#you're not really any better than the racists you're criticising

[ardri-na-bpiteog]

do irish people know you can call out racism without diving enthusiastically into classism instead?

[cherries-in-wine]

A sort of rant/review (mostly negative) of the tortured poets department:

English isn't my first language so apologising in advance for the mistakes <3

I don't think ttpd would've had so much criticism if it wasn't so hyped up by swifties and Taylor herself. Folklore and Evermore are my favourite albums and because Taylor put so much emphasis on how good the songwriting of this album is i thought i was going to love it. So my expectations were a more Lana del rey or the national kind of vibe, orchestral pop or psychedelic rock and it would be like a third sister to folklore and evermore. I've noticed that Taylor's albums are all starting to sound like midnights. 1989 is such a good pop album but 1989 tv sounds midnightified especially the vault tracks sound like they belong on midnights. As much as I love Jack Antonoff as he gave us some great albums i think Taylor desperately needs a new producer. I think the album is definitely "raw" in the sense that unlike the other albums that are super put together, in order and organised, ttpd is messy like a bunch of paragraphs from her notes app thrown together, it isn't essentially a bad thing, but if you're gonna talk about how ttpd required more song writing talent than any other album, it's pretty reasonable for people to be disappointed. I thought name was a reference to joe's group chat name and kind of poking fun at that, but oh no it's an actual fuking asylum and the whole idea makes me very uneasy. The reason why folklore and evermore work is because it's not from the perspective of Taylor but rather the people she's made up in her mind and because she is such a good story teller those albums sound awesome. Something about a straight cis billionaire white woman calling herself a tortured poet in all seriousness and romaticising asylums/electroshock therapy makes me so so so uncomfortable. I understand why swifties are so defensive and protective of Taylor, with all the shit that happened with Kim and Kanye but I feel like they think she's a god that can do no wrong, which is stupid you can like an artist but still call me them out their shitty decisions. The "oh you think her singing writing is not that good why don't you write something better" is such a stupid argument, this random person criticising Taylor isn't constantly referred to as the greatest song writer of our generation, she is. I saw a post saying "the biggest burn is that most songs are about Matty Healy and not Joe Alwyn" like excuse me but if my ex that I dated for many years just starts gushing over a slimy ass Nazi racist sexist pathetic excuse of a man, I'd go "thank god good riddance". What happened to "you are what you love" Taylor?. I really like some songs, but I keep getting disgusted when It clicks who they're about. "But daddy I love him" is a great song but it's about ratty Healy fuck off ew.

I have a lot more to say but my brain isn't braining so I'll update later lol

[noirineverysense]

(About your proship/anti post) tbh it's kinda both sides that don't think critically, but I think the "anti" side is worse about it? Proshippers are usually obnoxious online, but some/most of their views are at least informed by research and studies, whereas a lot of (not all) antis say stuff like "if you put these barbie dolls in this specific situation you are automatically excusing and/or directly causing pedoincest abuse to happen, also if you are a survivor I'm gonna have a savior conplex and demand you find a 'better' coping mechanism. I know better because I'm 15 and take AP psych classes"

Both sides suck overall and the discourse is stupid, but I'd say the "viewing/creating problematic fictional work doesn't automatically brainwash you or define/express your morals or make you a bad person" makes a lot more sense than "liking problematic media makes you an abuser or complicit, and even if someone bypasses all warnings or invades a space they shouldn't be in, it's your fault if they react badly to it. Censor all stuff I dislike now"

Also most "proship" people wouldn't even be doing discourse in the first place, if they weren't getting harassed, doxxed, having to publicly lay out their trauma (if they have any), etc by the anti side over cartoons and video games and books. Abusing/harming real people over fictional content to (not even) prevent hypothetical abuse/harm is, objectively, worse than reacting to said abuse in ways that are annoying or obnoxious, especially when the typically more abusive side has such weird takes that...really don't involve much critical thinking At All, past maybe middle-school-level media literacy

I dont think its that simple tbh. I mean I occupy circles of tumblr that do bat hard against ideas that writing fiction about "problematic" subjects is not inherently harmful (which is true!) but I dont think that belief alone shows a level of "media literacy" whatever you think it means and I don't think implying that people who think differently to you just aren't as educated is really a useful way to engage in discourse. I also don't believe that proshippers who simply yell about intellectualism, critical thinking and media literacy actually do care about those things when someone is critical of their interests for a valid reason (e.g. misogyny).

I think there are probably a lot of proud antis who would say theyve been doxxed and harassed too. You use the example of a particularly combative 15 year old, meanwhile teenagers who do in fact express those views, which may not be ones they hold once they've grown a little, have been harassed by people on the internet who are much older who believe they are justified in their actions for the sake of preserving fandom.

You also imply that the views of proshippers aren't as harmful and simply react to being harassed but this untrue. Proud proshippers often harass people of colour for speaking out against fandom racism, viewing them as aggressive outsiders who disrespect the (white) culture in fandom spaces. The pro/anti divide isnt that simple bc a lot of people of colour get depicted as antis for criticising fandom behaviours which, in these proshippers minds, further justifies their abuse.

Overall, I think a lot of proshipper views don't start and end with writing any fiction is fine because its fiction (even tho thats the main view which i agree with), theres a lot of believing of the preservation of fandom culture on that side, which has always been one way of course, until the "puriteens" showed up which is silly and it just as easily leads to harassment as antis beliefs can do and can end up leading to misogynistic and racist beliefs too. Always believing you're the victim in a scenario (say you're a proshipper thinking you're up against a wave of antis) can often make you believe that any action you take is justified which can lead to you harassing and abusing people and claiming youre defending yourself before theyve harmed you. As long as you feel you're being harassed, as proshippers often claim they do over anything that disagrees with their views, its fine for you to attack. Proshippers can be just as abusive online as much as anyone can.

[kikishead]

I can't just leave it at this I need to rant a little.

Like this discussion is so black and white, and everyone completely ignores the fact that the others' experiences may be just as valid. This is my personal view on it from my personal experience.

As a European, I get that it is frustrating to constantly be bombarded with American things. Like American movies, songs, books, political discussions, and news. And America has so much power over other countries, including European ones. Our lifes are often centred around America, especially when you're on english speaking social media. And American imperialism is a very real thing. The US is almost the only country that has actual cultural power over Europe.

So europeans, especially those who are not used to another country having cultural power over them, will feel threatened. And that's one reason why europeans hate on Americans so much. Because they treat us the way we treat other countries.

And americans saying "Oh you want to be us so bad, and that's why you're hating" is kinda stupid. Like, no, we just get America shoved down our throats.

But another reason for europeans hating on America is that europeans tend to think that we're better and more humane than everyone else. (I know very ironic considering what we did and still do to the rest of the world) When we hate on America, we can openly show this false belief of superiority without being called out for being racist/xenophobic/just straight up assholes bc "look at America with all of their problems and their whole "America first" spiel ofc you're not a dick for making fun of them". Ofc that does not apply to all europeans but to some.

But to be honest, we're often not any better than Americans. Racism is just as big of an issue in europe as it is in America, the way we treat people trying to find refuge in europe is just as bad as the way America treats Mexican people on their border and we suck at geography just as much with the only exception that we know Europe's and northamericas geography (not even the whole of europe). (I mean, it is a stereotype that Americans can't even point out the continents, and I guess most europeans can do that, but still). Europeans like to complain that Americans treat europe as a playground or that they generalise us, but we do the same thing to Africa and asia. And quite a lot of Americans seem to be ignorant of how much power their country has over other countries and stuff, but I can't really blame them. I mean europeans are often ignorant of how much influence europe has. If Americans only saw the stupid and entitled europeans, they would think that we're fcking idiots too. (And there are a lot of Americans who think that about Europeans, which is fair tbh)

Like I mentioned in the beginning, there is a very strong focus on America in europe. And this is one of the reasons why europeans hate on Americans so much.

However hating on America won't divert that focus back to our own countries. If anything, it will make our focus on America way stronger, and we often ignore the problems in our own countries bc of that. An example of that is when the black lives matter movement became very big in 2020. I saw so many comments of european people who were like, "Oh yeah racism in America is such a big issue, but why are there black lives matter protests here in Germany? Like we're not as racist as racist as them." And there are so many things to criticise about comments like that, but I won't get into that right now. They just show how the focus on American society and politics makes us blind to our own. But also europeans use that. When they support the black lives matter movement in America, they can label themselves as antiracist, without actually doing the same amount of work a white American antiracist has to do bc they don't have to question their own society and culture as long as they focus on racism in America. This is not necessarily something europeans do consciously bc as I mentioned before , we often get introduced to blm and other social justice movements by Americans on social media, so we automatically get a very American perspective on these things. meaning we know how racism is part of the dominant American culture but if we don't do the work to research on the history in our own countries ( or find creators from our own countries who talk about racism in our country) we are ignorant to how racism is part of the culture of our country. But a lot of europeans choose to be ignorant of racism in europe in the same way a lot of white Americans choose to be ignorant of racism in America. But this is just one example.

Like I said before, the focus on American issues leads to (sometimes willful) ignorance towards the issues that are going on in ones own country. But it also leads to people automatically applying American social issues (and their complex cultural details) to their own country. For example, when I look at discussions about feminism in Germany, a lot of times, American statistics are used. Meaning they take a study that was conducted in America with American test subjects and apply it to Germany. There are some studies that were made in Germany (I guess) but they are not well known and not used a lot in discussions about sexism and other social and cultural issues. While the dominant American and dominant German culture have some similarities they are not the same. The same study may have different results in Germany than in America. And we need studies that have been done in Germany to get an idea of problems in Germany. Also there may be some problems in Germany that don't exist in America or that don't exist in the same way in America.

So to summarize: America has power over Europe (American imperialism). Europeans hate on and make fun of Americans bc we constantly get American stuff showed down our throats, we get to feel superior to them without being called out for being racist/xenophobic. Europe is not that much better than America. We're lowkey just pissed bc America treats us the way we treat other countries and continents. The focus on America does not get less from us hating on and making fun of them. The focus on America leads to ignorance regarding social issues in europe.

Some last notes: I probably overanalysed this, but it lowkey got from making fun of one another to straight-up fighting, so maybe it's warranted. We should just start being able to recognise that both Europe and America are shit in a lot of ways and allow ourselves to laugh at jokes about our countries that are not crossing a line (like making fun of mass shootings and stuff like that will never sit right for me). English is obviously my second language, and I have not written a text this long in English since I graduated high school, which was last year, so if this is a complete mess, I am sorry. I tried to organise my thoughts a little bit and tumblr corrected some grammar mistakes and stuff, but idk how well that worked out.

Honestly this whole thing of europeans hating on Americans and Americans hating on Europeans and getting mad about Europeans hating on Americans and then Europeans being pissed that Americans are mad about them hating on America is so weird to me.

[rf-times]

Radblr needs to be better about simply blocking trads on here. I can't see these people as anything but malicious because of what they do. Taking feminist arguments and removing the leftist ideals to push conservative values. For a lot the orbiters on here feminism is just a phase for them because they feel depressed. They'll move on eventually when they get bored. Or when they feel the feminists here are being top hard on men.

I think the most harmful version of this is the racism and nationalism. There'll be blatant racist shit like "black men act like animals, immigrant men are dangerous and infiltrating our countries, third world countries need to be civilised." and women will reblog it and when criticised for racism and told it comes from racist sources they'll be like "uwu but i'm supporting women of colour?? Men of colour oppress women of colour so therefore literally any means of attacking moc must be feminist"

And I would say that feminists need to confront racism and colonialist attitudes with as much passion as they confront their internalised misogyny but most feminists don't particularly confront their internalised misogyny to the extent they need to at all. You see so many women who still clearly believe so many of patriarchy's lies "women are weak and stupid and inferior and masochistic." but now also believe that men oppress women. They don't want to read theory and end up not understanding or believing in socialisation, instead opting for "women are spineless doormats who crave abuse genetically and we're doomed."

Then there's the "gender critical" women who don't even really believe that men oppress women ("you're too hard on men! feminists have a duty to change men and if you don't believe men can be changed through a woman's love then you're saying we're going to live in patriarchy forever"), believe femininity is natural, that lesbians are predatory, etc.

Then religious (mainly Christian but a couple Muslim women too) women who refuse to think critically ("Our patriarchal father figure loves men and women equally" does not cut it for radical analysis lol) and pro-forced birth women.

Long story short, radblr won't get rid of trad women until it sorts its values out rather than paying lipservice to it. Less "radical feminism can't be racist because it's the main sort of feminism in third world countries!" and more introspection is key.

[waterlily707]

Current Issue of Clonecest and fetishization within the fandom.

Please read as this pertains to the moth au

I will address the issues being discussed currently and hopefully spread some awareness to this problem.

Link to a post by @Nibuel and @Clonehub that has gone into detail about the issue with the fandom currently when it comes to romanticising the clones.

#UnwhitewashTBB (tumblr.com)

Thanks to these creators so much for speaking more clearly about this problem and helping me self-reflect when it comes to my art in general and how I've gone about depicting these characters.

Fetishization problem:

First of all, I'd like to apologize because I'm not free of the fetishization problem either, it hasn't become a huge problem on my page, but I've talked about how I wanted to write clone x reader fics without thinking. Even in my art and past art I've drawn these characters in the dreaded uwu context also without thinking more deeply about how this impacts others.

The problem within the fandom at the moment that I've seen people coming forward about is the fact that people are seeing these characters within their own head cannons and idealism instead of what they really are, and I am sorry that I've fed into some of those ideals or depictions explicitly before.

(I'm not kanaka maoli, I'm a haole, but I have a deep respect and love to the ones who raised me and will Ho'omau the traditions, stories and morals taught to me by those from back home.)

I will do better, and I will be better, I come from Hawai'i and there's an explicit fetishization problem with the Kanaka Maoli and other residents there, Hawai'i is romanticised rather than respected. It makes me feel sick to think that in a way I began doing the same thing I criticised other people of doing to my neighbors, my friends, family, teachers, and others I knew who I grew up with back home just in a different yet still harmful way that in turn hurts the Maori.

If you didn't know the clones are Maori and are based on actor Temuera Morrison who hails from Aotearoa (New Zealand).

How does this tie into the future, and the moth au:

For one I need you all to understand that I made the moth au as an appreciation of these characters but because I did that I need you guys to understand that in certain areas of the Au I have slipped up and fed into some of these issues

(Thankfully not straight up racist stereo types but still some issues that can be demoralizing to others)

I really need to reflect and fix what needs fixing when I continue this au. It really saddens me because it was also partially a reason why I made this au in the first place but I'm going to change that and work to making it better.

I'm genuinely sorry, and I will do my best to fix the damage I've caused in turn but please be aware that I'm not giving up on the au and if anything, this gives me a drive to improve upon and make it better than what I started with. I ask you all to do the same moving forward, all it takes is a little self-reflection.

Clonecest problem:

On the next point, I'm fine with drawing and writing these characters within relationships that are, adult, consensual, overall make sense within the cannon, and aren't clones x clones, for God's sake.

I've approached someone in the past with a level of compassion and understanding in letting them know that I didn't stand with clonecest and subsequently why I didn't stand with it and thankfully they understood instead of getting mad at me. Hopefully I wish that the person in question learns from this and recognizes their faults, I think we all hope for the benefit of the doubt that people can learn and change with time, but they need to put in the work not you.

I don't support Clonecest, rexsoka, anisoka, or any ships that has to do with any underage x older characters, or sibling pairings because it disgusts me and I've had the misfortune of seeing people hurt in life because of these scary realities.

You have no idea what you're playing with when you encourage these ships, you have no concept of the things people have been through because of incest, pedophilia, mental illness, and PTSD related to these issues. I have family and dear friends who had seen and experienced these horrors, and I will not stand for it. As my family, friends, and loved ones have stood strong against these abhorrent things I will too, and I will never change my mind about them no matter what you tell me. I'm sorry if I've hurt your feelings but go and watch some documentaries about these issues, video essays and real-life recounts of these events by people who provide the recourses for you to learn about them more.

PI and BI-POC people go through these horrors more often than white people, and by supporting ships like this you're hurting those who have survived these things, and those who stand within the PI community.

How does this affect the moth au:

Thankfully I have not taken part in any ships that pertain to the following I just listed out, but I have had some of my followers ask me if the ships will ever appear in the au and the answer continues to be no.

I genuinely hope that those who support those ships begin to do some seriously self-reflection and work on themselves as it will only continue to fester and become a problem within your real-life relationships not only with loved ones, but how you perceive strangers you hardly know.

Final thoughts:

You will never be the same person you were yesterday; you will continue to learn and grow from your experiences and from what other people teach you throughout your life, criticisms and all, but they have to be work that you put it, someone can't just come into your life and magically solve all of your issues, it's you who has to start the change and continue to do it.

I wish you all a good night, and again from the bottom of my heart if my actions, the media I've presented and the things I've talked about have hurt the BI-POC, PI, or any other indigenous folk I'm genuinely sorry, I will do better. Please forgive me.

[nicanario]

this post is a product of its time

tw: discussion of racism, homophobia, misogyny and a short mention of sexual abuse.

ok, this is basically gonna be a very long rambling post about my not fully developed thoughts on the justification many people give to bigotry when talking about the past: "it was a product of its time"

it would be fair to say, with me being a raging SJW socialist scumbag, that I don't think this is a very good argument and is most of the time actually an excuse to not think about the problems inherent to our society, historical or not, and, by extension, the problems with ourselves. but I do think that sometimes, just sometimes, this can be a valid point, or at least one that raises some interesting questions.

I'm going to cite examples from several pieces of media, but fear not, I'll try to make this as accesible as I can.

so, let's take Star Trek: The Original Series (TOS) as our first case study. this show has, correctly, been called progressive by everyone except for clueless people who don't know much about Star Trek's history, Star Trek's crew, Star Trek's cast, or, frankly, Star Trek. because if you ignore the clear, sometimes in-your-face political history and present of the franchise, I don't think you know much about it at all. I do think you can call yourself a fan if you like it, you may have watched every single episode for all I know. but lots of mental gymnastics are needed to ignore the political progressiveness Star Trek has had since its very beginning.

episodes like Let That Be Your Last Battlefield are obviously anti-racist, at least in their intention. but the episode in question really is "a product of its time," and at the very end fails to uphold its ideals. the episode ends with the two aliens (who are LITERALLY. BLACK ON ONE SIDE. AND WHITE ON THE OTHER. BUT IN THE OPPOSITE SIDES.) fighting each other on their devastated planet, and the crew is like, "oh yeah if they both would give up on their hatred that they both share both of them equally" when it has been firmly established that one is the oppressor and the other one is the oppressed.

and that's a lot of Star Trek, not just TOS. even Discovery, one of the most recent series, has done Bury Your Gays (and Trans) TWICE (though both times literally rectified it, which is cool). there are episodes of the franchise that are overtly racist, or misogynistic, etc. TOS is lauded, mostly justifiably, as very progressive, especially for the standards of the time. they put a woman of colour as one of the senior staff, for fuck's sake. of course, when you analyse that same character, as with most of their intentions at being progressive, you'll see that she was relegated and sometimes even outright mistreated when she had the potential to be much more. but, at that time, it was a lot.

I had a friend (emphasis on "had") who, after I told him about TOS's both progressiveness and constant misogyny, told me something like "imagine feminists trying to complain about a show from the 60s." so, with unearned spite, he was, in some way, trying to make the argument that it was a product of its time.

you could say Star Trek, all of Star Trek, is "a product of its time" in the sense that it's not always perfect. uh, yes, I would agree. but that doesn't mean people have to accept it. well, I mean, the show is kinda over, you have to accept it's that way. but you don't have to accept that it's not wrong just because it was a product of its time.

H. P. Lovecraft, as another example, was a greatly influential writer whose works still shape a lot of people's ideas to this day. I have only ever read like one of his stories, so don't expect me to have an opinion on his works. but I can have an opinion on what I know about him as a person (he did have a life outside his writing, after all). and, yeah, he was a huge asshole. if you want to know more in depth about the subject, please watch Hbomberguy's video on him: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8u8wZ0WvxI

but basically, he was incredibly racist & homophobic. some people might even say, "he was a product of his time." well, there are two possible rebuttals to that. the surface level one, and the one that examines why that argument is wrong to the core.

The Surface Level Response to "it was a product of its time": um, no it wasn't. Lovecraft was more racist than a lot of people even in his time. he wasn't just a guy who carried the racist beliefs of his society like everyone else, he was a reactionary who actively thought and discussed how racist he was, and how right he was for being that way. but that's only applicable to Lovecraft. one can't argue the same for Star Trek: TOS, because TOS did try to be more progressive and more anti-racist than the rest of its society. that leads us to the next response.

The Response that Actually Deals with the Fact that No Matter How Progressive You're Trying to Be, Your Failings Can Still be Criticized: the thing is, trying to excuse Lovecraft's or Star Trek's bigotry because they were "products of their times" misses the fact that racism is still wrong, and some people knew that in those times as well. people from these times weren't all naive or stupid or whatever. they had the capacity for rational thinking. they could stop and think, "hey, maybe what we're doing is wrong." and the fact is, some people did. not perfectly, not to our standars, but they did. everyone could have stopped and think. but most of them didn't, and we can criticize them for it. racism, homophobia, sexism, etc. HURT PEOPLE. horribly. massively.

also, even if you agree with the "it's a product of its time" argument, some people aren't criticising people's or work's bigotry: they're explaining why they don't want to experience it.

The Talons of Weng-Chiang is a 1977 Doctor Who serial, and it's one of the show's more racist stories. almost all the villains are Chinese, every single Chinese person is a villain. there's yellowface, slurs, stereotypes, the Doctor speaking nonsense words instead of actual Chinese, and a general belittling of Chinese culture.

note that I'm neither Chinese nor of Chinese descent. I have been searching for hours for a few posts I've read a while ago (some by people who are of Asian descent) about this episode and I can't find them. sorry.

suffice it to say, even though I love Jago & Litefoot (the audio series and the characters), it's not an acceptable episode at all. but it's also important to remark that, because of it, some people aren't going to want to watch it. sometimes, people aren't saying "the episode shouldn't be this way," which causes others to answer that it was "a product of its time." sometimes, people are just saying, "this is an episode that attacks real people. I don't want to see it. I don't care if it was common in that era to be racist, i don't want to experience it."

however, there is an interesting point to the "it's a product of its time" argument. after all, everything is influenced by its society, for better or worse. and we can't change it anymore. TOS sometimes didn't quite understand the political themes it wanted to explore. Lovecraft was a horrible bigot. Talons was racist towards Chinese folks. and that's that. I don't think we should change the episodes/stories or anything. edit them in any way. that would be, in a sense, changing history. and we wouldn't learn anything from it, about how we can do better.

I think there are two solutions to this:

1. warnings before starting the text: this was done with The Talons of Weng-Chiang. on Britbox, where you can watch Classic Who, this serial has a content warning before the start. that's good.

2. the removal as a whole of the text from some places: I think before applying this one, there should be a lot of thought put into each case. I don't think removing a whole serial of Doctor Who or Lovecraft's stories from anything would be, well, fair. especially on tv episodes a lot more people worked on those, not just the writers and the directors. Lovecraft's writing influenced thousands. we shouldn't erase them or anything. but sometimes, for some cases, we should.

those in the US might seen a Confederate statue being taken down. that is, in a way, a form of removal of a piece of history.

but that is a good removal. statues glorify. one sees a statue and probably thinks "this was a person worthy of admiration." they should be taken down, maybe even with a permanent mark of why this was done (a plaque that reads "a statue of X was here, but he didn't deserve it because of Y" could be put in place of the statues, for example).

another example is the removal from DVDs of the short episode A Fix with Sontarans, a Sixth Doctor minisode that featured Jimmy Savile, a presenter who was later found out to be sexually abusing children.

the removal of that minisode is good, actually. it's not a full episode (it's not even Doctor Who). some might say that's "erasing history" but, like, you can still find it online or information about it if you want. this minisode deserves removal from DVDs and Blu-Rays and whatever more than content warnings. it's not an important part of the show and it prominently features a horrible person who did horrible things during that time.

so, after all that, I have explained why I don't like the "it's a product of its time" argument. it is an interesting point that deserves to be examined, but it's not very good.

I have had this in Drafts for so long I've probably forgot some of the points I was going to make, but eh, what can you do? hope you enjoyed reading this.

bye

[freddiefiction]

It's quite worrying how many people have this strange idea that criticising terrible behaviour is somehow worse than the behaviour itself. And it's not just on here, it's everywhere. I was watching a true crime documentary on youtube the other day, and someone commented saying how they wanted the murderer to suffer in prison (rightfully so.) Several of the replies were all like, 'it's not our place to judge.' 'We can't judge him, God will.' 'You have to be the better person and forgive.' 'If you're judging him, you're just as bad.'

This is a serial killer we're talking about. A man who brutally assaulted and murdered several women and has shown zero remorse. Yet somehow calling him out for it was "just as bad" as him murdering people. I understand that religious people have a thing about forgiveness, because that's what most holy texts preach about, but I'm not ashamed to say that I think no one is obligated to forgive, especially for crimes as terrible as murder. For all we know, God doesn't exist, and these criminals won't get their comeuppance after death. That's enough for me to be perfectly comfortable with judging them, as any sane human would.

I know this is an extreme example, but it goes to show just how far people push this "don't criticise" narrative. I know there are some situations where compromises can be made, but when it comes to topics that actively harm other people (any kind of bigotry, murder, abuse, etc.) there are no excuses and victims should not be pressured into feeling like they're in the wrong for refusing to be reasonable with people who defend such terrible views.

I couldn't agree more, anon. If I had a penny for all the times I've seen people get more angry at criticism of harmful behaviour than the behaviour itself, I'd be a millionaire.

You're absolutely right when you say that no one is entitled to forgiveness. Forgiveness is something that should benefit the victim, and the victim only. If it brings them some sort of peace and helps them move on from their trauma, then they should be free to forgive. They also have every right not to forgive, because some things are simply unforgiveable.

As someone who was raised Christian, the whole "turn the other cheek" rhetoric has always bothered me. The idea that we can never judge, because only God can judge, bothers me also. Like you said, there's no guarantee that God exists. There's no guarantee that a serial killer will face proper justice in an afterlife. It's most likely that they'll live their lives in a comfortable prison cell and then cease to exist after death. I'm sorry but I'm going to judge the fuck out of a man who assaults and murders women because it gives him some sick satisfaction. If God gets mad at me for using the natural instincts he gave me, that's on him.

Moving away from the religious arguments, I think another reason people seem desperate to be "neutral" on such controversial topics is because they either agree with the negative opinions (but are too scared to admit it and face the backlash), or they somehow think being centrist about everything makes them look morally superior and mature. Like you said, there are some topics where there's no problem picking a side (like whether you think pineapple belongs on pizza), but when it comes to stuff like straight up bigotry and remorseless serial killers, you really can't be in the middle.

It makes me so angry that some have the audacity to tell victims and marginalised people that they should be "understanding" when it comes to those who push views that actively harm them. I sound like a broken record, but I don't care if a mass murderer who killed innocent people had a rough childhood. I don't care if a person who says homophobic bullshit is from a "different generation." I don't care if the local racist was once mugged by a black man. Some of these situations can explain a person's behaviour, but it never ever excuses it.

[apxlllo]

I'm gonna explain this all really clearly because I actually wanna try and see the good in people, and I genuinely want you to understand my point of view here and for me to educate you.

Here's why people are angry about Notch:

Notch called trans women "mentally ill" for being trans. He claimed that white privilege doesn't exist (it does). He proudly said there should be a heterosexual pride day and when people opposed it, he said they "deserved to he shot."

To break this down: being trans isn't a mental illness (I don't have the energy to go into more detail on this right now). White privilege does exist and claiming it doesn't is racist (I'm white and I'm well aware of how that means I'm privileged over people of colour - I don't have to fear ever getting shot by the police for my skin colour. This is really simplifying it but if I fully explain white privilege I'll be here all night, plus as I'm white, I'm never gonna be able to explain it as well as a person of colour.) Heterosexual people don't need a pride day because they have never been oppressed for their sexuality. Being straight isn't a crime anywhere in the world - you'll never have to fear getting heckled on the street for holding your partner's hand, you'll never have to avoid certain countries for fear of being jailed or killed etc. Pride isn't just "lol let's wave rainbow flags about" - it's a celebration of who we are and a memorial to all the lgbtq+ people who've died from AIDS or been murdered for who they are.

Yeah, the man invented Minecraft. That doesn't automatically mean I'm gonna respect him at all. Why do you think I would? I'm not gonna worship or respect anyone who calls my trans sisters mentally ill, or spouts homophobic bs, or who acts like privilege isn't a thing.

Now onto Adobe

Adobe has every right to criticise KB and the Meatly. All fans of every single piece of media ever are allowed to criticise media and creators (though I will say that I mean that for things that actually deserve to be criticised and not like. Some dumb shit that's completely unfounded with nothing to back it up.) Honestly, critical thinking should be encouraged! No one should be blindly worshipping media and creators, it's just unhealthy. I love Bendy and the Ink Machine, but I will gladly point out its flaws rather than deny they exist, same with any media I like. Criticising it doesn't even have to be hateful, it can literally just be "well, I think they definitely could have done x better" or "hm, I wish the creator would listen to their fans on xyz issue"

Adobe has never been like "Well I think we should all murder the Meatly because of 'insert completely inane non-issue here'". They've simply criticised things that deserve to be criticised (I'll get to that in a moment.)

Notch is transphobic, homophobic, and racist. People are allowed to be angry and criticise him for that. If people DIDN'T criticise him for that, it would be a problem. People shouldn't be allowed to get away with bigotry. Yes, freedom of speech exists, but that doesn't mean freedom from consequences. Notch wasn't taken off Minecraft the second he said one bigoted thing. He said a lot of shit before he was finally booted. That means he had the chance to change and he didn't. Therefore he faced the consequences of his actions and bigotry.

This doesn't mean you're not allowed to like Minecraft. You can! I love Minecraft. But I can still recognise the creator isn't a nice person. These things can co-exist.

During Q&A's, the Meatly deliberately ignored all lgbt fans with questions about character's sexualities. That might not sound like an issue to you, but lemme explain why it is. Lgbtq+ representation is... really fucking lacking. It's either non-existent or completely fetishistic and both of those options suck. Now if the Meatly had given a bare minimum answer like "Well the characters sexualities can be whatever you want, it's fine to think Joey is gay or Henry is trans" then honestly, I'd have been happy with that. It's not an AMAZING answer, but hey, it shows that he's at least open to lgbtq+ fans and their interpretations. By ignoring us entirely, it shows he doesn't care and is sweeping fans under the rug. It hurts. Especially when there's gay subtext in the books (Half has a good post on the not-so-straight shit in the latest novel The Illusion of Living). No one is going up to try Meatly and pointing a gun at his little puppet like "Make every single character gay RIGHT NOW or I'll blow your cotton brains out." We just want acknowledgment and right now, we're not getting that, which is why there's a lot of gay content in the fandom.

KB and the Meatly have also done some questionable business practices which again, should be looked at.

People don't want to support creators if the creators are shitty or like, explicitly hate them.

I'm not saying you have to like Adobe, or even agree with their opinions. I just want you to understand why they (and lots of other people in the BATIM fandom) criticise KB and the Meatly, or why anyone criticises any piece of media.

I don't know anything about Unknown Worlds so I can't comment on that.

I really do hope you think about everything I've said. If you don't agree or change your mind then okay, at least I tried. Sorry for this turning into a full on essay, I just wanted to really get my points across

Hey so the comment thing is broken so I'll say it here, you're right about a lot of things, but the post was just me venting about how I felt. That's it. I'm just an angry person. I already said I was sorry for sounding like an asshole. I had more to say here but I forgot so yeah have a nice day.

This gets like. A 3/10 for effort. Thank you for admitting I was right, at least

It's not just a vent if you put it in all the main tags and @ two very well known people in the fandom (and straight up saying you wanna hit one of them for being rightfully critical about a piece of media you like, like what the fuck??) but Aight. Sure, I guess

Also "I'm just an angry person" and "I already said I was sorry for sounding like an asshole" isn't a good apology or defence for blatant homophobia (like saying gay people having gay ships makes you angry, or that interacting with gay people makes you wanna join a hate group. Again, your words, not mine)

You are right though, you clearly are an angry person and an asshole, and I genuinely hope you actually learn some compassion one day and unlearn your bigoted thinking so you can be pleasant to interact with, rather than the deeply unlikeable person you are right now

Have a lovely rest of your day :)

[bi-dazai]

I'm very sick of this notion that any non-western country is always less homophobic that the west, especially in terms of media and particularly in terms of media from Japan, which is a media giant particular in the idol, jrock, and anime industries.

Yes, sure, yaoi is pretty bad! But so is a lot of western gay media. Were all too ready to criticise any yaoi, yuri, bara, or anime or manga that features a same-sex pairing or hints at a same-sex pairing (banana fish, Yuri on ice), but as soon as any kind of gay media comes out in Hollywood y'all go rushing into it without any kind of criticism at all. You can openly say you like love, Simon or Alex strangelove or blue is the warmest colour or princess cyd without any notion of needing to criticise these films (of which all have major issues). But the moment any kind of gay-coding happens in anime suddenly we're all not allowed to enjoy it at all - we HAVE to understand that it's actually homophobic. And of course criticism is good, but criticism should be applied across the board, and the amount of backlash to non-western LGBT representation to western LGBT representation is ridiculous.

I feel that many people forget that it's far, far easier to find LGBT content and representation in the Japanese animation and manga industry than it is in most western media industries. I have to scrounge for LGBT films, most of which involving plots I don't particularly care about. I don't really like romcoms or coming of age films about upper middle class white teenagers, but that's a lot of what I've got. If I want something involving vampires and girls in love then I'm gonna be hard pressed to find it in the west. Japan's yuri industry and exchange alone has plenty of variety! There's even fucking SEINEN anime that fits the bill (tonari no kyuuketsuki-san)!

Im really fucking sick of people saying that any and all anime and manga is embarrassing and a guilty pleasure. Yes, it has its flaws, but nobody is applying the same amount of pressure to media in the west that has just as many if not more flaws. Sure, anime is known for sexualised young girls. Guess what?! So is western media. Anime has produced a wide variety of quality, just like the west has. The reason we treat everything made in Japan with such ire is western supremacy - in particular, supremacy of western European cultures and practices. It's racism, orientalism, plain and simple.

Let me just point out that studio bones has produced some of the most gorgeous animation and storylines in history. Studio Ghibli has done the same. Japan has pioneered almost all modern animation styles and techniques. But anime is weird and strange and forbidden right? You're only allowed to like 'permissable' anime, you aren't allowed to just watch some random anime without someone hauling criticism into your inbox like the world is ending. Tonari no kyuuketsuki-san garners more criticism and hate than Carmen sandiego (a cartoon in which a literal slur is uttered several times in an episode and a British person plays an indigenous Australian). They have the same level of flawedness. But TNKS is anime and those dirty Japanese can't be better than our glorious western work, right?

And thus my original point refers back to homophobia and orientalism. The thing is, that anime is flawed. It's racist, misogynist, paedophilic, and, yes, homophobic! But...so is the western animation industry! Just as much! Each has its own unique and shared criticisms. Some areas are worse than others. But for some reason the entire anime industry and every anime production is demonised for existing while the west puts out bullshit like Voltron: legendary defender, Steven universe, Carmen sandiego....and I'm just naming animations that are just as flawed as most popular anime, but are hailed by westerners as "progressive" and as better alternatives to productions like my hero academia, mob psycho 100, and bungou stray dogs - all of which are, to be honest, superior to the above cartoons in terms of effort and talent, but cop far more criticism than western productions ever do.

I don't want people to NOT criticise the Japanese industry. But I want people to apply it in equal and logical measure.

The funniest thing studio bones does is put the most popular pairings together in promotion art at Christmas time like….I know you’re baiting me but it’s so ridiculous. Also what the fuck has the western animation industry got on the Japanese animation industry in terms of LGBT representation lmfao? I know dazai and chuuya are sometimes ‘fanservice’ but let’s be honest most cartoons in the west would Never even Hint at gays with a ten foot pole. Like I’m much happier getting Christmas time dates (keeping in mind Christmas is considered a romantic season in Japan) in art and cards between their most popular bnha pairing (kiribaku) and their most popular bungou stray dogs pairing (soukoku) than often blatant homophobia and refusal to acknowledge any kind of romantic chemistry between two same-sex characters as many animations in the west tend to do