#why is Tim doing this? I don't know. It's up for interpretation

[abisalli]

A long overdue ko-fi for the dear @darlinglissa !! Thank you for being so very patient with me <3 You get: Tim being an annoying little brother to Dick (because I've been reading a lot of 90s/early 2000s comics lately)

[acerikus]

Someone being extremely annoying in the replies of my flowey and clover gif and I'm running out of patience 😭

[brittlebutch]

a lot of people seem to use Entry #61 as 'proof' for the crux of the "Brian didn't care about Tim, he was Taking Advantage of Tim's conditions and Forcing him to work as part of totheark" thing, but honestly when you think about it there's no possible way Brian could have possibly orchestrated that series of events, like you almost have to interpret that as a baffling group of coincidences

[ghostbsuter]

Damian was 10 when he was shipped off to his father.

He was 10 when he finally decided enough was enough, packed his stuff, called Mara, and the ball went rolling.

The moment Talia left the mansion, the DNA test confirmed, and Bruce emotionally compromised, did he finally move.

He'd stared his father down, felt nothing when he stood up and mild annoyance bloomed when his father asked– demanded– where he was going.

"You're a fool if you believe I will stay here." He spat, eyening the man in disdain.

It became very apparent that Damian wasn't what Bruce thought he'd be, what Talia thought he was.

"Your mother entrusted me with your safety–"

"I don't need protection. Mother wouldn't care if I stayed or not." He blinks. "Where is the cave? I wish to use the computer, I have people to contact."

Reluctantly, Bruce shows him the way, questions of who and why, and the plans he apparently had were asked.

Damian answers with vague wordings and enough open spaces for interpretation. Words greatest detective, he can figure it out himself without damian spelling it out for him.

When they do arrive in the batcave, Tim Drake— Robin— was sitting at the computer.

Huffing, Damian shoved the entire chair away from the table, taking its place and started typing.

"W— hey! What—? Who?" Tim looked between Bruce and Damian, despite being sleep deprived his eyes caught on the similarities, mouth dry and mind calculating.

"Does Dick know?" Is all he asks, leaning back and watching the younger boy work.

"Not yet."

A heavy sigh.

"Silence," the boy huffs, annoyed. "I'll have to make a call."

Glaring daggers, he pulls out a old burner phone, pressing the single number saved inside and waits.

"Damian."

"Hello, brother."

('Oh. Did he have another?' Tim wonders, watching Batman's face, blank like a paper sheet. Nothing. It feels like all his efforts of bringing the man back were just flushed.)

—

Or in simpler words:

Danyal al Ghul, the first successor of the demons head, born with his twin Athanasia al Ghul, to be the future of the league.

They were reborn with their former memories, stuck in place, constantly watched and trained. Manipulated. Weaponized.

All for a man playing immortal.

They'd only started planning when two more children came into the picture, Damian and Mara Al Ghul.

Danyal now Daniel "Danny" and Athanasia now Eleanor "Ellie" Nightingale took matters into their own hands and separated to take the kids in and end this.

End the league. End the cycle of whatever this, this cult is, and take over.

In many universes, Ra's al Ghul does not die, always returns, wielding his people like mere weapons.

In this universe, Danyal al Ghul is acknowledged as a traitor, killer of the Demons head and Older Brother, borderline father even, to his tiny brother Damian al Ghul.

In this universe, he raises Damian instead of Talia, shows him the cracks of this careful manipulated picture and listens when Ellie tells of her travels to this tiny child with a sad sad fate.

In this universe, Ellie takes in their tiny cousin, shielding her from the cruel eyes of a man not worthy. She trains her, shows her the ropes and takes her along when she leaves.

In this universe, Damian al Ghul and Mara al Ghul live a good live, protected by the twins of old souls and have a somewhat normal if not very complicated childhood.

[batpham-discord-highlights]

A PSA for tagging DPxDC Content

This post will include:

The proper tags to use when posting

Why we use them and not the parent fandom tags

A chart of key words to help you filter

Image descriptions under the cut

We know we can't control who tags what, and how tumblr chooses to work, or not work, but these are just some general guidelines to help everyone find or block our content.

What DPxDC Tags should you use? 

General: dpxdc always

More Specific Tags: Batpham, dpxjl, dpxyj

For ALL ships please add “ship” after the ship name. For example: Dead Tired ship, Dead on Main ship, Double Edged Sword ship

What Tags should you NOT use?

Parent Fandom Tags: Danny Phantom, dp, Phandom, Phanart, Phanfic, DC Comics, DC Universe, dc, Batfamily, Batfam, Superfam 

Variations of General Tags: dp x dc, dcxdp, dc x dp, dp x jl, dp x yj, dp/dc, dc/dp, 

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Why is it important to tag separately?

dpxdc is a big crossover. The crossover fandom has been rapidly growing over the past year. The crossover fandom drowns out the original dp/danny phantom fandom by a lot, especially for people who may be interested in dpxdc but also want to enjoy regular phandom content. By not using the dp and danny phantom tags, it helps a lot to not drown out the main fandom's inhabitants and content. dpxdc as a fandom tends to pump out a lot of content (which is amazing), but that means that we need to be careful to not suffocate the main fandoms. "Why can't I tag the danny phantom or batfam main fandoms? it's a crossover" -- yeah, it is a crossover, but it's a crossover that is huge (especially in comparison to danny phantom) and dpxdc has taken over the main fandom tags. It's causing a lot of animosity and tension on both sides.

Additionally, the crossover (like most fandoms) comes with some common characterizations, tropes, aus, and concepts that tend to be interpretations that do not link back to the main fandom well. While fandoms come up with their own characterizations, tropes, aus, and concepts, it's important to know when a crossover fandom has existed long enough to establish its own sets of common themes that the main fandom may want nothing to do with.

This doesn’t mean you have to pick between dpxdc and its parent fandoms, like Danny Phantom or DC or Batfam. Indeed, by NOT tagging dpxdc with its parent fandoms, you are ensuring that people who want a space for dpxdc and a space for its parent fandoms can have both! We don’t have to pick sides! But in order to have both, we need to tag dpxdc content with a tag we can search (that is, dpxdc), AND we need to make sure we’re NOT tagging the parent fandoms (such as, danny phantom).

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Thank you!!! 🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇

[image description: A table with 3 categories, “DC Content”, “DPxDC content” and “DP content. 

Under “DC Content” are listed: dc comics, dc, batfam, Young Justice Cartoon, Young Justice , Teen Titans, Teen Titans 2003, Batman, Gotham, Bruce Wayne, Justice League, Superman, Clark Kent, Metropolis , Jason Todd, Red Hood, Tim Drake, Red Robin, Damian Wayne, Lazarus Pit, Lazarus Water, Ras al Ghul, Watchtower, Constantine, John Constantine, Robin dc.

Under “DPxDC content” are listed: dpxdc, dp x dc, dcxdp, dc x dp, dp x dc crossover, dp x dc prompt, dp x dc fanfic, dp x dc au, dp x yj, dpxyj, dp x jl, dpxjl, dpxdc event, Batpham, Danny Fenton/Dick Grayson, Death Defying, Danny Fenton/Jason Todd, Dead on Main ship, Danny Fenton/Cassandra Cain, Dead Silent, Danny Fenton/Tim Drake, Brain Dead, Dead Tired, Danny Fenton/Damian Wayne, Dead Serious, Jazz Fenton/Jason Todd, Anger Management ship, Hardcover, Jazz Fenton/Cassandra Cain, Silent Jasmines, Dani Phantom/Damian Wayne, Serious Chaos, Double Edged ship, Dani Phantom/Mar'i Grayson, Space Princess, Demon Twins.

Under “DP content” are listed: Danny Phantom, Phandom, Phanart, Phanfic, Danny Fenton, Sam Manson, Tucker Foley, Vlad Masters, Vlad Plasmius, Ghost King Danny, Ghost Zone, Infinite Realms, A Glitch in Time, Amity Park, Nasty Burger, Everlasting Trio, Badger Cereal, Dan Phantom, Valerie Gray, Team Phantom, Jazz Fenton, Clockwork, Skulker, Fenton, Jack Fenton, Maddie Fenton, Eldritch danny, Fright Knight. end]

[rubydubydoo122]

could you talk more about fanon vs canon tim drake? i havent gotten too far into the comics yet but have seen a lot of him (mis?)characterized by others

Just a preface, I'm not gonna crucify any Tim fans who find themselves writing these tropes, because it is fandom, and everyone's allowed their own interpretations of the character, I'm just personally not a fan of these takes on Tim because in my mind they just don't make sense for the character. If anyone has differing opinions, feel free to (politely) explain them to me, because I'm happy to hear them.

Ok, so much like Fanon Dick Grayson, there are two versions of fanon Tim Drake.

There's version A.) where where he's one minor inconvienience away from becoming a supervillain (I understand where this one comes from and I don't HATE it) and there's version B.) where he was criminally neglected as a kid and is infantalized (This version of Tim I Loathe)

I'll start with version A. I see where it comes from. Mainly the Red Robin 2009 run, but we have to remember that Tim was grieving pretty much everyone close to him during that era. He was being self destructive because of that grief, and yeah, grief changes a person, but Tim is the type of character who would still turn out good despite all the hurt handed to him. Oh! But Gun Batman-- Tim actively chose against being that. He would rather kill himself than let himself become a version of Batman who went against everything Batman stood for. I know there are multiple storylines where Tim meets and evil future version of himself, but those versions would constantly be like a weight on him to be good. All in all, if I had to choose between the fanon Tim Drakes, I would choose villain Tim Drake, as long as it's done in more of a character-study way rather than a 'He deserves to go evil, as a treat' because it's an interesting take with the right motives.

Now onto Version B. Loser Tim Drake. The reason I Loathe this version of Tim is because it usually involves Characters Assassination of the characters around him. Ok, so do I agree that Tim Drake was somewhat neglected? Yes. But goddamit, the way I see Jack and Janet portrayed, you would think that they were running from the feds or something. They were good people, just bad parents. Maybe a little immature to raise a child, but it wasn't to the point where they would probably need to call CPS. Neglect isn't black and white, and the Drakes fell into that grey-- which I personally believe to be a lighter shade. You do have to remember that a lot of Tim's introduction was written in the 90's where parenting styles were a lot different compared to Today. Still, they sent him to boarding school, meaning they made sure that some form of adult was taking care of Tim AND a lot of people try to make Jack Drake out to be the villain for stopping Tim from being Robin, and blackmailing Bruce for it, but... It's What Any Sane Parent Would Do? I'm 18, but I know if I ever had a kid, and then fell into a coma and then woke up and found out that my Kid was fighting crime in one of the most CRIME RIDDEN CITIES alongside my middle-aged neighbor who dresses up like a furry I WOULD CALL THE FUCKING COPS. But enough about the Drakes. Because not only does Loser Tim Drake assassinate their character, but why is 17 year old Tim the victim when it comes to 10 year old Damian-- "Oh he tried to kill him' They're both trained by assassins. They're both trained. They're both Trained. Why Is a Junior/Senior in high school hurt by the actions of a 5th grader. I have a similar age gap with my younger brother. We have had pretty brutal fights and the next day we're fine. I'm not going to get into "Attack on Titans Tower AUs" but I will say this, Every Time I Start To Read One Of Those, I Lose Half Of My Hair Because of How Bad the Characterization Of Both Jason And Tim are. Please, Read, The, Comic. Jason Wasn't Trying To Kill Tim. If He Was, Tim would Be Dead. ANd Tim was Snarking Jason Through The Entire Confrontation. Lastly, Why Has DICK 'BAMF' GRAYSON TURNED INTO TIM"S NUMBER ONE OP????!!!! DIck IS LITERALLY TiM's ChiLDHOOD HEro!!!!! NoT BAtMAN, DICK GRAYSON. And like, not only that, Dick and Tim are the most brotherly. I'm Begging, Please go read a 90's comic. Why is it, the only time I see Dicks Manipulative side in fanon, It's in opposition to Tim? I bet it's bc of Teen Titans Go. I bet the only Tim and Dick interaction they've seen is TTG Robin going "No BOdy cARes AbOuT TiM DrAke"

Sorry that ended up becoming rant-y, and less objective. Since actually reading comics, fanon Tim Drake gets on my nerves.

[bekolxeram]

During this hiatus, other than rewatching S7 for cute moments that we missed and coming up with headconons and new fic ideas, may I suggest going back to actually read/watch/listen to interviews with the cast?

Certain more dedicated members of the fandom tend to overfixate on one single sentence or even word the cast uttered and ignore all context around it. Sure, some of them might came into it with an agenda (like many journalists did sadly) and confirmation bias took care of the rest of it, but at the same time, who has time to read pages of disjointed chat with actors improvising answers without full knowledge of the production side of the show?

I've seen people proving Eddie's queerness by this quote from Lou's interview with the Hollywood Reporter in April:

This alone has been interpreted all sorts of ways, from Ryan not accepting this storyline (which doesn't make him homophobic btw, he could've simply not seen Eddie's story going this way, or he thought he wasn't equipped to do this storyline justice), to Buck's LIs not agreeing to come back because of scheduling conflict, to the writers just thought it was more appropriate for Buck to be queer.

I'm not here to speculate anything, I'm just going to point out earlier in the same interview, Lou also said he always knew this storyline would be with Oliver:

I don't know what's going on here, Lou might have insider information, but it also could be him just speculating over Tommy and Eddie's quickly formed friendship. To my knowledge, Tim has never confirmed that Tommy's queer storyline would be with Eddie before it supposedly fell through. In fact, Tim did say once it felt like Buck's story:

And then there's Lou's supposed dislike of filming make out scenes:

I do agree with him that gratuitous scenes on TV are unnecessary. I can't even count how many times I'm watching TV with my family when a graphic sex scene comes on unprompted, and my family members and I have to try our best to pretend we don't see it. But he also said that he didn't like it only when it didn't add to the story. Like we saw in 7x06, Lou gladly rubbed his face into Oliver's because this is how Buck came out.

There's also the part most people skipped through when Lou talked about the 7x04 kiss:

Lou (and everyone involved in the storyline) doesn't want Tommy to seem predatory. I have no idea if it's a reference to a possible earlier version of the script with an Eddie bi awakening instead of a Buck one. What I'm getting is that Lou and Tim tried to avoid playing into the stereotype of gay men hanging around knowingly straight men just to get into their pants.

And boy was Lou right. If they went for a full make out scene, the fandom discourse would've been so different. Naysayers wouldn't have been latching onto bachelor party costume or daddy issue joke. It would've led to much more serious allegations.

I'm happy it all worked out in universe as well. As we've seen from the past 7 seasons, Buck has no problem getting sexual partners. In the past he tried having physical relationships with women in hopes that it would lead to an emotional one, he also tried intentionally holding off intimacy just because he thought it would get in the way of boding with someone on a humanly level. This is the first time someone picked up Buck's (unintentional?) flirting, decided to break the ambiguity (landing it like a good pilot), gave him a brief peck to test the water, and then left to give Buck time to process his feelings.

Not only was it okay for Buck, it left him wanting more.

And lastly there's the allegedly "Tommy is just Buck's gay mentor to test thing out with" thing:

But earlier in the interview, it was established that Lou said it as a response to why the other shippers should still embrace Buck and Tommy's relationship. He didn't actually know what would happen in the future:

[outrunningthedark]

I know that li have always been treated particularly badly by fans of rhe show but it had reached entirely new levels with tommy and lou...

Do you thinks it's bc it was easier to write off the women bc they weren't a tangible threat (like not trying to downplay ow they were treated, but with the women you could still play the rddie is a repressed gay man and buck just doesnt know hes in love yet) but with tommy he's a man and he was seen as the final stepping stone for buddie. (Hence why so many that have been stirring up the hate were initially gushing about the kiss etc).

Like it was a case of being closer than ever but suddenly he's hanging around and in someways a greater threat than ever bc if he doesn't leave what was the point of making buck bi if it wasn't leading to buddie canon.

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across but am I making sense?

You got your point across perfectly, nonnie. No worries. And you're right. When both Buck and Eddie were only dating women, it was easier to convince ourselves (yes, I was part of it, though for a shorter time) that things would change once Buck and Eddie realized and accepted their feelings for each other. They're only dating women because they don't think being with their best friend is an option, right? Something's gotta wake them up. (This is where Eddie getting shot was supposed to factor in, and then the hostage situation, and then Buck in a coma...) But now Buck is not straight. (I typically say bi since however the show chooses to define his sexuality is tbd.) And now Buck has a boyfriend. A boyfriend that is not Eddie. If Buck can have a boyfriend that is not Eddie - not a fling, not a four episode arc to "introduce" his awakening - then Bi Buck was never really about Buddie, was it? It was about writing a story that would get Buck off of Tim's interpretation of the hamster wheel - dating women that weren't realistic long-term partners: (via TheWrap) “I was kind of bored with the hamster wheel of the relationships [Buck] had been in. His story needed a slap. It needed some something fresh. This felt like it could be important to some people, and it felt like it was right for the character.” And to add insult to injury, Tommy might be a side character that we only see every few weeks going forward, but he's no news reporter or death doula. He's a firefighter and pilot for the LAFD. He has history with Bobby, and Hen, and Chim. And now Gerrard. Tommy isn't the same old love interest that you wouldn't remember existed if he was MIA. And that's because Tim wanted it that way. He wanted Buck's first relationship with a man to be with a first responder who could seamlessly fit into the plot and serve a purpose outside of being the guy Buck is dating. If Tim made the effort to do that with Buck's (I repeat) first relationship with a man, then why would he immediately tear down what he's built for a relationship that the actors aren't even asking or advocating for right now? (If they ever even were?) Fandom knows that last part, too. But it's easier to attack Lou for "getting in the way" of Buddie than admit the two men they praised for being #BuddieWarriors aren't actually serious about having it play out on screen.

[necroromantics]

Ticci Toby + Bipolar Disorder

Partially an educational post, partially a how-to-write guide.

(check out my how-to-write aspd/psychopathy here)

What is bipolar disorder?

Bipolar disorder (shortened to BD, not BPD), is a mood disorder that causes a person to experience extreme fluncuations in their moods and energy levels. These episodes swing from depressive lows to manic highs. Despite popular belief, bipolar episodes last a long time (1+ weeks), and typically have a period of stability in between them. It is NOT the same as borderline personality disorder, they are two very different disorders.

Does Toby canonically have bipolar?

Sort of. His canon reference sheet shows 'bipolar' as one of his personality traits. This is just an error on the creators part, since they were young and didn't know what real bipolar disorder is. Bipolar isn't a personality trait, and the mood swings in the disorder are not quick switches. The way it's used on his sheet is more like borderline personality disorder than it is bipolar disorder. So if we're talking about whats canon, I'd say it's up for interpretation.

Do you headcanon Toby to have bipolar?

I do, but mostly because I have BD myself, and I like to project that onto him. Theres no characters in media who have bipolar disorder that I enjoy/know of, because honestly its kind of a pain in the ass to write. I rarely include it in any of my stories involving him, even though having untreated bipolar disorder is something that would effect him every day of his life, and severely. I would rather people not write him having bipolar at all, than to write it as BPD or other misinforming ways.

How to properly write Toby with bipolar?

A bit of this can also apply to any other character. First, the obvious, is to do research. Bipolar is something that needs to be treated, because manic highs and depressive lows are so life-altering, damaging, and cause a lot of harm to the individual. Since Toby is a killer on the run, he most likely wouldn't have access to proper treatment, which means his entire life would be a series of intense highs and lows. This is why I usually don't bother including his bipolar symptoms in my writing, cuz it's a hassle incorporating him going wildly manic at random points, even though its the harsh reality people with bipolar disorder face. So if you're going to write Toby with BD, you will need to be prepared to write how inconvenient the disorder is for not only Toby himself, but everyone around him.

It would interfere with his work as a proxy, it would greatly impact his relationships with the people around him. It might even end up with him getting caught by the police, or thrown into a psychiatric hospital (most people with bipolar end up in a psych ward at some point). If you do want to write him being treated for his disorder, you'll need to look into medication. One of the most common ones is lithium, but did you know some anticonvulsants (the medication Tim takes in Marble Hornets), act as a secondary treatment for bipolar disorder too? Carbamazepine is an example of this. You could incorporate that as well, since in Marble Hornets anticonvulsants are used to potentially lessen the effects of The Operator.

What do manic episodes look like? How would they effect Toby?

Manic episodes are very intense highs in mood and energy. Despite what people say, real manic episodes are only experienced in people with bipolar disorder. Other disorders such as ADHD and BPD can mimic mania, but they are not classified as true manic episodes. So if you want to write mania, the character needs to have bipolar (or schizoaffective).

Some symptoms of a manic episode are racing thoughts, lack of judgment, feeling untouchable or overly confident, no consideration for consequences, talking a lot, jumbled words from speaking too fast, jumping from one task to another. It feels like a constant surge of energy going through your body, and its so overwhelming you can't stop to think about anything you're doing. You just feel absolutely euphoric, and capable, and like nothing can bring you down. A very real danger of manic episodes is that some people experience co-occurring psychosis alongside their episodes, such as delusions and hallucinations. Another issue is that people with mania are so full of energy, they don't sleep for days on end. These highs can also lead to dangerous acts due to the recklessness and lack of proper judgement on whats safe/smart in that moment. There is also hypomania, which is a lesser, more mild form of mania.

For Toby, it completely depends on how you view his character and circumstances. But for me, I think that in a manic episode, Toby would cause many issues in his relationships with the people around him. He would be much more irritable, paranoid, he would go on rants and talk a lot, jumping from one rant to another. He wouldn't sleep for days, he would become increasingly reckless and grandiose. Toby would fight more with others, go off on his own a lot more, do a lot of risky things, and with his CIPA he would most definitely get himself hurt a lot more and more severely. When you're manic, you don't stop to consider the risks of the reckless things you're doing.

What do depressive episodes look like? How would they effect Toby?

Depressive episodes may come directly after a manic episode, a crash, or they can come on randomly after a period of stability. They typically last longer than manic episodes, usually about 1+ months. They're periods of an intense drop in mood and energy levels, which are often pretty severe.

The symptoms of depressive episodes are similar to regular depression, but not quite the same, and typically on the more severe end of the spectrum. Utter hopelessness and bleakness, suicidal thoughts, oversleeping, lack of interest in anything, sadness, difficulties concentrating, slower thinking, social isolation. Bipolar lows feel like energy and life is being sucked right out of you. All you want to do is sleep, nothing feels interesting, or you don't have any energy to do things that used to make you happy. People are disappointing, you don't want to talk to anyone. The lows feel very heavy, very tiring.

When Toby is experiencing a low episode, I can't imagine he gets out much. He would probably disappear for a bit, to be left alone, because he doesn't want to be around anybody. He would spend his time sleeping as much as he can, and then the rest of his time doing proxy work, and then going back to sleep. He probably wouldn't want to be awake with his hopeless and bleak thoughts.

What are mixed episodes?

Hell on earth. Mixed episodes are when someone with BD experiences both manic and depressive symptoms in rapid succession or at the same time. This can look like feeling super energetic, but also horribly hopeless and depressed, or being on top of the world one minute, and then wanting to off yourself the next. They are very intense, and dangerous. It feels like you're losing your mind, and you can't catch yourself. You just have to sit there and let your mind take you on the worst rollercoaster of your life.

What are some things to avoid when writing bipolar disorder?

For the love of GOD stop mixing it up with borderline personality disorder. Bipolar is a MOOD DISORDER, not a personality disorder. The mood swings are not quick or volatile, there is no fear of abandonment, or unstable emotions. The mood swings are more like intense changes in energy that effects the mood, and they typically last over the course of a week+. Toby canonically does have volatile, rapidly shifting and unpredictable emotions, but that would not be a result of his bipolar disorder (besides maybe during a manic episode).

And the obvious, don't demonize the disorder and make him out to be a crazy person because he's bipolar. Toby is nuts, but not because he has BD.

If you have any more questions, Google is free, but make sure to find reliable and professional sources. But also, if you want to DM me or send a question in my inbox I'm free to answer with my personal experience, and headcanons, about bipolar and how it may present in Toby.

[celaenaeiln]

What's the deal with fanon Tim bc I read some comics with Tim and I've seen him in cartoons but all I see people talk about is "haha coffee addicted nerd who doesn't sleep!" and that just seems weird and wrong. Like my view of Tim has always been "he's a nice and extremely smart guy who sometimes pushes things a bit too far and maybe a bit set in his own ways/Batman's ways" but now I'm not even sure of that because I really haven't read THAT much (mostly seen him in other series) lol

No you're right!! Anon you're so right!!!

What the heck is up with fanon Tim Drake??

The thing about him not sleeping is actually true though

Detective Comics (2016) Issue #937

Batman: Contagion Issue #11

(I agree with Catwoman, Tim is so cute)

So I understand where the coffee addiction in fanon comes from but Tim's not actually addicted to coffee in the comics. I actually don't recall him mentioning coffee at all. At some point he might have but if he did, then those instances are so little in the grand scheme of things it might as well be called negligible if it's trying to be called an addiction.

But more importantly, Tim is so much more than that!! My favorite Tim Drake aspect of him is how sassy and sarcastic he is, it makes him so endearing!!

UGH NO ONE APPRECIATES HOW MUCH OF A LITTLE SHIT HE IS!!

Robin (1993) Issue #58

CMON CMON CMON LETS TALK MORE ABOUT THIS!!

Tim, you little shit, you know exactly what they say - cause you did it!!

HIS SELF-SATISFIED SMILE!!!

In all honesty I find Tim the funniest of the entire batfamily to read because he's so-he's so wholesomely quirky in a mean way. That's such as awkward way to describe it but reading his comics, you just can't get enough of them because he's just too funny!

At one point he has a massive fever and stuck underground with a bunch of weird kids and one of the girls is just like "please get better, please get some rest!" as she's wiping away his sweat and Tim has like no breath or energy at this point. But with the last remains of will power, he uses his breath to push one last question between lips.

Robin (1993) Issue #70

And as the audience waits in baited anticipation we get this-

Robin (1993) Issue #70

It's actually a very valid question and shows his detective thinking and yada yada yada but THE COMEDIC GOLD OF HIS TIMING!!

Like his situation and his question there's a massive gap that's almost incomprehensible about it all which is why it's so fantastic!!

The way he sasses batman is top 5 fav moments with him.

Azrael: Agent of the Bat Issue #91

Thanks @paladin-of-nerd-fandom65 for finding it again <33

But Tim overall is just like a normal kid. He's what authors tried to do with Stephanie but failed. They were able to make him relatable to the audience because the way he acts, it's so quirky but funny. Yes, he's a boy detective genius but he likes messing with people, he likes solving crime, he likes hanging out with his big brother, he asks for relationship advice, he can get insecure, he can get upset without acting cold, he gets tired, he gets anxious, he's determined, and he's super dorky.

Robin (1993) Issue #25

Like really dorky.

But what I think really defines him is this panel

Robin (1993) Issue #48

This scene is probably what explains him best. Tim is someone who ponders a lot. He thinks constantly all the time whether it's about cases or his personal life, he just goes over the choices he makes constantly because he's just soul-searching alot.

He always means well even if he's awkward about it and he's just a diverse personality overall. The fanon interpretation of his character doesn't really do him any justice because it doesn't address how funny he is or confused or just a likeable, real person in general.

[lemotmo]

I am confused by people on the daily but sending it to you because I loved her response. She has to be exhausted by her inbox 😭. I don't know how you all handle this.

Q. I need a few things explained to me. I will say upfront I am camp Tommy. The article did not seem pro Tommy and Buck to me, but plenty of my Tommy peers were thrilled with it, but so were Buddie fans so there is a disconnect in someone's interpretation. It was unnecessary for Tim to have brought up Eddie there. They weren't talking about Eddie, it was inappropriate. It doesn't matter that Lou and Oliver never did a chemistry test, they're fine together. Why do people care? Lastly Oliver clearly has an agenda. It would not have killed him to hold that picture of Ryan for another day. He could have let us have our confirmation that Tommy is indeed back and maybe shared a pic of him instead of Ryan. Lou can have BTS stuff too.

A. The article speaks for itself. It doesn't require interpretation. Tim mentioned Eddie because they're all part of the same storyline. Period. People can choose to ignore that fact if they want but it won't change the storyline. Eddie is the point. Eddie has been the point. That theme is carrying over into this season. Buck's relationship with Tommy is going to play some part in whatever Eddie's self discovery is going to be. Tim wouldn't have mentioned Eddie in relation to the pair otherwise. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think TV shows do chemistry reads unless it's a long term thing. If it is just for a particular plot or storyline they will cast the actor that best fits the plot purpose. The chemistry is secondary to the overall plot so I'm not at all surprised that they didn't do a chemistry read. Their chemistry isn't the point. The storyline he was cast for is the point. In this case the plot purpose is Buck and Eddie. Eddie told Buck him being bi wouldn't change anything between the two of them when in reality everything is going to change. That is the point. Oliver's chemistry with Lou isn't relevant in any way.

I would not look too hard for him in any BTS. And I know you won't believe this but I think that is for your benefit. Why give you anything that may lead you to believe he's anything other than a plot point? They shouldn't include him. It's not realistic. And feeds into something that has already been taken way out of context. Lastly, Oliver does have an agenda. He always has. He always offers counter programming to the canon. It will not change unless the canon becomes Buddie. He has been this way from the beginning. And he doesn't owe anyone an apology for that.

Thank you so much Nonny. As always, much appreciated.

*sigh*

I really feel like everyone should just give Ali a break here. She has explained this over a 1000 times already. How many times does she need to repeat it?

I agree with all of this.

Also, that article was blunt and in your face. Tim brought up Eddie when talking about BT, which is something the show has done since day one by the way. Eddie has ALWAYS been involved in this storyline and he will continue to become even more important in this storyline, because the whole purpose of BT was always Buddie.

IMPORTANT! Please don't repost this ask and/or a link that leads straight to my Tumblr account on Twitter or any other social media. Thank you!

Heads up! For anyone who is giving me the shifty eyes for reposting Ali's updates instead of reblogging. Read this.

Remember, no hate in comments, reblogs or inboxes. Let's keep it civil and respectful. Thank you.

If you are interested in more of Ali’s posts, you can find all of her posts so far under the tag: anonymous blog I love.

[theflyindutchwoman]

Can you better explain how Isabel factored into Tim and Lucy's fight? I've rewatched the scene multiple times trying to understand, but I'm just not making the connection, and I know I'm missing something. I thought the fight was about Lucy making detective, but then she brought up Tim's trauma with Isabel, and I'm just not seeing how they connect.

I can certainly try - whether I'll succeed, however, is another matter… Make yourself comfortable, it's going to be a long post. As always, this is merely my interpretation.

The fight was initially about Lucy making detective and escalated from there. That's because the issue goes beyond just this test : all of this is intrinsically connected to the whole undercover work storyline. This is the reason why she is taking this exam in the first place : so she can become a UC. And that is the crux of the matter. This is the topic they have yet to fully discuss : how Tim truly feels about her becoming a full UC officer considering his past traumatic experience. It has been bubbling for the last five episodes… And this time, it blew over.

In my opinion, you can see the progression of their argument in these 3 key scenes.

/ 1st - First scene in the shop (Lucy's spiraling) Here, Lucy is entirely focused on the detective exam. This is about the pressure she is feeling. Taking an exam is already stressful enough, but add the fact that one of the higher-ups is gunning for her, and her anxiety is understandable. I believe that up to this point, she has been trying not to let it get to her. We saw a bit of her distress when she found out about Primm potentially blocking her in 5.19, but that was it. Now that the date is approaching though, the cracks are starting to show. As someone else mentioned, she asked for TO/Sergeant Bradford to help her when really, she wanted (and needed) Boyfriend Tim. You can already see how she is second-guessing herself when she says she should have asked Nyla or Angela for help. And after that, well… She starts spiraling. Part of the reason why she cracks here is that she feels safe : she's in the shop, riding with Tim. This is an environment she is familiar with. So she starts unloading. Only, once she starts, she can't stop. She overthinks everything in a way we haven't seen her do before, not even when she was still a rookie. And Tim in that moment is completely caught off-guard, not knowing what to do. And to be frank, I don't think he realises how bad it is yet. Now, speaking from experience, I'm not entirely sure there was anything he could have said that would have made a difference. I've been on both sides of the equation and you usually feel powerless. What could have possibly helped was doing some breathing exercises with her, making her focus on the here and now, or simply taking a small walk… Like in that scene with Barnes and the ladybug in 3.11. Anything really to take her mind off that exam. But I'm afraid that would have only been helpful in the short term since the issue at heart goes far deeper than the exam.

/ 2nd - The fight in the shop (stake out) This is where the conversation starts to (slowly) shift away from the exam itself. At this point, Lucy is on a downward spiral and is second-guessing everything, including taking the exam. It's clear by the tears in her eyes that she is barely holding it together. Tim's immediate reaction is to protest and reassure her that she is ready. And when she argues that it would be better for her to wait, he tries to reassure her again that there's nothing wrong that. He even makes sure to emphasise that she can still do some undercover assignments while in patrol. Because he knows this is why she wants to become a detective. There is no malice in his words. He is genuinely trying to be supportive and help her deescalate. He trusts her to know what's best for her and if she says it is to wait, then he will support her. Just like he trusted her when she wanted to stay undercover after finding out Rosalind had escaped. Unfortunately, Lucy understands something entirely different. What she hears is that he doesn't believe she can pass the exam. Otherwise he would have insisted. And from there, she spirals even more. Her mind is projecting and creating a whole new scenario. Remember when I said she is second-guessing everything? Well, now it includes Tim. When you spiral, your mind tends to jump to the worst case-scenario. And before they can clarify this, the suspect shows up.

/ 3rd - The final scene And this is when it all comes crashing down. Tim is still trying to figure out what happened while Lucy's mind is already somewhere else. He's playing catch up here. When you think about it, it's not that different from the 'unless it is' scene : when they met outside the station back then, Tim was trying to understand why she didn't want to break up with Chris while Lucy was one step ahead of him and blurted her confession out. When they meet here in the parking garage (a few steps away from where they were in 5.08 by the way), she looks completely defeated. She solved the case but it doesn't feel like a victory. Now, her doubts go far beyond Primm and the exam. Doubts poison everything. And make you question everything. And in that moment, the thing she is questioning is why Tim doesn't believe she can pass the exam.

So why does she jump to Tim's trauma with Isabel? Because, in her mind, that's the reason why he is scared of her becoming a detective. If she passes the exam, she will be an undercover cop. Her words are : "Did you undermine me today because you're scared that I'm gonna make detective?". "Scared" being the operative word here. Like I said earlier, this is where I think the context helps. Ever since she told him about taking the detective exam in 5.19, she has tried on numerous occasion to broach the topic of undercover - to no avail. He has either deflected or walked away. Like in that couch scene at the end of 5.20 : "I'm worried that you won't [be able to handle me going deep undercover] - I'll be fine". Or that scene in the laundry room : "Look, it's not my first time - I know. It's probably what makes it worse - All right, now's not the time to talk about this". Before it finally blew over a little at the end : "If this is gonna work between us, I need to know that you can see the difference - Of course I can". And there's something to be said in the mirroring in the language here : "if this is gonna work between us" in 5.21 / "this isn't gonna work if you're gonna lie to me" in 6.01.

She knows about his trauma and like he said, he has acknowledged it with her since day one. But that was then. That was before they became a couple. Since their relationship changed, with the exception of that final scene in 5.21, he has yet to open up on how he truly feels about her doing undercover work. And because she knows him and his past, she can sense that he's hiding something. She can sense he is scared. He all but admitted it in 5.21 after all. But that conversation just scratched the surface.

The other reason she brings up his past and trauma is because the one time they did talk about this was when he jumped to the conclusion that she was hiding things while undercover, the way Isabel did. But they didn't go deeper, they were too raw back then. Still, this part of the conversation probably stuck with her. She has internalised everything for so long, has bottled up all those feelings, those things left unsaid until she couldn't contain them anymore. And she blurted everything out at the worst time. That's the issue when you don't talk about things : your intentions can get misconstrued. And watching your partner walk away from the difficult conversation, before you can actually talk things through, takes its toll on you. It creates a doubt. Now add all that spiraling, all that second-guessing she has done all day long and you got a recipe for disaster. She arrives at this crashing point where she second-guesses him. Because she is afraid too. She is afraid that the other shoe is about to drop.

Now from Tim's perspective, I believe he is sincere in his support. And I don't think that in this episode, his past even crossed his mind. He genuinely wants her to succeed, to have the career that she wants and deserves. When he says that she's different, that they're going to figure out, he means it. When he said they were worth the risk, he meant it. He already knew she was going to do undercover work. But he's also scared. The most obvious time was in 5.20 where they were sitting on the couch. The fear was written all over his face. That said, I get where he's coming from too : after his reaction in 3.06, I can understand why he is more guarded. That he doesn't want his fears to influence her in any way. "You don't let anyone ever tell you you can't do something. Not even me." I can imagine that he is afraid that should he be entirely honest, it would put Lucy in a situation where she feels that she has to choose between him and UC. And that's the last thing he wants. He doesn't want to be the one to hold her back in any form. Like he said in 5.02. He wants the best for her so he will be supportive, no matter what her decision is.

And here's the irony for you : he wants to be so supportive that he doesn't see that what she needs even more is honesty from him and that without that honesty, it is creating a doubt in her mind. It's a loop they are stuck in. At least, for now. All it takes to break that loop is to talk.

I hope this helped shed some light on the connection and answered your question :)

[userautumn]

i don't know why you act so surprised that some people would be upset about how sooo many people in this fandom, you included, used to preach about how buddie was going canon, just trust the storytelling blah blah blah (sorry i always thought that was bullshit). and now you're like just kidding maybe it will be bucktommy forever instead. i'm not blaming you but really popular people in this fandom building up the idea for years that buddie was going to go canon and then just dropping that is absolutely part of what made this fandom go batshit don't play dumb about that

I'm not responsible for what other people think 🤷🏾‍♀️ I'm sorry that you appear to be unable to differentiate between me articulating my opinions on my blog versus me giving you targeted leadership about what you should think or believe, but I said in my pinned for years that I'm not your leader re: Buddie and it's not my job to "convince" you one way or the other. See pinned below:

Second, I'm going to be painfully blunt:

You gave me social capital. You, and everyone else who followed me and interacted with me, have made me a "really popular" blog. I have mixed feelings about that, both positive and negative, but we're here now and it is what it is. The problem you and I are having is that you made the mistake of believing that the social capital that you gave me made me an authority on all things 9-1-1.

It didn't. I'm not and I never claimed to be.

So you want to talk about the story? Yes, let's talk about the story. Per Oliver's own words, we as a fandom did interpret the story correctly. Oliver said in May that they (the higher ups) fished around the idea of Buck being bisexual in Season 4. Given this confirmation and, absent of any other love interests, it stands to reason that Buck and Eddie were supposed to be on a romantic trajectory, culminating in the events of Season 5 which is why Season 5 ended with me (because I can only speak for myself) fully believing Season 6 would be the season they finally got together.

Season 6 comes around. Not only do Buck and Eddie not get together, they also don't share many significant scenes with each other. Kristen was the full-time showrunner at the time, so I assumed she wanted to highlight the other dynamics on the show. This was also confirmed.

Season 7 comes around. Buck and Eddie share many significant scenes but none of them leave room to interpret explicit romantic intent the way some of their Season 3 / Season 4 / Season 5 scenes (in my opinion) have. Now, this is something we will likely disagree on because what I view as "romantic intent" is going to vastly differ from what you may view as romantic intent and that's fine. The gist is that none of the scenes Buck and Eddie shared this past season seemed geared toward explicitly pulling their relationship in a romantic direction.

Just the opposite, in fact. Enter Tommy.

I mentioned at the beginning of Season 7 that I didn't think Buck and Eddie were going canon this season. I said months ago that Tim et. al. were introducing the show to a new audience and that, what would be a slowburn for us, would be sudden for them. I said months ago that if, Buck and Eddie were to go canon, I didn't see it happening before Season 9 because they would need to build that relationship up for the audience. I still maintain that and, in fact, said in my personal DMs that whatever happens in Season 8 is going to be the determining factor for a lot of what happens in the future of the show.

So you want to talk about interpreting the story, trusting the story? That is what I am doing and, right now, the story seems to be veering away from romantic!Buddie. Does that mean they won't ever veer back? No! Does that mean I think Tommy is going to be Buck's endgame? No! What it does mean is that I'm leaving the door open on both fronts as a possibility. Which shouldn't be a shocking concept and yet is.

Third and finally, let's be clear, this betrayal you're articulating isn't directed at me or anyone else in the fandom. It's directed at Tim. You spent years getting your hopes up about a ship you're now not sure will come to fruition and that scares you. I feel genuine empathy about that because that's always such a shitty feeling and it's easier for you to direct your frustration and sadness and anger at targets that are more accessible because we're right here and, in this way, your emotions still have an outlet. But I'm not to blame for this uncertainty any more than any one else. I've not conducted myself perfectly in this fandom and I've owned up to it every single time. But in the conversation of what, exactly, drove this fandom to becoming "batshit insane," it's definitely those feelings of betrayal and uncertainty (which, for the record, I don't blame anyone for having).

Hope this helps.

tone: /not mad

[loveinhawkins]

Thinking again about theater kid Dustin so naturally I had to come to you 💙 Specifically I’m thinking about Dustin auditioning for a community theater production of Jesus Christ Superstar with an eccentric director who convinces Eddie to audition for Judas. He knows his reputation and thinks his notoriety will add an extra meta layer to the role (and get some butts in the seats he’s gotta keep the lights on somehow). Eddie is reluctant to put himself in the spotlight but ultimately does cause Dustin is excited about it. Also he’s really good? He plays it completely sincerely which no one is expecting, really leans into the interpretation that Judas was in love with Jesus and amps up the tragedy. (Afterwards Steve also asks him if that kiss with Jesus is in the script or…?)

i love this so much, thank you for sharing with me! ❤️ theatre kid Dustin is just so incredibly precious & i just love the thought of him having so much fun with it in his future. like i see him as such a little social butterfly, i think everyone in the theatre group would adore him (i’m always so upset when his peers make fun of him at the snow ball, no, that’s my boy!!!)

and oh my god Jesus Christ superstar yes!!! yeah i can see Eddie being so hesitant about it, like the thought of how certain factions of hawkins might still view him makes him nauseous.

but the director—who maybe knows through close-knit community theatre circles that a very young Eddie once played Action in West Side Story (i love your story so much ❤️)—has one last parting shot which convinces him.

“So you never want to have fun ever again?”

… Huh, Eddie thinks.

he still asks for Dustin’s approval, all too concerned with the thought that this is Dustin’s thing and maybe he’s overstepping or something, or—

“Holy shit, that’s some seriously impressive over-thinking,” Dustin says. “You’re my friend, asshole.”

And maybe he says it with a tone, but he means I wanna hang out more with you not less!

so Eddie takes the role and of course he’s brilliant—okay everyone’s got opinions on the auto tune used in Tim Minchin’s rendition but dear god the depths in his eyes, the acting. also maybe the director does a present day take like that version did & Eddie’s jokingly like “I could wear the hellfire tshirt” & the director’s eyes light up & Eddie quickly goes, “No. That was a joke, it wouldn’t even make sense.”—and maybe there’s something empowering in playing this figure when people once said his name and the Devil’s in the same breath.

Maybe, maybe.

and oh we all know who Eddie is thinking about when he’s singing:

I don't know how to love him I don't know why he moves me He's a man, he's just a man He's not a king, he's just the same As anyone I know He scares me so

and

Does he love, does he love me too? Does he care for me?

And oh on a lighthearted note, Steve asking if the kiss is in the script has me in hysterics, especially if this is pre-them getting together.

just the thought of Steve staring grumpily any time there’s a scene with Jesus & Judas—the guy who plays Jesus is maybe like a couple years older than Eddie, not originally from Hawkins perhaps so he’s kinda not fully aware of Eddie’s history & sure, he’s nice, but he’s just not on Eddie’s radar at all.

So when Steve asks if the kiss was in the script (not that he cares! At all! He doesn’t care! Look at how much he doesn’t care!), Eddie stares at him for a long moment and says, “Steve. Did you think I improvved the Bible?”

Dustin, who is also here—currently doing English homework up on a barstool in Steve’s kitchen while Eddie & Steve lounge on the couch—sighs very loudly and says, “How the fuck am I supposed to know what role dialogue plays in Much Ado About Nothing?”

Eddie waves a hand distractedly at him. “Just make it up.”

“I can’t just because my way through Shakespeare,” Dustin says, adds in a huffy undertone, “this isn’t one of your campaigns.”

Eddie mimes being stabbed in the heart. “Oh, betrayal!”

“So it was in the script?” Steve says.

“Oh for—yes, Steve, it was,” Eddie says. “It’s called acting. Also, it was on the cheek.”

“So?”

“So—ugh, just—” Eddie tugs on Steve’s wrist impulsively, while another part of his brain is screaming in vain for him to stop. “Come here.”

“What’re you doing?”

“I’m just showing you how fucking little it—”

I’m never finishing this essay, Dustin thinks. My home life is distracting and chaotic.

And Eddie kisses Steve very very chastely on the cheek, just to show it was nothing, that’s all, but Steve can feel Eddie’s breath on his skin, the warmth of his lips, and Eddie doesn’t really think it through until he does it and then oh shit, his heart is pounding—

“Oh, yup cool,” Steve says. “That’s—yeah, wow, that’s it? Huh. I need some air.”

“From your own house?” Dustin says, to the front door already slamming shut.

And Eddie’s eyes are wide and shiny, like, did I fuck up, and it takes all of Dustin’s self control to not roll his eyes and slam his face into his book.

Then he softens a bit, remembers looking out into the audience and seeing Steve silently crying while Eddie sang You have murdered me.

“You’re so dumb,” Dustin tells Eddie as gently as he can. “You’re lucky I love you.”

“Uh.” Eddie blinks. “Did I—should I…?”

Dustin sighs wearily, slings his backpack over his shoulder. And he has a parting shot of his own:

“I’m not waiting through another production for you two to get your shit together.”

[epiphainie]

I completely agree with you in that there are many bad faith interpretations of tommy and buck and tommy’s relationship. I don’t know if this one I’m about to share would necessarily be a bad faith interpretation but I’d like your take on it. In the scene where buck comes out to eddie, eddie says to buck “this changes nothing between us” and buck responds with something along the lines of “uh good, that’s a relief”. I’ve seen a lot of people interpret buck’s facial expressions as not showing just relief but relief mixed disappointment because a part of buck wanted things to change between them, in the romantic sense, he just doesn’t realize it. I do agree that buck’s expression as he says the words is interesting but I don’t personally think it has anything to do with him harbouring romantic feelings for eddie. for me it felt like one of those moments where you dread the reaction for so long, that when you finally face the thing and open up, even if the other person’s reaction is positive, it takes a minute for you to really internalise it and let yourself believe it.

Another moment that people often talk about from this scene is reaction to buck saying he can’t stop thinking about tommy. People often say eddie’s facial expression shows some sort of disappointment but again, I don’t know if that’s it? again, it is an interesting expression so I get why people would pause and focus for a minute but to me, it reads as eddie searching for a moment to give his honest advice to buck in the scenario.

Anyway, I’d love your thoughts on those particular moments and how you see them. Again, I’m not saying that the interpretations people are making of that scene in relation to buddie are necessarily in bad faith. I know it’s fun to analyze and interpret scenes in ways that you enjoy and I’d never want people to stop doing that. I just feel like Oliver and Tim have been very clear in that they do not want to tell a story where a guy comes out and is in love with his best friend and if buck was truly disappointed in hearing eddie say nothing’s going to change between them post buck’s coming out, that would be a quite bold contradiction.

Hi anon!

I'm not sure if you actually meant to send this to me because I'm kind of the exact opposite of a person who engages in the practice of reverse-engineering actors' faces to find deep secret meanings that doesn't actually exist in the script. I think it's a slippery slop of a fan practice where if you go "haha he looks jealous here" and want to make it gay in your fantasy world and are capable of compartmentalizing that from the actual text, it's great! If you look at it like it's subtext that is meant to one day come to surface, as some sort of proof that this is not the actual story, you're either too deep in your world that you treat these characters like they have agencies and thoughts and feelings and are not, yknow, fictional - or that actors are making the conscious choice to layer their performances with breadcrumbs for a plot that doesn't exist at the time.

I've seen all these arguments with almost every scene this season. Eddie's face when Tommy enters the bachelor party. Buck's face when Bobby says Tommy is good for him. Bobby's face when he says Tommy is good for Buck. Eddie's smile when they enter the hospital room. Most of these are insignificant and the others have in-text explanation (Yeah, Bobby smiles weirdly in that scene. Guess what, he's kind of planning to kill himself). And like I said, if people want to read these in a pro-Buddie sense and go do fandom stuff with it, that's great. But we all know this fandom is taken over by the question of "will Buck and Eddie happen?" so everyone who's not even doing this in bad faith (I don't think all do) are looking at it in "does this support canon romantic Buddie?" lenses. So much of shipping Buddie is about speculating for the next episode, next season, next whatever that I think it's so easy to find yourself on that slippery slop where you fit every shot, face, editing choice to your interpretation. There's also the sunk cost fallacy at play here - once you do it for so long, it's hard to give up on the belief that it'll happen.

I think both Oliver and Ryan great actors - and that scene is one of my favorites in the season - but no, I don't think there's more to their faces than what they're given to play. Which is as all of them mentioned a billion times, a scene of a guy nervously coming out as queer to his best friend and receiving support. If I'm wrong and the rest of this fandom is right and the production/writers/showrunners are actually fully married to the idea of canon romantic Buddie but The Powers That Be are keeping gay Eddie in the closet as if he's a real person and they're the evil step-mother, and come S10 Buck realizes he's been in love with his bff all along, then yeah in-text, that would recontextualize all their performances. It still wouldn't change what the writers' intention has been with the text as it exists today or be proof that Oliver and Ryan are making acting choices for a hypothetical future SL.

[kiragecko]

cherrystainedknuckles

I guess the only problem with being asked to take a “marie kondo approach” is that in order to find any fanfic that appears to be based in actual canon timeline and plot points and characterization (which does exist, and I’m not sure why fanon fans seem insistent that it doesn’t), I literally have to search for hours. I’m not joking, I consistently make fic rec lists, and I have to search for hours and hours for actual canonical basis. same thing with character tags on tumblr.

I’m not saying fanon fans have to stop enjoying fanon or making up their own content. I’m just saying that when the tags used for both fanon tim drake and canon tim drake are the same tag it just becomes incredibly annoying sometimes, and I understand why people who like to engage with canon (me, often) become frustrated

-

I have definitely had periods where I got incredibly frustrated with fanon! Around 2019, I was wondering if I needed to leave the Batfandom, because it had been so long since I read a new fic where the characters felt 'right'.

-

But, if you're willing to, I'd like you to consider what you mean when you divide 'fanon' from 'canon'. Because I struggle to find a hard line between the two, for several reasons:

1. Fandom is transformative. Every fanfic is going to have some interpretation of the source material. The line between what is too much interpretation and what is acceptable is different for every person. For me, I find it can even vary based on writing style or other odd things - lighthearted fic can have more noncanonical stuff in it than heavier fic, and still seem true to canon.

2. 'Canon' is subjective. I do not consider the movies or video games to be 'canon', and it annoys me when things from those creep into the fic I'm reading. (I'm okay with SOME Battinson.) Some aspects of the cartoons are okay. I consider precrisis Jason Todd to be an alternate reality version, but Donna's precrisis origins are more canonical than the dumb retcons. Wayne Family Adventures isn't my main version of the characters, but I'm not bothered if some elements show up in my stories. I'm ignoring most of the nu52, but I like Duke and I'm still watching this new Lian to see what happens. I doubt your divisions are identical to mine.

(Also, some things that I think of as 'fanon' have shown up in nu52 canon! I do not accept them as any more canon because of this.)

3. Most 'fanon' is based on canon. Canon Tim has weird sleep habits. 90s Dick is really lighthearted and joking around some characters in ways similar to fanon. Dick can canonically not be trusted to take care of himself if his mental health gets low enough. Jason likes classical literature. Etc.

These are exaggerated and/or twisted in a lot of fic, but where is the line where they stop being canon? I wouldn't bat an eye at a lot of this stuff, if it didn't show up SO OFTEN.

4. Most 'fanon fans' do know some canon. What line are you going to set where it will be 'enough'. And are they allowed to mention parts of the canon they haven't read yet? Is anyone allowed to talk about Dick's early Robin days, or only the tiny amount of people who have read the golden age stuff? A lot of the 'mistakes' I see are obviously made by people who have read ABOUT canon, but don't know quite how it fits together.

5. 'Canon' is FULL of contradictions. Yes, there are canon events. Yes, there is characterization that is consistent across 3/4s of comics. But. I'm still working on my sidekick timeline. I've devoted days to figuring out ages and passage of time. I've spent over a decade trying to figure out Jason Todd's motivations, and why Tim treats him the way he does. I've read all the 90s and early 2000s CANONICAL character assassination of Jason.

I spent years thinking that Donna's death was almost as foundational as Jason's, only to later discover that I had just happened to read the specific comics that focused on the fallout, and she only stayed dead for a short time. That happens to fans ALL THE TIME! We read a character summarizing an event we haven't directly read, and just accept it as what happened. But characters have biases, and not all writers care about accuracy.

-

I've read some Tim Drakes that I consider to be almost entirely 'fanon'. And quite a few that were so scarily 'canon' that I got chills. (Not all of which were similar to each other.) But the vast, vast majority have fallen somewhere in the middle.

I definitely do not want the responsibility of deciding which ones count as 'canon'! And I think I would strongly dislike anyone who tried to decide for me.

Being frustrated is logical, and I empathize. But the original post was about the impossible expectations some fans feel. The expectation to read thousands of comics, synthesize all the contradictions, and come to conclusions that match the 'true fans'. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to be complaining about.

If that's what some fans are experiencing, of course they're not going to want to engage with canon! There's no way for them to succeed, so why should they even try?

When you join THAT conversation to discuss your frustration about fanon, it strengthens that perception. When you call them 'fanon fans' it emphasizes their belief that you don't think they belong. And rather than trying to change, it's more likely that they'll double down. Canon is full of gatekeepers, so they'll avoid it.