#'oots is the worst arc' who??

[shummthechumm]

bumble wc is just a piece of writing from this series that TRULY astounds me. like the characters do not acknoledge that shes a living person whatsoever once she becomes a "nuisance" (she is fat and a house pet). and on top of that, to have turtle tail turn her back on her as well??>?? because gray wing has it bad for her and so we have to exterminate the "obstacle" in the way of their straight romance???

like i expect gray wing and clear sky to be dicks but..why would TURTLE TAIL rationally allow her friend (who lived through the same abuse as she) be shunned away from the moor group??

its some of the most mean spirited shit in this entire series and it only exists as a plotline...for what reason??? cause "kittypets are bad you dont want to be a kittypet"?? its not like you remind us every fucking arc erin hunter. because we're supposed to like gray wing and they really wanted him to serve as an adoptive parent to turtle's litter?? like..what???

i dont even have a real point to this post i just want to express my confusion cause what even was the goal. it does nothing but make the entire cast abuse-enabling discriminatory assholes who are willing to send outsiders to easily preventable deaths. and we're supposed to agree with these jackasses??? ERIN HUNTER WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY TO YOUR ELEMENTARY SCHOOL AUDIENCE???

[inbarfink]

So although Order of the Stick is explicitly textually not an actual D&D game with actual players, it’s pretty cool how well Belkar’s character arc work not just as your usual ‘asshole character learns to care’ story but also mirrors the narrative of an asshole troll player learning to play the game seriously.

Like, while the whole Order kinda plays on standard D&D Class Stereotypes on some level, Belkar was always the one who played more into a Player Archetype than a Character Archetype. Maybe because that Player Archetype is often defined as lacking an interest in serious Roleplaying.

I mean, there’s nothing wrong with wanting to play a tabletop RPG just for dice-throwing and violence. The problem with That Kind Player is more when they attach themselves to a group that is otherwise interested in character and plot - and rather than finding some sort of compromise with the rest of the group or just looking for a new one more amicable to random violence - they keep hanging around while expressing just a total disinterest in the plot.

And caring for really nothing but scoring as many kills as possible, even if it gets in the way of the group’s general strategy...

And/or the DM trying to tell a compelling narrative...

And sometimes just being disruptive and causing conflict for the lols.

Also, Belkar has, like, objectively the worst build in the entire Order and he started out with no understanding of his Class outside the Two-Weapon Fighting. He really does act just like the One Guy who really wanted to play a double-wielding character because it’s badass, saw it’s a Free Ranger Feat and refused to read any of the other features or flavor text of the class.

So when he befriends Mr. Scruffy, it’s not just the ‘Mean Character Warms His Heart to a Cute Animal’ trope - it’s also figuratively about a player learning how to actually play and roleplay his Class and use other class features that are not directly related to just Stab the Enemies and They Fall Down.

And so much of his character arc is about the realization that he doesn’t really know himself. It is a character arc from an in-universe person but it also parallels a narrative of someone who is learning how to engage with his character for the first time and almost, like, retconning more connection between Belkar and his non-combat class features as the metaphorical Player becomes more invested in using them.

And it’s just… pretty interesting, in a stage where OOTS is really moving away from meta-D&D jokes - that the most meta-D&D part of the comic is the pretty-serious character arc of one of the main party members

And, I dunno…

[the-cookie-of-doom]

you've written a couple post-canon KimChay fics that I LOVE - cage me in and set me free was one of the first KimChay fics I read, actually, I loved Kim and Porsche's dynamic in it. And then there's Out of the Shadows, which I'd love if you got the inspo to return to at some point (all that tasty, tasty angst!). But we haven't gotten to see how you, personally, would write the actual reconciliation. It's something I struggle with; how do you forgive someone who hurt you and then doubled down? Even if Chay is generous enough to accept and understand Kim's reasoning, how does he trust him after that? What if Kim decides to do something shitty for the greater good again? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, whether it's general speculation or a bit of insight into the Out of the Shadows arc 👀

AHHH MY FRIEND!!! You're making me feel things ;_;

I do actually plan to come back to Out of the Shadows! Once I finish Technicality, since I've rediscovered the inspo for that, OotS is next on my list!

My personal feelings towards their potential reconciliation have changed a lot in the past year. When I originally watched the show, I had just gone through a really terrible breakup, my first one ever, and I was really sympathetic towards Chay. So I leaned in a little too hard to the "Kim is the worst person ever, how could he break this poor baby's heart."

One of the reasons I stalled on OotS is actually because it was the first longfic I started for this fandom, before I had really been exposed to all the various meta and interpretations, so I didn't have a solid feel for the characters and how I wanted to write them. I reached a point where the characterizations I started with, I no longer really agreed with, and then I had to figure out how to move forward with how I interpret the characters at this point.

Nowadays, I tend to think the reconciliation would go a lot better than you might expect. From what we see in the show, Kim never actually, intentionally seduced Chay. The closest we get to it is that cheek kiss after Chay's confession, but at that point, I think it's reasonable to believe Kim has caught feelings himself. We see multiple times how Kim is actually trying to do the opposite of take advantage: he keeps trying to dismiss Chay and send him away, and Chay chases after him every time. He's a lovestruck kid that doesn't seem to have a healthy idea of boundaries.

I'm also firmly in the camp that Chay knew Kim was sus from the start. he is a terrible liar, not nearly the criminal mastermind that he pretends to be - honestly, I think Kim is a scared kid that gotten in over his head, and is trying to act more confident than he feels.

Which is the crux of my version of their reconciliation. They are both so young. Chay's in high school, Kim is either about to graduate college or just did, putting him at what. 21? 22? That's several younger than me. We have no idea about Kim's dating history, but we can assume based on Chay's... everything that this is his first attempt at a relationship, and it's clumsy. He jumps in with both feet, he confesses being in love before he even knows Kim's full name, let alone anything meaningful about him. And given how Kim is constantly surprised by Chay, I think this is probably his first attempt at a relationship, too. At least one like this.

I tend to meet any given media where it's at, and accept what it's trying to show me. In this case, I've said it before, I'll say it again: KinnPorsche were the action romance with a side of bodyguard + boss/employee, VegasPete was for the dark romance/bodice ripper girlies, and KimChay was meant to be the sweet high school/college romance. It wasn't supposed to be secretly dark and sinister. If anything, it was a coming of age story for Chay; getting his first heartbreak, being faced with the fact that the world isn't as kind as he thought it was (re: the mafia), and having a rebellious teen phase.

ALL OF THAT TO SAY.

At the end of the day, I think Chay is overwhelmed by everything going on in his life, and he can't be mad at Porsche, bc he doesn't have anyone else in his life that he can trust, so he takes all of those feelings of frustration and fear and dumps them at Kim's feet. Kim is easy to be angry at. Kim lied to him, used him, and broke his heart. So Chay is going to dye his hair, start partying with a bad crowd, and cry over the boy he thought he loved not loving him back.

But Chay also loves his brother more than anything. He would do anything for Porsche, even give up their childhood home and move to some small apartment somewhere just so he can be safe, or drop out of school to get a job so he can help with the bills. Everything Kim did, he did to keep his brother safe. And again, Kim never outright tries to make Chay fall in love with him.

Even The Scene at Kim's apartment isn't a huge betrayal to me. I think Chay went running to the one person that's been his rock since Porsche left, needing comfort and reassurance that something in his life is what he thought it was. When he didn't get hat from Kim, he fell apart. And Kim was an asshole in the way he went about it, yes, but he was just. Denying his feelings. He has the right to do that, and it's a pretty common romance trope. He was scared so he pushed Chay away, and it hit Chay so hard because he just lost what he saw as the one good/steady thing in his life, and now he's left adrift in this scary new world. Hell, maybe Chay even went to Kim, now armed with the truth, hoping that Kim could help him navigate life in the mafia, because Porsche certainly isn't doing it. He leaves Chay crying in his room to go out partying with his new family (which is the most heartbreaking scene in the whole show, for me. He did all of this for Chay, but at the very end, he leaves Chay behind)

Anyway. I think that after a little time and distance, all it would really take for Chay to forgive Kim, is just. A conversation. Once Chay realizes that yeah, he was pushy, he did come on strong, and that all the times Kim pulled away from him it wasn't because he was "playing hard to get", but because he didn't know what to do with Chay's intense feelings.

They need to examine how they approach other people (Chay by throwing his everything in at once, and Kim's habit of pulling away). They both have a lot of growing up to do. And I think, at the end of the day, that's what their story is trying to tell us. Heartbreak is just a part of growing up.

ANYWAY. Sorry to word-vomit at you like that. The tl;dr is that I don't think Kim really betrayed Chay, at least not more than any regular coming-of-age breakup story. I think they need to grow up, have some self-reflection, and come back with a better idea of who they are and what they want. After that, who knows what could happen!

[the-owl-tree]

its SO obvious that they wanted nightcloud to be some evil harpy so we’d feel bad for crowfeather and want him to be with leafpool (who he also mistreats because she had the audacity to choose her friends and family over him. crowfeather would have emotionally abused leafpool truther). crowfeathers trial feels like it wants nightcloud to also fess up to being bad. its so obvious when you read any author statements like from the field guides or websites

I'd say CT is pretty good towards Nightcloud (with my only non-issue criticism being that it does unintentionally and obviously not endorsed by the narrative sort of reaffirm the idea that it was her presence that was stopping them from bonding. obviously this is not the takeaway from the text, but eh, past decisions will always haunt the writing team). Breezepelt loving his mom sooooo so much makes me happy.

Po3 is really kind to her....because she's barely in it LMAO, she doesn't have much character outside of "Breezepelt's mom". She also doesn't really appear in OotS besides background appearances and that One Scene which people will unquestioningly cling onto, remove any context of, and not do any reflection on why they do that in the first place. Because when Nightcloud grabs Crowfeather (yes, she just grabs him), everyone is acting like a drama queen. Lionblaze and Breezepelt are FIGHTING and LEAFPOOL JUST PROFESSED HER LOVE TO CROWFEATHER AGAIN.

No mention of blood, she just fuckijng. grabbed him. if there was blood, we would have known it because breezepelt and lionblaze are beating the shit out of each other on the side lol

So even at her worst, she's still nowhere Crowfeather's level (seriously, if you can't think of the difference between hitting your kid for mouthing off vs. grabbing you partner during a brawl while his ex is going on about he loves her.....come the fuck on. this in no way puts these two on equal levels not at anon just a nebulous 'you'). Even then, this can be explained by everything that happened! That her aggression and unhappiness is from the whole reveal and the crumbling marriage. But this isn't a Nightcloud analysis, my point is that any and all of Nightcloud's actual behavior isn't nearly as focused on as Crowfeather's by the narrative and I don't think Po3 or OotS was trying to convince you otherwise, however, I do think Nightcloud being written more aggressive and "clingy" should be taken into account that the finale of this trio's arc is Crowfeather putting the blame on his wife and then subsequent field guides painting him as correct. The main arc books are fine, you can glean why Nightcloud behaves the way she does but the field guides paint her as a whole other character that we DID NOT SEE!!!! Po3 had plenty of opportunities to show this but they didnt, and instead the field guides invested themselves on a narrative that DID NOT HAPPEN.

The books have a trend of abuse apologia for their father characters, and I think that should be remembered when discussing how the authors and the books chose to handle these three. I know the field guides aren't considered heavy canon, but they're well worth considering to better understand how the writing team understands these characters and "the blame".

Also god yeah, the way Crowfeather treats Leafpool whenever she stopped playing into his fantasy...gross. Very glad more people know he said that shit about "mixed blood" JUST to hurt her, definitely not any red flags here!

[bonefall]

Question: I noticed if you had a choice you'd have given Thornclaw Ashfur's evil arc (except without the incel motivation.) And made Ashfur not evil. May I ask why? Is it from the characterization Ashfur had in TPB?

Reason 1: I think Thornclaw's underlooked as an AU villain

The DELICIOUS irony of the very first warrior Firestar names becoming his family's worst enemy... The contrast between the xenophobic and prickly Thornclaw and his kindly brother Brackenfur, both of them well-known as reliable and responsible warriors. Being stolen by ShadowClan at such a young age and having his father killed in a violent attack, and yet still, concluding that that's the right path.

It's about how Thornclaw could become so committed to the "well being" of ThunderClan that he'll kill and murder for it. The seriousness in his eyes as he hunts you down, the honor of a true warrior without need for underhanded tactics. Nothing about him is a joke, this isn't funny.

The Fire Scene, with Villain Thornclaw, isn't about 'getting back at Squirrelflight.' It's nothing personal; but she has to die along with her whole family so he can get away with it.

It's something I'm so fond of that I do have some Villain Thornclaw in my AU, if you look closely. He's working with Breezepelt and Whiskernose to kill Firestar. He might have known about the plot to get Brackenfur killed and said nothing.

Spiderleg takes his roles post-OotS because he will be dying in the Great Battle.

Reason 2: Shallow childhood fondness of pre-Po3 Ashfur

An AU is an AU, after all. Sometimes I just like to feed the miffed 10-year-old inside of me whose favorite TPB apprentice was Ashpaw, lmao.

Because MAN when I was a kid, I loved Squilf, and haaaated the Fire Scene with villain Ashfur. I remember it happening and being like, "ASHPAW WOULD NEVER. Ashpaw was Cloudpaw's best friend and always helping him cover up secrets :((( he wouldn't DO THIS who is this man... lionblaze was his apprentice.... this is so fake....."

I never had an Ashfur Stan phase, I was just mad that he turned into that lmao.

I love Ashfur now though btw, I am actually very fond of WC's incel villain and I'm really glad they committed to the idea of StarClan making a mistake. I think it's worth what Little Baby Bones lost... that said, sometimes you can just do stuff because it's fun and sparks joy, y'know?

It's why I call that AU "Sweet Nothings," I don't put a lot of thought into the thematic and metatextual implications of it like I do for the Bonefall Rewrite. It's self-indulgent fun.

So instead of being an incel, he's just a petty drama queen who's upset he got rejected and whines about it, not a murderous monster. He's ride-or-die when it comes down to it, and likes to gossip with Ferncloud and Cloudtail. A characterization a lot closer to TPB Ashpaw instead of Po3 Ashfur.

Also he's in a polycule with Hawkfrost/star and Reedwhisker because I like the drama of Hawkash but also have a big soft spot for Hawkreed.

[rawliverandgoronspice]

i feel like nintendo tried to make Zelda perfect because of misogyny. which has always been a thing in Zelda games especially directed at Zelda as a concept and character (trapping her in crystals or statues. that you have to find her etc) it's the same age old female characters cannot have any flaws or else they're a selfish bitch. i wish we saw her be angry at rauru or something but i guess that would go against the narrative. most Zelda games at least had her show some of her emotions besides sadness ... sometimes, this one just didn't show much even if i adore her and will go and find little things in the crevices of this very black and white writing, because i know fans will always turn on her despite the fact that shes also in the writers whims while link who also follows the established status people complain about but gets no shit at all (which i also think he should not get shit for lol)

Yeah, I agree it's definitively a thing in the way female characters are written. However, BotW did show that fans could absolutely care about a less-than-perfect version of Zelda (honestly, so did Skyward Sword, Spirit Tracks --hell, even in Ocarina of Time she makes pretty crucial mistakes). Sonia is handled in the same way Zelda is too: she is paper thin, with the veneer of a more Girlboss personality that never actually meshes with the plot in any way (so it could be removed without consequence, which is a pretty good sign her writing is inorganic imo), since her only function in the story is to get killed so Ganondorf gets a stone, and Rauru gets his tragic arc.

I fully agree the series has its issues when writing women, even up until pretty recently (I'll shut up about gerudos for once in my life and be annoying about something different for a change: but BotW!Paya always made me feel pretty uncomfortable personally, as she's so overtly a character written to be a sexual fantasy before being a person, and I feel like the series didn't dare sailing these waters in quite a long time --OoT being the worst offender imo). But Zelda herself had far more interesting iterations in the series that the casual audience give her credit for, even if she does get damseled left and right and used as reward/motivation --but I feel like it's not always handled in a way that deshumanizes her, there had been interesting iterations on this idea in the series as a whole. Which is why Tears of the Kindgom feels so.... regressive to me? The series used to be much better at handling its female characters --this series gave us Midna! A character that starts off by insulting and demeaning us, mocking our powerlessness by physically embodying our terrified, kidnapped friends and using the player as a mount by force! And she's almost universally agreed-upon as one of the best written characters in the series!!

So yeah, to me, while this absolutely doesn't negate the issues this series has with its female characters, it really is a TotK problem specifically.

[unauthorized-author]

woah this looks cool :o a few questions: 1: is your rewrite political? 2: are there villains who get redeemed? 3: is curlfeather and splashtail evil? 4: how do you feel about other arcs and will you also rewrite them or just ASC? 5: are you still reworking family trees? (i wish you luck if you are)

my first ask! anyway: "Is your rewrite political?" nah. TcitC is not CENTERED around politics, but it does include them, sometimes more prominent in some arcs than others. politics in general is a touchy subject for me. i hate them. WC as a series is political, but my AU is telling a story for the sake of telling a story. political elements are there to push the story forward. i also have other rewrites for other fandoms that are more politic-centered, so WC is just me taking a break ig "Are there villains who get redeemed?" yeah. i haven't decided who exactly, but be rest assured that some "villains" do get redeemed! i'm thinking Star Flower from DOTC will be one of these redeemed villains because of a post I made a while back. it's probably outdated though. DOTC lives by different standards from modern Clans, so what counts as Star Flower getting redeemed there might not work the same way as in modern clans. "Is Curlfeather and Splashtail evil?" no, but they might be in the eyes of RiverClan (mainly Splashtail, Curlfeather went under the radar). not to be poetic, but evil is simultaneously a complex thing and not. a person (or cat in this case) is actions and ideals personified, but we also have the power of thought and perception. sociopaths aren't inherently evil, but stigma is a perception. what one might consider far another doesn't, and that's kind of what RC is going to be going through in AU-ASC. "How do you feel about other arcs and will you also rewrite them or just ASC?" if i had to rate arcs from favorite to worst, the ranking would probably be, TBC -> ASC -> TBP -> TNP -> PoT -> AVOS -> OotS -> DOTC -> CS (counting it lol) this ranking is extremely arbitrary btw. this flips like a dime depending on the day and how much I've reread them. so yeah take this with a grain of salt ig, i analyze arcs as a whole but I'm much more interested in individual books yeah, I'll get around to coming up with concepts for the other arcs. I'm currently focused on ASC bc I've always worked based on what I'm most interested in at that moment. currently it just happens to be ASC since it finished up. i've talked a bit about what I've thought of for other characters in other arcs, like Leopardstar and Mudfur, minor characters, Fernshade, Fallowtail and Reedfeather, etc. i do need to talk about other characters though so i don't blame you for thinking i was doing only ASC lmao "Are you still reworking family trees?" yeah. a lot of family aren't entirely the same. Stonestream will most likely be the son of Heavybelly and Dawnbright like it was originally intended. Emberdawn (the sister of Mosspelt) might have her children gutted. Floatshimmer is DEFINITELY having her children gutted. They are most likely dying or going to a different family, or just being repurposed altogether. a lot of kits in CS are probably going to different families because they are rather too young or I just didn't like it (needleclaw). if i'm not explicitly stating that the parents are going to change, then other parents in that arc will probably keep their kids. despite my ranting in the past, I'm not entirely against the baby boom. i just feel like the Erins will drop the ball, per usual. i've considered making cats just be outsiders to solve the problem, but that's boring. but without a doubt some cats have outsider blood. some Clans will be more xenophobic than others (TC and RC are more strongly against outsiders), and to explain the outsider blood, I'm thinking during periods of leadership leisure that some cats who were more willing to skirt around the code saw their chances and took it. some cats also have multiple fathers. this post is DEFINITELY outdated but yeah, i've always been receptive to this idea (i'm also open to non-serious ideas)

[lander64]

The next Warriors arc is good be, interesting, to say the least. We don’t really know anything about it, but the only info the Erins have given us thus far is that it will focus on a cat from tPB (the first arc). Which is a confusing choice.

Gonna be putting my thoughts into bullet points to help me convey my opinions.

- ‘Cat from The Prophecies Begin’ is an incredibly broad category. This, potentially, ranges from book 1 elders (One-eye, Patchpelt etc) to cats who were kittens in the last book (Sorrelkit and her brothers).

- But also if the arc takes place after the current arc, well that’s uh, strange? The only cats who are still around since tPB is an elder, or at least getting there. I believe Brambleclaw and Tawnypelt are the youngest cats still alive who come from the first arc, and even those two are getting old. WC is targeted towards kids, so having an elder mc in the main series would be such a weird choice for the arc.

- Some people have been suggesting Princess and Smudge and other non clan cats. While there are stories you could tell with them, few of those are stories you could tell that demands 6 books to tell it. Most likely a whole arc would be full of filler and have a snails speed of a pacing, which wouldn’t be ideal. They’d also run into issue of being too old, but they’d have the excuse to have the arc take place Po3-OotS era. I highly doubt the Erins would stay away from the Clans, for a super edition sure, but for a whole damn arc? For characters that aren’t that popular in the fandom at large?

- This leaves our options limited.

- First option, prequel arc. Self explanatory, an arc that takes place before tPB. This feels unnecessary. We already have a stand alone book for basically all the important first arc cats. Therefore, there’s nothing that a whole arc could tell us that we don’t already know. Hell, a consistent criticism of the new standalone books, like Leppordstar’s Honor and Onestar’s confession, is that they add unnecessary, contradictory, and, well bad, information.

If we do get a prequel arc, it’ll most likely be a sequel arc to DotC. Which was the worst selling arc so I doubt it will happen.

- Second option, Starclan arc. Our PoV/s is a Starclan cat and we have an arc take place directly in the clans afterlife. This is actually my favourite suggestion out of all of them. We’re long past the days of Starclan being a mysterious and unknown entity, so getting to know more about how it works, the politics of it all, and get very interesting character interactions, would be a welcome breath of fresh air. You could do a lot with it and expand upon previously undeveloped cats. You could even have something Dark Forest related. This would be an incredibly unique arc, I do highly doubt this is the direction the Erins would take though. But if they do then I’d welcome it.

- Third option, legacy kits. Next arcs Pov isn’t actually the first arc cat, but a relative. This is ether gonna be another Nightheart situation or we get Scourge’s edgy op daughter who’s here to destroy the clans as revenge!!! Or something boring. This one really depends, and would more likely than not be retreading old ground.

And that’s all The ones I can think of that make somewhat sense. Of course we could always get an elders pov or a whole arc outside of the clans despite my severe doubts and issues with those ideas. Honestly, we just don’t know enough to be confident about anything of the next arc. We don’t even have the title for the last book in the current arc yet. But speculation and conversations about it are always a fun time imo.

Feel free to share your ideas of what the next Warriors arc could look like if you’re interested.

[neon-lights-stardust-nights]

🔗 || What's the most extreme thing they have ever done for you? - for ganon? :D

Me, seeing you manage to ask a question that has layers and being fondly reminded of all the times you've poked The Hugo Box and gotten an answer that also has a Shrek meme's worth of layers

[meme]

So! Ganon(dorf) and Ymir!

As of now (though this is subject to change,) there are three incarnations of Ymir in relationships with Ganondorf. They are:

Zanzo (Kokiri)

Velzin, kinda (Twili)

Zedriel (Sheikah? Yiga? I'm debating making up my own clan, but the design was inspired by OoT Impa, SkSw Impa, and the Yiga from BotW)

That's a lot of incarnations! In comparison, Vaati only has one (Fufunmir - Minish,) and Ghirahim was with the first incarnation of Ymir (who uhhhh WORKING ON IT!) Zant has two incarnations to his name, but that's as close as anyone else gets to Ganondorf.

Now, granted. That's partially because he's been alive so goddamn long. (Or... Revived so many times?) But still. I am trying to contextualize that he has had a lot of time to wrack up "extreme things he has done."

I think on some level, the necklace he fashioned Zanzo could be considered one of them. After all, he had to have a portion of The Lost Woods torn through just to make it (not that he TOLD Zanzo that though.) The metal, gems, glass for the locket-thing part, and water inside it are all sourced from the woods, allowing him to enchant it so that it could sustain Zanzo. After all, Kokiri who leave the forest die eventually (and sometimes unpredictably) after they begin aging... The Lost Woods is a small price to pay for his lover's safety.

But on some level, that's understandable! It's not even the worst thing OoT Ganondorf has ever done. No, no. This boy has done plenty worse. A man who turned basically everything alive in Hyrule Castle Town into fucking Redeads is not a man who stops at tearing up a forest and their partner's former home.

Velzin is a Twili, long lived and complicated. Fae technically had a whole character arc before TP took place, before Ganondorf or Zant ever had a chance to do much of anything. By the time Ganondorf is properly alive again, able to recognize Velzin as an incarnation of Zanzo... I mean, Velzin didn't even remember being Zanzo. Let alone why Ganondorf was slinging all these claims about. Zant also had been talking about a prince for his master, and now it all clicks. That was apparently fucking faer.

Ganondorf sort of kind of killed Velzin with magic to try and force a quick reincarnation, for lack of better description.

IDK, killing a version of your lover who refuses to acknowledge the truth of their past in order to potentially obtain a version of your lover who does feels pretty extreme to me. Velzin didn't exactly appreciate being magically incinerated. I think Velzin would whine and say this was it, if Velzin were capable.

There's also just all the shit he's done for Zedriel and Zanzo. Especially Zedriel. Fae is supposed to be his prized assassin, but he's more than willing to handle "things" for faer that fae doesn't want to. Zanzo also sat on a throne of bloodshed.

People have died in their names.

This too could be rather extreme.

I'll say it's either Velzin's death, or Zanzo's necklace.

[izunias-meme-hole]

My first time watching a man go from a young man, to a cruel hearted monster, to a remorseful figure that changes himself in one final act. A lesson that people can be complicated, yet simplistic.

Not my first time seeing a “regular guy” doing what’s right, but certainly one that lingers in my mind in some capacity as the years go by.

They’re a good part of my childhood. These takes on the characters specifically not only reinvented their original dynamic, but showcased what it was in the clearest way possible. Two drastically different folks who want some change in their society, who have different ideas on how that can be done. Granted Optimus is the equivalent of an actually talented college dropout in this show, and Megatron was more of a mob boss mixed with a revolutionary, but I feel like the idea was still conveyed very well.

Ever since my introduction to him in Mario Kart DS and New Super Mario Bros Wii when I was 5, he's kinda been a consistency in my childhood alongside a couple of other purely fun villains, but the main reason why I'm listing him is because I feel like whenever I see good ol' Bowser here, it's like seeing an old friend who pops up now and again. Guess that goes to show that some characters just happen to stick with you, even after a good amount of time.

A continuation of what I learned from Vader, complete with a redemption. Vegeta never started out as a “good guy,” in fact he was a total bastard who was only semi-sympathetic because he wanted to end a greater evil (For his own purposes but still). Yet as Z went on, I saw the changes in his character happen before my eyes, where it all eventually paid off at the end of the Cell Saga and Buu Saga. His arc felt slightly rushed due to it not being planned, but I never felt like it was unnatural.

I already knew that pride was a poison if left unrestrained, but curiosity being a spark to fuel it was something I never truly witnessed in detail so I never outright got it, until diving into Kingdom Hearts and learning about the OG KH Trilogy’s lore for Ansem back in late 2018. Hell looking back at the Ansem reports back in KH1, make me understand exactly how much of a believably dangerous combo it is because I can fully get the mindset of it now. I can relate to feeling the need to know more about certain things, so seeing that be brought to an extreme, in the form of flashiness and good writing (From 2002) had an effect on me.

I’ve seen the whole “power of friendship” shit before my dive into KH, but I feel like the approach to the concept in the first three games in the series was still handled the strongest through this kid, and I slowly appreciate him more everyday.

My love for Final Fantasy truly emerged because of this man showing up in KH and I will never not love him for that.

After playing through OoT and MM for the first time during the pandemic, I feel like there’s never been a character that’s embodied the idea of growing up too quick like this kid, and the fact that I was around 15 around that time, made his story stick to me some more. So consider me nostalgic.

The final evolution of what I learned from watching a fair share of antagonists over the years, but conveyed through a more irredeemable figure that is a best example of a simple yet complicated man. He's the same monster in all of his showings in some capacity, yet he always remains engaging as a character for a plethora of reasons that end up all accumulating to the most compelling showcase of self-destructiveness I have ever seen. A terrifying monster of a man who consistently, without fail, is often his own worst enemy.

I used to watch this show when I was a toddler through a set of old DvD's from the 90's, and its just remained a consistent part of my earliest memories of my childhood, and while it was full of adventure, I mainly remember just watching it due to how mundane it all seemed. There's honestly not much to it, I just wanted to see a bunch of trains do their jobs and go about their lives too.

There are other character's and series's that have shaped my tastes, and just who I am as a whole, but I just wanted to list a few for this small post because we'd be here for hours if I went over everything.

Merry Christmas! Consider this an Ask Meme! Reblog with your responses.

[panvani]

Belkar's epic speech about how people in power almost always choose status quo over anything beneficial to those not in power because inevitably those in power want to cling to that power in the comic that literally categorizes people into Lawful or Chaotic and almost invariably characterizes people who are Lawful as More Good than people who are Chaotic

[sakuraswordly]

And

Source information: https://www.reddit.com/r/truezelda

Write by  u/RenanXIII

The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is a Beautiful Tragedy About Growing Up

Link is one of Nintendo’s most fascinating protagonists, in that he is one of many. From as early as A Link to the Past, The Legend of Zelda has been home to a multitude of Links. While the first few games made little effort to characterize Link beyond some light backstory, Ocarina of Time presented an opportunity to give him an actual arc. Where the Hero of Hyrule (Hyrule Fantasy, Adventure of Link) and Legendary Hero (A Link to the Past, Link’s Awakening) are almost fairy tale-esque in how their suffering is reversed by the ends of their games, the Hero of Time (Ocarina of Time, Majora’s Mask) carries a cross his entire life. His is a classic coming-of-age story that turns Link into someone beyond a silent avatar. The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is revolutionary for a myriad of reasons, but it doesn’t get enough credit for how profound its storytelling is.

Ocarina of Time is, at its core, a tragedy. The worst thing that happens to the Hero of Hyrule is that he becomes the target of Ganon’s cultists. By the end of Adventure of Link, he has proven himself worthy of the Triforce of Courage and successfully fought back Ganon’s forces. The worst thing that happens to the Legendary Hero is his uncle’s death. By the end of A Link to the Past, everyone who died during Ganon’s conquest has been revived and Link is free to gleefully explore the world at his leisure. The worst thing that happens to the Hero of Time is hard to pin down considering just how much the boy suffers in OoT alone.

This Link is a war-orphan and a refugee, left in the care of the Great Deku Tree by a dying mother her son never meets. Life in Kokiri Forest is safe but isolating, as the children of the forest never quite see Link as one of their own. Dialogue heavily suggests Link was othered by his peers. Link’s treehouse is isolated from the rest of his community, tucked away on a lower level of the forest and fenced off. Saria notes that Link is a “true Kokiri” now that he has Navi, showing that even his closest friend saw an inherent difference between them. The Deku Tree refers to him as “the boy without a fairy,” an authority figure immediately othering the Hero of Time within the context of the story. Link’s life is lonely and lacking in solidarity. Compare this to the sense of family each other Link either has or eventually finds.

The Hero of Hyrule has no mentioned family, but he wins over the affection of two Princess Zeldas. The Legendary Hero was trained by and lives with his uncle. The Hero of Winds (The Wind Waker, Phantom Hourglass) has a grandmother and younger sister who care about him deeply. The Little Hero (The Minish Cap) and New Hero of Hyrule (A Link Between Worlds, Tri Force Heroes) both live with their grandfathers. The Divine Beast (Twilight Princess) and Hylia’s Chosen Hero (Skyward Sword) both come from tight-knit communities that go out of their way to take care of them. The Royal Engineer (Spirit Tracks) and Hero of the Wild (Breath of the Wild) are members of prestige brotherhoods and forge deeply intimate bonds with their respective Princesses.

At most, the Hero of Time had Saria and the Great Deku Tree before Navi. And while Mido does refer to Link as their “favorite,” the Kokiri hardly share the same sentiment. No one seems particularly choked up to see Link leave the forest and Mido & Fado are actively stand-offish, almost accusing him of being responsible for the Deku Tree’s death. “What did you do!? The Great Deku Tree… did he… die? How could you do a thing like that!?” / “What did you do to the Great Deku Tree?” The only person who bothers seeing Link off is Saria, yet all he can do is run away from the moment. He lacks the emotional maturity to say goodbye properly.

It makes for an interesting parallel when Link calmly walks off after being abandoned by Navi in the ending, signifying his newfound maturity. It’s also a beat that bookends the Hero of Time’s story with sadness. His journey begins and ends by bidding farewell to his closest companions, presumably never seeing either one again. The only thing Link has to show for his adventure is the growth he internally underwent. It almost takes some of the whimsy out of Ocarina of Time to scrutinize over Link’s arc so intently, but the game gains something a bit more profound in return: pathos.

It’s hard not to feel for the Hero of Time, or his Zelda for that matter. Part of what makes Ocarina of Time a quintessential coming-of-age narrative is that it does not shy away from childish mistakes or the inevitable failures we all experience as we transition into adulthood. Tragic heroes all have a flaw, and Link and Zelda are undone by their youth. They are forced to grow up before their time (literally in Link’s case), making the mistakes young people would realistically make in their situation. Zelda’s master plan to get the Triforce before Ganondorf can is unraveled by the short-sightedness only a child could have.

She does not have the life experience to consider that the Triforce is already in the safest place it could be — locked away in a Sacred Realm. Ganondorf has also failed to collect the three Spiritual Stones, whereas Link already has one by the time he meets Zelda. By sending Link off to collect the remaining Stones and take the Triforce for themselves, the only thing Zelda accomplishes is Ganondorf’s hard work for him. The Master Sword deems young Link unworthy of wielding it and throws him into a seven year coma, as if divine punishment for his recklessness. Zelda herself goes into hiding and assumes a new identity just to survive, left to watch from afar as Hyrule is desecrated by a tyrant she gave the keys to the kingdom to.

Finding yourself is a natural part of growing up, so it makes sense that identity plays a key role in both Link and Zelda’s arcs. Link does not know who he is, Zelda has to hide who she truly is. Now the deposed princess of Ganondorf’s kingdom, Zelda poses as a Sheikah named Sheik. She waits seven years for Link to reappear just to help him from a distance, keeping the only person who can possibly understand what she’s been through at arm’s length. She is a survivor who will do anything to heal Hyrule, no matter the pain it may bring her. Zelda cannot afford to be herself. Yet it’s in being Sheik where she displays the qualities Hyrule’s leader needs: the patience to simply wait, the courage to fight alongside her people, and the wisdom to right her wrongs.

Zelda has her kingdom ripped away from her, but Link is in many respects a man without a nation. He is raised as a Kokiri his entire life, but ostracized enough where he has no real attachment to the culture. He doesn’t even live in Kokiri Forest after returning home. Link finding out he is a Hylian does not so much as shake him, because his identity was never tied to culture — it was tied to being alone. He went from being the boy without a fairy to the Hero of Time, something no other Hylian can understand.

Link and Zelda’s final parting highlights just how much the two have been through. Zelda’s face conveys a genuine amount of sadness bordering on regret. Link has to go home. He deserves a second chance at his childhood for everything he’s gone through. “Now, go home, Link! Regain your lost time! Home… Where you are supposed to be… the way you are supposed to be.” But doing so means that Zelda no longer has anyone by her side who comprehends what she’s been through, a fate she unknowingly condemns Link to as Navi leaves him seconds after they get back. Link and Zelda are kindred spirits divided by time.

What makes Ocarina of Time’s story so profound is that its fantastical narrative is grounded in real emotion. People come and go. Our closest companions leave, sometimes without so much as a warning. We might discover who we always were only to realize it doesn’t matter in the face of who we are. Others might decide on our behalf that it’s best to say goodbye, leaving us to pick up the pieces alone. Growing up means spending day after day with a friend just so they can suddenly go their own way. The Hero of Time’s arc is a classic hero’s journey steeped in a profoundly human sadness. Growing up before our time, letting go of childhood before we’ve even had the chance to grasp it, and losing familiarity’s comfort as it’s ravaged by time. It’s precisely this level of tragedy that emotionally grounds Ocarina.

There’s a layer of depth present in OoT’s writing that reveals itself when you look beyond the surface. The Hero of Time’s backstory is still one of the most comprehensive in the series, with most Links never getting the same amount of attention given to their identity. Who he was is shrouded in mystery, but you can cohesively track this Link’s life from childhood into adulthood. Not even the heroes with sequels grow quite like the Hero of Time. We see him become a man and leave his boyish traits behind. Princess Zelda has actual agency and gets to be an active member of the plot as Sheik. Zelda is as much a main character as Link, their stories naturally intersecting and reflecting one another. Heroism often comes without glory or reward. You will not necessarily be praised or even acknowledged for your accomplishments. No one might even notice. But that doesn’t mean the right thing isn’t worth doing.

No other Link before or after has undergone as tragic an arc. Zeldas who stand by their heroes as legitimate co-leads are still a rarity for the series. Which is a shame, because it’s really what elevates Ocarina of Time as a story. Link has zero dialogue, but you can still relate to what is happening to him and trace a clear arc from the start of the game to the very end. Zelda has a tangible presence throughout the whole story and helps Link beat Ganon. Sheik’s flowery speech injects the script with a poetic language that incites self-reflection. “Time passes, people move… Like a river’s flow, it never ends…” The Hero and Princess of Time are the stars of The Legend of Zelda’s greatest tragedy.

Tragic figures are compelling. They fail, but can offer us the hope that we can overcome our own failings. Link’s reckless need to dive headfirst into any conflict becomes genuine courage as he braves Hyrule’s Temples. Zelda learns from her mistakes, wisely guiding Link from a distance and gaining an emotional intelligence that sells her growth from a rash princess playing hero to a worthy queen. “All the tragedy that has befallen Hyrule was my doing… I was so young… I could not comprehend the consequences of trying to control the Sacred Realm. I dragged you into it, too.”

Time is a double-edged sword. Everything we gain from time, we lose something in return. Wisdom comes at the cost of innocence and perception of blissful ignorance. Maturity is forged through failure, each chain its own symbol of pain. Link ends Ocarina of Time lonelier than he began, Navi gone and the friendships he made non-existent. If Majora’s Mask were a lesser sequel, it would have ended with Link and Navi reuniting, but it doesn’t, because that’s not true to life or Ocarina’s point. What separates Ocarina of Time from virtually every other Zelda game is that fantasy concedes to reality. The hero pulls the sword out of the stone, but not without damning consequences. The hero saves the world, but not without paying a personal price. The hero comes home, but nothing and no one is the same.

The Legend of Zelda is no stranger to bittersweet endings, with Link’s Awakening beating Ocarina of Time to the punch by half a decade, but melancholia is ingrained in OoT’s DNA on an intimate level. Link and Zelda eventually succeed at stopping Ganon, but not without being irrevocably changed. The boy who lived a lonely life gave his childhood away to save a world he cannot take part in. The princess who had enough foresight to prevent calamity inadvertently brings ruin upon her kingdom and bids farewell to her only knight — only friend — as penance.

Sending Link back in time is a kind gesture, but it’s not the mercy Zelda thinks it is. Ignoring all narrative speculation, the reason Navi leaves at the end of the game is simple. Even if you could go back in time and somehow relive your childhood, you wouldn’t be the same. We can never truly go back to who we were, even when a fantasy princess bends the rules of space and time to will it so. Navi’s departure puts Link back where he started, but with the emotional maturity to walk into the future instead of running in fear. It’s a powerful note to end Link’s arc on, a reflection of the childhood he will never get back and the courage that helps us confront the future.

Childhood may fly by, but the memories we make last a lifetime. Adulthood is not without its suffering, but it can make us stronger. Tragedy shapes and breaks and reshapes everything, but that doesn’t mean you won’t find happiness in the moments in-between. Ocarina of Time’s story is not joyless, but it does take itself seriously and respects the audience’s emotions enough to make Link and Zelda earn their victory — their growth. They need to grow up and find themselves before taking on their responsibilities in earnest, which in a way is the journey we all have to go on through life. Relatably human, The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time is a beautiful tragedy that gets to the heart of growing up.

Here's that same write-up, but with pretty gifs and images:

https://goombastomp.com/legend-of-zelda-ocarina-of-time-tragedy-story-analysis/

[the-owl-tree]

Breezepelt’s conversation with Sunbeam was so enjoyable. His comment about parents being the worst cracked me up. Glad there is still some part of Breezepelt that rightfully thinks his dad sucks. I also appreciate seeing Breezepelt as a more mellowed out senior warrior that is still a bit snarky and prickly.

Also I’m glad that Squirrelstar shut Ivypool up after she made her weird kittypet comments, it was an odd choice because in the same conversation she is the most willing to directly interfere with RiverClan’s affairs (though it is framed as the evil possibly influencing ThC too, which I guess isn’t unfounded given they just dealt with Ashfur who did negatively impact all of the Clans, but still annoying).

i'll take my little crumbs of crowfeather hate even if its in the half-assed form of "haha dads amiright". authors you will never recover from the crownightbreeze debacle that lasted po3, oots, and the field guides and i will never let you forget it.

I feel very mixed on Ivypool's writing...I was kind of hoping that her character was going to develop more after TBC and she'd be more critical of her own belief's after she realizes she's been saying what the Imposter preached. It's frustrating that she's still written as a WC conservative with no real reflection of her in that regard. Ah, shame, happy for Ivy fans who are happy to see her as deputy though!

I'm iffy on this whole bizarre take on trying to both sides the Clans, uh, helping each other? Idk it feels like they're using Ashfur the same way they use Darktail: the One Bad Cat is the root cause of bigotry and not something that has been supported and rewarded by the structure of the Clans itself. Idk, this with the whole religious thing going on in the arc has me concerned for it where it's going thematically.

[zoras-river]

Oh I don't think it's unfair to hold ALttP against OoT at all -- I didn't read OoT that way pre-SkSw, but it's always been a coherent reading of the game. My gripe with Skyward Sword boils down to that, prior to the game's additions to canon, readings less bound up in the divine right of kings and chosen people were viable and after SkSw they were not.

Which again isn't to say OoT critiqued either the monarchy or ALttP. It absolutely chickened out of any of that, but I do think OoT read by itself at least whistled past some graveyards and de-emphasized the importance of bloodlines compared to what came before and what came after, which left an opening to treat ALttP's chosen people ubi sunt bullshit as the sort of self-flattering nostalgia that lots of people have historically believed but not as something that was factually true of Hyrule. This might also be the product of playing OoT first and then coming to ALttP later -- which maybe made it easier to take OoT's vision of the past, of which Hylians were one part but not even close to all of it, as authoritative and read ALttP as never-truly-accurate mythologizing, and maybe if I had played ALttP then OoT would look more like confirmation of a glorious Hylian past instead?

I also agree earlier installments of the series than Skyward Sword are equally deserving of critique. I've said OoT chickened out of distancing itself from ALttP above, but I do think that for a while -- even if they weren't engaing with the problems in prior installments, or explicitly disclaiming them -- the games were inching toward a mythology less enmeshed in the supremacy of Hylians and the divine right of kings. Not apologizing or openly examining what prior canon had been, but drifting away from it and not paying it attention. It's extremely reasonable to ask for more from the OoT to TP games given how bad some of the prior mythos was,* but even that neglect left room for re-interpretation of old canon and engagement with the series in ways that minimized its worse elements of lore.

But that's all moot, because whatever ambiguity there was before, Skyward Sword went and removed it. Like you say, the parallels between Ameterasu and the Imperial family of Japan on the one hand and Hylia and the Hylian Royal family on the other are striking. To the extent there is a difference between the two, Skyward Sword takes an even more pro-monarchist line. Zelda isn't just the descendant of a goddess as the Imperial family are, she's the goddess' reincarnation and is one herself. All of the worst tendencies in ALttP are confirmed again, and substantially more Divine Right is piled on top of it. I agree with you Skyward Sword is not where those problems start, but I do think it represents a massive regression after twenty-ish years of improvement.

*And again TP's inclusion here is...shaky. We see the re-emergence of themes of Hyrule as a chosen land (though, notably, not a chosen people) And we do see direct magical evidence that the goddesses pick sides on questions of who should rule (Midna, not Zant) but a strongly emphasized theme of Midna's character arc is coming to understand royal obligations extend past seeking the good of just her people to all of the world. It's a weird hodge-podge.

The thing about Skyward Sword's story is that I basically agree with a lot of the criticisms levelled against it, but simultaneously feel that people are wildly overestimating its impact on the series.

My biggest issue with Skyward Sword's story is that it's an incredibly boring, safe take on a Legend of Zelda prequel game (which Skyward Sword actively tries to position itself as). Skyward Sword follows the typical Zelda formula beat-for-beat, with little reflection or deconstruction of it. As a result, Skyward Sword does very little to reframe the rest of the series. Which is why, in a way, it's kind of baffling to me to see how many people got mad at it for 'ruining the Zelda lore'. Frankly, Skyward Sword isn't interesting enough for that. You can't ruin anything if you refuse to innovate.

Skyward Sword added exactly three things to the overarchiving Zelda lore that affect previous entries: Hylia, Demise, and Fi. Of the three, Fi is in my opinion by far the most interesting, and also the one that was handled the worst. I consider the writing for Fi's character to be one of my personal biggest issues with the game, and I genuinely struggle to find a single good narrative decision they made for her. Fi's existence ultimately has little impact on the series for me because her character had little impact on me. Your mileage may vary.

Fi's not really the addition people take issue with though: that would be Hylia and Demise. And I get where people are coming from. Largely I don't even disagree. I also think that having a flat good/evil dichotomy represented by gods is boring as hell. I just think it's weird when people get mad at Skyward Sword for introducing this to the series, because. Like. All Skyward Sword did was add gods to the flat good/evil dichotomy already present in the series.

Establishing that Zelda, and therefore the Hyrulean royal family, is descended from a literal god absolutely has a ton of unfortunate implications. Like, y'know, in general you should probably think twice about canonizing the literal divine right of kings. But here's the thing: the series was already operating under the divine right of kings. That doesn't mean the choice to make it an explicit in-universe correct belief is now exempt from criticism, but, well. What does it actually change?

LOZ never meaningfully critiques the Hyrulean royal family; even when it acknowledges them as having done bad things (rare in its own right), the narrative will still ultimately position them as the good guys against the evil Ganon/Ganondorf/[insert villain here]. In at least the seven games I've played to completion, their right to rule is never questioned, and neither is Hyrule's dominance over other peoples, for that matter. The Hyrulean royal family's rule is treated as a self-evident fact of reality, as fate and destiny, the correct order of things. What is that if not the divine right of kings?

The divine right of kings was already the logic the series was operating under. What does Hylia's addition change about the framing of the previous games? Were there protests from non-Hylian peoples against the royal family's rule that have now been invalidated by canon? No. Because anyone who challenged the Hyrulean family's right to rule was already the bad guy. Skyward Sword did not introduce the unquestionable divine right of kings to the series; it merely agreed with it. That warrants criticism, but blaming it for 'ruining the lore' is strange when all it does is fall in line with the previous games and their framing.

I can't argue against the critiques regarding Demise as much, since they mostly center around what it does to Ganondorf's character, and the only game I've played with him as of yet is Ocarina of Time. Until I've played Wind Waker, which apparently does a lot to deepen him as a character, I'm not comfortable making statements on his character (that don't strictly pertain to Ocarina of Time). I will say, however: Demise is not out of character for the series' treatment of evil either. The vast majority of villains in the series I've encountered so far are evil for the sake of being evil. The flat good/evil dichotomy that Hylia and Demise represent changes nothing about the rest of the games I've played, because that dichotomy was already part of the fabric of the universe. Whether or not there is an Evil God causing it materially changes nothing about the series.

Also, I've seen people blaming Skyward Sword's introduction of Hylia for Breath of the Wild's Fantasy Christianity and monotheism, which is just blatantly unfair. Breath of the Wild very obviously wanted to create a world even more in line with typical Western-style fantasy than Hyrule already was in previous games. That's why they added Monotheistic Fantasy Christianity and did away with (or at least ignored) the Golden Three and other gods established over the course of the series. Skyward Sword did not do that. Din/Farore/Nayru are canon and heavily implied to be far more powerful than Hylia and Demise ever were. If Hylia hadn't existed Breath of the Wild would've picked another god to be monotheistic about, or invented one. Blaming Skyward Sword for Breath of the Wild's narrative decisions is simply unfair and unfounded.

Lastly: the Zelda series does not care about what previous games in the series have canonized. Skyward Sword is actually probably the game I've seen that is most careful about not contradicting previous lore, even if it did obviously go ahead and make a bunch of stuff up. Pretty much every Zelda game I've played so far has blatantly contradicted previously established characters or lore in some way. The games use whatever canon and lore they want to use, and discard the rest. Skyward Sword hardly ruined the possibility of the series ever challenging the Hyrulean family's divine right of kings or the good/evil dichotomy, because if a Zelda game wants to do that, it can simply ignore Skyward Sword's very existence, or radically retcon its lore. The lore established in Skyward Sword is not any more binding than the lore established in the rest of the series, and it's silly to pretend otherwise. If the series ever wants to take on the daunting task of confronting the unfortunate implications baked into the very fabric of its reality, Skyward Sword's lore is hardly going to stop it. Like, TOTK completely retconned the entire game's plot pretty much, come on now.

(And if the LOZ series itself is perfectly content ignoring or retconning parts of its lore, I don't see why fans can't do so either. Skyward Sword does not stop you from forming your own interpretations.)

There are a lot of rightful criticisms to be made about Skyward Sword and the lore it established, but they're largely extensions of criticisms that apply to the series as a whole. Skyward Sword did not invent these issues, nor did it remove the possibility of confronting them. Its lore is the product of the series' unquestioned acceptance of the good/evil dichotomy and the divine right of kings, not its cause. It's a symptom, not the problem. The worst you can accuse it of is being a particularly blatant symptom.

I agree that Hylia and Demise are uninteresting additions to the series' lore, and I think it's fair to be pissed at the way they give an explicit in-universe validation to the games' framing. But ultimately, all Skyward Sword did was fall in line with logic the series has long since operated under: that Hyrule and its royal family is good and all who oppose them are evil. Singling it out as uniquely problematic does nothing except let the other games off the hook.

Skyward Sword's story operates under some very concerning logic and has some extremely unfortunate implications, and criticism for that is warranted, but saying it 'ruined the lore' is disproportionate. The lore sucked to begin with.

[cat-in-a-basement]

Main Character Opinion Piece

Ah, opinions. That old chestnut. I do want to get back to sharing thoughts on this cursed series but sometimes lack Motivation (trademark pending). So here’s a list below of the main characters in the main book series and how I would rank them. 

Note: aVoS and DotC are excluded because I have not read them yet. I don’t want to give thoughts on something I have limited knowledge of.

Hollyleaf: 9/10. The perfect storm of everything I like combined with a dynamic story and complex character. She's not perfectly consistent and I recognize those faults but no other warriors character captivates me in how strong a presence she has. 

Squirrelflight: 8.5/10. What I like about her is her growth from annoying apprentice to headstrong warrior. I love she doesn't filter her thoughts and she'll break rules and the societal norm to do what's right. She's selfless, compassionate and complex, and really, really needs a break.

Ivypool: 8/10. I do believe rereading my opinion on Ivypool might lower since she's underutilized in OotS. But more so I love the idea of Ivypool, what she could have been. And that concept colors my perception of her in an ideal world where that happened.

Rootspring: 7/10. Rootspring is very good, until he isn't. Like Feathertail he's very likeable when he's taking on an active role as Rootpaw, but when he becomes a warrior he loses some of the dynamic-ness and personality he had as an apprentice. Come TPoNS, he's become a window reacting without any flair of the personality he once had.

Dovewing: 6.5/10. I used to dislike Dovewing, finding her hard to read about in OotS because she acted like a child (as children are want to do). While now I've grown to appreciate her more, she doesn't leave a big impact on me. I don't have a lot of investment in her character, and so I am indifferent to her in the books.

Jayfeather: 6.5/10. Jayfeather I have complex feelings about, because while I do think he's a good character, I for the life of me cannot make myself like him as a person (er, cat). I have settled on indifference towards him because he has settled into his role as gruff medicine cat and I just sort of mentally check out.

Firestar: 5/10. Firestar...is a warm bowl of soup. Not bad, not amazing, but it fills the belly. I don't gravitate towards him as a character because he's a very safe, very mild character who acts as the typical hero in a young adult/children's novel. I can't say I hate him, but I don't particularly care for him either.

Bristlefrost: 4.5/10. Bristlefrost being so low here is a crime I'll never forgive. She started out so strong, with sound character development, hopes, dreams, ambitions. But it unraveled so quickly, with some of the worst character regression I have ever seen. We need to be going up, not down!

Leafpool: 4/10. Leafpool never started out strong for me, but I actively began to dislike her after how she treated her apprentice/son, and especially after her actions in Leafpool's Wish. She's selfish and bitter all without the intrigue that would bring. I find it hard to accept what the books say as her being a gentle and kind figure when she doesn't act like it in my books.

Lionblaze: 3/10. Lionblaze in PoT was angry hot head guy. Okay, not as good as his siblings but not offensive. Lionblaze in OoTS does nothing but mope over Cinderheart or act as a window. Boring, lazy. Where did his personality go? It's like an incline where he somehow keeps getting worse. By TBC he's at the worst he's ever been and even with his shitty behavior he is continually rewarded for it. You want to get on BC's bad side? Be terrible with no intricacy and get rewarded for it.

Shadowsight: 3/10. Of the three PoVs for TBC, Shadowpaw had been the weakest for me. But it became apparent the writers really wanted him to suffer, even is the injury was literally falling off a cliff. What is so infuriating about Shadowsight is he actively warps the story so he can be painted in a sympathetic light and he does not grow, he does not learn, we're expected to watch him suffer and go 'yep that's a character.' It's especially awful he warps other characters around him for the sake of his suffering.

Bramblestar: How did we get from sweet, brave, dynamic Bramblepaw...to this. As Bramblepaw he was good, very good. He had a great arc denouncing his father and teaching Firestar to not judge him for his father's crimes. Bramblepaw is a 7/10. 

But Brambleclaw completely regressed in character to suddenly need his father's approval, and was a moron who didn't listen to Squirrelflight’s concerns 'hey, uh, your brother is kind of evil', and — oh, found it difficult to decide whether or not to kill his leader and commit treason. Firestar should have not made him deputy. I imagine Bramblepaw wouldn't want to be deputy after that if he was still that same character. But no, he gets rewarded for his character regression and idiocy. 2/10.

Bramblestar? He went from idiot rewarded for bad ideas to emotionally abusive partner. His cold shoulder to Squirrel in OotS is manipulative, his actions in SqH are disgusting and gaslighting, and to top it off, the narrative treats him as a good and kindly high king when he clearly has not earned it at all! GOD, I hate Bramblestar. 1/10.

Stormfur: 1/10. By all rights, Stormfur shouldn’t be considered a main character here. But he is so very bad I felt it was my civil duty to include him. If there's one thing worse than being actively shitty, it's doing nothing at all. Stormfur is a dead fish and even then the dead fish probably has more personality. He's the lowest because I cannot think of a single good thing about his character or story. He's bland and boring, does absolutely nothing and gets rewarded for it.

[everybody-loves-purdy]

I think one thing I don’t like about the Warrior Cats fandom is the fans who will defend horrible cats and act like they’re innocent who did not wrong. Like it’s okay to like a horrible character and still knowledge the bad things they’ve done, you’re not a fake fan for doing so? I’ve seen people defend Thistleclaw, Ashfur, Bramblestar, and Mapleshade.

Like Frecklewish couldn’t swim, she’s a Thunderclan and it’s been stated multiple times that only Riverclan cats can swim- her jumping into to save them would’ve made things worse since she just be another cat the Riverclan patrol had to save. Reedshine wasn’t even aware that Appledusk and Mapleshade was mates; Appledusk was a caring mate to Mapleshade and yeah, he turns away from her. However, he is a grieving father who has to face the reality that his mate caused the death of their kits and willingly put them in danger even when he warned them to stay away from the river. Ravenwing only called out Mapleshade for lying to a grieving family and their clan. Squirrelflight aren’t to blame for how Ashfur and Bramblestar treat her- like, how dare Squirrelflight be a cat with her own feelings and opinions on things? How dare Squirrelflight decide to be honest with Ashfur and admit she only sees him as a friend? She never used him- she actually gave him a chance! Thistleclaw was never a good mate or father, he talked about Snowfur in the Dark Forest and he tried to keep Whitestorm from interacting with Bluefur- his own aunt and didn’t care if Tigerclaw was being too harsh to his own son during training. Silverhawk, a Dark Forest cat, even questions if Thistleclaw actually cared for his mate.

I think it’s okay to like villains- to like horrible characters but defending their actions, acting like it was never their fault, that they’re innocent and did no wrong. To the point where these fans hurt other fans during arguments is just awful. Ashfur is a ruined character for me due to one apologist who went too far trying to convince people Ashfur was a innocent cat who ‘dealing with grief and loneliness’, ‘he thought he was doing what was right’, ‘he only had Squirrelflight and she rejected him’.

I completely agree. I’ve always said like whoever you want but just don’t defend their shitty actions. For example I love Breezepelt (don’t ask me why I don’t know either lol), but you’ll never get me defending him for what he did in oots. You tell me he’s an awful trash person in that arc? Yeah I agree he’s the worst, I’m not going to defend that dumpster fire of immaturity and spite.

I’m really sorry Ashfur was ruined for you like that, I’ve had a character ruined for me due to an interaction with someone else (completely different fandom to this) so I know what that’s like