#why is Tim doing this? I don't know. It's up for interpretation

[abisalli]

A long overdue ko-fi for the dear @darlinglissa !! Thank you for being so very patient with me <3 You get: Tim being an annoying little brother to Dick (because I've been reading a lot of 90s/early 2000s comics lately)

[acerikus]

Someone being extremely annoying in the replies of my flowey and clover gif and I'm running out of patience 😭

[brittlebutch]

a lot of people seem to use Entry #61 as 'proof' for the crux of the "Brian didn't care about Tim, he was Taking Advantage of Tim's conditions and Forcing him to work as part of totheark" thing, but honestly when you think about it there's no possible way Brian could have possibly orchestrated that series of events, like you almost have to interpret that as a baffling group of coincidences

[ghostbsuter]

Damian was 10 when he was shipped off to his father.

He was 10 when he finally decided enough was enough, packed his stuff, called Mara, and the ball went rolling.

The moment Talia left the mansion, the DNA test confirmed, and Bruce emotionally compromised, did he finally move.

He'd stared his father down, felt nothing when he stood up and mild annoyance bloomed when his father asked– demanded– where he was going.

"You're a fool if you believe I will stay here." He spat, eyening the man in disdain.

It became very apparent that Damian wasn't what Bruce thought he'd be, what Talia thought he was.

"Your mother entrusted me with your safety–"

"I don't need protection. Mother wouldn't care if I stayed or not." He blinks. "Where is the cave? I wish to use the computer, I have people to contact."

Reluctantly, Bruce shows him the way, questions of who and why, and the plans he apparently had were asked.

Damian answers with vague wordings and enough open spaces for interpretation. Words greatest detective, he can figure it out himself without damian spelling it out for him.

When they do arrive in the batcave, Tim Drake— Robin— was sitting at the computer.

Huffing, Damian shoved the entire chair away from the table, taking its place and started typing.

"W— hey! What—? Who?" Tim looked between Bruce and Damian, despite being sleep deprived his eyes caught on the similarities, mouth dry and mind calculating.

"Does Dick know?" Is all he asks, leaning back and watching the younger boy work.

"Not yet."

A heavy sigh.

"Silence," the boy huffs, annoyed. "I'll have to make a call."

Glaring daggers, he pulls out a old burner phone, pressing the single number saved inside and waits.

"Damian."

"Hello, brother."

('Oh. Did he have another?' Tim wonders, watching Batman's face, blank like a paper sheet. Nothing. It feels like all his efforts of bringing the man back were just flushed.)

—

Or in simpler words:

Danyal al Ghul, the first successor of the demons head, born with his twin Athanasia al Ghul, to be the future of the league.

They were reborn with their former memories, stuck in place, constantly watched and trained. Manipulated. Weaponized.

All for a man playing immortal.

They'd only started planning when two more children came into the picture, Damian and Mara Al Ghul.

Danyal now Daniel "Danny" and Athanasia now Eleanor "Ellie" Nightingale took matters into their own hands and separated to take the kids in and end this.

End the league. End the cycle of whatever this, this cult is, and take over.

In many universes, Ra's al Ghul does not die, always returns, wielding his people like mere weapons.

In this universe, Danyal al Ghul is acknowledged as a traitor, killer of the Demons head and Older Brother, borderline father even, to his tiny brother Damian al Ghul.

In this universe, he raises Damian instead of Talia, shows him the cracks of this careful manipulated picture and listens when Ellie tells of her travels to this tiny child with a sad sad fate.

In this universe, Ellie takes in their tiny cousin, shielding her from the cruel eyes of a man not worthy. She trains her, shows her the ropes and takes her along when she leaves.

In this universe, Damian al Ghul and Mara al Ghul live a good live, protected by the twins of old souls and have a somewhat normal if not very complicated childhood.

[batpham-discord-highlights]

A PSA for tagging DPxDC Content

This post will include:

The proper tags to use when posting

Why we use them and not the parent fandom tags

A chart of key words to help you filter

Image descriptions under the cut

We know we can't control who tags what, and how tumblr chooses to work, or not work, but these are just some general guidelines to help everyone find or block our content.

What DPxDC Tags should you use? 

General: dpxdc always

More Specific Tags: Batpham, dpxjl, dpxyj

For ALL ships please add “ship” after the ship name. For example: Dead Tired ship, Dead on Main ship, Double Edged Sword ship

What Tags should you NOT use?

Parent Fandom Tags: Danny Phantom, dp, Phandom, Phanart, Phanfic, DC Comics, DC Universe, dc, Batfamily, Batfam, Superfam 

Variations of General Tags: dp x dc, dcxdp, dc x dp, dp x jl, dp x yj, dp/dc, dc/dp, 

For ships please don’t tag JUST the ship name. For example: Dead Tired, Dead on Main, Double Edged Sword

As a general fandom tag we are using dpxdc, WITH NO SPACES.

Why no spaces? Tumblr is so glitchy it’s baffling a very functional website. Because of this we’ve received reports that sometimes if a post is tagged "dp x dc" or “dp/dc” then, even when the tag is blocked, the posts will still show up in the individual "dp" and "dc" tags. That isn’t cool.

Why is it important to tag separately?

dpxdc is a big crossover. The crossover fandom has been rapidly growing over the past year. The crossover fandom drowns out the original dp/danny phantom fandom by a lot, especially for people who may be interested in dpxdc but also want to enjoy regular phandom content. By not using the dp and danny phantom tags, it helps a lot to not drown out the main fandom's inhabitants and content. dpxdc as a fandom tends to pump out a lot of content (which is amazing), but that means that we need to be careful to not suffocate the main fandoms. "Why can't I tag the danny phantom or batfam main fandoms? it's a crossover" -- yeah, it is a crossover, but it's a crossover that is huge (especially in comparison to danny phantom) and dpxdc has taken over the main fandom tags. It's causing a lot of animosity and tension on both sides.

Additionally, the crossover (like most fandoms) comes with some common characterizations, tropes, aus, and concepts that tend to be interpretations that do not link back to the main fandom well. While fandoms come up with their own characterizations, tropes, aus, and concepts, it's important to know when a crossover fandom has existed long enough to establish its own sets of common themes that the main fandom may want nothing to do with.

This doesn’t mean you have to pick between dpxdc and its parent fandoms, like Danny Phantom or DC or Batfam. Indeed, by NOT tagging dpxdc with its parent fandoms, you are ensuring that people who want a space for dpxdc and a space for its parent fandoms can have both! We don’t have to pick sides! But in order to have both, we need to tag dpxdc content with a tag we can search (that is, dpxdc), AND we need to make sure we’re NOT tagging the parent fandoms (such as, danny phantom).

What if I don't want to see dpxdc content?

Here {link} is an in depth guide on how to block tags and filter certain content from appearing on your dash. We also ask that you please keep any venting out of the dpxdc.

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Thank you!!! 🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇👻🦇

[image description: A table with 3 categories, “DC Content”, “DPxDC content” and “DP content. 

Under “DC Content” are listed: dc comics, dc, batfam, Young Justice Cartoon, Young Justice , Teen Titans, Teen Titans 2003, Batman, Gotham, Bruce Wayne, Justice League, Superman, Clark Kent, Metropolis , Jason Todd, Red Hood, Tim Drake, Red Robin, Damian Wayne, Lazarus Pit, Lazarus Water, Ras al Ghul, Watchtower, Constantine, John Constantine, Robin dc.

Under “DPxDC content” are listed: dpxdc, dp x dc, dcxdp, dc x dp, dp x dc crossover, dp x dc prompt, dp x dc fanfic, dp x dc au, dp x yj, dpxyj, dp x jl, dpxjl, dpxdc event, Batpham, Danny Fenton/Dick Grayson, Death Defying, Danny Fenton/Jason Todd, Dead on Main ship, Danny Fenton/Cassandra Cain, Dead Silent, Danny Fenton/Tim Drake, Brain Dead, Dead Tired, Danny Fenton/Damian Wayne, Dead Serious, Jazz Fenton/Jason Todd, Anger Management ship, Hardcover, Jazz Fenton/Cassandra Cain, Silent Jasmines, Dani Phantom/Damian Wayne, Serious Chaos, Double Edged ship, Dani Phantom/Mar'i Grayson, Space Princess, Demon Twins.

Under “DP content” are listed: Danny Phantom, Phandom, Phanart, Phanfic, Danny Fenton, Sam Manson, Tucker Foley, Vlad Masters, Vlad Plasmius, Ghost King Danny, Ghost Zone, Infinite Realms, A Glitch in Time, Amity Park, Nasty Burger, Everlasting Trio, Badger Cereal, Dan Phantom, Valerie Gray, Team Phantom, Jazz Fenton, Clockwork, Skulker, Fenton, Jack Fenton, Maddie Fenton, Eldritch danny, Fright Knight. end]

[rubydubydoo122]

could you talk more about fanon vs canon tim drake? i havent gotten too far into the comics yet but have seen a lot of him (mis?)characterized by others

Just a preface, I'm not gonna crucify any Tim fans who find themselves writing these tropes, because it is fandom, and everyone's allowed their own interpretations of the character, I'm just personally not a fan of these takes on Tim because in my mind they just don't make sense for the character. If anyone has differing opinions, feel free to (politely) explain them to me, because I'm happy to hear them.

Ok, so much like Fanon Dick Grayson, there are two versions of fanon Tim Drake.

There's version A.) where where he's one minor inconvienience away from becoming a supervillain (I understand where this one comes from and I don't HATE it) and there's version B.) where he was criminally neglected as a kid and is infantalized (This version of Tim I Loathe)

I'll start with version A. I see where it comes from. Mainly the Red Robin 2009 run, but we have to remember that Tim was grieving pretty much everyone close to him during that era. He was being self destructive because of that grief, and yeah, grief changes a person, but Tim is the type of character who would still turn out good despite all the hurt handed to him. Oh! But Gun Batman-- Tim actively chose against being that. He would rather kill himself than let himself become a version of Batman who went against everything Batman stood for. I know there are multiple storylines where Tim meets and evil future version of himself, but those versions would constantly be like a weight on him to be good. All in all, if I had to choose between the fanon Tim Drakes, I would choose villain Tim Drake, as long as it's done in more of a character-study way rather than a 'He deserves to go evil, as a treat' because it's an interesting take with the right motives.

Now onto Version B. Loser Tim Drake. The reason I Loathe this version of Tim is because it usually involves Characters Assassination of the characters around him. Ok, so do I agree that Tim Drake was somewhat neglected? Yes. But goddamit, the way I see Jack and Janet portrayed, you would think that they were running from the feds or something. They were good people, just bad parents. Maybe a little immature to raise a child, but it wasn't to the point where they would probably need to call CPS. Neglect isn't black and white, and the Drakes fell into that grey-- which I personally believe to be a lighter shade. You do have to remember that a lot of Tim's introduction was written in the 90's where parenting styles were a lot different compared to Today. Still, they sent him to boarding school, meaning they made sure that some form of adult was taking care of Tim AND a lot of people try to make Jack Drake out to be the villain for stopping Tim from being Robin, and blackmailing Bruce for it, but... It's What Any Sane Parent Would Do? I'm 18, but I know if I ever had a kid, and then fell into a coma and then woke up and found out that my Kid was fighting crime in one of the most CRIME RIDDEN CITIES alongside my middle-aged neighbor who dresses up like a furry I WOULD CALL THE FUCKING COPS. But enough about the Drakes. Because not only does Loser Tim Drake assassinate their character, but why is 17 year old Tim the victim when it comes to 10 year old Damian-- "Oh he tried to kill him' They're both trained by assassins. They're both trained. They're both Trained. Why Is a Junior/Senior in high school hurt by the actions of a 5th grader. I have a similar age gap with my younger brother. We have had pretty brutal fights and the next day we're fine. I'm not going to get into "Attack on Titans Tower AUs" but I will say this, Every Time I Start To Read One Of Those, I Lose Half Of My Hair Because of How Bad the Characterization Of Both Jason And Tim are. Please, Read, The, Comic. Jason Wasn't Trying To Kill Tim. If He Was, Tim would Be Dead. ANd Tim was Snarking Jason Through The Entire Confrontation. Lastly, Why Has DICK 'BAMF' GRAYSON TURNED INTO TIM"S NUMBER ONE OP????!!!! DIck IS LITERALLY TiM's ChiLDHOOD HEro!!!!! NoT BAtMAN, DICK GRAYSON. And like, not only that, Dick and Tim are the most brotherly. I'm Begging, Please go read a 90's comic. Why is it, the only time I see Dicks Manipulative side in fanon, It's in opposition to Tim? I bet it's bc of Teen Titans Go. I bet the only Tim and Dick interaction they've seen is TTG Robin going "No BOdy cARes AbOuT TiM DrAke"

Sorry that ended up becoming rant-y, and less objective. Since actually reading comics, fanon Tim Drake gets on my nerves.

[justchillandshipit]

More thoughts:

I linked a post below that has me thinking about Tommy's actions & Eddie's place in the narrative. In retrospect, I 100% believe Tommy knows and understands that Eddie is likely going to be Buck's last. (as much as anybody can know this sort of thing.) I know Tim and Oliver said Eddie had nothing to do with the obstacles in Buck's relationship, but I think that was a partial truth on their part. Technically, Buck does spiral because of Abby and #stagefoureddiediaz has talked about the way Buck is still stuck on the hamster wheel. I think both of these things are part of the obstacles mentioned in one of Oliver's interviews. However, if you look only at those things, you overlook the Pink Eddie in the room. While I agree that Eddie didn't interfere or try to stop Buck & Tommy from being together, his friendship with Buck has remained a constant. (see the link at the very bottom for more about Eddie in the narrative.) If you check out Buddielifer's post, several good points demonstrate the breakup was about Eddie. I'll try to avoid repeating what was said there as I explain. My opinion does differ on a few small points, but I'll get to that later.

Ok. I'm going to talk about Tommy a little but stick with me. This is a Buddie post. I promise, and I do have a point. I do believe Buck was attracted to Tommy, not because he had some great destiny to be the love of Buck's life, but because he did a few really cool things while helping to save Bobby & Athena's lives. Plus, Tommy did it in the coolest way possible. Helicopter pilots are cool, or they would be if they weren't dating one-half of your favorite ship. lol. Before the kiss, Buck wasn't self-aware enough to fully engage with his sexuality, I suspect that he handled his attraction to Tommy the way he handled it with other men before we knew him as a firefighter.

As we saw in a flashback, when Buck met a man he felt attracted to, he processed those feelings by befriending him. It was the same with Tommy. That is why he was at the hangar that day. When he offered to buy Tommy a beer, I truly think Buck thought he was making a new friend. If you think about it, you can see this was a pattern for Buck. He did have a meltdown over Eddie when they first met (but with Eddie, bigger things were and are still in play) It doesn't change the fact that once Buck got past his initial jealousy or whatever that was, he threw himself all in with Eddie. It was part of his pattern and part of #stagefour's hamster wheel. (Endgame will have Buck get off the wheel and look around. The person standing there was never part of the wheel, but the person waiting for him to stop and get off of it.)

The situation with Tommy is probably closer to how Buck reacted to his friend who wanted Buck as a sperm donor. Buck actually followed that 'friend' to Peru. I have a post from a while back where I discuss Buck sending mixed signals. In his mind, he is making a friend, but he is also unconsciously flirting. Tommy was the first to push through and just kiss Buck. I don't think this was nefarious so much as an attempt to interpret the signals Buck was sending. (I'm sure many see Tommy as having bad intentions but stick with me. I'm trying to put him into the context where Tim claimed he wanted him to be seen. Tommy was supposed to be a mentor or a more experienced man helping Buck navigate this side of himself.) As a teacher, Tommy did help him navigate, but he also let Buck set the pace. Although never shown, we know Buck is a very sexual being, and the deleted scene with Tommy, Hen, and Karen confirmed that Tommy was just trying to keep up with him.

But I digress. Buck's intention to befriend Tommy ended the exact moment that Eddie showed up at the hangar with a huge smile on his face. Stoic Eddie who does not show his emotions was smiling hugely. Even though this is from Buck's perspective and he is an unreliable narrator, it is plausible to me that Eddie would be excited to go to a live fight in Vegas. Oliver and Tim have talked a lot over the past few weeks about how Buck spirals. When Eddie left with Tommy, Buck began to spiral in a way that we have never seen before or since. He was absolutely unhinged with jealousy. There is no way that Buck, who didn't even ask about Tommy's dating history until six months into the relationship, was that insane to get the attention of a man he has known for a few days or weeks. Now that we are pulling in new material from the current season, it isn't even remotely believable that Buck's reaction was about Tommy.

If Buck had experienced some sort of love-at-first-sight moment with Tommy, then he would have asked Tommy about his past at the beginning of the relationship. In fact, people entering into something serious generally ask about past partners in the first few weeks of getting to know each other or before sex. The fact that Buck didn't, is a change in pattern for him. Buck typically throws himself all in and then when things go wrong, he doesn't know how he got there. (Also part of the hamster wheel.) However, I attribute the difference this time to the fact that, subconsciously, Buck knows what he's feeling. He can use his body. (borderline sex addict). However, he can't bring himself to share with Tommy what he already shares with Eddie, but you know our unaware cowboy can't see it yet.

At the hangar, Tommy didn't have a feel for Buck yet. However, by the end of the Vegas trip, I think he had picked up a good idea from Eddie that there was something there. (not because Eddie has made some sort of confession, but because I'm confident that Eddie talked about Buck nonstop. I'm hoping that we get some sort of confirmation of this in the current season. I don't want it to be forgotten.) At any rate, whatever conclusions Tommy drew from his time in Vegas with Eddie and the time they spent hanging out afterward didn't bother him enough to refuse to date Buck. I do think Tommy was longing for the family and support he could see Buck has with the 118, but I don't think he was ever planning a wedding in his head. In fact, I know he wasn't. That's part of why he broke up with Buck.

Sidenote: (Thanks to StageFourEddieDiaz, for pointing out how Buck failed to understand the mission from Josh's speech because this is what caused Buck to shift from not letting Tommy get too close to asking Tommy to move in with him.) Until the conversation with Josh, Buck was actively shutting Tommy out of anything other than sex and possibly learning the ins and outs of the LGBTQ community.

Again, in the beginning, this didn't bother Tommy. He knew what Buck needed, and as he stated a few times during the sixth episode, Buck was hot and fun. If you need examples of Buck shutting Tommy out, I point you to anything that happened in the Halloween episode. I'm not saying Buck didn't care about Tommy at all, but he was holding back. The look on Buck's face as Josh asked about his feelings really said it all. I think this is probably why Josh was a little shy of the mark when giving his speech about comphet. Josh had to give a long list of, "Do you feel "this or that" for your boyfriend of six months," before he finally hit on something that Buck did feel. I don't want to get off topic or repeat too much from the linked post, I just wanted to illustrate that the jealousy from Buck's coming out episode was 100% for Eddie and that it was something that Tommy realized before entering the relationship.

I know there will be some disagreement here, but I also feel like Tommy's feelings for Buck actually were on the verge of changing, and he hadn't expected that. When they were standing at the grave, Buck gave his eulogy directed to Billy Boils. Tommy's face went through a series of changes. First, he seemed annoyed or concerned. I couldn't quite tell, but the more Buck talked, the more you could see of our Buck. The guy with a huge heart who can empathize with the skeletal remains of a criminal. I'll link the clip for you to judge. What Buck had to say to Billy was more open and revealed more about Buck's character than anything he had been saying to Tommy over the past six months. It was a small scene, but one that probably came back to Tommy when Buck suggested moving in together.

It was scenes like this one combined with Tommy's exclusion from group chat, etc., that probably helped to remind him that Buck's feelings six months ago were not about him and nothing had changed despite Buck's suggestion that he move in. Tommy's insecurities took over and reminded him what the inevitable end was going to be for them. He was the first not the last.

For the past six months, he's known that Eddie was between them, but you could see how comfortable he was with it. He didn't seem annoyed by Eddie's presence at all. I disagree with either Tim or Oliver when they try to play up that Tommy was Eddie's friend and this was natural. Eddie and Buck met Tommy at the same time, and Tommy was trying to shoot his shot by taking Eddie to Vegas. I don't know what was discussed between Eddie & Tommy during those few weeks where Buck was being left out, but it is clear that whatever conclusion he had drawn from the Vegas trip had been solidified by what happened on the basketball court, so much so that he wanted to apologize to Buck in person. We all know how that went, and I still think that was a good scene.

This brings me to the breakup scene itself. In the end, when Tommy talks about how he didn't see it coming. I don't think he was referring to the breakup. I think he was referring to the feelings he caught close to the end. He thought he would help Buck, provide a safe space for Buck to explore that he personally didn't have, and have some fun with a hot young thing, but he let it go too far. (His reasons are pretty much part of what Tim has said in interviews.) I don't think Tommy realized how much he had gotten caught up in the fantasy of Buck until Buck asked him to move in with him. I do think he's sincere when he says his heart would end up broken because, despite his feelings, he still understands there is something between Buck and Eddie even if they don't.

(One side note. I agree with Buck that first and last can be the same thing. I don't buy into the belief that you have to be with dozens of sexual partners, but I also don't think that would have been the case with Buck. He is a sexual character, and he's openly curious. I know people were mad about the interview where Oliver talked about letting Buck F#ck, but I think that would be in character for an upset Buck who was just dumped. It is less about his sexuality than it is about his abandonment issues and neglect trauma. That's my take anyway. We'll see what Tim does with it. I do think the part of Buck that craves monogamy already belongs to someone else, and the di was cast before Tommy came into his life, and we are back again to the hamster wheel.)

If you stuck with me this long, thank you. I know there are few, if any, fans of Tommy around here so I appreciate that you were willing to objectively view him the way Tim kept trying to present him. I'm tired and I'm pretty sure I rambled a couple of times, but I do understand Tommy is a problematic character. I consider that to be a writing issue that never got a satisfying resolution. I'm equally aware some people hate him simply because he was with Buck. I'm not doing a lot of judging these days because I already know how unreasonable I'm going to be over Eddie being with another man. After seven seasons of subtext, they are already in love. These other relationships are like cheating. lol I'm not so secretly hoping that if Eddie needed a "first" he got it when he was a teenager or when he was in Afghanistan.

I can tell I'm going to be bad because when I see posts about Eddie sleeping with a priest, I want to scream into a pillow and pretend that I'm flipping over furniture and tossing chairs across the room. I just can't be reasonable. I would never attack the actors or writers though. That's not me. My jealousy is on Buck's behalf, and my bad behavior remains entirely inside my head. I don't know what they'll do with Eddie, but they are going to need a chat group to make sure Eddie's boyfriends do not meet with Buck's subconscious mind.

Click here to see the meta on Eddie Haunting the Narrative from #buddielifers.

[cjlouwho]

What made me furious and decide not to watch the rest of S8 (at least live, until and unless they fix bucks storyline) is the goddamn fact that Tim literally did this to fuck with the general audience who were finally getting back on track and getting interested in Bucks storyline like goddamn.

If you shot 8x06, BEFORE 8x05, why make 8x05 the way you made it???????? Just make Tommy a bit more of an asshole??? ((I'm not even kidding!!!)) Like you COULD have made him be dismissive of Bucks obsession with the 'curse', you could have made him feel bitter and slightly projecting on Buck's found family ((a throw away line like how 'oh didn't know you had a group text, frown)) something, ANYTHING that would have made us feel a bit more prepared for 8x06 and Buck's 1.0 era??! ((And btw YES it is biphobic to suggest that bi people need to sleep around to figure out what they want, for god's sake Oliver, just don't do episodic interviews anymore I BEG)).

But instead, we get sweet, understanding Tommy, we get fluffs pillow softly and talks as a non believer to a ghost Tommy, we get excited for love again Buck, and THEN you do this?????!!!

Unforgivable. Fuck you Tim. You've just told millions of people in a shitty af political climate that older gay men who struggle with their need for survival and loneliness that they're gonna end up alone if they date a bi man. Sorry that's AN interpretation. It is LOUSY representation. It is LOUSY and cruel writing. You messed with in a too big way on this one. So. Yes. Lost this viewer. Peace.

Yes to all!! They could have made Tommy more standoffish, could have had Eddie at the funeral instead. Or, if they had to do a breakup, have it be from Buck’s side. Because, out of the two (in 805) the love and adoration came mostly from Tommy. They did the whole thing just to be shitty.

[krunklys]

Why Batcest is a Thing

I was talking with my friend the other day and while she's not a batcest shipper, she asked me why I was. I said that I don't think I take it to the same extremes some other people do, a few things that aren't a personal favorite of mine would be any of the REALLY younger kids with Bruce or say Dick and Damian. It's mostly the age gap that gets to me.

But she asked why I liked JayTim and I had a time explaining it to her and I wanted to bring it here as a sort of explanation, I suppose for people who might not enjoy batcest ships.

first of all, the name. Batcest is... an interesting name. A lot of arguments you'll come across is that they're not actually related, or there are some fanfics out there for aus where one of them (most commonly Tim or Jason) were never apart of the Batfamily in the first place. Of course, there are some where they are! Because, at the end of the day, in Canon they do share a family. But the implication of it being incest can be a real no no for people, even if it's not. Dick wasn't adopted into the family for quiet some time (I think he was adopted around the same time Tim was but I'm not a 100% sure, not to mention he acted as his ward and then aged out of it), Jason was adopted but after his return to life has regularly denied his part in the family (Look at literally any Red Hood Comic, though I do prefer to look at the New 52 Red Hood and The Outlaws for his feelings towards Bruce and the Wayne's in general), Tim was adopted but was later emancipated (in Red Robin), and Damian has a blood relation to Bruce only. Morally, there can be a problem with it but for mow shippers, since this is fiction, the lack of blood relation means there's no problem. Remember! They're not real people. Adoptive relationships, or pseudo familial ones, they don't see these relations as any reason to not ship them! And in later points, I go into why. And if people really had a problem with this pseudo familiar relationships, take for example Tim and Jason who have never once lives under the same roof nor have any legal connection to each other through Bruce, then on principal alone they should have a problem with Cassandra and Stephanie - Cass is adopted by Bruce, yes, but Bruce has also claimed Stephanie as part of the family and includes her in family talks. Does that not make them family members? No. They're friends or girlfriends, depending on how you want to interpret them.

Secondly, the canon relationships that any of the Bats have with their partners. I could go through all of them and explain the nuance of the relationships but I'll simplify for the sake of the post. In Bruce's sake, whether it be Talia or Selina or for the more fanon ones like Clark and Min Khoa (i think that's how you spell that, I'm not sure though!), there's no denying that in Canon these relationships don't pan out. Talia and Bruce have moral problems, even if she was originally a spy and didn't kill, and Selina and Bruce have an entire history of problems. For Dick, himself and Barbara are much of the same. A sweet beginning until something comes in to ruin it and they break up. Take, for example, the newest Nightwing run (on webtoon and not technically canon, i know). Barbara breaks up with Dick because she feels disconnected from him and like he's still preforming for her, but they have no conversation about this prior to it. With Kori, I'm not as knowledgeable about why they broke up, all I know is that they did and it was ugly. Another example is Tim! Himself and Stephanie didn't work out because she couldn't trust him, due to now knowing his identity, and then she faked her death, causing the distrust between them both. These are only a few examples of how relationships work out for Bats and in my personal opinion I think it's because of a ack of understanding for the characters, their love interests I mean. And in fanon, partners for Batfamily members tend to be washed down - Kon acts as an emotional crutch for Tim, Roy has morals he simply does not stand with anymore in Canon in JayRoy fics, Barbara is an anecdote in DickBarbara fics, and Selina is barely featured in Bruce fics. Not to mention the simple lack of wlw fics in the fandom that aren't background.

Due to this, the shipping of Batfamily members together is only natural. The characters share similar morals or in the case of Tim have such complicated morals that in fandom you can pick and choose what to use. They're fleshed out, have a canon relationship with multiple layers to it, and complete each other in many ways. In comparison to some of the fandom favorite ships like SuperBat or BirdFlash, where we only see a two dimensional aspect of their relationship recently, then the shipping of characters like Jason and Tim or Tim and Dick together is a natural conclusion to reach.

And Finally, History and old characteristics. It was mentioned before in another post that I'll try to hunt down for you guys and link in a repost because it will be WORLDS better than what I could write and have much more research thrown into it than this does, but originally there were a lot of implications under their relationships, specifically Bruce and Dick. Wardships programs were used by a lot of gay people when gay marriage was illegal, so were adult adoptions. It was to have a legal connection in whatever way possible. And I think in a really old comic, Dick has a dream where he's living in the manor as an adult still with Bruce. Bruce has a portrait of them together. They eat breakfast together in their pajamas or underwear, and spend all their time together. Batman regularly saves Robin over civilians and for his relationships, sometimes they wouldn't work out simply because of Dick. It worked this way for many Superheroes and their sidekicks in the "golden age" of comics! Batman has always had queer undertones since his creation but adding Robin into the mix just proved this. Like it or not, Bruce and Dick had sexual and romantic implications to their relationship since the character was first introduced in the 40s.

As for Old characteristics, in the New 52 i feel as though some of the characters have been washed down do their base characteristics. They lack depth in a way some characters don't or in a way some do, particularly in fanon. Dick's possessive originally and I see people talking about his anger issues as a child a lot, especially in comparison to Jason's Robin run, but either way - the characters have changed throughout the years. That doesn't mean that people can't cling on to their old relationships or even their old personalities. People are so fond of making Jason insane and crazy and Hella mean when in recent adaptations, he's a normal vigilante for all intents and purposes. He's not even a crime lord anymore, I'm pretty sure he still owns the Iceberg Lounge. That's all to say that the boys used to be a lot closer than they are now, especially Tim and Dick and Dick and Bruce.

The conclusion to my explanation to her is that batcest is much of the same as any other ships - picking and choosing what to take from canon to put two people together into a relationship that you like. It's a work of fiction and while that's important to remember, it doesn't say anything about you in real life! you don't enjoy real life incest if you like JayTim. That's all to say si that there's reasons behind it that some people like and some people don't. She wasn't swayed by my answer but accepted it since she couldn't deny that the Batfamily has been explored on and their relationships together so much more than their relationships with anyone else, canon or fanon.

[faeriekit]

hi! hope you're having an okay day. I was wondering if you had any fic recs, specifically with Matches Malone and/or identity shenanigans? I also really enjoy those fics :D hope you have a good day!

Identity shenanigans or Matches Malone?? Uhhhhhhhhhhh (*immediate panic*).

So the thing is, it really really really depends on what you, stranger, are comfortable with, and what you enjoy?? There are a lot of fics I like, or at least have tried out myself, but there are also a half-dozen that are super content sensitive, especially when it comes to, like, gang stuff and Gotham's underbelly...? I'm going to put a couple things here, but. Uh. I will also recommend just opening the Matches Malone tag on ao3 and applying your own filters, since I don't know any of your hard lines! There's only like 173 fics in total. Sorting through them is super easy. Have fun and be yourself.

On the other hand, I've got some stuff here:

Matches Malone identity nonsense:

⭐Good girls don't, but I do: Superbat, several undercover identities, gender fuckery (of what nature is up to reader interpretation), Journalist Clark Kent, and first time meetings! Unfinished so far, but super fun with a lot of potential! I am very excited about this one!!

⭐Have I told you about Minnie? Steph and Bruce bonding! Turns out, if you're pretending to be someone else, it's super easy to say nice things about your kids when they're not listening, lol...or are they? 👀

Matches Malone Has Too Many Kids: Man, weird how Matches Malone has as many kids as Brucie Wayne, huh....and boy will he tell you all about what his crime family has been up to! Features Bruce & Family bonding via undercover identities; what could go wrong?

⭐homewrecker: Omegaverse; Red Hood accidentally tells Two Face that Matches Malone (Bruce, undercover,) is his mom. ...Whoops. Now all of Gotham has an opinion on Matches' (Bruce) and Batman's (also Bruce) custody battle over their crime lord son, and new step-mom Bruce Wayne (also also Bruce) is asked to weigh in lmao. Top tier comedy. So dumb. Cannot recommend enough. Every single Bat kid takes the piss. Gotham's undergound is in a tizzy. Bruce is so, so tired.

⭐Under(under)cover: DC x White Collar. Tim, undercover as an ex-con in the government's favorite form of law enforcement, suddenly has to get the detectives around him off his back before his identity is exposed...so obviously pulling out a few Malone family members is a good enough distraction, right? 💀 Pretending you've recently escaped a crime family is totally not an extra burden to your already half-busted cover identity, Tim! There are no possible consequences for this!

Don't Mess with Ma's Boy: Ma's Boy, Metropolis's enforcer for Mafia head Ma Kent, catches a Bat in his back yard. Obviously, the solution is to show him around town and share street food, of course. (SuperBat, with Super Shenanigans lmao)

Other Malone nonsense (Batfam Identities Two, Electric Boogaloo):

Playing with Matches: Batfam-centric secondary identities schtick. You're a Malone! You're a Malone! Red Hood's a Malone?? Everyone's a Malone!! Outside POV from Red Hood's gang and more!

⭐Robbie Malone saves the day & spills secrets: a DC x White Collar undercover op extravaganza, featuring Jason and Dick as our MCs. (TW: does feature fears of sexual assault, nothing onscreen.)

The one who got away: another DC x White Collar fic. Turns out, uh, if you don't tell your new kid that you're the famous Gotham Bats or why one of Gotham's most famous untouchable mob families is coming around to visit all the time, they're going to come to their own conclusions! Those conclusions may not be flattering! They might be scared enough to cut and run, actually! You may have to apologize for making this extremely stressful on them!! ...If they let you back in at all!

Features smut (mostly SuperBat)(There are other ships in the tag they're just not my thing; go explore the tag yourself for other options):

⭐I want to sell what you're buying: Clark Kent, journalist, meets Matches Malone, informant, for a...wilder time than he was expecting to agree to on his trip into Gotham. (TW Fic eventually makes it more obvious that Clark knows who/what he's agreeing to, but it does read on the edge of identity dubcon for a hot minute if you're sensitive to that)

Matches and the Doll: I do love the dynamic of a ne'er do well and his extremely obedient Super as choice of undercover roles, but this is, at the end of the day, all leading up to wild exhibitionist smut FYI

Pretty Reporters Are Always In Need of Saving (title is largely self explanatory) is followed up with by a SuperBat week 2024 fill Good Boys Play with Matches. It's uh. You know. Alley sex and roleplay. Read the warnings.

Recs from the discord (Home of the Apiary Genders!)

(Un)Conventional Date Night: Dp x DC. Matches Malone and two out-of-town scientists tear up the town on their night off!

Your Boy That Was, the Son That Is... More Matches Malone & Red Hood identity angst. What happens when the son recognizes his father, but the man himself cannot?

Art:

Bruce as Matches Malone and Clark Illustration, as presented on ao3!

I think that's all I have time for today...? There are other identity shenanigan fics I love that aren't on here, but this list took me like an hour and a half and there is other writing I'm supposed to get done today...lol. I'm only 181 pages into this unreleased fic! I better get moving! 😜

Thanks for asking!🧡

[bekolxeram]

During this hiatus, other than rewatching S7 for cute moments that we missed and coming up with headconons and new fic ideas, may I suggest going back to actually read/watch/listen to interviews with the cast?

Certain more dedicated members of the fandom tend to overfixate on one single sentence or even word the cast uttered and ignore all context around it. Sure, some of them might came into it with an agenda (like many journalists did sadly) and confirmation bias took care of the rest of it, but at the same time, who has time to read pages of disjointed chat with actors improvising answers without full knowledge of the production side of the show?

I've seen people proving Eddie's queerness by this quote from Lou's interview with the Hollywood Reporter in April:

This alone has been interpreted all sorts of ways, from Ryan not accepting this storyline (which doesn't make him homophobic btw, he could've simply not seen Eddie's story going this way, or he thought he wasn't equipped to do this storyline justice), to Buck's LIs not agreeing to come back because of scheduling conflict, to the writers just thought it was more appropriate for Buck to be queer.

I'm not here to speculate anything, I'm just going to point out earlier in the same interview, Lou also said he always knew this storyline would be with Oliver:

I don't know what's going on here, Lou might have insider information, but it also could be him just speculating over Tommy and Eddie's quickly formed friendship. To my knowledge, Tim has never confirmed that Tommy's queer storyline would be with Eddie before it supposedly fell through. In fact, Tim did say once it felt like Buck's story:

And then there's Lou's supposed dislike of filming make out scenes:

I do agree with him that gratuitous scenes on TV are unnecessary. I can't even count how many times I'm watching TV with my family when a graphic sex scene comes on unprompted, and my family members and I have to try our best to pretend we don't see it. But he also said that he didn't like it only when it didn't add to the story. Like we saw in 7x06, Lou gladly rubbed his face into Oliver's because this is how Buck came out.

There's also the part most people skipped through when Lou talked about the 7x04 kiss:

Lou (and everyone involved in the storyline) doesn't want Tommy to seem predatory. I have no idea if it's a reference to a possible earlier version of the script with an Eddie bi awakening instead of a Buck one. What I'm getting is that Lou and Tim tried to avoid playing into the stereotype of gay men hanging around knowingly straight men just to get into their pants.

And boy was Lou right. If they went for a full make out scene, the fandom discourse would've been so different. Naysayers wouldn't have been latching onto bachelor party costume or daddy issue joke. It would've led to much more serious allegations.

I'm happy it all worked out in universe as well. As we've seen from the past 7 seasons, Buck has no problem getting sexual partners. In the past he tried having physical relationships with women in hopes that it would lead to an emotional one, he also tried intentionally holding off intimacy just because he thought it would get in the way of boding with someone on a humanly level. This is the first time someone picked up Buck's (unintentional?) flirting, decided to break the ambiguity (landing it like a good pilot), gave him a brief peck to test the water, and then left to give Buck time to process his feelings.

Not only was it okay for Buck, it left him wanting more.

And lastly there's the allegedly "Tommy is just Buck's gay mentor to test thing out with" thing:

But earlier in the interview, it was established that Lou said it as a response to why the other shippers should still embrace Buck and Tommy's relationship. He didn't actually know what would happen in the future:

[outrunningthedark]

I know that li have always been treated particularly badly by fans of rhe show but it had reached entirely new levels with tommy and lou...

Do you thinks it's bc it was easier to write off the women bc they weren't a tangible threat (like not trying to downplay ow they were treated, but with the women you could still play the rddie is a repressed gay man and buck just doesnt know hes in love yet) but with tommy he's a man and he was seen as the final stepping stone for buddie. (Hence why so many that have been stirring up the hate were initially gushing about the kiss etc).

Like it was a case of being closer than ever but suddenly he's hanging around and in someways a greater threat than ever bc if he doesn't leave what was the point of making buck bi if it wasn't leading to buddie canon.

I'm not sure I'm getting my point across but am I making sense?

You got your point across perfectly, nonnie. No worries. And you're right. When both Buck and Eddie were only dating women, it was easier to convince ourselves (yes, I was part of it, though for a shorter time) that things would change once Buck and Eddie realized and accepted their feelings for each other. They're only dating women because they don't think being with their best friend is an option, right? Something's gotta wake them up. (This is where Eddie getting shot was supposed to factor in, and then the hostage situation, and then Buck in a coma...) But now Buck is not straight. (I typically say bi since however the show chooses to define his sexuality is tbd.) And now Buck has a boyfriend. A boyfriend that is not Eddie. If Buck can have a boyfriend that is not Eddie - not a fling, not a four episode arc to "introduce" his awakening - then Bi Buck was never really about Buddie, was it? It was about writing a story that would get Buck off of Tim's interpretation of the hamster wheel - dating women that weren't realistic long-term partners: (via TheWrap) “I was kind of bored with the hamster wheel of the relationships [Buck] had been in. His story needed a slap. It needed some something fresh. This felt like it could be important to some people, and it felt like it was right for the character.” And to add insult to injury, Tommy might be a side character that we only see every few weeks going forward, but he's no news reporter or death doula. He's a firefighter and pilot for the LAFD. He has history with Bobby, and Hen, and Chim. And now Gerrard. Tommy isn't the same old love interest that you wouldn't remember existed if he was MIA. And that's because Tim wanted it that way. He wanted Buck's first relationship with a man to be with a first responder who could seamlessly fit into the plot and serve a purpose outside of being the guy Buck is dating. If Tim made the effort to do that with Buck's (I repeat) first relationship with a man, then why would he immediately tear down what he's built for a relationship that the actors aren't even asking or advocating for right now? (If they ever even were?) Fandom knows that last part, too. But it's easier to attack Lou for "getting in the way" of Buddie than admit the two men they praised for being #BuddieWarriors aren't actually serious about having it play out on screen.

[necroromantics]

Ticci Toby + Bipolar Disorder

Partially an educational post, partially a how-to-write guide.

(check out my how-to-write aspd/psychopathy here)

What is bipolar disorder?

Bipolar disorder (shortened to BD, not BPD), is a mood disorder that causes a person to experience extreme fluncuations in their moods and energy levels. These episodes swing from depressive lows to manic highs. Despite popular belief, bipolar episodes last a long time (1+ weeks), and typically have a period of stability in between them. It is NOT the same as borderline personality disorder, they are two very different disorders.

Does Toby canonically have bipolar?

Sort of. His canon reference sheet shows 'bipolar' as one of his personality traits. This is just an error on the creators part, since they were young and didn't know what real bipolar disorder is. Bipolar isn't a personality trait, and the mood swings in the disorder are not quick switches. The way it's used on his sheet is more like borderline personality disorder than it is bipolar disorder. So if we're talking about whats canon, I'd say it's up for interpretation.

Do you headcanon Toby to have bipolar?

I do, but mostly because I have BD myself, and I like to project that onto him. Theres no characters in media who have bipolar disorder that I enjoy/know of, because honestly its kind of a pain in the ass to write. I rarely include it in any of my stories involving him, even though having untreated bipolar disorder is something that would effect him every day of his life, and severely. I would rather people not write him having bipolar at all, than to write it as BPD or other misinforming ways.

How to properly write Toby with bipolar?

A bit of this can also apply to any other character. First, the obvious, is to do research. Bipolar is something that needs to be treated, because manic highs and depressive lows are so life-altering, damaging, and cause a lot of harm to the individual. Since Toby is a killer on the run, he most likely wouldn't have access to proper treatment, which means his entire life would be a series of intense highs and lows. This is why I usually don't bother including his bipolar symptoms in my writing, cuz it's a hassle incorporating him going wildly manic at random points, even though its the harsh reality people with bipolar disorder face. So if you're going to write Toby with BD, you will need to be prepared to write how inconvenient the disorder is for not only Toby himself, but everyone around him.

It would interfere with his work as a proxy, it would greatly impact his relationships with the people around him. It might even end up with him getting caught by the police, or thrown into a psychiatric hospital (most people with bipolar end up in a psych ward at some point). If you do want to write him being treated for his disorder, you'll need to look into medication. One of the most common ones is lithium, but did you know some anticonvulsants (the medication Tim takes in Marble Hornets), act as a secondary treatment for bipolar disorder too? Carbamazepine is an example of this. You could incorporate that as well, since in Marble Hornets anticonvulsants are used to potentially lessen the effects of The Operator.

What do manic episodes look like? How would they effect Toby?

Manic episodes are very intense highs in mood and energy. Despite what people say, real manic episodes are only experienced in people with bipolar disorder. Other disorders such as ADHD and BPD can mimic mania, but they are not classified as true manic episodes. So if you want to write mania, the character needs to have bipolar (or schizoaffective).

Some symptoms of a manic episode are racing thoughts, lack of judgment, feeling untouchable or overly confident, no consideration for consequences, talking a lot, jumbled words from speaking too fast, jumping from one task to another. It feels like a constant surge of energy going through your body, and its so overwhelming you can't stop to think about anything you're doing. You just feel absolutely euphoric, and capable, and like nothing can bring you down. A very real danger of manic episodes is that some people experience co-occurring psychosis alongside their episodes, such as delusions and hallucinations. Another issue is that people with mania are so full of energy, they don't sleep for days on end. These highs can also lead to dangerous acts due to the recklessness and lack of proper judgement on whats safe/smart in that moment. There is also hypomania, which is a lesser, more mild form of mania.

For Toby, it completely depends on how you view his character and circumstances. But for me, I think that in a manic episode, Toby would cause many issues in his relationships with the people around him. He would be much more irritable, paranoid, he would go on rants and talk a lot, jumping from one rant to another. He wouldn't sleep for days, he would become increasingly reckless and grandiose. Toby would fight more with others, go off on his own a lot more, do a lot of risky things, and with his CIPA he would most definitely get himself hurt a lot more and more severely. When you're manic, you don't stop to consider the risks of the reckless things you're doing.

What do depressive episodes look like? How would they effect Toby?

Depressive episodes may come directly after a manic episode, a crash, or they can come on randomly after a period of stability. They typically last longer than manic episodes, usually about 1+ months. They're periods of an intense drop in mood and energy levels, which are often pretty severe.

The symptoms of depressive episodes are similar to regular depression, but not quite the same, and typically on the more severe end of the spectrum. Utter hopelessness and bleakness, suicidal thoughts, oversleeping, lack of interest in anything, sadness, difficulties concentrating, slower thinking, social isolation. Bipolar lows feel like energy and life is being sucked right out of you. All you want to do is sleep, nothing feels interesting, or you don't have any energy to do things that used to make you happy. People are disappointing, you don't want to talk to anyone. The lows feel very heavy, very tiring.

When Toby is experiencing a low episode, I can't imagine he gets out much. He would probably disappear for a bit, to be left alone, because he doesn't want to be around anybody. He would spend his time sleeping as much as he can, and then the rest of his time doing proxy work, and then going back to sleep. He probably wouldn't want to be awake with his hopeless and bleak thoughts.

What are mixed episodes?

Hell on earth. Mixed episodes are when someone with BD experiences both manic and depressive symptoms in rapid succession or at the same time. This can look like feeling super energetic, but also horribly hopeless and depressed, or being on top of the world one minute, and then wanting to off yourself the next. They are very intense, and dangerous. It feels like you're losing your mind, and you can't catch yourself. You just have to sit there and let your mind take you on the worst rollercoaster of your life.

What are some things to avoid when writing bipolar disorder?

For the love of GOD stop mixing it up with borderline personality disorder. Bipolar is a MOOD DISORDER, not a personality disorder. The mood swings are not quick or volatile, there is no fear of abandonment, or unstable emotions. The mood swings are more like intense changes in energy that effects the mood, and they typically last over the course of a week+. Toby canonically does have volatile, rapidly shifting and unpredictable emotions, but that would not be a result of his bipolar disorder (besides maybe during a manic episode).

And the obvious, don't demonize the disorder and make him out to be a crazy person because he's bipolar. Toby is nuts, but not because he has BD.

If you have any more questions, Google is free, but make sure to find reliable and professional sources. But also, if you want to DM me or send a question in my inbox I'm free to answer with my personal experience, and headcanons, about bipolar and how it may present in Toby.

[celaenaeiln]

What's the deal with fanon Tim bc I read some comics with Tim and I've seen him in cartoons but all I see people talk about is "haha coffee addicted nerd who doesn't sleep!" and that just seems weird and wrong. Like my view of Tim has always been "he's a nice and extremely smart guy who sometimes pushes things a bit too far and maybe a bit set in his own ways/Batman's ways" but now I'm not even sure of that because I really haven't read THAT much (mostly seen him in other series) lol

No you're right!! Anon you're so right!!!

What the heck is up with fanon Tim Drake??

The thing about him not sleeping is actually true though

Detective Comics (2016) Issue #937

Batman: Contagion Issue #11

(I agree with Catwoman, Tim is so cute)

So I understand where the coffee addiction in fanon comes from but Tim's not actually addicted to coffee in the comics. I actually don't recall him mentioning coffee at all. At some point he might have but if he did, then those instances are so little in the grand scheme of things it might as well be called negligible if it's trying to be called an addiction.

But more importantly, Tim is so much more than that!! My favorite Tim Drake aspect of him is how sassy and sarcastic he is, it makes him so endearing!!

UGH NO ONE APPRECIATES HOW MUCH OF A LITTLE SHIT HE IS!!

Robin (1993) Issue #58

CMON CMON CMON LETS TALK MORE ABOUT THIS!!

Tim, you little shit, you know exactly what they say - cause you did it!!

HIS SELF-SATISFIED SMILE!!!

In all honesty I find Tim the funniest of the entire batfamily to read because he's so-he's so wholesomely quirky in a mean way. That's such as awkward way to describe it but reading his comics, you just can't get enough of them because he's just too funny!

At one point he has a massive fever and stuck underground with a bunch of weird kids and one of the girls is just like "please get better, please get some rest!" as she's wiping away his sweat and Tim has like no breath or energy at this point. But with the last remains of will power, he uses his breath to push one last question between lips.

Robin (1993) Issue #70

And as the audience waits in baited anticipation we get this-

Robin (1993) Issue #70

It's actually a very valid question and shows his detective thinking and yada yada yada but THE COMEDIC GOLD OF HIS TIMING!!

Like his situation and his question there's a massive gap that's almost incomprehensible about it all which is why it's so fantastic!!

The way he sasses batman is top 5 fav moments with him.

Azrael: Agent of the Bat Issue #91

Thanks @paladin-of-nerd-fandom65 for finding it again <33

But Tim overall is just like a normal kid. He's what authors tried to do with Stephanie but failed. They were able to make him relatable to the audience because the way he acts, it's so quirky but funny. Yes, he's a boy detective genius but he likes messing with people, he likes solving crime, he likes hanging out with his big brother, he asks for relationship advice, he can get insecure, he can get upset without acting cold, he gets tired, he gets anxious, he's determined, and he's super dorky.

Robin (1993) Issue #25

Like really dorky.

But what I think really defines him is this panel

Robin (1993) Issue #48

This scene is probably what explains him best. Tim is someone who ponders a lot. He thinks constantly all the time whether it's about cases or his personal life, he just goes over the choices he makes constantly because he's just soul-searching alot.

He always means well even if he's awkward about it and he's just a diverse personality overall. The fanon interpretation of his character doesn't really do him any justice because it doesn't address how funny he is or confused or just a likeable, real person in general.

[theflyindutchwoman]

Can you better explain how Isabel factored into Tim and Lucy's fight? I've rewatched the scene multiple times trying to understand, but I'm just not making the connection, and I know I'm missing something. I thought the fight was about Lucy making detective, but then she brought up Tim's trauma with Isabel, and I'm just not seeing how they connect.

I can certainly try - whether I'll succeed, however, is another matter… Make yourself comfortable, it's going to be a long post. As always, this is merely my interpretation.

The fight was initially about Lucy making detective and escalated from there. That's because the issue goes beyond just this test : all of this is intrinsically connected to the whole undercover work storyline. This is the reason why she is taking this exam in the first place : so she can become a UC. And that is the crux of the matter. This is the topic they have yet to fully discuss : how Tim truly feels about her becoming a full UC officer considering his past traumatic experience. It has been bubbling for the last five episodes… And this time, it blew over.

In my opinion, you can see the progression of their argument in these 3 key scenes.

/ 1st - First scene in the shop (Lucy's spiraling) Here, Lucy is entirely focused on the detective exam. This is about the pressure she is feeling. Taking an exam is already stressful enough, but add the fact that one of the higher-ups is gunning for her, and her anxiety is understandable. I believe that up to this point, she has been trying not to let it get to her. We saw a bit of her distress when she found out about Primm potentially blocking her in 5.19, but that was it. Now that the date is approaching though, the cracks are starting to show. As someone else mentioned, she asked for TO/Sergeant Bradford to help her when really, she wanted (and needed) Boyfriend Tim. You can already see how she is second-guessing herself when she says she should have asked Nyla or Angela for help. And after that, well… She starts spiraling. Part of the reason why she cracks here is that she feels safe : she's in the shop, riding with Tim. This is an environment she is familiar with. So she starts unloading. Only, once she starts, she can't stop. She overthinks everything in a way we haven't seen her do before, not even when she was still a rookie. And Tim in that moment is completely caught off-guard, not knowing what to do. And to be frank, I don't think he realises how bad it is yet. Now, speaking from experience, I'm not entirely sure there was anything he could have said that would have made a difference. I've been on both sides of the equation and you usually feel powerless. What could have possibly helped was doing some breathing exercises with her, making her focus on the here and now, or simply taking a small walk… Like in that scene with Barnes and the ladybug in 3.11. Anything really to take her mind off that exam. But I'm afraid that would have only been helpful in the short term since the issue at heart goes far deeper than the exam.

/ 2nd - The fight in the shop (stake out) This is where the conversation starts to (slowly) shift away from the exam itself. At this point, Lucy is on a downward spiral and is second-guessing everything, including taking the exam. It's clear by the tears in her eyes that she is barely holding it together. Tim's immediate reaction is to protest and reassure her that she is ready. And when she argues that it would be better for her to wait, he tries to reassure her again that there's nothing wrong that. He even makes sure to emphasise that she can still do some undercover assignments while in patrol. Because he knows this is why she wants to become a detective. There is no malice in his words. He is genuinely trying to be supportive and help her deescalate. He trusts her to know what's best for her and if she says it is to wait, then he will support her. Just like he trusted her when she wanted to stay undercover after finding out Rosalind had escaped. Unfortunately, Lucy understands something entirely different. What she hears is that he doesn't believe she can pass the exam. Otherwise he would have insisted. And from there, she spirals even more. Her mind is projecting and creating a whole new scenario. Remember when I said she is second-guessing everything? Well, now it includes Tim. When you spiral, your mind tends to jump to the worst case-scenario. And before they can clarify this, the suspect shows up.

/ 3rd - The final scene And this is when it all comes crashing down. Tim is still trying to figure out what happened while Lucy's mind is already somewhere else. He's playing catch up here. When you think about it, it's not that different from the 'unless it is' scene : when they met outside the station back then, Tim was trying to understand why she didn't want to break up with Chris while Lucy was one step ahead of him and blurted her confession out. When they meet here in the parking garage (a few steps away from where they were in 5.08 by the way), she looks completely defeated. She solved the case but it doesn't feel like a victory. Now, her doubts go far beyond Primm and the exam. Doubts poison everything. And make you question everything. And in that moment, the thing she is questioning is why Tim doesn't believe she can pass the exam.

So why does she jump to Tim's trauma with Isabel? Because, in her mind, that's the reason why he is scared of her becoming a detective. If she passes the exam, she will be an undercover cop. Her words are : "Did you undermine me today because you're scared that I'm gonna make detective?". "Scared" being the operative word here. Like I said earlier, this is where I think the context helps. Ever since she told him about taking the detective exam in 5.19, she has tried on numerous occasion to broach the topic of undercover - to no avail. He has either deflected or walked away. Like in that couch scene at the end of 5.20 : "I'm worried that you won't [be able to handle me going deep undercover] - I'll be fine". Or that scene in the laundry room : "Look, it's not my first time - I know. It's probably what makes it worse - All right, now's not the time to talk about this". Before it finally blew over a little at the end : "If this is gonna work between us, I need to know that you can see the difference - Of course I can". And there's something to be said in the mirroring in the language here : "if this is gonna work between us" in 5.21 / "this isn't gonna work if you're gonna lie to me" in 6.01.

She knows about his trauma and like he said, he has acknowledged it with her since day one. But that was then. That was before they became a couple. Since their relationship changed, with the exception of that final scene in 5.21, he has yet to open up on how he truly feels about her doing undercover work. And because she knows him and his past, she can sense that he's hiding something. She can sense he is scared. He all but admitted it in 5.21 after all. But that conversation just scratched the surface.

The other reason she brings up his past and trauma is because the one time they did talk about this was when he jumped to the conclusion that she was hiding things while undercover, the way Isabel did. But they didn't go deeper, they were too raw back then. Still, this part of the conversation probably stuck with her. She has internalised everything for so long, has bottled up all those feelings, those things left unsaid until she couldn't contain them anymore. And she blurted everything out at the worst time. That's the issue when you don't talk about things : your intentions can get misconstrued. And watching your partner walk away from the difficult conversation, before you can actually talk things through, takes its toll on you. It creates a doubt. Now add all that spiraling, all that second-guessing she has done all day long and you got a recipe for disaster. She arrives at this crashing point where she second-guesses him. Because she is afraid too. She is afraid that the other shoe is about to drop.

Now from Tim's perspective, I believe he is sincere in his support. And I don't think that in this episode, his past even crossed his mind. He genuinely wants her to succeed, to have the career that she wants and deserves. When he says that she's different, that they're going to figure out, he means it. When he said they were worth the risk, he meant it. He already knew she was going to do undercover work. But he's also scared. The most obvious time was in 5.20 where they were sitting on the couch. The fear was written all over his face. That said, I get where he's coming from too : after his reaction in 3.06, I can understand why he is more guarded. That he doesn't want his fears to influence her in any way. "You don't let anyone ever tell you you can't do something. Not even me." I can imagine that he is afraid that should he be entirely honest, it would put Lucy in a situation where she feels that she has to choose between him and UC. And that's the last thing he wants. He doesn't want to be the one to hold her back in any form. Like he said in 5.02. He wants the best for her so he will be supportive, no matter what her decision is.

And here's the irony for you : he wants to be so supportive that he doesn't see that what she needs even more is honesty from him and that without that honesty, it is creating a doubt in her mind. It's a loop they are stuck in. At least, for now. All it takes to break that loop is to talk.

I hope this helped shed some light on the connection and answered your question :)

[herefortheships]

please, if you could asnwer me this...After the movie and it interesting end, what do you think happened? Lydia really married BJ?

You mean if she truly married him at the end of BJBJ?

I talked before about what I think the ending means in this other post, but in short I don't think she did. That said, upon rewatching a clip of the scene, I think that if Astrid, Delores and Wolf wouldn't have interrupted, there's a chance she would have gone through with it. This is just my personal interpretation, but think about it, did Lydia say or try anything to fight off Betelgeuse or try to banish him before the end of the dance number and Astrid's intervention? I wish I had the movie with me to rewatch the entire scene instead of a TikTok clip to verify this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but other than looking scared, I don't think she did anything to fight Betelgeuse away. // EDIT: I was just clarified that neither Lydia nor Astrid could say his name as per the contract. I just totally not remember the contract's full terms lol. But I think this still stands in the sense that we don't know if she would have decided to go through with the contract instead of going back on it this time. // She got into this arrangement herself fully knowing what it meant, and she wasn't backing out until Astrid pointed out the contract was null. Would she had been left completely alone with Betelgeuse, would she have acted differently? That's an interesting question.

I talked in the post linked above about how Lydia subconsciously doesn't truly want Betelgeuse gone; there's a part of her that wants him around, and that's why I think he's still hanging around her in the end, despite her sending him away. Her secret desire to keep him around is what continues to invite him into her life. He's in bed with her trying to communicate with her just like at the beginning of the movie, where she couldn't really tell if he was there or not. This time though, she fully knows he is. It's why she looks to the empty space next to her (and why she's totally sleeping at her side of the bed and leaving a side open for him, as I said, subconsciously wishing he was there and she wasn't alone lol Anyway that's just my interpretation).

If the story continues with a third part, I think she will end up marrying him (and I always say "for better or worse", because thematically that wedding has to happen, but we don't know what Tim Burton, et al, will choose to do with it. Considering the increased support for Beetlebabes after this movie and how much Winona, Michael, and definitely Tim love the couple, I think it should be a good outcome). Even if the story doesn't continue with another movie, the ending is open-ended enough that we can imagine what happened next. It's heavily implied BJ is still around, not letting go of Lydia, so we can easily conclude they'll continue to have some form of relationship which could eventually become a friendship or even a romantic relationship down the line. Lydia doesn't have to be afraid of Betelgeuse anymore; he has a dark af sense of humor, but she's seen he cares about her and wouldn't harm her or Astrid.