#torch milgram

[es-daily]

es with the novel wardens they're so silly

day 27

i know that you want silliness, but im sorry anon, you didn't specify what state they're in.

[kani-miso]

ヤババイナ

@officialesmilgram

[clover0101]

yes

[kukuepta1047]

I finally read the second milgram novel

Kinda spoilers for it

Sketch prediction of the end of Milgram(and it explains the Es Touchi art):

[weibenwolken]

I wonder if Mikoto become one of the people who got purged by the end of this, how would they do it?

Will they do what they did to the guilty people in novel & manga? Or would they find a way so that only Mikoto gone without John getting erased too?

Because that would be a great motive for John to join Torch and Jackal in their rebellion

[flamebloom]

Himori-kun, I'm here today

[milgram-fan-archive]

Bonus illustration from Yayori (y7_az7)

[peristille]

How about novelgram character themes?

I suppose, If that is what you asked for, It is what you shall get. I did however, Rush this a bit... But I hope it is satisfactory!

[merotonin]

anyway im bringing this here from discord

[dai-mondai]

Chibis of the Gang

[doctorbunny]

The Jackalope Guide [spoilers for both novels]

I skimmed through the first manga, second novel, side S/W and my memories so hopefully I've not forgotten anything important [text version under cut]

Jackalopes of MILGRAM:

Novel 1

Female/described as having a "woman's voice"

Uses atashi/アタシ pronoun (pretty bog standard feminine pronoun)

Goes by "Jacka"

Requests Es call her a jackalope and not a rabbit [note: there is a Jp equivalent of the phrase "flying pig" 亀毛兎角 kimoutokaku "turtles with fur, rabbits with horns" referring to something impossible, this phrase may be linked to jackalopes]

Newer at her job (compared to other Jackalopes in the series)

Works from a branch office of MILGRAM HQ (reports back to her boss remotely via big TV)

Sadist who enjoys human bloodshed (at one point even giving a stressed out Nervous a box cutter to self harm with, just like the kind she used to use, so Sumi could see who )

Likes organising MILGRAMs with "aesthetic" (IE all of Sumi's prisoners being involved in her death)

In order to prevent information being spoiled too early uses powers to stop the prisoners breathing until they stop trying to talk

Accidentally allows Twoside to give away information too early, spoiling her own MILGRAM

Her and her MILGRAM considered failures (punishable by purging)

Her 'vessel' is chained up by another jackalope (probably youtube jackalope) at the end of the novel then purged but the person was able to escape (because she was in the Branch Office)

Current location/situation unknown (but said to be alive)

Novel 2

Male/described as having a "young man's voice"

Uses jibun/自分 pronoun (slightly unusual as a main pronoun feels kind of soldier-like)

Also goes by "Jacka"

Has run many successful MILGRAMs in the past (allowed to take risks like Torch being the Es of Novel 2)

Works at MILGRAM HQ

Takes smoke breaks after trials

Talks to boss during smoke breaks

Boss is probably Youtube Jackalope

Hates bloodshed and doesn't care about the aesthetics or drama of a MILGRAM

When Tatsumi tried to kill Torch, Jacka retaliates by using his powers to take control of Tatsumi's body and make him strangle himself

He stops when Tatsumi passes out/Torch says he doesn't want Tatsumi to die, but if not for Torch, Jacka would've killed him

Hates his job/boss

Relieved to hear that Jacka1 escaped purging

Despite working at milgram for many years, did not know there was a branch office

At the end of the novel he defects from MILGRAM, forming a collaboration with Torch and showing/taking him through the secret exit

Asks Torch how he'd feel if someone he loved was judged guilty by MILGRAM (possibly implied to be something that happened to him?)

Youtube

Male/"Speaks arrogantly"

Uses Ore-sama/オレ様 (comically self important)

Internal monologue in Side W/S uses watashi/私 (significantly less arrogant)

Only goes by Jackalope

Insulted if you call him a rabbit

Appears at the end of the first novel to punish Jacka/judge Sumi

Appears during second novel's post-trial smoke breaks (human form in milgram HQ)

Was the one to approve Torch being a guard even though he didn't think it was a good idea

Hates smoking and asks Jacka2 to not do it

Highly values the aesthetic/elegance of a MILGRAM

Wants a "pure" milgram with the fewest possible distractions in the judgement of sin

Used the same kind of memory erasure on Es that Jacka1 used on everyone

Believes Es needs to trust him for MILGRAM to work

Probably responsible for Es' barrier (the 'hypnosis' lines up with other jackalope's mind/body controlling)

Views end of 2nd novel as the worst event in milgram history

Cooks the food for the prisoners (sheds lots of fur)

[archivalofsins]

Hey let me say something- For those curious the Amane innocent verdict is more worth it than ever. Me right now,

"Ain't no sympathy here, this shit's hilarious."

If he got bodied by anyone younger than him after all that good shit he talked about adults! Best believe-

I am here like this.

I said it then and I'll say it again. To shreds you say? It must be embarrassing to have a fave that folds like laundry. Mahiru and Haruka would never. Mahiru got her ass handed to her trial one intermission. Since she has struggled to hold onto life even under the care of a man who is notorious for committing malpractice.

They put the prison on that girl just to put out her life.

But people really want me to believe all that was needed for Shidou was Amane. At that point paper skin glass bones. Haruka had to put it on himself. What does Shidou really look like other than weak for this shit?

Pathetic.

The whole prison better have been on this man because if it was just the child. Ooof I wouldn't be announcing that. That shit is embarrassing. I mean I hope Amane had a weapon because if not Shidou is a joke well no that would still be a bit more than what he was.

He'd be a punchline.

It's really giving pathetic, it's giving weak, it's giving I decided to fight with a child-

22/10/24 (Shidou’s Birthday)

Amane: ……Kirisaki Shidou. How long do you plan on continuing this foolish behaviour?

Shidou: I wonder what you might be referring to there. I’m just doing what I need to do. If anything, I’d be happy if you would lend me a hand.

Amane: I warned you. I can no longer turn a blind eye to this wickedness taking place right in front of us. You’re bringing ruin unto yourself. Do you understand?

Shidou: No, I don’t understand. It’s my job as an adult to teach you that throwing a temper tantrum isn’t going to make everything go your way. If it’s a test of endurance you want, I’m happy to oblige, Amane.

And lost.

He was happy to oblige but he could not finish. He failed that test of endurance. It's giving collect your man's ashes to me. Come pick him up the child has obliterated him. Grab a broom and a dustpan he will not be needing cremation that child was just that about it. It's giving boo-hoo I didn't expect to actually fight a child and fucking lose.

Which is not the man Shidou was. He came in here wanting to be killed by a child while not having to think on or feel bad about any of the things he has done to others.

The truth is Shidou Kirisaki got everything he wanted out of Milgram.

He was never made to feel bad for his choices. If Amane was the cause of his demise he got to die by the hands of a child something he was trying to put on Es from jump. He got what he wanted and left. He was already planning not to be here telling Yuno in case anything happened to him at least she would still be there to take on his responsibilities.

24/09/02 (Yuno’s Birthday)

Shidou: Thank you for your assistance with Shiina-kun’s treatment. It’s been a big help having you here. Both for her and for me. It’s good to know that even if something happens to me, you’ll still be around.

Yuno: No way. I can’t do anything on my own. All I’m doing is helping with whatever you’re doing. It’s just like playing pretend as a nurse.

Shidou: No, you’ve got a good sense for things like this. You’re quick to notice things, calm, and fearless. If you haven’t decided what you want to be in the future, maybe you should consider becoming a doctor yourself.

Yuno: You think so? ……haha, stop it. I don’t want to be thinking about the future right now. And for someone like me to have other people’s lives in my hands…… that’s no laughing matter.

He was already trying to pass on the torch and responsibilities to others. Trying to make sure if something happened to him Yuno would take on as doctor and Kazui would look after these troubled youths.

All things that in hindsight seem like the words of someone who planned to die the way he wanted to from the start at the hands of a child. Everyone wants to talk about Shidou as though he didn't get everything he wanted while consistently taking from those around him.

Yet the truth of the matter is he did. He got to lament his family, be told by the audience he was innocent, in the right for the things he did while never once showing the faces of the people he made into victims for his own gain or the faces of their families in Throw Down.

He got the convenient excuse of all his patients being brain dead something that he as a doctor/surgeon is not allowed to diagnosis because that's the job of two neurologists and when doctors just assume or say that many times they are wrong.

His line in Undercover was,

"“UNDER” Which way will you throw down your weight To be the deceived, or the deceiver."

To me it seems like a lot of people have yet to accept they choose to be decieved.

[nemuka]

Have any of ever thought if Es was payed. Like I genuinely think they don’t so ig Milgram is supporting child labor. But if they did what would they be payed with??? Food??? Room upgrades?? Very likely not money because from my knowledge (forgive me if im wrong) in the novels sumi and torch the past es were high school seniors so they likely had bank accounts but Es is FIFTEEN so it’s not really possible for them

[snailstriad]

Connections Between Novel and Current Milgram

Alright, it's theory time. While it's not confirmed yet, after Kotoko's music video, I am certainly sure that the two novels and our current Milgram are connected. Because their motives fit so well? Maybe some of you know about our "snails theory," right? If not or if you've forgotten about it, please take a look at it too! [in our twitter under the same name] (I must say that some parts of the theory (e.g the voices part) are wrong, but it is a theory after all.) To summarize, we think Haruka, Muu, Shidou, Amane, and Mikoto's beliefs and mindsets come from the first novel, and Yuno, Fuuta, Mahiru, Kazui, and Kotoko's mindsets and their thoughts resemble the second novel. First of all, please do not forget that we are not connecting crimes. Maybe you can see similarities but I, too, believe crimes and storyline different(not completely because of Touchi) from our current trials. This theory is only about mindsets. Well, let's start with 1st novel characters.

Our first prisoner, Gentle. He is a very emotional man to me. And killing a man, who is about to kill a woman. Of course this is pure coincidence but the thought of killing one life to save the others is bugging me. Because of this, I feel like there is a parallel between Gentle and Shidou.

Nervous. Her anxiety of being useless and a failure is similar to Muu actually. Another point that these two have in common is wanting to be appreciated. This desire for acknowledgment adds a psychological layer, suggesting how much external validation influences their thoughts and actions.

Considering that Close and Gentle are siblings, you might think I've lost my mind for what I'm about to say next, but yes, I believe Close and Amane have similar thought patterns. Let's look at the events this way: Close is someone who would do anything and everything to get the person she loves. However, after all the events, she no longer fears suffering. In fact, she wanted to experience pain and didn't seek help. This reminds me a lot of Amane. Maybe in the future, I'll prepare a separate theory for Amane, but I always felt that in that famous electric shock scene, Amane was afraid of pain, so it seemed like she was trying to comply with the rules. However, after her father's death, and of course, when she came to Milgram, she tried not to fear pain and even attempted to surpass the help she received.

The next prisoner, in my opinion, is probably the easiest to connect among all the characters: Two-Face. Initially, I had wondered besides the name, what similarities there could be with Mikoto, but then I realized I had overlooked the most important thing. Both of them were unaware of the consequences of their actions. As you know, Mikoto was completely oblivious to everything. On the other hand, Two-Face genuinely didn't know that what he was attempting could lead to an actual murder.

Our last character from the first novel is Torch. Firstly, when we saw less of Torch's story and mindset compared to the second novel, I couldn't liken him to anyone. However, later, with the release of the second novel, I understood that the reason Torch's (or Touchi's) life was saved was Milgram. Through Milgram, he found the love he had been seeking for a long time, thanks to Sumi. When I look at this child who has no one in his life, I see Haruka. Both are individuals without anyone and in need of love. Additionally, Milgram, who saved Touchi, also saved the first trial Haruka. The lack of self-confidence he had when he first arrived was overcome thanks to Milgram.

Our first prisoner in the second novel: Tatsumi. I might exceed my thread limit before finishing listing the commonalities with Fuuta. First, let's talk about how both perceive their crimes as a symbol of justice. For those who haven't read it, I'll give a brief overview of the common theme in the second novel: all the characters' crimes are based on a kind of murder trend called "justifiable righteous murder." When Touchi asks him what justice means, Tatsumi responds, "Justice is a social media hashtag." Most likely, you've already understood where I'm going with this: both share similar thoughts about the concept of justice. Another shared aspect is that both constantly question the concept of justice they possess.

Rina and Mei, since they share the same trial, I'll continue without separating them. In my previous theory, I talked about how Yuno and Mahiru are opposites of each other, yet still closely connected. The same holds true for Rina and Mei; they are almost opposites, but their attitudes towards all these events are still the same. It's similar to Yuno and Mahiru; Yuno has a very cold personality while Mahiru is the opposite. However, when it comes to Milgram and its rules, both pairs' thoughts align remarkably.

Alright, this was the person I found the most challenging to connect among all the prisoners: Tomonari. Because, honestly, when I first looked at him, nothing came to mind except the word "psychopath." However, if you look at Tomonari's actions, despite all the darkness within, he never tried to kill anyone until the very end, somewhat keeping his "true personality" hidden. You might get upset with me, I know, but I associate him with Kazui. As I mentioned, this theory is not about the crimes they committed. Kazui, too, chose to lie and conceal his true self until the very end of his life. In my view, they are similar because of these choices they made.

Finally, the last prisoner, Mako. First, I can't go without mentioning that, in Kotoko's MV, I saw Kotoko closely following the "Justifiable Righteous Murder" trend created by Mako (even looking at the news of Tatsumi's murder). Both of the characters are individuals willing to kill for the goals they have set in their minds. Additionally, both characters closely follow the workings of Milgram and manipulate it in line with their own interests.

[blueepink07]

Things that I like/find interesting about the Milgram novel! (Spoilers)

->The novel expanded the world of Milgram

->It shows that with every trial, Milgram upgrades his system for better judgment.(Examples: the invisible forces; in the novel, Jacka has to activate it, while in the current Milgram, Es has it at all times. Also, they function the same as the current ones because you will receive the same pain you inflicted while you attacked or killed.)

->Prisoners didn't receive restrains if they caused chaos in Milgram. They were simply forced to stay in their cell

->Jackalopes do not necessarily approve of Milgram( it's unfortunate that our Jackalope is having the time of his life right now)

->Tatsumi. I mean look at him, he is really cute. The fact that he could have been bffs with Torch.

->Rina and Mei's relationship. So cute!!

The way Rina smiles at Mei!!

->Torch's development. He truly changed from the first novel. Also this:

->Jackalopes are the ones that decide on the main part how Milgram's prisons look. See how our Jackalope chose such a simple design, while Jacka(novel) had a library and Entertainment centre?? Jackalope (current one) really wants to push the idea that the prisoners are just tools to judge sins.

->Prisoners after are judged don't seem to matter anymore for Milgram...?

->Jackalopes may be or not be the ones who decide who will be the next Es. (not sure)

->Lastly, this thing:

The vessel is most probably the bunny. So yeah, not magical creatures, but somehow real persons who are transformed(??) in Jackalopes.( I mean it has been hinted, considering that the voice of Jackalopes is always described with terms such as 20s male or something like that) At least that's how I understand? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!

[mayimkjs]

So what happened at the end of the T2 summery?

Taken from the FOOL's MATE research doc

Who is this?

At the end of “Report on the end of Second Trial”, there is a possibly unknown character or a Jackalope. He’s voiced by Fukuyama Jun so your lead to believe that it’s our Jackalope. 

I believe that this is either our Jackalope or a completely new character, possibly some sort of boss. The version of Jackalope we see in this scene is speaking with a calmer and less comical tone. He normally uses 俺様 (ore sama) as his personal pronoun, but at the end of the T2 review, he uses 私 (watashi), which is more of a feminine/neutral pronoun. He also doesn't talk exactly like Jackalope.

The ending is definitely directed at us through. 

At the very end of the video, there’s what looks like a silhouette of a person that gets closer to the screen. I doubt that he's going to reveal himself at the beginning of the text trial. Maybe halfway through or towards the end.

The Role of Jackalopes in MILGRAM

Jackalopes guide the guard, Es, and make sure that trial go smoothly. They also make sure that Es isn’t getting too close to the prisoners. 

Each Es has their own Jackalope; Sumi had a girl (Jacka), Touchi had a guy and our Es also has a guy. 

Jackalopes may be the ones who decide who will be the next Es.

Jackalopes can also have their own free will and personalities. The one from the first novel tries to manipulate everyone and the one in the second novel hates his job.

Jackalopes also have a human form.

But who exactly is our Jackalope?

Jackalope is something that is being controlled by someone else

Jackalope has mentioned that “I guess that’s how it is in your era” when talking Yuno’s murder and “it was quite brilliant to choose our era”. So it’s clear he’s not originally from our era and is likely from the past as he has a negative view of abortion. 

It can’t be the boss jackalope or Torch from the novel as they use different pronouns. 

Jackalopes in Folklore

In folklore, they are aggressive and defensive. Jackalopes are said to be so dangerous that hunters are advised to wear stovepipes keep their legs from being gored. One of the ways to catch a jackalope is to entice it with whiskey. Jackalopes can imitate the human voice and often sound like a tenor, which our Jackalope is.

The Origin of the Modern Jackalope

Jackalopes originate from North American, specifically Wyoming, and are described as a jackrabbit with antelope horns. Rabbits have been depicted with horns as far back as the 13th century, but the first modern jackalope was created in 1932 by Douglas Herrick and his brother. Herrick had the idea to combine a jackrabbit and antelope horns after his brothers returned from a hunting trip for jackrabbits. Herrick tossed one of the carcasses into his taxidermy store next to a pair of antelope horns which sparked the idea to combine the 2.