#you specifically are the reason people get discouraged and stop posting fanfiction

[kedreeva]

Reading and loving second first chances! I just wanted to mention, in case you hadn't thought of it; I don't think Steve and Eddie would have used the "@" symbol as code in the 80s as it was a purely obscure scientific thing until the email, which was not widely used until about 10 years later. Just something I noticed. Thanks again for the story! 😊

This is not an appropriate message to send to a fanfic writer without solicitation first. If you're unsure why, please visit my /commenting tag for my opinions on unsolicited critique on fanfiction.

As such, you are not welcome for the story. It was clearly not written for you. Please excuse yourself from ever reading it again. While you're at it, get off my other stories until you learn some goddamn manners.

[rivkae-winters]

Edit: the app launched and Is down- I have the initial apology video in a post here and I’m working on getting a full archive of their TikTok up ASAP. I’m letting the rest of this post remain since I do still stand by most of it and also don’t like altering things already in circulation.

Warning for criticism and what I’d consider some harsh to outright mean words:

So I’ve just been made aware of the project known of as ‘lore.fm’ and I’m not a fan for multiple reasons. For one this ‘accessibility’ tool complicates the process of essentially just using a screen reader (something native to all I phones specifically because this is a proposed IOS app) in utterly needless and inaccessible ways. From what I have been seeing on Reddit they have been shielding themselves (or fans of the project have been defending them) with this claim of being an accessibility tool as well to which is infuriating for so many reasons.

I plan to make a longer post explaining why this is a terrible idea later but I’ll keep it short for tonight with my main three criticisms and a few extras:

1. Your service requires people to copy a url for a fic then open your app then paste it into your app and click a button then wait for your audio to be prepared to use. This is needlessly complicating a process that exists on IOS already and can be done IN BROWSER using an overlay that you can fully control the placement of.

2. This is potentially killing your own fandom if it catches on with the proposed target market of xreader smut enjoyers because of only needing the link as mentioned above. You don’t have to open a fic to get a link this the author may potentially not even get any hits much less any other feedback. At least when you download a pdf you leave a hit: the download button is on the page with the fic for a reason. Fandom is a self sustaining eco system and many authors get discouraged and post less/even stop writing all together if they get low interaction.

3. Maybe we shouldn’t put something marketed as turning smut fanfic into audio books on the IOS App Store right now. Maybe with KOSA that’s a bad idea? Just maybe? Sarcasm aside we could see fan fiction be under even more legal threat if minors use this to listen to the content we know they all consume via sites like ao3 (even if we ask them not to) and are caught with it. Auditory content has historically been considered much more obscene/inappropriate than written content: this is a recipe for a disaster and more internet regulations we are trying to avoid.

I also have many issues with the fact that this is obviously redistributing fanfiction (thus violating the copyright we hold over our words and our plots) and removing control the author should have over their content and digital footprint. Then there is the fact that even though the creator on TikTok SAYS you can email to have your fic ‘excluded’ based on the way the demo works (pasting a link) I’m gonna assume that’s just to cover her ass/is utter bullshit. I know that’s harsh but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s probably a duck.

I am all for women in stem- I’ve BEEN a woman in Stem- but this is not a cool girl boss moment. This is someone naive enough to think this will go over well at best or many other things (security risks especially) at worst.

In conclusion for tonight: I hope this person is a troll but there is enough hype and enough paid for web domains that I don’t think that’s the case. There are a litany of reasons every fanfic reader and writer should be against something like this existing and I’ll outline them all in several other posts later.

Do not email their opt out email address there is no saying what is actually happening with that data and it is simply not worth the risks it could bring up. I hate treating seemingly well meaning people like potential cyber criminals but I’ve seen enough shit by now that it’s better to be safe than sorry. You’re much safer just locking all your fics to account only. I haven’t yet but I may in the future if that is the only option.

If anyone wants a screen reader tutorial and a walk through of my free favorites as well as the native IOS screen reader I can post that later as well. Sorry for the heavy content I know it’s not my normal fare.

[bluerose5]

I'm writing this because a) it's my blog, I can do whatever the hell I want and b) I've been seeing such an increase of these types of posts on my dash and for the website/app that preaches that they're about "community", some of y'all are pretentious as fuck when it comes to fandom.

Why am I seeing all these damn posts lowkey belittling people, whether it be in a "joking" sense or otherwise, about how they do fandom? Then the OPs wanna cry in the replies about how they didn't mean it that way when people address it, and some of these posts go completely unchallenged as well. And the fact that so many people are reblogging these posts is so discouraging! Y'all, I hate to tell you but just because you headcanon things for this reason over another, just because you stick to a certain amount of canon compared to others, or you characterize so and so character based off of these specific bits of canon, oooo it's so "in-character"... Say it with me now, THAT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BETTER FAN IN ANY INHERENT SENSE.

These posts have been veiling these sentiments under joking tones or by specifically trying to make it a preference thing, but there is often an air of superiority to them that is so easy to see, especially as a writer. I cannot stress this enough. STOP ALIENATING YOUR FAN CREATORS BY SUGGESTING ONE METHOD OF FANDOM IS INFERIOR TO OTHERS. If it's not hurting anyone, then be supportive. Now, of all times, is not when we should be tearing others down with these slick ass remarks, thinking y'all actually did something with those posts. And if anyone reading this feels guilty or defensive about what I said for some reason or another, then evaluate why that is and how you can do better to support your fandom creators better.

To any creators who need to hear this, write that crackfic, write that ship with no interaction, write that crossover. Get silly with it, and just write it, no matter what the haters say! I remember when I was younger and just started reading fanfiction, some of my favorite indulgent fics were those where the cast of characters would read the book/watch the movie/interact with their chosen media they were from. Those fics got me through hard times, and I loved the author's notes where the writers spoke with the characters. Point is, don't let anyone take your fun, magic, and joy out of fandom. Don't let them convince you that what you do is somehow lesser or "cringe" because you're having a good time. Somewhere, someone out there is your target audience and they're more than grateful for what you do! 💙

[fcntasmas]

friendly (and a little passive aggressive if i’m being honest lmao) psa:

when a fanfiction author posts their work on a specific platform, it doesn't give you or anyone else the right to repost it elsewhere without their explicit permission.

authors post their work for FREE to share their stories with you; you taking their work and posting it elsewhere — whether or not you claim it as yours — is a violation of the trust they’ve granted you as a reader. it doesn’t matter if you credited them. it doesn’t matter if you just wanted to share a story that brought you joy with more people. that’s what a hyperlink is for.

besides that, an author has the right to decide where their work is published, and reposting it without permission is not only a violation of their intellectual property rights, but under the DMCA, even if you’ve credited the work appropriately, it still constitutes copyright infringement.

(this is especially important to know for certain fic authors who may be concerned about their work being misrepresented or misattributed in any way. you CAN file a DMCA takedown notice if this ever happens to you.)

legalities aside, it can also just. lead to confusion and disputes which would not only be stressful for everyone involved, but it drives a wedge between authors and readers everywhere moving forward — which should not be the case in what’s meant to be a collaborative and encouraging community, honestly.

basically, your best bet here: don’t be an asshole. don’t be presumptuous. respect an author’s work. if they’ve only posted a work on AO3 and nowhere else, that doesn’t mean you get to take it and post it on Wattpad. (or fanfic.net, or any other fic site.) it probably means that’s the ONLY place the author wants their work to exist, since that’s where they can continue to interact with their readers, clarify anything that may have been misconstrued, or even update/edit something they’re not proud of/don’t agree with anymore in the future.

and, if there comes a day when an author wants to delete the work, we want to make sure it’s deleted FOR GOOD. we can’t fucking do that if someone’s decided to take it upon themselves to post it anywhere else.

if you or anyone you know has reposted fic to other sites without explicit permission before, please, please take the stories down. don’t do it again. it’s disheartening, it’s annoying, and, quite frankly, discouraging to authors.

there’s a reason so many fic authors stop posting their stories. numerous individuals have had their trust and intellectual rights violated before, and it just — makes us not want to post these stories anymore, for fear we’ll lose control of what’s ours.

try to be better. seriously.

[gentlebeardsbarngrill]

Re: discussing fan works publicly.

As a writer, I imagine coming across a post on my dash at random, of people openly criticising a fic I’ve written and the thought makes me feel ill. I think it would genuinely stop me from posting my work, maybe not permanently but for a long time.

As a reader, I’m so grateful people post fics at all. I’d be mortified if I saw people shitting on a fic I love on social media.

I think if a work is problematic and you’ve already commented to ask the author to tag appropriately or make changes and it’s gotten you no where, and you’re posting a PSA to warn people in the fandom who will be affected by the work to tread carefully, then yeah I can see how that would be necessary.

But I personally think it’s unnecessary to make a post mentioning a fic or author with comments like “yeah this fic needed to be beta read” or “this author writes this character soooo OOC” or “this character would NOT do that” or “look at this fic why would anyone ship this lmao”.

Feels like this really could just be in the DMs or a group chat or discord server where the author won’t come across it. Obviously yeah, people can post whatever they want on their blogs, but do people want to be the reason a fanfic author decides to never write again?

I’m like you. If I don’t like a fic, I just tap out. I don’t even complain about it in DMs because what if the other person enjoys it? I’m not taking that away. Just because it’s not my cup of tea doesn’t give me the right to stop someone else drinking it. The most I’ll ever do is block or mute an author on AO3 so I don’t accidentally read their works again.

These aren’t published books people are writing where public criticism is expected and encouraged. This is fanfiction written completely unpaid, usually unedited, specifically to share with a very selective fandom space.

There’s a level of vulnerability to all writing, but fanfic writers in particular, I would say most (if not all of us) choose to share our fics online because we trust fandom to be kind.

If people wanna post about their “honest thoughts” of a fic on social media, writers can’t stop them, but, god I hope y’all are being kind.

Hey ship! Thanks for weighing in on this! I appreciate your point about people being afraid to post if they hear negative criticism. Sorry for my delay, it's been a busy week. Yeah I think it's definitely a hard balance. We don't want to discourage people from writing, for sure. Writing is a gift! No one's being paid to write fanfiction.

From what I've heard from other people this week after my question was that it seems like there's a balance in terms of criticism on a specific fic. If you have a pairing that is very common, then if you write vaguely about not liking a pairing/fic it doesn't usually cause stress because it's not clear who's it is and it could be anyone. In general, it sounds like if someone wants to talk about something in a fic that bothers them, it is fine as long as they're not tagging the author/fic-- but generally just don't be a dick about it. Where it sounds like some wrinkles come in is if a pairing doesn't have a lot of fics attached to it. Then if a pairing is mentioned, it's much easier to deduce which fic it is, and then the writers may feel bad and it may seem more like a passive aggressive move. I think where it gets even more hairy is if we're not even talking about fics, we're talking just about pairings. Like I really love discussing the implications of specific pairings because I find it very useful to understand why someone might find it endearing. I'll be hard pressed to ever be pulled from my OTP but sometimes discussing pairings can help me to like a pairing I didn't like before, or just understand where people are coming from. (That's how I feel basically about all conversation, I like listening and learning from people, even if I don't necessarily agree by the end of it, being able to understand other people's perspectives help me to grow as a person, so I do think it's important to talk about things). Again though, where it seems like some of the struggle with that is if you've got a pairing (I'm going to crack ship Jackie and Buttons for this example) that isn't very common, again, it could seem like you're coming off as criticizing a fic when you may just be criticizing a pairing in general. It seems like there's a delicate balance-- because yeah I absolutely never wanna make anyone feel bad about their writing-- and like you said, writers trust that their fellow fans are going to be kind (and I never wanna betray that trust!). If they ask for feedback/ constructive criticism I'm happy to dm about it if it will help, but I don't want to make someone feel bad about their writing in general. We are all just having fun here. It does also seem like there are a lot of different perspectives when it comes to what is allowed feedback wise in fandoms, and so it seems like airing on the side of caution is a good way to go. All that being said-- if anyone ever wants to talk about things and they arent sure if what they say will be hurtful please feel free to dm me! I might be slow to respond depending on my capacity at home at the moment but i"m happy to talk it through. Also-- if I ever commit a faux pax or make someone feel bad please let me know! I never want to make people feel bad (and I try my best not to!), but I understand I'm an imperfect being like the rest of us so feedback is something I appreciate too. We all come from different levels of trauma... experience...neurodiversity, sometimes we won't say the right things from a place of ignorance, and one of the things I've appreciated over the years is when people were kind enough to give me constructive feedback about that. Anyway, thank you so much again for weighing in ship! Hope you're hanging in and have a lovely long weekend coming up! (if you're in the US, idk if the rest of the weekend is getting a day off)

[bjorkshire-pudding]

Hi, Valerie. I hope you're doing well. I read your intro/pinned post and got curious. Can I ask why you're moving away from writing for otome games? I found your blog through that and love your writing <3

Hi Anon! 👋🏾

First of all, thank you for stopping by. It makes me really happy to know you enjoy my writing. I've been trying to do a better job of complimenting work that I like, because I know how it feels to have someone say nice things about something you've put a lot of time and feeling into creating. So thank you! 💙🥹

There are a few different factors that influenced my decision to stop writing for otome games. I'm sorry this is going to be such a long answer, but I hope you can stick with me and see it through.

The first, and probably the most influential reason, is that I'm not consuming the media that much anymore. It's been a long time since I've played any of the games with any regularity. Part of that is because I've used some of that time consuming new, different media... but if I'm being honest with you, the other part is that I've simply sort of lost interest. In order for me to be able to enjoy the thing I'm creating about a piece of media, I need to be able to see myself in that world. And I realize that because I was always seeing the world through the eyes of the in-game MC - whom I couldn't relate to on many levels - I wasn't able to fully immerse myself in those worlds the way I know some others can. Which leads me into my second reason.

I have never liked writing in second-person, but when I first started writing for the otome fandom I very quickly learned that that is what people liked to read. I know things have changed recently, but years ago, no one really wanted to read fics written with my self-insert OC (or any other OC). And who could blame them? Again, otome is about the reader being able to immerse themselves in the game, and that's harder to do when you're reading about someone else's character having the experiences. I tailored my writing to fulfil that fandom-wide need for second-person fics, but I never really enjoyed writing that way. And that, my friend, leads me to the third reason.

I was lucky enough to have readers that enjoyed what I wrote and would follow my work, and I am forever grateful for that. But as time went by, I felt that the general mood of the fandom shifted from "we are all sharing what we've created with each other, encouraging each other and interacting with each other's work" to "there are a few writers who seem to get most of the support and attention, while perhaps less popular or newer creators (or even the writers who don't write in a specific style) get overlooked at best and downright ignored at worst." The community started to feel very much like a club, and I was sad to see a lot of the writers I'd become close to who didn't fit into a certain category with their style get discouraged and stop writing because of this. We all know how fanfiction and fanart works: engagement encourages people to continue creating things for the media they love. A person can have a great amount of love for a piece of media, but if there's no engagement with the work they create for it, eventually they will become discouraged and stop wanting to share what they create. Even if you are primarily writing for yourself, there is nothing wrong with wanting to know that others enjoy what you've made. That's human, and don't let anyone tell you it isn't normal or healthy. An environment that lacked that communal engagement and support for everyone, not just a few, wasn't the kind of environment I wanted to create things in, and that put a damper on my motivation to create things for that fandom.

The last reason goes hand in hand with what I said about not solely creating for other people. It was not the most influential reason, but it turned out to be the most important one: I wanted to get back to writing things I enjoyed. Not just things I would enjoy writing, but things I would enjoy going back to read for myself. I wanted to get to the point where it didn't matter that no one else wanted to read fics about my self-insert Black OC, because I enjoyed reading her and was proud of what I'd written. It's a lot easier to do that for a media that has no template. There is no MC to compare my self-insert OC to, and I am not trying to write something that other people can see themselves in. I can write her the way I want to see her, instead of feeling like I have to build her a certain way in order for people to want to read her. It's nice to write about the struggles I have with my hair type and texture, or to incorporate my body shape and size and my skin color into a fic without worrying that my readers won't be able to identify with her. Because I'm assuming that my readers go into my current and future works knowing this female lead is not for them to relate to, it gives me the freedom to write her in a way that I can relate to. And I can tell you that that has been one of the most satisfying, fulfilling, and freeing experiences I've ever had.

My otome works will always be there for anyone who has enjoyed them in the past and would like to continue enjoying them. But I won't be writing any new otome-based works for the foreseeable future - I have other things in the works that bring me more joy to write. I hope you'll stick around for those, but if not I understand! Either way, you are always welcome here, Nonny.

-Val 💙

About Me | My Fics | Ask

[enneamage]

your SBI post made me realize something, which is that the insistence on anything only ever being exactly what you say it is and nothing more, in the context of fanfiction, shipping, porn, etc. ie: "it's platonic cuddling, you're the one making it weird!" functions on the same principle as the mcyt fandom approach to politics does. saying the right thing is valued above all else, discourse begins and ends at nit-picking language, and you're discouraged from going out and doing external research instead of "listening to (x) voices," in other words, folding to public opinion (see: the ranboo racism apology phenomenon). The end result being that calling out racism, homophobia, transphobia, and so on, is constantly used as a convenient cover for a secondary goal. for example, ranboo fans recently digging up stuff to get mad at matpat for while in reality, they're just pissed off that he called ranboo an ex-dsmp member… but if you try to say they don't actually care, it makes you seem callous to bigotry (SO YOU DON'T CARE ABOUT RACISM? vs SO YOU'RE MAKING THE HAND-HOLDING WEIRD, CREEP?) obviously, unknowingly participating in a kink community is a lot more overtly dangerous, but it's the same tendency in a different context: if you actually interrogate the political issues you're discoursing about, you don't get to use them whenever it's convenient anymore. if you actually consider whether you're writing kink fanfiction and call it what it is, you either don't get to write that kind of fanfiction anymore OR you don't get to participate in "polite society" anymore. the obsession with lists of boundaries and either badgering the CCs about them or piecing them together wholesale if they don't already exist, which is what creates the "but it's Platonic cuddling, kissing, BDSM, and marriage, i promise!" excuse in the first place, is another fixation on precise language...

(if my phrasing here is a little convoluted it's because i'm posting in Tired Mode, and you have to forgive me.)

To be fair, there are a lot of fandoms that go way back that have co-opted social justice causes to try and get what they want. This goes back at least a decade, this corner of the streamer sphere is just the most recent and pointed example because you can directly address one cc and get a response really quickly compared to a showrunner or team of people. In a lot of ways social justice language is some of the only power people (especially young people) will have online when it comes to getting what they want, so I understand why nobody wants to let it go or frame it differently even when it’s a personal beef or self-interest.

It’s not like these people are never right, this is a Youtube/Twitch/gaming space and it’s loaded with bad behavior that I would rather people be mindful and aware of. The issue is as you said, you can usually track a secondary goal underneath the callout, and it’s rarely as clean as it’s presented as. For whatever baffling reason Ranboo had a bunch of racist people defending him and he’s had to try and find ways to get that to stop, and that continues to be very real, but people were also pissed off at Ranboo for a bunch of other reasons that went unspoken.  

In some ways this situation is the child of black-and-white thinking, something is either absolutely right or absolutely wrong, and by extension people are either absolutely right or absolutely wrong. People are very afraid of being absolutely wrong themselves, so they hunt down specific permissions to do things, and then use the letter of the law to protect themselves when someone says “hey this is kinda off.”  

[thelightofthingshopedfor]

re: your tags on the post defending people being dramatique about reblogs; whoever ghosted you over that is a dick, but also there has GOT to be a happy medium between "fuck you if you don't reblog everything you feel positively about" and "fuck you for asking for reblogs" like omg, tumblrinas plz, i am begging for like half an ounce of nuance i know this is the internet but please for the love of the blorbos stop the madness *headdesk*

I mean, yeah, I don't actually think guilt/shame is a good motivation for engaging with fandom, for a lot of different reasons, and tbh the overall tone of the post I just reblogged is probably more abrasive or something than what I've reblogged before or said myself. I mostly just reblogged this one because apparently I can't get over how hurt I feel over the whole basically-being-ghosted-by-a-long-term-friend thing (especially given that it made me feel really insane in a specifically neurodivergent way, like, "either I have massively misinterpreted literally everything about this relationship for years because I fundamentally don't understand friendship or social interactions in general, or you didn't mean anything you said to me, or you changed the rules at some point and didn't tell me").

but it's also just...deeply frustrating that even the mildest posts saying "if you don't do some very basic things to support the fanworks you like, you will start seeing a lot less of those fanworks, because those creators will get discouraged and stop producing it" gets categorized as whining or guilt-tripping when it isn't, it's literally just describing cause and effect. there are other posts scolding fan creators for expressing that discouragement or asking for a little damn engagement because we just want to feel like we're part of a community, all of which just contributes to the atmosphere of discouragement.

and it feels increasingly bizarre to me the more time I spend on Instagram, following all kinds of artists and small businesses, all of whom talk a lot about how important engagement is to what they do and how much their work lives and dies by The Algorithm and how crucial it is for people to take a few seconds and boost stuff they like because otherwise it just gets lost to the void, and I don't see the same backlash there of "well you should just be satisfied with creating for yourself, you shouldn't worry about stats, stop whining for attention, stop guilt-tripping people," whatever. granted, it's a different matter when there's money involved, because with a small business whose only source of advertising is social media, we're talking about someone's actual livelihood, but there's a huge amount of crossover with literally any artist--fanartist or otherwise--given that loads of them do also have Patreons or Ko-fi links or shops with physical items, or maybe they don't start out that way but when they build an audience organically they're able to bring in some actual money. and I've definitely seen people who aren't primarily selling things, who really are just producing art as a hobby, but still ask people to share their stuff because it encourages them to make more, and that seems to be seen as perfectly legitimate, except on Tumblr and also Reddit. fanfic is a little different because it's inherently an extremely bad idea to monetize, so there isn't the angle of "of course you want to share this so your favorite writer can keep food on the table!" but it doesn't seem like a huge stretch to say it follows a similar principle, right? if you like it, it just makes sense to support it in some small way, because then you're more likely to keep getting it? and if you don't make any effort to support it, then you can't complain when you stop getting it? (making this very basic point got me downvoted on r/Fanfiction because of course it did.)

and, I don't know, I personally get really discouraged begging for reblogs, and it would feel a lot better if I didn't have to. not even just my own fic (although, yes, especially that), but original posts about helpful resources or awesome Kickstarters or fic recs or cool free games or "hey this artist is doing charity commissions, look at their awesome art, please reblog so they can raise money for this important cause" mostly just all kinda fall into the void. not that I'm at all unique in that respect, obviously; anyone who doesn't have a big audience deals with that frustration (while people who do have big audiences get to deal with different problems, as I understand it, although I certainly wouldn't know from experience). it just sucks, you know?

[thewatercolours]

1, 3, 4, 11, 21

...I have a lot of questions haha

All right, here we go!

1. What inspired you to start writing fan fiction?

Oh, I was sobbing over Chapter Five, and needed Graham to be alive again, so I went looking for fanfiction. After a certain point of reading through the fandom's wonderful backlog, some switch flipped in my brain. I’d read my share of fic before, casually (and never left comments! Shame on me!) but for some reason this was the first time I ever thought, “I could do that.” And that was an appealing thought. My original novel I'd been working on for three or four years had stalled badly, and while the KQ longfics were my favourites, reading the oneshots made me think, “I could try some short fics like those as a treat - as a way to keep my writing skills sharp, since I need a break from this novel. And maybe it will do me good to write something where I won't have such high expectations of myself." So I wrote The Well Fic, and agonized over it for months before posting it. So much for ditching the high expectations! I was so perfectionist because I thought I had only one chance to make a good first impression, or something. I think I was working on "The Witch" at the same time too? Anyway, finally posted, got a kind reaction, got sucked in.

3. Are there any specific themes you enjoy exploring in your fics?

Well, specifically for KQ fics:

Here's a theme I like: Incredibly, unconditional love is real. I love that one, and I think it pops up in a lot of forms in my fic, often quietly. It shows up in the friendships, in the romance, in the family relationships. This is something so, so important to me in real life, so it's no wonder it plays a part in so many of my stories.

Another common one is getting overwhelmed by what you know you must do, struggling with it, and ultimately deciding the overwhelm and discouragement won't stop you. Stand up again, and give it a shot in a new way. Self doubt doesn't need to paralyze you - there will be a way through. (This one comes up more in the longfics - I'm thinking specifically Path of Kingship and Rippling Consequences. I have a bad habit of letting the story drag during the struggle portions, but I'm working on that.)

Oh, and all the different ways I keep coming back to the theme of reinventing your situation. Maybe it doesn't have to be about admin - maybe it can be about adventure, and that makes you just the guy for the job.

4. How do you channel characters' voices and personalities?

Lately? Replay or watching snippets of playthroughs helps. Making sure I can visualize the game models acting the scene, rather than the odd mix of different people's styles I tend to see when I'm reading a fic. Noticing moments in other people's fics that feel particularly in character, and asking myself, "Why does that ring so true and what can it show me about characterization?" (....And occasionally I do the Brandon Sanderson thing where I let the character go just slightly out of voice because I really want them to say the thing and I just can't resist.)

11. Are there any tropes that you particularly enjoy writing?

Oh man, I don't know! So many! So many! I don't know how to narrow this one down, so I'll turn it round on you guys. Do you notice any tropes I seem like using based on what you know from my fics?

21. Have you ever used fanfiction as a way to explore your own emotions or personal experiences?

There have been a couple of times when I did this purposely. "Candlelit Chat", for example, was both a way of processing some of my own creative angst, and wishing I could do more for my loved ones/friends who might be going through a hard time that I have no ability to help with, and can only listen.

But far more commonly, things I'm processing tend to come up without my realizing it till later. I've mentioned some of them before in passing. Graham's journey as a novice king who goes from self blame and discouragement to re-inventing kingship so that he can thrive and be the leader his people need - that's something I've used to explore some parts of accepting the way my brain works and working with it. And I realized after posting that Hector from Path of Kingship resembles... not so much a person I know as a situation I ran into? Personified, I suppose? I look back on Goblin Graham and go - oh, body and body image stuff, my old companion. And a couple of other things, personal things, here and there. It's always a bit hilarious to look back and go, "Oh - right. THAT was going on when I wrote that. I mean, in hindsight the connections are obvious."

[artificialqueens]

How do you deal with such little interaction when it comes to fics? How do you stay motivated to keep writing and keep posting? I've really started to hate writing recently because it seems like no matter how much time or effort I put into something or how much I like something before I post it, there are barely any likes or reblogs or whatever else. It makes it feel like a waste of time, it makes me feel like I'm an awful writer, and it makes me want to just stop altogether.

Hello angel!

I'm so sorry to hear that you're feeling discouraged. Believe me, I understand how frustrating it can be to pour your heart into something and feel like you're screaming into the void.

The interaction in this fandom, compared to other ones, does often seem pretty low, when you look at things like the hit to kudos/comment ratio on AO3 or how few people send in asks. On this blog especially, there were times in the past when pretty much every fic got 25-100 notes, and now it's rare and special if something reaches double digits.

I think it's really important for you to have at least a few people with whom you regularly interact - maybe this means people who help you brainstorm, maybe this means people who can beta for you (and vice-versa, if that's something you're comfortable doing), or maybe it just means a few people who you know have the same queen/ship obsessions as you, who will read your stuff and give you feedback, either in DMs, or anonymously here/on your blog, or AO3 comments, etc. Those few people will usually be enough to keep you motivated. I know that I often write with literally 2-3 specific people in mind, or occasionally even just one person, and if I hear back from them, that's enough for me to keep going. Anything beyond that is icing on the cake.

For me, fanfiction is much more fun and satisfying when there's a social component. That's why I always talk about how important it is to send in comments here and to interact with the fics you enjoy by leaving likes/kudos, or even reblogging to a fic-only sideblog. It's also why I personally stalk every person who sends me comments, sometimes relentlessly (lol), and I'm sure often annoying the fuck out of them.

I can also promise you that even writers who you think get tons of interaction, or who are very talented, feel the same way, because they're comparing themselves to people in even bigger fandoms, or to their own stuff a few years ago when things were more interactive, or for whatever reason.

I hope you don't stop writing, but I also don't think you should torture yourself if you're not having fun. And feel free to talk anytime, because I'm guessing way more people relate to you and to this feeling than you will ever imagine. 💖

[lightns881]

DreamNotFound Shipper Demographics and the Question on Whether Encouraging the Shippers is Unhealthy

So a couple of days ago I ran a poll on DreamNotFound shippers to capture demographics because a Reddit post (I will link it below) discussing the potential harm of Dream’s fanservice tactics (I’ve talked about it on a previous post) made me very curious as to the kind of audience he was attracting. 

Here are the results.

The survey consisted of four simple questions asking for gender, age, sexuality, and what kind of behavior they engage in when it comes to DreamNotFound.

Out of the 174 DreamNotFound shippers who responded, here are the overarching demographics for them.

Statistics 

Overall (174 Responses)

- 85.6% of total respondents identified as non-heterosexual

- All heterosexual respondents were female

- There were 8 times more female respondents than male respondents

- 37.9% of respondents were under the age of 16

Male (14 Responses)

- 50% of male respondents were under the age of 16, 1 respondent was 12 or under

- All male respondents identified as non-heterosexual with 42.9% identifying as homosexual, 42.9% identifying as bisexual/pansexual, 7.1% identifying as Asexual, and 7.1% identifying as Other

Female (116 Responses)

- 36.1% of female respondents were under the age of 16, 21% were over the age of 18

- 21% of female respondents identified as heterosexual, the majority (47.1%) identified as Bisexual/Pansexual

Non-Binary/Other (41 Responses)

- Non-Binary/Other respondents had the largest under 16 population at 39% and lowest 18 and over population at 19.5%

- 73.2% of non-binary respondents identified as bisexual/pansexual, 7.3% as homosexual, 14.6% as asexual, and 4.9% as other

(I will post a link to download the google spreadsheet in the comments below if anyone would like to take a look at the data for themselves.)

Fanfiction/Fanart/Reader Statistics

- DreamNotFound creators (fanfiction and/or fanart) were most likely to be bisexual/pansexual females between the ages of 16-17

- 35.3% of DreamNotFound creators were 15 or under, 41.2% were 16-17, and 23.5% were 18 or over

- 65.2% of DreamNotFound fanfiction readers were over the age of 16 (34.9% were 15 and below, 42.8% were 16-17, and 22.4% were 18 and over)

Possible Shortcomings in the Data

Though this survey was conducted for DreamNotFound shippers, not everyone marked the option of Shipping DnF in the last question. Though it might seem as some stray non-DreamNotFound shippers could have potentially taken the survey as well, this is likely not true considering the individuals who chose not to mark the Shipping DnF option all marked either one or both of the other two options. A likely hypothesis could be that some people thought Shipping DnF meant shipping them seriously/for real.*

*A way I’ve heard the difference between shipping them seriously and not seriously be described is shipping Dream and GeorgeNotFound (not serious) vs shipping Clay and George (serious). While all DnF shippers engage in the first, not everyone engages in the second because it is more of an invasion of privacy. It’s sort of like the way some people might ship two characters in a show but not ship the actors that play them. In this case, Dream and GeorgeNotFound function as sort of personas, while Clay and George are the actual individuals behind them.

Discussion on Potential Harm of DreamNotFound

So onto the million-dollar question: Is Dream’s fanservice and encouragement for the DreamNotFound shippers harmful solely because of the fact so many of them are minors? Is it harmful for minors to sexualize creators by writing, reading, and creating fanfiction/fanart (that might or might not be NSFW)?

*Chuckles*

Look, since the age of the internet, fandoms, and fangirls/fanboys, minors have been sexualizing their favorite characters, ships, personas, actors, singers and creators. “Teenage girls,” specifically, have been obsessing over them for a lifetime now. Just take a look at the One Direction and K-Pop fandoms. Is it harmful? I’m sure dozens of people, articles, and researchers have tackled this question in the past.

But, of course, we are talking about Dream’s deliberate encouragement of this ship (because it sure does get him a heck of a ton of fan content, does it not?) Obsession to the point where it affects a part of your life is obviously harmful, but is Dream encouraging this sort of behavior? Besides the passing jokes and fanservice, there is not indication that he’s deliberately encouraging obsessive shipping. Wouldn’t he try a little harder if he were?

And sure, Dream should not take pleasure from a bunch of thirteen year old girls calling him sexy and/or writing smut about him, but even if they were to stop the fanservice now, I HIGHLY doubt these behaviors would stop. It never did stop with One Direction, did it? Or K-Pop Groups. And I bet you right now someone is out there currently reading Septiplier fanfiction and/or engaging in the fandom that’s left for them even after they’ve explicitly told the fans they’re uncomfortable with it.

I don’t think Dream telling fangirls to stop shipping DnF will prevent this obsessive fangirl behavior from those who have it. This issue is much bigger than just Dream and George and the Minecraft community. The only thing it would do is stop the respectful and more mature DreamNotFound shippers, and that isn’t really going to make a difference, is it?

Now, in terms of accusations of grooming, I think this is a vastly different scenario that shouldn’t be brought into the discussion of DreamNotFound shippers. As long as the Dream Team doesn’t actively engage on a personal level with minors, there shouldn’t be a fear of sexual allegations. And again, even if he were to come forth and tell the fans to stop shipping DreamNotFound, it does not make this kind of situation any more unlikely to happen.

Concluding Thoughts

Now, I’m not saying I don’t entirely agree with the whole of the post. I think it brings forth some valid concerns that should be addressed, but I also think not everything mentioned is under Dream’s control. And specifically dealing with encouraging DreamNotFound shippers, in my opinion, I don’t think it’s going to make a difference in the toxicity and obsessive behaviors behind some of their stans. Most toxic and/or obsessive stans/shippers will continue to be toxic and/or obsessive, and the others who aren’t are just going to be discouraged from engaging in a ship and fandom they might really enjoy.

A Note on the Second Survey Conducted on the writing/reading of NSFW content from DreamNotFound shippers

I know some of you know I also conducted a second survey that was a little more personal and contained questions pertaining to the engagement of shippers in NSFW DreamNotFound content.

The reason I didn’t include the results for that survey here are because there have only been 20 responses to the survey as of now, and I don’t believe it’s enough to offer a valid data analysis for it.

However, if you guys would like to participate in it, I will link the form in the comments as well. I apologize for all the links down there, I do not want Tumblr to delete my post from tag pages.

Thank you everyone who participated on the survey! I would also like to thank the dream team writers discord server who helped in spreading the survey and evaluating the second unreleased survey. I hope, at the very least, this data evokes some discussion about this topic.

Check out my Tumblr page for DreamNotFound Fanfiction reviews, my twitch link (I stream MC every Sunday 7PM CT with my best friend), and other crack content! Toodles! :)

[arlert-angel]

i had something i wanted to talk about since discourse earlier took place where a couple big blogs stated that headcanons and drabbles were "clout writing" / "writing for clout".

needed to get these thoughts off my chest, i don't mind if anyone wants to add their opinion as well or talking it over.

warning: it's kinda long

i did not bother interacting or arguing with the people involved– seeing how they reacted to many others– but when reading through their definitions and reasoning i wanted to share some thoughts of my own.

they claimed that headcanons and drabbles are a quick and easy way to get notes and many times discouraged people from writing in that format.

not directly, but they continuously stated that people who write in that format only want notes and they used to write like that and they write so much better now.

that really is indirectly shading everyone who does right that way, you know?

but they failed to mention that there is much more to headcanons and drabbles then gaining notes.

drabbles are quick and fun.

it really does give writers a fast, FUN outlet to get something off their mind and share with others. it's also a good way to gauge if readers likes that small piece of writing, so the writer can later expand on. i enjoy reading all drabbles no matter how short.

GASP

am i thinking about what the readers like too much?

does this make me a clout chaser!??

personally, i don't think so.

i respect my readers. i LOVE my readers. so i wanna know what i'm doing right and wrong, so that as a writer i can improve.

and drabbles are great practice for that.

yo since when is learning and listening from readers about clout and fame?

their mindset is the one perceiving it that way. i guarantee majority of headcanon and drabble writers don't think about the notes they're gonna get.

they are more focused on what type of reaction they're gonna get.

there's a difference!!! maybe their mindset can't comprehend that.

it really sounds like they just don't like what's popular/gains notes.

a classic gaslight gatekeep girlboss moment (derogatory).

another thing mentioned amongst the chaos was that certain tags were flooded with these headcanons and drabbles.

i could understand the annoyance if the tagging was incorrect. (ex: looking at armin fic tag and then only seeing headcanons) that's not a fic, but if it's not incorrectly tagged...

don't complain.

headcanons are also all in good fun!! there are some interesting scenarios (a lot of the time from readers requests or the writer's own imagination).

again, a good way to spitball ideas for a whole fic or sometimes it's something that doesn't need a whole fic, but is still a good concept that the writer wants to put out there.

writing is meant to fun

i cannot stress that enough. they even mentioned it themselves that they write because they like to, not to gain exposure.

what makes you guys believe that anyone else is different?

i feel like through out most of that discourse i saw the people saying that stuff talk a lot about themselves rather than consider anyone else's point of view. so many personal examples and feelings "i see this..." "i used to do this..." "i don't like..."

me me me

when they aren't stopping to consider anyone else's point of view.

the actual current writers that write in that format.

i really do get genuinely confused when people can't take other people's feelings into account.

maybe i'm sensitive or think about others TOO much, but there are those who try very hard on their work (headcanons and drabbles) and produce great content only to be belittled by some big blogs with an odd grudge.

and there's this:

wow.

i'm so happy that you were able to overcome your troubles. many haven't. many have to deal with that "depression and anxiety card" every day.

how dare you belittle mental illness? no really... how? like with your full chest??

but go you for conquering your struggles because apparently yours is the only one that matters.

(that one especially made me mad)

AND EVEN IF PEOPLE ARE WRITING FOR CLOUT...

there is no wrong reason for writing.

writing is beautiful. it's a creative outlet with an infinite amount of possibilities.

you want lots of views? cool.

you want to write privately? great.

at the end of the day, the number one reason why someone writes fanfiction– above all else– is:

because they like whatever fandom they're writing for.

or else they wouldn't write.

simple.

you can not like a format of writing, but you do not take it out on the writers.

i personally mostly write full fics too, but i still respect and cherish many headcanon and drabble writers. (they do be feeding me daily unlike most full fic writers 🥵)

also headcanons and drabbles have been around a looooong time. it's a great way for beginners to start writing and get comfortable posting.

it's disrespectful, insensitive, and discouraging what they continued to post. i don't care that it is their opinion because i have my own as well.

if they had just said i don't like headcanons and drabbles, no one would've cared. people like different formats, it's okay!!!

but they targeted the writer specifically and labeled them as some sort of greedy, uncaring content producing machine. (not their words, just making a point).

it's alright to have different opinions, but it's not okay to be a dick lol.

i blocked most people involved but if anyone ends up showing this to them, whoo! give me attention big bois 🥵 (they're big blogs i think lol)

i just felt like i needed to say more especially for my lovely writers and hope that no readers were overwhelmed.

i also hope their posts didn't make anyone doubt their work.

keep writing. all writing is practice. the more you practice, the more you're able to achieve.

im done, needed to speak my truth.

-moon ☪

[crashdevlin]

I'm thinking of posting some of my fics on here but I'm kinda terrified. What if someone reads it and hates it? What if no one reads it? Do you have any words of wisdom before I jump down the rabbit hole?

So, here's the thing...I have been writing fanfic for 20 years. You read that right, that is not a typo, I have been writing fanfiction since I was 11 years old. I kept it to myself for a few years, but when I was 14, I found a site called mediaminer.org and I decided to post some of my angsty anime fics because I didn't want to bother my friends about whether or not my stories were good. (Writers love that validation stuff).

The first few posts went well. I got hits! I got likes (or whatever was the MM.org equivalent) and I was feeling good, feeling bolder and got some confidence going. And then I got one flame (bad reviews were called flames back then...because they were burning us or something. Idk) it was bad. They questioned my mental capacity (used the 'R' word) and pointed out every spelling error and every continuity issue and hated on my use of random anglicized Japanese words (which was sooooo common to do in anime fics back then idk if it still is because I don't write anime fic anymore). They told me that I should stop writing and delete my account.

So I did. The second part anyway. I was 14! I'd never had my ass handed to me for no reason by someone who was hiding behind a screen name and the thought that I was willingly opening myself up to that kind of abuse just to get someone to tell me "good job" was absurd to me. I deleted my account and pretty much never wrote anime fic again.

But I didn't stop writing. I started writing Buffy and Angel and Doctor Who and Dark Angel. I kept writing specifically for me and for a few of my friends. I didn't post for 12 years because I took to heart what one mean little person hiding behind their keyboard said.

I started posting on Fanfiction.net about 5 years ago (I don't anymore...I smut too much for them) and then I found Archive and finally started posting on tumblr.

Have I had flames? Yes. I've had people tell me that I ruined a story by alluding to Sam and Dean not being 100% straight. I've had people tell me I'm going to Hell for writing wincest. I've had people tell me that they hate the direction I took Happily Ever Eventually ('Jensen wouldn't do that!')

You know what I do? Delete that shit and move on. The sad little people behind their keyboards that wanna make themselves feel better by putting you down, they don't deserve your time or energy. I don't give them that. I delete the hate and move on.

So that's what you do if people hate it. You ignore them and move on.

As for "what if no one reads it?" lemme tell you another tale. The first fic I posted on tumblr is called Some Of This Isn't Bad and it is a really good fic. It was on this hellsite for years (YEARS) before it got its first like. Longer before it got a reblog. It isn't bad. It it's good. But I was a nothing blog and it wasn't til I had a masterlist and followers curious enough to click the links on the list that it was discovered.

Here's my advice- write what you want, not what you think will be popular. Use a keep reading (people are less likely to reblog if they're gonna bog down their followers dashes with long posts), tag any and all triggers in a warning at the top (this is gonna help people not get angry at you all the time) and tag characters and ships and genres and anything you can think of that might catch peoples attention at the bottom.

If it's slow to get attention, don’t let it discourage you. Just keep writing and people will find it eventually.

Write! Post! Be in love with your own writing and people will find it and love it!

[shadowthief78]

Listen.

You do NOT have permission to repost my work(s) anywhere, on any platform, for any reason, at any time, UNLESS I GIVE YOU EXPLICIT WRITTEN PERMISSION IN DMs/PMs (and I most likely won’t).

I shouldn’t have to say this, but what’s written above is default for ANY writer/creator, no matter:

what they write/make

how long they’ve been writing/producing content

how popular they are

how long it’s been since they’ve updated

how close you two are

If you do not have EXPLICIT WRITTEN PERMISSION (and proof of that permission, like a screenshot) you NEVER EVER EVER have permission to repost UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

REBLOGS ARE ALWAYS WELCOME! REUSING A PIECE OF ART MADE SPECIFICALLY FOR YOUR PURPOSE, LIKE A BOOK COVER OR BANNER, IS WELCOME WITH CREDIT! 

BUT IF YOU DO NOT GET PERMISSION, THE ANSWER IS “NO.”

The ONLY way to get permission if to DM/PM the author/creator and ask, “Hey, is it okay if I repost/continue you work(s)?”  If you get ANY response other than “Yeah, sure” or, “Okay, but I want to. . .” then you DO NOT have permission!

If they don’t respond? You don’t have permission!

If they say “well, let me think on it”? You do not have permission!

And guess what? If the creator responds, RESPECT. THIER. WISHES. If they say, “No, here’s why. . .” be grateful they took the time to respond!

If they say, “Yeah, but you have to X, Y and Z,” then agree and be grateful they’re granting you permission.

FANWORK CREATORS OF ALL KINDS OWE YOU NOTHING. 

Get that? Creators have absolutely zero obligation to take requests, or suggestions, or create work at all. Some do, because they want to, but nothing’s stopping them from closing requests.

 NOTHING is stopping them from deleting their accounts and leaving fandom forever except their love of fanworks. Plagirism and unauthorized reposting will discourage all creators and it is absolutely 100% the reposter’s fault.

Let me repeat that for those of you who didn’t see it:

Plagirism and unauthorized reposting will discourage all creators and it is absolutely 100% the reposter’s fault. The victim is NEVER at fault.

It’s consent, people. If you don’t understand it here, in relation to creative content, you do not understand consent in regards to sex. Be grateful the consequences aren’t as severe.

#

Now, some of you will say “Hey, that’s not true! You only need to credit the creator, and not ask for permission! You don’t call every author to ask if you can cite their work when you’re writing a report!”

Okay, the last bit is true - you don’t call authors to ask if you can cite their work.  Why? Because YOU ARE NOT USING THEIR ENTIRE WORK. (If you are, you have serious issues with academic integrity that will cause you problems later.)

Authors of original fiction are paid with money. Fanfiction authors are paid with the love of their fans in various forms: comments, likes, reblogs, kudos, etc that encourage them to make more fanwork.

 If you repost a piece a fanwork creator has made, YOU ARE STEALING THEIR PAYMENT FROM THEM.

Even crediting an author/creator is not enough if they don’t know about this reposting. If they don’t know, how are they to interact withthe people who liked it?

Some creators don’t like certain platforms. Some have bad experiences with certain platforms in the past that made them quit. Some platforms aren’t available to some creators, for whatever reason. That’s totally okay! 

Fanwork creators are allowed to chose whatever platforms they want to share or not share their work. You - a recipient of their work - do not get to take it upon yourself to ‘help’ them. 

(The one exception is comissions, when you pay money for a fanwork creator to make something for you. Even then, if you post it, you must credit!)

#

This concludes my rant/info dump.

#

Also, thank you so much to all the fans who comment, like/kudos/vote on fanworks - all fanworks, of all kinds. This post is not directed at you. Thank you so, so much for making someone’s day brighter.

To the people who have unknowingly reblogged stolen work, this post is also not directed at you. You were decieved by someone who did not respect creators. Please take down/delete the reposted work and support the creator. I have faith in you that you will not make that mistake again, and understand how shocking it must’ve been when you found out. If this is you and you genuinely didn’t know, you are an innocent bystander who go caught up and it’s not your fault. Thank you for supporting your local fanwork creators.

[afriendtokilltime]

Okay, fine. Let’s talk about parasocial relationships.

The term “parasocial” has been making the rounds as a very very smart sounding thing to say. It not only establishes that you know an unusual and complex word, but also that you are too smart to fall for marketing tactics, and that you are much too cool to show enthusiasm for anything!

So, what’s a parasocial relationship? It’s a one-sided relationship with a celebrity or fictional character--the entire relationship takes place in your head. You’re reading this on tumblr, which means you have lots of parasocial relationships. You’re very parasocially popular! Maybe you even have one with me. (Probably not, I stopped posting for a long time, so we probably don’t parasocially know one another at all.)

I first encountered this term being used as an inherently bad thing, something to avoid, as though the term referred to the negative version of itself. What I saw was not people explaining why it can be harmful, but speaking as if we all know it is (the way you’d use “alcoholism”).

I see people carefully watching themselves to make sure they aren’t engaging in a “parasocial relationship,” or referring to a behavior they don’t like as “borderline parasocial relationship behavior.” But, there is no such thing as “relationship behavior” other than closing the psychological distance between yourself and another person. “Parasocial relationship behavior” is doing this, but it’s one-sided. You get closer, and they do not. That’s it. That’s the only thing. Does that mean building a shrine to Kristen Stewart? Does it mean crying with joy at Hbomberguy’s Mermaids/Donkey Kong stream? Does it mean writing a 100k fanfiction about Hermione Granger, Vampire Slayer? Does it mean buying a David Bowie CD? Does it mean begging the show writers to finally make that queerbaity relationship canon? Does it mean killing the president? You decide! 

Becoming psychologically closer to people and characters is not inherently unhealthy, whether they know who you are or not. How you treat them and respond to that closeness, and how they choose to cultivate closeness, can of course be unhealthy...but so can reciprocal relationships.

What’s weird to me is that we generally seem to be aware that there are bad and good (healthy and unhealthy) relationships. I have a good relationship with @randomshoes because we support each other, are interested in each others’ success, spend quality time together, and communicate well. If I was to stalk her or kill a president for her, or if she was to abuse my trust and take all my money while falsely assuring me she loved me, our relationship would be somewhat less healthy. 

So, what’s so bad about parasocial relationships?

They don’t actually care about you and they are taking your money.

If a marketing team/a celebrity uses these relationships to prey on vulnerable people, that might be an abusive relationship...in the other direction. If I manipulate a friend I know out of her money, I���m the bad guy, right? But if I’m famous, and she’s 16, and I knowingly manipulate her out of her money, then she’s the bad guy, because teenage girls are dumb and they should feel bad for ever liking anything, forming identities, feeling attraction, or basically being uncool and childish in any way.

It is definitely a good idea to remember that transactions are a part of how art is usually consumed, and not to express your affection or deep identification with an art/artist by spending lots of money on tee shirts that depict them. However, even this type of interaction can be encouraged in a healthy, positive way.  Patreon seems to really make people mad, but it’s not the worst system for artists who Live in A Society and don’t happen to have any lembas laying around. “I’ll pretend to love you so you can make me a millionaire” seems kinda gross but “I appreciate that your support helps me continue making the art you love” kinda sorta does not.

Some people go too far and commit heinous crimes because they expect their parasocial affections to be reciprocated.

Those crimes would be heinous even in an already reciprocal relationship. (I  already mentioned this, but if I committed terrorism for my very real girlfriend who knows exactly who I am, that would probably make me no better or worse than Hinkley.)

You’re an isolated loser and need real friends.

Okay. Anybody pouring all their energy into one relationship is probably not doing life correctly, regardless of how parasocial that relationship is. But this is a point on which I simply do not agree. People engage in these behaviors regardless of how wide their friend circle is. If not with celebrities, then with fictional characters, or even historical or political figures (think more “little father” than “senator” though what you do with that Bernie Sanders picture in your room is between you and God). Oh speaking of God, relationships with religious figures might arguably have some similarities and speak to the same human tendency, but there is of course the difference that Justin Bieber doesn’t know who TF you are, but God does.

Uh, sorry, you didn’t address my point. Forming parasocial relationships stops you developing real relationships.

I actually think it encourages reciprocal socialization. I didn’t have many friends growing up. When I met two other kids who were obsessed with Harry Potter, we bonded over that, making up our own characters (next generation type of BS...still better than the book 7 epilogue), and this formed the basis of a friendship that lasted basically my entire pubescence. These parasocial relationships are generally part of a broader interest, and interests and hobbies help you meet people, break the ice, and uhm...form real relationships.

It’s not just interests, though. I was hardcore into dinosaurs as a kid. Literally every child likes dinosaurs, but that didn’t help me form any new friendships. The other reason I think parasocial relationships lead to better real relationships is...practice. You are engaging in social behaviors, whether or not you’re any good at them, whether or not you succeed. This is what’s required to learn any new skill, but it’s generally discouraged.

You don’t just learn about how to socialize, you also learn about yourself. You develop a sense of identity and learn what you like and dislike by associating yourself with favorite characters.

Children and teens often imitate their behaviors, and though that can be a bit annoying (why yes I do have the Spanish Inquisition sketch memorized but thanks for repeating it to make sure I got it), it also helps them figure out what kind of people they want to be (maybe you want to be funny, so you over time learn that what made Monty Python so funny was surprise, surprise and fear, and you develop comedic timing). Knowing what kind of person you want to be is important.

Right, but it’s selfish. You keep calling it “one sided” which it literally is. There’s no checks on your behavior.

Right. I think that’s good, though? I think it’s good for people to sometimes do selfish things. I think it’s good to cultivate parasocial relationships because they are a way to self-soothe, and get your own needs met, without burdening others. We are social creatures, and we absolutely need relationships, but nobody owes you a relationship. Nobody owes you affection or love. Having a way to cultivate that for yourself is actually incredibly valuable.

It’s worth commenting here that I think my strongest parasocial relationships are probably with characters I’ve made up myself. They are “a part of me” in that they are always there in my life, but unlike some writers, I do not base characters on myself or see them as reflecting specific parts of me. I relate to them in the same way I relate to Harry Potter, except that I was the one who made them up initially, and books I write about them can be published and I can make money off them. (On some theoretical plane of existence.) It’s pretty clear that I am the one doing all the work on both sides of this particular parasocial relationship, but it doesn’t feel super different to me than the fact I very intensely relate to certain characters not made up by me. I don’t conceive myself dating one of them, like I don’t have a Dorothy L. Sayers thing going on, but I don’t really think it would be wrong if I did.

What do you mean not being a burden on others? What about toxic fans putting pressure on creators?

Yeah...that’ll be in the “unhealthy relationship” category. But, okay, I guess where I am ending up here is I do think it’s good to recognize parasocial relationships exist and talk about them, because it reminds you that even if a relationship is not reciprocal, you do have responsibilities. If the other person is real, that means they are only human, and even if you have no choice but to stan, you should give them some breathing space. The Shinji Ikari ContraPoints in my head can be my super close friend, but if I expect the real Natalie Wynn to give me any more energy than she already does to her entire audience by making the awesome videos I enjoy so much, I’d be really rude, demanding, and honestly not worthy of her friendship if it was “real.”

Parasocial relationships are relationships which means, just like with reciprocal ones, you have to not be a dick. You have to respect the other person and recognize they are a human being separate from you. Even with characters, Harry Potter can’t be hurt by anything weird and demanding you do, but Rowling could, and so could other HP fans, so respect is still important. If it’s not already clear, I strongly disagree with people who suggest fanfiction is disrespectful, so.

If you understand that your relationship is abstracted, and that you do not deserve any kind of reward for all the energy and love that you pour into it...then enjoy your parasocial relationship, because it is absolutely normative, human, and can bring great joy and meaning into your life. In fact, almost all of what I just said applies to reciprocal relationships, too.

[comicteaparty]

February 22nd-February 28th, 2020 Creator Babble Archive

The archive for the Creator Babble chat that occurred from February 22nd, 2020 to February 28th, 2020.  The chat focused on the following question:

How do you deal with people shipping non-canon ships for your story?

Deo101 [Millennium]

To be completely honest, I've only had one person ever ship a non canon/endgame thing. I kinda just ignored it. I think I would in general just ignore it, no matter how many people did ship a non canon thing. But it does make me uncomfortable

carcarchu

I once had a professor tell me "once you release your story to the world it no longer belongs to you" and i think he was right. once your story is shared with others it can no longer be said to be solely your creation anymore. you can't stop other people from shipping non-canon ships and even if you want to discourage it it's kind of beyond your hands at that point. other people's interpretations of your work is something you have to accept as a creator even if you find it unsavoury

Tuyetnhi

this is always in the back of my mind so uh, I let folks be and try not to search up fandom pics of my comic. at the US at least, I remember reading that creators who are currently writing/creating a story and it's not up to completion, anything like viewing fanart or reading fanfiction of alternative interpretations is not advised. So you have to stow it away till the story is thoroughly done, then you can just check out what fans are doing rip. I think it's aimed towards creators who have like NDA thing they're working on or if they're working with a publisher. still, I thought that's an important thing to keep in mind.

though I do get folks send me like single character fanart and really doesn't interfer with the story anyway so I accept those lmao

carcarchu

@Tuyetnhi that's for creators to not get sued for having their story turn out similar to people's fanfics

Tuyetnhi

aahhh :0

still er lmao. if the possibility is there, I rather not uh.... seek it lmao

especially like shipping fanfiction of my characters when the story isn't over yet lmao

eli [a winged tale]

I totally agree carcarchu. Readers can interpret character interactions through their own lenses and sometimes what we as creators intend in the story may be seen as a potential ship to varying degrees. I actually just had a conversation about this within my beta circle where a friend who hasn’t seen the whole script shipped a non canon pair and it was interesting! I personally don’t feel disturbed by it unless the pair had a large age difference/can potentially be unhealthy etc. There is a threshold I won’t cross but that tends to be quite high. Otherwise I just think it’s interesting and continue the actual story

Eilidh (Lady Changeling)

I haven't come across this with mine yet, but given that my story is deliberately non-romantic and the whole cast is aroace, I wouldn't be comfortable with anyone shipping any characters romantically. But that's very specific to my comic.

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

To me, there are four levels of "non-canon" with regards to shipping. 1. You were supposed to ship this and get disappointed, so good job. The obvious example is the Mizuki-Cahe-Pejiba love triangle. Mizuki x Pejiba doesn't work out in the end, but it's not like it was a non-viable ship - if Mizuki x Pejiba wasn't compelling at all, it wouldn't have been much of a love triangle, now would it? 2. Didn't think of it myself, but I get the dynamic you're going for. One surprisingly common ship in the shipping contest poll was Taci x Coruby, which isn't a ship I was deliberately teasing... but, like, I get it? Coruby is outgoing, loyal, and makes lots of dad jokes. Taci is prickly, self-absorbed, backstabbing, and was (is? probably is) literally afraid of dad jokes. I can definitely see why people would want to see more of that dynamic. 3. ...Why? An example of this is Zaxaty x Mr. Enetoro, which showed up in the poll. Even ignoring the bad age gap (22 vs 50 which is like... all right... she's half your age but ok...) and the sexuality incompatibility (Zaxaty's only into women, Enetoro's not into anyone)... these two have literally never spoken to each other either on or off screen. Literally what drew you to this pairing??? Like I'd almost believe it was a mis-click on the poll over anyone actually thinking these two work together. 4. Bad, bad, very very bad. AKA "they're related", "one's underage", and/or "i know exactly why you want this ship, and I don't like it". For a while during the shipping poll's running, the third place ship was Mizuki x Nothing. First off, the age gap there is pretty gross, but I guess I can't expect readers to know that (Nothing is an immortal demon, but relative to other demons it's a kid so... someone's underage there). And second... I know exactly why people were shipping Mizuki with the giant demon that uses tendrils to mind control people, and I do not like that dynamic.

As for what I do about the ships in #3 or #4... so far, nothing, because they've been contained to the poll. If someone drew actual art of them, though, I'd probably tell them to stop, and I for sure wouldn't post the art on my fan-art page.

kayotics

I don’t have a very present fandom, at least in the sense that there’s any amount of shipping that’s unexpected. Or maybe it’s tucked away? I think the people who read my comic aren’t ones who make their own content. Either way, I’m pretty ok with shipping non-canon ships. I’d encourage it, really. I love the idea of people having fun with my characters in a way I didn’t expect. As for ships that are taboo... as long as they’re not hurting real people, I just don’t want to see it really or be made to be part of it. It would make me uncomfortable.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, how pushy/not pushy they are with Weird Ships is a big factor for me as well.

As long as they keep it to themselves, they can ship all the ships they want, no matter how icky. I'd prefer to not know if it's really icky.

So far there is only one Potentially Viable ship in my comic, though. And that Viable ship is very, very important to me. So if anyone ships one of the involved characters with someone else, I would seriously hope it's not because I've failed to develop the Viable Ship in a compelling manner. People are free to ship whoever, but don't let that be because of my own failure as a storyteller?

I've actually had anti-shippers against that Viable ship though lol, which may be relevant to the topic. What do you do when you get vocal anti-shippers of canon ships

I do think it is related, like another variation of "people sticking to their own thing with regards to ships."

kayotics

As a shipper: any crack ships I come up with is usually just because I like to explore the dynamic. Some people are more extreme about hating ships but... idk it’s probably just because they don’t like one of the characters for some reason

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Believable crackships can be a lot of fun to observe, as a non-shipper. Like I look at this amazingly well-written crackship and I'm like, wow, this is sorcery

sagaholmgaard

I haven't had it happen yet (my comic is less than a year old and doesn't have a lot of followers haha) But I'm really open about shipping! Much like @kayotics I would probably encourage it. I'm personally aroace and in my original writing I like to explore non-romantic relationships, but I know the appeal of shipping and tbh i ship my own ocs that aren't canon to the story/don't get explored in the comic because they're background characters for whatever reason. It would be genuinely fun to see if other people started exploring those ships on their own! Or things I haven't thought about! If something made me really uncomfortable, I would likely ignore it. If someone tried to get their non-canon ship to become canon that would be worse, no matter if i personally liked the ship or not, lol.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, people need to respect boundaries, always

kayotics

Yeah, definitely. It wouldn’t make me uncomfortable unless someone was trying to break into my personal boundaries

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

It doesn’t happen so much currently with Phantomarine, because I just don’t have enough shippable characters yet (related, underage, or otherwise just kinda squicky). I wonder what will happen when I introduce more. But as long as people are interacting with my characters in a fun healthy way, but still respect my choices in the end, they can ship away in any (legal) direction. It’s honestly not a ship-heavy story. It’s far more about friendship and healing and rebuilding strength/trust after trauma - if any shipping were to happen, it would probably be in a sequel or continuation when everyone is... feeling a lot better

DanitheCarutor

Depends on the characters. 90% of the time I don't care, I may even make jokes. There's nothing wrong with people wanting to see my hideous characters getting together, although there are two things that would make me a little salty. 1. If there is a scene going on that I want readers to take seriously. Such as if there is a part in the story where someone is overwhelmed and having a mental break down, then another character comes over to help calm them down. It would be kinda rude to get a bunch of comments screaming "KISS THEM!", "KISS NOW!" Although that could just be me being a stick in the mud. 2. Anything involving Julian. They are currently not mentally stable enough to properly consent to any romantic endeavors, so when people try to ship other characters with them it's a little... eeeeh! Kinda non-con, and it feels a little gross. I try not to get on anyones ass about these, realizing no one means any harm, they may not even be full aware of the situation. (Especially with Julian since they're still functional enough to talk to people sometimes and hold down a job.) Normally I leave the comments be, they just kinda irk me sometimes.

em.rowene

Honestly, I think I'd be flattered to see more fan interaction with Fractured Magic. Even if it's a ship I don't really get, it would just be nice to know people are engaged with the story and like my characters enough to interact with them beyond just reading (though this answer's definitely coming from a place of having been publishing it only half a year and not having a huge readerbase yet) Someone making fanfic with my characters is actually a major goal of my writing, but I agree with the above people who said reading it before the story's done probably isn't a good idea. I don't think there's much legal risk to it (I actually wrote a major paper on this in law school) - there's only been one case even remotely analogous in the US. Someone wrote a Rocky fan script and sent it to the writers, and then the next Rocky movie had a similar plot and the person sued. The judge said if you make a derivative work (like fanfic), you can't sue the creators of the original copyright for infringement. But I do think it would be bad form bc it is really easy to be influenced by stuff like fanfiction of your own story, even if you don't mean to be

Mei

Thankfully I haven't had to deal with people shipping my characters from MHIAC with anybody else. But that's mostly because I've only actually introduced the two main characters, who are husbands, and one friend. I think it'd be super interesting to see how people view the character relationships once I introduce more of the cast. I'd be really curious too! I mean, I don't want people to try and break up the canon couple that's for sure... but I guess all the side characters are fair game for shipping if people choose to. I'd honestly be super flattered if people shipped any of my characters, it would feel like I'm doing something right. As long as there's no NSFW stuff because boy that'd make me uncomfortable.

chalcara

Shipping‘s fan stuff and just for fan, as long as you do it in your own space, go hog-wild. Have fun! Not gonna watch/read/view it, but have fun! People taking their headcanons as fact for the main-comic might end up a problem, but I‘ll cross that bridge when I come to it.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

So far, I've only had people ship the canon main couple, so I haven't had problems yet. But honestly, I don't care who the readers ship for the most part, unless it's gross and/or illegal. For example, if they are related or underage... Other than that, I don't mind. It's all in good fun

Deo101 [Millennium]

I actually wanna add on to my comment: non canon ships only make me uncomfortable if they go against the Characters sexuality, or if it's an abusive ship or illegal. If it's not one of those then it doesn't bother me! My Characters are generally friends so I totally get someone wanting to ship two who won't be endgame

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I dunno. I just can't be bothered by stuff like that for multiple reasons. 1) Most of my characters don't talk about their sexuality in the comic. 2) Because of setting and time period, everyone expects everyone to be straight (which of course isn't true). 3) And I don't think readers typically mean anything bad by shipping people with each other that won't be together (again, unless it's gross or illegal).

One of my characters, for example, is aroace, but he doesn't even know that's a thing, because sexuality and mental health is not understood in this time period. So of course he hasn't mentioned that he's aroace at all. He is married to a woman, because of societal expectations, so likely he will be shipped with her. But their relationship is horrible, and it was definitely a marriage of convenience. So if readers decide to ship him with other people, I can't fault them, because they simply do not know.

Him being aroace is only in the subtext and in my heart.

Deo101 [Millennium]

I make my Characters sexualities pretty clear, so I consider it akin to homophobia to want to see my gay man with a lesbian

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

In your case, it's definitely a bit different, because you have made it obvious.

Capitania do Azar

Too bad @Deo101 [Millennium] i am preparing problematic ships right now (no I'm not)

I don't care about what people would ship, and I would be curious as to why people think this or that pair could work it's a very interesting way to see how people are interpreting the story and the characters

Deo101 [Millennium]

LMAO

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I'm definitely scared of people shipping incestual relations in my comic, because there is a situation where characters are related, but it isn't known to the audience (yet)

And I really don't want that mistake to be made

Deo101 [Millennium]

Lia/luke shippers before the last star wars movie came out...

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Yep

I'm like... soooo nervous right now

I can just feel the bad ships encroaching

Capitania do Azar

If people don't know can you blame them?

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah I think it's only bad if the ships persist after it's revealed

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I can't blame them, but I just don't want to think about it

sagaholmgaard

ack, good luck cronaj! I wanted to add that when it comes to shipping and canon sexualities i'm the same boat as you cronaj. I have my own idea that my main characters are pan and ace respectively, but it doesn't come up in the comic and they don't have the lingo for it during this time period, so I can't blame readers for making up their own headcanons and ships

I have comic ideas that are a lot more centered around sexuality and getting into a relationship. If i ever make them happen I'm sure I would mind a lot more it people's ships went against the characters' canon sexualities

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Lol, haha, I also have a pan character whose sexuality isn't revealed in comic XD

Like... A little bit of subtext, but not explicitly said

FeatheryJustice

I actually don't mind people shipping things in my comic that is non canon, because it just proves people read my comics. I myself love crack pairings and dumb things, so I treat their ships like crack pairings. I think an example in Teasday was someone joking about shipping Vander with Spyder, two characters who never met and I was like "Haha that's funny." Because it just proves they read my comic to even know the names at least.

Capitania do Azar

They never met but... If they did

FeatherNotes(Krispy)

I've had more readers want to date the characters themselves then ship them with another character, so it's hard to have a solid thought on how I'd feel with ships so far That being said however, i don't really mind ppl shipping as long as it's respectful to me and the readers boundaries. There's been people honestly wanting more interactions between characters that aren't shippable in my eyes, so i most likely would advert them if i saw ships i didn't agree with. That said, go wild!

Kat - The Yuri Canon

I get a lot of non-canon shipping, mostly because there are so many possibilities. Mostly I allow it, as long as they don't get too extreme or overly sexualize my characters. But I did have to stop some when they kept insisting my Ace go out with one of my characters. I finally had to say it just wasn't happening.

sssfrs (JOE IS DEAD)

Its never happened to me, but if it did that would be fine I guess. I’m not about to change plans in how I write the story to spontaneously put characters together unless there was good chemistry maybe

I would be happy overall that people were engaging with my characters on that level

Cap’n Lee (Flowerlark Studios)

I have only had one single ship comment in the 14 years I’ve been doing webcomics, and it was over a decade ago. But it was also an intensely uncomfortable one, where a reader was trying to ship my 14yo gay character with an adult female villain. Needless to say I put the brakes on that right away, and have never had a ship comment since.

But secretly I wish readers did occasionally ship my adult characters, because so long as they don’t get toxic, I think non canon shipping can be fun. If the reader doesn’t demand their ship be made canon or fight with people shipping a different pairing, I’d be all for it.

Ash🦀

Honestly I would love to see ships. I've never really had an audience for Foxes with Machine Guns, so seeing people care that much? I think I'd just be grateful. TBH I cried when I got a comment so someone having a whole ship? Of My OCs?? I'd probably end up sobbing like an idiot. They're all adults, ship away, you have my blessing.

Nutty (Court of Roses)

I personally love shipping, and in regards to my comic, I'm excited, but also nervous. I have a main ship that I push myself that so far a lot of readers have been really receptive to (Merlow/Nocturne <3). I also have a few more ships coming up... but in the meantime, I like to see theories, but I worry that either a) the ships I end up with will make folks unhappy, or b) folks will ship things that ignore a character's established orientation. Like, it's fairly clear Diana is a lesbian, but I already had a casual suggestion from a rl reader of her and Merlow getting together and I'm like. N no. No please. Please, just let them be besties, they will be best friends I promise but Merlow is not a lady.(edited)

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

See, I don't care about people having ~gross~ ships. I might not want to hear about it -- and if you expect it to become canon, you're probably out of luck -- but if a reader enjoys imagining or exploring it on their own time? I'm not gonna police them over that.

Just because a thing is illegal to do IRL, that doesn't mean it's illegal to imagine it or write about it. (If it was, I'd be in a whole lot of trouble...)

...not that it's really come up, since with my comics it seems like most people are happy to go with the canon mostly-healthy ships anyway, but.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Same with shipping against orientation -- if some reader wants to imagine an AU where the character realizes they've been bi the whole time after all, why not? The canon representation you wrote is still there. It's not gonna be compromised or erased unless you write that happening.

(And if the reader's imagination is more like "everyone is actually straight and some people, including these characters, just get temporarily confused"...I mean, at that point they have waaaay bigger problems than which webcomic characters they like to imagine kissing.)

kayotics

I think I gotta agree with Erin here. I’m not gonna police what people want to imagine. It’s not my business. They can do what they like in their free time.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I assume most of "I don't want X" folks mean "I don't want to see X." I can't even imagine policing what people do in their own time! I mean, what are you gonna do, be like the NYC library parking sign?

(That sign is real and I have seen it)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

"I don't want to see X" is definitely true for me

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Yeah, any time someone's clear that they mean "I don't want to see X" or "I don't want readers telling me about X", that's a different story!

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

And if said illegal/gross ships are perpetuated on the internet, I'll probably try to step in

ESPECIALLY WITH UNDERAGE CHARACTERS

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...see, that's getting back into "policing what random people do with their free time" territory.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I WILL FIGHT YOU

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

um, there's a difference between things you do on your free time, and things you post where children can see

it's an important distinction

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I specifically have one character who is a small child who I do not want to see in ANY romantic situations

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I mean, we don't have psychic filters on "check this box to confirm that you are over 18" filters, so in theory "children can see" just about anywhere...

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

unless, of course, the character is aged up significantly

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And cute ships with young characters having crushes on each other have been around since forever.

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

oh young characters having crushes on each other is one thing

but there are far worse things on the internet

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Yes

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Right, but we're talking about "shipping" as a general thing, which includes the cute crushes.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I don't want any weird pedo crap

keep that aaaaawaaaaay from my characters thank you

Deo101 [Millennium]

on the subject of what people do in their free time, it's pretty obvious that I can't control what people are doing but that doesnt mean I support any free time activities.

I

I'm not gonna say I'm okay with adults shipping adults and children even if they do it where no one can see

like they CAN and I can't stop them but I wont say i'm okay with it just because I can't control it

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Sure, but, we're not talking about any "free time activities" -- we're talking about people using their imaginations. That doesn't cause me any harm. And if nobody ever sees it? Geez, plenty of people have waaaay darker thoughts than that in the privacy of their own heads.

Deo101 [Millennium]

I think it causes harm to how they interact with the world, though. and just because it could be worse doesnt mean it's okay

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

If they are interacting with the world in a specific harmful way, that would be a thing we can discuss on its own merits!

FeatheryJustice

I feel like if you police people from not doing something, they want to do it more.

So by not drawing attention to it, it might be a better move? For Ships, if someone ships something you don't like, don't draw attention to it kinda thing?

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Also true!

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think "I won't say I'm okay with it" and "I will actively make an effort to police it" are two very different things?

You can definitely have this... area where the distinction isn't clear

FeatheryJustice

For example, if someone is like "Don't draw this character as X because I don't like it" People might do it because you said something?

People are weird, I wish they will listen to author wises but not everyone will.

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I mean, yeah, but "I won't make an effort to police it because that would be physically impractical" is also different from "I won't make an effort to police it because that's not my job."

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Well, if they do that, then they are an asshole(edited)

because they aren't respecting the creator's barriers

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

@FeatheryJustice Not spreading ideas you don't like in the first place is a smart move, yeah. Put your energy into promoting and spreading the things that make you happy.

FeatheryJustice

Yeah! Promoting things that make you happy might be better. Like "I like the fact you guys enjoy drawing my characters" Something like that that's more positive

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Sure, they can do it, but if you do something like that, which is also illegal in most countries, then you are disrespecting the creator, the character(s), and the law

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Wait, what are people doing that's illegal?

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past) Today at 11:19 PM And if said illegal/gross ships are perpetuated on the internet, I'll probably try to step in ESPECIALLY WITH UNDERAGE CHARACTERS

FeatheryJustice

Oh yeah that's something different. That's just illegal.

RebelVampire

I'm just admin stepping in here to remind people to remain respectful. Cause this is the sort of conversation that can quickly go out of hand.

FeatheryJustice

Got it Rebel

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Doing bad things is illegal. Writing about bad things happening isn't illegal. (Again: I have written fiction about soooo many illegal-to-actually-do things.)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I think there is a difference between writing about a terrible thing happening and putting it in a negative light and shipping pedophilia(edited)

Deo101 [Millennium]

I think writing about underage characters with the intent for sexual pleasure counts as CP

FeatheryJustice

I mean drawing and writing about murder is okay, actual going out and murdering someone is not okay. But I think for this context we are looking at something that is a bit more worrying.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

But I wouldn't want to read a story where murdering for pleasure is glorifed either

FeatheryJustice

Yeah, that's why I think context matters.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

and I frankly think media like that shouldn't be shared with the world

Like, i guess write it and stash it away on your computer somewhere

but don't show it to people

Tuyetnhi

i can hear the police sirens blaring from the sound of someone writing cp lmao

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Lol

FeatheryJustice

Back to talking about shipping (Sorry I got this conversation derailed here), I think there will be people who will never announce their ships as well.

Or have it so open ended no one knows what's what.

And maybe we can brainstorm good ways to tell people we would like them to not ship certain things?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Probably don't say anything unless it does become a visible problem

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

...I get that nobody wants to go into this too closely, and I sure don't either, but I also think someone should say -- legally speaking, a work is only CP if a child is harmed in its creation. If there's a living, human victim. Conflating that with other things is not beneficial to anyone, and can itself be hurtful to survivors.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Honestly, I don't feel the need to warn people not to write inappropriate ships about my underage characters, because it should be common sense not to do such a thing

I really won't say anything about it unless someone actually posts it on the internet

Tuyetnhi

rip I hate to burst it but under us law, even drawn cp is considered illegal

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

^

I think it depends on the country

but in some countries, yes, it is considered CP

RebelVampire

But see that brings in the complecation of international law. If an artist is in the US but the fanartist is in say Japan where they have a much different relationship, whose laws apply?

Tuyetnhi

it depends on the site host i think?

like if it's a US based site

and there's CP there, it's under US law correct?

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

the fanartist can't be be punished if they live in a country like Japan where that's legal, but I would still try to contact them and ask that they take it down(edited)

FeatheryJustice

(I wasn't talking about CP in my post I was just like if you don't want these two characters to be shipped together what can you say? Didn't mean to spiral off like that sorry)

RebelVampire

But it might only apply to US citizens. For example, some sites specifically alter themselves so part of their site follows European GDPR laws but tell the americans they suck

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

But that is also the difference between law and site terms

the person might get banned from the site but not sued

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I can't speak for every country, but it's genuinely not illegal in the US -- and, yeah, I don't know why a general discussion about shipping had to go this far either! You don't need to go right to the most disturbing possible interpretation when thinking about hypothetical shippers...

RebelVampire

Yeah. All my point is is blanket saying its illegal just cause it is in the US is inaccurate.

Deo101 [Millennium]

also morals =/= law, and a site is allowed to say no to that even if it is legal

they are not owed a platform

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

Individual site TOS can be stricter than national laws, yeah.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

@Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn) I think the reason people discuss the worst case scenarios is because those scenarios are precisely what they have issues with, as opposed to other kinds of non-canon ships

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

@Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn) In my case, I mentioned it because that's where I draw the line with shipping. Other stuff, no matter how much I disagree with it, I don't really care enough to do anything about it

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

I get that people have those lines in their heads, but when you don't describe the distinction, when you talk about "shipping" as if "everyone should understand that I exclusively means graphic photorealistic sexual content"...that's a big leap to make!

Tuyetnhi

@Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn) agreed but er.... I still do believe that the US has a law about drawn CP being illegal. it's something that I found out when I had to help a friend out from a situation (I won't go to details rip)

but yeah it's a big assumption lmao

I know shippers in good faith won't try to push that onto others

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And it seems unfairly harsh on any shipper with literally any other interests or activities.

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Honestly, even if someone only commented about a ship with an adult character with a child character, I would still ask them kindly to delete their comment, or delete it myself

Tuyetnhi

^ye

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It doesn't have to be a visual representation for me

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

And when you're talking about your own website, I think setting rules like that is completely reasonable.

Deo101 [Millennium]

again, I wont say im okay with it even if it's only in someones head. Just cause theyre not sharing it doesnt mean I'm okay with it

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

If I have the power to remove their comment or report them, I would

but if I don't, I will ask them to refrain from such comments

That's all the power I have

And as @Deo101 [Millennium] said, I also don't have to agree with people's filthy thoughts

Deo101 [Millennium]

I understand they can think them and i cant do anything about it but i wont offer support for it i dont think

RebelVampire

As a reader, I want to second that it's important to distinguish what you mean when you say you don't tolerate specific ships. Obviously, no one think pedophilia is okay and that would be a fine ship to not tolerate. However, if all you say is you don't tolerate specific ships, readers will also jump to the worst conclusion possible, which in this context is you don't tolerate anything that is non-canon (vs. what creators think is the worst possible conclusion when they hear non-canon).

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

see, this sort of thing is exactly why i have four tiers of "non-canon"

Deo101 [Millennium]

please elaborate!

Tuyetnhi

4 tiers? :0

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Oh yes, definitely

snuffysam (Super Galaxy Knights)

i mean it's in my post a few days back To me, there are four levels of "non-canon" with regards to shipping. 1. You were supposed to ship this and get disappointed, so good job. 2. Didn't think of it myself, but I get the dynamic you're going for. 3. ...Why? 4. Bad, bad, very very bad.

with more detail explaining specific ships that ended up in my poll that fit into each category(edited)

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Even if stuff is noncanon, or goes against a character's canon sexuality, I don't really care, because fan AUs exist

and it's pretty hard to offend me

mostly the pedophilia thing is the only thing I'm passionately against

So yeah, #4 is the only place where my hair stands on end

Deo101 [Millennium]

oh sorry I did read that but I didnt realize thats what you meant by the tiers ^^;

Tuyetnhi

its helpful!

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

It is indeed

I read it before, and I still find it useful

I'm sure #1 and #2 is where most of the WotP shippers will reside

And there will definitely be a few #3s

FeatheryJustice

That's very useful, the tiers XD

Erin Ptah (BICP | Leif & Thorn)

@RebelVampire absurdly late, I know, I just wanted to second that "obviously, no one thinks pedophilia is okay" is really important to keep in mind. No matter what anyone says about any kind of shipping -- people should be able to feel comfortable that nobody's gearing up to call that into question. We're all on the same side with that one.

spacerocketbunny

There's a few characters I'm a little protective over regarding their sexuality, but most of the characters are bi/pan so it's pretty free game! I'm so here for random crack ships honestly

Capitania do Azar

Get ready

AntiBunny

Personally I enjoy seeing what random ideas fans come up with. It's all part of being a creator.

meek

lmao i'll try to get one comment in before the discussion closes As a creator, a lot of my feelings about shipping is related to how I am as a reader/audience member for media? Character dynamics and relationships are one of my favorite things + what'll usually hook me for a series, and definitely exploring relationships that either didn't receive any attention or were completely non-existent in the original material is one of my favorite things to do! And that'll inspire me to create or make certain choices with my original characters based on that "Well, what if [this] happened in that story?" So with that, I don't find myself get super-attached to canon/endgame ships and I'll just do my own thing, regardless. I always respect the original intent when it comes to character's sexuality or preference (unless it's a case of 'everyone's straight' lol), but I'm a rabid multishipper in fandom anyways so I'll carry that energy over to my own works LOL And let it be free for all, even if I have an 'end' goal in mind. After all, I'm the biggest multishipper for my own characters too!

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

>I always respect the original intent when it comes to character's sexuality or preference (unless it's a case of 'everyone's straight' lol) @meek Just for the sake of argument, why do you respect the characters' sexualities unless everyone is straight? Personally, I don't mind sexuality swapping in fan ships and such, but I do wonder why there is this specific stipulation for you.

meek

Also input as a reader: sometimes it's good to be completely upfront about where your boundaries are as a creator! And also being explicit about certain character details or relationships can help, because a lot of times readers don't.. really know.. I can't tell you the number of times I've started reading a comic where the ages of the characters are very ambiguous with: - specific ages are never said - the art style is stylized in a way that unless they're explicitly a child or an elderly person, everyone looks like they're the same age - the context clues on their age is limited to.. they worked a minimum wage job - in-story they are treated with the same level of respect and authority status as everyone else around them - characters that are older than them that act the same age and that's led me several times to thinking a character was at least 18-23+ and actually they were supposed to be 14.....

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I assume it's for the same vein of reason why we don't have a Straight Pride Day. This is getting into the weeds though, so I'm very hesitant to approach further

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Sure

meek

The short answer is that there's no harm in adding more gay or trans representation to a work of fiction

but erasing canon gay or trans representation to make it cis or straight is bad and homo/transphobic

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with respecting characters's sexualities or messing around with possibilities, but it just seems rather... odd

meek

also just straight up it's complete white-washed fiction that LGBT or POC did not exist in history until [convenient time here] so acting like you're being "historically accurate" by exempting them is just.. bad

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Well, depending on location, that would be incorrect

But again, I'm not particularly upset to see "straight" characters depicted as gay(edited)

meek

well i'm a queer nb person so i've encountered innumerable works of fiction where everyone is straight, cis, and white so i'd much rather diversify that then perpetuate it

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

You're not wrong about there being a numerous amount of straight, cis, and yes, white characters in media

But I feel like it's destructive to society as a whole to suddenly decide to be more courteous toward LGBTQ+ groups than toward straight people

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

This is getting too political for me and I feel it could get out of control quickly

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Maybe it is political

You don't have to participate

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It also feels off topic

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

But I think it's important to politely discuss it

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Maybe not in this channel specifically

meek

i'm going to be honest, i feel incredibly uncomfortable to be asked to continue this conversation

if you want to talk more, then write a DM but this has nothing to do with the main part of my comment or the topic for this channel

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

If you feel uncomfortable, then I respect your decision not to continue this discussion

I've said my piece

Spring-heeled Jack

Jumping in before this closes: I'm not there yet but I'm in the camp of "whatever floats your boat!" If someone ships my characters I think I'll be flattered that they are that invested in them to have those feelings. But also I'm super new to this and the only comment so far is my friend jokingly saying she ships herself with one character.

Ash🦀

I'm in the same boat as Spring-heeled Jack- the idea that people would even be invested enough would be flattering, yes. It would be really cool, but I doubt it will happen since there's a limited cast and it's not a romance. I do have personal ships, but since romance isn't a factor, shippers... Just won't be canon, kinda no matter what they ship. Maybe if my story was more romance-centered I'd care more, but as it is... Do what you want, it's not going to hurt my feelings if you think Ren and the Oni would be a power couple or whatever.

kayotics

I’m just gonna pop in here and say this: shippers making queer content of (presumably) straight characters is a large part of how I figured out I was queer, because for the most part (especially when I was younger) that doesn’t exist in the public eye.

Spring-heeled Jack

My comic isn't romance based, it's horror but I feel that really good horror is best built off characters you can connect to. So I have some families. I have some married couples. The older two "children" (they are in their 20s) are dating. I made one of my main non-binary and their partner is ace. Another main is a transman. In my heart my characters are all pan anyway so I like just putting them with who I think works best lol

I also low key ship one of my married characters with another character that is coming in later. I do enjoy shipping so I might be biased lol

Deo101 [Millennium]

my comic is pretty romance based, it's not a romance but there are pretty strong romance threads in it, and my characters arent all pan so I feel differently, so I do see why you would feel differently than me on this subject!

Spring-heeled Jack

I can also respect a creator having an idea for a character and not feeling comfy with people going different directions with it.

Ash🦀

Oh definitely- How individuals interact and feel for their characters varies from person to person.

Kabocha

I don't mind people making changes for shipping purposes or shipping non canon stuff -- so long as they don't expect me to change my writing to suit them. And like Snuffysam, I kind of have similar tiers for ships, too. I don't want to (and can't, really) control what other people do, but I'd prefer that if a reader knows it's going to make me upset or something I've expressed wishes against, that they not share it with me. Besides, if what I'm writing doesn't meet their needs, I'd rather see shippers search out, celebrate, and elevate work that better matches the values they idealize in pairings. (and trust me, romance is FULL of it if you look. :D)

Spring-heeled Jack

I thought about my only canonically het character that I have (I only rp him now, I have a comic planned for him down the line) and even with him all I can think is "if someone wants him to kiss a boy, I super don't care."

Ash🦀

Wait, hold on, have people actually asked to change the story based on who they think should get together? Is that a thing people do? (Forgive my ignorance, I’m not really a fandom person? I’m p shy and keep to myself)

FeatheryJustice

I seen it happen. Which in itself is pretty rude soemtimes because people get angry if their ships aren't canon kinda thing

Ash🦀

Oh my. Thank you for the warning then, I’ll keep it in mind. That’s very rude! Would probably fill me with spite, to be honest. The “well now I’m not doing it” haha. I’m... disappointed but not surprised this happens. Still, it won’t change my mind. XD

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I have run into more than one person who hyperfixates on a ship (in any media, not just comics) that's... honestly, truly, never going to happen? Like, a main character crossed with a background character who had no lines and showed up in a single scene. That sort of thing. Then they implode/explode when it doesn't become canon by the end. If it happened for my own work, I don't know what I'd say. Apart from telling people not to put all their eggs in one basket, I guess I fear that kind of manic fanaticism.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Wasn't that the reason behind that infamous blackmail incident, the Voltron one

or am I mixing it up with a different fandom?

Spring-heeled Jack

Looking at fandoms in general, there are people that get over invested and become possessive. It's a shame.

Deo101 [Millennium]

the fact that it could be more than one fandom says a lot, i think :P

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

yeeeeeah ugh

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

If it's not, I'd still believe it (edited)

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Also the needle in the cookie one (though this was given to a fan artist who drew a ship they didn't like, not the actual author)

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Hoooooooly hell, I feel like I remember that, but not specifically what it was for. NIGHTMARE SCENARIO.

Deo101 [Millennium]

thought that was because they didnt draw a character fat?

again, the fact it could be multiple things

hugely concerning

Spring-heeled Jack

Just, please, never take consumables (food, drink, ect) from strangers.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, I think the "you didn't draw her fat enough" was a different one

Deo101 [Millennium]

:l

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Scary world we live in -_-

Spring-heeled Jack

There are people who get too invested in things and don't know how to process those feelings. Be smart and careful, but don't let those people stop you from making your comic, art, fanart, or anything.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

ngl, I'm honestly legit scared. Not quite terrified but lowkey fear in my mind... I'm not at all active in con circuits, etc. so I don't think any physical harm will happen to me, but I do worry about potential online harassment.

Deo101 [Millennium]

Me too, to be completely honest

Spring-heeled Jack

Conventions are usually really great. I've been at some for about three years now and everyone has been so kind. Online, however, is more of a concern because people can post anything, it's easier with that distance.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Even with a low likelihood of something happening, common sense is definitely good. Don't take food, have a buddy nearby, have an 'out' if you feel uncomfortable. But yeah, cons seem to be lovely so far. If anyone causes trouble, staff usually does a good job wrangling them

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

Yeah, I've had great experiences at cons for the most part. A few creepy people that camped out at my table for a bit longer than comfortable, but otherwise it's been great

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

Oh yeah The campers. They mean well, but man... they CAMP.

Spring-heeled Jack

I get a lot of lingering people and returning people,. but only once so far did I really have someone just stand there and block others. But he was a bit older and was putting his change in his wallet from a sale, so I didn't want to say anything

Cronaj (Whispers of the Past)

I love the people who return! I usually get people returning the next day to buy something (or to buy more stuff). Those people always seem so invested in my work.

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Yeah, it's more the online stuff I worry about

o(-<

Deo101 [Millennium]

me too, I've been real lucky to have people mostly be very kind but theres always new fear with new readers, or every new thing i introduce that someone will be mad about it

Spring-heeled Jack

Lemme clarify, returners are okay, but the ones the are weird and linger and block the booth. That makes me a little stressed out

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

Oh man, Deo, I can feel those fears in my bones.

Deo101 [Millennium]

ahahha a bunch of new people show up and youre just like thats a lotta people who could be pissed at me huh?

I had someone get very upset with me over something once, in a way i never imagined someone would, and im coming up on a scene I've been planning for like a year now which canonized my characters trans identities, and I worry some people will think i am hmmmmmm doing a bad job

or not the job they want

Spring-heeled Jack

Forget them. Do what you have planned!

Deo101 [Millennium]

yup! but if people do get very upset with me I will still be hurt, even if I think I am really doing the best job I can

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

hard same

I won't bend my story, but I sure as hell will be hurt

Spring-heeled Jack

I understand. I worry that my queer characters aren't queer enough, but then that's a worry I have about myself IRL, sooooooo, I get you

Deo101 [Millennium]

someone once got upset with me over that ;) so i worry about it too

Spring-heeled Jack

It sucks because the opinion of others both don't matter and SUPER matters

Deo101 [Millennium]

or, sorry, they said I was blase my bad

and yeah like, im gonna do what i want but it still sucks when people are mean about it, regardless

which ^ is kind of how I feel about this shipping topic. Im gonna do what I want but Id really prefer people not be upset over not getting what they want.

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I think everyone's mileage varies on what 'the right representation' of relationships and characters is. Barring obvious no-nos, I don't think everyone will ever be 100% satisfied. I do very much dread that one person coming into my comments to tell me "You did this character/ship wrong, thus, you are a bad writer, and probably a bad person - gonna write an article about you now kthxbye" At that point, I would just hope enough people come to my side to go "Um... no?" because I would definitely want to recede far into the nearest dark corner and think about what I've done

Deo101 [Millennium]

Yeah. when I did get that comment of someone kind of telling me off about how Ive chosen to represent things. I really kind of started... not overthinking, because I dont think that worrying about doing a good job and taking comments into consideration is BAD, per se, but I started really worrying about whether or not i DID do something wrong. my friends came to my defense, which was very nice, and the person did actually end up changing their mind and kind of rescinding their comment. I think places like this and having people that support you to back you up when stuff like this happens is really important

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

It happened to me and it did absolutely suck. I'm genuinely unsure I can take another one if it happens again

Deo101 [Millennium]

yeah idk what I would do if someone went... that hard..

LadyLazuli (Phantomarine)

I think there are some reactions that not even sensitivity readers could predict. Like, things that are so out of left field, but also still make a bit of sense if you really, really stretch your brain? Arguments that would make for excellent thesis papers someday, tbh

Spring-heeled Jack

:( I'm really sorry it hurt you that much, Keii. I know I can say "don't let it get to you" all day but you will feel how you feel when someone pulls that kind of stuff. I hope it doesn't happen again and, if it does, I hope it doesn't hurt you!

I hope it helps to remember that there will probably be many people out there that see your work and see the characters and go "That's me!" or "I feel seen!"

Spring-heeled Jack

<3

We get a new topic tomorrow, yeah?

keii’ii (Heart of Keol)

I think so

Spring-heeled Jack

Nice!