#whether as the abyss twin or the traveler
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iridescentdove · 1 year ago
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I don’t know if you already did this but can I request bad men with f!reader that is like Lumine full power. I heard that with new lore drops that the traveler could destroy world’s. I’m also a huge Lumine fan both as the traveler and abyss princess <33333
Chuuya, Dazai, Jouno & Atsushi x Lumine! Reader
(I just chose the characters myself ehe)
Lumine is skeptical but shares the same curiosity her twin has for everything, she's rational and courageous, along with being generous and helpful towards others that need assistance. And most especially, rather beautiful and somewhat quiet, yet considered rather expressive.
As if a primordial being – Lumine holds power able to destroy worlds and travel through them with ease, and yet, most of it having been sealed away by the Unknown God's own bidding. What happens when she regains her full power and travels through the world of BSD?
Fyodor, Ranpo & Sigma Ver.
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CHUUYA NAKAHARA:
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You probably already stand out enough due to peculiar clothing and ur girlboss appearance 😩
He is literally so confused- you're saying this short blondie saved worlds and can travel through them all and has these Godly powers to DESTROY EVERYTHING?? UM
Okay but he does admit, you're probably full of surprises. And he admires your brave, courageous nature.
ALSO HE'S SO HAPPY YOUR SHORTER THAN HIM AAA
You're honestly a cute little bean, and a very strong one at that too – so you do get along rather well. Plus you got his back whenever he needs help
His pride probably won't allow him to say it but in some cases you're really helpful in various ways.
You one time, said he reminded you of a familiar sketchy ginger in the previous world you visited through, and now he's actually kinda curious.
Tar- Tar- Taglia lover of Snezhnayan Queen
Someone please make me fanart of Childe! Chuuya and Lumine! Reader I will pay you will all of the massive dumpload of fanfics you will ever want to see
I can imagine him just walking into the PM headquarters one day and greeting you with ...
"Hey girlie." 😏 *lip bite* i am sorry
The first time he witnessed your strength wss when you single handedly beat up the fucking hunting dogs without batting an eye?? Hello?? Wtf sis
"(Y/N) WHAT THE FUCK" "This is normal, no worries"
He is very curious to even know about all of the things you've seen and fought across worlds ...
When you tell him you literally beat up God *cough*Raiden*cough* dude's jaw smashed to the ground
Though you're not very talkative, you sure do have some ... interesting expressions. He's floored. Bro and you're smaller than him he delights in pinching your cheeks and ruffling your hair sjsiskak
Even if he's thankful you're around to help, he does feel as if people abuse your kindness way too much ...
So now he's your bodyguard yay! :D
Whichever bitch tryna shred your ass? You bet he's giving this menacing ass aura, readily cocking a fucking gun and slamming them around across with his gravity manipulation
If you're visibly tired and people keep asking for more help? He will snap at them and tell them to leave you alone <3
By the end of the day, this man is just ... so addictive wtf
And in a romantic light also he literally tries to hide his blushing whenever he sees you whether in a new outfit or not LIKE your beauty is Godly fr
I don't make the rules. This Tartaglia 2.0 worships you.
And if you're the abyss princess instead of traveler, he is definitely thinking ur some hot shit. Same Chuuya, I want her to step on me.
Whenever there's nothing to do, he just sits down and listens to you talk about your journey in other worlds.
And whenever he and you go out on missions together and you give him compliments along the way he's floored, and trying not to show how affected he is with them
Hear me out ... praise kink
DAZAI OSAMU:
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Okay, you already know the drill. Once this man sees you he's gonna do a fucking double take
HELLO?? YOU ARE ACTUALLY SO GODDAMN PRETTY
Will ask you to do a double suicide. If you're done with bullshit say actually say yes, I think he's dead in love. If you say no with a blank face, this bitch grows desperate
Well either way he's gonna fucking love you so why not
Did assume that you definitely weren't from this world, just not really the full detail. So he got curious.
Your journeys from different world intrigued him, and the fact you were basically an actual shooting star. Just soaring through the sky away from all the shit like aight m8
But you'd bet this is Dazai, so of course he wants to go see you in action.
After all, you are kinda like, God-level strong.
So why not? You know he wouldn't be too surprised, but he's gonna go apeshit the moment he sees you take on like freaking all PM executives at once and stuff.
HE DID NOT EXPECT YOU ACC TAKE THE DARE LOL
But it didn't really matter because you did somehow manage to defeat them. And literally with your full power? Hello the city is shaking 😐
Chuuya was boutta use corruption but he got smacked into the 6th dimension before he even blinked HAHA
You're so done with everything. His double suicide offer still stands y'know, it's not that late.
Bet he dragged you into the mersault prison drama
... He's smart as hell, we all know this bitch can prepare for an event that isn't even happening yet in 171919 years
... But ..l did you just ... beat him in a game of chess?
No you ate the chess pieces whenever he blinked
Okay well great- at least the agency has an OP new member that can fucking traverse to another dimension-
If you were abyss princess, he's down on his knees begging you to choke him zaddy can't stay still 😩
Thinks it's hot
If it's in a romantic light, you can take a guess. You both do get rather close – and you're one of the very few he trusts because of how helpful and trustful you are.
It will take some time but he'll show you the reason behind his bandages. You can sense some anxiety in his expression, a vulnerable state for the first time.
But the fact you just accept it? He's over the moon <3
Dazai will not accept from bullshit from other people. Any disrespect directed to you, he's boutta go Dark Era on them so just pray he don't do that unless you want to, simp.
You can tell he'll just ... go over his loneliness all over again when you decide to travel through a new world and leave.
But of course, you assure him you'll return to visit :)
Yay! ✨️
Rest assured you're not gonna let him go through that pain, so if you dare even think of leaving him
I'm sending my homies after you.
JOUNO SAIGIKU:
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You'd bet he's a bit skeptical at first, he's not sure whether he can believe a story like that at all 💀
But the thump of your heartbeat begged to differ, because you actually weren't lying. So I guess now he's just kind of curious about your existence. and your powers
As for your beauty this man is blind asf bro what u expect
So even though he has no idea how you look like, he can still bet your gorgeous and he's obviously right.
As per part of the Hunting Dogs, they all have their own individual beliefs on justice. And because you're prone to helping others a lot, he actually appreciates it.
Won't abuse your kindness though, he doesn't really ask for help. Unless they're in an actual dire situation.
Plus you strong asf so 🗿
Although he's busy, both ya'll can take some time for some peace and just chit chat. Honestly, this man wants to know the deets like c'mon spill the tea sis
He's probably interested in whatever you have to say abour Teyvat, especially Fontaine. I can feel it
I mean it's the nation of justice bro what else
Jouno will sit down, listening to your tales about Fontaine and the God of Justice – (he's fucking flabbergasted knowing it was a bratty child who is like shorter than you)
No fr he did not expect that shit 😭
"Also she's really short" "Really now?" "She's like a bratty child who almost got assassinated while playing with cats" "A ... A child?" "Yea and dramatic" "(Y/N), whAT"
This man would probabpy do a double take and question even the existence of Gods. HOO BOY
"... You're telping me the Gods there are broke and et bullied by their own people 24/7" "Yeah"
Let's just say he's now questioning life.
But then again, anything is possible now so he just rolls with it and enjoys his time with you.
Don't tell me he doesn't enjoy lesrning more about your powers and how useful it can really be to the Hunting Dogs.
Once he decided to spar with you, because his patience was wearing thin and he really wanted to know how far the heights of your power could stretch.
He was fairly sure that it wouldn't be an easy win, but he really thought he'd win. Lol.
He was all ready and stuff, slowly unsheathing his sword as you and him clashed ways.
... After that, he promised himself as he was nearly buried six feet under.
Nah most especially if you were the abyss princess because this man literally won't last. He'd actually put up a really good fight, he's strong as hell.
But still, he plummets to the ground like Odasaku.
... Never again, I assume.
ATSUSHI NAKAJIMA:
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You and him met when he was running errands after being told forced by Dazai.
Holy shit he looked so tired. He was sweating as he ran back and forth across multiple shops and streets. Being you, you went over to give him a helping hand.
Canonically Atsushi's type is someone kind and patient, so he just was actually rather happy.
Congrats for being friends with the furry 😍
He adores how nice you are for being a helping hand, and he admires your bravery honestly. That shit is what keeps him going on the daily
No but fr you were so PRETTY too. And innocent looking
So imagine he does a fucking 180° when he sees you casually coming into the agency to help them beat up the Port Mafia?? SINGLE HANDEDLY HELLO
He's beginning to rethink everything he thought about you. Ok cool, you travel through worlds, fought God, is strong a–
... Wait a minute 😐
He nearly passed out from the amount of sheer info dump that you gave him. He's beyond shocked.
But also happy you're there to help. He trusts you and just loves everything about you. You're pretty blunt and quiet, but you're courageous and have cute facial expressions.
Chub squishy cheeks uwu
He literally would not ask for anything more. And you have some interesting things to talk about!
Atsushi is intrigued in the types of things you faced and the places you've visited. The fact you're literally bullshitting through and brave enough to face God himself??
You probably went through stuff. He respects you sm.
He's like a little kid all over again, sitting down with his knees to his chest as he listens to you talk about Tevyat.
You'd just be doing something in the far corner like fucking fantasizing on killing Timmie's pigeons again and he's just
Heart face emoji 😍
No matter what you do, Atsushi honestly believes in you and he knows you're of really good help. The agency welcomes you with open arms.
Bro he's just in love leave him be. Furries still need that love and attention bbg
Ngl since abyss princess is more stoic and somewhat intimidating boy is tryna stay away from you lmfao
"Not a second Akutagawa!" bitch 🗿
Yet we all know this man cannot stay away from you. You bet he's right there 24/7, admiring you and protecting you with his life.
Pet him in his tiger form pls 🤲
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milkyfluffy08 · 7 months ago
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{💞} enjou dating hcs !
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"Look at you, venturing out into the darkness, doggedly fighting your way through.. just to come and see me!"
requested by: no one ! warnings: reader is given no name, gender or origin. traveler and abyss twin is left up to reader interpretation. note: i thought to kick off my tumblr blog i could try out some headcanons! and who better to write for then my genshin beloved enjou? i might make a writing piece for him soon too.
{} lets begin by saying, enjou is a very peculiar fellow. and by that, he's very curious and stubborn about things. he can and will get on someones nerves if he wants to.
{} he's said it himself, he does what he wants, when he wants! he's more interested in the "inconsequential" things within existence.
{} and his s/o would be no exception to that.
{} now this can go in quite a number of ways, with how he is around his s/o, it does depend majorly on the way they met and their dynamic from that said meeting.
{} first, let's discuss his s/o being the enemy of the abyss! whether it be as some sort of ally to celestia and the archons, to a mere mortal walking the sun.
{} enjou, of course, is still somewhat loyal to his "comrades" even if he doesn't bow down and slave away to the abyss twin.
{} lets go with the idea you travel with paimon and the traveler. whether it be from ever since the traveler began their journey to find their missing kin, or you both had been assigned a commission from the adventurers guild at one point that led into a travelling trio.
{} you and the traveler had been tasked to enter enkanomiya to retrive the bloodbranch coral for watatsumi island's ritual, and from there you met enjou.
{} enjou didn't pay much attention to you or the traveler at first, still stuck with his goal on retrieving the book "before sun and moon" to prove the gods and celestia were from beyond teyvat.
{} but then he started to genuinely find himself curious about you, and he didn't know why.
{} soon he'd find himself trying to seek excuses just for a mere glance. a conversation was something he never took for granted, and he tried to get you to stay back with him often while the traveler explored enkanomiya.
{} "i might need some assistance with this." but he knew damn well he could do any of this on his own.
{} so why was he so fascinated with you?
{} a creature withering in the abyss, who's been around for decades and potentially eons, couldn't have found you that interesting, surely?
{} by the time he revealed himself as an abyss lector, he wasn't even sure if he could stand leaving you. he'd grown attached, against his own judgement, and he knew it wasn't right.
{} but then after you and the traveler left enkanomiya, you could always have a few minutes where there'd be nobody in sight, and you felt a pair of eyes on you that made you feel like you were crazy for imagining things.
{} a warm presence following you when you were alone, busy or relaxing.
{} things you lost somehow popping up about a day later.
{} small flowers of your preference beside you once you wake up for the day. or even after a nap.
{} the little things of appreciation, enjou thought.
{} but yet, he just never knew how to approach you. it wasn't shyness, per-say, enjou knew he could hold a conversation with you for hours on end if he so desired.
{} and even if you beat him a thousand times in combat, enjou wouldn't care. hell, he'd probably enjoy it just because it's you.
{} you'd only met enjou face-to-face again when you returned to enkanomiya, this time without the traveler and paimon. with permission from sangonomiya kokomi, you explored around the areas of enkanomiya you missed.
{} but then you reach the ruins where you and the traveler first met enjou, and at first you opted to skip that area. until, of course, you heard someone inside of the ruins.
{} now, enjou wouldn't lie about expecting you to return to enkanomiya the one time he wasn't watching you from afar. he just didn't expect you to immediately pull your weapon out on him.
{} it took him a moment to stop admiring you and actually try to calm you down enough to let him explain and talk.
{} enjou was rather relieved when you opted not to beat him to a pulse and make his life flash before his eyes… for a second time, at least.
{} it probably takes a while for you two to even build some sort of trust, but enjou is sure it can happen if he's patient enough!
{} you didn't really hate enjou, though. and he knew this. you just didn't like the abyss order for some of their more questionable acts, even if their leader was the kin of your best friend and travel companion.
{} for a while, you and enjou got to know each other, for real this time. much to enjou's surprise, you didn't ask much about his boss or what the abyss order was planning. you wanted to know more about him.
{} and boy, he was ecstatic over it.
{} when the time came for you to go back to the traveler and paimon, enjou proposed the idea for you both to meet again. he didn't expect you to agree, but he wasn't complaining at all, if anything he was just anticipating the next talk you both would have.
{} and from then on, you and enjou would meet up back in enkanomiya, sometimes even random places in teyvat, and just hang out. you'd find books to read together, enjou would tell stories about some of the things he's researched or even witnessed in teyvat, and the trust between you both grew more and more as time passed.
{} enjou was already well-aware he had fallen for you, hard.
{} but the question never changed in his mind about how you felt. the morality of it all never bothering him either. if you loved him like he did with you, why should it matter on what the factions you both are in have to say? the most he'd worry for is your safety, but he knew you could fight, and so could he.
{} finally, enjou decided to confess to you. maybe it was a bit cheesy, and showed how much of a hopeless romantic he was, but he was honest. him getting his point across was all that mattered to him.
{} now, to actually get into dating the pyro abyss lector.
{} you will face teasing, no matter what. banter is always a fore-front of your relationship. enjou always looks forward to hearing a witty remark from you about something he said or did.
{} pda is also a big thing! obviously you can't be seen with him much in public, especially with the traveler and paimon as they know both of his forms, but physical touch and affection is something he will always cherish with you.
{} hand holding, cuddles, hugs, pampered kisses, you name it! he'll do anything that makes you happy.
{} adding onto that, his body heat is constantly warm, even in his human form. so it's perfect for cuddling in colder temperatures.
{} sometimes, though, he'll overwork himself on projects he's assigned, which also takes away a lot of his time with you. he feels incredibly guilty about the lack of time he gets to spend with you because of it, but he still overworks himself sometimes even when he's with you.
{} if you're mad at him, your method of showing it or reacting to something he said or did may vary, but the biggest thing you could do in his eyes is the silent treatment.
{} enjou loves your voice, well- he loves everything about you! but listening to you is one of his favorite things. if you take that way from him, he'll do anything to get it back.
{} whenever enjou is away from you, you are most definitely one of the many things on his mind.
{} enjou's jealousy can be dependent on the situation. if someone is hitting on you romantically, enjou doesn't find it very threatening. your loyalty lies with him, and if you've made it to the relationship aspect, he knows you love him. so why should he be pent up over some random person who thinks you're good looking?
{} now, if you were the one jealous, that's a different story.
{} of course, he'd remind you that he only has eyes for you, but he does find it funny whenever you get mad at someone for flirting with enjou, with or without knowing he's already with you.
{} pet names are something enjou finds as a term of endearment, so you and him definitely share a few. there's not many crazy pet names unless you both are joking or having banter.
{} but petnames such as 'darling' or 'sweetheart' are definitely a preference of his.
{} if something is bothering you, though, enjou can most definitely be stubborn about the issue, but never presses it whenever you deny to answer. what he does do is remind you that he's right there whenever you're ready.
{} your well being is also a major thing to him, so he'll remind you to take care of yourself a lot.
{} you're everything to him, and no matter how big his ego can seem, you will always be one of the top things of his pride.
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The visions of Stanley and Stanford
Stanley Pines:
Stan's visions are Cryo and Pyro
Stan's first vision was Cryo vision
This vision is the most characteristic of him, as it represents Stan's past and how circumstances pushed him to be colder with everyone around him.
A life of tragedies and misery led him to try to survive with a false smile, because for him, life was a stage in which he had to pretend to be someone else
Stan's Cryo vision appeared during our travelers' trip to Fontaine, when he was tried in a trial to determine whether he was guilty of destroying Ford's invention.
After being exposed and humiliated, his vision appeared as a last defensive measure to protect himself against the outside world that ridiculed him.
So much suffering and accumulated pain ended with a broken man...
But even in the darkest storm, Stan demonstrated his unwavering desire for justice and respect, not for himself, but for those who are innocent and have everything against them.
Stanley, Fontaine's defender of justice, with fists that can break anything, capable of facing anyone in order to protect those he loves most even if he gives his life for it.
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Stanley's second Vision is Pyro
After the storm, the cold and the anguish, Stanley is reborn from the ashes as someone different, achieving something that no one could expect, having two visions in one,a vision that combines the cold of its past and the warmth of its future
During her journey through Natlan, Mavuika saw in Stan a flame, a desire to fight and protect, giving his life for those he loves.
Mavuika decides to test Stanley, putting him through a training session in which he faced many warriors and emerged victorious.
Once the stranger had proven his worth, Mavuika summoned him to discuss the possibility of him becoming a warrior of Natlan.
Stan is surprised by the proposal, and Mavuika vaguely tells him that he has a great future ahead of him.
With little confidence in his intentions, Stan lets Mavuika train him as a warrior, while they tried to figure out everything related to the abyss, Kachina and Capitano, Stan proved his worth.
During the great war that took thousands of lives, Stan protected his friends and his brother with all his soul, the fire inside him had returned after a long time
His whole life was about protecting and saving the ones he loves, even if it meant sacrificing himself to save everyone he cares about.
That fire, that spark of life that Mavuika saw in him, that spark that was dying, resurfaced with force and, when Stan saves his family from a threat, his vision and his old name appear. (Xilonen was the one who forged the ancient names of Stan and Aether)
Once her vision makes its appearance, her two visions merged into one, combining into a powerful force of cold and heat, the goddess of war and the archon Cryo They gave him their blessing because they saw that in him there was an unparalleled force of nature.
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Stanford Pines:
Stanford is the only one of the Pines twins with a vision, and this is his vision Dendro
Stanford's Dendro Vision
His vision appeared in Sumeru, during his search for the truth and to stop the sages who were trying to use the electro Gnosis to create a new god.
Stanford overcame his thirst for knowledge to protect and save his friends and brother, fighting alongside Stan against Scaramouche.
With his ingenuity, Ford manages to put together a strategy by mixing the elements of his teammates
Thanks to his ingenuity and letting go of his obsession with obtaining the answers, Dendro's vision is granted, not because of his desire for knowledge, but because he stood up for something more important than that.
Ford is still struggling to avoid being fooled by those who flatter him and tell him he has a great future.
But in his heart he knows that he will always have someone to tell him when to put his feet on the ground, and if it is not Nahida, it will be Stan and the children.
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m1d-45 · 1 year ago
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SPOILERS AHEAD
okokok cool bc we know now that the gnoses are essentially the stolen power from the dragon sovereigns right
imo in the context of sagau, this further validates the concept of celestia booting the creator when they initially invaded/being able to convincingly place an imposter in teyvat and then something something most people don't recognize the true creator
and also neuvi is confirmed the incarnation of the hydro dragon so i imagine bc he doesn't have the full dragon powers that's the reason he'd be unable to recognize the creator
AND THEN ALSO furina is now confirmed to not have the hydro gnosis so even more running theory is that we may be having another akasha situation here where the oratrice is powered by the gnosis so what if because of that...reader is put on trial and the final verdict is instead guilty because of the gnosis and its connection to celestia?
ooh the imposter!au crumbs are delicious
i'll think of something for the fortress of meropide later
someone help me orz
- death loop anon
alright so admittedly my opinion about the sagau version of genshin lore has changed pretty dramatically, and it all centers around celestia. speculations below the cut. be warned this is mostly stream of consciousness.
oh, and here’s my previous post for some ground knowledge.
alright so it’s like… literally all but spelled out that the “primordial one” is celestia. they came, took over the world from the dragon sovereigns, and… the ‘second who came,’…. my mind says it could be intended to be the abyssal twin and or the travellers together, but that’s a problem for later when it’s actually confirmed. for now, the second is us, the creator.
this changes the timeline quite significantly, so here’s a new one. you create teyvat and it’s realms, as well as the seven sovereigns. you’re satisfied with your world. you move on to somewhere else, promising to visit as you do with all your worlds, or at least the ones with sentient life.
for the sake of everything, we’ll assume “the primordial one” (because it’s unclear if it’s the Sustainer (it probably is) or the body of celestia as a whole (unlikely)) was one of your prior creations. how they got to teyvat is unclear, but the point is that they Did, and overruled the sovereigns. whether or not this is when gnoses are created is blurry in canon, but for our purposes we’ll say it is.
(note, minor: celestia taking the authority of the dragons likely weakened them, making them more susceptible to things like forbidden knowledge or Dying. i say this because there’s no way one (?) guy could just topple 7 elite gods with the power of the world at their claws.)
blah blah lore. why celestia did this we don’t know. call it greed. istaroth happens and i still don’t know why. when you come back, horrified by what teyvat has become, you try to fight back. whether weakened from exhaustion caused elsewhere or overwhelmed by grief, you lose, and celestia solidifies their place as the head of teyvat. off you go to your ‘earth’ to rest.
from now on, everything that goes wrong is celestia’s fault. the forbidden knowledge, the abyss, the archon war and the fatui—all of it stems from their lack of understanding as to how to rule a world. they tried to cheat by handing out the gnoses, but they were poorly made, eroding the archons they gift them to. the greater lord’s death, the cursing of dvalin, the entirety of khaenri’ah, all of that can be blamed on celestia.
in canon, characters—even and especially archons—express negative emotions toward celestia. zhongli said that his gnosis was a fair trade for the tsaritsa, who is now vindicated. she leads the nation of love, and out of love for her god, she will not allow celestia to rule any longer.
this swings quite nicely into an imposter au as well. people can Tell celestia is incapable, so they make their own god, one to rule the people while celestia rules the world.
lore over, addressing your ask now.
re: your point about neuvi not recognizing the creator: i see that as very unlikely. though he doesn’t have his full authority, he still can sense the waves in the water, and was able to tell when the primordial sea sluice was about to break.
(the primordial sea itself is a talk for another time. maybe when fontaine is finished i’ll address it again?)
re: your point about the oratrice: this one could go either way. on one hand, in my version as i’ve written it here (which is always open for changes or other opinions) gnoses are essentially bottles. the power inside is the sovereigns, and hence loyal, while the bottle itself is made by celestia, and is hence disloyal. depends on your variety of sagau, i suppose.
finally, none of this is set in stone. i’m partial to the archons having memories of the creator—arguably could be from their gnoses, but that’s an angst for another time—as well as a few other tropes that don’t entirely align with this version of lore. this is… say, the “official” version i have in my head, and my fics are small alterations to this “official” version. additionally, just because its my “official” doesn’t mean it has to be yours, and i’m open to any suggestions or feedback.
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endlessskymaster · 3 months ago
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I am curious about whether the royal status of the twins will be further explored. We only know that the Abyss Order, who were once inhabitants of Khaenri'ah before being cursed, refers to the Abyss Sibling as Prince or Princess, depending on which twin you didn't choose. Additionally, Capitano confirms the twin's status by acknowledging that the traveler is the brother or sister of the Prince or Princess. Furthermore, the presence of a glider provides another hint of the twins' royal status which is not available if have an Xbox.
And a key part of Aether and Lumine's clothing seems to hint at their royal status.
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one-hell-of-otaku-is-here · 10 months ago
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Hoyo did it again or we can't escape tragic siblings
I think by this point I can start to think of Hoyo as great story tellers who truly do their research and make songs inspired by great poems. As you may all know the newest Genshin impact's animatic about our dear twins got relased and its accompied by song with name which felt too familiar and if that was for you as well well we're right. The title "The Road not taken" is inspired by the poem by Robert Frost and just like with Hoyo's HSR Robin' songs we shall take a closer look into it - here’s the poem:
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I don’t think I need to unpack everything here but words such as traveler, undergrowrt, two roads and even wood may tell give us inkling about why and how this poem is really about our Travelers (I think mostly from Abyss sibling's POV due to the fact she may be one who took road less travelled by or in other words took long and difficult one.
We can interpret multiple meanings and all in some way could technically relate to Travelers but all in all I do think it's mostly about how Abyss sibling must have made a choice and contemplating about two they have decided to take a road less common but whether that is positive or negative for them is not clear but they made this choise as an individual and have not decided to go for more popular or conventional choice (that is leaving this world with their sibling at the end of their journey). Furthermore, after choosing the road that seems to have been less traveled, the speaker then comments that, in fact, the two roads had been "worn ... really about the same." The speaker seems to sense that though he or she has attempted to take the road "less traveled," there's no actual way to know if it was less traveled but comments that in the end it had "made no difference". Does that mean that whatever choice our Traveler makes it would lead to similar impact? (no pun intended). Note that some interpretations of poem state that the path the speaker took was not in fact "less traveled," it also raises the possibility that the speaker is wrong, and taking that particular path can't be said to have made any specific difference at all.
Perhaps our Traveler would have to make similar choice either way and only fate can tell what outcome is going to be...
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dandelion-wings · 8 months ago
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Aether and Lumine? Paimon too.
Thank you for the ask! :> I am going to split this not on Aether/Lumine lines but on Traveler/Abyss Prince(ss) lines, because, well, canon did set it up that way, and while if absolutely pushed, Lumine is my Traveler, I mostly prefer to be agnostic in my meta and fic about who is who.
TRAVELER
How I feel about this character
Ah, yes, Traveler von Protagonist Disease.
The thing that complicates the Traveler for me is that I absolutely loathe the kind of semi-self-insert-but-semi-independent-character protagonist that seems to be getting popular in video games these days. Byleth in FE3H is another good example. I wish they didn't exist! I wish that it was either a full self-insert, character-builder and all, or that they gave us a protagonist with a personality in the style of Tales Of and Final Fantasy games in the first place. I really enjoy roleplaying a character as I play a video game, whether given to me as a fully-realized character or as one I made up myself, and this in-between kind of robs me of that because I can't go full "this OC of mine believes this" and I also can't try for accuracy to the character I'm presented on-screen.
That said, they have been getting better about this with the Traveler over the last few nations, and I like the increasing sense of actual, independent personality that we've gotten for them! Obviously a protagonist of this kind of game, where all the others have to like the player character to make the gacha appealing, is going to want to help others, so I actually particularly like the occasional thread we get where they're like "no, I don't actually care half as much for Teyvat as I do for my sibling, I don't not care but my main mission is still to get to them" because it's very refreshing to me.
All the people I ship romantically with this character
Childe with the Lumine version, as two people who can and will absolutely fuck each other up in a play-battle, post-fight sex optional but fun. (Also I once read a Childe/Lumine AU fic where Childe was attempting to pursue The Greatest Game with Lumine and she turned the tables and pinned him down with knives through his hands, and it was incredibly hot.) Ayaka, as a one-sided crush on Ayaka's part. That's... really about it.
My non-romantic OTP for this character
Paimon! My bestest and beloved friend. :>
My unpopular opinion about this character
With a handful of exceptions, I... do not particularly enjoy Traveler-centered fic/art/meta. I don't know how unpopular that is but it's all I've got.
One thing I wish would happen / had happened with this character in canon.
I know why Hoyo can't do this with their gacha game full of waifus and husbandos, but I wish we had at least one major/playable character who just did not get along with them. All their voicelines are along the lines of "you think I'm fucking telling you that?" I just want to see how it would play out.
THE ABYSS PRINCE(SS)
How I feel about this character
Honestly much more fascinating to me, in part because they've been a lot more allowed to have some kind of personality from the beginning! I want to know all about what's happened to them, why they hold the positions they do, why they give their twin so few crumbs, etc.
All the people I ship romantically with this character
I mean. Dain. XD
My non-romantic OTP for this character
Aside from their twin, also Dain! Love their history.
My unpopular opinion about this character
This sort of overlaps with the second, but while I don't know how plausible or how unpopular it is, the mirror in the Caribert quest where the Traveler saw them in it combined with some minor previous stuff to unlock a Theory for me that the Traveler and the Abyss Prince(ss) aren't twins, but a single person with, for the Traveler, altered memories, whom the Sustainer of Heavenly Principles broke apart in order to nerf their power and/or for other reasons related to the whole "Fourth Descender broken up for parts" thing. Fascinating to me.
One thing I wish would happen / had happened with this character in canon.
Related to the above: Hoyo, please give me this. For all the game's deliberate sibling analogies and their pleasing narrative resonance, this theory honestly has way more appeal to me overall.
PAIMON
How I feel about this character
My buddy! My bestest friend! :> I get mad when people are mean to her (in-game or people who choose those options in play). I get sad when she talks about being scared without us (@chrysoula has a theory that this is all foreshadowing a quest/arc where she's taken away and I think this is reasonably likely but I'm also dreading it). I refuse to believe the theories that she's evil, but I do love the theories that she's a reduced/de-powered version of Something/Someone in Teyvat's lore, that would be very fun. I want to give her so many hugs.
All the people I ship romantically with this character
I do not. XD
My non-romantic OTP for this character
The Traveler, of course! :> I also love her rivalry with Itto. I love when characters treat her as a separate person from the Traveler and have their own relationships with her.
My unpopular opinion about this character
From what I've seen in the fandom... that I like her at all? XD;;
One thing I wish would happen / had happened with this character in canon.
Hoyo stop giving us options to be mean to her. She doesn't deserve it. >:( Appreciating and loving Paimon hours ONLY.
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haravatat-slime · 9 months ago
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Pre- “Bedtime Story” Lore Roundup
so I was going through old Archive entries on Genshin in preparation for the next chunk of the Archon quest that’s dropping tonight, and here are some interesting bits of information I had completely forgotten about in the last 4+ years:
“We Will Be Reunited” (Ch. 1. Act IV)
the Treasure Hoarders potentially worship, or are lead by, a “God of Thieves.” Whether this entity is an actual god, or whether that god is or isn’t one of the Seven, has not been confirmed. HOWEVER, when we find the Fontanian “Grand Thief” (who was supposed to be as renowned in Teyvat as Alice…lol) dead in front of the inverted Venti statue, he looks to be praying. Hermes/Mercury is the god of winds, travelers, and thieves. A stretch? Maybe so, but I’ll leave that up to the reader. :p
When the Traveler first hears from Dainsleif that Khaenri’ah was destroyed by the gods, they think about what they’ll do or say the next time they see Venti or Zhongli. As far as I can remember, nothing ever comes of that potential discussion…since we’ve seen both Venti and Zhongli multiple times since.
The initial “test” or operative step for the Abyss Order’s Loom of Fate Project pertained to using the “Eye” of the first Ruin Guard (“Field Tiller”), the Defiled Statue, and the body of Osial (the ocean serpent in Liyue) to build a mechanized god. This mechanized-god project mirrors the intentions that the Fatui and Akademiya had for Scaramouche during the Sumeru Archon Quest - with the Gnosis instead of the “eye,” and Scaramouche himself instead of the Defiled Statue. What the Akademiya used to create Shouki no Kami’s body, I don’t think we know.
Dainsleif confirms that the reason we find Ruin Guards NEAR ruins to begin with is NOT because those ruins are part of Khaenri’ah - it’s because the machines are drawn to old, lonely places that they perceive as being like themselves.
Dainsleif doesn’t trust the Church or Knights of Favonius. We now know (through Mika and his Windblume Festival introduction) that the Knights have some sort of “agreement” with the Fatui (Varka and Capitano claim to be “on the same side, currently).
The Abyss Twin says that they’ve “already gone through this world once.” As far as either twin knows, they’ve only experienced one past loop in Teyvat.
Abyss Twin wants to “engulf the thrones” - that is, specifically, the thrones granted by Celestia.
Abyss Twin resents Dainsleif for “failing” to protect Khaenri’ah.
“Requiem of Echoing Depths (Ch 2. Act IV)
The Chasm’s underground mines are crawling with former Khaenri’ahn soldiers, but Dainsleif purports to NEVER have stepped foot in the Chasm before. This suggests that the other Khaenri’ahn soldiers there were probably drawn in the same way that the hilichurls were. The Chasm ruins, likewise, are NOT part of Khaenri’ah, but another previous unified civilization. (this is confirmed by Dainsleif explicitly).
The bodies of hilichurls are not burnt or discolored. They’re necrotizing (“eroding,” in Dainsleif’s words). They don’t cover their faces because they’ve become monsters - they’re covering their faces because while they’re suffering the curse of immortality, their bodies are STILL FREAKING DECAYING. This may also be the case with Arlecchino - although because she’s from a different dynasty of Khaenri’ah, the fire/burning aspects may still apply (unsure whether the two dynasties experienced similar or different fates?)
Lumine’s Inteyvat hair ornament will turn to dust when she finally returns it to Khaenri’ah.
At this point, the Loom of Fate is already “almost complete.” The Abysslings are placing “amplification devices” of some sort in the Chasm as part of the project.
“Caribert” (Ch. 3 Act IV)
Kaeya is implied to be only half-Khaenri’ahn, he doesn’t remember anything about Khaenri’ah proper, and he isn’t afflicted with an immortality curse (i.e. he ages normally). This suggests that 1) Khaenri’ahns were still able to reproduce with “regular” humans AFTER the cataclysm occurred (and since some of them can alter their appearance to look like a normal human, I guess it makes sense…), and 2) doing so does not pass the curse down to their children. Caribert was punished because he was alive at the time of the cataclysm.
The “I follow no god…I count some of them as my foes” line you choose during this quest is from your sibling’s memories, not your own thoughts.
Khaenri’ahn citizens who were related to the bloodline of the civilization became Abysslings. Ex-pat citizens who moved to Khaenri’ah from other nations became hilichurls (which was considered a “mercy”).
Medicine, books, and anything else pertaining to the Seven Archons was BANNED in Khaenri’ah.
The “Fortune Lector” (the Abyss Herald-esque enemy that guards the entrance to the Sinner’s chambers) sports decorations on its form that resemble the ruins littered throughout Teyvat, and is therefore likely a being from that previous unified civilization. It tells us that “Fate has not granted you the right to enter.”
The Sinner, likewise, also appears to know of other creatures’ fates (but this can’t really be confirmed with the [canon] information we have on the Sinner so far. Here’s hoping we get more!!!)
Chlothar’s line about our sibling being “like the Abyss…a wondrous mystery far beyond our imagination and comprehension”…feels immensely loaded to a degree that I don’t have time to unpack here but MAYBE LATER YEAH???
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dotedlover · 3 months ago
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Okay if you don’t mind my question IS. because like. Whenever it comes to Ganji and Naib being in relationships whether it’s with canon characters oc their home countries bother me like a lot. Like those guys WANT to go back after they get through all this shit and obviously they do not (or at least we don’t know) but like. How would you handle this oomf. Like with Naib i can slightly see him choosing to stay in like England or just some nearby country with his significant other but with ganji. Like he IS LEAVING i dont care i’m sure he wants to get out of that stinky island but how would it be with Cecile? Like i don’t know how they end up in your story i assume they just stay at the manor forever but like. IF THEY LEFT…….would ganji sacrifice his longtime dream for her? Would he stay for her? Or would Cecile want to actually go to India? Which would be a tough thing for her because it’s such a different world but for Ganji would she do it? LIKE WHAT WOULD THEY DO
When I was writing the headcannons, the question of Ganji and his hometown was on my mind. I can definitely see Naib as a possibility of not going back home, but Ganji on the other hand? Most definitely not.
This is something that his entire backstory is revolved around. His home.
His deduction quests imply that he wasn’t forcibly taken from his home, but he was offered to join the Royal Cricket Team by invitation. They seemingly promised him “specialized training”, and in his introduction trailer, he mentions having love, happiness, and hope and pride because of cricket. In my mind, I assume Ganji believed taking up this offer would only allow him to travel further in the sport, and possibly lead to a better life for he and his family once he came back home. Though the promise was only a mirage, having only one day of training on Sundays (and although Ganji isn’t of any Christian denomination, this adds insult to injury. The dominant religion in Britain is Christianity, and Sunday is viewed as a day of rest.)
Ganji in his trailer, instead of actually practicing, is seen picking up cricket balls and mentions that he is a “gentleman’s toy”. Once he realizes that he’s being used, it does not pair well with receiving an anonymous letter reading, “Go home and save them!” His very next deduction quest is the police report of the fire (which implies his scrambling efforts to go home), and his infamous letter to his mother closes off his quests, “Dear mother, everything’s fine with me. I’m coming home soon.”
Two of his accessories mention his home (three if you squint), Cozy fleece and Bansuri, the former being a toy given to him when young and the latter mentioning his hometown. (Abyssal Prayer could be one, the description saying, “…Longing for a reunion with the lighthouse’s light.”)
With all this piled on, it is impossible for Ganji to go anywhere BUT home if they ever did escape the manor.
Depending on the circumstances with Cecille, she’d go with him. It all comes down to her twin brother, Caden. (NOT my OC btw, my sibling wanted to make a OC for IDV and we added him to be her twin.)
It’s important to remember that Cecille has nothing left but her twin. No parents, no home to go to, no family, no life, nothing. She’s running on spite and grief to catch her ex-fiancée, but there’s nothing for her to go home to.
I would like to think that Cecille and Caden meet up at the manor at some point, Caden most likely coming to the manor to find Cecille in exchange of playing the manor’s game. If this plays out, then Cecille and Caden go to India with Ganji. (I feel like Ganji would be okay with the plan, I headcannon him to be a only child who’s always wanted siblings, and he loves Cecille and isn’t gonna be a dick to tell her to leave her twin behind, especially since she’s opened up to her about the guilt she carries when she left Caden to be with Silas.) Despite it being a different world, the twins have absolutely nothing left. The home they grew up in at this point is gone, Caden had abandoned it (wouldn’t be surprised if he burned it) once he spiraled because of Cecille leaving. There is nothing for them. (Shoutout to doomed siblings)
On the other hand, if Caden weren't to come to the manor, Cecille would have to go out and look for him. She's not making the same mistake that she did all those years ago. How this affects Cecille and Ganji is troubling. As much as they love each other, they know that family comes first, and that is the whole reason why they have to go separate ways. They'd probably have a heartfelt moment crying in each others arms, peppering kisses on each others faces, arms, hands, any visible scars. Shed promise to write to him and go to India once she finds Caden. He promises to tell his mom all about her and that when she finds him, to make sure to let him know so they can prepare for when they arrive and that they'll celebrate.
It just seems so unlikely that Ganji would sacrifice anything to not go home. It is a sad thought, though that is his entire character. Home.
"Even after all this time, Ganji struggles to find a sense of belonging."
He belongs at home.
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fantimati · 3 months ago
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I find it so fascinating that aether and Lumine are so interchangeable when it comes down to it. Like they already had different personalities before hand. They had different likes and dislikes and fighting styles.
but no matter what, the one that stays awake will come to the same conclusion whether it's Aether or Lumine.
And that makes sense. They've rarely if ever have been apart. So effectively they've been the same experiences for a ridiculous amount of time.
And I feel like both of them are counting on that to a certain degree.
Abyss twin is counting on their twin experiencing the same journey they did and literally coming to the same conclusion (the truth of this world).
While the traveler was banking on the abyss twin looking for them as they were.
And it's like... No!!!!! They had very different experiences since landing in teyvat. AT traveled a destroyed teyvat with an equal who wasn't as close to them. Traveler traveled a mostly restored teyvat with a companion they have to protect
They're noticably different now! I'm not sure they're going to come to that conclusion!
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aetherealwish · 10 months ago
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Never Got to Say Goodbye | still accepting!
@nagareboshiko said: "It feels like there's a hole in my heart because I never got to say goodbye." even her fingers are clutching to her chest, she almost feels as if the air gets heavier every time she breaths, every second she spends away from her family. The moon cannot shine without the sun; there's nothing left for her, no light she can shine reflect of.
No amount of distance can truly separate a split soul; even when apart, the stars walk in each other's dreams, their reflections in the mirror showcasing their other half. It's truly a connection unbreakable, both a blessing and curse for the Prince of the Abyss — for as much as he wished to be by the moon's side, there is no place for the sun in a false sky.
Returning to Teyvat's surface isn't an action Aether takes often lest his presence is noticed by unwanted deities, but ever since that first glimpse in Mondstadt. . . it's a guilty pleasure he keeps to himself, to watch from a distance. He may be no guardian angel, but the abyss will always keep an eye on the mysterious Traveler.
Her anguish and pleas don't fall on deaf ears, but the elder twin's conviction has always stood strong. As long as his war against destiny exists, he cannot leave this world just yet.
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"Yet this has never been goodbye," his whispers float along the wind, dismantling before they can reach the intended's wounded heart. "We will be reunited, whether it's in this life or the next."
That will be his promise to her.
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jacksteyvattales · 9 months ago
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Looking back at this brief reunion of the twins, I can't help but think that Paimon was sort of steering the conversation so that Traveler didn't think super hard about the implications.
Whether she was consciously doing that right then, is another matter. But when Traveler said that there were 'so few answers' (paraphrase), it's like... Aether (in my case) already said that he went through the entire world once and came to a conclusion based on that experience, which seems to imply that there is at least one answer so far: that you should stay on your guard about this world. And Paimon at this moment in time is trying to get out of the darkness of the matter- symbolically framing it as getting to the surface instead of meandering in the darkness of the cave.
It's also hard to know how much agency Aether has in this situation, Paimon says, so it's easily framed as 'the Abyss Order corrupting him' just as Dvalin and (whatever the name of the Liyue god beast was, again). And it's easier to think of it that way isn't it? Even if it's not outright said in this case, it's a pattern so you - or rather the Traveler - would take it as read. Though the Abyss-twin having experienced the entire world and come out of it wary, distant and antagonistic is something that you as a player can't not take seriously. Because you know where this kinda shit goes, and the cost of ignoring it.
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hematomes · 1 year ago
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Hey! I'm the anon who talked about how the whole Traveller getting mad at Fontaine twins scenario got spread like wildfire on social media. Just call me Kina for now.
There's something I wanted to add but didn't because my rant was long:
While the twins (and Freminet) aren't bad people (as far as we know), I do find it hilarious that everyone is salty over Aether/Lumine getting angry when anybody, no matter how understanding, will feel very frustrated, conflicted and confused about learning that someone who's been so sincere towards you turns out to be apart of a dangerous group that's responsible for something going wrong in your journey.
Also, Diluc's allowed to hate the Fatui (for very good reason) but the Traveller? No, no, no. Their the protagonist, their supposed to be understanding and everyone's buddy. What a fucking bs reason to justify demonizing Traveller.
i got some insight from the other side and they gave some understandable argument, although it still didn't really make sense to me
from what i understood, the "problem" (for a small minority of people who whine about it, imo. the one side i could picture actually) lies in the inconsistency, specifically when you put the fontaine situation side by side with the one back in inazuma
i could see how it's mildly frustrating to have a main character that is inconsistent on a logical level: being harsh when faced with a lie vs forgiving a character that embodies fanservice (ei) in the blink of an eye despite the fact that she subjected her people to countless horrors and civil wars
to this i say, not unkindly: suck it up. the inazuma archon quest was a shit show, we are finally back on something that MAKES sense and to me personally, that's what matters. id rather keep with an unforgiving traveler that has seen too much now to be too kind (let's however not forget that they offered to be the attorney for the very same people that lied to them lol) and not on their guard. it's what i would call character development - just like how they're more wary when it comes to the archons, thanks to input they got from dainsleif (among other things, like the abyss twin's input for example)
maybe im optimistic in the sense that i have decided to ignore the mishaps and focus on what i enjoy, which is messy yet coherent travels and decisions. let the traveler change, make mistakes, whether that's intentional or due to past poor writing management. maybe im also sentimental, but i like seeing humanity in the character, pouring from the writers' very own: errors, mistakes, whatever
it doesn't make sense? does it absolutely has to? does it really not make sense? i disagree. i like where it's going, and you, like some of us, are providing solid reasons as to why it just works, despite how frustrating it may be to see the main character being insufferable to you. let's use that as a reminder that aether and lumine aren't actual self-inserts
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nibsthoughtcorner · 2 years ago
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The Fallen Angels: An Analysis of the Traveler Twins
Oh look
A Genshin Impact analysis
This goes under that “1 AM Epiphany” category
No, seriously. I went on a mental spiral about this at 1 AM.
But let’s get to it before this gets too long.
As the title suggests, I propose that the Traveler twins’ story arcs (whether intentional or not) seem to have similarities with the Christian fallen angels.
Lemme explain.
In the very beginning of the story, when we see the flashback of The Sustainer of Heavenly Principles fighting the twins, we see that both of them have wings.
And if you look back, they aren’t just one pair of wings with three segments. No. They are three separate pairs of wings. Six wings in total. Now what other Christian figure has six wings? The Seraphim. A powerful group of angels. And we do know that the twins are powerful, but we don’t actually know the extent of their power if it were to be fully restored. So it really raises some questions, the main one being: are they supposed to be angels of some sort?
It makes sense, at least thematically, if that were the case.
But why do I call them “fallen”? Simple.
When they lose their powers, their wings disappear, which is also a common thing with fallen angels. When an angel falls from heaven, their wings are taken away. And with the Sustainer serving as a heavenly being, the fact that she blatantly stole their powers and sent them hurtling down from Celestia is as obvious a comparison as any to falling angels.
On top of that, The Abyss twin’s arc is strangely reminiscent of the backstory of Lucifer (at least from what I know).
Think about it. The Abyss Twin is not only cast out, but clearly holds a form of rage against Celestia just as Lucifer felt wronged by God. The Abyss Twin also goes on to amass legions of creatures also scorned by the heavens and regarded as evil by the common people. And that Abyss Twin then goes on to be regarded as evil themselves (at least by the common people).
You see what I’m saying?
It’s quite fascinating in my opinion, especially since Genshin is no stranger to Christian references (they’re literally using the Ars Goetia like a baby name book for their archons-)
Though while the arc of the Abyss Twin has clear parallels, I’m not so sure about the Traveler.
They seem to be oscillating between the opposing forces. They’re clearly framed as a hero, but as pointed out time and time again by the Genshin community, they’re becoming more and more jaded. So I wonder if they’re “caught in the middle” in a sense. The Traveler learns about Teyvat through a biased perspective (the bias coming from Celestia and their whims, of course, since they exert power over Teyvat through the archons and Visions…and the occasional giant nail of destruction, apparently)
Whereas the Abyss Twin goes through the world with the perspective of the Abyss (the closest equivalent of Hell).
If things keep going the way they’re going in Genshin, then this may mean that the Traveler’s arc is a slow descent, as is the case with fallen angels.
Another small thing to point out is that the twins are intrinsically connected to light. Lumine’s name means light, and Aether’s name means “sky” or “heavens”. And Lucifer’s name literally means “light bringer” (yay more parallels). Plus the Traveler can purify things (such as Dvalin’s tears) just by touching them. They really aren’t being subtle about it.
Now, since I’m still stuck trying to level up characters and enhance weapons and get better artifacts, and haven’t even started Liyue’s archon quest, this is all the evidence and knowledge I have that doesn’t involve me spoiling myself. So, if I make another part to this to add new thoughts based on new information, don’t be surprised.
In any case, I swear by this analysis, and if you liked it, feel free to like and comment. Discussion is more than welcome!
Anyways, hope you enjoyed this, and stay tuned for the next theory/thought/character analysis/1 AM Epiphany
~Nib
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endlessskymaster · 5 months ago
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Depending on the Traveler (Aether or Lumine) the twin selected at the start of the game, the Traveler witnesses firsthand the ongoing horrors the Abyss is inflicting upon Natlan. This raises whether the Traveler's approach toward the Abyss Sibling will shift as a result in the next couple of patches moving forward. Since they're aware, their sibling is responsible for what's going on in Natlan, Abyss-wise.
Despite her tragic past, Chasca's circumstances could have easily led her down the same path as Childe, had things been different.
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HELLO!!! saw your post abt genshin asks in the genshin tag and i couldn't help it. I also have a lot of hc regarding genshin worldbuilding & character(mostly traveler cough cough) so i understand the need to have somebody ask so you can rant about it!
Anyway here i am, asking you about your genshin opinions :)
SHSHJSJSJJSJSJJ THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!
now have my useless genshin opinions and headcanons!!!!!
Aethers transmasc, Lumine is transfem, they stole eachothers deadnames
As much as people wanna say it's Nahida (not that i disagree i actually adore her) Venti is the best archon i will fight people on this
The fatui arent that bad and it would actually make sense for the traveller to end up helping them
When Ei said the archons arent the one giving out visions that wasnt the truth, whether she intentionally lied or not
Theres something suspicious about the fact that the abyss twin is referred to as the prince/princess of the abyss instead of the king/queen
i have some more but those are the main ones once again thank you so much for sending this
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