#will byers s2 core <3< /div> Explore tagged Tumblr posts

[aceoflanterns]

no longer sad wet cat now i am evil

[emblazons]

I think the thing that makes me sometimes "doubt" Byler endgame is how the writers seem to treat Will in the narrative by either making him nonexistent, sidelined and unimportant overall with often minimum screentime. Idk. A lot of ppl tried to explain why it was necessary for him to be sidelined but that resulted in the audience thinking that Byler has no chance of becoming canon and that Will is just a useless background character. Add the monologue moment in S4 and Mike constantly talking about all in S4, how do you explain the duffers will make the narrative fit in what they have showed so far in the show? Most ppl will think Byler came out of nowhere and if Will gets a huge moment regarding fixing/saving the world ppl will think it came out of blue and there was no buildup. It takes really pains to prove Will's importance and Mike's love for Will. And not sure if the writers will manage that.

—so I’ve answered some version of this kind of doubt several times on this blog before, so I’m going to direct you to those posts, so as not to reinvent the wheel:

Will's Taking a Backseat in S3 + Dustin companion piece

The Duffers, Show v Tell, and people missing subtext

The Duffers Aren't Writing "Casual TV"...they're writing for themselves and people like them

Why people assume ST is written poorly (like other shows)

General Audiences, Media Literary, and "Catching" Byler

Why I Don't Understand "Duffer Doubt"

On: "Objective" Byler (and ST) Commentary

The Duffers, the "GA," and how your value system affects how you go about interpreting (or missing things in) media

Mike & Will's 3 season arc (and how it fits in the wider narrative)

On: M&R being "2 Straight White Guys" writing a queer story

+ a cut for more thoughts about how Will really wasn't all that sidelined lmao

That said: if I’m honest, I fundamentally disagree with the premise that the duffers somehow need to “make the narrative of Will fit into s5,” as though he hasn’t been integral to the Hawkins connection to the UD since literally day one.

That, combined with the fact that he was barely even in season one outside of flashbacks (and yet still managed to carry all of S2) + hasn’t really been sidelined at all if you know how to read emotional beats and not just “action” ones? Like, sure, him not being front and center was true in S3, but given that he is the center of all of Mike’s emotional decisions across all of S4 and is now quite literally holding the “main relationship” (which it’s not, but we’ll let that go) together…saying he’s not central to what’s to come given his active connection to El, Mike, every single Byers, the rest of the Party and now Henry/Vecna as we file back into Hawkins is insane.

IMO, the real problem (and at the risk of sounding like every byler critic on the internet) is that the show is made of an ensemble cast who have all had their rounds in the spotlight over the seasons…which means that Will is not going to always be at the fore front of the action, because this is not The Will Show and not every season is written with his story as its primary narrative core. That said, if you are paying attention to the emotional and even supernatural beats of the show, you can clearly see where they’ve set Will up to hold an important and even critical role in the final season—

—especially given that characters like Henry and Vecna didn’t even technically exist 2 seasons ago, and yet now hold primary weight in the story and in the minds of this “general audience” people love acting like matter most to the Duffers (even tho they have repeatedly said they don’t lmao).

I personally do not give a damn about what “the GA” thinks is possible given that half of them were mad when Will was central to the story in S2 (the 'S2 was my least favorite season / the season I don't watch much of people) and half of them couldn’t even tell he was gay, despite being plain as day to anyone who doesn’t need every single beat of the story spelled out for them….and that the duffers literally and repeatedly make fun of people for doing I throughout the show.

All that said...I respect your right to doubt, but…of all the things I could doubt The Duffers being able to pull off in the minds of this nebulous “GA” everyone thinks is so stupid they haven't picked up on any subtext or plain narrative (which I could make a strong case they aren't...which is why they pitch such a bitch lmao), making Will central to the 5th season after all the pains they’ve taken to flesh out both his connection to the UD and his romantic feelings/sexuality is not one of them.

It's not as nearly "blindsiding" as people seem to think it is—because the second you stop thinking everyone is heteronormative, you realize a lot of people who just aren't as loud as the naysayers on the internet see it plain as day.

[kurokoros]

I hate complaining about Billy Hargrove because it gives off the impression that I don’t like the inclusion of morally ambiguous characters. And that’s not the case. I like S1 Steve because I think there’s complexity to be explored under the stereotypical 80s jock that the Duffers gave us. I like Doctor Brenner because he’s a manipulative piece of shit and the series wouldn’t function the same without him. I really enjoy Billy’s inclusion in the series in S2 and think he had a lot of potential to act as a foil to Steve and even Jonathan, to a degree. 

What I don’t like is how canon really tries to overcorrect in S3 or how the fanon attempts to read into subtext that either doesn’t exist or blatantly contradicts the subtext that does exist.

“The Hargroves are poor, so the hate against Billy is classist in nature.” But there’s no evidence to suggest this. Billy drives a nice car. We’re never shown the Hargrove/Mayfield family struggling for money in S2-3 like the way the show gives us proof that the Byers are struggling financially. That’s a core part of Jonathan’s character, it’s not a part of Billy’s. Despite watching Stranger Things several times, I’ve never once gotten the impression that Billy and Max were anything less than regular middle class.

“Billy isn’t a ‘good victim’ and that’s why people dislike him.” Until S3 there was no real indication that Billy was being abused on the regular. In the scene with Neil, Billy is snarky and makes it clear that Max isn’t his responsibility. That doesn’t make what Neil does any less deplorable, but it also doesn’t give the impression that Billy is all too afraid of talking back or pressing buttons. Parenting was different in the 80s. From personal experience, I know that there are a lot of 80s kids that are very cavalier about being physically abused for being disrespectful. For all we, the audience, know, Neil hitting Billy isn’t a regular occurrence. It doesn’t make it less shitty, obviously, but I do think that fanon attempts to make Billy’s home life more tragic than it actually was. Canon also does something similar in S3 to make Billy more sympathetic before his death, but I don’t find Billy’s writing in S3 to be very good. He’s possessed the entire time. He barely, if ever, interacts with Max, Steve, or Lucas--the three characters Billy should have been interacting with--and instead all of his interactions are with Karen Wheeler and El. It’s not a bad thing to have certain characters be sympathetic, or even empathetic, towards Billy, but the show completely ignores the conflicts between Billy, Steve, Max, and Lucas in S3 in order to make people upset about his death, rather than satisfied or plain apathetic.

I have issues with the way some people try to write off Billy being racist towards Lucas. Namely, that they try to pass it off as Billy actually just being protective of Max. Billy threatens to run Lucas, Mike, and Dustin over with his car just to fuck with Max before he has any indication that they know each other more than happening to be in the same class. There are a lot of Billy-centric meta that tries to argue that actually Billy is trying to keep Lucas away because it would make Neil go after Max, but I feel this gives far too much credit to Neil while taking responsibility away from Billy. Billy probably did get his opinions from Neil. That would make sense. But we have no reason to believe that Billy doesn’t just hold the same racist beliefs and that’s why he goes after Lucas. Attributing Billy’s behavior to an attempt at protecting Max is just willfully ignoring what’s actually happening, in my opinion. Not everything is actually subtext. Sometimes people really are just shitty without having covert motives behind their actions. Personally, I think that makes Billy more of an interesting character, with potential for growth, than if he was actually just trying to protect Max. It adds a layer of complexity, as shown in S4.

I also have issues with how the Max/Billy conflict is resolved in S2. I think the Duffers leaned too far into giving Max a cool girlboss moment instead of just allowing her to be a scared child. While it was fine to have Max try to stand up to Billy, I think the sedative being there was too convenient, and I think Billy proceeding to leave Max alone after that incident was wishful thinking.

TLDR: I think Billy is an interesting character, but the fandom and canon tries too hard to make him more tragic and less shitty than he actually is.

[cranesofibycus]

I've started watching Stranger Things from the beginning, since I never got past season 2. I've heard people rave about season 4, but my god why is season 3 such hot garbage? All of the core dynamics are split up, every conflict feels contrived, the main cast feel more like caricatures than characters, everything that had previously been established as 'hard' in the magic system is ignored or abandoned, and the whole soviet villain narrative feels cheaply done and camp in a way that messes with the perfect balance of genres that the show struck in s1 and s2. At this point I have no idea how season 4 can save this, but I'll trust the rave reviews I've heard and will persevere (also because Will Byers is neat and deserves the world and I want to see what happens to him). But man, what a terrible direction for such a fun, unique show.

[wakeupthemembersofbylernation]

They say stuff like, “He was missing for most of Season 1 and possessed for most of Season 2, so that makes him a plot device and nothing more. El has more screentime, has superpowers, and was central to both seasons, so that makes her the main character. Will is irrelevant.”

I think it’s a matter of them “bonding” with El when they watched S1 but not “bonding” with Will. They got attached to El’s dynamic with the Party in S1 and by extension Mlvn, but they just saw Will as a boy who went missing. That’s why, even though Will has been Mike’s best friend since Kindergarten and a key member of the Party way before anyone met El, they often talk about a “Core 4” that excludes Will. And when they hear the show is going back to its early season dynamics, they think about stuff like this:

And not stuff like this:

That’s why a lot of Mlvns hate Season 2. Because it wasn’t an extension of the “Core 4” (Mike, El, Lucas, and Dustin) core fouring, nor did it have a lot of Dustin and Steve being funny together screentime. It exists in a “weird” middle ground where the Party is together, but Will’s there instead of El, who is separated from the group until the end. And then Mike and Will start spending a lot of time one-on-one together. But Will-antis filter everything through the “Will is unimportant” lens, so they see iconic scenes like the Crazy Together scene and wholeheartedly believe Mike was talking about El so it’s a Mlvn scene actually. Even though everything in S2 is extremely gay and Byler-coded, Will’s possession storyline allows them to continue to believe Will is just a plot device as they await the Mlvn reunion. Will antis see S2 as that season Mike was really sad cause he was separated from his girlfriend, and Will was there too, for some reason. And then Snowball happened, so all was well!

In Season 3, Will was intentionally sidelined for thematic and plot reasons. But instead of feeling sad for Will, Will-antis see an annoying, whiny bowl-cut boy who keeps trying to get in the way of True Love™️. Why won’t he grow up? Doesn’t he know that you’re supposed to leave behind your interests and focus on making out all day?And in Season 4, they still don’t understand or empathize with Will, so they don’t understand why he’s crying, and they don’t like it. Plot devices should shut up and know their place.

If they took a step back and actually took a second to understand the themes of the show and Will Byers as a character, they would see as we do. They would see that, hmm, maybe if a character haunts the narrative in his absence, possesses the narrative in his presence, constantly gets in the way of the marital bliss of his best friend and makes a love triangle through his swagger, and creates a road trip that is so fruity and tension-filled while also having a powerful and unprocessed connection with the main villain of the show, maybe there’s a reason?

Trying to comprehend how Will Byers antis make it through s1-2 of Strangers Things.

[jacksallys]

The fact that they teased Will and Mike’s growth as best friends but even that got pushed to the side(from what I’ve seen? Haven’t watched it yet) and as someone who’s never been anyones #1 person it’s honestly just upsetting. I know there’s one more season to fix things but that’s not for another like 3 years

no honestly babe you’re completely right. i hoped at least that with this season we’d get something that felt more like season 2 byler, even if they didn’t end up canon. mike wheelers entire fucking character arc for two seasons straight revolved around being will’s best friend. he was DISTRAUGHT over needing to find him and then save him. and then. obviously season three happened and their relationship has been kind of downhill since then

but their scenes in the middle portion of vol. 1 really did make me hopeful that even if byler wasn’t going to be canon we’d at least get their friendship back. and we didn’t. what we got instead was will’s romantic love for mike being used as a device to further advance mileven’s relationship, to smooth out the fucking cracks in their perfect power couple for the show. and it’s bullshit. if they weren’t going to make byler canon, there was no need tor will to even have feelings for mike. the sad gay guy has a crush on his straight best friend trope is so tired and honestly i am exhausted of seeing gay characters sad! they could’ve shown that will was gay through other ways and KEPT his friendship w mike exactly how it was in season two. with eleven being important to mike, sure, but at his core?? will was his favourite person

i just think it sucks actually that mike wheeler has been will byers absolute favourite person since the day that he met him and he had to listen to mike say that his life felt like it started the day he met eleven. completely implying that nothing else pre eleven matters and that his lifelong friendship w will and lucas and dustin means NOTHING to him. idk why they have transformed mike wheeler, the protagonist of the show, into nothing more than eleven’s boyfriend. and they’ve also turned will, who the ENTIRE show revolved around for two seasons straight into nothing more than mike’s pining gay best friend who occasionally acts as a sensor for vecna/the mind flayer

honestly yeah there is another season to fix this but after the amount of fucking queer baiting they’ve done this season idek if i’m interested. i think the only way they can sort of. redeem this in my eyes is by making byler canon. otherwise what was the point of all of will’s mike centric plot. what was the point of mike being the worlds worst friend for two seasons straight. like i KNOW i’ve said this as a joke before but honestly mike wheeler is either the worlds worst friend OR he’s queer there’s only two ways to view his character. and after seeing s2 mike cry and say that the BEST THING HE EVER DID WAS BECOME WILL BYER’S FRIEND i refuse to think he’s a bad friend

ALSO that’s another thing that has really upset me. mike in s2 saying that meeting will and becoming his best friend was the BEST decision he ever made vs mike in s4 saying that his life started the day that he met eleven in the woods and that he could never imagine not having her in his life and that he fell in love with her the minute he saw her. like. it’s all bullshit actually

[kaypeace21]

Things that you think might be about Will and Lonnie,, could easily be about El and Dr Brenner.. I mean this is the "El show" after all and if Will's character was really THAT important don't you think they would have given him a good storyline in S3 instead of giving him like,, 2 dialogues?

 I’ve received this question over 20 times (despite answering this same question multiple times in the past).  I love El- but can milevens and El stans who make literally everything (and I mean EVERYTHING about her ) just stop with this talking point XD . I literally saw someone say Lonnie coming back in s4 will revolve around El’s plot line (instead of y’know the characters who actually have a history with him!!!) . Just stop 😂. Sorry , I’ve answered this specific question multiple times!!!

And I’m tired of repeating myself.OVER AND OVER. (pics from past posts)

They gave the fans “everything they wanted” (by showing how bad their ideas are- ie ships , evil russians, el is the ‘chosen one’ who is over reliant on Mike . And is the chosen one despite it creating plot holes ) all while still forwarding the narrative.  And still furthering the DID plot line. El being the ‘chosen one ‘ -the mf was supposedly after since s1 creates so many plot holes. Aka mf chased and possessed Will at school, when El was also at the school at the same time as Will/mf. But he ignored her at school, and the whole year he stalked Will . And he even said he wanted to kill everyone but Will last season -to supposedly wanting to kill everyone including Will. There’s a reason for this too I’ve already discussed (in the DID link).They also made season 3 which they equated to  new coke- the season that magically made all about her . Which has A LOT  of symbolism

El being the “chosen one” and shifting focus away from Will /the famillal love of the Byers is what “going away from the original formula “ was! s1-s2 everyone teamed up to save the missing /possessed Will. And the Byers family was always the heart of the story. S3 was essentially- lets push Will to the side make it all about El, not do any team work cause we’ll all over rely on El to be the ‘chosen one’  until she loses her powers. (And then only team up when she loses her powers.) El doesn’t save the day, all 33  townspeople died (she couldn’t save any of them), the characters all had to save her in the end, and she couldn’t even face the monster without losing her powers . She’s not the ‘chosen one’. The s4 video store even has a poster of “the coco cola boy” (an anti coke /anti corporation/anti American imperialist movie). A hint they’re returning to the original formula- and secretly didn’t like the surface level tropes of s3 (especially cause most people missed the hidden themes behind them) . I already talked about how s3 had hidden anti-corporatist/anti-capitalistic themes, and purposely subverted romantic expectations- and dissed El being the chosen one -here -in more detail .

Even the season 3 poster teased how s3 looses the core of the show by making it ALL ABOUT El! Instead of El, Mike, and Will remaining the tri-protagonists (they were in s1-2) ! THIS ISN’T THE “ EL SHOW”- IT NEVER WAS! It’s ALWAYS  been an ensemble cast of characters!

* Also, regardless of brenner coming back and being associated in the kids going missing in Hawkins. ya’ll look ridiculous when you act like Will isn’t an important character (we get it you hate him). Doesn’t change the fact, the show’s creators make “stranger things day’ all about him (on social media every year)! Or the fact,the show’s first 2 seasons wouldn’t even exist without him. Just stop... and actually bother rewatching the show , so you can see the obvious fact that MANY of the other characters , not just El or even Will, are important (and that this isn’t the “El-show”).

[jonny-byerss]

Why Jancy Is Endgame

So, recently, I’ve seen quite a bit of Jancy hate which I literally don’t understand, because how can you look at Jancy and think “Wow, I hate them”...like, it genuinely baffles me that people don’t ship Jancy, like how? They have SO MUCH CHEMISTRY it’s unreal. In all three seasons, it’s evident that there’s something more between them than just “monster hunting partners”. So, recently, I have been asking multiple people including my irl friends why they think Jancy is endgame and this is what I’ve come up with.

1.) The Duffers Aren’t Dumb

Even though quite a bit of people are disappointed with the way they’ve taken their writing, you have to admit one thing: they aren’t dumb. They’ve been setting Jancy up to be canon since S1, and fans have been rooting for them to get together since S1. It’s not until Steve’s turn-around that people started hating on Jancy.

Jancy is definitely more popular than Stancy for sure. To a majority of fans, even if Jancy isn’t their favorite Stranger Things ship, they still at least ship it. And, with the exception of hardcore Steve stans, most people who like Steve as a character admit that Jonathan and Nancy fit better together than Steve and Nancy ever did. We know the Duffers like to give in to what a majority of fans want, and Jancy seems to be what a majority of fans want.

There’s 3 core ships that the Duffers have been building up since S1. Those are Jopper, Jancy, and Mileven. It’s obvious in S1 that these ships are going to become canon eventually, and they’re also the three core ships of the show that people love. They also tend to focus on these three relationships quite a bit in their writing, with the majority of major relationship moments being with these three ships, especially Mileven. It’s obvious they want us to root for these ships.

The main point I’m trying to make is the Duffers have been setting Jancy up to be canon since S1. They have shown us many moments in all three seasons that show us just how much chemistry Jancy has. From the bed scene in S1, to the hallway scene in S2, they’re obviously trying to show us that Jancy is meant to get together.

Not only that, but Jancy was ACTUALLY supposed to be canon in S1. I don’t know how many people know this, but Steve was supposed to die in S1, and Jancy was supposed to get together. The writers liked Joe Keery so they decided they needed to find a way to keep him on the show. It’s clear to me that the writers themselves are rooting for Jancy, which means that they want us to root for Jancy too.

I’m not here to say how the Duffers should write the next seasons, and I myself don’t know what happens in the future seasons, but I do see the clues that the Duffers have given us since S1 and I also believe that the Duffers know what they’re doing. They know what the majority of fans want and it’s clear to me that they want us to root for Jancy, so obviously they’re gonna keep them together.

2.) THAT Ending Scene In S3

A lot of people that say “Jancy has no chemistry” clearly have not seen their last scene in S3. To me, that scene is a promise. A promise to each other and to us that Jancy is in it for each other.

In this scene, you can see that they are so painfully in love. They don’t want to leave each other. You can tell it breaks both of their hearts that they have to separate for a bit.

I could do a whole analysis of this scene, and I just might do that later, but to me, what they’re saying to each other is “We’ve been through so much together, why can’t we go through a little more?”

Sure, long-distance would be harder in the 80s, but I do believe that their love is strong enough to last. They clearly both love each other very much. And there’s always phone calls and letters and visiting each other on breaks.

When thinking of the LDRs that the Byers move caused, lots of people think of Mileven, but Jancy is actually way more likely to be endgame than Mileven at this point. We don’t know what happens in future seasons or if the Byers eventually move back, but we do know that Jonathan and Nancy are seniors in high school and almost 18. Mike and Eleven are barely starting high school and have more time to be apart than Jancy does. Once Jancy graduates, they can do whatever they want. Sure, one could say that Jonathan might feel an obligation to stay with his family, but we also know that he has an ambition for NYU. We have no idea what Nancy wants. I can honestly see her go to college for journalism or something similar. What’s to stop her from going to NYU or somewhere in NY with Jonathan?

We don’t know what the Duffers have in store for Jancy’s future, but I trust that they can give Jancy the perfect ending they deserve. That scene in S3 has so much underlying meaning to it, like the fact that the song that play in the background during it is called “You’re a Fighter”. I have a whole different thing planned on analyzing that scene, and I’ll post that later, but basically, with that scene, to me, the Duffers are trying to say “They’re in this for each other. They’re so in love that they’re going to make it work”

3) They are the most mature relationship on the show

I’ve seen quite a few people say that the argument they had in S3 is “proof they are incompatible” but that is simply not true. In fact, if anything, it shows how they are exactly the opposite. Here’s why.

So, every couple fights. It’s the ability to work through a fight and come out stronger and more understanding that shows just how committed a couple is to each other. Jonathan and Nancy are a prime example of this.

Jonathan and Nancy come from different backgrounds. This argument of “I’m poor” and “People are being sexist towards me” is a very adult argument. I mean, most teenage couples you see have fights about jealousy-type crap. Jancy’s fight is a fight that adults would have. That’s why I believe they are a very mature couple.

Not only that, but the key thing to remember is that they both admitted that they felt bad for what they said and apologized, reaffirming their commitment to each other. This is a fight that they can grow from as a result. Because they apologized and acknowledged their wrong-doings, they have a better foundation for understanding each other in the future and they can grow as a couple. This can also give them a perspective on life that maybe they didn’t think about before.

Honestly, Jancy has been through a lot crap together so they kind of have to be mature. Plus, Jonathan himself had to grow up faster than most children, which gives him a perspective on life that he most likely passed on to Nancy.

This is why I believe Jancy is the most mature couple. Instead of letting their fight get the best of them, they acknowledged their wrong-doings and became more understanding of each other as a result. It takes real maturity to do something like that.

The reason I compare them to the other couples is because, look at Mileven’s fight in S3. It seems sort of childish compared to Jancy’s. And Lumax has broken up 5 times apparently. And Jopper, gosh, they have a lot of issues to work out. Jancy seems to have effectively worked out their differences and become stronger as a result.

Charlie Heaton (Jonathan) himself said that when he first read the S3 script, he thought that Jancy seemed like a married couple, which I think says a lot about their relationship. They are so mature and comfortable with each other like that. He also said this, which basically sums up what I said, here:

4) They are more than just “shared trauma”

I’ve seen a lot of people criticize Jancy by saying stuff like “Shared trauma isn’t a good foundation for a relationship”, but I’m about to prove why that’s bullcrap, because Jancy is more than their shared trauma.

So, shared trauma seems to be what the writers like to point out about their relationship. In the ending scene in S3, Jonathan tells Nancy “We’ve got shared trauma”. He is referring to what Murray said to them in S2 when he was telling them why they should get together. Just because “shared trauma” is what Murray emphasized, doesn’t mean it’s their only foundation.

I’d quickly like to point out though, that shared trauma is actually a real life relationship trope and there are real-life couples founded on this. But, I’d also like to point out that Jancy’s trauma isn’t just any trauma. They didn’t just fight in Vietnam together or something, like it’s not every day your loved one gets kidnapped by an otherworldly demon.

I think the main emphasis that the show is focusing on when they say “shared trauma” is the scars. I mean, when Jonathan said that line in S3, he was touching Nancy’s scar that he shares with her. They are the only two people with those matching scars. Those scars are something that unites them and reminds them of the past they share.

Their “trauma” isn’t just how they met either. I mean, they obviously knew each other before the events of S1. Their brothers are best friends. I’m not saying they were friends or anything, but they were definitely acquaintances.

Their trauma is how they grew closer. I mean, before their first traumatic experience, they seemed to be getting on each other’s nerves a bit. It’s not until Nancy almost became Demogorgon lunch that they started realizing they could trust each other. After that, they realized they worked well together and they may or may not have fallen in love.

Also, let’s not forget all the flirting they did before their traumatic experience. The darkroom, even the target practice scene.

I think the key thing to remember with their trauma though is that, because they both went through similar experiences, they understand each other in that way. I mean, part of Stancy breaking up was because Steve didn’t realize the trauma she was going through and didn’t understand fully how to help her. Jonathan understood in a way what she was feeling because he went through something similar.

And yeah, shared trauma might not be a good foundation, because obviously there’s other things to consider in a relationship, but if there’s anything S3 showed us it’s that Jancy knows how to communicate and work through their problems, so clearly that’s not an issue for them.

5) The love triangle is done

I’ve seen some online articles that say things like “Now that Jonathan is gone, Nancy will go back with Steve”. I’ve even heard people say “Nancy will go with Robin”. Both of those are bullcrap.

First of all, Stancy’s arc is finished. S2 showed us how incompatible they were by showing how Steve hasn’t been a good support system for Nancy and showing that Nancy no longer loved Steve. Nancy obviously felt something more for Jonathan, who could support her in a better way than Steve could, because Jonathan had similar experiences. After they broke up, they were done. And when Jonathan and Nancy kissed the love triangle was over. It was solved.

I think most of the fans can agree that they are glad the love triangle was solved, that way Nancy’s story can be about more than just boys. It would be stupid for the Duffers to bring it back and it would ruin every ounce of character development that Steve and Nancy have gone through. And I am confident that the Duffers aren’t stupid.

Part of Steve’s S2 arc is getting over Nancy and accepting that she no longer loves him and even finding a friend in Dustin. Part of Nancy’s arc in S2 was realizing she should embrace that girl she was for a week in November 1983. She gets justice for Barb and even embraces her feelings for the school outcast. Nancy and Steve can still be friends, and even Jonathan and Steve, but that’s it. Nothing more. It’s been decided that Nancy doesn’t love Steve, she loves Jonathan. Even if Jonathan is far away, it’s possible to love him from a distance.

And about Robin and Nancy, it’s also highly unlikely. Again, I think most fans are tired of Nancy’s love life and love triangle and are glad it’s over. Adding Robin to the mix would make it even more complicated.

First of all, it’s not canon that Nancy is bisexual. The only canon LGBT character is Robin. It is implied that Will may be as well, but nothing has been confirmed.

I can see Robin and Nancy being good friends, but Robin did call her a priss in S3 and also, it’s like an unspoken rule in best-friendship that you don’t date their exes. Robin and Steve are best friends. This would break that rule.

I do know, based on leaked photos, Nancy and Robin most likely work together (maybe even with Steve) in S4. I believe, however, that the relationship is fully platonic. It would be nice for Nancy to have a friend that’s a girl after her loss of Barb, and Robin is a good person and would be a great friend for Nancy. I also believe, however, that Nancy is 100% dedicated to Jonathan (based on the last scene in S3) and will only be working with Robin (and maybe Steve) because they know something that would be useful.

Basically, what I’m trying to say is: Nancy’s love life arc has ended. It’s been decided that Nancy doesn’t love Steve and he can’t give her what she wants. And I think most Ronance shippers are just trolls, tbh. No one seems really serious about any Nancy and Robin relationship that’s anything more than platonic.

———————

And I think that about sums up why I believe Jancy is endgame. Jonathan and Nancy clearly love and care for each other very much as shown in all three seasons. Plus, there’s the fact that THEIR ACTORS ARE LITERALLY DATING IN REAL LIFE! (Seriously both Jancy and Natarlie are relationship goals).

I am extremely confident that even if Jancy does break up at some point, it won’t be for long and they’ll somehow find their way back to each other because they are soulmates. That is a guarantee. I have full confidence that the Duffers can give their relationship the perfect ending they deserve. I’d like to hear your guys’ feedback (please try to keep negativity away). Do you believe Jancy is endgame?

And here’s proof that Jancy loves each other:

[hawkinssnowball]

i should start this off by saying that i dont believe any of these are for sure true!! but i can say which ones i think are likely predictions / which ones i want to happen hehe

the whole mike & el & will tension seems entirely plausible, i can see mike being upset with her, less for focusing on max and more for not really responding at all to his monologue, mike will probably want his relationship and therefore (nonexistent) straightness to be reaffirmed lol

joyce being injured is juicy and i hope that's real, jopper's gonna need something to do

highly doubt a mind flayer return except for in flashbacks / references, the return of the s2 tunnels does seem plausible though

also doubt the dragon thing but i'd be pleasantly surprised if that did end up happening

i really do hope max's letters get read, otherwise there wasn't a whole lot of a point setting them up in s4

the whole "vecna has a plan that requires will / will was taken for a reason" is vague enough to be guaranteed true. the time part is probably not gonna use actual time travel but something in the upside down like how it was stuck at '83

core party bonding especially w/dustin talking about eddie is a necessity for me and also vague enough to be almost guaranteed.

would love a scott clarke return, as i said in the replies (this is sideblog for user tamsong)

elumax moments are also so necessary for me

if another character is indeed hinted to be bi i hope it's el

hopper-byers plotline again vague enough to be almost guaranteed, same with rockie romantic moments and jancy emotional conversation

should i stay or should i got HAS to make a comeback and i will be. frothing at the mouth

3/4 of scoops troop having a storyline - highly likely. i assume it'll be steve robin and erica b/c i want dustin to be with the core party

argyle heroic moment - unlikely to me sadly, unless we have solid proof eduardo franco is coming back? he seemed to only be used as comedic relief and a plot device for s4

robin and vickie's relationship is important to defeating vecna - unlikely to me, unless it's for a very short moment

byler has an important emotional scene that was supposed to be filmed in may: the specific month is really standing out here, so it seems likely because of that?? it tracks with other information we know though

YESSSSS FIRST FAKE ST5 LEAKS ARE IN !!!!!

[baldrambo]

On Joyce Byers....

Joyce Byers is a bad ass.  So why is she handled with kid gloves by everyone?  This is a bit of a companion discussion to my Hopper post from a few weeks ago. Like my prior meta, I will discuss what I believe to be truths about Joyce and her arc, which don’t appear to be aligned with most analyses of her character that I’ve seen elsewhere. I will make 5 assertions and address each of them below the cut because (as per the norm) this got really long and I am not trying to clog up people’s dashboards.

Assertion 1: We have no canon evidence that Lonnie was physically abusive and making Joyce his victim does a disservice to her characterization

Assertion 2: What Bob represented to Joyce was more important to her arc than Bob himself (aka Bob/Joyce were not really a good match)

Assertion 3: Making fun of/being frustrated by Joyce’s magnet obsession misses the point of her arc in S3, which was about her pro-activity rather than reactivity

Assertion 4: Joyce inappropriately attempts to compartmentalize Hopper (aka Joyce needs to let Lonnie and Bob go if she’s to ever move on)

Assertion 5: Joyce is not a delicate cinnamon roll in need of our protection she is a BAMF and should be treated as such.

Assertion 1:

Our first introduction to Joyce is as a small, mousy, anxious, chain-smoking single mom who….can’t find her keys.  And not because she is is careless. She has literally SO much on her plate at any given moment that the location of her keys is trivial until it’s not.  She works long hours at a low-wage job to support her boys.  She really has no life outside of work, paying bills, and cleaning house.  Wash, rinse, repeat.  She is just barely scraping by. 

And yet we learn through flashbacks fairly quickly after Will’s disappearance that despite working long hours, despite the constant stress….she still manages to find time to parent her boys.  And not just be any old parent, mind you.  Joyce Byers is a good parent.  When Will is out in Castle Byers she doesn’t just barge in.  She respects his personal space, remembers a unique nerdy password, and waits for him to tell her that she can enter.  She then trusts his judgment when he says that he can handle watching Poltergeist. This is later juxtaposed by the scene in Nancy’s bedroom with Jonathan where Karen attempts to enter the bedroom after Nancy has had to lock it.  Jonathan looks at Nancy, a little shocked, and says “she doesn’t knock?” Which is weird to him, of course, because Joyce would always knock.  Now lets contrast Joyce, who is Mother of the Year, with Lonnie Byers who is a Grade A Piece of Shit™. He abandoned the family and hasn’t seen them in years.  And when he was around, he spent his time being a deadbeat, calling his son a faggot, and trying to force his boys into being “manlier” and more mainstream.

We first meet Lonnie in 1x2 when Jonathan drives out to Indianapolis to confirm that Will is in fact, not with his father.  When Lonnie’s girlfriend answers the door, Jonathan pushes past her and into the home, shouting for his brother.  Lonnie then comes in from outside, grabs Jonathan, and pushes him up against a wall.  Only then does he realize it’s his son.  Lonnie hadn’t seen Jonathan in so long that he almost didn’t recognize him, and initially thought him an intruder. Jonathan angrily shoves Lonnie back, who steps back and laughs. Notably, Jonathan does not appear to fear Lonnie and Lonnie makes no attempt to otherwise assert any other type of physical control over Jonathan. Lonnie talks to him like he’s an adult.

When Lonnie returns in 1x5 for Will’s funeral, he is an immediate negative influence who has Joyce up drinking all night, calls her crazy, and starts sniping at Jonathan about some stupid poster in his bedroom being inappropriate.  However, there is no real confrontation until Joyce finds the flyer in his belongings and realizes he is attempting to collect on Will’s “death.”  She screams at Lonnie and holds her ground when he shouts back.  She shoves him. She gets in his face and throws his bag at him.  And then little 5��2 Joyce Byers successfully throws a grown ass man out of her house.  He never raises a hand to her.

This is not a Lonnie Byers apology piece.  Lonnie Byers is a shitty dad, shitty partner, shitty person.  I think an entirely separate piece could be written on the emotional abuse of his boys (although in the 80′s Midwest much of that would be considered normal, but that’s another essay).  But there is nothing to suggest that Lonnie ever hit them, or Joyce.  If the Duffers wanted Lonnie to be physically abusive, they would make it obvious, no?

The most clear example of this? Neil Hargrove. When he enters Billy’s bedroom in 2x8, he has complete control.  Over Billy, his wife, the conversation.  He overtly strikes Billy, humiliates him, and it’s clear that Billy fears him.  Susan Hargrove also fears him, and she stands in the background for the entire confrontation, avoiding eye contact, saying nothing.  The only time she attempts to intercede is to diffuse the situation, diffuse Neil, when he commands that Billy apologize and quickly shuts up when it’s clear her efforts didn’t work.  She then exits the room, first allowing him to leave the room before her. The dynamics here are light years from Joyce/Lonnie/Jonathan.

Ok so.  Why am I bringing all of this up? Because, imo, turning Lonnie into a physical abuser cuts at the heart of Joyce’s characterization.  Joyce Byers is a fighter.  That’s what Bob loved about her.  “You fight back,” he told her, in a somewhat awestruck voice.  Joyce is not a Susan Hargrove. None of this is to suggest that Susan is to blame for what she has gone through, or that somehow Joyce is better for not being like her. I contrast them because the Duffer brothers do. Joyce will steamroll anyone and anything that gets in her way to protect her boys.  If she’s on a mission….if she is trying to save someone…watch out.  Making Lonnie a physical abuser so he can be a plot device, or because it makes it easier to hate and villainize him upsets the core of Joyce’s character. And it changes the entire show.

Assertion 2:

Much of Joyce’s inner strength shines through in S2.  When S2 begins, Joyce can’t leave Will’s side and still worries about him incessantly.  She’s overbearing and “struggles to function” whenever she is not with him.  She is forced to re-live the horrors of what her and her family went through every time she goes to Hawkins Lab and worse…she has to place her trust in the very same people who nearly ripped her family apart.  Yet, she doesn’t give up, she soldiers on for Jonathan and Will.  But so much like S1, S2 Joyce is helpless.  She is unable to control what is happening around her.  The events of S1-S2 make her reactionary, she gets dragged along by the plot instead of driving the plot.

But there is one bright spot of happiness for her…..Bob.  He is the exact opposite of Lonnie in every way.  He is kind, thoughtful, hardworking, honest, and trustworthy.  He put Joyce first, he tried to bond with and be a parent to Will and Jonathan. And he was willing to jump in to the fray when he had no idea what was going on to save her, save everyone despite being absolutely terrified.  Bob Newby. Superhero.

There are some early warning signs that perhaps….we as the audience are not supposed to view this as the perfect match? Jonathan, in particular, doesn’t seem to approve at all, in fact, it downright confuses him.  He confides in Will that he doesn’t understand what Joyce sees in him and later gets agitated when he learns that Bob has stayed the night.  Hopper, too, seems to struggle with it. And while a lot of that can probably be chalked up to the early signs of jealousy, his forced “I’m happy for you” appears to be at least somewhat tied to his inability to take her dating “Bob the Brain” seriously.  Why drop all these hints if it doesn’t mean anything?

It’s the conversation she has with Bob in 2x2 on Halloween that really cements Joyce’s arc and Bob’s central purpose.  While they’re dancing to Kenny Rogers, he starts prattling on about moving to Maine.  He’s in love with her, he knows being in Hawkins is hard for her.  So why not start over again and be a family? “We aren’t a normal family.” She tells Bob.  His response is simple: “It could be.” And that moment plants that seed for Joyce.  What if they COULD be a happy, nuclear family?  What if they COULD leave all that trauma behind them and finally find safety and security?  She starts thinking on it so much that by the end of S2 when Bob brings it up again, she’s all but ready. And the Duffers have confirmed, if Bob had survived she would have gone with him to Maine.

But here’s the thing: what if someone else besides Bob had planted the idea in her head? Would she have wanted it any less?  Or consider, was it really Bob himself that drove her desire, or was it always lying dormant there waiting to be activated?  If she had started dating Hopper after S1 instead and HE had been the one to make the suggestion, would she have desired it any less?  Did she really love Bob himself, or the idea of him?

It’s easy to romanticize Bob because he seemed perfect, he represented the happy ending that Joyce wants, that WE WANT for her, but here’s the thing.  There is no perfect guy.  You can’t move a few states away and leave behind Demogorgons and another dimension that nearly killed your son.  That stays with you wherever you go, and you have to face it and deal with it.  You can’t run away from trauma, and Joyce has to realize this.  Joyce is chasing a mirage. Perhaps Bob was kind of a mirage, too. 

Assertion 3:.

The Joyce we see at the end of s2 seems….like she’s going to be okay.  She has her boys, Hopper’s friendship.  She’s lost Bob but the Gate is closed now, everyone is safe (or so everyone thinks).  But then there’s S3 Joyce.  She’s lonely, isolated, sad, discontent, and restless.  The kids are trying to move on from the events of S1-S2.  But she’s unable to.  She’s unable to move on from Bob, from her fear that her boys could still be in danger, from the feeling that something is going to go horribly wrong again and she won’t be able to stop it. 

So Joyce preemptively reshapes her arc.  She decides she is going to put her own house on the market.  Bob may not be coming with her but goddammit she is going to move anyway and find safety somewhere else.  When she notices the magnets fall off the fridge she is not going to wait and see what happens, SHE is going to go research magnets and solenoids and weird science stuff she doesn’t understand and SHE is going to figure it out and SHE is going bring it to Hopper before shit hits the fan.  And when they call the military, SHE is not going to wait around for them to show up and save her kids.  She’s going to take action herself.

Thus, Joyce is driving much of the plot in S3, rather than being dragged along by the plot as she was in S1-S2.  She is not focusing all of her time and energy on Will and his safety, and reacting to where he is and what he’s doing, she is able to focus on Hopper, El, the Party, the bigger picture.  Will kept her focus narrowed, magnets expanded them.

And perhaps most significantly, the magnet obsession is what ultimately saved the day.  Joyce is the hero of S3.  Think about who saved the day in S1-S2.  Who were the heroes?  El and Hopper.  In S1, El sacrificed herself to kill the Demogorgon and save the Party and Hopper resuscitated Will.  In S2, El and Hopper closed the Gate.  In S3, who saved the day? El?  She had no power.  She wasn’t even the one fighting the Meat Flayer. Hopper?  He was trapped on the platform.  Who closed the Gate and killed the “Meat Flayer?”  Joyce.  By herself. This ended the threat, this stopped the “Meat Flayer,” this saved El and the Party.

I think it’s easy to miss all of this due to the tonal shift in S3, which added some silliness to the plot lines that didn’t exist in S1-S2.  On the surface, obsessing about magnets instead of your son seems ridiculous.  But this shift gave Joyce’s character a chance to breathe, a chance to grapple with her own feelings, what she wants, it gave her a chance to just be Joyce instead of Mom™.  So S3 is about her, instead of what is happening to her. 

And i think, ultimately, this tonal shift in S3 is what allowed that to happen.  If the circumstances in S3 were the same as S1-S2, then the Duffers wouldn’t have had this freedom.  If we want to see Joyce grow as a character, there has to be time and energy spent on her away from her kids and away from the same closed loop of S1-S2. Which brings me to my next point.

Assertion 4:

Jopper.  You can’t expect me to write this long ass meta on Joyce Byers and not talk about Hopper, right?

In early S3 there is obviously a marked shift in her relationship with Hopper.  There are no longer secrets (El) or other relationships (Bob) that they can use to hold each other at arm’s length anymore.  There are no other adults in town now who understand what they’ve been through.  Joyce is effectively co-parenting El with Hopper and it’s clear that he not only asks her for advice often but that they spend a lot of time together.  This did not happen between 1 and 2.  It’s made fairly clear upfront that Hopper is hopelessly in love with her, but what of Joyce?  She’s more difficult to read.  And this is due in large part to the fact that she is more complicated than Hopper and her feelings are more complicated than his.

I am not here to argue about whether I think Joyce loves Hopper.  This entire analysis is based on the assumption that she does because I think the Duffers and Winona have given us more than enough to go on to draw that conclusion.  What I AM here to argue, however, is that Joyce is still grappling with what she wants and (inappropriately so) is attempting to compartmentalize Hopper.

Adult relationships are complicated and particularly for a character like Joyce, who has been to Hell and back a few times, there is added complexity that has to be dealt with and worked through.  She’s been in prior relationships before.  She knows what it’s like to be in love and she’s felt the pain and grief that comes along with it.  She’s been divorced already, had a spouse that abandoned her, children  to prioritize over her own love life, and trauma stemming both from the events of 1983-1985 and separate from it.  Joyce, especially, is fresh off the train of losing a love interest who she got close to very quickly.  You can imagine her hesitation about leaping forwards again with someone else who could die.

There’s your backdrop for Joyce in S3.  Throw a healthy dollop of she has feelings for Hopper and then point blank ask her: “What do you want, Joyce?”  She could probably tell you that she wants to feel safe again.  That she wants to be free of the pain and grief of losing Bob and what happened in S1-S2.  If you really can get her to open up (or if you are a mind reader like Murray) you would also find out that she is still holding onto that desire to have a normal, happy family which includes a “nice guy to settle down with.”  The thing about Hopper is that he fulfills all of this for her, just messily.  Joyce is still looking for that coloring book of life to be filled in by an artist (Bob). Hopper fills it in like a 3 year old with disorganized scribbles that cover the picture but can’t quite stay in the lines.  Lonnie is easy: he never even filled in the lines to begin with.

Hopper shares personality traits with both Bob and Lonnie.  Like Bob, he makes her feel safe, she can trust him, she knows he cares about her, feels more than friendship for her.  But he’s also brash and loud and argumentative and after spending a decade of her life screaming with Lonnie….she doesn’t want that again.  He probably at times DOES “remind her of a bad relationship,” but Hopper is not Lonnie.  He respects her, treats her like an equal, trusts her judgment. But she can’t escape the constant comparisons.

And what I’ve seen from a lot of the fandom are the same attempts to shove Hopper into the “Lonnie” box or the “Bob” box that Joyce keeps trying to do.  S1-S2 Hopper is in the “Bob” box.  We like S1-S2 Hopper. But S3 Hopper, man.  He is in the “Lonnie” box.  He yells and stamps his feet.  This Hopper isn’t “good enough” for Joyce.

But here’s my radical proposition: Hopper IS good enough for Joyce if he is who she wants.  And he is what she wants.  But she needs to let Lonnie and Bob go first.

Lonnie and Bob still have a hold on her and if she is going to be able to take that leap forward with Hopper she needs to put their ghosts to rest.  She couldn’t save Bob, but maybe she can save Hopper.  Maybe Hopper isn’t perfect and has a temper, but that is ok because he loves her and respects her unlike Lonnie. I think if we see Joyce work through this in S4 and join her on her journey of making the decision to be with Hop and making that choice FOR HERSELF rather than the plot or some other force making that decision for her, the payout is gonna be huge.

Assertion 5:

Finally, I wanted to touch on the common theme of this whole analysis: that despite this inner strength, despite the growth and change her character has undergone, she is still largely handled by the ST fandom with kid gloves.  Like she is someone that can’t take care of herself, and who we need to step in and defend and protect against….the world.  Here are a few examples I’ve seen over and over:

1) Mischaracterizing S3 Hopper as an “abuser” that Joyce needs “protection” from, much like she needed “protection” from Lonnie. 

2) Attempting to turn Jonathan into her protector/her keeper.  

3) Defending her when she is in the wrong because she is Mom™ (see i.e. standing Hopper up for their date and being non-apologetic about it.)

4) Analyzing “what is best for Joyce” without thinking about her canon feelings or what SHE wants

As I dissected above, Joyce never needed protection from Lonnie. She doesn’t need protection from Hopper. Or anyone.  She doesn’t need Jonathan stepping in for her and she does not need us the fandom, to decide FOR her what she wants and what she can and cannot do.  All this does is, ultimately, build her arc around men and strip her of her agency as a character.

All the canon evidence suggests that she is a bad ass.  She curb stomps assholes on the regular and saves the day, multiple times.  So why is it next to impossible to find any discussion of Joyce that doesn’t involve complaints of what man (Duffer or otherwise) is wronging her at any moment?  Is it because it’s just easier to pidgeonhole characters, particularly female characters, into villain/oppressor and “the good guy?”  Because if we open her up into complexity outside of being our cinnamon roll mom we worry she could disappoint us? Because we cannot accept that a good female character doesn’t need protection?  What happens if Joyce is just a complex person who is both mom and badass? Focused on her kids and herself? Deserving of her own life and respect for her autonomy? Is both selfish and selfless?

Joyce, imo, has one of the most compelling arcs on the entire show.  We are introduced to her as a Mom who is barely holding it together already and then loses her son, sending her into a spiral that her inner strength alone carries her through.  After nearly losing her kid again, she loses her boyfriend horrifically, and just when she thinks they may have finally escaped it all permanently she has to single-handedly close the Gate, torching the only other man she loves in the process. So she packs her shit up and moves her family away from the danger.  She goes from the most reactive character on the show to, perhaps, the most proactive one.  

She may not have “powers,” she may not be able to effectively wield a gun, but she can knee an asshole in the crotch and that makes her a hero to me. I say let her be everything she is, allow her to explore her own wants even if they are imperfect, let her make mistakes and stand up for and protect herself, and let her be her own person outside of the character arcs of other male characters.

Andddddd end scene.

[renee-walker]

You know who I ship you with. As for an ask, top 3 Stranger Things characters.

I do know:)

And wow omg, top three Stranger Things characters? I LOVE EVERYONE IN THIS BAR. (Except Billy. Billy can choke.) But okay srsly.

1. Joyce Byers. Like, if you don’t love Joyce Byers, it is clear that you need to rethink your life choices. She and I are so different in so many ways, but my entire *self* feels her ferocious devotion to her children and the level of anxiety she deals with all the time. I only agreed to watch S1 after I knew that Will comes back, because otherwise I would never have been able to handle it. She’s just a rockstar to me for so many reasons, and honestly while my shippy self wants all the Joyce and Hopper next season, I also without question want more Joyce and Eleven, because the little flashes of that relationship we’ve gotten have given me soooo many feelings. Hopper can be her dad, but she’s never had a mother figure in her life at all.

2. Jim Hopper. And honestly, this is only an S2 development. I loved him in S1, but he wouldn’t have made my top three. Which isn’t to say that he didn’t fuck up this season, because wow he most definitely did when he lost it with El and called her a brat. It’s strange — Hopper isn’t really the type of character I usually go for. But everything about Sarah’s death and the way he’s clearly been trying to handle the fallout from that with every coping mechanism *except* healthy ones, idk it just really gets to me. And as you’re well aware from my endless reblogs, the created family between him and Eleven is just my undoing. Give me ALL of it. Plus, I realize he shouldn’t get bonus points for this, but it’s nice to see Hopper genuinely loving Joyce enough that he’s happy to see her happy with another man.

3. Eleven. I know it’s the most cliche answer but I just can’t help it. Everyone has their character weaknesses and one of mine will always be characters who have been treated horribly for most/all of their lives and still choose to be good and soft and kind anyway. And of course Eleven is the epitome of this kind of character. I’m so enjoying watching her learn to accept her power and to channel it in ways that are constructive. I just effing love her.

Added note: All of these characters are white, and this bugs me. I’m beyond glad that we got to see Lucas’s family this season, and one of my hopes for S3 is both way more Lucas and omg, way more Erica) but also that the show chooses to cast non-white actors in new roles. I love Max so much now, but I genuinely wish the show had taken the opportunity to give that role to someone who isn’t white, given that their core cast of kids was already almost all white. /digression