#with those people either cersei is dumb or too cunning for her own good

[joanna-lannister]

THEY CAN'T BE THAT SERIOUS... 😂🤡

[janiedean]

So Cercei assumes shes intelligent and everyone says she is but really is the dumb dumb of the lot (needs a dunce hat instead of that crown). Tyrion has been told he is smart, knows he is intelligent and it is known. Poor Jaime is told hes dumb and he think he is dumb but is really actually quite intelligent and wise. Its not that hard to work out guiz.

pretty much even if ngl... ah well fuck that, let’s just go off on this since I’ve had it nagging at me since a lot and I’m pissed off, so.

point the first: I really hate this general idea that you can decide if someone’s intelligent or not just based on the same three usual characteristics - like, there’s different types of intelligence (that’s pretty much the basic theory going around but there’s more or less if you go by different ones, but nvm that), someone can be emotionally intelligent and not being immediately good at math or have book smarts, or they can be a genius when it comes to book smarts and be a total no when it comes to emotional intelligence and whatnot, so like.... the argument in itself is already flawed imvho

point the second: the fact that *books* smarts are seeing as 90% of what intelligent means is imvho a thing that should have burned years ago because it gives way to the implications for which if you have issues reading or can’t do it at once or don’t immediately understand what you read and so on you’re stupid/dumb/whatnot which in this case was brought up tenfold with the fact that they made show!jaime dyslexic but that’s gonna be discussed in a moment

now, of course the *book* smarts are a type of intelligence like guys ffs you’re talking - full disclosure - to someone who could related out of those three to both jaime and tyrion even if I don’t have their specific issues. as in: I had/have issues that are more pertinent to other characters, but my basic coping was 50% telling myself ‘well at least you have a brain and you can use it’ and 50% making self-deprecating terrible taste humor jokes, and like... I’m a disaster on a lot of things but I tend to sense emotions pretty well and I can probably sell my typical book smarts so like, I’m not going to say it’s overrated or anything. it’s one type of it. but it existing doesn’t mean that people who don’t are stupid or that it’s the most valid or whatever

now, the problem with those three is that the situation has to include their father or we don’t get it, but:a) their father and pretty much only parental figure that matters to the three of them since joanna dies too early is cunning, has *typical* smarts the way we intend it, is extremely amoral and practical and also doesn’t gaf about anyone’s feelings but his own and doesn’t care for his kids as people, so *that* is what they grow up with when it comes to ‘person they would consider *intelligent* as a go-to’ and who pretty much fucked them all up differently but they don’t know;b) tyrion, as genna said in affc but is misinterpreted by 90% of people who read it in both senses, is tywin’s son because he also is cunning, has the book smarts, is good at politics, can see the consequences of his actions and/or at least tries, is fairly pragmatic and is the only one out of the three of them who’d have had the skills to bring on the family legacy if tywin actually gave him a shred of credit and hadn’t hated him for his looks/for joanna’s death, but at the same time tywin is an asshole and tyrion is not, tywin doesn’t gaf about anything else but the family/his legacy, tyrion actually cares about cripples bastards and broken things, tywin doesn’t gaf about anyone’s feelings, tyrion’s extremely empathetic towards people, and also as you pointed out he knows that his brain is what will sell his merchandise so to speak and that’s why he keeps it sharp as he said to jon way back in the day - he’s entirely aware that his intelligence is the one thing he can rely on, and he has to know that;c) cersei thinks she’s tywin but like the problem with cersei is that regardless of how smart she is or not, the problem is that she’s not tywin because tywin wasn’t caught up in his narcissism/his own need to see his personal needs met to not see the bigger picture. cersei is incompetent as hell because she can only see as far as what’s convenient to her and what would give her advantage and what would put her on the throne and give her power, which means that most decisions she takes are out of the world ridiculous/self-damaging because she can’t conceive that you’d need advice by other people or everything her father conceived to be in power, like... tywin never wanted the throne but was the more powerful for being a hand of the king and moving his strings on the side, and he didn’t need to flaunt it, which she can’t conceive it - like, she thinks she’s better than everyone because she got the thirst for power and the ruthlessness from him, but she doesn’t have his detachment, she doesn’t have his capacity to see the bigger picture and she can’t understand that the world doesn’t revolve around her, which means that regardless of how smart she is or not she does increasingly dumb things because she doesn’t act logically;d) jaime on the other side as that quote by genna has nothing of tywin in him, like zero - he doesn’t have the ruthlessness, he doesn’t gaf about the politics, he doesn’t want to be in power and he’s very emotionally attuned to people, and he definitely doesn’t have the *book* smarts tyrion has (either in the book because he doesn’t seem to be too interested in that or in the show where they did the dyslexic characterization on top of tywin forcing him to learn in his usual abusive-ass parent of the year way which... I mean I wouldn’t find reading such a great thing after that either), nor his sister’s taste for politics, so since it’s apparently assumed that in westeros if you’re a firstborn male heir you should be interested in at least the power side of the equation while he just wants to defend the innocents and love his family (nvm the jc part of it y’all get what I’m aiming at) that seems somehow not smart of him, when........ he’s actually not because he’s extremely good at reading situations and thinking around the corners, again he has great emotional intelligence and interpersonal, which... in the lannister household would not be seen as a winning quality, which is why cersei thinks he’s that much **stupider** than her, because he doesn’t want what she wants and he cares about people when she doesn’t, but count that tyrion himself ie the one out of the three who has both the typical book smarts and both inter-intrapersonal intelligence (jaime is working on the intrapersonal one I think lmao) never thinks ‘wow I love my brother but he’s the stupidest lannister’ and the only time he thinks of him in those terms is when he tells him that cersei was cheating on him. actually all the contrary, and I mean now that’d sound weird to me if he considered the stupidest in the family the one person he trusts and that he obviously knows better than either his father did (because his father only sees in jaime his potential heir, not his own person, and cersei sees herself in him, she doesn’t gaf about him as his own person either)

so like...... he thinks he’s not that much bright in comparison to the others because he doesn’t have the book smarts/the cunning/the drive for power and guess why the entire point is that he has to reconcile himself with the fact that what he wanted when he was young (being a knight/being a good person) isn’t something to be trashed and he still can be that, but like he’s legitimately the only one of them who’s not delusional and who can see that they didn’t win his war At Fucking All, also while tyrion never thinks that of him and never tells him anything of the kind until the tysha reveal when he’s understandably angry and he uses it as a wake-up call NOT TO HUMILIATE HIM, cersei tells him that all the goddamned time also to humiliate him and make the idea pass that she knows better than he does, and since he’s spent his entire life listening to her/thinking she’s right/thinking he’s her/whatever he most likely internalized that too....... except that it’s abuse and emotional manipulation, fuck’s sake.

like: the reasons he’d assume that and others would assume it are that he doesn’t want political power and would rather do his knight thing (which is inconceivable to both cersei and tywin) and that he internalized what cersei says about him (which is honestly gross as hell) and we can add that maybe he can’t see her for what she is until he gets the wake-up call.... but guess what, so people in abusive rship are stupid? because they can’t see that their partner is abusive? really? that’s what we’re implying? and the fact that in the show they made him dyslexic (which in itself isn’t even going anti book canon or couldn’t be a thing to add that didn’t make sense), they had tywin openly tell arya that he tried to *cure* him out of it, therefore confirming that tywin totally agrees to that stereotype for which people with learning disorders/who can’t READ at once/might need help with it are STUPID and he couldn’t afford to have his kid need help, ofc not...... and like, that was where you actually turn the storyline around and you show that it doesn’t mean shit and that regardless of that... jaime is a person who is very bright just more bent towards emotional/intrapersonal intelligence, he can do good things which he wants to, he can live up to his potential and he can find people who will value him for himself and who love him for who he is and who the fuck cares if he’s not cunning or politically-driven or thirsty for power or trying to overpower anyone or that he wasn’t ever going to become a grand maester. BUT NO, they had to go the other way and have cersei keeping on belittling him and his intelligence for seasons, and then when he goes back to her he gets told HE’S THE STUPIDEST LANNISTER ALL OVER AGAIN and/or even worse calls himself like that and they go and say in the commentaries he’s not bright enough for cersei or whatever the fucking fuck was that? like, sorry but it’s just gross and has horrible implications and I can’t with it. like, I can’t. one thing is fans going like ‘ah well he’s my trashcan fave and he does dumb things out of love but he’s my trashcan fave who does dumb things out of love’, one thing is the showrunners doing that and making it pass like his supposed lack of the aforementioned traits belonging to either his father, cersei or tyrion means that he’s the fucking stupidest lannister or whatever.

this when we’re talking about someone who’s love-driven and not ambition driven and whose issues were 90% tied to how he was emotionally manipulated/abused/traumatized for his entire life (christ he had ptsd at seventeen and he DISSOCIATES AT WILL SINCE BEFORE THEN THIS GUY HAS ISSUES), so we’re basically saying that someone who is emotionally open/wants desperately emotional ties with the people he loves and doesn’t care for power trips and spends half of his life with everyone but tyrion taking advantage of it and making his issues even worse and convincing him he doesn’t have self-worth besides his sword skills and being of use to other people is.... not bright? dumb? the stupidest? seriously?

sorry but I’m fucking done with this travesty. emotionally open people aren’t stupid, emotionally abused people aren’t stupid, traumatized people who don’t know they’re traumatized and who need help are not stupid, people with learning disorders are not stupid and I just want to dracarys this idea that jaime is not as bright as whoever the fuck else with all three goddamned lizards at once.

there, that was my ted talk.

[truthsuniversallyacknowledged]

Now I’ve Stopped Crying: Why The Game of Thrones Ending Sucked

I needed this to exist and it didn’t. So here it is, in no particular order: 

1. Violation of its own rules 

Westeros was loosely based off of Medieval/Renaissance Europe - the filming locations were exclusively European, and all manner of cultural ‘identifiers’ - clothing, political system, ethnicity of the actors/characters - followed that of Medieval Europe. The Red Wedding is based off a real Italian wedding, Jaime and Cersei resemble Cesare and Lucrezia Borgia, a real set of incestuous aristocratic siblings, while Sansa and Joffrey also have their naming equivalents in the same family - Lucrezia’s brother, Gioffre, and his wife, Sancia. The High Sparrow is also similar to Savonarola, a religious fanatic in late Renaissance Italy, Braavos has clear parallels with Venice - I could easily continue. 

Naturally, there were cultural ideas from Medieval Europe which were clearly established in Game Of Thrones - the divine right of kings, bastardry, and discrimination towards women, foreigners, and various other minority groups - including the disabled. By pretending that Bran would have been keenly accepted not only by the aristocracy, but by the average peasant in Westeros, the plot is suddenly ignoring the framework within which the show has been operating. Throughout the show, there were two aspects a king had to have; either he could take the throne by force, requiring a large army or perhaps dragons, or he needed to be born in line - the right to the throne which has paramount to the entire series. One thing is ultimately clear; Bran as the King is jarringly wrong.

2. Compromising of characters

One thing Game of Thrones did exceptionally well is nailing politics; by the end of the series viewers had a clear understanding of the motives and principles of every character. But the ending D&D wanted would never have been allowed to happen with our set of characters around (perhaps this should have been a red flag that it wasn’t a good idea!) and so we watched as characters we’d known for years suddenly forgot who they were. Daenerys wanted to break the wheel and end suffering, and she sacrificed enormously because she wasn’t willing to take her dragons and burn the place down because that’s not the person she wanted to be - until the writers wanted her to be. I could have accepted that u-turn in character arc - if it was the only one. Jaime, after being almost killed by Cersei, finally, finally decided he’d had enough and made the choice to go to Brienne, which was the culmination of seasons and seasons of him slowly improving as a person and agonising over his feelings for cersei and his own identity. And then he just went “nah”. The Northerners, regarded for their strong loyalty, let Jon wander off into the wilderness and readily accept Sansa as their new ruler. Despite earlier reminiscing on her father’s words regarding how “the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives”, Arya decides to... be a lone wolf. on a boat.

But I’m barely getting started. Tyrion, a cunning political mastermind, not only became dumb as dog shit, but, having first-hand knowledge of the treatment of disabled individuals in Westeros, despite any ability they might have (not that Bran demonstrated ANY ability to lead well through the whole series - but I’ll get to that), he somehow didn’t see any problem with this plan. (Side note: if right to the throne and being disabled don’t matter, why couldn’t Tyrion be king?) 

Sam. Sam takes the whole goddamn cake. He is the one who discovers Jon’s parentage, and with a FULL UNDERSTANDING of how important it is. And he has watched Jon demonstrate bravery and courage and leadership time and time again - he is his best friend and strongest advocate. And so, when the time comes for him to fight for Jon: he suggests democracy? and then lets Bran take over without so much as a word in Jon’s defense? Pathetic. And so, so, wrong. 

3. “Who Has a Better Story than Bran the Broken?”

I could name a few. hundred.  We have been watching a series that clearly followed Jon Snow and Daenerys Targaryen, and a long list of other political players, artistocratic families and usurpers - but from the very beginning, we have followed those two, always. To suggest that the entire direction of the series was some great practical joke, designed only for an oh-so-shocking plot twist, is so utterly contemptuous of us, their loyal audience. It’s also absurdly disrespectful to the story itself, which deserved a real ending. 

4, When you play the Game of Thrones, you win or you die. 

Jon did neither. His end was a total cop-out - D&D didn’t want to kill him, but him winning would have been too predictable, so they formed a sheepish way out that they seemed to think was good enough. They were wrong. 

And as for Bran? He wasn’t. even. playing.

But this is a symptom of the biggest issue with this whole ending; avoiding predictability was more important to the writers than ending the story well. Having spent years and years watching an intricate story as it followed out its natural path, in accordance to the guiding principles of each character and they world in which they live, it’s no surprise that some audience members were bound to predict the ending. But we loved game of thrones not just for its plot twists, but also for its witty dialogue, deep and fascinating characters, and consistently captivating story - this ending had a whole lotta shock, and not much of anything else. 

5. Bran didn’t deserve it 

I already touched on why Bran would never have been accepted and how totally inconsistent his takeover was with, well, everything. But Bran isn’t at all kingly - he hasn’t demonstrated leadership of any kind, hasn’t participated in the politics of the kingdom yet still has no understanding of the everyday person, and also displays no compassion or empathy, particularly towards Meera.  He also didn’t see anything wrong with taking the throne from Jon, who not only deserved it according to the show’s framework but also deserved it in the eyes of the audience because he was, simply put, a good leader and a good person. 

We also never really got an explanation as to why Bran was Bran again - and i thought the Three Eyed Raven couldn’t take titles. This whole ending really doesn’t stand up to even mild scrutiny - evidence of the lack of thought which ruined one of the greatest shows of all time. 

6. What was the goddamn point? 

Why couldn’t Gendry be King? Or Tyrion? Why did it matter at all that Jon was Targaryen, or the rightful heir? Why did we bother watching Daenerys scheme for season after season if she was going to burn King’s landing anyway? Why did Melisandre bother to bring Jon back to life if he wasn’t going to be significant in killing the Night King or taking the throne? What the hell was the point of the white horse? 

7. An end to the post (hopefully I did a better job than they did)

I felt compelled to write this because I have yet to cease encountering people who think that this disgrace disguised as an ending was okay. And it truly upsets me that it was such a disservice to what was a truly fabulous show. 

But the last reason that this ending sucked has a silver lining; it was widlly wrong, and most of us knew it instinctively - before we really analysed it and argued about it (and it my case, composed overly long posts about it). And we knew it instinctively because we know this story - and maybe, like me, you weren’t sure what exactly to expect, but you knew it wasn’t this. We know this story, and we know the true ending - even if it’s only in our hearts. 

[nineteensixtieschikadee]

your annulment post is absolutely on point. the way d&d have been handling the whole r+l+e pisses me off so much and it seems like they want to avoid things being complex to make things more clearcut (idk if that's the word?) and simpler to write even though as you said, that complexity is what makes asoiaf so great and what attracted such a massive fanbase for got in the first place. now, d&d don't even see how their simplification is weakening the story, making dumbass moves, (1/2)

I absolutely agree with you. Unfortunately, this is one of GOT’s biggest issues. Ever since GRRM had left the show to finish writing TWOW *damn you George* and now that the show has passed the books, the showrunners have seemed to forget one of the most important aspects that has to fit both the books and the show for it to be it good. And that is the overall theme of human/story complexity. I am thrilled, overjoyed that R+L=J is “semi confirmed.” However the sad thing is the showrunners decided to fucking touch this plot line and simplify it. One of the reasons that got me reading the books years ago, was because I had stumbled upon this theory years back, and the history of GOT had intrigued me so much that I ended up reading this book series. It did not disappoint. The show however… The whole R x L x E story line in the books is one of the most mysterious, intriguing, alluring and interesting plot line out of all the GOT plot lines. It is in fact also the most complex of them all. And the fact that the showrunners had touched upon it before the books is really devastating. Because GOT has become so huge now, and the fact that it has a wide general audience that only care about dragons, bobbies and magical ice zombies saddens me. Because there is so much more to GOT than just those qualities. It’s known to be a modern realistic tackle on the consequences of war, on human relationships and identities, and most importantly, human complexities. But even that was changed and taken away. It’s as if the showrunners believe that the typical general audience are dumb asses who need to have everything condensed and simplified for them to understand anything that’s going on.

Out of all of the storylines, Dorne’s plot had been affected the most by this stupid change. They decided to only focus on one part of the Dorne plot line, and fucking ruined by making the characters useless and illogical to plot. They had decided to cut out half of it’s characters, including important ones like Arianne Martell and stick to 3 lame ass, one dimensional characters. With also having other notable characters be the complete opposite of their book counterparts. This is why I didn’t want the show to touch on the R x L x E story line. They are all connected together as a wide, complex clusterfuck that was slowly but surely  unraveling in the novels. But look what they. They touched it, and ruined it by a single sentence claiming that Rhaegar had “annulled” Elia that same day he married Lyanna. This probably would have made more sense if Elia had already died and Rhaegar needed an heir so he married Lyanna afterwards. Though this is most likely not the case because they decided to put in a fucking plot hole that disposed Elia quickly and made Rhaegar and Lyanna into a disney couple. R + L are OTP asf. However, they are far more complex than a disposable Romeo and Juliet type. Rhaegar especially is complex because we truly don’t know his motives (at least in the books) Though it does look like the show will come to that conclusion soon. -_- Lyanna too, she is the most important character in the Northern arc plot line because she is the reason all this shit happened to the North. If Lyanna really didn’t believe that Robert would keep to one bed, but still decided to marry Rhaegar for love, then yeah, she’s a fucking hypocrite. Though not in the way that dehumanizes her. If that were the case then her personality, her identity as a Northern warrior and her inner thoughts are far more complex than what is thought to be. And people forget this. People who are so anti Lyanna, or Rhaegar forget that the main theme of human complexity, the character contradicting to itself, is so fucking important to the story. It’s what makes the story so real and I guess character wise, relatable too. 

What people also seem to forget is the major importance that Elia plays in this story. Like I said, Elia is the other half that completes the song of ice and fire. Without her, the whole R + L = J plotline would be stupid, and more so cliched and FAR LESS complex than it already is in the show. Without her there would be no story of Jon Snow. Which is what everyone seems to be forgetting. However we can’t also deny the fact that people who are so anti Lyanna and Rhaegar forget that Elia herself, was also as complex as they were. Because we don’t know anything about her, even less than Rhaegar and Lyanna, that makes her character arc so complex and  ambiguous because we don’t even know her reaction to the Tourney at Harrenhall incident. For all we know, she could have been a part of it. Or not, depending on your own opinion. Like what you said, the show runners seem to view the Dornish people as some sort of villainous type who are viewed as “sexy and dangerous.” Which is so fucking far off from what the Dornish people actually are. The Dornish people aren’t just dangerous or sexy people who are open to polygamous relationships. No. They are unbowed, unbent and unbroken people. They are poc who chose to be their own nation and chose to be stronger than the others. They are intelligent and cunning. And the Martells especially. What I hate about this whole situation is that people always limit Elia to a “delicate little flower” who deserved better. Which in truth, yeah she deserved better, speaking from all of us who ship R + L. BUT SHE WAS MORE THAN A DELICATE FLOWER. Like her family. Like Oberyn and Doran and like Arianne too, she wasn’t just a “delicate flower.” She was a Dornish. She was a Martell. She was a fucking viper. Elia is kind, and gentle and sweet and beautiful and witty. But she was more than that. She was clever and politically intelligent. And maybe even cunning. She was more than a flower type, and the fact that her fans can sometimes reduce her to only that. Like what? Elia too was just as complex. Just like Cersei,  Varys, Petyr,  Oberyn, or Margery and Arianne, Elia most likely knew how to play the game too. And she was probably good at it. If my speculation ever  became true, and Elia was a part of this conspiracy of Lyanna and Rhaegar, creating a far more complex story line, then it just means that Elia herself, undermined her own strategy, and made a wrong move in the political game of thrones that lead to dire consequences.

I said this before, and I will say it again. The moment you choose to limit a character to only one defining quality is what erases the character’s own complexity. It what all fans of either Rhaegar, Lyanna and Elia miss. We all choose to stan them or dehumanize them based on one of their defining traits. Example being, Jamie Lannister who is dehumanized by everyone (excluding Brienne) as a kingslayer for he stabbed and killed the mad king, the king that he sworn to protect. This became his defining quality, and therefore all his other qualities and complexities were brushed away. 

There are more than meets they eye of these 3 complicated characters. These characters were strong, intelligent, selfish and so fucking complicated. And the way that the show runners decided to play with them, sucks. To add on to what you said, by playing around with what was arguably the most strongest story line from the books, had made it’s show’s counterpart arguably the weakest, after the Dorne plot line. These 3 characters had one of the most politically unique story lines in the books and it honestly sucks that they aren’t getting the revelation that they deserve. Lets be honest, the whole  R x L x E story line deserved better.