#'unintentional queerbaiting' thats just this

[creekfiend]

there's a doylist version of that "no look I don't ""ship"" this I just Understand that It Happened" phenomenon that I actually get a lot more often where you're like... "no listen I don't ""ship"" this I just recognize that the narrative being constructed would have been stronger for it, thematically, and the fact that whoever made this media doesn't seem to understand this makes me question how well they even know what kind of story they are telling"

ITS SO PAINFUL

[asherlockstudy]

Hii, i saw you answering an ask from an anon, the one where you said that your uncomfortable with their more "sexuall" jokes becuse you feel it's unfair to their wives? And the only reson you sport them is becuse you think they had feelings for each other long befor they got married, and if it wasn't for that then they would be plan cheaters… that kind'a made me.. sad. of course you can have your opinion and felings about them(i also don't really love the sexuall jokes. it's not really my humer, and it's not why i can't stop fixating on them and their story, i just love the connection and the love they have for each other, and the sincere moments that are unintentional, alot more..) but i think you'r being a bit harsh on them, i mean IF they were actually in a romantic relationship, then they seeme to have figured out that whole arengment with their wives, and everyone is happy.. and if they were just ,doing it for jokes and this bit that has been going on for so long, then they seeme to have that figured out as will, and they know if their wives are comfortable with that type of jokes or not. I just don't think it's fair to think that about them and limit them to that. and i think thats kind of the problem with thinking this way, and going with it( that they are actually together and just not telling us about it, as much as i've would LOVE to indulge in that..) becuse alot of things star to feel ingenue and deceptive, and i think their love, and jus ..wholesomeness, that we see alot more in like ear biscuits, where their just alot more laid back and just being themselves and being honest, and not more in their performing, and audience pleasing mode, like in gmm. ( for example, the biscuit about link's b day, i mean that was so fucking cute.. rhett meeting link's friends, and the possessiveness that he has for link, that manifests itself in so many different ways, and becuse it hurts rhett's ego to acknowledge that bit of jealousy that is so obvious on his face😂, it just comes out in little digs or just reminding link that, hay i know you more than them all combined. whenever link mentions hanging out with other people. And in this one, it was the way rhett was basically saying, even your friends know i'm different, and he started unconsciously listing why "i'm your best friend" " i know you so will" "we've been friends for forty years" "you've know them for what, a year, two years?"… Like he just had to basically say no matter how many new friends you have, i'm always number one😣and there is soo many other instances.. it's heartwarming. and it makes me want to slap link and say, hay, don't you see how jealous you'r making you'r boy, stop it😭… Sorry i got sidetracked..) i just think it deserves to be highlighted more, whether we think it's platonik or romantic..

It’s a little funny that when I answered said previous ask, I ended it by saying “I hope I am not seeing their relationship in rose tinted glasses” and yet you felt I was too harsh on them 😅 Amazing how differently people can perceive things.

Anyway, everything I said there works based on the conviction that there is something “more” and serious happening between them. It doesn’t apply in case they are just platonic friends or haven’t acted on their romantic feelings. Of course I do believe their friendship is real and deep and sweet. And that they have a right to be silly and make stupid adult jokes like bros if that’s all there is to it. (Except they make adult jokes but they are not bro adult jokes…)

The bottomline is still that I do not believe this is the case, so I don’t have much to add here. Even though you push yourself to entertain the possibility as an extemely unlikely one, it’s clear you mostly think I am being harsh / unfair to them exactly because I misinterpret everything they do based on my false conviction that they have an affair. But again what I said does not apply in the case they don’t have an affair (although it still makes them queerbaiters), except the problem - I can’t help it - is that I still feel strongly that they do. So I don’t have anything else to say on this because at the moment I can not change the entirety of my belief and we are on significantly different places regarding this matter. From my side, compared to how I think about this, I feel like your reasoning has too much Disney effect in it. For example, thinking “they can’t be doing this because that would mean they were liars or x bad thing all this time”. To me that’s Disney reasoning and, above all, the very optimistic faith that if they are truly in an affair surely they have made it work in a way that everybody (who? Their wives? Their children? Their parents?) is genuinely happy with it? I am sorry to say but to me this sounds like Disney and Dreamworks together. I love Rhett and Link dearly for keeping me company with their show in difficult times and I truly want whatever is best for them but I do consider them very flawed people, unfortunately potentially very capable of things you fear (lying, hiding stuff, misleading, putting themselves and each other above family etc).

[playingonedchess]

actually saw an essay someoned written for uni and posted on ao3 about queerbaiting in ace attorney (in regards to narimitsu), like theyd cited sources and everything, but it was sort of a bit rubbish i thought where it was coming from. maybe i cant really comment not being from the right group to have a stake in the queerbaiting thing, and nothing they said was really off, it just seemed an odd way to approach it? like not only did they get the idea of shipping narimitsu completely wrong, like they literally just mentioned two things that were like textually in context really not romantic and went like cause of this (common shallow fandom misinterpretation) people are like thats totally romantic, like even i who already ships them wasnt remotely sold on that explanation they used, as well as on why they thought peopled ship them. and then they go on about unintentional subtext/ alternate readings in a way thats maybe just not how i personally see it. but they totally missed out on mentioning fanservice at all when talking about queer baiting, and went on like, obviously it 'should' be made canon but it isnt cause theyre too scared of backlash or couldnt fit it in or whatever reason, just not considering that it doesnt actually have to be, cause its an interpretation, and they were like, treating a video game way too much like a form of activism? like they can have different priorities for this fictional story and that doesnt have to be something theyd see as important just cause it would be representation or enough fans want it. like even in this case where from some of the interviews about the first 3 the creaters were like people ship them oh cool, it doesnt mean they have to even want to make it canon instead of just an interpretation they thinks fine. and like i even think itd be good if it was canon and would work and even be a possibility and stuff but i think that cause their relationship and fictional character story i think could work that way and i enjoy it, its a bit weird to think its like owed to be that way though? like i really dont think its that deep to be relevent to actual real world social issues and is actually about the direction for the fictional story?

[edsbev]

MISSED U SO MUCH BELL CAN WE HESR SOME THOUGJTS ?

im guessing thoughts on the s2 trailer and to be honest with u there are very little thoughts in my head but i'll say that

1) this season actually looks like it could be a lot of fun

2) the jjpopekie trio looks rlly cute but short-lived. i think john b and sarah will join them pretty early in the season, but thats not too bad bc i know the john b/sarah scenes will be a snooze for me so it'll be nice seeing them as a group

3) the jjkie in the trailer kinda just seems like bait to me, like they threw in a couple scenes to appease that fanbase, but i'm still a lil worried they might go in that direction toward the end of the season. they might develop their friendship more tho which'll be nice

4) im SUPER excited for pope this season. i have a feeling he'll drive most of the jjpopekie plot, and will probably be a main plot driver with john b (hoping they won't disappoint me)

5) still looks like kie is not getting her own storyline :/

6) jjpope will continue to be unintentional queerbait <3

[dashiellqvverty]

like i joke and i jest about how i love being queerbaited but like. what it’s really about is that so often the gay stories and characters that do exist are just incredibly boring!! like 5 seasons or 6,000 years of pining or whatever, whether it’s deliberate bait or straight writers unintentionally writing a friendship that comes off as romantic (and i do think there’s a discernible difference, although sometimes (often) unintentional relationships eventually become deliberate bait), is almost always going to be more compelling and enjoyable for me than half-written recurring characters who feel like they exist just to appease gay audiences and don’t have any substance to their relationships. 

and obviously the ideal situation is to get to a point where gay relationships can have all the complex narratives that straight couples have in tv and movies like i would love 6 seasons of will-they-wont-they on a sitcom with gay characters or an epic slow burn romance or something!! but you don’t generally get that with canon gay characters and that sucks and sometimes it is just more fun for me to imagine steve & buckys story as a romance than to sit through something because it has a gay person in it and thats not progressive or healthy but the stories that dont get told almost always have so much more substance than the ones that do

[mixedsnape]

Also, i dont want to give much power here to jkr, she HAS said that normie racism doesnt exsist in the wizarding world (which is fucking ridiculous and wouldnt fucking work irl but yknow, whatever) so if you wanted to pretend what jkr says matters, then theres that.

But ALSO, because i guess explaining shitty behavior from fictional characters is my schtick now, i really do believe that pansy has no real ideology. She copies whatever her parents/peers say/believe (being a follower is one of her only real personality trait).

I think that pansy says shit she knows will get a reaction because thats now she knows to get what she wants. Shes wants dracos attention? She makes fun of the people he doesnt like and loudly agrees with him and hangs off him. She wants to make someone she doesnt like upset/fuck up? She makes fun of them, taunts them loudly and in whatever way she knows will work. I have not only met people like this, i have been a person like this.

Thats not to say she shouldnt like, have consequences for doing bad things, but saying something bad and being someone bad are two different things. If i accidently say something misogynistic, that doesnt make me a misogynist, it means i said something bad without thinking. Queerbaiting, unintentional or not, is homophobic, but that doesn't make the actors or even the writers homophobic. Just dicks.

And pansy isnt... racist. Shes just a dick.

Semi... controversial opinion. But i dont think pansy parkinson is racist. I think shes a bit of a bitch and was written to be just. The worst. 2 dimensional mean girl possible, but shes not racist.

The scene that people bring up when talking about her is when she taunts angelina about her hair, saying it looks like worms. Honestly, while a racist thing to Say, i dont think its indicative of her personal feelings on black people as a whole. Other than that, shes just Wizarding Racist, which like, isnt good, but i dont think its the same. (Though having all but one of the black characters she COULD interact with being gryfindors/not purebloods sure doesnt help).

More than anything, because i mostly see people bring this up in her relation to hermione (epsecially poc hermione), i think its silly to make that distinction because of one line. Like, if you can accept dramione or drarry or any other Bitchy Bully Villain/Nice Friendly Hero (esp when the good guy is widely headcanoned as black/poc), then pansy/hermione isnt any different. I could totally hear draco making that same comment to angelina, he just never did on screen.

Pansy was written to be an irridemable horrible person, but jkr did that by making her a bitchy mean girl who says whatever she things will get to someone with maybe 2 scenes a book and never actually affects anything except like once. Its not unreasonable that people would see her an go Its Free Real Estate, the same way they did with blaise and theo.

[heckstor]

About the video on the masterpiece channel of amanda and martin talking about John and Mary (AND QUEERBAIT SUBTEXT)

Yes they loved eachother so much that: •John Didnt talk to her for monthes while she was pregnant •John talked to another woman behind her back •She didnt let him have a say in naming their child •Mary attempted to kill his best friend •John auggested divorce “is it to late for a divorce” (70% sure he was joking though) •Mary lied to him about her identity HE didnt even know her real name till S4 •She lied to him about everything John didnt even know who she really was •John forgave sherlock a few days after he returned it took him MONTHES to even talk to Mary (AGAIN WHO WAS PREGNANT WITH HIS CHILD) •Wiggins Deduction “You keep your shirts folded and ready to pack” •John takes a bicycle to work instead of riding in the car with mary when they work at the SAME PLACE I actually came to like Mary after she sacrificed herself for sherlock because i saw she wasent completely selfish im just saying,,, if john was happy in that relationship and content he wouldn’t have cheated “I wanted more i still do.” Mary wanted Domesticity i believe she did love john but her past caught up with her and shes gone now, she couldn’t have a normal life. Why Us Viewers Think John Loved Sherlock And why Sherlock Loved John (AKA:The Most obvious Gay subtext in the show): •Sherlock leaves his best friends wedding early •Sherlock goes back to hard drugs after Mary and John Get hitched •John constantly denies being with sherlock (Why does it bother his so much what people think) •Sherlock never corrects people who assume they’re together •That entire convo john had with Irene JOHN: “I don’t know about Sherlock, but im not gay” IRENE: “well i am, look at us both.” JOHN : *defeated sigh* •Molly to sherlock: “You look sad when you think he can’t see you." •ASIP why does john ask if he has a boyfriend and then lick his lips why does john care? •MRS HUDSON THOUGHT THEY WERE TOGETHER SHE LIVED WITH THEM FOR 2 years "So soon after sherlock?" •why does moriarty say "Heartbreak" in sherlocks mind palace, Who is he heartbroken over? •John calls his relationship with marry "moving on" from sherlock •sherlock restarts his heart when john is in danger •Sherlock is rude and petty around Johns girlfriends •Johns previous relationships failed because he put sherlock before them •Janine saying "i know what kind of man you are, but we could've been friends." •JOHN: "A date, its when to people go out and have fun." SHERLOCK: "thats what i was suggesting." •John talking to Ella and saying there was something he never said but it cant be that he was his best friend because he had said that already •the tarmac scene "Sherlock is a girl's name" it that really what he was going to say? •Sherlock confiscates johns laptop when he looks at naked women on it Anyway i know that the show is queerbait but i cant see how these things were unintentional. please feel free to argue with me or add to my lists! id like to have a discussion about it.

[heteroflexiblecastiel]

been having some thoughts about queerbaiting? like how people use the word and what it really means in tv today.. honestly the term “queerbaiting” is kinda loaded and imprecise and imho what people consider queerbaiting is more often than not unintentional. not to say its okay, or that it doesnt still count as queerbaiting, but its usually not a Marketing Ploy as such. queer audiences honestly arent that much of a draw and there are better ways to appeal to straight liberals. much more often its simply straight writers, producers, and actors getting in over their heads and then reacting badly to criticism.

most queerbaiting takes the form of simple jokes that straight people think nothing of, but that send signals (intentional or not) to gay viewers. for example, putting two male characters in an unexpected pseudo-sexual situation, such as one falling on top of another and their faces getting very close; the camera lingers on their shocked expressions and the audience watches them stammer and act supremely awkward about it.

straight people eat that shit up! its super funny because Of Course these two characters arent like, gay for each other!! that would be truly absurd!!!! its just funny to watch them be put into Gay Situations with the ironclad knowledge, which only a straight person can possess, that their favorite characters could never actually be non-heterosexual.

the problem with this (besides uh. homophobia) is that its super ambiguous! since its no longer socially acceptable to be unambiguous about your homophobia, the new and improved version of gay jokes rely on implications and assumptions, rather than just calling somebody homophobic slurs. theres usually no actual, textual No Homo moment, just the suggestive situation followed by awkwardness from the characters involved.

the humor rises directly from the assumptions of the straight audience that 1) the situation is uncomfortable for these two obviously straight men on account of their obvious straightness, and 2) the ensuing awkwardness is only natural and a clear no-homo signal.

where straight audiences see a reassuring no-homo moment, though, gay audiences are very likely to see sexual tension. the scene itself would be an undeniable marker of UST if it were between a man and a woman, acted and shot and presented in exactly the same way.

for straight people, the gender of the characters involved is hugely important in determining whether a scene should be read as sexual/romantic or platonic/funny, but gay audiences dont have those kinds of restrictions since we already kinda blow those out of the water in our own lives. also we’re fucking starved for depictions of ourselves so we’re very attuned to subtext and subtlety, we dont require passionate onscreen lovemaking or even a single kiss to see romantic or sexual love between two characters.

we latch onto these kinds of scenes and they mean a lot to us even though they were never intended as anything but cheap gay jokes. so when a show makes these kinds of jokes consistently, constantly, ad fucking nauseum, there starts to be a split between gay and straight viewers. where straight audiences see two dudes living their lives and getting up to wacky hijinks, gay audiences see a fucking volcano of sexual tension just waiting to erupt.

and when it just continues to not erupt, season after season... thats when it becomes clear that: CONGRATULATIONS, YOUVE BEEN QUEERBAITED! the writers werent actually trying to build up a slow-burn, tender romance between two men who mean the world to each other and have a soul-deep bond that no love-interest-of-the-week ever seems to be able to come between. nope, they were literally just making gay jokes this whole fucking time. 

was it intentional? probably not. does that make it okay? absolutely not. is it homophobic as hell? you betcha :)