#they would make it clear that mike and el love each other and that’s that

[chirpsythismorning]

Milkvans complaining about bylers not mentioning Finn’s response about about the monologue is so funny, as if it didn’t support byler endgame even more 🤣

Finn saying I think he knows she thinks all this, bc I think there’s a reason why he says it, is because she— she— he’s been waiting to say it for a long time and she’s been waiting for him to say it for a long time. I think it’s an interesting thought, having that reciprocated. Yeah I think so. I don’t… I don’t know. I would hope… idk… great question and thought tho…

Like he literally cuts himself off before implying that Mike knows how El feels and that she wanted him to say I love you for a while, which is the very reason why he said it in the first place, despite seasons of attempting to say it, stalling repeatedly, only to fail each time up until now when there was literally no option not to in his eyes…

How is that a milkvan win?…

Not only that, but he didn’t make it sound hopeful for their future either. It’s still up in the air according to him. He makes a point of just saying interesting question over and over, only to not actually come up with an answer…

The assumption for many viewers, specifically milkvans, is that everything is great for Mike and El right now bc the monologue fixed everything. If that’s the case why does Finn end that question on a sort of question mark with it still up in the air? Least of all when you’re dealing with a queer ship on the other end, with him making much more of an effort to imply that it will be addressed. It’ll pay off vs. idk?…

This is like the casts reaction to the monologue all over again. The interviewer asked about Mike and El’s future and Finn basically danced around it saying he’s looking forward to all of their endings and is mostly interested to know if Mike will stay in Hawkins, adding at the end that he hopes Mike and El you know, find… happiness.

He’s always giving answers that work both ways. Byler endgame still fits in with whatever he says, whether milkvans want to acknowledge that or not.

Otherwise there would be no reason for him to try so hard to be ambiguous about Mike and El’s feelings, as if it’s this big spoiler… unless what’s about to go down is something most the audience won’t expect…

[gardenfairie]

This question asked by a mileven to finn wolfhard might've been one of the best proofs bylers got today lmao.

There is so much to unpack here.

"What makes miIeven so strong?" — Finn didn't address this at all. Is their "love" really so strong if he can't easily speak on it? lol. Caleb was going on about how unconditional and forever lumax's love was today. Those were the words he used. And Noah went on and on about byler's bond at his last panel in 2024.

Instead of answering how their love is so strong, Finn starts talking about how romance was the last thing on Mike's mind when he met El. This easily kills the 'love at first sight' from the monologue, which is hilarious because the questioner is asking "how does Mike's monologue impact them after season 4". So not only did he ignore the question, but he also contradicts the monologue that the questioner wants to hear more about, not once, but THREE TIMES 😭😭😭

"I dont think romance was on his mind even when he initially found eleven" "didn't perceive himself to be in any romantic relationship" "that wasn't even on his mind"

Next he's comparing el to ET: the least romantic dynamic ever. ET is an alien that a boy named elliot takes care of. So apparently that's how Mike initially saw El— like a pet he had to take care of. (This is not news and has been said multiple times by the duffers and finn by the way). Oh and ET says goodbye and leaves at the end of the movie.

"relationship with a lot of people", "feelings towards someone" — Keeping it gender neutral I see :))

"first love", "that relationship is his first romantic feelings for someone" — Usually people signify the relationship being a first because it's not the LAST either *chuckles*. Interesting how finn doesn't say anything like "that relationship is his ONLY romantic feelings towards someone" if he wanted to emphasize how deeply in love they are like how the questioner so clearly wanted him to lol

"going into season 5", "still a couple going into it" — So he said not once but twice "going into..." He seems to want to make it really clear he's ONLY referring to the beginning of the season and nothing else, because it's literal common sense. mike and el ended off season 4 together, so yeah no fucking duh they're starting off season 5 together?? Like what lol.

"that's all I can say about 5" — So zero indication that Mileven are still together in the middle, or the end, or anywhere beyond the start of season 5.

Now what would be a better more pro-mileven response to this question? Probably something like this (I'm essentially taking stuff Noah and Caleb have said about byler and lumax and mashing them together):

The romantic relationship between Mike and El is a foundational element of stranger things. What makes them so strong and how does Mike’s confession impact them after season 4?

I think what makes Mike and El so strong is their unconditional love and connection with each other, just as what Mike's confession showed. I can't give spoilers about season 5, but I'm just excited for you guys to see it. Like I think all throughout the seasons, I have have so many great scenes with millie. I can't spoil anything but Mike and El's relationship has been so important all throughout, and you'll see what they will face in season 5.

[thebylertheory]

"If you think El doesn't need to end the show in a relationship and she can be happy without one, then that goes for Will too" here's why you're wrong.

The reason why it's different for Will, whether you like it or not, IS because of his sexuality. Homophobia and Will's belief that he'll never find romantic love because of him being gay is a core part of his character. Romantic love, or the lack thereof, has been an important part of his story for at least the past two seasons. He already has an abundance of love from his friends and family. He's not lacking on that part. But he wants romantic love. That is what he desires. They have made that clear. And they have gone out of their way to show us that he wants that with MIKE. And they have even taken it a step further and shown us why Mike and Will would be good together. They bring out the best in each other and they make one another feel good about themselves. So, for them to do all of that and then end the show by reaffirming Will's belief that he was right and he's never going to find love because he's gay is a very cruel and pointless ending for his character. He has suffered enough. He should be allowed to end the show with the boy he loves and believing that he's worthy of that type of love. He deserves to have the relationship he's always wanted and thought he would never have.

Romantic love has never been an important part of El's story. Since season 1, she has been trying to find a family/home and she has been trying to find out who she is in a world she was isolated from since birth. That is the most important part of her story and character. Her relationship with Mike has never been the main focus. In fact, she does better and she thrives more and she sees the most development as a person when her and Mike are separated. They have shown us that their relationship holds her back and that they're not good for each other. They don't make each other feel loved or good about themselves. Now, that's not to say I don't think El should EVER be in a relationship. She can! But a romantic relationship, especially one with Mike, is not as important to her story as it is to Will's. In fact, a relationship with Mike has done more bad than good for her. She doesn't NEED romantic love or a relationship with Mike for her happy ending. Her happy ending can consist of her just being able to live comfortably with her family and knowing who she is and feeling confident in her identity. That ending is what will be the most fulfilling for her character.

[imfinereallyy]

“Dad is going to be very angry,” El says with wide eyes taking in the scene before them.

“You think Hop will kill him?” Steve says as he leans against the doorway, eating a Twizzler.

El looks at Steve momentarily, sticking her hand out for some candy. Steve hands her one without hesitation. El rips a piece off before speaking. “Oh yes. He might ask you to help hide the body.”

Steve nods solemnly, “I’ll do what needs to be done. Mikes’s my least favorite child anyway.”

“Hey!” Mike yells, gaining the duo's attention. It brings them back to the scene they walked in on. Mike and Will, with the door closed (no three inches in sight) on top of each other, making out.

Steve doesn't think he’ll ever get that image out of his brain.

“Chill, Wheeler, I'm joking,” Steve says pointedly before turning to El and mouthing no, I'm not.

El giggles, and Steve can't help but feel like he won a prize at the sound.

“I'm sorry, El.” Will blushes with shame, like he is betraying his sister somehow.

El just shrugs, “I do not care. But Dad might. He hates Mike.”

Steve snorts, “That's the understatement of the century. I don't think Hop has ever hated someone’s partner like he has Mike. Honestly, I was surprised he liked Eddie. I mean like is a strong word. But he tolerates him.”

Will pipes up, “I think he does mostly because he knows you'll move out, and he only just got you to agree to stay here.”

Steve shrugs, “I’ll take what I can get. At least he doesn't walk on me having sex.”

“We weren't having sex!” Mike practically screams. Hands up exasperated. “And don't talk about you and Eddie; it's gross.”

Will blushes deeply with head in his hands, “Oh, God.” El pats him on the shoulder in sympathy.

“Also, this wouldn't have happened if you weren't an idiot and just knocked!” Mike stomps. Jesus, this kid is 15 acting 6.

“I was the one who walked in, Mike. I wanted to know if Will wanted to watch a movie.” El says coldly, getting defensive of her brother.

Mike clams up, Steve can't help but feel smug.

“Who’s having sex?!?” A distinct Hopper-like voice echoes through the house.

Will and Mike share a panicked look while Steve and El take more Twizzlers from the bag.

“Oh no. Mike! What are we going to do?”

Mike sputters, “He doesn't have to know it was us! And we weren't having sex!”

Will looks at him like Mike is the biggest moron he's ever met. Steve loves the kid (despite early protest) but has to agree. “Oh gee Mike, I wonder who he will think it was about. Steve? Who is dating a man who isn't here and keep in mind, it's Steve. Who is our brother, and five years older than us? And in a relationship? And let's not forget..is Steve?!”

“This is fair.” Steve agrees. If anyone but Baby Byers had attempted to say that, Steve would have been pissed. But it's Will, so it's coming from a good place.

“Also! Also! The other person here is El! Who is my sister! Not to mention your ex—”

“—well it could have been—”

“Micheal Steven Wheeler, if the next words out of your mouth are it could have been you and El, I will never be kissing you again.” Will uses a deathly tone. Steve isn't convinced he didn't get from El.

“Your middle name is Steven?” Steve fills giddy.

“Shut up Steve!”

Will pinches his brows, “And you idiot, if it were you and El, you would still he toast.”

Steve whistles, “Shit, Will. Next time I need to win an argument against Eddie. I'm coming to you.”

“How long does it take for dad to get upstairs?” El interrupts.

All of them look down the hall. “Huh, maybe we are in the clear,” Mike whispers.

“I said who is having sex?!?” Hopper comes thundering up the stairs.

“I think this is what Max calls a jinx.” El looks at Mike unphased.

Steve can't help but feel a little bad for Will. He looks panicked around the room, probably looking for a hiding place. Steve knows that it isn't that same fear Will once had of Lenny, Hop wouldn't hurt them ever, but he can't help but feel a little protective of him. Steve knows all too well how the fears of biological fathers can sneak up on you, even if you know you're safe. “Don’t worry, Will. I'll make sure Hop takes it easy.”

Will relaxes, “Thanks Steve.”

“What about me?” Mike asks, eyes wide.

El shares a look with Steve. Spending as much time as they have lately has allowed them to talk without speaking most of the time. It freaks everyone but Robin out (she gets it). Seconds go by before they both nod in agreement.

Steve and El both wip their heads towards Mike, and Steve says, “You were grossed out by my relationship and called me stupid. Suffer.”

Mike's outcry is in synch with Hop breaking through screaming, “There better be three inches!”

[willthewiz]

Jonathan Capturing the Right Moment

In this scene, Jonathan says he'd rather observe people than talk to them. And then says:

“People don’t really say what they're really thinking. When you capture the right moment, it says more.”

We'll get back to that later.

Here is Jonathan in season 4:

In the van scene, the camera only cuts to Jonathan when Will is telling a lie. Remember, Jonathan said people don't say what they're really thinking (the truth). But he captured the right moment, when it says more. Jonathan knows what Will is actually saying are his feelings not El's.

Will tells Mike that El told him what to draw. Then the camera cuts right to Jonathan. When he knows Will painted it and El didn't know what it was or who it was for.

Will: "I mean, without heart we'd all fall apart. Even El, especially El."

Then it cuts to Mike then Jonathan. Again, Jonathan knows this is about Will, not El. He's capturing these moments.

Will continues to lie and we once again, cut to Jonathan.

Here is more of Jonathan:

Mike: "But I am scared that one day you'll realize you don't need me anymore. And I thought that if I said how I felt it would somehow make that day hurt more."

We cut to Will and then Jonathan.

“People don’t really say what they're really thinking. When you capture the right moment, it says more.”

"But I am scared that one day you'll realize you don't need me anymore. And I thought that if I said how I felt it would somehow make that day hurt more."

Mike's fear & reason for not telling El he loves her:

What he thinks would happen:

Mike says I love you to El

One day, El realizes she doesn't need him anymore

That day hurts because she doesn't need him even though he loves her

El WANTED Mike to tell her that he loved her, but he didn't say it because he was afraid of losing her??

If Mike told El that he loved her, why would he still have doubts that she wouldn't need him??

Because Mike doesn't love her romantically and he's scared that if she knew, she wouldn't need him anymore. But that's just not true.

Jonathan is observing him in this scene. In previous scenes, Will is lying to Mike. Will isn't saying what he's really thinking (the truth to Mike). But Jonathan captures those specific moments, those lies. He sees through them and they become something more. The truth. Will is confessing his feelings for Mike through El.

In this scene, Mike is lying to El. Mike isn't saying what he's really thinking (the truth to El). But Jonathan captures this particular moment. This moment is when he sees through Mike's lies. He sees the truth. Mike is confessing his real feelings. He's saying that he isn't in love her and he's scared to lose her because of that. He's saying that the whole reason why he didn't tell her he loved her is because he's scared El wouldn't need him anymore.

Again, if Mike told El that he loved her, why would he think El wouldn't need him anymore? Why is he so scared that one day she'll come to this realization? Hm... I wonder...

Mike doesn't love El romantically, but he needs her. They will always need each other. And, I think, in season 5, Mike will realize that El will always need him and that they don't need to be in love with one another to stay with one another. Mike wouldn't lose her just because they're not together as a couple anymore.

--------------

Idk if any of this made sense or not. Not really sure about the whole Jonathan thing, but it is clear that he observes Will (and people in general) and knows he loves Mike. I just thought that what Jonathan said is interesting. Is this the shows way of saying that characters don't always mean what they say? Maybe...

I don't know anything about film, so don't take this seriously. I have no idea what I'm doing, I'm just bored and very sleep deprived.

Let me know what you think:)

[noihavenosanitythanksforasking]

thinking about how milevens tend to assume that bylers want mileven to break up just because we want byler to happen.

no love

wanting byler to be canon and wanting mileven to break up are two separate wants.

Mike and El have their own story outside of will. Even if Mike wasn't queer and Will wasnt around this story would still be their story. Will may be a character in their story but the story is still about mike and el. Mike and Els story line is the marriage of the two of their two individual character arcs.

El's story arc is based around the fact that she was abused as a child and was dehumanized to an extreme level that no child should ever experience. She does not have an identity of her own. She wasn't raised to even expect to have one in the first place. Her story is learning to be able to her own person. To just be herself and learning who that person is.

When she met mike she created an identity around him. and identity of being the super powered mage who saved the day. that was El. then she became mikes gf and suddenly she was now "mikes gf". It wasnt until she met max that someone actually tells her that she is allowed to be her own person. "theres more to life than stupid boys" "what feels right" before Max she was just existing trying to play a role of what she was supposed to be rather than figuring out who she was or who she wanted to be. What she wanted. El is not raised to have wants. El was raised to be a weapon, a lab rat, a tool that does what they are told.

When this story intersects with a story arc like Mike has you get the disaster that is Mileven.

Mikes story arc is actually very similar. Mike is a very codependent person. He wants to feel needed. he wants to feel useful. If he doesnt have a use to someone he thinks he must be a waste of space. Mike doesnt know who he is outside of other people. He has never explored what he wants for himself. He is for other people. As a codependent person myself i can relate to this a lot. It can be hard to know what YOU want for yourself, outside of people you care about. Mike puts his loved ones before himself so much to the fact that it tends to get him into trouble more often than not. The issue with being codependent is that you become almost blind to who YOU are and what YOU need. you suppress your emotions for other people and these emotions only tend to surface when you realize that holy shit. i cant do anything here. This is the situation mike is finding himself in during season 4 and continuing into season 5. there is nothing he can do anymore. it is clear that him putting el above his own feelings and giving her what she wants in his attempt to help is not working. In fact its HURTING his relationship with el. Now mike doesnt know what to do. so he's drifting. El was his trauma partner. when things get too hard and too confusing he retreats into "el mode" where his only thought is what El needs. This is not a healthy mindset AT ALL. no matter how much the media romanticizes that sort of thing. IT IS NOT HEALTHY. you cant live like that. but now El has communicated "i dont want that. stop lying and get your shit together".

so mike is stuck. and el is stuck.

because theirs is a coming of age story. however not all coming of age stories are romantic. Mike and El cannot communicate with each other. they are both selfishly selfless in the way they treat each other.

I am going to be who you want me to be because i think thats what you want and it makes me feel secure.

this is not something you want in a relationship. a relationship is based on trust and vulnerability. being able to be youre rawest and truest form of yourself for another person. and feeling seen and loved despite it.

this is not present AT ALL in mileven as a couple. they are both discovering who they are still and are not space to be doing that in a relationship where they feel the need to hide themselves from each other. you cant find yourself that way.

wow look how much nuance i pulled from mike and el without mentioning will once. wow its almost like will is not the reason their relationship is failing

[will80sbyers]

I think the thing people forget is that Mike and El didn't know each other for long before they got their little crush for each other

they met, got a crush because the other one was a good person to be around and they were curious about each other and kissed and all in one week

then El has to stay away for one year and can only spy on him for that time so she gets to see him and his thoughts a lot and get to know him better and her crush grows to obsession

but listening to someone like they're on a podcast is not the same thing as interaction with them face to face, they don't really know each other by the end of season 2

and especially Mike doesn't know El, he just idealized her

also El herself hadn't even had time to know herself well during s1 because of how she grew up, she didn't know what she liked/disliked, what friends were, what some type of food was...

she was already a good, kind and brave kid but she had to "form" her character traits in a more personal way

when they get back together at the end of season 2 they like each other like you can like someone that you find pretty and also that you think are a cool person because they've been good to you / helped you

then in season 3 they start actually dating and we find out the majority of the time they just love to make out with each other so much to the point that Hopper gets upset about it because he sees that that's not looking like a healthy relationship for their age, kids in actual working long lasting relationships would be more outside having fun than closed in the house kissing, only the ones that have more physical chemistry than anything else want to only do that the majority of the time

then the writers also showed us little moments where we can see that:

They don't like the same songs, don't have explicit common interests except wanting to kiss and... Make fun of Hopper? 😂

Mike doesn't feel safe telling her about Hopper/still feels awkward with her about his own feelings

El was relying on Mike so much that she didn't even took the chance to really be friends with the only other girl in the group until he flaked on her

El and Max had much more fun than Mike and El and also the writers focused on making it clear that El needed to detach from Mike's influence and Hopper's too and get her own ideas about stuff and all and El's character started to shine more

Then season 3 ends with her regressing because she loses Hopper, she needed to be around someone "familiar" after that and getting back with Mike was what provided that for her

Then she starts being part of the Byers family so she got more support around her but she's also being bullied and I suspect she knows Mike idealized her so she started to feel too insecure about herself to actually open up to Mike about it and risk that him seeing her be weak is what made him not love her

In her mind Mike's presence in her life as a boyfriend but even as just a friend (which is what she really wants imo) becomes conditional to him thinking she's cool and not a monster and she starts lying

Meanwhile Mike is going more or less through the same thing because he thinks he's a freak nerd and a nobody compared to El and she will dump him soon so he starts closing off (he never really opened up to her because of his insecurities and also because they are not truly in love)

Then Lenora happens and all of this comes to the surface... In Lenora the writers do the same thing they started to do in season 3 showing us that:

El and Mike don't like the same food (milkshake, pineapple on pizza, burrito for breakfast)

El and Mike dress up to look cooler than they are and present a facade to the other instead of trusting that they will be accepted as they are

El doesn't seek comfort in Mike often, Mike is not good in providing comfort

Mike doesn't inherently feel the need to reassure her about his feelings for her because his fear/insecurity is stronger than his love for her

El and Mike are okay with lying to each other as long as this helps them keep the other in their lives or makes the other think they are cooler than they are

El is okay with leaving Mike behind and not involving him as her partner

Like it's pretty clear this relationship is not gonna last... I think they do love each other SO SO SO MUCH but not in a way that you can call "true love" in the romantic sense

They want the other in their lives forever and I'm sure of that, they do have love for the other, they think the other is a great person with a good heart and they did have a crush/like each other physically in my opinion (and that's why they stayed together this long) but they just are not in love, the writers have not showed me they are in love they have just made the characters say it (I think they do even think they're saying the truth when they aren't) without backing it up by the narrative they presented around them

[love-byers]

this is weaponized incompetence at this point holy fuck

"he didn't think having his mom help her get home meant never seeing her again"

WHAT ELSE IS THIS SUPPOSED TO MEAN?? WAS HE GOING TO MAKE SCHEDULED VISITS TO PENNHURST TO SEE HER????

he wasn't concerned with where she came from, he just wanted her out of the way so they could go out looking for will again. "We'll be totally in the clear! And tomorrow night, we go back out. And this time, we find Will."

and yes of COURSE mike wanted her to be home safe. he's a fucking nice person and she was a cold, lost, scared kid. he wanted to make sure she got taken care of and back home safe, and he was gonna focus on finding will again. and i don't know why they think him letting her stay bc she was in danger means he's in love with her. she said bad people were trying to kill her of course he let her stay😭😭 that doesn't indicate romantic love though. and later when dustin and lucas were getting on mike for not going through with the original plan he tells them she needs to stay because she knows will and she knows how to find him, and that the bad people after her might be the same people who took will. no one is trying to say he didn't care about her, but if what he did for el indicates romantic love then he's 1000% in love with will too lmfao

and keep in mind this whole time mike is supposed to KNOW he's in love with her, his words not mine. he's supposedly in love when he says "She'll send her back to Pennhurst or wherever she comes from" ??

and again, no one is trying to say mike hated el or didnt care about her or anything like that. mike was a child doing the best he could in that situation, he wanted to find will and help el. but mike himself claims he had already crossed the line into PURE ROMANTIC LOVE and KNEW IT. if that was the case then he would not be saying those things, he just wouldn't. in stranger things we are shown that characters love each other by their careful attentive behavior towards each other and their desire to stay together as a team, and they take time to get to that point, they need to develop. this is why love at first sight just does not work as a label for mike and el's relationship. mikes behavior does not indicate that at all. you'd have to bend and twist and reach in order to make it make sense (when it still wouldn't anyway), and THAT my friend is 10x more delulu than anything bylers say lol

can s5 come out already so we can be done with this shit

[miwiheroes]

Dropping Byler Evidence Every Day Until Season 5

. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁ Day 5: Byler parallels with Jopper and Lumax . ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁

Decided to combine Jopper and Lumax into one post because a lot of them are similar and would actually be more compelling if they were all combined, being that Jopper and Lumax are definitely endgame (they arent in any love triangles or anything)

So again, I'm gonna name the parallel and how intentional it may be. Even if it's not fully intentional as a complete parallel, this still counts as evidence because using the same tropes for Lumax and Jopper as Byler means that they are all romantic.

1. I Lost You

The fact that Byler and Lumax's ones are in the same episode oh my god???? I honestly think this is intentional. While the 'I thought I lost you' thing is common in romantic tropes, to use it for three couples is very much insane and they must have noticed this. Putting the two in the same episode as well..... oh my god

2. Holding Hands

I think that the fact its a parallel is not intentional, but hand holding is just very very common as a romantic trope. It's also the truth that they actually create a separate SHOT for each of these moments too, to signify their importance.

3. A Team

(couldnt find a good screenshot with a caption for byler but there is alt text)

If you want two people to have believable chemistry, you make them work together well. It was never explicitly stated that Jancy were a good team, but you could tell. HOWEVER THIS IS JUST EXPLICIT they are spelling it out for u!!! Mike and El never really work together. They are a couple. But they aren't a team. They don't work together on plans, there's never any back and forth planning (like with byler in s3), and once again, it's never ever acknowledged by either of them that they work well together as a team.

4. On the Bus

Both heart-to-heart scenes use this song behind it:

Oh this is highly highly intentional. You do not just use romantic, TENDER EMOTIONAL music for one couple who are definitely romantic, and then put that in the background of a platonic scene. The creators are literally screaming at u guys here <3 THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE ROMANTICCC HELLO

(also both these scenes end with them smiling at the other and they get interrupted by a noise before anything else can happen)

5. We have to kill it

Sorry guys i totally forgot to include this one in the Jancy parallel post but literally fucking LOOK!! This is intentional to me because it is very specific, and if it's an accident that they all want to kill something and the other one agrees, then it still shows that these couples have chemistry because they are on the same page. AND one of them is reassuring the other, foreshadowing that they are gonna be a team in the next season.

Jancy are a team in season 2 after they have this convo in season 1, and Jopper are a team in season 3 after having this convo in season 2. So byler will be a team in season 5.

6. Staying in the Hospital

Honestly this one's just cute, and recontextualises the fact that Mike peers over Will on the bed, and stays by him (even though it doesnt really need recontextualising). The fact that its very romantic and cute for Lumax to do it should mean the exact same thing for Mike to do it.

7. Looking longingly at someone who's pulling away

erm this one is just so clear to me. Not exactly intentional but like- the thing with staring at someone longingly just to have them not look back at you is very slow burn romance. The fact that it's very obvious to ppl that Max is definitely aware of Lucas staring at her, but can't stare back because she's afraid to hurt him/ afraid to show her feelings again definitely parallels Mike too.

Also both Lucas and Max SIGH before going back to what they're doing...

8. TENDER EMOTIONAL MUSIC

so a tender emotional music scene for jopper makes it feel romantic:

Sooooo.... doesn't that mean that it applies for byler too?? Who had it done to them not one, not two, but THREE TIMES IN SEASON 4???

AND LUMAX HAS A SCENE WITH THIS TOO

Thanks for reading yet another long ass post :))) The next ones probably going to be Rovickie parallels because they actually have so many after doing my research so yeah

[isitisitearlymichael]

Constantly seeing people trying to call any speculation about Will & Mike delusional and making out it’s a non-story. Taking away any expectations for season 5, this bothers me for several reasons:

1. The situation is constantly being compared to non-canon ships that people just liked the idea of in the past. In this situation, the show has specifically told us that Will has feelings for Mike, and that is the reason why we are discussing them as a possibility. It is incredibly rare for a non-canon ship to actually be in this situation.

2. If the show never intended to set up Will and Mike as a potential future couple, maybe you shouldn't be blaming the hundreds of thousands of fans who felt that way after watching, and should instead be discussing how this storyline has been mishandled by the showrunners.

3. The constant insistence that the pair getting together would be "unrealistic" for the time period or show in general is utterly hilarious when we're talking about a show called Stranger Things, and Mike's other love interest is a lab born shaven-haired girl with powers. That's definitely realistic for the time!

4. The refusal to take into account time jumps and understand that we're not just expecting Mike to jump from one relationship to another. This also applies to the comments about how a single season is not enough time to develop a new relationship.

5. The failure to recognise that El and Mike have only actually been in a relationship for around 15 months, and at least 6 months of that time they were in a long-distance relationship. Viewers talk about them like they've been together for years simply because of the breaks between seasons. The relationship really isn't that deep at all and they've barely had time to get to know each other properly. We know more about El than Mike does.

6. Finally, the insistence that the storyline has nowhere to go in season 5, despite the fact Mike has yet to discover the truth about Will's feelings, the painting and his speech. Season 4 also promised us that Will and Mike are going to kill Vecna together. In fact, so much of the epilogue was around the boys and hinting that they'd be sticking together throughout season 5. it's clear that we're getting a lot more from them, no matter what.

[starlight-bread-blog]

Okay I'm gonna go full conspiracy, but some of y'all are way worse so I'm doing this. Listen up. Will Byers and Mike Wheeler are fictional characters. Meaning, that everything they do, everything they think and yes, everything they feel has a purpose. So let's look at the facts as they are. Mike couldn't tell El that he loves her, and Will is in love with Mike. Right off the bat, with Will, this fact could lead to two things:

Mike is also in love with Will, and there will be a love triangle with Mike in the middle.

Mike is not in love with Will, and Will will either end up alone, or die, or find another queer boy to love.

With scenario 1, everything is fine. But although on paper, scenario 2 makes sense, we should take into account that everything that Will feels is a carefully thought out decision.

Let's remember the themes and the message of Stranger Things. This show is about the freaks of society, the losers, the outcasts. How people may l give them the side eye, but they have each other. And they'll stand by each other no matter what. So, how does this relate to Will and Mike? Will is a gay boy in the 80s, which not only makes him an outcast, but an outright freak in the eyes of the public. It would go against Stranger Things' message to write a freak trying to find love in his best friend, the one who's supposed to be by his side forever, and having him rejected. In real life, this would not be a problem. If someone is straight, they're straight. But in fiction, the sexuality and or love interest of a character is again, a choice with ramification on the quality of the story. And writing Will, a "freak", having his heart broken by someone who he considered another freak, when you're telling a story about how freaks empower each other by sticking together, is not a smart writing decision.

(There is also the matter of the van scene, where Will's supposedly unrequited feelings are being used to repair El and Mike's relationship, as Will cries over not being able to be with Mike. In other words, if Mike isn't in love with Will, the outcast's suffering is used to fix what's more socially acceptable. Do you see the problem? I don't know how many times I'm going to repeat myself in this post, and I hope it's not getting annoying, but I need to make this as crystal clear as possible: Fiction is not real life. In real life, a gay boy could use some words of affirmation regardless of how they feel, it's just being nice. But in fiction, you have a job to do. You have a story to tell. You have a message you want to put out into the world. And this scene is not compatible with the message).

But let's look at Mike. In season 4, El confronts Mike about him not telling her that he loves her. And throughout that whole scene, not even once, does he just say that he loves her. In the end he does, but the reason as to why he stopped saying it, or why he didn't say it when she confronted him, is never explained. In real life, it's okay if Mike wants to deal with whatever he feels and the reasons behind it with himself. But this is not real life, this was deliberately written to be understood by an audience. It was written to serve a purpose. Mike not being able to tell El that he loves her was a serious conflict in season 4, and the cause behind it is left unknown. This is bad writing, plain and simple. Unless, there is some other factor we are not yet aware of. Unless, he could possibly have feelings for someone else. Maybe that someone is Will.

With that theory in mind, remember when Will and Mike met after a long time of not seeing each other? Will was gonna hug Mike, but Mike just went for a fist bump. There was a very awkward atmosphere in that moment. Why would there be? Once again, I'm not talking about real life. In real life, it could just be awkward because they haven't talked to each other in a while and Mike needs time to adjust. But this is fiction. Every emotion has a purpose, every bit leads to something. And so far, it led to nothing. There was just one awkward moment, with no explanation, and it's never brought up again. There is no reason for it to be there. It's common knowledge that unnecessary story bits shouldn't make it to the final cut. If this wouldn't be expanded upon in some way, it'd be bad writing. It wouldn't be the worst thing to ever happen, but combined with him not being able to tell El that he loves her, it's all very confusing to say the least. But the story is not over, and maybe, all will be explained. And just maybe, that awkwardness could be described as tension between the two. Maybe Mike is in love with Will. That would be the most logical explanation.

[faelorelia]

It’s more unrealistic for Will to get over Mike than for Mike to reciprocate Will’s feelings.

Why? Because this is a fictional story. In real life, it’s common for someone to have to move on from their first love, no matter how painful it is – that’s reality, and no one argues with that.

But this doesn’t apply to a fictional setting where the creators have deliberately emphasized a unique, deep bond between two characters. They’ve singled them out from the group, placed them in heartfelt, romantically coded one-on-one scenes, had them say incredibly sweet things to each other, and shown them going above and beyond for one another. On top of that, one of them has been confirmed to be in love with the other – and that person is one of the most traumatized characters in the show, someone who never seems to catch a break.

How can anyone argue that it would be good for Will to end up with a random NPC he hasn’t even interacted with yet, just to give him “someone”? What would that mean? “Poor gay boy, you can’t have the love of your life, the person you sacrificed your feelings for to make him happy – that’s too good for you. Here, take this character we introduced last-minute to avoid queerbaiting allegations and prove we haven’t forgotten about you.” Is that really what people want for Will? For him to not be rewarded for everything he’s endured?

I’m not claiming to know what the writers have planned or how the show will end. But if they give Will a last-minute love interest just to avoid leaving him single, it will be a complete disservice to his character and an insult to fans who resonate with his experiences.

And it’s not like it’s clear that Mike doesn’t feel the same. In fact, there are countless moments where Mike looks just as in love with Will as Will is with him. Here are just a few examples.

There are also moments of Mike acting “weird” that don’t add up when considered together:

• His lack of response to El’s kiss at the end of S3, along with how he seemed distant and not fully invested during their S4 reunion and their Rink-O-Mania “date”.

• His inability to say “I love you” to El, and his visible struggle with the topic throughout S4, suggesting there’s more to it than meets the eye.

• His inability to balance his relationships with El and Will.

• His constant feelings of inferiority with El, contrasted with how uplifted and himself he feels with Will.

• Him clearly viewing Will differently from his other friends – saying things with romantic undertones, acting differently with him (like one might act with their love interest). And yes, he’s looked at Will’s lips a few times (more than Will has).

To dismiss the possibility of Byler and get mad at those who connect these dots is ignorant and narrow-minded. To call us crazy and delusional is disrespectful. And to claim that “Stranger Things” – a show about nerds and outcasts – would never give us a touching gay love story because it’s “too mainstream” is to completely misunderstand its themes and core message.

[teambyler]

Byler wouldn't be "straightbaiting"

When Byler becomes canon, I can already see the accusations:

"We've been straightbaited by this show TWICE!" (Referring to Robin being gay after being a possible love interest for Steve.)

But this isn't about keeping "score" between the gays and the straights. It's about what makes sense for the characters.

Steve thought he and Robin would make a great ROMANTIC COUPLE, but as it turns out not only is she gay but he's also has needed a BEST FRIEND outside the "popular crowd" he's grown out of. (In retrospect, it was also clear that Steve wasn't really into her sexually but liked her as a good friend.) And Robin has needed someone she can come out to and talk to about girls:

Mike and Will, meanwhile, are BEST FRIENDS, but they'll actually become, well, you know...

Mike and Will are the same thing, in reverse. They have all the same nerd interests. But Mike also feels inadequate in his relationship. He needs someone who sees him as a hero. Will has felt the deepest love for Mike after all Mike's done to help him. They give what the other person needs.

"Straightbaiting" would be the show building up a straight romantic couple as something that makes sense for everyone involved, then pulling the rug out from under them to cater to mass-market pressure (which let's be real doesn't exist for LGBT+ couples since most viewers relate more to straight relationships).

Nope! If Byler plays out, it wouldn't be "straightbaiting." It would be be "Mike- and Will-serving."

People who yell "straightbaiting" really just have a problem because Byler would be the first time two MAIN CHARACTERS got in a same-sex relationship with each other, in a show that already has had FIVE heterosexual pairings: Nancy/Steve, Mike/El, Nancy/Jonathan, Lucas/Max, and Joyce/Hopper. They just want straight people to have a monopoly on representation (again).

-teambyler

[carmenilla]

incoming anti-milkvan rant but pro-elmike rant (and some byler mixed in there because you know me)

my rants aren’t very organized so i apologize :,)

mike and el haven’t been together since like the first season, and their relationship has been descending since then.

the most they’ve spent by each other’s side was in season three, and even then they were in a group setting like the whole time and it wasn’t them, together. also we’ve all seen the season three blocking. they are almost never next to each other

with will it’s the opposite. mike and will spent no time together in season 1, but spent 90% of the time together in both season 2 and season 4 (el was barely with mike in either of these seasons) and while season three had them be less of a pair, once again, the season three blocking comes in clutch and makes sure to pair mike with will in every group setting

they even spent the end of season 4 together. even after mike confessed his “love” for el. el and mike aren’t talking, they aren’t with each other, they’re not even paired together in the blocking of the final shot. (we all know who is, though.

when are mike and el ever together since they’ve been dating, excluding scenes that further the deterioration of their relationship? they’re barely together at all.

el continuously has a plot/subplot of coming into her own. being independent. not being defined by papa, or her dad, or mike (as max says in season three). obviously she wants to have a family and loved ones. she deserves to have that. she does have that - but that’s not going to be taken away or lessened by her standing on her own two legs without anyone else telling her how they want her to do so

all of this has been leading to a milkvan breakup. it’s been built up for multiple seasons now. they’ve laid the ground work. mike and el were best together and understood each other the most when they were friends.

notice how i didn’t say “just friends” - romantic relationships are not actually any stronger than friendship. just different. in fact, friendship is stronger, and while romance can heighten that (like with other pairings in the show) sometimes it just doesn’t (like with mike and el).

mike and el haven’t been friends for a while. like how people say “just friends”, they’re just dating. they’ve been doing this since they were so young and they’re still so young and they don’t understand the importance of the friendship aspect of romantic relationships. they only understand what girlfriend and boyfriend are supposed to do, and they can’t even try to do that without it all falling apart.

they need to be friends again. their relationship would be so much stronger. i miss their friendship. they were so sweet and so understanding and so good together when they were actually friends. a lot of couples are both friends and dating, especially in stranger things - look at lumax, my favorite example of this and why i love them so much. but mike and el aren’t. and they should be. they were best when they were

i fucking love elmike and there’s no chance of me getting them back if they keep trying to date each other “correctly” instead of, i don’t know, trying to be friends again. making genuine connections with each other. being true to the nature of their relationship. they are such friends, and maybe if they were friends and dating it would work out, but they’re not and it’s clear they’re not going to be. so if it’s one or the other, they should pick friends. they are amazing together as friends. they were always best as friends.

and then when we flip over to the byler side of things. mike and will have had a long time being friends. they’ve been friends, best friends, since kindergarten. in season 5, they’ll be in junior year, and they will have been best friends for ten years. they’ve had time to have their relationship develop, unlike mike and eleven. they are so clearly very good to each other and with each other as friends - but there is something grating on their relationship and friendship recently. something bubbling beneath the surface, making smooth sailing not so smooth.

yes, this is a metaphor for homosexuality. homosexuality is banging on their door. these bitches GAY. and it’s straining their friendship. they’re still friends, obviously, and they still want to be, but by ignoring this whole other piece of their relationship, they start fighting and misunderstanding each other for the first time in the history of their friendship. something clearly needs to change here.

when byler does become canon, there is zero doubt in my mind that they will still also be friends. that is the backbone and most important part of their relationship, and that is why their relationship will work. and that’s also 80% of the reason why i ship them, especially over milkvan, who just aren’t friends anymore like they were in s1.

something needs to change here in both mike and el’s relationship and mike and will’s. something that will benefit all these characters individually and their relationships. something that the creators have been laying the groundwork for for multiple seasons now. and i cannot wait to watch it happen. i love all three of these characters so much and i need them to get their happy ending

[thranduel]

just so we’re clear, if the writers did NOT involve will and make him in love with mike since the start and then have the audacity to use him as a plot device to push mike into telling his girlfriend he loves her, i would be way less frustrated about that monologue. if their intention was to make mike and el a couple since the start until the end, and they were actually a well-written couple that eventually learned how to understand each other and communicate without using a traumatised gay kid as a plot device to “fix” their problems (which were not actually fixed), i would be fine with that, but that’s not what they did. will never, ever had to be shoved in the middle of their relationship and forced to watch them be lovey dovey together for several seasons in a row. it’s cruel, unnecessary and horrible writing if the outcome is just going to be the same as always: will has unrequited love and mike and el stay stuck together with no growth or development. mike and el DID have potential to be a wonderful, well-loved couple, but the writers miserably failed with that the moment they decided to involve another kid who has been through enough

[butterflysonnets]

yes i'm rooting for m*leven breakup because byler is neat but mostly? i'm rooting for m*leven breakup for the sake of el and mike.

to me, their romance was always a puppy love born out of a combination of social pressures, naïve curiosity, and a lack of true understanding regarding intimacy and romantic love and what it really is. it was real in that they do truly, deeply care about each other and they are close friends, maybe even shared an attraction, but a maturing romance is so much more than that. they've grown up and out of being boyfriend/girlfriend, and that's okay! i think television/film needs to show more often that most of us don't have definite "soulmates" or first childhood loves that we spend our whole lives with. it doesn't mean these relationships meant nothing and didn't impact us, it just means they've run their course and that something else is in the cards, and this is part of life!

i've always felt el was at her best and most confident self when broken up with mike, discovering who she was and what she liked alongside another girl her age instead of just relying on mike for mentorship on how to live in the real world. she deserves more of an opportunity to find herself, her autonomy, and her independence, and to love who she is, and she's made it clear she's felt insecure in the relationship with mike because she isn't being loved and understood the way she wants, needs, and deserves from someone who is her partner.

also, it's okay if mike doesn't love her in "the way he should". he is not obligated to love her romantically and stay in a relationship with her just because she's a girl, because she "needed someone", or because he cares about her a lot. he shouldn't be pressured into a romance if it's not truly coming from his heart. he deserves freedom to find out and honour who he is, too, instead of just staying in his non-functional first relationship — one he got into as a child, essentially — and defining himself that way because it's what's expected when a boy and a girl are close. he loves her in some way, yes, but it's okay if he doesn't feel comfortable or secure being her boyfriend anymore, for whatever reason that is. he's felt insecure too, and that's valid and it matters.

they are their own people and are steadily growing and changing every day. they need time to figure out who those people are, and it's become clear (at least in my opinion) that those people aren't meant to be a couple at this stage.

they deserve freedom. they deserve to grow up and be authentic to themselves and not feel like they need to lie for the sake of a relationship. they deserve to move on from this version of their relationship that isn't making them happy and rekindle the best part of their bond: their strong, beautiful friendship. they don't have to be a couple if it doesn't make them stronger and better and happier people.

i think it would be healthy and wonderful for a show, especially one consumed frequently by young adults, to show a relationship starting, progressing, and ending on good terms in this way. sometimes things don't work out, and that is okay.