#women in the church

[artist-issues]

I'm curious, what do you think of 1st Corinthians 14:34-35?

What we think of it doesn’t matter; what I think of it matters even less; what it says is what matters. It’s the Word of God.

“The women are to keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. But if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church.”

Everyone’s got a problem with that because it sounds like the Bible is saying women can’t ever talk in church at all. That’s not what it’s saying, though. You know why? Because this is two verses plucked straight out of a book that has 437 verses in it. That’s like if I read two sentences out of the middle of one of your emails to a close family member and took issue with whatever those two sentences said. Even though the context determines the meaning, so I have no right to get offended when I don’t understand the context. So what’s the context of 1 Corinthians by the time you get to 14:34-35?

The Apostle Paul is writing to a church in the Gentile city of Corinth in AD 53 or 54. That church was a blend of Jewish Christians and Greek Christians. Two completely different cultures were figuring out what the “assembly of the saints,” or “the first church services” were supposed to look like. And to make matters more complicated, they lived in one of the most morally bankrupt cities of that age. Literally, the Corinthian people had a Greek word coined to describe their immorality. So the people who lived there were generally all messed up, in terms of not knowing what was right and what was wrong. That extended to their church services.

The whole context of 1 Corinthians is “what is a church that glorifies the Lord supposed to look like?” The context of the specific chapter, 14, is “what should church assembly that glorifies the Lord look like? What should it not look like?”

How do I know? Read the verses that come before it. At the beginning of the chapter, Paul explains that spiritual gifts are for edifying other people. In fact, everything done in a church service, where the saints are gathered, is not for an individual. It’s for the edification of the whole group. So what might be okay to do in your own home or in private between you and God is not okay, because it’s not mindful, considerate, or edifying to other Christians when you’re in a church service.

Specifically, the Corinthians are all claiming to “prophesy” (get direct revelation from God) and “speak in tongues” (speak in known, but various and foreign, languages) all at once during the service. Everybody’s shouting over each other. Some people are shouting over each other “THUS SAYS THE LORD,” which is a huge deal. Because obviously if you’re going to claim that God has told you something, everyone should shut up, listen, and determine whether or not you’re telling the truth, because what could be a bigger deal than God speaking? But that’s not how the church in Corinth was treating it. Their services were helping nobody, least of all themselves, because it was loud chaotic pandemonium and nobody I was being edified. Everybody was shouting and judging. Including women. By verse 26, Paul is going:

“What is the outcome then, brothers? When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has a translation. Let all things be done for edification. If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must translate; but if there is no translator, he must keep silent in the church, and let him speak to himself and to God. And let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted. And the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; for God is not a God of confusion but of��peace, as in all the churches of the saints.”

And then he adds,

“The women are to keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. But if they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home, for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in church. Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it arrived to you only?

“If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment. But if anyone remains ignorant about this, he is ignored by God.

“Therefore, my brothers, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues. But all things must be done properly and in an orderly manner.”

Do you get it? The point is, “what does this specific situation, which is a church service, look like if we’re trying to do things in a God-honoring, orderly manner? Here’s what it does not look like: women can’t just stand up in church and take up the role of judge over men who are shouting that they are speaking from God, and call certain men impostors and certain men prophets.”

The point is not “all women should never ever speak in all church services because that’s disgraceful, they only get to talk to their husbands and get told what to do.”

If it were, then explain to me why, three chapters earlier, when he’s talking about head-coverings, Paul writes that women can prophesy in public?

“But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying, shames her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved.”

(if you want to talk about why the heck a woman has to have her head covered when she prophesies, blah blah blah, let’s talk about that too, but the answer’s going to be the same: context determines meaning, meaning is correct interpretation, etc.)

Additionally, why would Paul be commending the women in the church who have taught their sons and grandsons? How can they teach if they’re never allowed to talk in church, or if their only role in all contexts is “shut up and learn?”

Because that’s not their only biblical role. And that’s not what Paul was saying. Paul was saying, “in this specific context, here’s how a woman (among all the other people groups I’m also addressing) should conduct herself when the goal is to edify the believers in a church service, and not let anything get in the way of that goal.”

Now.

Guess what?

If the Bible did say, “all women shut up and listen all the time, let the men do the talking,” would you listen to it?

You, reading this. Would you have a problem with it? If that’s what God Sid to do, would you sit in judgement over God and say, “no, infinite Creator of all matter and life, You’re mistaken about how You should be worshipped and what these little creatures You made are for, let me correct and educate You with the judgement coming out of the three-pound lump of gray matter, which You designed and graciously allowed me to have in the first place, sitting inside my skull. Let me, the creature, tell You, the Creator, where you’re wrong and what ‘Being God’ should be like.”

I hope not. But I was super convicted reading this chapter for the first time and finding myself a) misunderstanding it and then b) having the appalling gall and arrogance to be outraged by it.

Who in the world am I? Who am I to be outraged, if God did say, “be quiet and spend your life listening to men?” If that were what He was saying, my response should be, “Yes, Lord.”

Why are we so concerned about being allowed to speak? What do we have to say that’s so great, that’s so necessary, that’s so devastating to have “removed” from us, anyway? Why do we care so much about being heard? Is it because we have something to say that could really help men, in the church services? Oh, really? And if we women don’t say it, God won’t edify the men? He’ll be handicapped because we were muzzled?

What’s so offensive about being told to stop talking and ask questions to learn, anyway? Why is that so infuriating, to us? We’re fools. The whole point of the Gospel is, “He (Jesus) must increase; I must decrease.” The best place in the world to be is at the feet of Jesus, learning. Humble. Not producing anything of ourselves, but absorbing everything He has to teach us. Who cares if it’s our husbands He plans to do that through? Who cares if we can’t teach men in church? What, we think God can’t handle that? We think He can’t teach them His own way, that His plan was flawed, that they’re “missing out” because God dropped the ball by telling us not to stand up in service and disrupt everything with this great ‘word’ we have, that nobody else has?

Ugh. God forgive me for ever even approaching a mindset that thinks I have something to say, and if I don’t say it, He won’t be able to accomplish His will. God forgive me for ever thinking my Western modern culture knows better than His divine plan. He designed human beings and men and women and what would best serve us before “culture” or “social frameworks” were ever even conceived of.

We all need to be a lot more humble. Me first.

I would encourage you to test what I said. If you read this, you should spend an equal amount of time studying the Bible for yourself and seeing if I was right, and if that’s really what God said and meant, based on the context, which determines meaning, because there is such a thing as “correct and incorrect interpretation” when the God of the universe meant something by what He said. And I could’ve gotten it wrong. And you don’t want to get it wrong.

[forward-in-joy]

'What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword? As it is written: “For your sake we are being slain all the day; we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered.”No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.' -- Romans 8:35-38

Happy Feast of St. Ursula and companions!

[pickmeforjesus]

Something I'll never truly get from this whole era of weeping about this generation's lack of "media literacy" is that you guys are the most illiterate ones when it comes to the Bible

The Bible will basically state "rapes happened" and you will be "GOD CONDONES RAPE!!"

Or radfem who are so adamant that Israelites raped captives which is impossible because Israelites were forbidden to have sex outside of marriage let alone with foreigners, and that the only condition to have a relationship with foreign women was by wifing them Deuteronomy 21:10-14.

And while Israelites at war were allowed to MARRY a female captive (still not rape because words have meaning and you guys need to stop projecting whatever stuff into an objective statement out of your own opinionated bias) they'll have to wait for marriage to be allowed to have sexual relationships with her. And you know what's funny? if that marriage didn't work or that the Israelite repudiates her, the Israelite man has the obligation to let her go ("If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes.") which makes any scenario where Israelites would forcefully marry captives for them to become their sex slaves completely moot because this passage actually establishes marriage as the only legal escape room for women to leave captivity (" let her go wherever she wishes." +"You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her.")

And inb4 "but why did Israelites kill women and children and kept them as captives?? WHY GOD IS SO CRUEL??" -> WELCOME TO THE OLD TESTAMENT where life was grim and Grace had yet to land onto humanity.

We as Christians don't abide to those rules anymore - Jewish people do. But since Christians are an easier target you only come at us to give accountability for still upholding those rules when we actually don't (we don' got to war to protect a territory because our Kingdom is in Heaven, and we now show the other cheek,not gouge the eye of those who wronged us). Go bother jewish people if you dare lol.... Oh my bad, the lots of you are too busy simping for them for being a bulwark against the Islamist menace whatever.

[orthodoxsoul]

On Holy Friday (in a few days for us Orthodox Christians) in many parishes, especially those under the Greek archdiocese, young girls dressed in white will serve as myrrh bearers (Μυροφόρες) in the Holy Friday service. During this service, the congregants participate in the funeral procession for Christ. The priest and the myrrh bearers, gathered around the Kouvouklion, a representation of the tomb of Christ, and sprinkle flower petals and rose water on the Epitaphios, a cloth embroidered with an icon of the body of Christ, laid in the tomb.

This is a beautiful bit of pageantry, but it's also an important reminder that the early Church called women to Himself even as He called men. Jesus Christ revealed His resurrection first to the Myrrhbearing women not to His apostles who were still in hiding.

He revealed Himself first to a woman, his mother. He performed His first miracle at the urging of a woman. He revealed His resurrection first to women. Women mattered to Christ and to the early Church. Women still matter to the expressions of Christianity who listen to the example of the early Church

[clandestinewhore]

𐕣 𐕣 𐕣

[j0celynh0rr0r]

Burn them all

[gospelborn]

Does the Bible Support Deaconesses?

“Deacons likewise must be dignified…Their wives likewise must be dignified,” (1 Tim 3:8, 11, ESV) Does the Bible restrict the office of deacon to men only? Much of this depends on how you interpret 1 Timothy 3:11. Depending on what translation you read, the answer may differ. The English Standard Version cited above (as well as the KJV) implies that what is discussed in verse 11 is the…

[yeslordmyking]

Acts 17:4 — Today's Verse for Thursday, July 27, 2023

[lesbicosmos]

when hozier said "if im a pagan of the good times, my lover's the sunlight" and when hozier said "no grave can hold my body down, i'll crawl home to her" and when hozier said "i slithered here from eden just to sit outside your door" and when hozier said "heaven is not fit to house a love like you and i" and when hozier said-

[holygirlforjesus]

Her real Glow up was when she began focusing on God.

[gent-illmatic]

[forward-in-joy]

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A post shared by Company of St. Ursula of Canada (@companyofstursula)

As we head into Vocations Awareness Week, we pray, "Jesus, Divine Redeemer who inspired Saint Angela Merici to found the Company of Saint Ursula, the first institute of virgins consecrated in the world, deign to raise up new vocations to the Company of Saint Angela's daughters, to increase the numbers of those who, in their consecration of earthly reality, adore You in spirit and truth."

[pickmeforjesus]

Ok but I literally don't understand separatist radfem who have a problem with Christian forbidding women to take authority on a man (in spiritual education) because that statement doesn't remove the possibility of women to teach each other in women only spaces 🤔

There's not a single verse forcing women to be under a male authority in Christianity. Although marriage is seen as blessing, celibacy is highly encouraged in Christianity and seen as "better" (because it lives us more room & time to work for God vs family that distracts us a lot from that task)

Christianity is a culture where female only spaces are most likely to be protected and removed from the compulsiveness of male romantic partnership. Christianity is the only religion to uplift celibacy, which is highly compatible with separatism and other more recent separatist movements like 4B.

Men and women can work together of course, notably in the work for God (I always found endearing how Paul mentionned his "sisters" in his letters, or how Mary Magdalene eventually joined the apostles squad and was a key element in announcing to them Christ Resurrection lol), but not romantically, and that's how men and women mutual complementarity should also be considered. Not only in marriage.

I'm not saying that Christianism is "progressive" per se and I grasp the objective inequality of men being able to spiritually teach to women but not the other way around, but calling it as an oppressive tool of patriarchy to keep women under a man's thumb is one glaring misunderstanding if I ever saw one. Gatekeeping is not "oppressive" and there's some quite irony is seeing radfem spouting the same rhetoric as TRA the moment they're not included in spaces or roles they feel entitled to (religious minstrel authority)....🥴

For example, the NBA is not "oppressive" to tiny people for not considering them eligible for enlistment. Biology and the privilege it gives us on some specific outcome *is* unfair - it doesn't men God is unfair. It doesn't mean He values us differently because of our differences and the different purposes they leave for us to access.

As I already said once, there's not a single verse saying women are inherently inferior to men. I say that because one feminist (?) tried to argue the Bible calling women more "fragile/weaker" was God saying we were inferior... Which is very confusing but this statement is a blanket statement of many (radical) feminists saying that women objective fragility in comparison to male, is the reason we should have our own space (notably in sports) to protect us from men overpowering us 🤔 radfem and God are seemingly on the same page here lol

[lazycranberrydoodles]

transfems your wangxian

[mindsynthcreations]

[ominouspositivity-or-else]

writing a paper on second wave feminism and the catholic church and going into it i was not prepared for the level at which people think the church is oppressing and suppressing women.

like girl where

is it. is it one of the countless churches named after. the mother of God. or. or the hundreds of female saints. or. the art on the walls. or the nuns who are the life of a parish. or. what. are we looking at the same thing here. it's our seventh Marian feast day of the year. later we have a whole day in honor of Edith Stein. sometimes men take the names of women. by choice. in their teen years. is that. is that where women are getting oppressed by the church