#'kris is secretly evil! ralsei is secretly evil! WE are secretly evil!'

[stainedglassthreads]

Musings on Kris’ relationship with the Player, and why neither needs to be the villain. 

Also I don’t think that Kris is evil, but I don’t think the Player is evil either. And I don’t think Kris’ relationship with us is as simple as JUST hating us. 

Yes, we can choose to do some truly shitty things. Throwing away Ralsei’s manually repeatedly for one example, the Snowgrave route for a far more shitty example. And I’m really uncomfortable with the implications of some theories that we must keep Kris’ darker impulses ‘in check’ by removing their capability for choice. And yes, I agree that sometimes, Kris absolutely does resent us-- most notably, when we prevent them from playing piano or when we make them drop the Ball of Junk. 

But they seem to really love Susie, and their adventures in the Dark World, and care for Lancer and Roulxs. Through their actions and descriptions in Chapter 2, it has been observed they seem to love Susie most, out of the Darkners and their childhood friend Noelle. Likewise, Kris will feel bitter if you drop the Ball of Junk(implied to be their Dark World inventory), and fumble to grab Lancer and Roulxs if you drop them in the Light World. So there exist things from their adventures as our vessel that they enjoy. And like it or not, with our assistance is how they made these friendships and encountered these people. 

Also... there’s the fact that they do rip the Soul out, displaying they clearly have a method of rejecting us, but keep shoving it back in. 

Why do they do that? With how jerky and stiff their movements are without a soul, I’ve seen it theorized that they may be in great pain or even dying without one. Spamton’s final fate... may support this. But it might also just be... we facilitate their adventures. We’re the one who gives them the right choices, to make Susie and the Darkners love them. To help them figure out how to Spare Darkners. To guide them through the Dark Worlds. As fun as the Dark Worlds are, they can include some really scary situations, like fighting King Spades, Jevil, and Spamton NEO, and would a normal teen with no battle experience really be able to keep a level head and command their friends to win without a bit of supernatural assistance? 

But there’s another thing I keep thinking about, since writing my last post. 

There’s a kind of freedom in helplessness too, isn’t there? 

If it wasn’t your choice, then it also isn’t your responsibility. There’s nothing more you could’ve done. Kris seems to be going through a stressful time in their life with their parents divorced, brother gone, and some classmates regarding them as weak, weird, or cowardly. Wouldn’t it be easier to just... let someone else take the wheel? Someone who’s friendly and personable, and calm and smart, and above all determined to get the best possible ending. 

Yes. You, as the Player, are capable of doing some truly fucked up things in this game. But saying the player is ‘just evil’ is to surrender the choice to do better. To surrender your choice to do better. In Undertale, did you just sit back and watch Frisk grab the controls from you as they went sparing monsters, like an 8bit movie? Or were your choices an active, driving force in helping the monsters reach the surface? 

I think it’d be interesting if Kris wasn’t perfect. if they were selfish, and manipulative, and reckless, and made mistakes in their quest for an adventure and friends. So many mistakes. If maybe their friends got angry at them. And at the very end... they finally took responsibility for their actions, and took initiative in trying to make amends and become a real Hero of Legend. Maybe communicating openly and working with us, instead of ripping their heart out whenever they wanted to do something on their own. 

I think it’d add an interesting layer to the discussion on choices, consequences, and responsibility Undertale and Deltarune present. 

[cattyanon]

Something I don’t get is why people think Ralsei is evil just because he isn’t telling us everything at once aka ‘hiding stuff’.

Yeah he only tells us stuff when it’s relevant but I don’t see how that’s evil?? You don’t tell every person you meet/know everything you know all at once, you tell them certain things when it’s relevant to the conversation/what’s happening.

And I mean, is that not what Ralsei is doing? He didn’t tell us Darkners from other worlds aren’t compatible with others only when it actually happened. Why would he tell us this while exploring a place where the Darkners don’t need to worry about that happening? There’s no reason we need this information in Chapter 1, it’s not relevant. 

Same thing with the whole “if too many dark worlds are created lots of bad things will happen”. Nobody was trying to create another dark world in Chapter 1. Why would we need to know this? Again, it’s not relevant.

Why does this make Ralsei evil? I mean sure he’s probably actually hiding things from us but who doesn’t have secrets? You might keep something a secret from somebody if you think telling them will have a negative effect, perhaps that’s what Ralsei is doing. I don’t see why this is evil. Just cause he’s keeping secrets doesn’t mean the secrets have to be evil.

So... why exactly do people think he’s secretly evil? I mean sure, he might be secretly evil, but so can any other character! Any character can be secretly evil so where’s the proof that indicates Ralsei might actually be secretly evil?

[blooming-marylii]

I just realized in ch2 there is this line in the tutorial Ralsei had written, about breaking bonds and becoming stronger. Like you could recruit people to your Dark World but could also... not. And well... why would Ralsei write that? And it's not about just fighting Darkners, ohhhh no. You aren't becoming stronger if you simply press fight, it is about killing people.

Now, I don't believe Ralsei's secretly evil, but rather that his intentions are good but sometimes misguided. And, given he's designed to be the player's favourite, and that he seems to know about the soul controling Kris (I'm not sure if it was implied or we collectively assumed that because it makes sense considering everything else Ralsei does and says), I think he knows about the possibility of the Weird Route taking place if the player decides so. And he may be deeply concerned and stuff but won't interfere because well. The soul knows best. But near the end, if we won't stop taking dangerous paths (assuming there will be another Weird Routes, which I think there will), he will stop us. Or at least try.

I don't actually know where I was going with this but hope you liked reading all this xD

[kindestegg]

Deltarune: On tea, relationships, and why people probably need to stop exaggerating

Alright, so ever since the introduction of the “character flavored” teas in chapter 2, there has been a lot of discussion about them. If you haven’t heard of it yet, in Deltarune Chapter 2, there’s an item that’s a tea that you can buy from an NPC and choose the flavor of, giving you a flavor that is named after a party member. So, Kris tea, Noelle Tea, Susie Tea, and Ralsei Tea.

The fun thing about this item is that it can more or less be used to “track” the relationships between the characters, so to speak. For example, if Noelle has the Susie tea, even if she’s not supposed to drink it due to normally leaving the party, she’ll still have a reaction to it, wondering if they would sell this in gallons and recovering an absurd amount of HP, 400 to be precise.

(this is long as hell, so please continue reading under the cut)

These teas are also actually a reference to a book series Toby is a fan of, Sideways Stories from Wayside School, which does have a chapter about students having ice cream flavored after their classmates. This is most evident when the characters drink their own tea, which tastes like nothing to them and recovers the least amount of HP: 10. In the books, the students also could not perceive the taste of their own flavor of ice cream.

So, the fandom gets ahold of this information and starts testing out the teas and how characters react to them, right? The thing is, I’ve seen people kind of exaggerate the importance of these items and even the meanings of them, and while I think everyone’s entitled to harmless headcanons speculating on the relationship of characters, the problem is people are using these teas as immutable proof and part of their theories.

One of such exaggerations comes mostly in the form of the infamous Ralsei Tea, as to which Kris apparently does not show much reaction, though curiously Ralsei is still happy to see Kris drinking it, and it only recovers 60 HP. For reference, the teas usually cap at a good 120 HP, which is when a character loves the flavor, Noelle being the outlier because she really is just that in love with Susie. For the most part the Fun Gang has pretty positive reactions to each other’s flavor of teas, recovering 120 HP… with the exception of Kris’ reaction towards Ralsei tea.

And the problem starts now: Due to this, people started using this little tidbit in their theories, claiming this was proof that Kris actually dislikes or even hates Ralsei, that we should be ashamed of ourselves for making Kris hug Ralsei, that it is torture for them that we choose nice dialogue options towards Ralsei, some going as far as to claim this is somehow tied to the infamous “Ralsei is secretly evil” theories.

But does this speculation hold any actual weight when analyzed more deeply?

… No. I’m sorry, it just does not, I’m not going to entertain this. In this post, I’m going to deconstruct how the teas really work, and exactly why claiming that this is good enough proof that Kris would dislike Ralsei is an exaggeration at best and downright false at worse.

To truly make a precise conclusion, we must first look at the full picture. We know that 10 HP means “tastes like nothing”, and we know that 120 HP means “tastes amazing”, but are there any other reactions that aren’t either 10 or 120, aside from the 60 HP we already know from Ralsei tea?

Pictured: Noelle reacting to Kris tea.

Pictured: Kris reacting to Noelle tea.

Pictured: Ralsei reacting to Noelle tea.

Pictured: Noelle reacting to Ralsei tea.

I think what people forget here is that you don’t have to really adore someone or outright hate them. Sometimes you’re more neutral on people. And I think that’s what happens here. As you can see here, Ralsei recovers 10 less HP for Noelle than Kris does for him, and still calls her flavor “soft and sweet”. Meanwhile, Noelle claims his tea has “nothing in it”, even though she still recovers 50 hp.

Does this somehow mean Ralsei hates Noelle, or she hates him, for that matter? … No, that wouldn’t make sense, they just met, they know nothing about each other. We do learn here one important thing though, flavor is not tied to HP recovery, as in, the flavor of each character’s tea will taste different to a different person based on what they perceive of them.

As a comparative example, while Kris tea tastes like apple juice to Susie due to her always smelling the apple shampoo they use, Kris tea tastes like blueberries, which is a reference to Kris’ appearance in the Dark World. So while Ralsei tea tastes like nothing to Noelle as she can’t perceive him well enough yet, it still heals 50 HP due to it not being her own tea, and Ralsei heals for the same amount, but he seems to perceive others based on appearance and wants to find something good to say, so he ends up tasting it as something “soft and sweet” because that’s what Noelle appears like.

We can also gain a new “base” HP recovery that is accounted for when characters drink tea that is not their own: 50 HP. And we know 50 HP means “I was literally just made aware of your existence and can’t comment much on you yet”. Now, if you look at Kris and Noelle, they recover 70 HP from each other’s tea. In Noelle’s words, they have been neighbors their entire lives, yet they still find it hard to call each other friends, necessarily. Although you can choose the prompt “we’re friends”, the reasoning still stands: Kris and Noelle just don’t have that much to say about each other. If you remember, when you visit Rudy at the hospital in chapter 1, then Noelle afterwards, they’ll comment on how Kris usually isn’t as involved or interested in their neighbor’s business, suggesting they really don’t hang out as much as you’d think.

So, 50 HP, 70 HP. Where does that leave us for Ralsei’s 60 HP? Does it actually reveal evidence of hatred or at least dislike?

… The answer, if you’ve been paying any attention, is no, of course not. If 50 HP means “literally just learned the other exists” while 70 HP means “not exactly great friends but have known each other for a long time and shared memories”, then that puts Ralsei at a pretty advantageous spot all things considered. Even with him acting somewhat suspicious, even with him being a creature from an entirely new magical world Kris was made aware of literally a day ago, even with Ralsei’s clingy behavior, Kris considers him more than just some random person they just met, and almost a good acquaintance to the level of Noelle.

And sure, you could still bring up comparisons to the higher HP recoveries, like Susie recovering 120 HP from everyone despite also not really being exactly friends with any of these people for too long, and for that I will say…

That girl will eat anything and considering they are all flavors she enjoys she’ll obviously down it in a second, and

Susie is just… a more open person. Once you get her guard down and let her know you truly want to be her friend and think she is cool, she’ll immediately consider you a friend and part of her team. (It’s also kind of sad in a way because it shows she may be desperate for the feeling of belonging but let’s not get into that right now).

Kris, however, is a much more reserved person. Once again I must remind you how everyone in Hometown comments about Kris not usually being very outgoing or talkative. Hell, even when they drink Noelle tea, no one can tell whether they like it or not. Susie may be an exception to this rule, simply because they do have a lot in common, particularly to the fact she was also always an awkward quiet person that their classmates could never place and would often get in trouble. Even if she was mean to them and a downright bully in chapter 1, teens can still have some pretty weird appreciations, and you can tell they must have been wanting to befriend her from the start. It simply just is a better relationship to them. Otherwise, people they haven’t invested in knowing well will probably not cause the same reaction.

Bottom line is… why are we having this debate again? In the end, it feels rather silly. Yes, Kris doesn’t recover 120 HP from Ralsei tea. Big deal? That doesn’t mean they hate or even dislike him, that there’s a deep turmoil and conflict going on between the two already. Ralsei is just a new friend they are still getting used to, that’s it. Can’t blame the kid for having boundaries.

For further proof, if you learn more about the content that is being referenced here, you’ll learn that in the same chapter of the book, there is actually a way for one’s flavor to taste “horrible” due to a person being perceived that way, but at no point in these reactions it’s suggested anyone’s flavor tastes bad, that any of them are disgusted, so I doubt any of these reactions can be seen as dislike.

Dang… this got a little long… but I just felt like I had to make this post because, reiterating, I find myself a little irritated at the fact people will use the tea’s reactions as part of their theories, claiming it as actual proof, when it is far from proving anything.

And before someone brings it up, yes, Kris has been shown to prefer Susie over Ralsei, do I have to point out the flaw in that logic? Preferring someone doesn’t mean you outright dislike the other person.

Moral of the story is: Don’t take conclusions for your theories without good backing in canon, feel free to make your headcanons but don’t state it as proof, byeee.

[doge-w-a-bloge]

i dont think ralsei is evil but also i think he’s obviously mysterious and hiding things, and also he still doesn’t always respect susie and kris’ feelings... even if it turns out it’s just from lack of experience with interpersonal relationships, and not anything more deeply sinister.

he’s not 100%, unambigously “safe.“ there are things we don’t know about him, what he’s thinking, or what his goals are that create tension in the player’s experience of the game! that’s ok. real people aren’t 100% unambiguously “safe,“ even the most well-meaning ones, because you simply cannot know what is going on in other people’s heads or how they’ll act on those thoughts. This is something we always have to risk, when forming positive relationships with others.

And I feel like this sort of though is something that like... also applied to kris and susie, albiet in a different way. Susie is initially presented as fucking scary, both narratively and mechanically (via her attacking darkners without player imput), in chapter 1. Yet in chapter 2, her ability to flat-out ignore player commands she doesn’t like becomes if anything kind of... comforting.

Kris is also “scary,“ in how their non-possessed behavior is presented to us and what we’re told and shown of it. (As well as what we’re not shown.) They are a troubled, “creepy,” antisocial teen with edgy interests and also seem to have some kind of addenda we don’t fully know about! Some people take Kris’ obviously troubled nature (and parallels to Chara) as an immediate sign they’re Evil.

Other people will take Ralsei’s too-good-to-be-true fluffy-sweet presentation as a sign he’s secretly Evil.

Ironically, the delinquent girl who was introduced via her threatening to a kill a kid by biting their face off? Turned out to... not really be evil at all.

I don’t know where I’m going with this.

[funnywormz]

* ralsei!

YAYYYA ralsey my friend ralsei......... i don't talk abt ralsei much but i love him so get ready for an info dump lol

i'm going to structure the headcanons like a character profile thing bc i think that will be easier to read than just dumping them all in a paragraph. also pls bear in mind these are just my fav silly headcanons, it doesn't mean i necessarily think they're accurate to canon or that i dislike other ppl's headcanons (sorry if i'm overexplaining i thought i should add a lil disclaimer)

ANYWAYS!!!! ralsy headcanons time....... ..

pronouns: i think ralsei would be OK with any pronouns! maybe he would prefer he/they though

gender: personally i'm a big fan of nonbinary ralsei. he's kind of Boy Adjacent but i think for darkners in general, gender is less of a thing. he's just a little creature

age: i see ralsei as being around the same age as kris and susie, so like 15-18 somewhere. a personal little headcanon of mine is he's actually the youngest of the group, but everyone automatically assumes he's older bc he seems the most emotionally mature lol

sexuality: asexual and biromantic. i think it suits him :-)

Miscellaneous headcanons:

- ralsei is very brave i think. although he's gentle and friendly, he's not afraid to stand up to people and speak his mind. if his friends are in danger he will always do his best to protect them

- ralsei is an insecure person. i don't really mean that he dislikes himself, but i don't think he places much value on his own existence. i mean he's pretty much stated that he sees himself and other darkners as existing to please lightners. i think that he'd maybe struggle with doing nice things just for himself and thinking abt his own needs. it would be hard for him to learn to put himself first

- while i definitely don't think ralsei is secretly evil (and if he is i will be extremely mad and disappointed in toby tbh lol), i do think he's hiding things from everyone and that there's a lot of stuff we don't know abt him yet. i think he has good intentions, but only time will tell if he's leading kris and co. down the right path or not.

- ralsei, despite being kind and caring on a surface level, has a hard time dealing with complex emotions in other ppl (eg. his reaction to how kris behaves after the spamton neo). he tries his best but his responses can come off as unhelpful and shallow. it's not that he doesn't care, he just wants ppl to be happy, but he doesn't really understand that sometimes conflict and negative emotions are necessary.

- despite being a goat/goat adjacent, he has little paws with toe beans. this is canon i've decided

- he gets allergies in the spring/summer

- him and lancer end up being really close and kind of have a brotherly type of relationship

- he likes to watch random old soap operas

- he's crafty! he knows how to sew and knit and one of the aspects of his healing magic is that it heals rips/tears in clothes too, not just physical injuries

[agentravensong]

ralsei?

elaboration below the cut:

they got done DIRTY by fans: i feel like most people in the fandom either simplifies ralsei down to being a) the ultimate naive sweetheart b) this, like, Super Burdened character who has seen the horrors of war and knows this world better than anyone but is holding back for the sake of his friends, or c) straight up secretly evil. and, like, does ralsei know some of what's going on better than we or kris or susie do? almost certainly. but i also don't think he Really gets it, ya know? he might know some of the "truths" of this world, but i think there's more behind those truths he doesn't yet comprehend or has deliberately chosen not to think too hard about, and that him facing and questioning the good of those "truths" will be central to his arc. and i don't think he's actually evil (however we're defining that), but he's also not a meek polite pushover 100% of the time. he has his sarcastic, blunt, dismissive, even harsh moments (see his admonishing of susie in chapter 1 that leads her to team up with lancer). the truth is somewhere in the middle of those three.

i almost filled in "they're deeper than they seem" for him for these reasons but i feel like he is actually just as deep as he seems. i mean, he's a toby fox character, who's deliberately similar to one of the previous game's major characters. of course there's morally complex shit going on with him.

they've never done anything wrong in their life: this one is half-filled in because tbh he has (see the above), but he's trying, and like, I Get It.

they work better as part of a dynamic: this is more so about ralsei's potential. i want to see how the other characters push him more, make him question his assumptions, help him develop into a full person. i really like how his time with susie has made him question what being a good friend looks like, for example. more of that! i want kris to get to explain to him why he makes them uncomfortable and the two of them learning to be better friends to each other! i want more of him interacting and bonding with other darkners - lancer, seam, queen! i want scenes with him and toriel in chapter 3! etc. etc.

i want to carry them in a handbag like a tiny dog: he deserves to see the world :)

[farflypants]

If Ralsei is actually like, not secretly evil but, a part of something greater that happens to be evil it would make me very sad.

Um.

I can’t word it right but like. Anyone remember that episode of Batman the Animated Series where Robin spends the episode befriending a girl who’s in trouble and it turns out she’s like This part of Clayface that separated from him? And she saves his life but ends up reintegrating with Clayface. 

If Ralsei is actually something like that and he has to be reintegrated into the larger whole to save Kris and Susie and we never see him again I am going to cry huge tears of big sad forever.

[overfedvenison]

I know he's not really an otokonoko, but how do you feel about Ralsei (or Susie) from deltarune in terms of gender presentation?

The Undertale series involves some emphasis on representation, but always does so in a manner in which is then developed into deeper characterization. I think it's a good example of how you do those things; it has a lot to say and explore but it's treating these characters as characters. Really, that is part of it's success; it's rare to find even a one-off NPC that does not get some level of unique characterization. I think Ralsei is at least part of that; there is a recognition that a feminine male is a little rare to see in western media, maybe? But it doesn't totally inform his character; there's a lot more to him than that. As with many things in Deltarune, I feel like there's a lot of playing with RPG Cliches in this. I feel like Ralsei is a feminine male to match Susie as a masculine girl as one kind of playful inversion. The game also gave the Squishy White Mage role to the sensitive male character, and the Berserker role to the girl, when tradition dictates the opposite genders. So there's a lot of playing with RPG cliches here, and kind of inverting them in ways. This is interesting. ...And, more deeply, he kind of railroads you into saying things that make you care about him, as if this is setting up some kind of romance system that was common in Final Fantasy games. But, Kris themselves is only seems interested in Susie and maybe Noelle, and even has a fairly low healing with the Ralsei Tea you can get. So there is this other element playing with RPG cliches, where the squishy healer character is almost always the default love interest and it seems, without deeper analysis, to be leading to that here as well. So it's like, Ralsei is sort of playing with all these genre cliches in ways that are pretty interesting, and being this really feminine male character is a part of that deeper idea, if you understand me. But, yeah, it's also nice to have a character like that in general. Not to get toooo heavy on representation; like a sensitive and feminine male is not super rare nowadays, and there are reasons a character would act a certain way for a the plot or for deeper themes. But he has stuck a chord with players, and it seems like everyone who plays likes and appreciates him even when he is increasingly suspicious. I like Ralsei a lot, but he's less a character with a nontraditional gender presentation and more like a sensitive and feminine male character. Which is a different situation, as you noted in the ask. He's wearing a wizard robe, which despite being kind of feminine IS male clothing as far as I'm aware. That is not a bad thing; it's good to have characters like that, too. But I also don't have as much to say beyond like, "It's nice we have characters who are relatively feminine males and who aren't characterized as awkward and weird." ...But he is also super suspicious in-universe. He's hiding something important. I'm not on board with the theory that he is secretly evil or anything like that, but it has become obvious that something much deeper is going on. He also bears a name suspiciously close to "Rasiel," the ruling prince of second heaven in christian angelology who is ALSO charged with maintaining the beings holding up heaven's ground, and who ALSO wrote a book to guide notable humans. And like... A lot of other stuff.

So, it's like, there's a lot more to his story than what we have been presented so far. As is, he is a cute boy, and has made great ripples and has had a lot of fans because of it, and I have seen a number of people in the furry community adopt goat fursonas because they relate to him a lot. But more is to come, and what does come will probably change our perspective of him a lot. So I'm kinda commenting on like, the first 30% of a story arc

[decarabiandivorce]

Just thinking about how people bring up the Asriel and Ralsei connection and how they “might secretly be evil”.

But much like Kris, what if they didn’t have a choice

We have heard of Monster stealing human souls, but what about a <redacted> stealing a monster’s?

(You play as Ralsei and Kris + Susie win if they either defeat Ralsei in battle (Kris’s strat) or remind him of the friendship they had and his R-Action and makes your ACTs sarcastic(Susie’s plan)) 

[mythicaldemigoddess-of-deltarune]

The Pie Was A Distraction (Deltarune Theory)

I just realized that Kris (or whatever other entity beside the player is controlling them) wasn’t just going to eat the pie....and they may have sneak out to break into the library just to create a dark fountain that would act as a portal to the cyber world. 

I also want to say that I saw a video that talked about a theory that Kris may have more than one soul in them, one being their own and other being the player and someone else, so I am not the only one who believes that theory and it’s nice that someone else ended up coming to the same theory.

anyway I believe that the whole Kris taking out a knife just to use it on the pie, and then eat it........might only be a distraction to make us think that is all that Kris did with the knife, but in truth as soon as we could no longer see them and the credits started for Chapter 1, that gave Kris enough time to leave their house and go to the library and do the same thing they did in the very end of Chapter 2. 

what took away the Player and Kris’s control, was the third entity who makes us think that the only thing that Kris did with the knife was use it on the pie,

but in truth Kris didn’t eat the pie until they got home from opening a dark fountain at the library.

I also still believe that the Ralsei we see in Chapter 2, is NOT the same one we meet in Chapter 1.

one, the Ralsei we meet in Chapter 1 is around the same height as Kris.

while the Ralsei that appears in Chapter 2, seems to be a little taller than Kris.

my other theory is that maybe Falsei didn’t imprison the Ralsei from Chapter 1, but instead left him all alone in the dark world behind the delta rune doors.

Falsei is what I call Chapter 2′s Ralsei.

that Ralsei is just a bit more suspicious than the one from Chapter 1,

sure we the fans always had the theory might be secretly evil or that he was tricked by the man who speaks in hands.

but what if the Ralsei who is secretly a villain, might be the one who appears in Chapter 2, the Faux-Ralsei aka Falsei.

another theory I have is that the secret videos we find in the true lab,

is that the video talks about how Toriel is excited to have the child,

might be referring to Ralsei, like it could turn out that Ralsei could be from the Undertale Universe and isn’t just Asriel’s Soul taking form once it ended up in Deltarune and into the Dark World.

but everyone ends up forgetting about Prince Ralsei in Undertale, but that theory might be more fanon than canon.

the Toriel in Deltarune and the Toriel in Undertale have some appearance differences to them.

like the Deltarune version has a turf of hair on top of her head, and might have purple eyes while the Toriel from Undertale has red eyes.

most Undertale AU versions of Toriel do either have red or purple eyes.

I think the shadow crystals could be parts of Gaster that were scattered through time and space, and end up falling into the different lands of dark world.

it’s possible that Gaster does have Nonexistent Physiology, Void Magic and Omnipresence, like some fandom wikia that has a list of super powers had listed him with some of those powers.

 also I think Kris’s true soul might be turquoise (the blue turquoise color)

I also think the Red Soul might be a Artificial Soul created by Gaster and he might of been the one who gave Chara the idea about how to free every monster in the first place.

or Chara could be the name of the Red Soul that Gaster created, and the name of the first fallen human could of been Kris.

the different color flowers at Asgore’s Flower shop/home

didn’t have a Red Flower, this could mean that the Red Soul isn’t a trait in Deltarune and the Red Soul in Deltarune, could of been the same one from the Undertale Universe.

the third entity taking control of Kris during nighttime and creating the dark fountains around the Hometown, could be either a dark split personality of Kris or it could be Gaster or even a New-Chara.

the end of Chapter 1, where Kris takes out the knife and looking our way all creepy like before going to the credits and then it showing in Chapter 2 that they only ate the pie, is obviously a distraction from what they were really up to.

they did eat the pie, but not until they got back from the library where they created a dark fountain portal, and the Knight that they work for went into the dark world where Queen is and they the Knight ended up making Queen more worse than she was, so it only took a full night before the next morning for the brainwashing from the Knight to be fully completely.

it’s possible that whoever else is in Kris besides the Player,

they might be working for the Knight.

and there really could be more than one Knight.

and they all work for the Head Knight, who might be Gaster...?

Kris seemingly creating a dark fountain in their home in Chapter 2,

might not really be the only time they have created a dark fountain.

the dark fountain at the school, could been created by Kris when they were Frisk/Chara’s age.

the dark fountains might act as portals to other worlds, that the Darkners/Tulpa live.

Deltarune is possibly a Alternate Reality and Timeline,

and it is the Humans in Deltarune were banished to the underground instead of the Monsters, and many fans might believe that is true.

the banishing of the Humans in Deltarune might not be in the same way that the Monsters in Undertale were, and it could be possible that the underground that the Humans were banished to, was a Dark World.

the Dark World they are trapped in, might behind that secret red door.

unlike in Undertale, it hasn’t been centuries when the Humans were banished.

and it could of first happen when Kris was just a baby.

Kris could be around 14 to 15 years old, while Asriel could be around 18 to 19 years old.

so the Humans being banished into the underground/Dark World and ending up having to live with Darkners, could of been either around 14 to 15 years ago in Deltarune.

I’m only guessing that Kris and some of their classmates could be around 14 and 15 years old.

I’m guessing that Papyrus wont be shown in Deltarune until either 2023 or 2024.

we just have to try to have some patience.

not everyone has to agree about theories I mention in this,

but it is possibly true that Kris (or the third entity controlling them)

wanted us to believe that all Kris did was eat pie, but in truth that was not the only thing they did, and they didn’t eat the pie until after they got back from breaking into the library and creating a dark fountain portal.

Kris might have no memories of creating the portals to the dark worlds

or know about the third entity, we will have to wait for the secrets to be revealed and see if the fan theories turn out to be true.

like when darkners turning to stone was predicted as well as the other dark worlds and the whole Kris eating the Pie.

those are one of the best predictions a fan can make that can turn out to be canon.

the Pie was a distraction, to keep us from figuring out that the portal to the dark world in the library was created by the third entity who was controlling Kris.

the pie was probably not eaten by Kris until after they came home from making a portal to a new dark world.

if the Player does a Geno Route, we might give more power to the third entity.

the more we do a Geno Route, the more we give the third entity more power to take over Kris and giving us only a little bit of control.

not everyone has to agree with the theory that has to do with Kris sneaking out at night to break into the library just to make a dark fountain portal to another dark world.

but I see that as headcanon, and maybe other fans have figured this out too and came to the same conclusion.                    

[angel-starfait-movedtonewblog]

Chapter 2 thoughts and theories on Ralsei!!

I have a lot to say about this chapter tbh, and to be honest even after a day I'm struggling to puts my thoughts into coherent sentences. I dunno why???? Guess I'm just quite shaken and buzzed from this chapter (in a good way!!!)

I've also missed a lot of content since I've only played the the game once so far blind, so I'll have to go through it again!!

I'll try my best to write a few of my thoughts here. This post will go into everything I've been thinking about with Ralsei. Buckle up cause I have QUITE A BIT to say about him:

Now I love Ralsei, and this chapter did bot change that, he's a sweet pea and I genuinely love whenever he's on screen. But if I'm gonna be honest, I am incredibly suspicious of him.

Like?? How did he get to Cyber World without hopping into Kris' inventory like Lancer, and how did he not turn to stone like them later on??? And why did he wait until the end to tell everyone about 'The Roaring'?? ALSO HE JUST SAYS AT THE END OF THE GAME BACK AT HIS KINGDOM TO 'SAVE'. JUST. CASUALLY?? WHAT??? HOW DOES HE KNOW ABOUT THE SAVE FEATURE?

Also his conversation with Kris on the swan boat and how he said he missed Kris and Susie even after only a day of not seeing them, confirms him as quite a clingy person. He also seems to be a bit of doormat and a people pleaser, since he always wants to make sure Kris is included, and even let Queen dress him as a butler (although that's definitely for comedy). He even keeps saying that Kris should choose everything the party does. On the swan boat he even says something like 'Sometimes I wonder what it even means to be...'Ralsei'.' It's almost like he doesn't even have his own real personality...

This next bit is just speculation on my part, but it's possible that Ralsei is a incomplete husk of Asriel for Kris. He doesn't have his own opinions and just is the nice parts of Asriel, never giving his own thoughts or opinions, and always trying to be nice to everyone he meets.

He was also the only main character besides Kris in chapter 1 to NOT go through specific character development, like how Susie and Lancer did. He just... stays the same as he is, even in chapter 2. He stays happy and nice, just what someone needs, someone to tell them they're doing a good job, and never even oppose you. Seems like maybe a replacement for Asriel? I dunno.

Also, Ralsei seems to know a lot... even in chapter 1. Be knows Kris and Susie's names before even meeting them, he comments on Kris' soul during the fighting tutorial in a very similar way to Flowey, how the soul is the culmination of your being. And he is actively knows about how our choices could effect everyone else.

Ralsei could be kind of like an anti Flowey?? Yet also a sort mirror to Flowey. He seems innocent at first but seems to knows a lot more then he let's on, and he could have sinister intentions. Unlike Flowey however, Ralsei is a strict pacifist, and his one philosophy in life is to be nice to everyone, even enemies. He even heals the Spade King out of kindness, which in turn, causes the King to almost kill the party. This is both similar yet different to Flowey's philosophy of 'kill or be killed'.

Plus there was that whole connection of him to flowers on his offical t shirt on the Fangamer site, and how Toby commented on how Ralsei is 'always getting mixed up with flowers.'.

Obviously though, Ralsei seems to be a very kind person and has good intentions, and I don't necessarily think he's secretly evil and trying to trick us. But something about him is definitely off. Him and Undertale Asriel/Flowey seem to be two sides of the same coin, so Ralsei might have a lot more complexity and sinister nature than we see at first. I feel like Ralsei might be genuinely trying to fulfill the prophecy, but he's keeping some key information away, or being misguided in some form.

It's still too early to make any definitive statements, since Deltarune is supposedly going to have 7 chapters? But I will keeping and eye on the fluffy boy. He's got a lot to answer for in the future chapters. And whatever the answer is, it will probably make me cry.

[lilyhoshikawa]

Finished delta2ne last night. Final thoughts below, with spoilers:

:readmore:

1. I still hate Berdly. I appreciate his character arc fine enough but it was done pretty plainly and I’ve seen it done far better for much more likable characters. It just didn’t feel like enough, y’know? He’s a fine character just still not someone I’ve grown to actively like

2. Weirdly boomer move to pull the “addicted to screens” trope toward the end, it didn’t jive much with the rest of the themes of the chapter or Queen as a character and just felt bizarrely out of touch for a game that hits a lot of themes so intimately and beautifully

3. Shouldn’t have told Noelle and Berdly it was all a dream, that’s dumb. I’ve never liked the secret identities trope and having to keep it a secret from characters who played a major role and were really impactful on the story kinda sucks in a major way

4. The lesbianism should have been more explicit. I know it’s extremely blatant that Noelle and Susie have feelings for each other and are just blissfully ignorant but it’s a bit of a shame that whenever there’s been explicitly romantic feelings in Deltarune so far it’s been straight- Toriel’s ex-marriage to Asgore, Berdly’s explicit crushes on Noelle and Susie. Some more outright gay relationships would be appreciated. I also refuse to count Alphyne bc Undyne is a cop in this one which cancels out her gay status /s

5. Queen is very good, I liked her a lot. Aside from just being very funny and having a lot of great moments she was leagues more interesting as a villain than the King, who existed more as an intimidating figure to overcome and a force to facilitate development in Lancer than his own character

6. I’m a bit uncomfortable abt the like… very default Christian theming of Hometown? Toriel as a church mom, Gerson and his son as pastors and even having a significant subplot related to that, everyone in the town talking abt going to church and the prominence of the church as an object in the town, feels kinda… weird. Especially given that Hometown and the Dreemurr family especially are framed as ideals, the perfect town and community and the ideal family

7. Kris continues to be an icon. Eating moss, sniffing markers, making bath bombs, doing general feral activities

8. Lot of unanswered questions… I would try to list them but I can’t even remember all the loose ends the game introduced and hinted at future installments following up on, and just… gosh, I wish the full game was out, I want answers… and I wanna play more fndkfnf

9. The punch-out minigames were cute and fun, in general the chapter was significantly harder than chapter 1 but had a lot more unique ideas, battles and minigames as well as overworld challenges and puzzles. The final robot battle kicked ass

10. I don’t like Catti’s sorta weird implication that Susie will turn evil, something that’s kinda reinforced in a few places as well, just cuz it would be super uncool for the story to take that direction (imo), but it’s also weird bc Kris is like… the one doing what is “bad” in terms of the game’s story, the one facilitating the conflict is them, the Knight, y’know? So you can’t exactly have multiple secretly evil betrayal party members. There’s also a theory floating around online that Ralsei is secretly evil but I don’t personally think it holds much water

11. At one point Lancer calls Queen a “girldad” and that’s so powerful and so gender, god damn. I hope she continues to be a recurring character and I also hope Lancer just continues to collect dads like Pokémon

12. Kris being the Knight was a real cool twist but it’s surprising that we got it this early on. I was also very interested in like, the way Kris rips their soul out to stop letting the player control their actions, I dunno how that’ll factor into future events but I’m curious… like, if Kris will be the final enemy or what have you. Combined with the “your choices don’t matter” theme that keeps getting reinforced. It’s obvious that Kris is aware that the player is in control of their actions and is aware that by ripping out their soul- the means by which the player exerts their will on the character- and trapping it somewhere secure where it cannot be moved (as in battle) they can move about freely and do as they wish. My roommate theorized that there’s an additional external force controlling Kris when their soul is out but to me it makes more sense that the soul is just the embodiment or player influence- this is backed up a bit by the book on souls in the library which can’t determine their true purpose. So to me it stands to reason that Kris must have their own reasons for creating the fountains. I have multiple theories as to why but nothing concrete, one being just as Susie pointed out and was hinted at when the Lightner gang almost made a fountain, that being heroes in the Dark World has allowed these kids who were obviously very lonely (it’s repeatedly emphasized how much Kris misses Asriel and what a big deal it is for Kris to have made friends with Susie) to make friends and be important. The themes of the game so far as well as Undertale as prior knowledge kind of point toward the idea that the player is a force that influences the characters and this might not be a good thing, so Kris acting independently flies more on the path of that theme than a surprise evil influence, especially given Toby’s consistency in not writing completely malicious and irredeemable characters (I see all these ppl blaming Chara again as if they’re just some ultimate omnipotent malevolent force in the Undertale universe for some reason and I scoff), especially also since Kris’ independent actions take place offscreen, away from the player’s sight. My roommate also pointed out that Kris is the only human in the game and since we know from Undertale human souls are exponentially more powerful than monsters’ souls it stands to reason that Kris is A.) probably the only Lightner with enough Determination to consistently make fountains and B.) the only human in the entire game so far, which is coincidentally also the case with Frisk in Undertale, implying some innate ability of humans in this world to be controlled by players or that there would be some other complication brought on by having multiple humans in the Light World, presumably related to how souls interact and function. All just… super interesting stuff

13. Talked this over with my roommate as well and based on Ralsei not turning to stone in Cyber’s World like the other characters from chapter 1’s world combined with everything else (the hiding his appearance in chapter 1, his name literally being an anagram of Asriel, his knowledge of the Light World and people and places within it, his knowledge of humans and souls) it seems pretty possible that he’s just straight-up Asriel going undercover. These same pieces of evidence have been used to claim he’s secretly evil but they fit so much more neatly into place for me if he’s Asriel instead. It’s even stronger if Kris already knows this since it would reinforce my “Kris is making portals to see and spend time with their friends” theory

14. The scene where Susie stays over at the Dreemurr house was so pure and good it almost made me sob. Genuinely worried abt Susie’s potentially abusive home life (it’s vague but there’s implied Bad Stuff at home and I’m worried) but so happy to see her get to feel at home there. During the scene where Toriel calls the police abt the slashed tires I was so petrified that she was calling abt Susie and I was almost heartbroken

15. Susie, Noelle and Kris are probably my favorite characters so far, but honorable mentions to Lancer and Ralsei for just being funky little boys I’d love to hug and buy ice cream for

[mar64ds]

maybe its just me but does raIsei look like hes .. lonely? like hes always been eager to please since since chapter 1 and had this sort of "everythings ok ^w^" feel to him which made me feel like he was hiding something but in chapter 2 it seems hes even more eager to please now that hes made actual friends .. the way he kind of just goes along with everyone until he doesn't and suddenly gets uncharacteristically serious when the kids try to stay in the dark world .. it raises a lot of questions but it also makes me wonder if hes ever had anyone else, because of how he feels the need to put up a front for his friends so often. granted, i dont think that hes secretly evil and his niceness is entirely a facade, he seems to sincerely care for kris and co but hes def hiding smth imo. also when kris tells raIsei that they like ralsei for being raIsei he briefly slips and wonders what being himself would even mean to them .. :[

He definitely does, I think that’s his main fear and motivation, he made pretty clear in the first chapter that he was all alone in his kingdom and supposedly waited for someone like kris and susie all of his life

If we compare ralsei to asriel it’s a bit more concerning

asriel seemed to always fully trust chara even when they made bad decisions and then later on in the final battle of the game he states that he feels incredibly lonely and he would kill everyone only to keep resetting forever and keep ‘chara’ (frisk) with him forever

ralsei is the opposite on that aspect, he seems way too nice and way too helpful, but with the same goal of not ending up all alone. I also don’t think his niceness is fake or he’s faking being friends with everyone, but I do think he’s planning something that maybe he thinks is okay when it really isn’t, maybe someone else told him it was okay, maybe it’s a way to not be alone ever again, who knows. I don’t think Ralsei is evil but he’s hiding something bad

And yes that scene in general felt strange, it was like he was really surprised for having real friends, and that whole being himself part is so strange as well, I guess in a way you could firstly interpret it as ‘ralsei has never had true friends that like him the way he is instead of simply because he’s so helpful’, but we also have to remember that ralsei is definitely connected to asriel somehow so... ‘ralsei for being ralsei’ seems a bit more complex if ralsei isn’t even 100% ralsei somehow, it’s hard to explain since we barely know anything about him, but it’s still something to think about

[chikkou]

do you think Ralsei is secretly evil, or at best lying to both Kris and Susie about a lot of things?

i wouldnt say i think ralsei is evil, but i DEFINITELY think theres some things that arent adding up about him. like i find it very peculiar that he seems to know that the dark world is located in susie and kris's school when, to my recollection, none of the characters have mentioned that to him at all! he was also able to freely cross into the other dark world when he himself said that that should be impossible; we literally see lancer turn into a statue after being there for only a few minutes, so the fact that ralsei lasted as long as he did and seemingly without issue calls a LOT into question

i also am wary of his description of the roaring; i wonder how accurate it is, especially since he gives no explanation for what would happen if LIGHT were to overwhelm the world as opposed to dark. he makes no mention of light at all, in fact, which i find particularly notable since it seems like the light side aint all good given the way spamton acts, calling out for the angel of hyperdeath after he becomes NEO

theres definitely some shenanigans afoot with ralsei, and while i cant even begin to guess where toby is going with this, i think hes definitely set up quite a few clues for players to suggest that a part of the story is still missing

[abarelysapientpairofshoes]

As questionable as Ralsei telling Kris not to worry about Spamton is, I really don't think it's an indication of him being secretly evil or whatever. Personally I think it's more likely that he's trying to protect Kris from learning about the nature of... something. Probably the Angel or Heaven.

Was it misguided? Maybe, we just don't know enough about this stuff to pass judgement yet. Did he do it well? Absolutely not, but cut him some slack, he's been completely alone for most of his life.