#this does not mean i support what they did with steve’s character in s4

[thestobingirlie]

hi! i’m the anon who asked about your opinion on stancy and nancy’s selfishness a few days ago. thanks so much for your reply! i saw the tags your reblogged to that ask, and i actually wanted to add one something to the discussion.

i hope this doesn’t come across as trying to counter your answer. that’s not at all what i want to do. i actually completely agree that if nancy worked on some of here tendencies, stancy could be a pretty decent ship, and i also like the parallel of her presence wanting stve to be a beter person, and the opposite happening. i also agree that nancy’s relationships with other people have a lot of unexplored potential and that many of her issues are due to the writing.

i think the part where my opinion differs is because without the narrative supporting nancy, i have a hard time seeing stancy without steve’s anger, at least initially, about the way he was treated in their relationship. he knows nancy was using him, to an extent, when she called thier relationshp bullshit. she said they both murdered barb. steve may or may not know about the cheating, but he does know she got together with jonathan within a few days of their fight/break up, which would have raised some questions. and for me, i think this anger is as important as nancy’s grief over barb was, in that i can’t see stancy without it, in fandom or canon.

i guess robin is another example, although hostility, instead of anger, may be a better word. robin and nancy know each other as steve’s friend and steve’s ex. robn holds grudges; she was pissed at steve for eating a bagel wrong. it doesn’t make sense for her to follow around the girl who dumped him with starry eyes. i can’t really buy any of robin and nancy’s s4 friendship, because, for me, robin’s hostility should have been central to it. yes, nancy is a traumatized teen, but she's not the only traumatized teen the group.

again, i hope this doesn’t come across as me trying to counter your answer. i love your more positive takes on stancy, and i honestly think that having more positive views of characters can lead to a much better fandom experience.

i wanted to send this in more for discussion. i thought it was interesting how focusing on slightly different aspects of a character or their relationships (i.e. the potential for nancy and steve to grow vs focusing on steve's anger) could result in very different ideas on how we want their storyline to go. if you have any thoughts on this, i’d love to hear them!

thanks in advance :)

hey anon, that’s actually a really good point!!

i think when it comes to steve’s reaction to the break up at large (i’ll get into the cheating in a second), i can more forgive it than the way nancy’s actions are treated elsewhere because steve is just so totally in love with her. he can accept that he’s not the one she wants because he just wants her to be happy. which is why he steps aside. his love for nancy overrides any resentment he may feel.

i do however think as he gains distance from the relationship, he would kinda think… maybe i deserve better than that. maybe nancy shouldn’t have stuck by me if she thought we killed barb. maybe she should’ve just waited for jonathan. but i think with time and the two of them growing as people, this is totally something they can have a conversation about, and look back on more maturely etc.

but the cheating is slightly different. even if you only recognise it as more emotional cheating than physical, it’s still a major issue of steve’s. especially if the person cheating is someone he wants a long, serious relationship with. i don’t think steve would go nuclear like he did in s1, he’s grown a lot emotionally since then, and he cares a lot more for nancy, so i just don’t think he’d want to do that to her. but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t affect him. at what point, and who he found out from would depend on how deeply he was wounded. i do think it’d probably make him take a step back, and reevaluate the relationship. and i think if it wasn’t nancy that told him, that could really have a bad impact on stancy. i kinda waver on whether i think nancy telling him in s2 vs s4 would be better. in s2 it’s a lot more raw, but at least he would know immediately. and in s4, he’s healed more from the relationship, but it’s been kept from him for so long.

but regardless (if it was one of better reveal options), i do ultimately think it’s something they could come back from. they’re young, and they’ve both made mistakes, and i think if nancy totally admitted she fucked up with the cheating, their relationship could recover. though i do think if we allowed steve to truly feel betrayed and angry, stancy wouldn’t be getting together anytime soon. at least until steve’s gotten over his mommy and daddy’s issues lmao.

and i think you’re totally right about robin too. it would make so much sense for her to hold a little grudge against nancy. for a couple reasons: 1. stancy shit. 2. nancy not knowing her at starcourt despite being in the same grade. 3. the barb shit (if we go by the books, which i wish we did!!!! makes them so much more interesting). i just think friction between robin and nancy could elicit so much growth for nancy. less so for robin i suppose, because i think a lot of her friendship with steve did that kind of work, but it would still have impact!

and don’t worry! i do really love discussions like these! focusing on characters in a more positive light is really enjoyable, but it can still be fun to pick apart the more fucked up things they’ve done. and i’m a hater at heart so ❤️ lmao

[kurokoros]

First off, I completely agree with you about Nancy! She was a character that had so much potential and then the Duffers flopped. The issue is everyone treats her like a paragon, a goddess that can do no wrong while she's rude and selfish and mean to other characters. I have more to say, but then this ask would end up very long. [Also I've seen people complaining that Nancy doesn't get storylines outside of romance. That is wrong. The investigations of the lab and the rats are all her. It's her Love Interest in those seasons, Jonathan, (And I have my issues with him, specifically his "apology" after taking the photos, but I digress) that gets snubbed in those seasons. His job is to literally follow and support Nancy in whatever she does, even if those go against his own morals. What Nancy needs is a character arc. She needs to learn from her mistakes, instead of them being brushed under rug.] Secondly, the lab. They created a dead body to get people to stop investigating Will's disappearance. Like they can do the same thing for Barb. Death and dead bodies are a good way to stop investigations, as proven by Will. Like, there's literally an easy solution right there! That is a massive massive loop hole. Realistically, that's what would have happened.

Nancy would have benefited so much from a moment of pushback against one of her ideas, and not in the way that S3 did where it turned out that actually she was in the right the entire time and everyone opposing her was comically sexist, Like, Nancy girl you're a 17 year old intern who as far as we know has only been interested in journalism for like eight months, of course no one is going to listen to your ideas because realistically you don't know what you're talking about.

I'm just not a fan of corporate feminist girlboss characters who are always in the right, or who don't have flaws that actually seem like flaws. Nancy is a reckless character and I'd love to see the show portray that as detrimental in some way. Nancy is also a selfish and self-righteous and the writers never do anything with that, ever.

Also, if any character doesn't get a plot outside of romance, it's Steve. S1 he's Nancy's boyfriend. S2 the entire first half of the season is just him dating Nancy and then being sad about their fight. S3 his character is suddenly awkward with girls and kind of a loser, and Dustin keeps telling him to date Robin. S4 all he really has for his own character arc is suddenly being into Nancy again. Steve doesn't have hobbies anymore. He doesn't have friends outside of the kids and Robin. We don't know anything about his family or life outside of each seasonal monster crisis. Nancy has friends, family, and future asperations. Her plotline each season involves her investigating X plot-relevant thing. She's in no way tied to her romances, whereas Steve and Jonathan have been getting less and less to do each season.

The lab not making a fake body for Barb was just... really weird. We're shown that they can make an incredible convincible fake body in S1, but then instead of making another one for Barb they decide to make her "run away" and leave a loose end? It just doesn't make sense to me.

[empress-of-snark]

Girl, 7. and 12. for the Choosing Violence ask game! For Stranger Things, because we both like Stranger Things! :D Air your grievances.

7: what character did you begin to hate not because of canon but because how how the fandom acts about them?

This is tough because there aren’t really any Stranger Things characters that I hate? I mean, aside from the obvious ones that no one likes lol.

(and, okay, I’m not a big fan of Billy, but that’s because of how he acts in canon, not fan interpretation)

I’ll be honest, I get a little tired of everyone fawning over Steve sometimes. Don’t get me wrong, I definitely don’t hate him! He’s a great character, but the fandom definitely goes overboard on the Steve train. Like, calm down and show a little love for someone else once in a while, maybe? I know he’s the fan favorite, but there’s a lot of other characters that are just as good but don’t get as much attention cause Joe Keery is cute.

12: the unpopular character that you actually like and why more people should like them

Justice for my boy Jonathan Byers!

Not unliked necessarily, just ignored. I think people tend to overlook him because he’s quiet and not as conventionally attractive as Steve, Billy, Eddie, etc. But he’s such an interesting character and he loves his family so much!! Not to mention, Charlie Heaton does such a great job and I think his performance gets ignored a lot as well!

I don’t love how he was mostly portrayed as comic relief in s4, but I’ve also seen people argue that his behavior is a result of him getting to act his age for the first time in a long time. With Will growing up and gaining independence, he doesn’t have as much responsibility as he used to and he reacts to that by smoking a bunch of weed because that’s a thing that an eighteen-year-old boy would do lol. But I do love his scene with Will that basically says that he knows Will is gay and loves and supports him no matter what. They hadn’t had a good scene together in a long while, so that was really great.

(Not me coming up with another Westing Game parallel, but Theo Theodorakis! He spends so much time looking after his brother and feeling responsible for him that he hardly leaves any time for himself! When asked to list his occupation, Theo literally writes “brother” because being Chris’s brother is such an essential part of his identity, and that’s such a Jonathan Byers move.)

I also think that people put way too much emphasis on the fact that he took that picture of Nancy in season one without her consent, but consistently ignore the fact that he owns up to the mistake and apologizes to her and she forgives him. I know that it was a shitty thing to do, but it is explicitly acknowledged as such in canon.

Anyway, rambling but if the Duffers kill him in season five, it’s on sight.

Thanks so much for the ask! ♥️

[nyxelestia]

The thing about 'the closet' is that it's also not really a singular place. You often had to come out over and over and over again, and sometimes - in an era prior to social media blurring the lines of our social spaces into nonexistence - you could be out in one place but not another. It was easy, and even common, to be fully out in one group but completely closeted in another. Maybe your whole family knows you're queer and love and support you, but absolutely no one at your workplace knows or can know. Or hell, it might be the other way around! And even in the same friend group, there might be one person you trust and another you don't. You could very easily have friends who you think are actually homophobic and friends who simply aren't challenging homophobia and friends who might be allies, all in the same group and all looking the same except under very rare circumstances. Coming out involved being ready to face the possibility that the person you were coming out to would react so badly that they would tell EVERYBODY about you, they would bring your whole world crashing down around you, they would burn you out of your friends and family and community - because that was a thing that happened. And sometimes that was a risk that you took many, many times, rather than all at once. Looping back to Stranger Things - it was an incredible act of trust and courage for Robin to come out to Steve, and I don't think it's a coincidence that this was only possible after they risked their lives multiple times in a row. Steve took a beating for Robin at this point and helped rescue her from a crazy conspiracy involving secret soviet operations and interdimensional monsters. I've seen the reading that this was Robin realizing she could trust Steve, but I actually don't quite buy that. (Disclaimer: I haven't seen Season 4 so maybe this was jossed, but I saw this interpretation even before S4 was confirmed let alone premiered.) To me, Robin coming out to Steve when she did was less about trust, and more about her making sure Steve knew "what" he was risking his life for. He already risked his life and limb for his coworker, his friend, his crush; would he still be willing to do so for 'a dyke'? 'A queer'? A lesbian? In this time and place, Robin had very real reason to fear that the answer would turn out to be "no"...but equally real reasons to hope for the answer to be "yes" - and because this is a fictional work created for an audience that is increasingly queer or queer-allied, the character's hopes come true. Reality has not always been so kind. We should always advocate for a kinder future, but this does not mean forgetting how cruel our past was.

So if you follow me (and aren't just stopping by because you saw one of my funney viralposts), you probably know that I've been writing a bunch of fanfiction for Stranger Things, which is set in rural Indiana in the early- to mid-eighties. I've been working on an AU where (among other things) Robin, a character confirmed queer in canon, gets integrated into a friend group made up of a number of main characters. And I got a comment that has been following me around in the back of my mind for a while. Amidst fairly usual talk about the show and the AU and what happens next, the commenter asked, apparently in genuine confusion, "why wouldn't Robin just come out to the rest of the group yet? They would be okay with it."

I did kind of assume, for a second or two, that this was a classic case of somebody confusing what the character knows with what the author/audience knows. But the more I think about it, the more I feel like it embodies a real generational shift in thinking that I hadn't even managed to fully comprehend until this comment threw it into sharp perspective.

Because, my knee-jerk reaction was to reply to the comment, "She hasn't come out to these people she's only sort-of known for less than a year because it's rural Indiana. In the nineteen-eighties." and let that speak for itself. Because for me and my peers, that would speak for itself. That would be an easy and obvious leap of logic. Because I grew up in a world where you assumed, until proven otherwise, that the general society and everyone around you was homophobic. That it was unsafe to be known to be queer, and to deliberately out yourself required intention and forethought and courage, because you would get negative reactions and you had to be prepared for the fallout. Not from everybody! There were always exceptions! But they were exceptions. And this wasn't something you consciously decided, it wasn't an individual choice, it wasn't an individual response to trauma, it wasn't individual. It was everybody. It was baked in, and you didn't question it because it was so inherently, demonstrably obvious. It was Just The Way The World Is. Everybody can safely be assumed to be homophobic until proven otherwise.

And what this comment really clarified for me, but I've seen in a million tiny clashing assumptions and disconnects and confusions I've run into with The Kids These Days, is that a lot of them have grown up into a world that is...the opposite. There are a lot of queer kids out there who are assuming, by default, that everybody is not homophobic, until proven otherwise. And by and large, the world is not punishing them harshly for making that assumption, the way it once would have.

The whole entire world I knew changed, somehow, very slowly and then all at once. And yes, it does make me feel like a complete space alien just arrived to Earth some days. But also, it makes me feel very hopeful. This is what we wanted for ourselves when we were young and raw and angrily shoving ourselves in everyone's faces to dare them to prove themselves the exception, and this is what I want for The Kids These Days.

(But also please, please, Kids These Days, do try to remember that it has only been this way since extremely recently, and no it is not crazy or pathetic or irrational or whatever to still want to protect yourself and be choosy about who you share important parts of yourself with.)

[sourstiless]

media literacy is dead.

like i am all for giving steve more background. i’d absolutely love if the duffers stopped being afraid of doing anything outside of the box with his character, like exploring his trauma or going into detail about his home life, but my god. him having a mysterious background doesn’t mean his character lacks substance. and the fact that y’all think that his only character trait is being in a love triangle just proves to be you’ve made no effort to actually watch the show or his character at all💀

like are y’all forgetting the reason he character became so popular is because of his development lmfaoooo his character is actually so interesting because the way his story develops is not at all what you’d expect from the show. he goes from being a stereotypical jock who only cares about himself, and how he’s perceived by others, to someone who would quite literally die for kids he’s come to love like family. while his development isn’t often what moves the plot forward, that does not equate to lacking substance. steve could have easily ended up the way billy hargrove did, but he didn’t because he actively chose to improve himself because he wanted to be better. he didn’t do it for nancy, because if he had, he would have dropped the act after he found out about her and jonathan.

steve’s growth is personal. it’s not necessarily for the main plot, but simply for the character himself. his character is about discovering who you are, and finding out that all the things you’re told as a child that are important, aren’t, and how mundane they feel to worry about when you get into the real world. how stupid you feel when you look back on who you were before because everything you now seems so obvious to you. like are you forgetting the entire scene in the russian base with him and robin where he literally admits that everything is just bullshit, and that the things he thought were worthy or concern weren’t all the important in the end ???

like one of the comments was mocking how he “so damaged” for his dad being mad he didn’t make it into college, but canonically we see the affect that has on him. he feels like he doesn’t have a future, and that he’s going to be stuck working a minimum wage job for the rest of his life. and you don’t need to be told in bold capital letters that yeah, in fact, not getting into college and feeling like you don’t have a future IS damaging. seeing people your age have their life figured out but you don’t makes you feel like you’re behind in life, that you’re never going to catch up, and just because steve doesn’t have a neon sign floating about his head telling you that, you can most definitely infer it from the context clues in that entire season. making educated and informed inferences about a character from context given in said piece of media, doesn’t make it “weird” or something that only exists in fanon. show don’t tell is often used in writing to keep the reader or the watcher engaged and thinking. and this storyline that steve was going through is something that is incredibly relatable to a lot of people, but especially younger people. not know what you want to do and feeling like you don’t have a future. it’s not tied to his love life, it’s just something that so many people go through at that age. it’s a very grounding experience, and makes him feel that much more real. please use your critical thinking skills.

and while i would love for them to address the whole “being tortured by russians” thing and the “being choked and mauled to death by demobats” thing, substance doesn’t equal traumatizing backstory. if that’s what your definition of substance is, you have a very surface level understanding of writing. not every character has to have a sob story to be a good, fleshed out character.

[dopeasspancake]

Billy antis will cite dialogue that was scrapped from the script so they can call him racist but don’t keep that same energy about Steve’s original plot line to literally SA Nancy. If it didn’t make it into the show or any other official media, then it’s not canon. Like I thought that was rule number 1???

Billy’s “a certain type of people you stay away from” line is always automatically assumed racist, in part because of said scrapped line. But if we line this up in the context of his childhood, then why are we not allowed to assume he simply means boys/men/people who yell at/upset/hurt you? He saw enough of that growing up and now within the first week in this new town he sees Max near tears after visibly arguing with a boy.

If it’s not this excuse then it’s “well he attacked Steve for no reason.” Like excuse me, Billy has barely known of Steve for like 4 days, then finds his sister being hidden in a creepy house in the woods and an 18 year old boy is trying to lie to him and tell him she’s not there. Billy has zero context to the situation so has no idea why Steve would lie unless something Not Right was going on. If you were their age and that was your little sister, what would you think? Yeah, if I thought an 18yo was trying to prey on my 13yo sibling I’d be throwing hands too.

If you want to hate him that’s your right, but y’all do some weird mental gymnastics to try to justify it.**

Makes me hope twice as hard that Billy shows up in S4 just to spite the antis who apparently really hate characters with actual dimension to them.

EDIT FOR CLARIFICATION:

I am NOT saying that it’s impossible Billy was being racist. I’m just saying that it’s not the ONLY way to read it. It wouldn’t be the first time characters in a movie/show/book were written to intentionally make you think ill of their intentions only to find out the creators purposely wanted viewers/readers to misinterpret actions because it allowed for a plot twist later.

** mental gymnastics refers to the antis who specifically cite the cut dialogue to “confirm” Billy is racist but ignore that this line of thought would also “confirm” Steve is okay with committing SA.

And at the end of the day, part of what makes a character interesting is them not being perfect, and then learning to overcome that. Billy clearly was not raised well or by loving parents. For a long time, he only knew what he was taught (by his father). He was still only a teenager in S3. In the 80s racism/sexism/etc were not the open topics that they are today unfortunately. Today kids know better much younger, but these issues weren’t so freely talked about back then.

Now does any of that make it okay to be racist? No. But are we allowed to believe that it’s not 100% a fact that Billy was racist? Or that if he was, he (ideally) would have had plenty of time to learn and grow and change his ways? Yes.

Antis: don’t pretend you’ve never found a villain to be one of your favorite characters. Plenty of beloved heroes and anti-heroes in media started out as straight up villains. But does that mean everyone who loves those characters are okay with murder and all the other bad things that character did prior? Absolutely not.

Loving a character while acknowledging their flaws doesn’t make the people who love that character a supporter of racism or abuse or any of their other bad traits. It just means we understand that young people have a lot of potential to learn from mistakes and grow. It’s called character development.

[memes-saved-me]

Ive seen so many people talking about this but I just wanted to put my 2 cents in. What do you think about Steve this season? I feel like he went backwards rather than showing real growth. In my opinion Nancy doesn’t deserve him after all that ya know, BULLSHIT. Now he’s trying to get her back? Instead of realizing he doesn’t need a girlfriend? That would’ve been some real growth right there, unless they’re setting that up for 5? I don’t have any opinion on her and Jonathan so I’m not just being biased, it doesn’t seem right at all. And what about his relationship with the kids? It was all kind of weird. He babysat them and protected them for 3 years, and in 4 he just seems so…careless? The only scene he really shows concern for them is the graveyard scene in dear Billy. I mean yeah he’s still trying to be this protector, but idk it just seemed so off??

I think they planned to just have him and Robin be a couple in S4 but when that got changed they had to redo his entire arch for S4 and did a shit job of it. It makes zero sense for him to suddenly want Nancy back after two whole seasons of him getting over her. I thought we'd reached a point in S3 where he realised he didn't need romantic love to be happy and having friends was just as important but then they threw that away for him looking for "the one" which is in character but they're implying Nancy will always be the perfect soulmate for Steve and that doesn't add up for me. Even the actors don't seem on board with Natalie swerving the conversation into fans interest in Nancy and Robin when asked who she wants Nancy to end up with.

Its like they didn't know what to do with him so instead of having him just be the protector of the group, act jealous of Eddie, support and joke around with Robin they went for making him slide back into where he was at the start of S2. Steve is 19/20 and sure he probably wants to find someone to have his 6 nuggets with but Nancy is not that person and the fact he can't tell she isn't is a clear sign they wouldn't work out.

I'm not the biggest fan of her to begin with so having her repeat her behaviour with Steve that she did with Jonathan in S1&2 really pissed me off. One miscommunication and she's ready to jump back on Steve's dick. It was the worst side plot of the season and I like to pretend it doesn't exist.

Also, Robin pushing Steve towards a girl who broke his heart and moved on within like a day for the guy she had been in love with for pretty much the whole relationship who she is still actively with is insane. Eddie I can forgive because he doesn't know the details but Robin sure as hell does and if I saw my best friend in his situation I'd be giving them a verbal smack to the face and telling them to not go through that again.

His little speech about being dumb and always crawling backwards but Nancy made him go forward made me laugh because S4 couldn't have been further from the truth. Like I know they all think they might die but Nancy isn't worried about Jonathan the entire season because she's too busy staring at Steve.

I mean even in S3 he wasn't fully bothered by Erica or Dustin being in danger. This whole Steve is a babysitter trick has worn off and isn't a funny joke anymore. He'd probably die to save them but he isn't actively going to try and stop them from running head first into danger because he can't. He just follows them to try and keep them safe to a certain extent.

[rovickies]

Well there’s no “supposed to” you’re allowed to prefer whatever ship you like, whether it’s likely to be canon or not!! If you like 2 characters’ personalities/dynamic together better, you don’t really need to change that for anyone.

(hi, sorry we’re not mutuals but i was just looking at the rovickie tag for content and saw this post so i thought to respond and give my thoughts)

But for me personally...I recognize that Ronance had more actual interaction and development so far, and I do ship them, but I think canonically it’s intended to be platonic so I didn’t get that invested in them as a potential couple tbh. Robin actively encouraged both Steve and Nancy to go back together, so I don’t even believe she’s supposed to have any implied romantic feelings/crush towards Nancy herself. They have an acquaintances to best friends arc IMO, and a platonic bond is NOT lesser than romantic chemistry, so it’s still really satisfying for me that Ronance just becomes close friends and confidantes.

Having a strong female friendship is super important, especially when 1. Nancy had lost her childhood best friend Barbara and has been carrying the guilt of that for 4 seasons. Having her get close to and open up to Robin is a great development (it doesn’t have to be a romantic connection, although of course that’s still fun in fanon.)

2. Just because Robin is a lesbian, doesn’t mean she can’t/shouldn’t have platonic friendships with other girls. Having the difference between her platonic relationship with Nancy and her romantic feelings for Vickie is a good move. WLW, lesbians especially, are often shied away from close friendships with straight women because they’re scared to be perceived as creepy or other harmful stereotypes (see Robin’s lines about how if she asks out the wrong girl she’s a town pariah etc etc.) So having a healthy friendship with Nancy where she doesn’t have to be afraid of that is also good representation, bc she couldn’t really do that with her crushes (Tammy and Vickie) without worrying about her sexuality being a problem.

Meanwhile I enjoy romantic Rockie for the potential of what it could be, with the hope/expectation that they’ll have more scenes and development in season 5! Part of it is like “I’m gonna be here supporting them BEFORE s5 makes them a popular ship and it’s suddenly cool to like them” which I’m aware isn’t the best reason but if you’re enough of a hipster, you too can succeed at shipping like this!

But also I think what we did get out of s4 was enough of an introduction that we can see Vickie is a sweet, cute, funny and unique person. We have to trust that Robin knows her better than we do at this point, because they at least spend time in band together if not outside of school, and she describes her as her “dream girl” (super adorable.) Robin also appreciates Nancy’s qualities, but that doesn’t mean she’s in love with her—Robin knows what she herself is interested in romantically which is a quirky girl like Vickie!

Vickie not just laughs at the muppet joke but adds onto it comparing Tammy’s voice to Kermit; she returns a movie to the video store paused on a boobies scene and later says she should have broken up with her bf as soon as he trashed Fast Times for having no plot, like the AUDACITY; and her rambling does show that she has a trait in common with Robin but it’s also to show reciprocity of feelings, being nervous around her crush. But then she goes on to being sassy and silly (FLIRTY) plopping a sandwich in front of her and saying “It’s a gift. You’re welcome.” (R: “Oh you really shouldn’t have”) “Oh, but I did!!”

So you don’t have to like Rockie better than Ronance just because it’s closer to being canon, you can just prefer whichever dynamic you like better!! And the draw towards Ronance is understandable with what we have in s4 so far…

But for me the fact that Rockie are such implied endgame material makes me sure that they’ll have more about them to love in s5 with beautiful sapphic love scenes incoming…while Nancy is going to have to finish having her “love triangle” between Jonathan and Steve. (Nancy being bisexual is a good headcanon, love Ronance for fanon, but canonically speaking, her 2 love interests are men and the writers have already spoken on how they’re going to have to complete that plot next season. Meanwhile Robin canonically has feelings for Vickie who is implied to reciprocate and they’re probably going to kiss and be adorable together so I’m HERE for them. We also don’t know if Ronance are even going to spend a lot of time together in s5 or if they’ve already completed their arc of becoming friends and will be in separate groups next time, but we know for sure that they’ll have to develop Rockie sooo)

That’s my take!

Mutuals please help me like Rovickie/Rockie better than Ronance!!!

I get that I'm supposed to, so please help 😭

[wontbyers]

It’s weird (unsettling??) for me to see people who support every gay ship except for Byler, because it’s like...atp it’s obvious to everyone except the most hetero-normative/homophobic general audience members that Will and Mike actually have a chance at being canon (like to the point where we can reasonably say they’ve been queer-baiting us by entertaining & promoting the possibility, if it’s not actually canon next season), and none of the other gay ships on ST besides Robin/Vickie are in the same lane, like it or not.

I ship Elm*x, Ron*nce, Bycl*ir, Wheelcl*ir, too! St*ddie is fine. But none of those have a chance at being endgame, none of them have a canonically gay character with confirmed feelings for the other half in their ship. For example, yes Robin and Nancy might have had more time & development together in s4 than Robin and Vickie did, but they did not hint at them having mutual (or even one-sided) feelings for each other the way they clearly set up R*ckie. You can personally read/interpret that Robin has a potential crush on Nance (I obviously ship them too), but it’s nowhere near canon the way Robin’s directly stated crush on Vickie is, or Will’s love for Mike is.

And especially when I see people ship Steve with Billy and Eddie and then say they actively don’t want Byler to end up together in the show, it’s like....what are you actually here for? Just being able to ship conventionally attractive men of appropriate-ish enough age? (If you know what I’m implying.) Lmk. Cause it’s apparently not for the potentially real LGBT representation that will mean a lot to a lot of LGBT people, in a huge mainstream show where two of the MAIN characters are boys who would be portrayed as best friends to love. “I just think Will deserves so much better than Mike” Doesn’t matter!!! it will be GOOD for our community’s representation to get this win if they’re endgame, whether you think Mike is good enough for Will or not. (especially weird when they still ship Mike with other characters likeeee sooo, you believe Lucas doesn’t deserve as good a guy as Will does, or?? wym friend??)

And guess what? You don’t have to write fanfiction, or draw art, or make gif sets, or come up with headcanons for them or actually ship them, but you should absolutely support and hope for them to be canon along with us, because there is no other possible endgame in the show at this point besides Will falling into the unrequited sad gay boy in love with his straight friend trope (they’re not introducing another love interest for him in s5.) And even if they try to show that he just “gets over it” or something, you know it’s not gonna feel right.

Like honestly, it feels so over-dramatic to say this, but at this point I don’t trust people who don’t support Byler endgame, whether they’re LGBT+ themselves or not. Because their priorities are weird and it puts a bad feeling in my stomach. Even if you don’t love the ship as a ship, you fucking KNOW what it represents and what a big chance this is, and you should stand by us. When I say, there are M*leven shippers out there who admit they’ll be sad if/when their ship isn’t endgame but they do hope for our sake that Byler is, because we’ll have obviously been queerbaited otherwise. I respect these people more than those who openly ship every single gay ship in ST besides Byler.

Anyway....

[terraether]

for the last 6 years ever since the legend of korra series finale aired in which Bryke chastised the audience for watching the show thru “hetero lenses” I have exclusively lived my life and consumed media thru HOMO lenses (has nothing to do with the fact I am gay and enjoy queer media analysis 👀). So, here’s a ranking of the st4 characters according to how difficult it was for me to analyze them thru these “hetero lenses”:

1. Max & Lucas - not at all difficult

These two are the easiest for me to read as not gay. Obviously being in a m/f relationship does not negate queerness altogether but for the sake of mainstream media as big as stranger things, it all but does. I -1/10 relate to them which is how I know, they are hetero, and it takes no effort for me to believe it. I used to read max as queer I guess due to her tomboy attitude but after seeing her in Taylor swift atw video I cannot unsee her as straight idk why this is just my brain

2. Dustin - not at all difficult

Dustin is a straight boy. He could possibly be hc as ace or demi if I think about it, but it takes more effort for me to think about a queer hc than accepting him as straight which is why he ranks this high up. I love 1 (one) straight boy

3. Jonathan - not very difficult

Jargyle is awesome and I love it. But also jonathan has the energy of the difficult alt guy that lands the popular girl and he just is never quite the same without her. They’ll part ways maybe for a while, but in the end he never searched for another love. They find their way back to each other and marry. He says, “I’ve only ever been with you.” It’s said as romantic, it reads a little creepy. She blushes. The end. So yeah outside of his alt boy “I don’t fit in” personality and his possible stoner make out sessions with his 1 true bro argyle it is not hard to see the hetero.

4. Joyce & Hopper - somewhat difficult

I ship jopper so hard BUT! Winona Ryder gives off so much queer lesbian energy that it does take me some time to push aside my gay lenses to accept that Joyce loves men (especially after s1 Joyce’s hair and outfit…). But they are, in the end, believably straight and the gays support them!!

5. Jane / El - pretty difficult

The early seasons she read so queer, I related to her so much. She didn’t understand gender norms and she didn’t look conventionally feminine and she just rocked all these cool outfits and looks and it was a vibe. However, by s4 it is clear to me she is a typical cis teen girl. The only reason she ranks #5 is bc it is pretty difficult for me to believe she is straight. I very strongly hc her as pansexual, she just seems like she has a lot of love to give and that gender would not be a barrier for her feelings (tho society would.)

6. Nancy - pretty difficult

I saw the excitement over ronance on this site after the trailers but I did not get it, Nancy is Straight TM and there was no proof they’d even get along let alone be gfs but Um, these scenes from s4 are making it harder for me to blindly look thru hetero lenses. She’s giving bi energy and it’d be so cute to see her flirt with Robin and be all bashful about it.

7. Steve - difficult

I have read steve as bi since s2? I think? And then when he accepted Robin after she came out I thought hm it’s the perfect opportunity for steve to explore his own sexuality! And s4 just strengthens my beliefs. He can’t get a gf?? Well to me that’s clearly bc he is discovering his interest in men and a gf just isn’t what he wants rn. However, I recently realized that steve has probably become the duffer’s self insert character so I am able to read him as straight and see thru the hetero lenses that his gf troubles probably root in I guess lingering feelings for *cringe* nancy 😩

8. Mike - very difficult

Mike is in the same boat as steve in my eyes. His actions just read gaygaygay panic to me. His interactions with will seem to give a hope to will that could only mean “omg my best friend also has a gay crush on me!!” However because this is a huge heteronormative show I am reluctantly able to see thru the hetero lenses that mike is probably just an idiot boy who is struggling with ~feelings~ and communication with his long distance gf, as well as just missing the closeness of his lifelong best friend. (But then I remember the scenes again and I’m like wait??? No way, it’s gotta all be gay!!)

9. Eddie - very difficult

Eddie to me is a gay man. I am able to put on the hetero lenses since he’s like a super popular handsome male character in this huge show in our wonderfully heteronormative world, which they certainly designed to appeal to the straight female audience (I think?? LOL) but ultimately I do not know enough about him yet to readily conclude that the writers have even made any conclusions about him. Because of this, it’s hard for me to believe he’s straight since it looks likely that he’ll die before any romantic storyline with him is addressed at all. He’s ~~ambiguous~~

10. Will & Robin - impossible

Soooo Robin is canon lesbian and therefore IMPOSSIBLE to see thru hetero lenses !!! Will is also pretty much canon gay man (I say pretty much because he is written and coded with gay storylines but he himself is only now arriving to conclusions about himself so it can only be canon in words once he is able to speak it. However this does not negate the canon fact that he is a gay character and has been this whole time even before he knew it. That’s just how life is for gay ppl sometimes). Will is impossible for me to view through hetero lenses and idk WHAT I’d do if they somehow pulled a reverse bryke, made will hold hands with a girl and then post series finale chastised us all for watched with our “homo lenses” (LOL COULD YOU IMAGINE?!?)

Bonus: Argyle - file not found

He just has that energy of creed from the office telling how he’d get so fucked up in the 70s on drugs that if gay shit happened then gay shit happened and I think that’s beautiful

[beepboop358]

"S4 Sneak Peek" Teaser - SECOND PART

This is my second post about the st4 sneak peek teaser, regarding the second half of the st4 sneak peek teaser, which contains the new images for s4.

(the first part of this s4 sneak peek discussion regarding the first half of the teaser can be found here.)

The California group; Will, Mike, Argyle, Jonathan (and El for part of the season), are not shown in the s4 footage, neither is Joyce, who we also know is in California for at least part of the season. There are several possible reasons why they aren’t included, one being that they are waiting to release any content surrounding Joyce and Will’s storyline until both of their individual teasers are released, or that their storyline contains major spoilers too sensitive to reveal at this time.

Now getting into the images…

The Grandfather Clock:

It is striking midnight, which could be a reference to the doomsday clock, or just time running out until something catastrophic happens.

This clock has been seen several times in promos:

My running theory is the clocks represent memories, which will be re-visited through the powers of the upside down/the void, essentially “time travel flashbacks". If you want to read more about this theory it's in my post here. I think the grandfather clock being positioned in the upside down, further supports this theory.

A clock was also seen in the "Eleven are you listening?" teaser, striking 3 a.m., aka "the witching hour".

Eleven in s4:

In the first image, Eleven looks like Joyce. She has the same hairstyle with the bangs. Whether she is mimicking Joyce after getting closer and more attached to her, or Joyce gave her this haircut, she undeniably looks like Joyce. She is wearing Hopper's flannel, but her clothing style also looks similar to Joyce's, just like her hair.

Eleven has obviously been kidnapped by the “bad men”, probably government agents for Hawkins Lab. From her facial expression and lack of movement, she isn't struggling or trying to get away from their grip on her, and that the black van behind her has its doors open and she is facing away from it, which means they probably just took her out of the van. Her facial expression indicates she is looking at something, full of disbelief and confusion. The tan ground and blue sky tell us this is obviously California. It was confirmed by leaked set pics of Joyce and Jonathan's cars license plates that the Byers move to Cali. I have a theory Dr. Owens/the gov. paid to re-locate the Byers to keep a low profile for Eleven, or at least gave them some money to use to re-locate to a place far away from Hawkins, because Joyce can not afford the kind of house they are living in there in Cali by herself with the kind of job she previously worked.

The second image of Eleven in the lab could be a memory/"time travel flashback", or it may not even be El, it could be another test subject that just looks like her, since they all did have shaved heads, but I feel like the person has very similar facial features to Millie, so it is probably Eleven.

The Hawkins group:

We have Nancy, Steve, Robin, Max, Lucas, Dustin and Erica left in Hawkins to investigate what is going on there. They are in the Claremont house, rumored to be "Vecna's lair" (the rumored new monster in s4)

The group appears to be looking at the grandfather clock, but we don't know for sure.

Usually all the couples are visually paired together in shots (which is especially prominent in s3) but here in this shot Max and Lucas are not standing next to each other, and in the bike riding shot they aren’t riding next to each other either. Max and Lucas are always breaking up and then getting back together in s3, so I wonder if them not standing together and not riding next to each other indicates a more permanent break up between the two.

Max is also at the center of the formation, and everyone stands around and behind her. I have a theory Max will be more central to the plot this year in discovering whats going on in Hawkins. Steve also appears to be looking directly at Max, as if he is reacting to or going to respond to what she is saying or has been saying.

Max, Dustin, Lucas and Erica riding their bikes could be them running away from something, rushing to get somewhere to deliver news/show up to something that's about to happen, etc, we really don't know.

The Dice:

The number 7 can be seen as one of the prominent numbers in the middle of a dice roll during a D&D game with the hellfire club. The number 7 is associated with Will and Mike, but also could allude to the "Eleven are you listening?" teaser where a puck was dropped on the number 7. 3 and 5 are also prominent numbers here.

I think the hands with the ring is Eddie or another new character. Neither Mike or Dustin's hands look like that. The person sitting next to him could be anyone. This person is seen wearing a hellfire club shirt, and we have seen everyone we know to be confirmed members of the club - Eddie, Mike, Dustin, wear this shirt in bts pics.

Hopper:

This shot is most likely of Hopper in the Russian prison, using a flame thrower as a weapon for his escape, or to defend himself from someone/something.

The car on fire:

If you slow the teaser down to 0.25x speed, you can see the mysterious figure is walking towards the flaming car, approaching it. This means this person was most likely not in the wreck. Although it would make sense for it to be Joyce's car because she drives a Ford Pinto which was an extremely flammable car due to design flaws Ford neglected, the back of the Ford Pinto is rounded, and this car does not seem to have a rounded back. During the scene in the woods in s3 after Joyce and Hopper kidnapped Alexei and Hopper's car won't start, it blows up. Joyce makes comments about how she could have died in the car explosion, which could be possible foreshadowing.

The mysterious figure appears to be a man, I'm guessing a young adult/teenager based on the stripes on the sleeve of their shirt - it just feels like something a teenager would wear, not a middle aged adult. My bet is that this figure is either Will, Jonathan, or maybe Mike - just based off of the body shape of the figure and that they would fit the age group.

The one thing we know for sure from this picture is that the car explosion happens in Hawkins. The skinny, tall trees that can be seen on the side of the road, only grow in certain places, mainly in the southeast of the US, and the Hawkins portion of ST is filmed in Atlanta, GA where these trees grow. These kinds of trees can’t grow in New Mexico where the California portion is being filmed, and definitely not in Lithuania, where the Russia portion is being filmed. In the show these trees only appear in Hawkins, Indiana. These trees are seen during Hopper's letter - when the Byers drive past the "Leaving Hawkins" sign. The slight curve in the road right where the skinny trees can be seen is very suspiciously similar.

Chrissy:

Described as the most popular girl in school hiding a dark secret, Chrissy's death/disappearance will probably be what sparks the suspicion, action, mystery, of the Hawkins storyline. It will be the event that triggers the Hawkins group to investigate what's really going on, and if the upside down is back again in Hawkins.

Steve under water:

He seems to be looking for something, it's unclear what, why, or exactly when in the season this scene will occur. Water has an underlying significance in the show, and last year the stranger writers account kept tweeting reminding everyone to drink water, and tweeted that Steve wasn't drinking enough water. There's definitely something going on here with the water references. That tweet about Steve not drinking enough water could allude to his possible death/serious injury. Steve is a popular contender to die this season, but I wonder if/when Steve dies, Dustin will also die because of the comment he makes in s3 to Steve saying, "If you die, I die."

[kaypeace21]

Rebel Robin podcast (ep 3 &4 analysis)

For those who haven’t read them yet. Here’s the analysis for podcast ep 1&2. Analysis of Rebel Robin book-here. And eastereggs from rebel robin novel- here.

So the main things I noticed in ep 3 was how Robin spying was shown as a huge NEGATIVE-and Mr Hauser got upset over her doing so. Robin listens to mr. Hauser’s phone call (like Karen with Mike in s3/ us gov spying on calls in s1) & on a different occasion Robin also eavesdrops on a private convo he is having with someone else in his classroom ( like El spying on Mike talking to Lucas in s3). And when he finds out about this he tells her how wrong it was to spy on other people like that. In the past, I also talked about how the theme of spying is shown for many other st characters ( in the show) and how it  isn’t romanticized like people think it is- here .

Anyways , Ep 3 ends with a call from a h*mophobic teen( Dash) telling Robin to “stay away” from Mr. Hauser cause he’s “dangerous”. Why he thinks he’s dangerous is solely for the fact he’s gay.I think this theme may come into play in s4 Hawkins (in relation to the satanic panic). In ep 4 Robin jokes to (gay) Mr. Hauser  : “ So what are you into... satanism?” (Sadly most queer people have been told over and over we’re going to hell for being gay/lgbt+. it’s sadly an almost universal experience.) For those unaware- the ‘satanic panic’ was a right wing christian movement in the 80′s that WRONGLY associated certain things with supposed satanism.  Just some of the many things they demonized : rock music , stephen king , wearing black,  horror/fantasy media, and of course queer people and d&d (hellfire club - the name is a a xmen ref but in the show it’s probably an inside joke about the satanic panic and people being scared of d&d). We see foreshadowing of the satanic panic hinted in s3 (in relation to d&d)- on tv the narrator asks if “satanism” (pans to d&d set) is to blame for the odd occurrances in Hawkins. And given how the s4 el-trailer had the clock say 3:00am for the “witching hour” also called “the devil’s hour” since it’s supposed to be a subversion of jesus dy*ing at 3:00 pm. And the possibility s4 may take place around Easter.  I think we’ll see that religious (Christian) extre*sm  causes many people in Hawkins to interpret the supernatural as ‘satanic’. And no , I’m obviously not talking poorly about all religious/christian people).

After this Mr. Hauser jokes how Hawkins is like “lord of the flies” and how he “worries” what would happen if teens were left to their own devices-like in the book. The themes in the book mostly focus on the dangers of ‘mob mentality’ and how human beings can become v*olent and turn on each other- if the safety of civilization disappears...

This I believe is foreshadowing - i mentioned in a post a while back (here). How movies on the s4 list had the theme of :  a supernatural event indirectly causing towns people to act irrationally and turn on eachother v*olently. Despite literal monsters attacking them from outside (they chose to turn on eachother instead). In the end some townspeople become the real monsters via mob mentality/v*oence/false witch hunts (the mist, the birds, etc). In ‘the birds’ (while people are hidding in a store)- they wrongly  blame certain characters for the supernatural chaos. Similarly, in ‘the mist’ (crowd of townspeople are trapped in a store) and some  start interpreting the monsters as being sent as punishment by god- some town’s people start quoting the bible and saying the only way to stop the punishment is to start “sacrificing the s*nners and nonbelievers”. BIG YIKES.ST references mapple street (where the wheelers and sinclairs live). It’s based on the twilight zone ep of the same name “The Monsters Are Due on Maple Street” .The ‘monsters’ of that episode -were the townspeople turning on eachother because they incorrectly think their own neighbors are part of an invading supernatural army. The enemy was actually the paranoia/mob mentality-not the supernatural force they feared.  And yes i do think this concept is linked with 80s satanic panic and will cause some town division/obstacles for our heroes to deal with . **I also think the s4 bts of the Hawkins blood clinic-may be used to show h*mophobia (linked to satanic panic) in the town. Like in one s4 movie “paradise lost”the punk rock boys who were into black clothes, rock music , horror/stephen king books- were accused by the town’s people of being gay AND have demonic powers that are k*lling fellow town’s people.

Mr Hauser says he thinks steve Harrington is Ralph from lord of the flies. And Robin disagrees saying he’s Jack. Personally- since this was when Robin didn’t know/hated Steve. I think Mr hauser is right that Steve is Ralph (one of the oldest boys) who’s “commitment to civilization and morality is strong”. But Jack  (perhaps the popular s4 kid Jake?) and his savage crew take control of the group and start trying to attack Ralph and his friends (steve’s crew- over satanic panic?). How this begins is -

 Jack, torments Ralph and others. And some kids begin to develop savage personalities, after someone claims to have seen a Beast (demongorgan?) in the woods. This creates fear among the boys, which allows Jack to access more power.Ralph gets into an argument with Jack, who splits from the tribe. Many of the other boys follow Jack, who uses fear to manipulate the boys into leaving Ralph. And Jack’s crew begin attacking Ralph and his friends.

----------------

Ok, next topic of ep 4- the sentimental part of my brain got emotional when hearing how upset Robin was. And than Mr Hauser-telling her she’s wrong and she’s not “broken” or “rotten” and “nothing about her needs to be fixed’” (got me right in the feels) . As a queer person- I feel like every lgbt+ kid/teen needs to hear what Mr. Hauser said to Robin. 

However,  the analytical part of my brain -did notice some easterggs/ series parallels.

The convo starts with them talking about music Mr hauser likes (such as Bowie). And transitions to Mr Haauser asking about things she likes, whether she’s being bullied, and he later tells her “ DON’T let other people’s small mindedness make you fell bad about yourself. you don’t need to change yourself-no matter what anyone else says” . And Mr Hauser than says him calling her the “weirdest girl in Hawkins” was a compliment (not an insult-like she initially assumed). 

This is remarkably similar to certain scenes in s1/2. In s1, Jonathan mentions musicians he likes such as Bowie, asks Will about what he likes,  and tells Will “don't like things cause people tell you you’re supposed to-especially not him (their dad who called him h*mophobic names)” . In s2, Jonathan tries to cheer Will up after asking if he's being being bullied. And calls Will  “a freak” (and says it’s a good thing) and he should be content with being a “freak “ and compares Will to Bowie ( who was openly queer since the 70s) . 

In ep 4, Robin also mentions how sad she is that her parents won’t let her ride her bike anymore cause their paranoid about her safety  (like what happened to Will in s2).

Robin (before Mr. Hauser comforts her) says she feels like she has a “rot” inside her  . This is a s2 eastergg that could be linked to either Will or El. Will says his now-memories are “growing”, spreading”, and killing.” Later Kali says the emotional pain caused by her father  caused a “wound” to “spread”. Later allusion-Brenner tells El she has a “terrible wound “ (“a rot”) that Will “grow, spread, and kill.”

The reason Robin rants about feeling like she has a “rot” inside her is because she’s being bullied, and  lost all her Hawkins friends and says  “maybe I’m broken maybe there is just something about me that drives people away? I’m the only common denominator-there’s something wrong with me! There’s something inside of me that’s just rotten and there’s nothing i can do to fix it”. Which 1)-poor Robin. 2) I feel like could easily be How Will feels in s4(who will be the same age as Robin is here in the podcast)- his dad abandoned him, all his hawkins friends are gone , the st s4 movies have h*mophobic bullying in them (and he was bullied in the past). In a interview Noah said Will in s4 “doesn’t really get along with people-it’s just him and Mike.”  I think it fits more so with Will than El . But they may feel similar:  it’s implied in s4 audition tapes she’ll be bullied too,  she moved away from her friends,  and her father (Hopper) fake “passed away.” It could easily be how both Will and El feel in s4- that there is  something “broken”/ “rotten” about them . In fact, in the rebel Robin novel there is even a character named Sheena. Sheena reminds me a bit of a mix between Will and el . She is very quiet, queercoded, and is often bullied. And she finds mean notes and other things stuffed  in her locker- placed there by bullies. A bit like how Will found the zombie-boy note in his locker. A teacher doesn’t stop her bullying just blames her and says “ This wouldn’t happen if you made it just a smidgen easier for PEOPLE to understand you.”(sort of reminding me of that Noah quote about s4 Will not getting along with most people/Jonathan saying not to change himself cause “people” say to). But sheena can be another name for Jane (there was also a 80s show character named Sheena who was psychic) so ...maybe foreshadowing of el/jane being bullied in highschool? Along with Will?

*It’s not a eastergg/parallel...just speculation. Unlike the rebel robin book... in the podcast (in multiple episodes) almost every time she opens up to Mr Hauser about her problems she says it’s ok for him to do the same and she’ll be supportive and listen. However, Mr Hauser (so far) always rejects her offer-much to her hurt/frustration. In ep 4, she asks if he has someone his “own age” he can talk to about his problems-which he says he does. Now... since in ep 4 Mr hauser is paralleled to Jonathan maybe Jonathan will have someone his own age to talk to about his problems (maybe his new friend Argyle?) We see similar to Mr Hauser giving advice/pep talks to (gay) Robin. Jonathan is always giving advice/peptalks to our (gay-coded) Will. But so far- Jonathan has no one he really emotionally leaned on in the same way (Will does with Jonathan). I also wonder if Will in s4 starts gets tired of how he always confides in Jonathan (but Jonathan never does the same with Will  in return)? Like Robin with Mr. Hauser?

[woodface]

Leena deserved better

So we’ve made our way halfway through s4 of Warehouse 13 and I have so much feelings and a whole lot of salt. I love this show and its found family, but oh boy, do I also have issues and most of it revolve on how Leena gets treated. 

I love Leena a lot. Despite how... well for 3 whole seasons this show does not know what to do with Leena. It’s so painful to watch. They threw in a character who was all heart and could see a little too much. Her aura reading made her rather mysterious and a little mystical, and she obviously is very empathic to all the other characters around her. She’s able to sense artifacts and the strange energies they resonate... and unlike with Pete’s vibes or Steve’s ability to know when someone is lying, the writers did not know what to do with that or did not really want to bother trying to write around it.

So they kept Leena in the background. Sometimes there to lend an ear, to do the jobs others were too busy to do, but in general, Leena was shoved towards the background.

It took them until S4 before they let Leena venture away from the B&B and the warehouse, and god, that moment is so good that it’s painful. We get a glimpse of who Leena is, of how she can read these artefacts and keeps them in balance. Her reactions are so amazing and it just makes it all that more painful that we never got more of any of this. Even when the show was focussing on Leena with the pearl of wisdow, Leena had to carry that burden on her own. She didn’t get to confide in anyone else, she didn’t get the team around to support her. (Not on screen anyway, but let me headcanon it.)

In comes S4 where Leena is suddenly thrust forward in an attempt to build up the character they neglected for 3 whole seasons so... well her death would have a bigger impact on their story. It’s rather telling that we come to understand her true impact on the warehouse, that we come to see what she did, after she’s gone. Through the eyes of Artie so we could understand his guilt and his grief. While all the other characters around are more focussed on Artie. There is no pause in the show for them to remember her by, to show how much she is missed.

The grief over Leena is shown solely through the eyes of Artie. Leena’s death is the greater evil Artie has to live with as payment for using an artefact to change the world. It’s so gross and so disappointing, and it doesn’t work. At all. 

What strikes me as odd is how this death closely follows everything happening with Steve. The writers set up a big storyline here. Steve dies for them, to save them. Steve sacrifices himself, and Claudia is so eaten up by guilt that she does the wrong thing. She does exactly what Artie says they should never do. 

They bring Steve back and show us just how bad it is. Claudia ties herself to his fate, she binds them together and every hurt he feels, gets transferred to her. It’s an interesting storyline and the potential had me on the edge of my seat. Claudia has spent so much of her life trying to get her brother back. Only for him to walk away and leave her behind, and Claudia is left fumbling until she find her home with this little family. 

Only for history to repeat itself and Claudia once more being faced with potentially losing a brother, and putting her own life on the line to get him back instead of learning to cope with her grief. The parallels are so obvious and it’s obvious where this storyline was meant to lead. Steve realising the danger he poses to Claudia, convincing her that he had his time and he would not let anyone get hurt in his place. Steve taking himself off the metronome after being able to say goodbye to Claudia and allowing her to move on. 

It would have been beautiful, even if it would have been painful. Except, that’s not how it goes. There are no consequences to Claudia’s actions. They go back to Steve’s mother, have the weirdest kind of ceremony that felt not really cathartic and mostly confusing, but they do it. Easy as that. A moment of love, the metronome gets destroyed and Steve can live happily after.

Steve’s death would have had meaning. It would have resonated and he would have died protecting everyone. He would have been a hero, and he would have been a good brother keeping his found sister safe. Except, he lives. 

Steve being alive leaves a bad taste in the mouth when a few episodes later Leena gets killed. And it doesn’t resonate. Claudia’s angst is about Artie and while that is understandable, Claudia’s lack of grief for Leena isn’t. They got Steve back without any great negative consequences, but no one pauses to think about getting Leena back. No one mentions while they angst over having Artie use the astrolabe again and that it would kill HG, Steve and Mrs Frederic, it would ultimately mean saving Leena.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think using artefacts to bring the dead back is a particularly good idea, but the show just literally made it clear that in fact, it can be done and you can get a happy ending. For the while male character, at least. (And even for HG Wells as well.) The black woman? No, she isn’t worth it. Heck, no one even wants to stop and think about what it means that Pete actually saw her. That’s just the Warehouse, apparently. 

There’s so many ways they could have handled this better, even if she still ended up dead in the end. Heck, just the group sitting together in the B&B telling stories about Leena would have been something.

The closest we get is Artie showing us four seasons too lately exactly the type of work that Leena did. All the things, the show didn’t bother to include before as they shoved Leena’s character to the side. And it just makes the character’s death that much harder to swallow, because we never even got to see her shine. And in the same instant, we see Steve (the boy who lived) take the seat and do what she was good it in her place.

I realise I’m like 8 years too late with my indignation, but it still sucks, dammit. I’m still mad as hell because Leena was an awesome character and she deserved so much better than any of this bullshit.

And now I need like 500 fixit fics. I need the entire team dogpiling on Leena as she’s safe and sound with them again. I need Claudia clinging to her and showing her relief that she didn’t have to lose Leena too. I just... Rawr.

They couldn’t even bother to give her a frigging last name, goddammit.

[themikewheelers]

We're not in Hawkins anymore more means a new setting. Which means new people, which means new characters, ugh! Call me a downer but for sure the Duffers will add more characters and that sucks. They already have a lot of main characters and secondary characters. They can't even properly develop the ones they already have! It already feels bloated with so many storylines & so little episodes. Adding a new kids group bc will & El make new friends? A nightmare. Literally a nightmare.

Listen not to be rude but. Can we please go. One new season. Without everyone whining about new characters. There hasn’t been a single new character announced yet. I doubt there will be any new mains. Yeah ofc there’s gonna be new ppl in a new location, but there’s not gonna be a whole new group of main characters??? And maybe, just maybe, not all characters NEED to be developed, bc some characters are purely supporting characters who have no meaning themselves so complaining when small roles aren’t given a ton of screentime is completely missing the point of the character.

Again not to be rude but I’m TIRED. Yeah this show has a lot of characters and has added new ones each season........ just like practically every other show on the planet? We’ve got 12 main characters rn. Possibly 11 depending on Hop. Possibly 13 if u count Erica but honestly I don’t bc I don’t think she’s gonna have a big role going forward. Out of that 11-13, only 2/3 of them weren’t in s1. 2 more were in s1 but not as mains, and out of those two, Steve u could argue was basically already a main in s1 even if he wasn’t credited so, and of COURSE Will needed to be made a main.

Now out of those 2/3 new, are ppl still gonna complain? Robin is essentially one of the biggest fan favorites after only one season, and if u don’t think that matters, I understand, but her role in the plot was still huge and she’s definitely important in them developing Steve. And for Max, just, can u even imagine the show without Max at this point? It’s crazy to think there was a time when the party was only five. Ppl have been calling her unnecessary since the day they announced her character, and personally I thought we were past this. Erica is the only one of the new mains that I can accept some criticism that she was unnecessary, bc she did kinda stop having a direct role after she opened the elevator door, but still, she was a character that a lot of ppl loved, introducing someone from Lucas’s family was important imo, and also, she’s just one character. She didn’t get a lot of screentime at all, so I’m not gonna accept any claims that her inclusion somehow took away screentime from anyone else.

We’ve got plenty of other characters, some even credited as main cast members, but main cast member =/= main character. Would u call Karen a main character? Billy? Probably not. Going into s4 I think they already have a good balance. It’s likely Erica’s role will be demoted, I’m also expecting Murray’s role to be bumped up, bc doing so would be a big key to the plot. Same with Brenner, but while he’s likely to be a main cast member, once again that’s not the same thing as a main character. There’ll likely be a slew of new supporting characters, as every show does, bc new storylines rely on it, and we might get one or two new mains, but no, we will not be getting a group of new main characters. There will be no “nightmare” where a group of new kids is introduced as Will’s new friends to be new major characters. Well have the same characters as always. Well have our 6 kids. Well have our teens. Well have Joyce, and hopefully Hopper. And personally I think the show has done a rlly good job balancing its characters. There’s definitely flaws at some points, but imo its flaws have not at all come from having too many characters to balance. And to an extent, it’s normal and a good thing for a show to not balance its characters perfectly. Some main characters are simply gonna have bigger roles than others. I love characters like Lucas and Dustin to the ends of the earth, but lbr, would it rlly make sense if they were given as much screentime and development as characters like El or Will, who are the central figures to the show’s whole plot? So yeah, they don’t get as much screentime, but even with that they’ve been developed v well and imo given justice each season

Also, just a reminder bc nothing gets under my skin as much as this, stop. complaining. about. things. before. you. watch. them. Every damn season ppl have been getting bent out of shape about every little thing only to actually watch the season and realize it’s not a big deal. I don’t know what new characters we’ll get or how they’ll be written, but can we at least wait until the season is out before complaining about its writing? thx

[flyingcatstiel]

1. Hello again, I am the same anon who sent both of your latest two anonasks. I think there was some confusion so I'll clarify. I don't even ship stony(I've only read handfuls of fics), I ship destiel and I like all mcu characters equally and I am not team cap nor iron but I am a bitter cas girl. There was NO intention to bring any wank or ships/characters bashing to your blog. I was just so angry with 'we are' and your answer to the first ask got me thinking about stony.

2. But my ask was poorly and inadequately worded to confuse you of the ulterior intention and I apologize. Though I shouldn’t have use the ship names when I meant their general relationship both in canon and fanon, what I meant was in regard to the same situation, which is their mother’s deaths, Tony actually drew blood and all Dean did was say some words,

3. so one might think that actual physical conflicts not induced by any supernatural event indicate bad relationship but I feel Dean and Cas’s friendship and general relationship more unhealthy and unbalanced.

4. Now I just decided for my self that that’s probably because Tony and Steve has different visions, families, groups of friends and support system so even if there is conflict between them, Tony still got Pepper Rhodey and Happy and Steve got Bucky Nat and Sam.

5. So no one is left alone in the world. But if Dean’s angry with Cas, Cas is alone in the universe. I meant unhealthy like that. Cas has no one except Winchester families and if that makes Cas desperate for sense of belong and makes him apologize like that, that imao is unhealthy. But all in all, I am sorry for the confusion. I shouldn’t have been so blunt and out of the blue. Post 1502 made me go blind with unreasonable fury.

6. On a different note it’s interesting how wording and context make differences between being perceived as wank baiting anon hate or anon thanks. And I hope that this message is accepted as the latter because I am always grateful of all your reasonable words about Spn and fandom fruits. :) thanks for reading.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Heey, sorry for total misunderstanding with the previous ask and thank you for coming back and clarifying it! And yes, I’m kinda jumpy lately, since couple of my spn critical posts were hijacked by destiel haters and also earned me the blocking from destiel positivity crowd. That’s the fandom we have and that is one huge reason why I’m slowly sauntering into MCU fandom. To be brutally honest, that’s my advice to all bitter Cas girls - get out before you get too frustrated and hurt. The show will continue Cas whump because they don’t know what else to do, and destiel metas will spend all their energy justifying it. Instead of, you know, just saying that bad writing is bad writing. You can always come and vent in my inbox or via DM tho, I’ll try to answer as much as I can, because I feel you. 

OK, very quickly about CW movie and Tony’s anger vs Dean’s anger. I don’t think Tony’s situation is comparable at all here. Tony learns about Bucky killing his parents on Hydra’s orders after a long chain of very intense conflicts. That was literally the last drop, there’s little time to process it, and it is the culmination of the movie. On the other side, Dean and Cas conflict is never the centerpiece of SPN, it’s all subtext and Dean’s POV. Dean blaming Cas for Mary’s accidental death comes absolutely out of nowhere. They all knew that Jack is using his soul to do stuff, they all knew Jack needs supervision. FFS, Jack just brought Sam back from dead by using his soul. And now Cas is to blame for it? Not to mention that Dean and Cas relationship is way more complicated than MCU stony. Even if we take out romantic destiel subtext out of it, textually, Cas still is the closest person to Dean after Sam. Dean has called Cas his family, his brother several times. Dean grieved Cas in s13. And now, suddenly, it all means nothing because Dean is angry? Unpopular opinion about SPN writers under the cut.

I said it already back then and I still stand by my words - Berens wrote the line “You are dead to me” deliberately to yank the fandom. There are plenty of other words he could have used if he simply wanted to show Dean’s grief and uncontrollable anger towards Cas. Instead, SPN focused on one thing that would hurt the most and then used it in the promo. I literally saw post on my dash saying that OP was not gonna watch the episode because SPN is just meh, but, after seeing that promo, OP wanted to know why Dean said something so hideous to Cas. Remember how fans hoped that it’s a misleading promo? Remember how fans hoped that Dean will apologize to Cas? There’s an understanding that that line was too much. And, after s14 finale, I saw posts talking about how this is not relevant anymore because surely Jack’s death and Chuck’s machinations override whatever anger Dean could have towards Cas for not telling him about snake. And then 15x01 brought us that passive aggressive scene and, well, 15x02 took the cake. 

So, while I totally agree with you that the scene between Dean and Cas was terrible, my way of dealing with it is to blame SPN writers. First of all, I don’t understand what Dean is talking about there. Nothing was real? Does he mean some kind of Matrix type of reality where the real Dean is sleeping in a pod? Otherwise, it was all real. Tell Kevin Tran that his death and time after death was not real. Tell it to Jo, Charlie, Eileen that their deaths were not real. Cas speech is nice, but, honestly, not a groundbreaking revelation. Whedon’s Angel said it wittier, Dumbledore and Gandalf said it more fitting for their stories. There’s a Jewish proverb with similar sentiment. Like, this is nothing new! Our choices matter, sometimes it is the only thing that matters. I mean, everyone who has lived under authoritarian regimes, everyone who’s a minority and has to deal with privileged majority, knows this. To make Dean to refuse it in s15, is honestly very baffling. 

Like, I see that SPN writers want to draw some parallels with s4 by flipping Dean and Cas beliefs, but, scene subversion works only if you know why the first scene worked in the first place. I think this scene would have worked better if Dean would be just venting his understandable frustration with the situation. But instead, we got Cas apologizing, Dean still blaming Cas for Mary’s death (seriously wtf?) and then Dean walking out on Cas and refusing Cas’ belief in their choices being real. 

And here I come to my last point. Dean saying that their choices were not real because Chuck manipulated everything sounds very much like privileged middle class white people suddenly realizing that they are not calling the shots and then throwing into a towel. This really looks like the most “profound” revelation Bucklemming could’ve come up with. They gave similar moronic lines to Cas in 9x03, when Cas, former angel who watched humanity for thousand of years, was surprised that poor people are kind and generous. 

So, to me it looks like SPN writers are trying to be deep but in the end they write what they know best - angry white man is always right trope and le omg, if I’m not the center of the universe then everything was not real story. Which sucks, tbh. And clashes with older seasons of SPN. But here we are. And, since the conflict between Dean and Cas is based on such a weak argument, there can’t be real resolution, catharsis and growth. The current conflict serves only one purpose - to keep Cas and Dean on bad terms and to make Cas leave (because Misha’s contract something something). My worst fear - this stupid conflict will set Cas on self destructive/sacrificial path, and that will be it. Because let’s be serious, destiel is not the most important thing in s15. It’s just not.