaerys’s breath caught in his throat. “You’re mad.”

“Perhaps,” Aemond admitted, a sad smile tugging at his lips. “But it doesn’t change the truth. I’ve wanted you, Jacaerys. Wanted you in ways you can’t even imagine. Wanted you in exchange for my eye.” His voice dropped to a whisper, his fingers finally letting go of the younger’s chin.

Jacaerys took a step back, his mind reeling. “You’re lying. This is another one of your twisted games.”

Aemond shook his head slowly. “No games, Jacaerys. Just the truth. And you can’t run from it forever.”

Jacaerys’s heart pounded in his chest, confusion and anger swirling within him. “This is insane. You’re insane.”

“Insane or not,” Aemond replied softly, “the truth remains. And one day, you’ll have to face it.”

Jacaerys turned and walked away, his steps hurried and unsteady. Aemond watched the younger’s retreating form as he let him walk away. His hands balled into fists at his sides with restricted anger. It had hurt to watch Jacaerys walk away – it broke his heart into pieces. But he knew the younger needed some time. For now, the confrontation was over, but Aemond knew it was only a matter of time before they faced each other again.

[sokkastyles]

I'm sorry, I'm just really morbidly curious about how Zucest shippers have beef with Zutara shippers? What's the lore?

Sure, the ships share a character but they're wildly different in everything. I would never guess a little ship war would break out here.

There is a group of Azula stans (small, but with a lot of free time) that also ship KA, whether due to hating Zuko and thus also hating zutara on principle, or due to the fact that Aang feeds their victim complex in the same way that Azula does, because of a perception of being wrongfully hated in the fandom, or a combination of both, I don't know. My guess is that these ideas feed off of each other, but I absolutely think these people only really like Aang/KA because of how it feeds into their Azula stanning. Their hatred for zutara isn't so much about a ship war as it is that zutara makes Zuko look good, because it's one of the relationships that most highlights his growth in the series. And because Azula's downfall serves as a foil to highlight Zuko's growth, this group of Azula stans can't have that.

You see, it isn't so much that they ship Zuko with his sister, it's the way they do it. All their ideologies are about making Azula look better, and feeding that sweet sweet victim complex. The way they do this is by headcanoning Zuko as an incestuous rapist. Either to demonize him or to make him seem "just as bad" as Azula, it varies, but both come from the same place.

Even though (or more likely because) in canon, it's actually Azula who abuses Zuko. Not sexually, but she does try to use his relationship with Mai to control him in a way that's pretty skeevy, and is emotionally abusive and manipulative towards him. So a lot of this is just basic DARVO behavior.

Although I do think some of them have been drinking their own kool-aid so long that they genuinely think that Zuko is an abuser, which explains why they think zutara would be abusive, if you tilt your head sideways and chug a gallon of whiskey.

I also think there's some fascinating misogyny at work in the belief that Zuko raping Azula is hot whereas poor Katara must be protected from the bad man even looking in her direction.

[mlmxreader]

let's talk about konigsblog. like, seriously.

if you're in the COD fandom, you probably already know exactly who they are and what level of depravity and disgust that they engage in. so let's talk about it.

for those who don't know: konigsblog routinely writes rape and pseudo-incest fic and tries to brush it off as "dark fic" and as "dead dove", whilst simultaneously trying to negate and undermine the experiences of irl survivors of incest, rape and other abuses by claiming that bc they're writing fiction, it's fine. anyone with a brain worth 2 pence can tell you that their excuses are bullshit and that they're just a fetisher who doesn't actually give a shit about the people who are genuinely hurt by such disgusting material.

now. I write dark fic routinely, I have written about topics such as trauma, heavy gore, serial killing, etc. what makes dark fic dark is the fact that it is about a topic of which you would expect in something akin to a horror film or a horror novel - something like the Dexter Morgan novel series or Thomas Harris' Red Dragon trilogy. dark fic is not, and never will be, the promotion, fetishisation and romanticisation of rape, incest, and pedophilia. the usage of "dark fic" within those circles is merely to avoid accountability and to avoid any and all criticism.

konigsblog thinks that they cannot be held accountable, as they're writing fiction, but when you look at genuinely dark novels from across the spectrum, you can see that they're nothing like whatever abhorrent fiction that konigsblog write. let me give you some examples:

in the Red Dragon trilogy by Thomas Harris, Mason Verger (an incestuous pedophilic rapist) is never written to be seen as someone who is desirable or whose actions are anything but disgusting. Hannibal Lecter (a cannibalistic serial killer) even says this openly several times that Verger is, essentially, a piece of shit.

in American Psycho by Bret Easton Ellis, Patrick Bateman (a misogynistic, homophobic, racist serial killer who sexually assaults several women before killing them) is never written to be seen as someone who you want to be near or want to know. he is written as a depraved, disgusting, human being, and is treated accordingly - the novel is written from his POV, but Ellis makes it clear that his actions are VILE.

in Lolita by Vladimir Nabokov, the male lead (a pedophilic rapist) is routinely written in a way of which makes audiences DESPISE him and his actions as much as they do his ideology and his thought processes surrounding a child. Nabokov makes it clear that rape and pedophilia are something that should be condemned and can NEVER be something romantic or appealing in the slightest. (side note: Nabokov was a piece of shit who wanted Russia to colonise Ukraine, so he wasn't exactly a good guy anyway)

in The 120 Days of Sodom, Marquis De Sade makes it clear that the rapists and pedophiles within the novel are awful people and he makes it explicit in their actions as well as the way of which they speak; you are not supposed to side with them, or to feel anything except disgust and horror that someone can commit such atrocious acts without having a second thought. the rape scenes are written to PURPOSEFULLY make you (the reader) feel disgust and to feel hatred for these characters.

do you see the difference?

dark novels surrounding topics such as pedophilia, rape and incest are written in a way of which does NOT condone these actions and does NOT treat them as desirable or as material used for one to masturbate to. whereas what konigsblog writes is explicitly written to be the opposite - its written to be desirable, to be something that you (the reader) should find attractive and WANT, it's written for you to masturbate to.

how abhorrent can you be that you would sit there and try to condone such vile and depraved writings? how apathetic towards your fellow man can you be to engage with this?

and there's no point in saying "Well, don't like, don't read" - no. because this is genuinely harmful material of which promotes and fetishises the most abhorrent and morally bankrupt acts known to mankind. this is genuinely harmful, its not a kink that people aren't into and is tagged properly (bc konigsblog RARELY tags accordingly), it is taking the WORST thing that can happen to somebody and turning it into pornography.

if you engage with or even support konigsblog, you do not support or care for rape, incest and abuse survivors - you do not. and don't try and pretend that you do. so many survivors routinely, openly and honestly, talk about how rape pornography, especially in fanfiction circles, is abhorrent and should NEVER be celebrated, engaged with, or supported - and its a travesty that we have to keep doing it and we have to keep saying "no, stop it, this is harmful".

if konigsblog continues to produce these works, and continues to improperly tag and continues to expose these themes as desirable and attempts to normalise this - it is going to hurt people. it is going to cause someone to actually get hurt.

I'm gonna tag a couple of mutuals in this, if only so that they can add their 2 pennies as well; @mockerycrow @kivino

[lettucedloophole]

Okay, so like, when people say "AMAB people are male socialized growing up," they're saying that generally speaking AMAB people are sorted into the Boy category and have Boy expectations placed upon them. Sometimes individuals may feel that they were socialized the opposite way instead for any number of reasons, and some feel they got a mix of both, or some other thing. Either way, "male socialization" and "female socialization" - the expectation to be a Boy and a Girl - is still a thing that exists. When I was not allowed to play with girl's toys as a kid, that was male socialization. It sucked! It wasn't good! It didn't make me a boy or program me to be a rapist like TERFs say it did, but it's a thing that happened, and that happened to others.

You bring up not classifying things by intent. I would personally argue, just speaking for myself, that's the more important thing for describing these phenomena, but even if we are focusing on what was absorbed, many trans wo/men grow up do end up repressing these parts of themselves and only rediscover them later, or are aware it sucks but tries to find space for themselves in the Boy category. That's still a significant segment of the transfem population that went through the same process the OP was describing where Boyism was internalized. And no one, other than TERFs, is saying that if a trans woman did internalize Boyism, that makes her evil, because my side of this discourse does not generally believe that Boy=Evil in the first place. Trans men can openly talk about many of them forced themselves to act like women because of the extreme demands placed upon them to do so because "woman" is not seen as The Oppressor, whereas if I'm like "I wanted to play with Barbies as a kid but I wasn't allowed to so I got real into the brands I had access to" I'm apparently sucking up to TERFs.

Again, not everyone experiences socialization the same way, individual experiences are important and you may feel you never once went through anything like that, but "male socialization" is a phrase for when that does happen, although also again, I personally prefer to use the socialization label for the expectations themselves more, and that's much more expansive.

i get what you're saying about socialization, the issue isn't that what you mean by male socialization hasn't been explained enough, it's an issue of if that's the most appropriate way to describe that process. regardless of the intent of some people, what i believe is a minority, i think when most people say trans women are male socialized they mean it in the terfy way, including trans people. i understand that one guy was trying to not seem that way, but still furthered a narrow view of trans women's upbringings. perhaps his posts would've been better if he left out the part that implied trans women as a whole don't experience female socialization pretransition (and had he not... kinda just flipped out on katra). most of what i was expressing was a disagreement on how the conversation was taking place, though i touched on my own skepticism of this amab=male socialization classification in my questions

i don't think you're sucking up to terfs, but i do think it was weird that you defended that guy and misrepresented what katra was saying and act like transmisogyny is not a prevalent issue in tme trans ppl. like in this ask where you say only terfs believe these things, respectfully i do not believe that is true...

i agree though that transfems who internalized that Boyism and tried to live within it, didn't know they were transfem or whatever til much later on are valid. you could describe me as a female-socialized transmasc nb who didn't have any early experience of transness or gnc-ity, so i'm not coming for anyone based on that.

as for what i think on socialization specifically, i'm unsure of the usefulness of your definition of male socialization when most people disagree with what socialization means, and i'm not reallyy convinced that there's an objective definition of male or female socialization historically you can fall back on to say how other people define it (like katra) is wrong. i think changing the name of male socialization as you define it to amab socialization would provide a bit of clarity for people who misinterpret the term and solve some of the issues people (fairly) have with it. more than that though, i wish my smart mutual had not deleted her post where she talked about their issues with gendered socialization being described in such binary terms because i think this conversation opened me up to the pitfalls of relying on binaries to discuss complex social processes. it lacks specificity and different people internalize different things, so it may be worth considering that male/female socialization are not as useful as terms as something like gendered socialization, patriarchal socialization, and cisnormative socialization, for example.

one conundrum that has also made me think this is that when a trans woman does something like sexual harrassment that's associated with being male, it's described as being because of male socialization (not by you but other ppl). but if a cis woman does the same, what is it then? she's still not considered "male socialized" but she was socialized under patriarchy (& often has other privileges but this isn't about that) like that trans woman, which was likely a factor in that behaviour. that's to say... i think talking about socialization as binary like this can fail to account for how gendered socialization can manifest in different ways. the cis woman was socialized to accept sexual harassment rather than distribute it, but (apart from her other privileges) she internalized gender in an unexpected manner.

another reason is that, it seems to me that people don't talk about other groups quite the same way. i haven't seen as many discussions of black or white socialization as i have racial socialization. i wonder if other fields have maybe already found out the pitfalls of binary specificity, or perhaps the difficulty is specific to gender.

[mithliya]

yeah that totally makes sense, that’s more what I was getting at that the net result is less overt misogyny since it’s not as acceptable. I think I’m a little confused on what you mean by society vs culture? also hope you are well and thanks for calling out the racists, I’m sorry you’re dealing with gross rude people ://

when i differentiate society & culture, im arguing that typically differences in levels of misogyny are not due to cultural differences but rather societal development in recent history. for example, christian cultures (such as western europe’s) also allowed marital rape, made exceptions for rapists who marry their victims (& this is still allowed in some parts of the west), allow child marriages (& in many places that is still allowed), did not allow women to have any autonomy ie no bank accounts no ability to join the workforce no ability to get into higher education etc. these are just a few examples off the top of my head. but for this reason, i reject the argument that western cultures are simply less misogynistic whereas eastern cultures are simply more misogynistic.

instead, i believe that western societies were under significantly better conditions which then allowed them to push for more social progress whereas many eastern cultures were being colonised, enslaved, exploited, relentlessly bombed, etc and some are still facing such a reality today. as a result, while western europeans & (US) americans & canadians & australians (& insert other colonial populations here) were able to socially progress due to being in ideal economic conditions & due to them not being actively exploited & destabilised by foreign nations, other parts of the world have been stuck in poverty and/or perpetual wars and/or under extreme dictatorships which have been empowered by the west. i reject the idea that i come from a “more misogynistic culture” & i reject the idea that westerners come from “less misogynistic cultures”, bc i dont think the actual difference in social progress is because of one culture being simply more misogynistic than another. as an example, you can look at many of the most extreme examples of misogyny such as what u can find in iran & afghanistan, then look at how they were living in the 50s or 60s. did their culture magically change since then? no, but the conditions of their nations changed and that was in part influenced by western interference which then empowered extremely misogynistic islamist parties which then resulted in them going backwards socially rather than progressing forwards.

thats what i mean: social progress being further in the west isn’t a reflection of western cultures being less misogynistic, it’s a reflection of their populations being in better conditions than other parts of the world.

[johannestevans]

an interesting aspect of criminal minds is how constantly and continuously other people - especially women - acknowledge that reid is a sexually appealing target for men to enact sexual violence on / toward

men in cop shows will irregularly acknowledge less masculine men's sexual appeal as a kind of implicit threat of sexual violence and also as a way to show/display how dominant/masculine they are themselves

like derek hanging a rape whistle around reid's neck is a joke at reid's expense, but that "playful" emasculation is as much about his own status as an alpha male and his position in the pecking order as it is about reid

when women acknowledge it or make jokes about it, like garcia saying that if the two of them go to prison reid is going to be someone's bitch, she's not positioning herself as dominant to reid

she's making a joke about what's a realistic state of affairs

yes, it's a rape joke told at reid's expense, but like. it's also just dark humour at what garcia knows is the REALITY of his situation, and how appealing he is to other men as a target to victimize bc of his relative effeminacy and his prettiness

and i entirely understand some people's disdain for the obsession w reid bc like, yeah, part of the reason fans find him so appealing is bc he's so thin and white, and that's why other characters are often demonised to further show him as a perfect and desirable victim

esp in contrast to morgan as a Black man and to the diff women in the series

but for a show to like. acknowledge a man as someone who'd be a rapist's first target, including over the women in the room, not necessarily by gay men but just bc of a combo of traits is. SO MUCH to me

reid frequently refers to his intellect as the reason that he got bullied, but it's about that and his autistic traits in combination w like... not just a skinny, gangling frame and big eyes and pale skin and floppy hair and his dated, soft clothes, but also just

his gender is nerd. there's a queerness to him. it's partly MGG himself and partly the way MGG plays him, but reid comes off as queer even to straight people - they don't know if he's a closeted trans woman or a bisexual or just a male rape victim

but they know he's queer.

they know he's not A Cis Straight Man, they know that he's doing gender Wrong and Badly

and for this, a lot of people meet him - esp in the hypermasculine environs of law enforcement and also prisons etc - and immediately want to punish his gender transgressions

and they want to punish those transgressions specifically with sexual and/or drawn-out intimate violence

just like they do to real-life gay boys and transfems and any other man or "man" who seems too queer to them

and god esp from a cop show like. so many cop shows are about these dynamics but don't actually acknowledge them in most episodes bc it's icky and unpleasant bc why would any good rapist (eg your average cop) want to rape a man

whereas for all its many many MANY flaws, it's so present in criminal minds from the get-go, and to have it in a regular, recurring char from the start and to have it constantly acknowledged is part of why this show is such catnip to me

[horizon-verizon]

The fact that we got Alicole angry hate sex but not Daemyra even though that was Alicent’s own grandson, used his corpse for propaganda, and her children were still grieving. Like c’mon Rhaenyra, even Jaehaerys’ own family dgaf about him and you’re fighting your senior citizen ahh husband over a silly misunderstanding.

Other than this post I wrote, some might say that this just shows how awesomely "moral" Rhaenyra is in comparison to the greens/alicent, which proves she is much more fit to rule. I say even bk!rhaenyra showed comparatively little actions that really should make people worry over her becoming some rabid evil Queen the way Aegon was shaping up to become (you know...the literal rapist/perosn who doesn't care abt personal boundaries of servant girls/overall not at all interested in ANY responsibilities of rule.....whereas Rhaenrya ruled Dragosntone for years with nary a true complaint against her?)

Thus, the show is doing what these persons on Twitter says, which is setting an irresponsible moral double standard for women vs men UNDER THE CONTEXT that canon!Rhaenyra was quite different:

[genericpuff]

My least favorite part about Lore Olympus is how they handled be loved characters in the myths like Demeter and Apollo. Both were powerful and highly respected Gods who weren't always the best, but had good intentions.

But Demeter is meant to be this controlling and emotional abusive mother when the most she did in the myths was not trust men? Like it's bit her fault she was just Zeus' side chick and she didn't want her daughter to have the same fate, but with that dude's brother.

Apollo was anything but a rapist. Sure he was not the best with love, but he mostly rolled unlucky with either people who didn't love him or people who died young. And Rachel makes him out to be some villain bad guy who doesn't understand boundaries instead of some god who represents ignorance. Greek mythology was MADE to explain why things happen the way they do and to explain human error, like Zeus having the human error of not keeping his dick in his pants.

BUT ZEUS CAN BE MADE MORE SYMPATHETIC, YET TWO GODS WHO WERE ALREADY SYMPATHETIC CAN'T BE?

honestly I've mentioned it in other discussions, but RS seems to just like... have a huge issue with women wanting to be anything other than a trophy wife.

Minthe doesn't want to "settle down" with Hades even though that was never her intention in the relationship and Hades is the one pushing the boundaries of the relationship? She's a gold digger taking advantage of a King and doesn't deserve to be loved.

Demeter wants to become Queen without the need for a husband and fights for the votes needed to be elected even though not a single other ruler has had to campaign for their position? She's just "jealous" of her daughter for becoming Queen through marriage and "salty" at Zeus and Hades and Poseidon because they're all rulers and she isn't.

As for characters like Apollo, they're always framed as villainous or manipulative (or outright abusive) when it's with the intent of making Hades look better. They never did this with characters like Hermes or Hephaestus because they were never interested in Persephone, but Apollo and Ares are both depicted as idiotic scumbags for the sole purpose of making Hades look like the 'better option' for Persephone. When you remove Apollo and Ares from the narrative though, and purely observe Hades based on his actions, Hades... isn't good for anyone, either. It's just really easy to make Guy A look good when Guy B is a r*pist. It's the lowest possible bar.

Basically so many characters are demonized far from their original versions for the sole purpose of pushing Persephone and Hades together, because RS doesn't know how to write a real story with real character progression. She's too afraid to give Persephone and Hades legitimate, deeply-rooted flaws or traits that would have to be challenged by the narrative in any way, so instead they're these boring self-insert projections that need everyone else to be on their worst behavior to make them look better. It takes effort to write main ship characters with real depth, whereas it takes zero effort to just make every character outside of the main ship an asshole to make the main ship characters look more redeeming by comparison.

[trans-wojak]

Cool so if misandrist anon gets to be a hateful bitch to all men do i get my get out of jail free misogynist card? I've been sexually harrassed as a 10 year old by both, but men were forced to apologize to me by other men and women, while if i was harassed by women, they thought they did absolutely nothing wrong even though i felt way more violated. I was only ever groped by women in my whole entire life. It heavily affected how my sexual orientation manifests (my attraction to women can be uncomfortable because of fear of them breaching my boundaries and treating it as an innocent joke). Men are always friendly and speak kindly to me at work but women keep taking out their anger from home at me. My boss is completely ostracised by women at work because she (yes, my boss is a woman! And her boss is a woman too!) reminds them of company policies when they get ridiculous with their demands, like wanting to have double break time compared to other departments and do no extra work to make up for it. We have one other man in the department and they keep emotionally manipulating him into working second shift in the evenings week after week because they don't want to do it, despite it being literally part of their job to be on rotation for the second shift (he shouldn't be doing this because it breaks worker safety laws).

Radfems are so fucking stupid it's unreal

Literally, like I’m technically bisexual but I have a preference for men. But I also find it’s just too hard to date women, I always constantly got put down for the same behaviours THEY do (being open about attraction and talking openly about sex). One time when I lived in shared housing, it was predominantly with women and we had music videos playing. A chick appeared wearing short shorts and I said “hell yeah” - I immediately got attacked by the girls in the room, along with my ex girlfriend trying to tell me I don’t need to be a womaniser to “act like a cis man” to be a man. While those same women would sit around discussing in detail how much they love big cocks, eating ass and licking out pussy.

I’ve been groped by a woman before, and when I tried to tell people in the friend group they told me it was my own fault for not speaking up when it happened and she didn’t really mean it. But if a man did that, they would have called him a violent rapist. Like, I wasn’t even trying to get her to be “cancelled” I’m pretty sure some of it was a misunderstanding cause I went into freeze mode but when I told her about it, she blew me off and tried to say if I don’t speak up it’s my own fault.

Also, whenever I rejected sexual advances from ex girlfriends cause I wasn’t in the mood they would start accusing me of not thinking they’re pretty/hot and I’m like no I just don’t feel like it. I wasn’t given any gentle affection, it always was assumed I wanted sexual intercourse if I was affectionate when really I just wanted to cuddle.

I swear some women will use the fact they have kids to get out of doing their part at work. It’s one thing for people to be courteous and help out but to basically force others to take all the “bad” shifts is so frustrating. Especially when these days, both parents work. And women are allowed to be verbally aggressive and no one thinks is wrong, but if a guy does it everyone acts like it’s the same as physical violence. Whereas for me, I see it the same way. At the share house, one of the women and me got into an argument. She started yelling, screaming and throwing things. I told her let’s stop please, this is scaring me. She started laughing at me and got even MORE aggressive. Like I had to threaten to call the police to get her to stop.

I try very hard to be conscious, I’m on the spectrum and at times I don’t realise the volume of my voice. Especially when I feel strong emotions. When women have told me it’s making them uncomfortable, I ask why (cause I don’t realise my voice volume) and they accuse me of pretending to not know.

Being an autistic man is harder than an autistic woman. Autistic women are seen as cute, quirky and shown sympathy for mishaps in social interactions. People assume the best intentions from them. But autistic men are seen as creepy and full of ill motives. My life was easier when I was a girl cause no one treated me with all these rigid boxes. Now I’m treated as a fucking creep automatically.

I see women as people and people can be crappy. They aren’t special. They shouldn’t be granted special treatment just for being a woman.

[heir-less]

How do you know that William doesn’t have therapy? He seems like a good communicator so he probably just talks to Kate and his family! I don’t believe the anger issues for one second because the only time we have seen him angry is the paparazzi video from a couple of years ago and that was on behalf of his family! It’s actually disgusting that the media are trying to portray him as this because he is only ever gentle with Kate and their children! If he was like this you would notice the aggressiveness in their children whereas they are so loving/caring

I know this because William has said it himself, Harry has said it himself, and it has been confirmed that William has never been to therapy and he was open about it during Heads Together with Kate and William stating that they didn't "need" it as opposed to Harry. It's not a private thing that he doesn't say and it's left ambiguous, he has said that he's never been, the furthest thing he's done is be sort of introspective and talk about his experiences working in the military and losing his mother.

In one of the best interviews he's ever done (I'm being genuine here, it's really good) he said this to British GQ:

No I have not talked to a specialist or anyone clinical, but I have friends who are good listeners, and, on grief, I find talking about my mother and keeping her memory alive very important. I find it therapeutic to talk about her, and to talk about how I feel. SOURCE

It should be noted that I am not talking about grief. If William finds himself more content to talk with friends and family over a therapist, that is his prerogative. What I'm talking about is his alleged anger issues, which could be a symptom of his grief. However, the two are different, grief is a very normal and natural emotion.

Having anger issues and being violent and verbally aggressive with people is not normal and it actual professional intervention. These are all assumptions I'm making based on how the palace and other entities like the media portray William. I'm not diagnosing him with anything, but at some point, you gotta call a spade a spade.

I honestly believe that if William were a celebrity and not a royal people would be more concerned about his well-being. especially when juxtaposed with Harry's own experiences. A lot of the trauma Harry has is shared with William.

Also, I know I harp on it, but Kate is not a mental health professional. Will can communicate and talk to her, which is obviously awesome and good, but that doesn't compensate for professional help. I don't know why Kate is always assigned the role of William's carer in the media. What about her mental health? Why should William rely on Kate so much when the media is stirring things up about this dynamic and writing shitty articles about how it's caused them to get into fights? We know that royals are swayed enough by the media to cut people off and become distrustful of others.

TW ABUSE AND SA UNDER THE CUT

Also, I don't think William abuses his children or something, but the "we would be able to tell" line of thinking is very narrow.

There are plenty of abusers who were known to be gentle/charismatic/nice in public. That's usually how they convince people to not believe their victims. Take someone like Bill Cosby, who was portrayed as very a very straight-laced, father-figure for decades while being a serial rapist and abuser. Again, I am not calling William Bill Cosby, I'm just making a point about how abusers usually don't come across as pieces of shit on the surface.

[tired-fandom-ndn]

I've never under stood how people can get into Incest the Show and then be so violently anti-incest. Like, I get not personally being into incest and wanting to focus on other things, but to be so hostile towards the incest enjoyers?

There's this one anime I'm into that doesn't have canon incest exactly, but does have incest jokes, like, every other episode. And most of the Western fandom is also violently against the insect ships.

It's always funny whenever a new episode airs and has an incest joke in it. Everyone in the tags always acts so aghast that their precious, wholesome anime would ever dare to joke about such a horrible thing as incest, completely forgetting that last week they also caught the vapours over a different incest joke.

Then again, that fandom also acts horrified over even a vanilla sex joke, so.

That said, I somehow feel that the freaking out over incest in IASIP is worse than in my beloved anime? At least the characters in the aforementioned anime have some amount of... morals, I suppose, and likeability unlike the IASIP cast. Like, despite the jokes, the characters in that anime genuinely would be against incest, whereas in IASIP they would only pretend that they were?

Like, to get into a show where anything goes? Where the characters canonically do any horrible thing you can think of, only to get mad when the fans explore that anything? Fuck.

Uh, sorry for the essay. This ended up longer than I intended.

[context]

YEAH IT'S FUCKING WILD. It's like watching House of the Dragon and then going on tumblr to complain about the main characters being related?? Which I have unfortunately seen.

The antis in IASIP are so wild to me because, to people who have not watched any of this show, I cannot express enough how much this show straddles the line between the incest being a joke and Dee and Dennis actually fucking in canon.The plausible deniability here is PAPER THIN. Mac or Charlie could walk in on them fucking over the bar counter in the next episode and it would be 100% in canon.

And this is not subtle! Like at all! And I just cannot comprehend being able to enjoy this show, where slurs are tossed around constantly and at least one character is a canonical serial rapist, and then geting pissed off about people shipping the twins who constantly talk about fucking each other.

[venusofvolterra]

Hi! I'm a big simp for Felix, and I love how you paint him as a art enjoyer. So... As a librarian i have a very important question: what does Felix think of literature? What is the literary movement he enjoys the most? What genre does he like to read in his free time? And do you think he has a favorite book?

Yes! I love art enjoyer Felix! I do think it would be virtually impossible for him not to be given who he’s around and where he’s lived most of his human life and undead life.

That said, I think he differs from Demetri in his enjoyment of art because Demetri likes to really dissect art, especially literature whereas Felix is much more of a “I just think it’s neat!” Kind of enjoyer.

I do think Felix, unlike Demetri is much more interested in the macabre when it comes to art. Demetri is very into the art and aesthetic but Felix likes the darker aspects of art and literature.

I have a little ficlet about him being a Artemisia Gentileschi fan here. She’s a painter notorious for her depictions of biblical and mythological scenes — particularly Judith slaying Holofernes. Within this painting we see Judith (who Artemisia depicts as herself) slaying her rapist, Holofernes (who she paints as her real rapist).

That being said I think his favorite literary genres include things such as Greek Tragedy, Shakespearean Tragedy, True Crime, and Gothic lit. He’s a big Poe fan for one. He’s also quite the fan of things like the Grimm fairytales.

As it pertains to gothic literature, I think he just finds it entertaining especially. He thinks stories like Dracula and Carmilla are fun because they’re inaccurate and yet have so much to say about humans. Unlike some of the other Volturi, he’s very curious about human life and thinks he has a lot to learn from them.

Something I think that drives these is that he has a very strong sense of justice. I also think he’s fascinated by the psychology behind some of these works — particularly if it has some kind of spiritual or religious connotation. I think he also finds beauty in peoples ability to take back their own narratives.

What I’m saying is that Felix is hella goth. Like, he definitely listens to the Bauhaus.