#<-regarding both joker and bruce

[gece-misin-nesin]

i hate it when media portrays someone angry about what happened to them or loathing their abuser as someone who's 'letting anger control them' and 'not healing'. i don't see why unequivocally despising and hating the person who hurt you means you aren't/can't be healing. like, why does every character have to forgive and forget to heal? why can't characters just resent their abusive parents while still healing/having healed. why can't they be angry about their traumatic experiences without every other character telling them bullshit like 'you should forgive' or whatever? it's so fucking annoying AND entirely unoriginal.

[jasontoddenthusiastt]

I think fans want Jason to be a good person or be becoming one. To have a character that is well meaning and compassionate but decided murder is ok and to stand against main heroes who’s beliefs and actions go against the people he cares about and wants in his life. It’s confusing for people. People want their fav characters to be happy. But Jason can’t have his family’s support and follow his moral code. He’s cares about people and Gotham, and he’s an asshole who kills. It’s messy. It’s not black and white. I don’t even think Jason cares about being a good person or in the right anymore. I think he cares about what will save the most people instead.

Oh my goodness gracious I’ve been bamboozled

Batman’s definition of Good is not synonymous with absolute good/right no matter how much dc insists it is. Torture, battery/assault, surveillance, those are all condemnable actions too. I won’t get into the exhausting and frankly dumb debate of comic book morality wrt killing because I’ve already reblogged plenty of posts from other people who explained my thoughts on the matter far better than I ever have the patience to sit down and articulate. I also just think the notion that there’s something to be done about fictional characters who kill nazis and senseless murderers is stupid. Jason’s point is that the “main” heroes’ sanitized definition of right has its unaddressed holes and flaws which ultimately result in more preventable fatalities, and that he’ll work to correct those missing spots.

He doesn’t not care about doing what’s right. What he doesn’t care about (at least during his Winick characterization) is whether Batman thinks he’s right or wrong, because he sees the flaws in Batman’s methodology (and since he has a mind of his own). Batman’s methods alone cannot address Arkham’s revolving door and the rogues that come and go through those doors who have no intention (or capability from the doylist pov) of ever changing or undergoing redemption. Jason knows that he’s minimizing the number of preventable deaths by killing his targets, typically Characters Who Simply Do Fucked Up Shit Just Because, Why The Fuck Not?

Secondly, Jason is compassionate … to a fault. That was his fatal flaw. If he wasn’t so hell-bent on saving his potential birth mother he just met from that bomb despite everything she did to him prior, he could have protected himself instead, however slim his odds of survival were. What about his relationship with his other parents? He was a caregiver during his early childhood years for Catherine, until her death. Even mature adults who are financially stable find being a caregiver to a dying parent to be extremely burdensome on their bodies and minds, but he never complained about it or resented Catherine for being unable to care for him. Despite how none of his parents have really been what he needed them to be, he doesn’t blame them for their failings, and even continues to think highly of them (Bruce included).

And post-death? Enter Lost Days. Despite being dead set on plotting his revenge on Bruce, he constantly sidelines this in order to save other victims who are helpless like he once was. His own anger, trauma, and mission don’t remain his priority. (Sound familiar? Something something my own trauma above my son’s, mission above all else, etc.). Why would he waste precious time and risk his own life to do this if he wasn’t empathetic towards these victims or didn’t care about doing the right thing. He is simultaneously horribly traumatized and full of rage, and also incapable of ignoring what’s happening to victims around him (even as he claims that it’s indeed not his priority). And in that same vein, the entire premise of his rebirth outlaws run was that he doesn’t care if the public views him as a villain, an outlaw, so long as he can protect Gotham. And anyway where is this portrayal of him not caring about being in the right anymore. Almost every modern Jason story is about him grappling with where he stands with Bruce/Batman. During the early 2000s was probably the last time he did not care (hello, tentatodd??).

Jason has very evidently been portrayed as a kind and compassionate character. He is also simultaneously a calculated killer who doesn’t hesitate to kill when he deems necessary, and does so without remorse. It’s called being a Complex Character With An Edge™ that as you said, people so often claim to love. However when he fulfills that latter part, that seems to upset people because “killing bad”, and they then try to shave off and round out all his edges and claim he shouldn’t be that angry. In that case I guess you should just stick to liking traditional one-dimensional characters instead of claiming to like Jason but then encouraging his character assassination attempt by dc. Lol.

Lastly, who said anything about the batfam making Jason happy? Just because he’s written nowadays to want acceptance from Bruce (a shoddy attempt at forcing a non-existent nuclear batfamily), doesn’t mean that it’s a sound decision or that it does his character justice. I certainly don’t empathize with the idea that Jason needs the family’s approval or acceptance to be happy. (And anyway he has enough outlets for angst and pain aside from the batfam hello explore his other sources of trauma and do more deep dives into how he thinks when he’s alone). I don’t want them to magically make up and become one big happy family. This is not disney Lol. Besides, there are plenty of stories from dc that have that type of “wholesome” (hate that word utilization) characterization for Jason (Li’l Gotham, Tiny Titans, wfa, and even new stuff like the brave and the bold mini) and that is sufficient imo. Jason fans who are invested in the character deserve accurate, nuanced characterization and well-written stories, whether they be from his robin days (e.g., Batman: The Cult) or as red hood.

[thebibliosphere]

What do you think of the Telltale Batman games?

I went into it a bit on this post a while back (spoilers for the ending in the final reblog chain). But in quick summary:

Lots of fun. Well worth buying when it goes on sale.

Really love how much humor Bruce is allowed. His undercover persona as a dirtbag billionaire turning into a crime lord is a lot of fun.

Bruce and Selina get on like a house on fire with all the expected casualties of a house fire in Gotham.

Harley Quinn mob boss: YES YES YES

The game really said, 'BatJokes otp <3333'

ID: Two screenshots from the Batman: The Enemy Within Telltale game. Both screenshots depict a nighttime background in the city of Gotham. The top image shows the Joker, dressed in a green shirt dragging Batman, who is dressed in civilian clothes as Bruce Wayne, over a table by the collar of his leather jacket as he demands, “Why won’t you love me?!” while Bruce stares wide-eyed at him, lips parted in surprise.

The next image shows both men turning comically to regard a civilian at a nearby table who looks like he wants the floor to swallow him up just so he can get away from what looks like the weirdest public gay break-up going on outside the Gotham equivalent of a Starbucks at 4am.

---

I really enjoy the dialogue options you have as Bruce Wayne vs. Batman and the fact that you can play Bruce as airheaded or cunty as you like. He's either playing Bruce as a spoiled little rich boy or a well-meaning himbo with elevator music playing behind his eyes. There's no in-between.

Alfred is written out of character at the end, and it pulls the whole thing down.

I'd still play a third installment if they made one because I really want to enjoy Tell Tale style games; they just always seem to let me down a bit. But I want to believe...

[fancyfade]

Difference between Bruce and Dick as Batman.

So I know that there's a lot of temptation to compare Bruce as Batman to Dick or Damian, and Dick as Batman to Damian, often with a "oh well obviously Bruce was meaner/Dick was nicer", but I do think they have a neat contrast that fandom often overlooks (as well as some parallels).

Robin: Year One #3

Batmatn #408

Batman and Robin #6

Dick and Bruce both will deal with whatever current threat exists, before fully helping wounded Robin, getting a verbal "I'm fine" confirmation. They clearly do care about Robin. But they also have an obligation to protect people Bruce tries to physically stop joker. Jason's not fighting Dick, but he is trying to talk him down and talk him into getting help, like he did in Battle for the Cowl. The characters also generally avoid a wounded Robin -- it's just easier to see for Bruce, because Leslie calls Bruce out on it "you're leaving (to go deal with this?)" whereas no one questions Dick leaving Damian once he's got medical care and doing his own mission to revive zombie bruce. I imagine this is partially from guilt (we do see Bruce blaming himself for Dick's close call, and Dick framing Damian as his responsibility in Battle for the Cowl) and also possible due to the whole 'batman has a job, robin's physically OK now so time to help protect people' thing.

A strong difference is after the character's get injured and treated. Bruce becomes overprotective, and continues being emotionally distant, which understandably upsets Dick. He is so overprotective he benches Dick each time he is wounded seriously, and that creates friction between them.

Robin: Year One

Batman #408

Contrast this to Dick's general lack of protectiveness. Nothing changes when Damian gets wounded as Robin. Which works well (emotionally) for Damian and it works for the conventions of the genre.

Dick is generally not portrayed as very emotionally overprotective when Damian is injured, and when Damian is captured, he often expresses more verbal concern for the people who captured Damian than Damian himself.

Batman and Robin #9 - Damian, with a new metal spine, got thrown off a building by the zombie batman dick accidentally revived.

Batman and Robin #13

Detective comics annual #11

I should note: I think it would be uncharitable to assume that Dick expressing more verbal concern that Damian will hurt the supervillains who have him kidnapped means Dick doesn't care about Damian. We see in Batman and Robin some of Dick being worried when Damian is shot, and we see Dick telling Azrael they need to find a quicker way to get to Damian when Azrael is talking about how to find the guys who took him. And also, you know. I just don't think Dick would care more about the supervillains that Damian. But Damian is regarded as a tough kid, he'll be fine no matter what, and he represents a threat to other people (interestingly, something I've seen fans accuse... Bruce of doing to damian? Even though Bruce was much more protective and wasn't worried about Damian killing Nobody when Damian was going with Nobody, or Damian killing the Saturn Club guys when Damian let himself by kidnapped by the Saturn club guys to find civilians to rescue)

But I am analyzing here the actions he does and the words that he says, and what the writer dedicates panel time to. I think it's interesting that Bruce and Dick's similarities with regards to Robin getting injured involve emotionally removing themselves from the situation and focusing on cases, and then their differences are in the follow up. Dick often maintains a status quo, which is satisfying to the Robin character (he does not feel like he's being fired or judged) and fits with the conventions of the genre. Bruce often becomes overprotective to a degree where the Robin character feels estranged from him, and is excluded, resulting in alienation from robin and coming across as the "bad guy".

I find it very interesting that Dick avoids repeating mistakes of the past that Bruce made (becoming overprotective of Robin to an alienating degree and firing him) by doing things that would be read as callous or uncaring to the reader if he wasn't Dick, I guess.

P.S. I know some people say this is why they regard Morrison's Dick as OOC, but I didn't have any place to fit that acknowledgement in the above paragraphs, but I think it's important to note that this was not just Morrison's Dick. In general Dick as Batman era was way different than Nightwing Rebirth era Dick or even post 2011 Dick.

[aalghul]

damian is clearly biased in his misinterpretation of jason in boy wonder

damian's interpretation is supported by the story itself; it is clear that you are not meant to take it as a misinterpretation. the hostage narrator (who isn't damian) establishes dick, jason and tim as being nice, angry and reckless, and smart (respectively) in the first issue. nothing is done from then on to either challenge or add depth to any of these.

ignoring both damian and that narrator, even the story itself proves the mindless "nice robin, angry robin, smart robin" categorization. dick's issue even goes so far as to misconstrue his conflict with bruce when he was 18 as being, essentially, "dick wanted bruce to be nicer". jason's status as the reckless robin is reinforced when the comic spells out for the readers that jason (and damian) need batman to supervise them, otherwise they will not think anything through and instead attack like animals. jason's recklessness could not be made clearer by the writer.

this ends with jason hallucinating the joker (surprise, surprise) and then he just starts randomly shooting (which is something he is prone to do when the joker is involved, apparently. under the red hood and lost days, and all of jason's deliberation and planning regarding the joker, must have just been mass hallucinations that all of us had) and damian ends up shot. once again, jason hurts an innocent person because another writer doesn't have the reasoning skills to come up with a logical argument against jason using guns/killing, so they need to create a specific instance (which would be unlikely to happen were he written in character) in order to counteract his entire methodology.

rather than challenging the characterization of jason where anger is most structurally vital to his actions, the story repeatedly defends it. to the point where jason himself brings up the anger instead of anything else. the writer goes a step further and has jason's anger blind him enough to kill the murderers of a victim who did not want jason to avenge him in blood. jason is himself motivated by the perspective of a victim who wants to choose what is done to avenge him, it's senseless to have him ignore the wishes without any internal conflict.

the ending of this issue is literally damian telling jason that jason is the only person standing between himself and reconciliation with bruce. this implication existed in the beginning of the issue as well, with the narrator claiming that jason's gripe with the joker being alive was pointless because the joker's locked up, regardless of the fact that jason first found out joker was still alive when he saw that joker had escaped and hurt people again.

so. there is no misinterpretation. you're supposed to nod along and agree. jason is angry and reckless, and he ends the issue ruminating on the thought that he should made amends with bruce, who has been freed from any responsibility by this point.

[linkspooky]

Art credit: @/charscounterattack reposted with permission.

INVINCIBLE VS. MY HERO ACADEMIA: WHEN HEROES KILL

Whether or not heroes should kill people is a hotly debated topic in comics.

There are people who think heroes should never kill, and others who think heroes should kill more. One of the most famous comic book storylines "Under the Red Hood" has Red Hood / Jason Todd debate whether or not it was ethical for Bruce to keep letting the joker live even after the Joker killed Jaso, especially after the Joker killed Jason. If killing the Joker earlier to prevent all future deaths would have been justified. There are like a hundred DC Aus that are like "What if Batman and Superman just started killing people?"

In order to explore this question I'm going to explore two situations in different comics, Invincible and My Hero Academia when the hero, a very idealistic young hero kills someone for the first time.

LET HORI COOK

Storytelling, especially for serialized storytelling which comes out week by week instead of all at once works on the premise of drawing people in by promising that certain future developments and plot points are going to happen. Stories are all about creating expectations, building them, and then paying them off.

Here's an example: The Dabi is a Todoroki theory has existed pretty much since the training camp arc. Horikoshi wasn't in your face about the hints about Toya, but there was just enough hints to make the theory seem more and more plausible. Toya having the same fire quirk as Shoto / Endeavor. Toya mentioning both of them by name. Shoto's two other siblings getting revealed but not Toya. Toya saying that Hawks should have paid attention to him most of all. All of these little pieces came together until Toya finally revealed his identity on live TV in front of both Shoto and Endeavor.

This worked because not only did it give the audience just enough clues that they felt smart for figuring it out, and get invested in the idea of Toya as a Todoroki, it also was well-paced so it didn't seem like Horikoshi forgot about it unlike the traitor plot which went hundreds of chapters without being mentioned. If Toya was revealed to be a Todoroki at the training camp arc with no buildup, it wouldn't be as effective bcause we didn't have years of waiting and theorizing. If Todoroki was revealed to be some guy named Steve after all the hints, it also wouldn't be an effective reveal because there were hints dropped for Toya Todoroki, but there were no Steve hints so it'd feel like the author lied to us.

Themes are like this too. I tend to explain story themes by oversimplifying it as "Question, and answer." The story asks a question, it provides us an answer, and we can come up with our own answer as well. However, there's a middle part I'm skipping out on which is deliberation. Before you can come up with an answer, you obviously need to deliberate it, either by presenting arguments for or against, hearing outside opinions or just thinking things through.

In other words, you need to "Let things cook."

If Toya calling Shoto by his full name at the Training Camp Arc is when we're first asked "Is Toya a Todoroki?" or when the theories first started, then the long middle period between Training Camp Arc and the First War Arc is the deliberation. This is when the story not only added more hints to the idea that Toya was a Todoroki, but also set up why that reveal mattered. Endeavor wanted to atone for his past sins, but one of his victims was no longer alive. Endeavor begins to move on anyway and think he's finally made himself a good hero, but now Toya appears to flip up the reverse Uno Card.

So let's follow this basic formula, for how ideas get developed in My Hero Academia and just any good story.

Question / Introduction

Deliberation

Answer / Conclusion

My Hero Academia and Invincible explore similar themes in regards to heroism, generational trauma and how to be better than the previous generation in both Mark and Deku. I'm going to streamline their arcs down to one basic question for the sake of time. For both the question is:

Can I be a better hero than my Dad?

Deku and Mark might be two characters who cannot possibly seem to be more different, but you can actually list off a lot of similarities between them right away. Deku and Mark are both people who in a world oversaturated with superheroes spent most of their childhoods with no superpowers at all. Also, they were genetically supposed to inherit a quirk / viltrumite powers, but Deku was born quirkless, and Mark was an extremely late bloomer. They are also people who while being powerless civilians for most of their lives worship heroes. Deku collects so much All Might Merch he even stole some from Nighteye after he died, Mark attends comic conventions even after he becomes a superhero.

They also grew up worshipping one hero in particular who was essentially earth's strongest hero, for Mark it was his dad Omni-Man, for Deku it was All Might. They also both get the opportunity to train directly under their favorite hero immediately after they get their powers. At first this makes it seem like they've been given everything they've ever wanted. All Mark has ever wanted was to be a hero like his dad and make his father proud. Not only did Deku just want one person to tell him he could be a hero too even without a quirk, but his very idea of heroism is built around seeing All Might always save people with a smile.

However, both of them suddenly hit complication just when it seems like they've been given everything they've ever wanted. They are both confronted with the fact that their heroes are not who they expected them to be. They are overly idealistic heroes who have been dreaming of being heroes since childhood only to be hit with a much greyer reality. To the point where there innocence becomes a flaw in and of itself. The way they've been coddled and protected all of their lives leaves them completely unaware and unable to spot the grey areas in the world, or the people around them.

For Deku the moral greys exist in the villains around them. In MHA Society, villains are basically just bad guys in suits for the heroes to punch on television. They're seen as a faceless enemy, and there's very little in way of rehabilitation for villains once they're captured. Deku lived in a very black and white world before this point, and he's suddenly presented with the idea that his villains could be morally grey.

Deku's image of All Might is a hero who saves everyone with a smile, so he could never imagine that there are people who All Might has failed to save. He's never stopped to consider where villains came from, or if any of them might have legitimate reasons for their grievances.

This becomes a pretty central theme in MHA. It's first brought up here when Shigaraki talks about All Might acting as if there's no one he can't save. Twice brings it up again in his first backstory chapter, that the heroes only save the virtuous ones.

This is further enforced in the same overhaul arc with members who are loyal to Overhaul because they are society's trash who would have been thrown out otherwise. There is a group of people fiercley loyal to Overhaul who is a terrible boss, because he is the only person who would accept them.

edits belong to @stillness-in-green from bring it all back a tone poem on returning to staus quo located here on ao3.

In the War Arc this long running theme basically reaches a climax with the Hawks and Twice confrontation, where Hawks decides to try to offer Jin a chance to restart because he's deemed him "good" but he won't extend the same helping hand to the league who Hawks has determined as "bad." He then asks Jin to betray his friends in order to be saved, something that Jin rightfully calls out.

That Hawks only wants to save Jin because he's one of the good ones, and he's written off the rest of the league and left them for dead. Hawks choosing to divide between good and bad victims ad only save the one he personally thought was worthy of redemption, makes it impossible for him to save Twice who would never under any circumstances give up on the rest of the league.

Twice's death is a tragedy, but it also presents us a clear example of the failures of the previous generation. Even a hero who sincerely sympathized with a villain and wanted to help them start over wasn't able to help them because of this attitude of selectively picking and choosing who to save. If the heroes only save the innocent the I guess the lives of the guilty are worth less.

This is the questio Toga poses to Ochako, if the heroes killed Twice then are you going to kill me in order to stop me. This is the central subject of Shigaraki's speech to the heroes. That heroes and villains will never uderstand each other, because the entire hero system perpetuates itself on ignoring the needs of societal outcasts and rejects in form of the "innocent people" and those outcasts who aren't having their needs met eventually turn into villains who get systematically put down by heroes. Heroes and villains are incapable of understanding each other and breaking the cycle, because the entire system isn't built on helping people, but merely maintaining the idea that heroes are perfect, faultless saviors so normal people will feel secure, while the people the heroes have failed get swept under the rug so society can keep "functioning."

"You heroes hurt your own families just to help strangers. You heroes pretend to be society's guardians. For generations, you pretended not to see those you couldn't protect. That means your system's all rotten from the inside with maggots crawling out. It all builds up, little by little, over time. You've got the common trash, all too dependent on being protected, and the brave guardians who created the trash that needed coddling. It's a corrupt, vicious, cycle. Everythig I've witnessed, the whole system you've built has always rejected me. Now I'm ready to reject it. That's why I destroy. That's why I took power for myself. Simple enough, Yeah? I don't care if you don't understand. That's what makes us heroes and villains."

So if the starting question is: Can I be a better hero than my dad?

Then everything I've detailed above is deliberation. Here we have, ever since the training camp arc, this slowly built up idea of why All Might was a flawed hero in the end.

Mark has to face the fact that his father is a more morally grey person than he could ever imagine, whereas Deku has to face the fact that the villains are more morally grey in his world, and that makes the heroes look more flawed in comparison as well. The deliberation is all slowly bringing Deku to think over what Shigaraki asked him all the way in the beginning in there first meeting.

Were there ever people that the heroes couldn't save? If so then what are you supposed to do with the victims you can't save after they grow up? This is when Deku begins to start forming his own answer.

Deku hears the advice of both the other OFA users, and The Stinky Old Man (Gran Torino) that killing Shigaraki is the best option, but wants to explore other options.

Scenes like this clearly telegraph what the answer / conclusion Hori is leading us to to be. The same way that Toya is a Todoroki is foreshadowed long in advance, statements like "All for one is a power meant for saving, not killing" clearly set up Deku's Endgame. Deku's end goal is to find a way use his power to save Shigaraki rather than killing him. Everything else is just a matter of deliberation, Deku knows what his edgoal is but the chapters between then and the end of the manga is Deku having to figure out how exactly to save Shigaraki without killing him.

You Heroes Hurt Your Own Families Just to Help Strangers

Invincible is the story of Mark Grayson, the son of Omni Man / Nolan Grayson. He's been told all of his life that his father is a viltrumite, a race of benevolent aliens who send out people like Nolan to alien civilizations in order to uplift their entire civilization. Which is what led Nolan to come to earth and become Earth's greatest heroes.

This turns out to be a big fat lie when within 12 chapters Nolan not only slaughters the guardian's of the globe, but also has a confrontation with his son.

Mark has wanted to be just like his dad his entire life. Only to be slapped in the face with the realization he's known nothing about his dad his entire life, shown rather brilliantly by these panels where Nolan tries to have a normal father / son conversation with Mark while covered in blood.

Nolan isn't from a futuristic utopia but from a brutal, fascist space empire. He didn't come to earth to help bring it up, but to weaken its defenses and make it prime for conquering. He didn't have Mark out of love, but to produce another soldier for the viltrumite empire.

Mark's entire schtick is that he's invincible, but he's so inexperienced as a hero that he gets beat up constantly despite the fact he has the strongest power set in the series b/c he has viltrumite powers. However, not only does the series introduce moral greys by continually showing how Mark even with the best power set in the series constantly gets his ass kicked, it also challenges Mark's black and white thinking and hero worship of his father by showing him the kind of man his father really is.

Mark has wanted to be exactly like his father his entire life, but now that's suddenly a bad thing. His father is a morally reprehensible person and Mark is now a descendant of an alien race meant to conquer worlds. Not only is Mark confronted by who his father really is, but now everyone in Mark's life judges him by comparing him with his father.

Mark has to work with Cecil and be his on-call Superhero, both to be able to pay for college, and also to prove that he's not his dad. The unspoken part of the agreement is that Cecil gets to keep a leash on Mark and Mark has to prove that he'll never turn out like his father to earn Cecil's trust.

Cecil is automatically suspicious of him because if Mark were to turn evil, the planet would have no defenses against him just like it didn't have any for Omni Man. Mark's mother starts to drink and blames Mark for Omni-Man leaving in a drunken moment of weakness because of how much the information that Omni Man only regarded her as a pet affected her.

The comic even shows us that in most alternate universes, mark actually did make the decision to join his father's conquest, and this universe is one of the few exceptions. This is also where we're introduced to a major reoccuring antagonist in the comics, and also the main antagonist / final antagonist of season 2 of the cartoon Angstrom Levy.

Levy is someone who can jump between dimensions and has traveled to almost all of them collecting his alternate selves. He has witnessed for a fact that in most universes Mark sides with his father instead of fighting against him.

Levy enlists the clone bros to build a device that would combine the knowledge of his alternate selves into one individual. This device ends up breaking tragically (partially mark's fault, but levy himself made the decision to stop the machine in order to stop the clone bros from killing Mark). Levy's memories become confused as a result of the machine malfunctioning, and he can't tell the difference between himself and his alternate universe counterparts. This means that Levy now remembers several alternate universes where Mark did turn evil, and remembers them as if they happened to him.

It's better elaborated upon in this post:

The process by which Invincible has had to condense and consolidate the plot beats of the original comic, coupled with the opportunity it's granted the writers to tighten up and emphasize its themes on a second pass, has resulted in a newfound appreciation for how unbelievably fucking good Angstrom Levy's whole character concept is. What's that, Mark? Your main emotional crisis this season is your fear of turning out like your father? Here, have an archnemesis who's out to kill you because his memories were inadvertently overwritten with the lived experiences of hundreds of alternate versions of himself whose friends and families were slaughtered in worlds where you did, in fact, turn out exactly like your father. Because it turns out that that is in fact the multiversal norm. That you turn out like your father. And now you're left to wonder what set of arbitrary coinflips pulled you back from that abyss in this dimension, and whether your luck is going to continue to hold into the future.

Mark is not only hit with the revelation that his father isn't as good as he thought he was, but also while he's in a crisis about about whether or not he will turn out like his father, he learns the answer is yes, in several dimensions he turns out exactly like his father.

In My Hero Academia there are families like the Todoroki's who balance the difference between a hero's obligations to society, and a hero's obligation to society. However, that's a side plot where I'd argue that the main plot for Invincible and it's main focus is what Mark owes to the world as a hero, and what Mark owes to his family.

It's not just that Omniman is trying to invade earth for the Viltrumite empire. It's not just that he failed as a hero, but that he failed as a father. What makes Mark snap, is hearing Omniman call Debbie a pet. Until that point Mark was in denial and still trying to reason with his father.

Invincible is about two intersecting themes: Is Mark obligated to use his incredible powers to help make the world better? Can Mark be a good hero and a good family man?

While MHA has more far reaching societal implications in its themes and questions, Invincible is more specifically about the Grayson Family. It's generational trauma on a society level, vs generational trauma on an individual level. The way Nolan was raised on Viltrumite effects how he raised Mark causing their conflict, and Mark's conflict with his father effects most of his young adulthood when he's trying to figure out what person he wants to be (read: not his dad), but also the way he parents his daughter with Atom Eve.

Omni-man failed Mark as both a hero, and a father. Mark feels the need to overcompensate for what his father did the world and all those innocent people by acting as Cecil's lapdog and doing whatever Cecil tells him.

However, Mark is much more hurt by the personal betrayal than he lets on. It's not just that his father killed a bunch of innocent people, it's also that Mark's father failed as a father, abandoning both him and mom and choosing to be a viltrumite rather than being Mark's father. Mark's stated reason for wanting to be a hero post the omni-man reveal is to prove he's not like his dad to the world, and also make up for the innocent lives he failed to save. However, his unstated underlying reason is Mark is hurt and betrayed his father didn't put his family first, and this causes Mark to always put his family first.

This leads to two insecurities / narrative flaws. One, Mark is insecure about becoming like his father so he tries to prove he's nothing like him by being the most selfless, perfect hero possible. Two, Mark is hurt by being abandoned by his father and doesn't want to become a deadbeat like Nolan so he gets extremely overprotective of his own family.

These two things are obvious in conflict with one another: A hero has an obligation to the common good which sometimes means sacrificing time with your loved ones. However, being a good family man requires a level of selfishness that directly contradicts the selfless hero that Mark is pushing himself to be. In the comic the way Mark prioritizes his family and loved ones over the common good and justice is made even more obvious. His first instinct on seeing Omni-Man again isn't to call him out for being an awful father, but to hug him and ask him to come home. Mark is a distraught son first, and a hero second.

Mark has two flaws, his fear of being like his father makes him try too hard to be a perfect hero, and his trauma over losing his father makes him prioritize his family over being a hero. It's very much a having your cake and eating it too situation, oftentimes heroes make huge sacrifices for their personal lives in order to be heroes, that's basically a theme discussed in the comic with Nolan being absent for a lot of Mark's childhood, and why Mark's relationship with Amber fails.

The show also introduces us to the idea that Mark is so afraid of becoming like his father that he deliberately holds back his punches. Which is good when he's fighting earth villains, but bad when he's facing viltrumites who can only survive being disemboweled, but will also come to wipe out all life on earth if they're allowed to live. In the show it's directly mentioned that Mark is holding back, in the comic it's implied when we see how helpless Mark is in the fight against other viltrumites. Mark lacks the resolve to kill someone and when fighting a viltrumite, failing to put them down can have consequences because they are galactic conquerors who will not show you any mercy.

This all comes to a head in the Angstrom Levy fight where Mark makes his first kill on-screen when beforehand he'd never fought to kill before, and even held back against galaxy conquering aliens who were out to murder him and his dad.

However. before we begin that.

Should superheroes kill?

People often act like whether or not super heroes should kill their villains is a black and white topic, where it actually depends highly on context.

Batman’s an entire character is written around how he wants to redeem Gotham and save the city, most of his villains aren’t even sent to prison they’re sent to Arkham a facility that’s supposed to rehabilitee the mentally ill so they can rejoin society. Batman has decided it’s his place to stop crime, not his place to decide whether or not people have the right to live or redeem themselves.

Batman is also at risk for being just like his villains, that’s why he’s foils with Harvey Dent, someone who tried to prosecute people under the law who then snapped and went full violent mobster vigilante. Batman actually is at risk for walking the same path as Harvey if he decides murder is an option.

In X-Men 97, there was a character known as Rogue who dropped Simon Bolivar Trask off of a building in an act of vigilante justice. This action makes sense in context for several reasons. One Rogue was raised by Mystique and Destiny, is a former member of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, and began as a terrorist in the comics. She's not really a "moral highground" character like Batman. Two, Boliver Trask built a giant killer robot that resulted in the deaths of millions in Genosha which Rogue is a survivor of. Number three, Trask had no sympathetic reasons for building the genocide robot, he built the sentinels out of bigotry to wipe out mutants. He's not a victim in any way, he's an oppressor facing consequences for his actions.

Batman shooting Harvey Dent, his former best friend, a victim of severe mental illness and trauma that still has hope for recovery, and Rogue dropping the guy who made a genocide robot off of a building are both wildly different situations.

So in the context of MHA we have Shigaraki Tomura, a terrorist who's goal is to destroy japan enough that it will dismantle the hero system for good. Shigaraki Tomura is a ten year old child who lost control of his quirk and killed his family for mistake, he wandered for days in crowded city streets but not a single hero stopped to help him, then he was found by the main villain of the story and groomed for ten years into becoming his successor. Shigaraki is also surrounded by a group of societal outcasts who were failed by society in similiar ways, so Shigaraki knows he wasn't the only one failed by hero society and he starts to wage his war for their sake as much as his own.

In Invincible we have Angstrom Levy. Angstrom is not plotting mass murder the way that Shigaraki is. He is specifically only targetting Mark Grayson's family for revenge (at least the first time he showed up, the second time during the invincible war arc was different). Angstrom's revenge against Mark Grayson is misplaced, but to be fair the accident messed with his brain hardcore and he doesn't remember clearly what happened. He doesn't remember that he's the one who decided to stop the machine in order to help Mark. It's tragic. Angstrom also has the memories of like hundreds of different universes of evil Marks. Even though he's the victim of a tragic accident, he's also a victimizer in that he doesn't choose to just go after Mark, he deliberately picks Mark's family, his mother, and his infant little brother as a way of hurting Mark.

So both of these characters blur the line between villain and victim, but neither of them are like Trask in that they have no sympathetic motivation whatsoever. Shigaraki's actions don't come from bigotry, and he's not an oppressor. Trask was actually trying to do something good before his machine broke and his brains got scrambled, and now he wants personal revenge and to blame all his problems on Mark which is petty yes, but not on Trask's level of heartlessness.

So, there's a case that can be made here for both of them that there's room to save them. After all Mark and Deku aren't killers to begin with. Mark especially has an incredibly vested interest in not becoming a killer. Even if they don't explicitly go out of their way to save and redeem these two people, we're still at this point expecting the heroes to at least take down these two sympathetic figures non-lethally. Mark doesn't want to be like his dad and Deku has said explicitly he wants to save Shigaraki, and that OFA is a power for saving and not killing.

Also to sidestep this argument before people comment on my post with it.

What do you expect the heroes to just let a mass murderer live?

YES!

It happens in comics literally all the time.

Magneto, Wolverine, Jean Grey / Phoenix, Emma Scott, heck, OMNIMAN himself, all characters who have killed lots of people and all characters who get to live and even be on the heroes side. Of these three Jean Grey of all people has the highest body count.

Shonen Jump also has Vegeta. Have you ever heard of Vegeta? Most popular Shonen Rival of all time? Omni-man and Viltrumites are basically just Saiyans.

In real life they wouldn't let a mass murderer walk away but comics are not the same as real life. That's why characters are always punching dinosaurs all the time. Fun fact, if you were to try to punch a dinosaur in real life it would probably hurt your hand. I would advise against it. Dinosaurs are for the most part much stronger than human beings.

As I outlined above Shigaraki and Angstrom are different characters than Trask. They might all be murderers, but the first two have sympathetic elements and are humanized, they are victims of oppression (Angstrom's been killed by viltrumites in a whole bunch of worlds) whereas Trask is an oppressor.

So for both of these stories we are not expecting to see Deku and Mark kill their final villains (for the series and for this season). Deku because he's spent the final third of the series trying to work out a way to save the villains, and Mark because he doesn't want to turn out to be a violent murderer like his father so he's trying to be the most selfless, most perfect hero ever.

I THOUGHT YOU WERE STRONGER

So we finally reach the scenes in question and I thought I'd compare them without much commentary, just highlighting what happens without adding much spin.

So the final episode of Invincible Season 2 and Issue #33 of the comic is where Angstrom and Mark have it out. Angstrom appears in Mark's home and threatens his family. he brings up the comparison between Mark and his father right away. This is also something Angstrom has seen first hand by traveling to multiple universes where Mark has sided with his father.

In the cartoon he's a lot more confused because he's constantly remembering other universe's memories as if he were his own so he genuinely thinks he's taking down an evil viltrumite, in the comic he's being more petty and blaming Mark for his deformity (I think he doesn't remember that he was the one to take the helmet off by choice). In both versions he uses Mark's family as hostages to keep him from fighting back as he tries to send Markk to his death in several different realities.

Angstrom then ups the threat of violence from holding them hostage to threatening to kill them. In both the show and comic he brutally breaks Debbie's arm. Mark is sent through several more realities, only to discover that Debbie's arm is broken and lose his temper.

Mark and Angstrom's fist fight comes to an end, and while Mark has him on the ground he keeps hitting and hitting and hitting long after Angstrom stopped fighting back. Which is what prompts the famous "I thought you were stronger..."

Now, in this situation it looks pretty justifiable that Mark attacked Angstrom so aggressively,. it was self defense for one against a man trying to kill him and he only got truly aggressive after he saw his mother's arm get broken. Not only that he didn't intentionally kill Angstrom, you can argue he went too far in a case of clear self defense. Other people even tell Mark that this one isn't on him, including Cecil who compares Mark to his father the most.

Then, why is Mark so disturbed?

It's because this....

Is a deliberate parallel to this...

It's not just that Mark killed a man, it's that he killed a man by pounding on him relentlessly long after he'd stopped fighting back the exact same way his father did to him during their fight.

There's a difference between Mark say, fighting against a viltrumite and making a deliberate decision to kill them because of the danger that viltrumites represent to other people considering they are planet conquerors, and Mark killing this man because he lost his temper and couldn't control his own strength.

Mark spends the entire season trying to not be like his father, only to see first hand that he's capable of the exact same violence that his father is. The last episode of Season 2 summarizes this moment pretty perfectly in a montage of season 1 moments while Mark screams and breaks the sound barrier trying to push his viltrumite powers to their limits.

Mark: I'm strong enough and I can do this. It's all I've ever wanted for as long as I can remember. I want to do what you do. I want to be just like you. Omni-Man: You will be, son. You will. Mark screaming. Omni-Man: You'll outlast every single fragile being on this planet. You'll live to see this world crumble to dust and blow away. Everyone and everything you know will be gone. Mark screaming. Cecil: You know who else said that to me? Mark: I'm not my dad. Mark screaming some more. KRegg: Your father will be execute and you can return to earth. You will assume the mission to prepare earth for our rule.

So not only is Mark hit with the realization that he's just as capable of being violent and angry as his father is. He also is being forced by the situation to become more violent out of pragmatism, because if he doesn't get strong enough to fight viltrumites then they're going to come to his planet and take everything.

Not only has Mark lost some of his innocence, he's also being forced to throw the rest of it away. It's why Mark drops out of college at the end of the season because any pretense of balancing between his human life and his duty as a hero is gone. He is basically forced to be a viltrumite full time now and will abandon any semblance of trying to live his own life for a very, very long time until his relationship with Eve starts to get serious.

Which is why a pretty justifiable murder in this context is presented as so bloody, gruesome and traumatizing an event for both the audience and Mark himself. We both know there's no coming back from this.

As for the death of main series villain Shigaraki Tomura, Deku ends up being forced to kill Shigaraki in a situation similiar to Mark. Though I will highlight one difference right away. Mark was trying to reason with Angstrom, but he was at no point like "I want to save Angstrom, he's a victim I want to find some other way of ending this bloody conflict between us." Mark just didn't intend to go so far as killing him.

Deku entered the fight with the explicit stated desire to save Shigaraki rather than killing him, which would make him different from the previous generation of heroes because he wouldn't turn a blind eye to society's faults and victims like Shigaraki accused him of.

Deku makes a journey into Shigaraki's mental landscape to find Tenko in a recreation of the memory of the day of his worst trauma. As Tenko's quirk activates, Deku attempts to grab the little boy's hands to comfort him.

Deku's "Why I am here" is markedly different from All Might's. Deku says the reason he wants to save others is to take their hands, comfort them and give them peace, whereas All Might as the strongest hero tried to keep peace by beating all the villains down. Deku's way to become the greatest hero once again, focuses heavily on saving others, and offering his hand to everyone without hesitation instead of picking and choosing who to save like previous generations.

Deku even says that he has to extend a helping hand to everyone because he's learning that the world is more complicated than he thought, he was ignorant to a lot of people's suffering, and he can't sweep their pain under the rug anymore.

For a moment Deku unconditionally extending a hand to Shimura Tenko even as his mental body begins to decay away wins over Shimura Tenko. Though Shigaraki also resists because much like Twice he doesn't want to abandon the rest of his friends even if it means he personally will be saved.

However, any attempts to save Shigaraki are interrupted by AFO suddenly appearing out of nowhere and taking control of Shigaraki's body yet again.

At this point Deku does exactly what Mark does, which is relentlessly punch Shigaraki's body to death in order to kill AFO along with Shigaraki. In some small defese Shigaraki was also there too punching AFO in his mental landscape so he was assisting Deku in defeating AFO he wasn't helpless the entire time.

But, basically we see the same scene happen with Mark.

A hero who does not wish to kill is forced by circumstance to kill a villain. In Deku's case it should be even more devastating because they explicitly went into the fight wanting to save Shigaraki and they believed their power was for saving and not killing.

Yet, we don't get nearly as horrified a response from Deku.

However, instead Deku's final words are just about how he couldn't forgive Shigaraki and had to put a stop to him no matter what.

Even the way the scenes are presented to us are entirely different. Mark punches Angstrom in a wasteland a dry, dead place, until he's soaked in Angstrom's blood, and painted everything around him red. Once again, it's a visual callback to Mark's father beating him half to death, which was Mark's own lowest point.

Whereas, when Deku punches Shigaraki until he disintegrates not only is the violence or horror of Shigaraki's death not acknowledged, but it's played as a triumphant moment where the clouds clear from the sky and the stun starts shining.

In the cartoon Mark killing Angstrom leads to a total screaming breakdown where he has traumatic flashbacks of his dad beating him and pushes himself to break the sound barrier multiple times. It also leads him to making big life changes like dropping out of college to become a hero full time and giving up any pretense of having a normal life. As seen in a scene where he watches Amber from the sky, and is tempted to go down and greet her and just flies off, because Amber represents his connection to his humanity.

Also, Angstrom doesn't even die. He comes back way worse and that's how invinicble war arc starts.

In the aftermath of killing Shigaraki, Deku gets melancholy about not being able to save Shigaraki only to be reassured he did save him in the end. Only to be told by All Might that it's okay because he still saved Shigaraki's heart even if he killed him.

DEKU: "I couldn't save Tenko's life." "I reached out to his heart, and even though his hatred was crushed," "to the very end, Tenko" "was the leader of the League of Villains." ALL MIGHT: "Let me tell you this as someone who has had a near-death experience," "I think it's in the expression on his face at the end." "If there wasn't a crying boy there," "I think his heart was saved after all,"

People also try to convince mark that he did nothing wrong and that there was no helping what he did in a situation like that, but he doesn't let himself believe them.

The ending lines about the last episode of Season 2, are this:

Eve: I'm sorry Mark. It's not fair. You don't deserve this. Eve: You don't deserve this.

Which has a double meaning. Eve is just trying to comfort Mark, because arguably he shouldn't have to feel guilty for fighting in self defense. On the other hand what Mark hears is You don't deserve this in the context of Eve's feelings for him. An alternate timeline version of Eve confessed her love for Mark. Mark was about to bring it up but decided not to. At that moment as Eve embraces and comforts him, what Mark hears because of his own self loathing is that he doesn't deserve Eve comforting him, or her love for him.

Just to clarify I don't think that Mark is crying over Angstrom Levy specifically. In fact over time he's painted to be pathetic in his obsession with revenge, and what he amounts to is just wanting to blame everything on invincible when it was partially caused by his own actions.

However, it's inarguable that killing (or rather seemingly killing Angstrom) deeply impacted Mark and how he saw himself as a hero. It's less about Angstrom, and more about the loss of control, and the realization of how powerful his anger and hatred can get and what that means for him personally.

It also shows us where Mark's priorities lie. Mark wants to be a perfect hero and a perfect family man, and Invincible shows us he can't be both, his desire to protect his family leads him to staining his blood when he was trying so hard to be a good, selfless hero. This is all a part of a deliberate arc where Mark chooses more and more to value his family over being a hero. I'm not going to say whether or not it's the right choice, but it's a choice he makes, as a part of his character development where as he grows up and becomes a father his priorities change.

My point is that this moment has an impactful change on Mark, for arguably the rest of the comic.

Now my question is, with My Hero Academia will the death of Shigaraki Tomura, the series greatest villain and it's greatest victim have an equal impact on Deku's character that Levy's death did on Mark's?

[polarspaz]

Hi! Big BIG fan of your Au’s, especially the Cairon one with my boi Tim.

I had a question: So we all know little Timmy was basically a stalker to the bats in the comics. Would he have still have done that in this AU? And do you think he ever ran into any of the nicer rogues? (We know what he does with scarecrow 💀)

Like, does Pamela show him different plants that have medicinal purposes?

Or Selina teaching him how to fight since he’s closer to her build than Batman’s?

(Tried to break it up so it wasn’t a wall of text 😅)

-In the Carrion AU, Tim started to stalk Batman and Robin right after he killed his parents. While he did spend most of his time studying toxicology and medicine, he also had more than enough free time to trail after the shadowy duo.

-Tim never encountered any super villains while he crept the streets of Gotham, however he would stumble into a few thugs occasionally. But each encounter would end the same, with Tim scampering away unharmed, while leaving his attacker waling in agony from a single needle.

-When Jason was killed *horrifically* by the Joker, Tim saw how much worse Bruce had gotten, and decided to help him by kidnapping Scarecrow. Learning the formula for the Fear toxin was also a sweet bonus, so in Tim eyes, he was getting a two for one special. He just hadn't expected Bruce to find him so quickly.

-Tim relationship with Poison Ivy was quite bad in the beginning. While Tim found Ivy's plants fascinating, Tim was an outright murderous monster in Ivy's eyes. Ivy valued plant life WAY more than human life, having no qualms about murdering someone over a wilted fern. So when she saw Tim causally rip her flowers apart and stuff their husks into his little bags, she FREAKED.

-WAY later on though they start to mutual respect each other. Tim tires to not kill the plants he collects from Ivy, and while he usually fails ((Tim has a black thumb)), Ivy appreciates the effort. They also both like to talk about toxicology and hold each other's opinions on such matters in high regards.

-As for Tim and Selina, well, Tim is kinda intimated by Selina, lol. She confuses the shit out of him and he doesn't know how to react to her. Tim a really good actor when he needs to be ((He freaks out Jason when he does it so well)) but with her, he's not sure how to act. So he avoids her. ((The same could be said for Wonder Woman, Tim just doesn't know how to handle motherly kindness))

[sisaloofafump]

Batman Comics Reading Guide

The goal of this post is to provide a bunch of launching off points for people depending on what they're interested in. As such, this is not a checklist. These are just suggestions that hopefully provide some context to navigate different eras and get a proper scope of the Batman comic landscape.

The amount of background behind characters and arcs can make it hard to jump right in (though these recommendations are geared to be more beginner friendly than average), so sites like the dc fandom wiki and comicvine are invaluable resources to catch you up on context. However, you can also learn a lot by just opening up a series and picking up the character cues as you go along.

IF I HAD TO CHOOSE JUST ONE...

Batman: Hush (2002) is amazing at introducing so many important characters at an entry level: Bruce, Dick (Robin I/Nightwing), Tim (Robin III), Alfred, Harley Quinn and the Joker, and Gordon. It also reintroduces Catwoman and starts her relationship with Batman, and explores his friendship with Superman and Lois. It also gets into much more about his upbringing than just the night of his parent's murder. My only hesitation is that it came out right before the resurrection of the second Robin, Jason, and lays the early foundation for it, so it's important to have some backstory regarding that going in. The art and the writing is great and while the story line gets intense, it has plenty of lighter interactions and art. It was originally published as Batman #608-619.

FIRST, SOME CONTEXT

There are always 2 ongoing series about Batman/Bruce Wayne and his teams: Batman, and Detective Comics. Depending on the era, these are either totally independent stories (like they are currently) or meant to be read side-by-side. It can be worth reading collected volumes of arcs rather than one of these streams individually.

There are also a bunch of series dedicated to supporting characters and teams that often have a lot of crossover. There will be info panels in the comics that tell you where a storyline started if a crossover happens, and the wiki/comicvine can help guide you if you get lost.

GOLD/SILVER AGE

If you're interested in his goofy Gold and Silver Age comics-start with a highlight collection! I recommend Batman Annual #5 (1963) from the 1940 "Batman" run. My personal favourite sub-era to read is the early 60s because it is both weird and easy to read. This era was almost entirely anthology comics, so it is very easy to bounce around in read one or two stories at a time.

Prominent Series:

Detective Comics (1937–): It was originally an anthology series but (almost) each issue #27 onwards has Batman in it! There are stories about other characters like the Martian Manhunter, and various non-hero detectives in each issue too.

Batman (1940–): A Batman solo series. Often includes three stories in each issue.

World's Finest Comics (1941–): He has a solo story in the first 70 issues. Issue #71 onwards are team ups with Superman!

Batman Family (1975-78): A short bronze age anthology staring Batman, Batgirl (Barbara), and Robin (Dick), however it really focused on highlighting supporting characters like Vicki Vale, Huntress, and Ace the Bat-Hound. It mostly includes reprints but each issue should have an original story as well. This was later merged with Detective Comics for 15 issues.

Prominent Character Issues:

Detective Comics #27 (1939): Introduces Bruce/Batman

Batman #1 (1940): Introduces Selina/"The Cat"

Detective Comics #38 (1940): Introduces Dick Grayson/Robin

Batman #16 (1943): Introduces Alfred (although his last name is Beagle, not Pennyworth)

Superman #76 (1952): Oh no! There's only one room left on this cruise and we have to share (Batman & Superman's first meeting)

Detective Comics #233 (1956): Introduces Kathy Kane aka the first version of Batwoman

Batman #139 (1961): Introduces Bette Kane aka the first version of a Bat-Girl

Detective Comics #359 (1967): Introduces Barbara Gordon aka current canon's "first" Batgirl

Detective Comics #357 (1983): Introduces Jason Todd. (His backstory is rewritten a few years later however)

DARK AGE

These are a few very important comics to Batman's history and you'll often see them referenced. You don't have to read any of them but it's important to loosely familiarize yourself with the contents.

Batman: Year One (1987): When they reset all of DC's continuity, this was the Batman origin they created. It set a new gritty vibe that some people loved, some people hated, but needless to say it is one of the most influential comics DC has ever put out. Features Bruce, Gordon, Selina, Alfred, and Harvey.

Batman: The Killing Joke (1988): This is a majorly influential Joker story and quite dark. It solidified the Joker's modern characterization and parallels to Batman. Barbara Gordon/Batgirl is assaulted and permanently(ish) paralyzed in it.

Batman: A Death in the Family (1988): Robin 2/Jason's death arc. The readers had voted on whether he would live or die. This was the result. Also published as Batman #426-429

Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth (1989): Dave McKean illustrated this!!. That's all I should need to tell you. It is a very interesting abstract exploration of Batman and Gotham's rogues and leans heavily on the horror aspect. I'll warn up front that there is a lot of demonization of mental health issues. It established Arkham Asylum as a major part of Gotham lore.

also the very famous but non-canonical:

The Dark Knight Returns (1986): A hypothetical future story where Bruce comes out of retirement. Carrie Kelley is the the new (and female!) Robin and helps him fight the Joker, Two-Face, and Superman. This is the first (and the best) of a trilogy.

MODERN AGE

A lot of new characters were introduced in the mid/late 90s and early 2000s. These include Tim Drake (Robin 3), Cassandra Cain (Batgirl 4/Orphan), Stephanie Brown (Robin 4/Batgirl 5/Spoiler), Kate Kane (Batwoman), Damian Wayne (Robin 5), as well as a focus on Helena Bertinelli (Batgirl 3/Huntress). It also started a third continuous series called Batman: Shadow of the Bat which ran from 1992–2000.

It would probably be illegal for me to not mention the series Batgirl (2000) here for the writing is incredible. However, the hyper-stylized art may make it better as a series to read later on.

There are many prominent story arcs, and you can find collected versions of them as the individual issues were split accross various character's series. Some important ones are:

Knightfall (1993): The villain Bane breaks Batman's back, and a religious zealot vigilante Azreal takes over for Bruce.

No Man's Land (1999): An earthquake destroys Gotham and the vigilantes work to restore order to the quarantined city. Introduces Cassandra Cain and highlights Barbara, Tim, Helena, and Bruce.

Under the Hood (2005): The bloody return of Jason Todd/Robin 2, very often referenced in fandom

Batman and Son (2006): The introduction of Damian Wayne/Robin 5.

Batman R.I.P. and following (2008–9): During this era, Batman is presumed to have died during a major crossover event The Final Crisis. Dick Grayson (the now grown-up Robin 1) takes over as Batman, Stephanie Brown becomes Batgirl, Damian Wayne is Robin, and everyone else is doing weird stuff. A major sub arc is Battle for the Cowl where the former Robins fight for the right to take over as Batman.

There is also a lot of fun crossovers with the justice league if you'd rather not stay in Gotham, here are some good ones:

World's Finest (1990): This is a wonderful Superman & Batman team up from the early 90s and has really great interactions between everyone's various personas. Steve Rude's art is so much fun and his versions of Lois and Bruce Wayne make me want to cry with how beautiful they are.

Kingdom Come (1996): a hypothetical story about the Justice League dealing with a new generation of morally careless heroes. Deeply influential and famous but more importantly, absolutely gorgeous. Do yourself a favour and just go stare and Alex Ross' art for a while (including in 2005's series Justice)

Trinity (2008): A great look at Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, and the Justice League. The first half focuses on the Trinity's similarities and differences in what they symbolize. It has a very interesting integration of Tarot too. However, they're absent for the vast majority of the second half—focusing on what the rest of the JL does in their absence. You don't need to read all of it.

Superman/Batman (2003–2011): A team up book of the title characters. The first arc is an all time favourite, and it has little crossover with their solo series, making for a read with little need for background context.

NEW 52

The New 52 (2011) relaunch event made a few major backstory changes to the Batfamily. It unparalyzed Barbara and reinstated her as Batgirl. Cass and Stephanie both lost their Batgirl (and Robin) histories and were completely set back to ground zero, ready to be reintroduced with new origins. It does introduce Duke Thomas/Signal to the team, as well as Harper Row/Bluebird (though she is not in many non-N52 books).

Honestly just avoid all of the New-52 for as long as you can, but if you do get tempted later on:

We are Robin (2015) and Robin War (2016): Features Duke Thomas, his friends, and later Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian. If you're going to read anything, read this. It is genuinely very good and worthwhile.

Batman & Robin Eternal (2015) focuses on the whole family (including Harper Row/ Bluebird!!) and re-introduces Cass and Azreal. It has a LOT of family bickering and team ups. Ironically, it doesn't really have Bruce or Damian in it.

REBIRTH & PRESENT

The Rebirth era and following (2016-) does mostly keep the same canon as the New 52 created. However, following the Dark Crisis event (2022), everyone's backstories were merged with their previous incarnations. It is not clear to what degree this effects each character, however Stephanie is back to having been Robin now.

If you're reading the Rebirth era, I recommend starting with the Detective Comics run rather than Batman. This is just personal preference but I strongly stand by it. It highlights lesser known characters (initially Kate/Batwoman, Steph, Cass, Azreal and Batwing, with Tim and Bruce) but most importantly, it's way better written. There are a lot of batfamily crossover events (like Joker War, or Fear State). So yourself a favour and read the collected editions so you catch all of it in one place.

Three major events happen that effect all Batman-adjacent comics, that (because they still fairly recent) I will not detail for spoiler reasons, however: Batman #50 (Sep 2018) and #77 (Oct 2019), and to a lesser degree Detective Comics #940 (Nov 2016), have lasting impacts on the series.

COMIC RECS

Batman and the Outsiders (2019) is amazing. It focuses on Cassandra and Duke. Read Detective Comics #983-987 first. B&tO is continuing off from it.

Batman: The Knight: a 10 issue series about Bruce's training years and the friendships he made. Introduces a prominent character who shows up a lot in Batman #100 onwards. This is just really great

Batgirls: If you like Barbara, Cass, and Stephanie, I highly recommend reading the first arc of this. The art and the story are a lot of fun

All-Star Batman (2016): features Duke Thomas with Batman blasting heavy metal music out of his chest. It's a series of contained stories and doesn't require context from other runs

Task Force Z: Jason is roped into leading a government team of resurrected villains. It is quite an interesting exploration of his current ethics. The rest of the family do make appearances as well.

And additionally:

Wayne Family Adventures: an official (but non-canonical) Webtoon about the various domestic shenanigans of the Batfamily. It's light and funny and heartfelt and updates every Thursday.

-------

Lastly, I want to recommend my favourite oneshot, and it has absolutely no bearing on any plot, characters, or world:

Batman: Dreamland (2000): It's Batman exploring Area 51 and he looks like this:

What more could you possibly want?

[kevin-day-is-bi]

Beginner's Guide to Batman (and Batman-related) Media

(based on my knowledge and the things I enjoy)

Live action Batman movies are very hit or miss. Most of them are fairly middling, but the Dark Knight Trilogy is generally pretty bad. Poor Bruce characterization, white-washing, inaccurate representations of Gotham, etc. I have several thousand words written on that trilogy, and many more on live action movies in general (all of which are accessible thru my pinned post). The Batman (2022) is pretty widely regarded as being good and accurate. It has a much more emo depiction of Bruce. A major pet peeve of mine is that I, personally, don't think it's a very good Riddler, but everything else is good.

As for shows, those are generally less accurate but more enjoyable. Gotham is not technically canon I don't think but it has better aesthetics, canon accuracy, and character design than every live action movie imo. It starts with Bruce seeing his parents' murder and goes up until he first decides to become Batman. Gotham Knights is a much more AU-style show, detailing the death of Bruce and how his adopted son (invented for the show) handles it. It also has Stephanie, Harper and Cullen Row, and Duela Dent, plus great queer rep. Heavily recommended for people who want to know more about general character personalities or who enjoy AUs. Titans has Dick, Jason, and Tim, and while I personally don't think that they did well with the characterization of the other Titans, the Robins are well-done. If you want a good idea of Dick right after he became Nightwing, you want to see Jason as Robin, or you like Tim pre-Robin, this is the show for you.

As for animated shows, the usually widely loved ones are Justice League, Justice League Unlimited, and Batman: The Animated Series. B:TAS is largely accurate to the comics at that time, though it plays a little fast and loose with the Robins (goes straight from Dick to Tim). Plus, it's the first appearance of Harley Quinn! Additionally, I enjoy The Batman (2005), though it plays with the timeline a little and targets a younger audience. Batman Beyond is amazing if you want to get into the future of Batman/Terry McGinnis universe. The accompanying movie, Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker covers Tim becoming Joker Jr.

Speaking of animated movies, there are a Lot. Standouts include the Batman Unlimited movies, which are some of the only ones to include Tim. They're very futuristic, so if you enjoy AUs or the science side of Batman, these are the ones. There are a lot of AU style ones, like Gotham by Gaslight (which I personally really love but don't think is anything particularly special outside of being interesting for characters), The Doom That Came to Gotham, and Batman Ninja. Batman Ninja isn't one of my favorites, but it is very good and has general good characterization. If you want to know more about how Barbara became Oracle but you don't want to read one of the most sexist comics ever, watching the Batman: The Killing Joke movie is a good way to do it. It frames the movie from Barbara's perspective and focuses on her story. If you want to know more about Damian, Son of Batman and Batman vs Robin are good. They detail him becoming Robin and his brush with the Court of Owls. Batman: Under the Red Hood is absolutely necessary viewing for anyone who likes Jason, as it details him coming back to life and becoming the Red Hood (along with having one of the all-time most depressing lines in-context ever).

When it comes to media that doesn't have Batman in it but is Batman-affiliated, Birds of Prey and the Fantabulous Emancipation of Harley Quinn is a really good post-Joker pre-Ivy look at Harley, and it has Helena Bertinelli (Huntress), Dinah Lance (Black Canary), Detective Renee Montoya, and an AU-ized Cassandra Cain. The show Young Justice, particularly the first season, is a really good look at Robin!Dick in non-Bat teams, as is the animated Teen Titans. Both take slightly different routes when it comes to his personality, but both are equally good (especially if most of what you know about Robin!Dick is "holy dental hygiene, Batman!" or his vague backstory). They also both provide introductions into other team families, particularly Young Justice, so if you've just gotten into DC via Batman and want to know more about other characters, YJ is the way to go.

My personal idea of best piece of media for any character:

Bruce Wayne

Pre-Batman - Gotham

Batman: The Animated Series

Alfred Pennyworth

Batman: The Animated Series

Barbara Gordon

Batman: The Animated Series and The Killing Joke

Kate Kane

Batman: Bad Blood

Dick Grayson

As Robin - Young Justice

As Nightwing - the Son of Batman/Batman vs Robin/Batman: Bad Blood trilogy

Jason Todd

As Robin - Titans

As the Red Hood - Batman: Under the Red Hood

Tim Drake

As Robin - Batman: The Animated Series

As Red Robin - Batman Unlimited: Monster Mayhem/Batman Unlimited: Animal Instincts

Stephanie Brown

Gotham Knights

Damian Wayne

Son of Batman/Batman vs Robin

Feel free to send an ask about a specific movie or show (or if you want a detailed list of everything a specific character has ever appeared in!) - I'm currently watching every Batman movie in existence and writing reviews literally so I can provide better recommendations to people (on part 41 rn). I will gladly provide more details about any movie or show. Also if you want to know more about specific media or what media a specific character has appeared in that is Bat-affiliated but is not a Bat, I probably have info! Anyone who's ever been a Titan, most Supers, most of the JLA, etc.

I can do another of these for comic recommendations if anyone wants bc I Do have opinions, I've just had some folks ask questions about specifically non-comic media recently!

[bibeagle]

The Lego Batman movie has a song that, if I'm not mistaken, plays on the credits. It's "I found you", and it's child Dick Grayson singing for Bruce. It's teeth-rotting wholesome and I'll prove this song fits ALL the batkids JUST with the chorus (and it'd be an incredible animatic):

"We were meant to be together"- Bruce being right there when Dick lost his parents, fate brought them together and formed the wonder duo.

"We've both been through some heavy weather"- Jason met Bruce by stealing the batmobile tires, little Jay has already been through a lot (and will go through the worst) and I don't even need to talk about Bruce. And yall know what happens regarding the Joker.

"It's all I've wanted for so long"- COME ONN this is literally Tim. He found out their secret IDs, he wanted to be robin and managed to do so, standing by Bruce's side when he knew he nedded it.

"A broken bone heals twice as strong"- Both Bruce and Damian were stiff and awkward in the beggining. Damian was so little and all that with Ra's and Talia happened and they both slowly healed together, still are.

"And I feel like we're the perfect team"- I'll admit I don't know much about the next kids as well as the first ones, but I'm sure Steph just- demanded Bruce to train her and they surprisingly turned out well, right?

"The greatest the world's ever seen"- Bruce and Cass being quiet and wearing all black and mixing perfectly with the shadows, please she's literally his daughter in every way asides from blood.

"And it proves that wishes do come true"- Again, sorry I don't know much, but Duke had fought together with all the robins before, right? Bruce had helped him and offered him to be his new protege. A new place beside Batman and unlike any other robin.

"'Cause you found me,"- Bruce taking them all in, one by one.

"And Batman, I found you."- All of them healing something inside Bruce, all of his kids there for him and making him turn into someone nothing like the person he was when he decided to become The Batman.

SHAFAFJHGAS COME ON IT'S PERFECT. It bothers me so much that I've only seen two or three videos regarding this song and whenever I see it, it's just Dick (don't get me wrong, I love him too much for my own good, but come on it fits so well). Someone, please please please make an animatic, draw this with the lyrics, a tiktok video, I don't know just please, anything, this is too perfect and I don't have the skills to recreate it💔

[oh-there-she-goes]

Batman #145 (preview)

It infuriates me how Zdarsky kept having his Joker refer to Zur en Arrh as the real you or the true Batman. I understand there are many ways to write a character such as Joker, but to have him regard the OG Batman, who in part made him, as a second best to Zur, whom he had only met twice in his entire career, is so...jarring.

I sure damn hope Zdarsky was still cooking and intentionally having Joker spouting nonsense to mess with Batman here because God forbid if Joker was truly being sincere, it would taint all the history between him and Batman in the past decades, turning their dynamics lukewarm if not deploringly lackluster.

And why would Joker care to break the like of Zur in the first place? As formidable as he may, what's so sacred about Zur that needs defiling?

His swift execution of justice? Disproportionate uses of violence? Or his unadulterated brutality? Were these the qualities that left the Joker so enamoured?

One may say it's only natural that Joker would want to unleash his chaos upon Zur, who thinks himself a personification of control and order. But even considering his extreme measures, Zur has never stood against Joker at his core in the ways that Batman has.

In a world where nothing matters, Batman swoops in and fights him by trying to give meaning to everything. And he saves Joker, too, because he believes all lives are worth saving. And that's why Joker is determined to break him. He needs Batman to be wrong.

But what about Zur? Zur is just another man in power. He's dangerously competent, but he upholds no sanctimonious codes. They fight because they have different goals, but there's nothing inherently personal. Joker would not mourn the loss of Zur, and Zur would never feel the weight of guilt from refusing to let his monster bleed to death.

Then again, it might simply be my fault that I lack media literacy. Perhaps it has been Zdarsky's intention all along that Joker was lying. Maybe Joker elevating Zur to such esteem was just a part of his plan to push Bruce to ascension?

On a not-so-unrelated note, as there are many references to Scott Snyder's work in this run, I can't help chewing on how Zdarsky and Snyder differ in their interpretations of Joker.

While Snyder's Joker made it clear that he only cared about Batman and not Bruce, he had never wished for Batman to forgo his humanity.

The most Joker demanded of Batman was to get rid of the family that burdened him (which, funnily enough, Zur agreed). But his resentment stemmed from loneliness and jealousy.

In his heart of hearts, Joker knew they could continue their dance because Batman let it be so, hence the belief that his feelings towards Batman were reciprocated.

Joker even came to admit at one point that he no longer wanted to see Batman broken. What he wanted was for neither of them to win.

The Batman Who Laughs #4 (2019)

And unless something akin to 'Last Knight on Earth' happened, I see this as their dynamic in later years until either (or both) of them perished (which is unlikely to be soon as they both refused to let the other die).

Therefore, this Joker would never want Zur to enter the picture as it had been shown time and time again that when met with the more brutal, more...radical Batman(s), he always chose to side with the Batman who stayed humane.

Like when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object, Joker is in love with Batman who refuses to change.

Batman: Last Knight on Earth #3 (2019)

The True Batman, for him, was the Batman who could withstand any test Joker and the world threw at him and remained the same.

Well..., who would like to keep dancing with a man who wouldn't dive from the top of the building after you anyway?

Still, I want so bad to be wrong about Zdarsky. I hope he has plans for them more than he lets on. (T w T)

[twistpixel]

regarding the difference in jason's actions towards two-face when he learns of willis's murder vs. his desire for bruce to have avenged his own death: rather than a change in morals or caring more abt bruce than willis this case shows jason's own hypocrisy. jason forgives and pities harvey bc hes a deeply empathetic person. i personally think that contrary to what he may say if bruce had died in jason's place, jason would've reacted very similarly to how he did in willis's case. after his resurrection jason latches on to the specifics of joker's continued existence, but inwardly what he's really feeling is a deep sense of his own worthlessness. he sees that bruce has moved on as though nothing happened, as though he never mattered; this triggers a deep sense of insecurity in him because he cannot so easily move on. he's stuck in the moment of his death, 15, waiting for someone to prove to him that they love him as much as he loves them. this discrepancy he feels between himself and bruce leaves him unbearably vulnerable. to assuage his own humiliation and feelings of inferiority he fixes on a problem which rapidly becomes black and white before his eyes: heres what bruce should have done if he actually loved me. id have done the same had it been him. however, as with almost anything jason says or thinks after his resurrection you have to ask yourself is he really being truthful to himself, consciously or unconsciously? when jason encounters earth-51's batman in countdown who did kill joker in response to jay's death, he seems instinctively to find this version of bruce lesser. he says to him 'we're both dead "batman." any fool could see you've been dead inside for years.' jason can't reconcile the caring person he had known with someone who would have become what that bruce did.

i think the reality of the situation is that jason would likely have reacted badly even (or perhaps especially) if bruce had killed the joker because the situation is just so fucked. bruce can't react in any way that jason isn't able to twist inwards into self-loathing. jason is simply unable to admit to himself that what he really wants is not for bruce to have killed the joker, but for his life, his death, his tenure as robin, to have been meaningful; for bruce to have unconditionally loved him as jason loved him in turn; for bruce to continue to love him, in fact to continue to need jason; more than anything though--he wishes he hadn't died, because ultimately he wishes desperately for things to be as they were -- but neither of them can ever go back to being those people.

... the tldr jason thought process is essentially -> bruce doesnt love me bruce never cared about me at all or not in any way that mattered i loved him wholly i would have done anything for him i would have died for him i would have killed for him. but LOL he would not have done that!

I love that you brought up earth 51 Batman because i think about him a lot and I think I’ve said it before how they’re both just hanging out with shuffling corpses BUT ☝️ I would attribute Jason calling this Bruce dead more to how he keeps calling Jason “Jason” and ignoring and not addressing Jason’s attempts to distinguish himself from dead-Jason. I think it’s very palpable to Jason the uncanny valley and horror of the situation because when Jason talks about dead-Jason bruce says “you” for both of them. And yet in the end bruce dives in to help when that Bruce is in trouble even tho he’s sooooo doomed. (Funny as hell for Donna and Kyle to just give Jason space to do that like in context it’s a sad moment but “we’ll just be over here”. )

I do think Jason has hypocrisy ngl but I will also but you here- I think it’s what you’re saying about the desire for proof of love but also with a combo of a change in morals. The difference could lie quality of the bad guy. I mean we get that out of Jason’s mouth, “I’m not taking about X Y and Z” but you’re right that you know, we can’t always take Jason’s word for it. But the other half of that line “doing it because he took me away from you” I think Jason thinks killing people is okay. It’s how the world works to him.

Tbh preface that I don’t think modern Jason feels this way about Bruce anymore, but the joker thing specifically was UtH Jason feeling Bruce was living in naïveté and that Jason’s death would be the thing that took him by the shoulders and forced him to confront that it’s okay to kill people sometimes. It wasn’t, because I don’t think anything is, although I see people saying he would if it were a different character and I get a little :(

Thanks for the ask, sorry I only talked about where I disagreed with you

[anxiousnerdwritings]

We seen Bruce's reaction to jokerized!twin but what about the rest of the family? did Damien feel guilty knowing that he had a hand in this?

Definitely! Damian feels utterly at fault for his sibling ending up in the clutches of Joker, he’ll never forgive himself for pushing his twin to this point.

After his time with Bruce and the rest of the Batfamily, Dick especially, Damian has calmed down and changed from how he used to be, in particularly regarding his thoughts on his sibling. He’s been guilt ridden ever since he came to terms with how terribly cruel he was to them and obsessing over how he could make it right and mend things with his twin, finally becoming the brother he should have been to them from the very beginning. But he doesn’t know how to find them, how to reach out and apologize for everything he’s put them through. Last he knew they were in Gotham but that was some time ago and they weren’t on the best of terms then, not to mention they’re last interaction was brutal so who’s to say his sibling didn’t just leave town and start anew somewhere else. Somewhere better.

But that doesn’t keep Damian from keeping an eye out for them, whether while out on patrol or while going about his day to day outside of his vigilante duties, hoping one day he’ll be lucky enough to find them again. That is until he actually does come face to face with them once more.

When he does meet the Reader again Damian is frozen with shock. Not only are they with Harley and Joker but they two clowns are also referring to his sibling as their bby. It’s too much for Damian to process in the moment. At first, he assumes that Joker and Harley have brainwashed his sibling into playing house with them and taking on the role of their child, but then his sibling tells him themself that they weren’t wanted anywhere else but Joker happily took them in. It’s on that moment that Damian realizes just how much he’s fucked up and how horribly he has ruined his own flesh and blood.

He can’t bring himself to acknowledge what they’re saying is true though, there’s no way they came to Joker willingly and took part in becoming like him. There’s no way. He won’t accept that. He can’t accept it. He wholeheartedly is under the belief that his sibling is brainwashed and has been taken advantage of against their will to play a part in Joker’s delusional fucked up version of a family. This only fuels Damian’s hatred towards the Clown Prince all the more, he’s taken something away from him, something he hadn’t ever appreciated enough to take for granted. He’s only recently realized how much he messed up and now the very thing he’s been working towards fixing is now being broken down even more by a psychotic clown.

It takes a everything, mainly Bruce and what other family members are there, to keep Damian from killing Joker right then. It certainly doesn’t help that his very own sibling is protect Joker and Harley so no one can get a hit on them without severely hurting or killing the Reader in the process. Damian has to be forcefully restrained as Joker, Harley and his sibling make a getaway. No matter how hard he tries to break free to give chase to get his twin back, he’s held in place probably even knocked out and taken back to the manor so everyone can regroup and plan out how to handle this situation.

It was already hard enough seeing his sibling along side Joker to begin with but seeing their paper white skin and the crazed look in their eye after they’ve been christened in a chemical bath is too much for him. Especially, if he was forced to witness them being submerged into the chemical vat himself. Damian wouldn’t be the same after that. How could he be? He watched helplessly and uselessly while his sibling was turned into a version of one of the most deranged individuals he’s ever known. And he couldn’t do anything to stop it.

Damian would vow to save his sibling, both from Joker and from themself. He won’t give up on them, he can’t. They need him more than ever now and he’ll fight tooth and nail to bring them home where they belong, with him and their father (as well as the batfamily). Even if he has to break Bruce’s rules to do so. He has a lot to work toward with them, even more now than ever but he’ll make it happen. Damian will be there for them, he won’t stop until their safe and by his side where they should have been all along. He won’t let anything come between him getting his twin back, not even his own mother.

[hanluex]

Okay I have some headcanons for Titans!Jason, Comics!Jason (as they have some differences) and some of them that could be applied for both versions. I am gonna let some of the last group here and please tell me what do you think about them. I would love to hear your oppinion! Sorry if it's too long 😅

It's a fact that he loves eather jackets, and I love to imagine that he would let his/o wear team when it's cold. Or maybe when he lefts for patroling and you need some comfort item to remind yourself that he will back at home safe

I think he has at least a couple of tattoos (I think is a popular headcanon among the fsndom actually 🤔). And all of them have deep meanings for him that only a few people know about

He is a baby when his s/o plays with his hair. His head resting on your lap, sleepy eyes and all his tough facade is gone. Sorry, not sorry 😌

Last one for now, it's known that he is so freaking touch-starved

Titans!Jason will show it by being really physically close and teasing the person he has a crush with

With Comics!Jason is a little bit different. His s/o is the one who needs to star the physical affection since he doesn't know how to explain when he needs a hug, a forehead kiss or just his hand being hold and when he will be with this face 🥹 the whole time without uttering a word

Lots of love, take care 🫶🏼🫶🏼🫶🏼

🌕 Anon

i went so overboard with this one, gosh 😭 but i do hope my opinions regarding these hcs are entertaining! thank you as always for your messages, sweetheart! stay safe and take care 🥺💗

it's a fact that he loves leather jackets, and i love to imagine that he would let his s/o wear team when it's cold. or maybe when he lefts for patrolling and you need some comfort item to remind yourself that he will back at home safe

ahh omgomg this is definitely canon! like, it can be the middle of july where everyone is sweating buckets, but jason will still have this leather jacket on him JUST IN CASE you are feeling cold and need it 🥹

him giving you his leather jacket was actually how he first realized that he might have feelings for you (when you two were in the “friends” stage, perhaps?) when you mentioned you were cold or he happened to notice the goosebumps on your skin, he didn’t hesitate to take his jacket off and put it on you

this action just led him to think “why in the world would i ever do that?” 🤔 which would after a lot of thought give him the answer “well shit maybe i like them, that’s why” 😏 and from then onwards, it’s a fight between you and flirty!jason fr 😂

i think he has at least a couple of tattoos (i think is a popular headcanon among the fandom actually 🤔). and all of them have deep meanings for him that only a few people know about

ooh i never knew that! me personally, i don’t think anyone in the batfam would have any tattoos bc bruce would be on their asses if they ever got something that would make it easier for their identities to be compromised

but then again, this is jason … when has the boy ever listened? 😭 (actually, i so believe he is a rule-keeper through and through, maybe even more so than dick — he just doesn’t show it bc he wants to be cool)

although, i definitely think jason has a tattoo of the joker card where the joker is holding a bloodied crowbar. all his scars were gone when he came back from the pit, so he’d get this tattoo in remembrance of what happened to him and who did it and how 🥹 it’s not in a visible spot, but anyone who’d ever come across it would definitely be people close to him and would know it’s meaning upon a closer glance at the details of the tattoo

one that would be hidden in plain sight is a tiny tattoo of a sun on the side of his left ring finger. although it is a myth, jason likes to believe in the historical belief of vena amoris (vein of love) where there was said to be a vein in the left ring finger that is connected straight to the heart

the reason he has a tattoo of a sun on that finger would be bc of you. jason lived his entire life in darkness, he believes. all his thoughts clouded with darkness, not a speck of light even in his mind. but when he met you, everything changed. you were his light at the end of the tunnel, the one he’d run home to, the sun to his moon

he has the sun tattooed on his finger to remind him that you are the reason his heart is beating and the reason he is able to love 🥺💗

bonus: he'd always have a band-aid on that finger to cover his tattoo and bc of his "work" no one ever suspects the fact he always has a band-aid on that specific finger. one day when he was just relaxing with you, you'd note that the band-aid was coming off and would replace it for him, but upon taking it off, you'd see the tattoo and that'd be the day he tells you about it.

extra bonus: you end up getting a tattoo of a moon on the same finger, to signify that he is the moon to your sun 🥰

he is a baby when his s/o plays with his hair. his head resting on your lap, sleepy eyes and all his tough facade is gone. sorry, not sorry 😌

jason is absolute putty in your hands when you play with his hair. like you mentioned later on, bro is absolutely touch-starved, so simple touches like this make him just melt into your embrace

i like to believe it started off when you two were having a book date, where the two of you just chilled at home, reading books in comfortable silence. jason ended up changing his posture, asking if he could rest his head on your lap, to which you complied.

the gesture happened naturally. you held your book with one day and didn’t know what to do with the other, so you just unconsciously played with his hair, the gesture taking him by surprise

from that day onwards, whenever he feels down or whenever you two are cuddling, he just silently grabs your hand, placing it over his head, wordlessly asking you to play with his hair

while on certain days you tease him for behaving like a cat  bc of his eagerness for you to play with his hair, on other days you realise he is just a six-foot bulky kid who needs loads of love and affection 🥹🥹

(he is 100% a black cat, don’t fight me 😤 — you are literally the golden retriever energy to his black cat energy)

last one for now, it's known that he is so freaking touch-starved

yes yes yes !! he is so bloody touch-starved, it’s not even funny 🥹😭

titans!jason will show it by being really physically close and teasing the person he has a crush with

titans!jason is touch-starved, knows it and will take the necessary steps to ensure he receives the affection he needs. like i said earlier, you are the golden retriever to his black cat, so you are very touchy with people

when you were friends (or crushing), jason had said something funny and you hit him on his shoulder as you laughed, before apologizing and patting him in the area you hit — that was it for him. you had him wrapped around your finger with that simple gesture; he was yours

jason would have to have his hands on you at all times when you are together. he just craves affection and proximity. like he needs that assurance that you are there with him and most of the time would want to touch you skin-to-skin (in a non-sexual way), probably his hands under your shirt, whatever he can touch, he will

titans!jason’s love language is definitely teasing! he'd love annoying you by poking you on your sides, just thriving off the reactions he’s getting from you; it’s his serotonin or dopamine — it just makes him so happy!

with comics!jason is a little bit different. his s/o is the one who needs to start the physical affection since he doesn't know how to explain when he needs a hug, a forehead kiss or just his hand being held and when he will be with this face 🥹 the whole time without uttering a word

comics!jason is a gentle giant teddy bear man when you get to know him, but until then, he has so many guards and walls up, it’ll put the pentagon to shame

he’s not used to affectionate touches bc every touch that has come his way usually meant physical harm to him. the first time he’d realise every touch isn’t always violent is when he accidentally hits and pushes you away when you touched him in an attempt to comfort him when he was mad

he’d feel very guilty later on, but you’d just laugh it off, joking around to get rid of the tense atmosphere. you knew he needed time, and time was what you’d give to him. from that day on, you’ll always announce your arrival and let him know you were going to touch him, or ask for affection which surprisingly enough he’d comply to

oh, you said you want a hug? this teddy bear will awkwardly wrap his arms around you as comfort, and you’d end up fixing his arms and posture to let him know how to hug you. he appreciates how patient you are with him and how willing you are to help him with his affectionate needs

once you two are in an established relationship, i think there’d be some codeword or look or just something that’d convey that jason needs to be held bc he has a difficult time in explaining when he needs physical affection

it wouldn’t even be intentional. it'd just be smth like the nickname “sunshine” that jason would use after a rough day or smth, and your reaction is to smother him with affection and from that day on, the word “sunshine” would become jason’s codeword for “i need affection from you, thank you very much”

[necrotic-nephilim]

For the ask game, brujay where it was one sided before and after Ethiopia but only perceived one sided afterwards.

I've always had a head canon about Jaybin having a crush before the Joker got him but that love changing drastically afterwards.

Because I read in a fic once that Bruce loves Jason so much that he would have sex with him if he ever asked and it has haunted me since (can't remember which fic sadly)

Loving reading all these asks btw ❣️

for the ask game!

THIS IS THE PEAK FLAVOR OF BRUJAY. one-sided pre-death turned to an absolute clusterfuck of feelings after Jason comes back. i've read a couple of fics with that concept because. god it's so fucking good. it's the best way for Bruce and Jason to sleep together, in my humble opinion.

i think before his death, Jason knows it's just a childhood crush. he's been on the streets to know what kind of men like teenagers, and Bruce categorically isn't one of those men. Bruce has always been strictly professional and fatherly toward Jason. so sure, it's a blow for the feelings to be unrequited, but Jason is almost relieved Bruce isn't that type of man because it means for once, he's safe at home and can relax around Bruce. Bruce probably notices the crush too, Jason stares openly and gets bashful when Bruce compliments him. but Bruce regards it as a hero worship sort of thing, and he keeps a careful distance, expecting Jason to grow out of it once he settles into living with Bruce. it's an innocent thing to both of them, just teenage hormones. Bruce loves Jason platonically regardless of it. but then. well. Jason dies before he could outgrow the crush and with everything else, it's the last thing on Bruce's mind. he wants to remember the good, innocent parts of Jason. he almost manages to forget about it.

Jason coming back is an unsteady thing. Bruce questions every part of it. (after all, Jason already faked Bruce out once during the Hush plot. Bruce has reason to be doubtful) so everything Jason says, everything he does, is under deep scrutiny for Bruce. anything could be a manipulation tactic. i think when Jason expresses his love this time, Bruce doesn't immediately believe him. sure, he distantly remembers Jason's old crush, but the way Jason expresses love now is different. it's rough, violent, and possessive. and to be fair, Jason is mostly using it to taunt Bruce and drag out his guilt. because he doesn't expect a world where Bruce could reciprocate his feelings. Bruce won't even acknowledge them, accusing Jason of lying and being sick in the head for thinking that's a funny joke. it's part of their dance back and forth, parts of Jason that Bruce won't acknowledge because they're not neat and easily digestible. Bruce doesn't want to admit that his dead son is now a killer. he doesn't want to admit that Jason could like him romantically because somehow, Bruce will turn that into his own failings. he didn't raise Jason right, didn't set clear enough boundaries when Jason was Robin. he didn't keep Jason alive long enough for the childhood crush to fade and now, it's become something twisted and unsightly Bruce doesn't know how to face.

Bruce's own feelings would be... slow and complicated. he loves Jason, that's unquestionable. everytime they run into each other though, everytime they fight and Jason taunts him more and more, that love feels different. Bruce would lay awake at night, wondering if Jason is getting to him. how he's letting Jason change the love inside of him. the memory of Jason from before is slipping through Bruce's fingers, making Bruce wonder if Jason was always like this and Bruce just didn't see him that way. Bruce would distance himself from the rest of the Batfam. if he can develop romantic feelings for Jason, who knows what feelings could arise for the others. he has to hold them all at arms length, emotionally. and the problem is, Bruce doesn't even know how to define his love. calling it strictly romantic is... wrong. part of Jason is still his son. his sidekick. it's a tangled mess of feelings that Bruce doesn't know how to face. he's not sure if he fully reciprocates Jason's love. at the very least, he doesn't reciprocate in the way that Jason loves. Jason's love is possessive to the point of obsession. he wants Bruce all to himself and they both know it. they also both know that will never happen. Bruce will always have other loved ones (both romantic and familial) that he can't deny and Jason will never fully come first. and since Bruce doesn't return that intensity, and he keeps wanting to change Jason, Jason assumes it isn't reciprocated at all. he's basically accepted it.

i think Bruce would admit his feelings on accident. he knows it's a deadly thing if he admits his love to Jason. how it could make Jason so much more violent and likely to target Bruce's family. so he's doing his best to keep it under wraps so Jason doesn't know. Bruce knows even if he admitted his love, they wouldn't work together, so it'd just be needlessly cruel for Jason to know, in his view. he thinks he's protecting Jason. but during another fight, Bruce accidentally says it. and the whole world just stops for Jason, because this isn't something Bruce would joke or lie about. he can see the regret in bruce's eyes for admitting it, and Jason wouldn't know how to feel. should he be angry, excited, in shock. so it just stops Jason in his tracks. Bruce expected explosive violence from Jason finding out, but instead Jason is just stunned and sitting in silence. almost looking like his old self, for a moment. even though he believes Bruce, Jason still needs proof. he still asks Bruce to fuck him, to prove it. to make it real. no matter Bruce's feelings, Bruce never would've fucked Jason by his own will. but he'd do anything for Jason. anything for the chance to bring Jason back. he loves Jason, that much is true no matter how tangled that love is. so, he gives in and does it for Jason. he fucks Jason in some grimy warehouse, bring Jason home, and then fucks him again, properly in a bed with aftercare. for a moment, the fantasy is almost real. Bruce has the hope that Jason is fixable, with Jason pressed against him, warm and pliant after sex.

of course it doesn't last. Jason wants more and more from Bruce, more than Bruce is willing to give. their love devolves to screaming and more fighting. sometimes their fights end in fucking, sometimes they don't. it's volatile either way. Jason has threatened just about every person close to Bruce under the sun, and none of it gets bruce to break and give more. even in love, they're always chasing each other and trying to get something the other can't give. they both know what the other could be capable of, if they were willing to change. and that's what makes it all the more frustrating. Bruce knows Jason is capable of kindness, he's seen it in Jason before. and Jason knows what kind of weapon Bruce could be if he just let go of his morals. it's so close for both of them, but in the end, neither of them get what they want. doesn't stop them from crawling into each other's bed, though. they will always seek each other out. need each other. that weird fucked up love you can't put a name to.

[lemontongues]

I think jason is. a character that's impossible to fully make sense of on a narrative level bc he doesn't actually understand what he wants.... like. I think he's someone who... the first part of his life made sense to him, in that he was a poor kid with parents who were varying levels of broken and trying, and he did his best and kept his chin up and he was ultimately rewarded for it. even with all the skepticism in his little baby heart, we all know the myth of the american dream, and it's easy to let that make sense. and he worked so hard to be robin and be good and follow bruce's rules and apply himself in school, but he still saw bad things happening, cracks in the mask of justice that he couldn't make sense of, and it made it hard for him. and then his ultimate senseless injustice happened, and he died, far too young, betrayed and hurt and failed by everyone who loved him or who should have.

and I think when he came back he just like. couldn't figure out how to cope with that senselessness, so he crammed the experience into a narrative he could understand, where bruce wasn't good enough and didn't love him enough and won't ever choose right, won't make the hard decisions that have to be made to protect the people who are important.

but I think that narrative also isn't actually representative of what jason feels deep down? i don't think bruce killing the joker would have actually made him feel any better, or bruce finding some clever way to stop jason and save all three of them, or bruce apologizing to jason for failing him and saying how much he loved and missed him. I don't think any of that would have made any of it any better for jason, because I think what he's fundamentally grappling with isn't really the nature of any of his relationships, it's the fundamental injustice of the world and how totally nonsensical it is that terrible, brutal, hideous things can happen to innocent people for no reason (which really makes the joker a perfect perpetrator here, doesn't it?). I think he's ultimately somewhat of an idealist in that regard, and he lashes out at bruce about it both for personal reasons and because bruce has positioned himself as the embodiment of justice, and because bruce failed jason in that capacity and has frankly continued to fail gotham at large in that capacity.

which isn't really any particular fault of bruce's—if there's a perfect justice, I don't think we've found it yet, and someone is usually failed one way or the other no matter how ardently justice is pursued. which, as a sidenote, I think is why many of the best incarnations of batman are less about the pursuit to bring a criminal to justice and more about showing compassion and care to the victims of an injustice, whether individual, social, or circumstantial.

jason's effort to become a crime lord and a "better batman" was at least as much about his desire to prove that a meaningful form of justice exists as it was about his desire to hurt and spite bruce, and he was doomed to fail from the start in the way that I think we're all doomed to fail when we look to retributive justice to heal our wounds. he was looking for the comfort of a world that made sense to him, where he could understand what had happened to him and to gloria stanson and the many others like them, and ultimately that's not something he could ever have found in bruce. bruce, despite being his father figure and one of the greatest sources of comfort in his life before his death as well as someone who has positioned himself as a figurehead for justice in gotham, has only ever been a man, and he very clearly has never had all the answers where justice is concerned. no amount of his suffering or failure or apologies would have brought jason any peace, because what jason actually needed to (and was making clumsy attempts to) grapple with was the fact that the world is random and frequently cruel, and that "justice" is not and never has been an effective remedy to that state