#they would make it clear that mike and el love each other and that’s that

[miwiheroes]

Dropping Byler Evidence Every Day Until Season 5

Day 5: Byler parallels with Jopper and Lumax

Decided to combine Jopper and Lumax into one post because a lot of them are similar and would actually be more compelling if they were all combined, being that Jopper and Lumax are definitely endgame (they arent in any love triangles or anything)

So again, I'm gonna name the parallel and how intentional it may be. Even if it's not fully intentional as a complete parallel, this still counts as evidence because using the same tropes for Lumax and Jopper as Byler means that they are all romantic.

1. I Lost You

The fact that Byler and Lumax's ones are in the same episode oh my god???? I honestly think this is intentional. While the 'I thought I lost you' thing is common in romantic tropes, to use it for three couples is very much insane and they must have noticed this. Putting the two in the same episode as well..... oh my god

2. Holding Hands

I think that the fact its a parallel is not intentional, but hand holding is just very very common as a romantic trope. It's also the truth that they actually create a separate SHOT for each of these moments too, to signify their importance.

3. A Team

(couldnt find a good screenshot with a caption for byler but there is alt text)

If you want two people to have believable chemistry, you make them work together well. It was never explicitly stated that Jancy were a good team, but you could tell. HOWEVER THIS IS JUST EXPLICIT they are spelling it out for u!!! Mike and El never really work together. They are a couple. But they aren't a team. They don't work together on plans, there's never any back and forth planning (like with byler in s3), and once again, it's never ever acknowledged by either of them that they work well together as a team.

4. On the Bus

Both heart-to-heart scenes use this song behind it:

Oh this is highly highly intentional. You do not just use romantic, TENDER EMOTIONAL music for one couple who are definitely romantic, and then put that in the background of a platonic scene. The creators are literally screaming at u guys here <3 THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE ROMANTICCC HELLO

(also both these scenes end with them smiling at the other and they get interrupted by a noise before anything else can happen)

5. We have to kill it

Sorry guys i totally forgot to include this one in the Jancy parallel post but literally fucking LOOK!! This is intentional to me because it is very specific, and if it's an accident that they all want to kill something and the other one agrees, then it still shows that these couples have chemistry because they are on the same page. AND one of them is reassuring the other, foreshadowing that they are gonna be a team in the next season.

Jancy are a team in season 2 after they have this convo in season 1, and Jopper are a team in season 3 after having this convo in season 2. So byler will be a team in season 5.

6. Staying in the Hospital

Honestly this one's just cute, and recontextualises the fact that Mike peers over Will on the bed, and stays by him (even though it doesnt really need recontextualising). The fact that its very romantic and cute for Lumax to do it should mean the exact same thing for Mike to do it.

7. Looking longingly at someone who's pulling away

erm this one is just so clear to me. Not exactly intentional but like- the thing with staring at someone longingly just to have them not look back at you is very slow burn romance. The fact that it's very obvious to ppl that Max is definitely aware of Lucas staring at her, but can't stare back because she's afraid to hurt him/ afraid to show her feelings again definitely parallels Mike too.

Also both Lucas and Max SIGH before going back to what they're doing...

8. TENDER EMOTIONAL MUSIC

so a tender emotional music scene for jopper makes it feel romantic:

Sooooo.... doesn't that mean that it applies for byler too?? Who had it done to them not one, not two, but THREE TIMES IN SEASON 4???

AND LUMAX HAS A SCENE WITH THIS TOO

Thanks for reading yet another long ass post :))) The next ones probably going to be Rovickie parallels because they actually have so many after doing my research so yeah

[chirpsythismorning]

Milkvans complaining about bylers not mentioning Finn’s response about about the monologue is so funny, as if it didn’t support byler endgame even more 🤣

Finn saying I think he knows she thinks all this, bc I think there’s a reason why he says it, is because she— she— he’s been waiting to say it for a long time and she’s been waiting for him to say it for a long time. I think it’s an interesting thought, having that reciprocated. Yeah I think so. I don’t… I don’t know. I would hope… idk… great question and thought tho…

Like he literally cuts himself off before implying that Mike knows how El feels and that she wanted him to say I love you for a while, which is the very reason why he said it in the first place, despite seasons of attempting to say it, stalling repeatedly, only to fail each time up until now when there was literally no option not to in his eyes…

How is that a milkvan win?…

Not only that, but he didn’t make it sound hopeful for their future either. It’s still up in the air according to him. He makes a point of just saying interesting question over and over, only to not actually come up with an answer…

The assumption for many viewers, specifically milkvans, is that everything is great for Mike and El right now bc the monologue fixed everything. If that’s the case why does Finn end that question on a sort of question mark with it still up in the air? Least of all when you’re dealing with a queer ship on the other end, with him making much more of an effort to imply that it will be addressed. It’ll pay off vs. idk?…

This is like the casts reaction to the monologue all over again. The interviewer asked about Mike and El’s future and Finn basically danced around it saying he’s looking forward to all of their endings and is mostly interested to know if Mike will stay in Hawkins, adding at the end that he hopes Mike and El you know, find… happiness.

He’s always giving answers that work both ways. Byler endgame still fits in with whatever he says, whether milkvans want to acknowledge that or not.

Otherwise there would be no reason for him to try so hard to be ambiguous about Mike and El’s feelings, as if it’s this big spoiler… unless what’s about to go down is something most the audience won’t expect…

[thebylertheory]

"If you think El doesn't need to end the show in a relationship and she can be happy without one, then that goes for Will too" here's why you're wrong.

The reason why it's different for Will, whether you like it or not, IS because of his sexuality. Homophobia and Will's belief that he'll never find romantic love because of him being gay is a core part of his character. Romantic love, or the lack thereof, has been an important part of his story for at least the past two seasons. He already has an abundance of love from his friends and family. He's not lacking on that part. But he wants romantic love. That is what he desires. They have made that clear. And they have gone out of their way to show us that he wants that with MIKE. And they have even taken it a step further and shown us why Mike and Will would be good together. They bring out the best in each other and they make one another feel good about themselves. So, for them to do all of that and then end the show by reaffirming Will's belief that he was right and he's never going to find love because he's gay is a very cruel and pointless ending for his character. He has suffered enough. He should be allowed to end the show with the boy he loves and believing that he's worthy of that type of love. He deserves to have the relationship he's always wanted and thought he would never have.

Romantic love has never been an important part of El's story. Since season 1, she has been trying to find a family/home and she has been trying to find out who she is in a world she was isolated from since birth. That is the most important part of her story and character. Her relationship with Mike has never been the main focus. In fact, she does better and she thrives more and she sees the most development as a person when her and Mike are separated. They have shown us that their relationship holds her back and that they're not good for each other. They don't make each other feel loved or good about themselves. Now, that's not to say I don't think El should EVER be in a relationship. She can! But a romantic relationship, especially one with Mike, is not as important to her story as it is to Will's. In fact, a relationship with Mike has done more bad than good for her. She doesn't NEED romantic love or a relationship with Mike for her happy ending. Her happy ending can consist of her just being able to live comfortably with her family and knowing who she is and feeling confident in her identity. That ending is what will be the most fulfilling for her character.

[imfinereallyy]

“Dad is going to be very angry,” El says with wide eyes taking in the scene before them.

“You think Hop will kill him?” Steve says as he leans against the doorway, eating a Twizzler.

El looks at Steve momentarily, sticking her hand out for some candy. Steve hands her one without hesitation. El rips a piece off before speaking. “Oh yes. He might ask you to help hide the body.”

Steve nods solemnly, “I’ll do what needs to be done. Mikes’s my least favorite child anyway.”

“Hey!” Mike yells, gaining the duo's attention. It brings them back to the scene they walked in on. Mike and Will, with the door closed (no three inches in sight) on top of each other, making out.

Steve doesn't think he’ll ever get that image out of his brain.

“Chill, Wheeler, I'm joking,” Steve says pointedly before turning to El and mouthing no, I'm not.

El giggles, and Steve can't help but feel like he won a prize at the sound.

“I'm sorry, El.” Will blushes with shame, like he is betraying his sister somehow.

El just shrugs, “I do not care. But Dad might. He hates Mike.”

Steve snorts, “That's the understatement of the century. I don't think Hop has ever hated someone’s partner like he has Mike. Honestly, I was surprised he liked Eddie. I mean like is a strong word. But he tolerates him.”

Will pipes up, “I think he does mostly because he knows you'll move out, and he only just got you to agree to stay here.”

Steve shrugs, “I’ll take what I can get. At least he doesn't walk on me having sex.”

“We weren't having sex!” Mike practically screams. Hands up exasperated. “And don't talk about you and Eddie; it's gross.”

Will blushes deeply with head in his hands, “Oh, God.” El pats him on the shoulder in sympathy.

“Also, this wouldn't have happened if you weren't an idiot and just knocked!” Mike stomps. Jesus, this kid is 15 acting 6.

“I was the one who walked in, Mike. I wanted to know if Will wanted to watch a movie.” El says coldly, getting defensive of her brother.

Mike clams up, Steve can't help but feel smug.

“Who’s having sex?!?” A distinct Hopper-like voice echoes through the house.

Will and Mike share a panicked look while Steve and El take more Twizzlers from the bag.

“Oh no. Mike! What are we going to do?”

Mike sputters, “He doesn't have to know it was us! And we weren't having sex!”

Will looks at him like Mike is the biggest moron he's ever met. Steve loves the kid (despite early protest) but has to agree. “Oh gee Mike, I wonder who he will think it was about. Steve? Who is dating a man who isn't here and keep in mind, it's Steve. Who is our brother, and five years older than us? And in a relationship? And let's not forget..is Steve?!”

“This is fair.” Steve agrees. If anyone but Baby Byers had attempted to say that, Steve would have been pissed. But it's Will, so it's coming from a good place.

“Also! Also! The other person here is El! Who is my sister! Not to mention your ex—”

“—well it could have been—”

“Micheal Steven Wheeler, if the next words out of your mouth are it could have been you and El, I will never be kissing you again.” Will uses a deathly tone. Steve isn't convinced he didn't get from El.

“Your middle name is Steven?” Steve fills giddy.

“Shut up Steve!”

Will pinches his brows, “And you idiot, if it were you and El, you would still he toast.”

Steve whistles, “Shit, Will. Next time I need to win an argument against Eddie. I'm coming to you.”

“How long does it take for dad to get upstairs?” El interrupts.

All of them look down the hall. “Huh, maybe we are in the clear,” Mike whispers.

“I said who is having sex?!?” Hopper comes thundering up the stairs.

“I think this is what Max calls a jinx.” El looks at Mike unphased.

Steve can't help but feel a little bad for Will. He looks panicked around the room, probably looking for a hiding place. Steve knows that it isn't that same fear Will once had of Lenny, Hop wouldn't hurt them ever, but he can't help but feel a little protective of him. Steve knows all too well how the fears of biological fathers can sneak up on you, even if you know you're safe. “Don’t worry, Will. I'll make sure Hop takes it easy.”

Will relaxes, “Thanks Steve.”

“What about me?” Mike asks, eyes wide.

El shares a look with Steve. Spending as much time as they have lately has allowed them to talk without speaking most of the time. It freaks everyone but Robin out (she gets it). Seconds go by before they both nod in agreement.

Steve and El both wip their heads towards Mike, and Steve says, “You were grossed out by my relationship and called me stupid. Suffer.”

Mike's outcry is in synch with Hop breaking through screaming, “There better be three inches!”

[fablefrogg]

Why Does Will Byers Bring His Painting? (To the Airport and On Their Road-Trip)

I think it's so interesting that Will decided to paint the DnD party as a gift for Mike.

Since he brought the painting with him to the airport, we know that Will was definitely NEVER going to confess his feelings to Mike since he has very much resigned himself to the idea that Mike is straight and is in love with El (and El, Jonathan, and Argyle are also there with him so we can safely assume that he had never meant for his painting to be given in a romantic light).

Rather, Will brings the painting to the airport as a surprise for Mike in the hopes of reconciling their friendship.

Will, most likely, had intended the painting to be a friendly gift for Mike and it wouldn't be out of the ordinary, considering that Will has given Mike plenty of his artwork in the past (shown by Mike's binder of Will's drawings in S1 and how some are put up in his basement).

We know that they left on good terms at the end of S3 when the Byers move away, with a heartfelt conversation that Will would always stay with their original party and a good-bye hug. However, we also know that their contacting each other lessened as the months passed, as revealed by their fight in Rink O' Mania.

But I'm getting too far ahead of myself. Let's go back to the airport reunion before Rink O' Mania happened.

With the previous information now at our disposal, we are in the know that Will and Mike's last few interactions before their airport reunion have been few and far in-between. We don't really have a clue on how their phone calls went but it seems that they were still on good terms, considering Will's very happy expression on his face as he waits for Mike to arrive. But again, we know that Will is aware that their contact has been dwindling when he confronts Mike about it later on in the skating rink.

With this awareness, I believe that Will wanted to make sure that their friendship is still intact, even after the little communication they've had since the Byers move to California. That their strong friendship will continue to exist even if they were separated.

His answer to repairing their friendship was going to be his DnD painting. This painting must have taken a while to complete, a small signifier showing how long and often Will has thought about this. It is no coincidence that he chose the DnD party as his subject for his painting since their last in-person interaction is when Mike asks whether Will is going to join a new party and Will replies that that's not possible. By painting their DnD party, Will is basically referring back to that interaction and expressing to Mike that he didn't forget about them and that he never will, even after all this time and distance.

Which is why it's heartbreaking when Mike rejects Will's hug at the airport.

Since Mike is acting cold towards him, Will believes that Mike may not actually be receptive to his painting and his message behind it, so he (understandably) opts to not give the painting to him, referring to it as simply "just a painting". If Mike hadn't apologized to Will after their Rink O' Mania fight, I think that Will would have hidden that painting away where it will gather dust and never see the light of day.

Now, what is very interesting is that Will chooses to bring his painting again, this time on their road trip to get El back. But you may ask: Mike and Will have already reconciled their friendship when they have their heart-to-heart in Will's room so what else would be the reason to bring it?

Because now that he is assured in knowing that Mike has actually been wanting to reconcile with Will, expressing to him that Hawkins isn't the same without Will and that Mike felt like he lost him, Will deems it safe to bring it again. After all, judging by El's letter to Mike that Will has been working on it for weeks, Will wants to make it clear to Mike that even though Mike initiated their reconciliation, Will isn't passive in their friendship. Will is not someone who initiates so he shows in his own way that he does care. This painting proves that he's been thinking about them ALL THIS TIME. This friendship is just as important to him as it is to Mike.

However, as the road trip goes on, Will sees that Mike is worried and stressed about El and whether she really needs him through their heart-to-heart at the junkyard. Will probably thought that it would be insensitive to give him that painting now when it seems clear that Mike is in emotional turmoil about El and that he doesn't have much room to think about anything else. Again, he was NEVER going to confess his feelings with the painting. At this point in the road trip, he has already offered much relationship advice to Mike about El so we know he is supporting Mike and El's relationship.

Will had meant to use his painting to reconcile their friendship. Instead, he uses his painting to repair Mike's relationship with El.

After all, they have already technically reconciled their friendship, so Mike doesn't need the painting as more reassurance for that, right?

'What Mike needs is to know that he will always be needed and that he is so, so important to not just El but to the whole party. He is the heart, he's always been. I can't help much but this, I can do.'

So, Will resolves himself to be the initiator this time, giving Mike his painting on the basis that 'El had commissioned him' so that Mike can understand the inherent self-worth he has and how much he has impacted Will by making him feel better for being different. He not only expresses these feelings but his love for Mike under the guise of El's, knowing that he is helping Mike and El reconcile and that they will be stronger than ever once they do.

He knows that there is nothing to be gained from confessing his feelings. But by actually saying his feelings for Mike out loud to the very same person, Will has given these feelings corporeal form. Now, another person knows (to an extent) about his true feelings, and Will cannot take them back. And by acknowledging his love for Mike, he also has to acknowledge, by association, that Mike will never reciprocate back because Mike is in love with El and even if he wasn't, Will would never be the recipient of Mike's love. Of course, Will has already known this but expressing out loud to the person you are in love with feels final. Finished.

It is at this point that Will isn't only actively supporting Mike and El's relationship. This is Will Byers fully giving up.

But now, his lie about his painting is up in the air.

I'd guess that in the final season, Will is never going to confess his feelings and that he resolves to hide them. But just like how Mike initiates many of their moments together, I believe Mike will confront Will about this and bring Will's feelings to light, sooner or later. And I think that Will Byers is going to be in for a big surprise.

Edit: Forgot to mention, the throw-away line in the van scene where Will talks about going to Las Vegas and playing DnD and Nintendo for the rest of their lives is a call-back to the rain fight where Will said that they could just play games in Mike's basement for the rest of their lives. In both cases, playing games for the rest of their lives is a metaphor for Will's wish to spend the rest of their life together and to grow old together. So the fact that Will lies about his DnD painting for Mike and El's relationship could symbolize him giving up that dream.

[willthewiz]

Jonathan Capturing the Right Moment

In this scene, Jonathan says he'd rather observe people than talk to them. And then says:

“People don’t really say what they're really thinking. When you capture the right moment, it says more.”

We'll get back to that later.

Here is Jonathan in season 4:

In the van scene, the camera only cuts to Jonathan when Will is telling a lie. Remember, Jonathan said people don't say what they're really thinking (the truth). But he captured the right moment, when it says more. Jonathan knows what Will is actually saying are his feelings not El's.

Will tells Mike that El told him what to draw. Then the camera cuts right to Jonathan. When he knows Will painted it and El didn't know what it was or who it was for.

Will: "I mean, without heart we'd all fall apart. Even El, especially El."

Then it cuts to Mike then Jonathan. Again, Jonathan knows this is about Will, not El. He's capturing these moments.

Will continues to lie and we once again, cut to Jonathan.

Here is more of Jonathan:

Mike: "But I am scared that one day you'll realize you don't need me anymore. And I thought that if I said how I felt it would somehow make that day hurt more."

We cut to Will and then Jonathan.

“People don’t really say what they're really thinking. When you capture the right moment, it says more.”

"But I am scared that one day you'll realize you don't need me anymore. And I thought that if I said how I felt it would somehow make that day hurt more."

Mike's fear & reason for not telling El he loves her:

What he thinks would happen:

Mike says I love you to El

One day, El realizes she doesn't need him anymore

That day hurts because she doesn't need him even though he loves her

El WANTED Mike to tell her that he loved her, but he didn't say it because he was afraid of losing her??

If Mike told El that he loved her, why would he still have doubts that she wouldn't need him??

Because Mike doesn't love her romantically and he's scared that if she knew, she wouldn't need him anymore. But that's just not true.

Jonathan is observing him in this scene. In previous scenes, Will is lying to Mike. Will isn't saying what he's really thinking (the truth to Mike). But Jonathan captures those specific moments, those lies. He sees through them and they become something more. The truth. Will is confessing his feelings for Mike through El.

In this scene, Mike is lying to El. Mike isn't saying what he's really thinking (the truth to El). But Jonathan captures this particular moment. This moment is when he sees through Mike's lies. He sees the truth. Mike is confessing his real feelings. He's saying that he isn't in love her and he's scared to lose her because of that. He's saying that the whole reason why he didn't tell her he loved her is because he's scared El wouldn't need him anymore.

Again, if Mike told El that he loved her, why would he think El wouldn't need him anymore? Why is he so scared that one day she'll come to this realization? Hm... I wonder...

Mike doesn't love El romantically, but he needs her. They will always need each other. And, I think, in season 5, Mike will realize that El will always need him and that they don't need to be in love with one another to stay with one another. Mike wouldn't lose her just because they're not together as a couple anymore.

--------------

Idk if any of this made sense or not. Not really sure about the whole Jonathan thing, but it is clear that he observes Will (and people in general) and knows he loves Mike. I just thought that what Jonathan said is interesting. Is this the shows way of saying that characters don't always mean what they say? Maybe...

I don't know anything about film, so don't take this seriously. I have no idea what I'm doing, I'm just bored and very sleep deprived.

Let me know what you think:)

[will80sbyers]

I think the thing people forget is that Mike and El didn't know each other for long before they got their little crush for each other

they met, got a crush because the other one was a good person to be around and they were curious about each other and kissed and all in one week

then El has to stay away for one year and can only spy on him for that time so she gets to see him and his thoughts a lot and get to know him better and her crush grows to obsession

but listening to someone like they're on a podcast is not the same thing as interaction with them face to face, they don't really know each other by the end of season 2

and especially Mike doesn't know El, he just idealized her

also El herself hadn't even had time to know herself well during s1 because of how she grew up, she didn't know what she liked/disliked, what friends were, what some type of food was...

she was already a good, kind and brave kid but she had to "form" her character traits in a more personal way

when they get back together at the end of season 2 they like each other like you can like someone that you find pretty and also that you think are a cool person because they've been good to you / helped you

then in season 3 they start actually dating and we find out the majority of the time they just love to make out with each other so much to the point that Hopper gets upset about it because he sees that that's not looking like a healthy relationship for their age, kids in actual working long lasting relationships would be more outside having fun than closed in the house kissing, only the ones that have more physical chemistry than anything else want to only do that the majority of the time

then the writers also showed us little moments where we can see that:

They don't like the same songs, don't have explicit common interests except wanting to kiss and... Make fun of Hopper? 😂

Mike doesn't feel safe telling her about Hopper/still feels awkward with her about his own feelings

El was relying on Mike so much that she didn't even took the chance to really be friends with the only other girl in the group until he flaked on her

El and Max had much more fun than Mike and El and also the writers focused on making it clear that El needed to detach from Mike's influence and Hopper's too and get her own ideas about stuff and all and El's character started to shine more

Then season 3 ends with her regressing because she loses Hopper, she needed to be around someone "familiar" after that and getting back with Mike was what provided that for her

Then she starts being part of the Byers family so she got more support around her but she's also being bullied and I suspect she knows Mike idealized her so she started to feel too insecure about herself to actually open up to Mike about it and risk that him seeing her be weak is what made him not love her

In her mind Mike's presence in her life as a boyfriend but even as just a friend (which is what she really wants imo) becomes conditional to him thinking she's cool and not a monster and she starts lying

Meanwhile Mike is going more or less through the same thing because he thinks he's a freak nerd and a nobody compared to El and she will dump him soon so he starts closing off (he never really opened up to her because of his insecurities and also because they are not truly in love)

Then Lenora happens and all of this comes to the surface... In Lenora the writers do the same thing they started to do in season 3 showing us that:

El and Mike don't like the same food (milkshake, pineapple on pizza, burrito for breakfast)

El and Mike dress up to look cooler than they are and present a facade to the other instead of trusting that they will be accepted as they are

El doesn't seek comfort in Mike often, Mike is not good in providing comfort

Mike doesn't inherently feel the need to reassure her about his feelings for her because his fear/insecurity is stronger than his love for her

El and Mike are okay with lying to each other as long as this helps them keep the other in their lives or makes the other think they are cooler than they are

El is okay with leaving Mike behind and not involving him as her partner

Like it's pretty clear this relationship is not gonna last... I think they do love each other SO SO SO MUCH but not in a way that you can call "true love" in the romantic sense

They want the other in their lives forever and I'm sure of that, they do have love for the other, they think the other is a great person with a good heart and they did have a crush/like each other physically in my opinion (and that's why they stayed together this long) but they just are not in love, the writers have not showed me they are in love they have just made the characters say it (I think they do even think they're saying the truth when they aren't) without backing it up by the narrative they presented around them

[isitisitearlymichael]

Constantly seeing people trying to call any speculation about Will & Mike delusional and making out it’s a non-story. Taking away any expectations for season 5, this bothers me for several reasons:

1. The situation is constantly being compared to non-canon ships that people just liked the idea of in the past. In this situation, the show has specifically told us that Will has feelings for Mike, and that is the reason why we are discussing them as a possibility. It is incredibly rare for a non-canon ship to actually be in this situation.

2. If the show never intended to set up Will and Mike as a potential future couple, maybe you shouldn't be blaming the hundreds of thousands of fans who felt that way after watching, and should instead be discussing how this storyline has been mishandled by the showrunners.

3. The constant insistence that the pair getting together would be "unrealistic" for the time period or show in general is utterly hilarious when we're talking about a show called Stranger Things, and Mike's other love interest is a lab born shaven-haired girl with powers. That's definitely realistic for the time!

4. The refusal to take into account time jumps and understand that we're not just expecting Mike to jump from one relationship to another. This also applies to the comments about how a single season is not enough time to develop a new relationship.

5. The failure to recognise that El and Mike have only actually been in a relationship for around 15 months, and at least 6 months of that time they were in a long-distance relationship. Viewers talk about them like they've been together for years simply because of the breaks between seasons. The relationship really isn't that deep at all and they've barely had time to get to know each other properly. We know more about El than Mike does.

6. Finally, the insistence that the storyline has nowhere to go in season 5, despite the fact Mike has yet to discover the truth about Will's feelings, the painting and his speech. Season 4 also promised us that Will and Mike are going to kill Vecna together. In fact, so much of the epilogue was around the boys and hinting that they'd be sticking together throughout season 5. it's clear that we're getting a lot more from them, no matter what.

[teambyler]

Byler wouldn't be "straightbaiting"

When Byler becomes canon, I can already see the accusations:

"We've been straightbaited by this show TWICE!" (Referring to Robin being gay after being a possible love interest for Steve.)

But this isn't about keeping "score" between the gays and the straights. It's about what makes sense for the characters.

Steve thought he and Robin would make a great ROMANTIC COUPLE, but as it turns out not only is she gay but he's also has needed a BEST FRIEND outside the "popular crowd" he's grown out of. (In retrospect, it was also clear that Steve wasn't really into her sexually but liked her as a good friend.) And Robin has needed someone she can come out to and talk to about girls:

Mike and Will, meanwhile, are BEST FRIENDS, but they'll actually become, well, you know...

Mike and Will are the same thing, in reverse. They have all the same nerd interests. But Mike also feels inadequate in his relationship. He needs someone who sees him as a hero. Will has felt the deepest love for Mike after all Mike's done to help him. They give what the other person needs.

"Straightbaiting" would be the show building up a straight romantic couple as something that makes sense for everyone involved, then pulling the rug out from under them to cater to mass-market pressure (which let's be real doesn't exist for LGBT+ couples since most viewers relate more to straight relationships).

Nope! If Byler plays out, it wouldn't be "straightbaiting." It would be be "Mike- and Will-serving."

People who yell "straightbaiting" really just have a problem because Byler would be the first time two MAIN CHARACTERS got in a same-sex relationship with each other, in a show that already has had FIVE heterosexual pairings: Nancy/Steve, Mike/El, Nancy/Jonathan, Lucas/Max, and Joyce/Hopper. They just want straight people to have a monopoly on representation (again).

-teambyler

[love-byers]

can you speak more on your experience becoming a byler cos this always fascinates me, especially when it's people who were once milevens thanks!

absolutely, i love talking about this lol

so i watched stranger things 1 when it came out in 2016 & i was 12. my media literacy wasn't great at the time, and like most people i liked mike and el's little romance. but i did think their kiss came way too fast and kind of out of nowhere. wasn't a fan of that. i thought it would've been better if they didn't get to kiss and made both the audience and mike and el wait. and i was like "uhhh how does she even know what a kiss is" but whatever

then s2 came out, i was 13. i LOVED mike and will's relationship, maybe even more than i liked mike and el's. when mike grabbed wills hand i VIVIDLY remember thinking "they would be such a good couple, but they'd never do that. oh well!". at this point in my life i was realizing my sexuality and was super into queer media. i say that just so you know i was receptive to queer representation and enjoyed it. but to me at that time, i saw stranger things for the massive success it was, famous enough that they'd never have a main character be queer. it just wasn't a thought in my mind that it could ever happen.

i loved the snowball scene and thought mike and el were super cute. i remember thinking "wow their bond must be so deep and they take each other very seriously. it's them against the world"

i was 15 and BEYOND pissed when s3 came out and it was clear mike and el were reduced to comedly relief. i wanted their relationship to be lovable like it was in s2. i hated how mike became so unlikable when he was with el when he was previously shown to be so loyal and caring. and above all, i hated how it was like mike and will's relationship in 2 never happened. i remember thinking "wtf mike?? do you not remember how protective you were of him before?? how close you were??" at the time i thought it was bad writing and it honestly turned me off of s3 and i didn't finish it for like 2 years.

when i finally did i was a bit confused. i remember watching the rain fight and thinking "wow that felt more like a breakup than mike and el's actual breakup" it just struck me how sad it was compared to the breakup. but my heteronormativity towards stranger things was so strong that i didn't even clock will being gay until someone pointed it out for me. and i definitely didn't clock that will was in love with mike. i remember noticing how mike and will were always together and positioned next to each other like jancy and lumax were. but for some reason, and i really don't know why, i just didn't really absorb it.

what really surprised me was the s3 finale, like the final goodbye scenes. during mike and will's i saw mikes reaction to will saying "not possible" and i was like.....hm. he sure seems happy. but whatever

mike and el's goodbye scene just confused me. i didn't understand why mike acted like he didn't know what she was talking about when he spent all season trying to say i love you, i didn't understand why mike didn't close his eyes or kiss her back when he spent all season trying to say i love you, i didn't understand why el walked away and winced, i didn't understand why mike looked like that when she walked away AFTER HE SPENT ALL SEASON TRYING TO SAY I LOVE YOU, and i didn't understand why the music sounded so happy as if NONE OF IT HAPPENED. and when mike hugged karen i was like, why does he look like he just realized something??? wtf is happening???

i didn't realize there was any romance between mike and will until s4. actually, i heard people saying will was gay and in love with mike and i was like "pshh no way". then i saw the trailer where el says will likes someone and i was like "oh my god they did make him in love with mike". but again, for some strange reason, i felt like it was a decision made solely for s4. VERY stupid of me.

here i go more in depth about my specific reactions to s4 scenes but theres one i didn't mention and it's the way mike looks will up and down when he says "cool". i was like "uhh that was kinda flirty..."

but i finished vol 1 thinking about byler a little more. i heard there was a masterdoc about them so i read it, and for the first bit of it i didn't really believe any of it. then i saw the eyewitness parallel and i was like HHHHWHAAAAAAAT???????????????????? i VIVIDLY remember thinking "how is this possible?? didn't this come out of nowh--" and then it ALL hit me in the face. my jaw literally dropped. it's like i rewatched all of st in 3 seconds and everything made sense. the eyewitness parallel finally made me accept the writers would have gay characters and romance, and that was all it took. i never went back. mike and will's bond in s2, the decline of mike and el's relationship, mike and will's tension in s3, mikes reaction to not possible, mike reaction to el saying i love you, all of it made sense. at that point i was like 17 and my media literacy and love/skill for writing had grown a lot. the very first tiktok i made about byler was about how it doesn't make sense for the writers to build this up for so long just for it not to go anywhere, because it doesn't at all. and things just grew from there. i bled blue and yellow and i still do!

it was almost entirely heteronormativity keeping me from seeing byler earlier, so i talk about that a lot. because once you remove that, EVERYTHING makes perfect sense

[thranduel]

just so we’re clear, if the writers did NOT involve will and make him in love with mike since the start and then have the audacity to use him as a plot device to push mike into telling his girlfriend he loves her, i would be way less frustrated about that monologue. if their intention was to make mike and el a couple since the start until the end, and they were actually a well-written couple that eventually learned how to understand each other and communicate without using a traumatised gay kid as a plot device to “fix” their problems (which were not actually fixed), i would be fine with that, but that’s not what they did. will never, ever had to be shoved in the middle of their relationship and forced to watch them be lovey dovey together for several seasons in a row. it’s cruel, unnecessary and horrible writing if the outcome is just going to be the same as always: will has unrequited love and mike and el stay stuck together with no growth or development. mike and el DID have potential to be a wonderful, well-loved couple, but the writers miserably failed with that the moment they decided to involve another kid who has been through enough

[carmenilla]

incoming anti-milkvan rant but pro-elmike rant (and some byler mixed in there because you know me)

my rants aren’t very organized so i apologize :,)

mike and el haven’t been together since like the first season, and their relationship has been descending since then.

the most they’ve spent by each other’s side was in season three, and even then they were in a group setting like the whole time and it wasn’t them, together. also we’ve all seen the season three blocking. they are almost never next to each other

with will it’s the opposite. mike and will spent no time together in season 1, but spent 90% of the time together in both season 2 and season 4 (el was barely with mike in either of these seasons) and while season three had them be less of a pair, once again, the season three blocking comes in clutch and makes sure to pair mike with will in every group setting

they even spent the end of season 4 together. even after mike confessed his “love” for el. el and mike aren’t talking, they aren’t with each other, they’re not even paired together in the blocking of the final shot. (we all know who is, though.

when are mike and el ever together since they’ve been dating, excluding scenes that further the deterioration of their relationship? they’re barely together at all.

el continuously has a plot/subplot of coming into her own. being independent. not being defined by papa, or her dad, or mike (as max says in season three). obviously she wants to have a family and loved ones. she deserves to have that. she does have that - but that’s not going to be taken away or lessened by her standing on her own two legs without anyone else telling her how they want her to do so

all of this has been leading to a milkvan breakup. it’s been built up for multiple seasons now. they’ve laid the ground work. mike and el were best together and understood each other the most when they were friends.

notice how i didn’t say “just friends” - romantic relationships are not actually any stronger than friendship. just different. in fact, friendship is stronger, and while romance can heighten that (like with other pairings in the show) sometimes it just doesn’t (like with mike and el).

mike and el haven’t been friends for a while. like how people say “just friends”, they’re just dating. they’ve been doing this since they were so young and they’re still so young and they don’t understand the importance of the friendship aspect of romantic relationships. they only understand what girlfriend and boyfriend are supposed to do, and they can’t even try to do that without it all falling apart.

they need to be friends again. their relationship would be so much stronger. i miss their friendship. they were so sweet and so understanding and so good together when they were actually friends. a lot of couples are both friends and dating, especially in stranger things - look at lumax, my favorite example of this and why i love them so much. but mike and el aren’t. and they should be. they were best when they were

i fucking love elmike and there’s no chance of me getting them back if they keep trying to date each other “correctly” instead of, i don’t know, trying to be friends again. making genuine connections with each other. being true to the nature of their relationship. they are such friends, and maybe if they were friends and dating it would work out, but they’re not and it’s clear they’re not going to be. so if it’s one or the other, they should pick friends. they are amazing together as friends. they were always best as friends.

and then when we flip over to the byler side of things. mike and will have had a long time being friends. they’ve been friends, best friends, since kindergarten. in season 5, they’ll be in junior year, and they will have been best friends for ten years. they’ve had time to have their relationship develop, unlike mike and eleven. they are so clearly very good to each other and with each other as friends - but there is something grating on their relationship and friendship recently. something bubbling beneath the surface, making smooth sailing not so smooth.

yes, this is a metaphor for homosexuality. homosexuality is banging on their door. these bitches GAY. and it’s straining their friendship. they’re still friends, obviously, and they still want to be, but by ignoring this whole other piece of their relationship, they start fighting and misunderstanding each other for the first time in the history of their friendship. something clearly needs to change here.

when byler does become canon, there is zero doubt in my mind that they will still also be friends. that is the backbone and most important part of their relationship, and that is why their relationship will work. and that’s also 80% of the reason why i ship them, especially over milkvan, who just aren’t friends anymore like they were in s1.

something needs to change here in both mike and el’s relationship and mike and will’s. something that will benefit all these characters individually and their relationships. something that the creators have been laying the groundwork for for multiple seasons now. and i cannot wait to watch it happen. i love all three of these characters so much and i need them to get their happy ending

[butterflysonnets]

yes i'm rooting for m*leven breakup because byler is neat but mostly? i'm rooting for m*leven breakup for the sake of el and mike.

to me, their romance was always a puppy love born out of a combination of social pressures, naïve curiosity, and a lack of true understanding regarding intimacy and romantic love and what it really is. it was real in that they do truly, deeply care about each other and they are close friends, maybe even shared an attraction, but a maturing romance is so much more than that. they've grown up and out of being boyfriend/girlfriend, and that's okay! i think television/film needs to show more often that most of us don't have definite "soulmates" or first childhood loves that we spend our whole lives with. it doesn't mean these relationships meant nothing and didn't impact us, it just means they've run their course and that something else is in the cards, and this is part of life!

i've always felt el was at her best and most confident self when broken up with mike, discovering who she was and what she liked alongside another girl her age instead of just relying on mike for mentorship on how to live in the real world. she deserves more of an opportunity to find herself, her autonomy, and her independence, and to love who she is, and she's made it clear she's felt insecure in the relationship with mike because she isn't being loved and understood the way she wants, needs, and deserves from someone who is her partner.

also, it's okay if mike doesn't love her in "the way he should". he is not obligated to love her romantically and stay in a relationship with her just because she's a girl, because she "needed someone", or because he cares about her a lot. he shouldn't be pressured into a romance if it's not truly coming from his heart. he deserves freedom to find out and honour who he is, too, instead of just staying in his non-functional first relationship — one he got into as a child, essentially — and defining himself that way because it's what's expected when a boy and a girl are close. he loves her in some way, yes, but it's okay if he doesn't feel comfortable or secure being her boyfriend anymore, for whatever reason that is. he's felt insecure too, and that's valid and it matters.

they are their own people and are steadily growing and changing every day. they need time to figure out who those people are, and it's become clear (at least in my opinion) that those people aren't meant to be a couple at this stage.

they deserve freedom. they deserve to grow up and be authentic to themselves and not feel like they need to lie for the sake of a relationship. they deserve to move on from this version of their relationship that isn't making them happy and rekindle the best part of their bond: their strong, beautiful friendship. they don't have to be a couple if it doesn't make them stronger and better and happier people.

i think it would be healthy and wonderful for a show, especially one consumed frequently by young adults, to show a relationship starting, progressing, and ending on good terms in this way. sometimes things don't work out, and that is okay.

[skeletal-butterflyy]

Mike loves taking care of people. He loved taking of el in season one, and he loved taking care of will in season two, he loves feeling needed. He desperately wants to be the knight(paladin) that will sees him as. Mike and el love each other but not the way that mike and will do. Mike was only able to say he loves el because will told him that “el” would always need him no matter what:

Mike even says that he knows el doesn’t need him and that’s why they’re having problems. It isn’t mikes monologue that gets her out of Vecna’s vines, it’s max. We even see it in the last scene of s4 where el is separated from the rest of the group. She’s become independent, doesn’t need just mike, as a romantic interest, she’s not a damsel in distress. What she does need is the support of her friends and family.

You know who does need mike though? Will! He makes it clear through the painting and his monologue in the van scene, and we see how happy this makes mike, to know he really is needed. That’s why byler works.

[milevenstancyendgame]

Reasons why Mileven drama/breakup and Byler endgame in ST5 are unlikely

Looking at the whole show, we can see two constants regarding these relationships:

-Mike and El keep overcoming external and internal obstacles, and always end up together again

-Will's homosexuality is hinted at from the start, as well as his deep feelings for Mike.

Regarding the latter, this creates the expectation to have Will accept his own feelings and then his friends do the same.

In S4, it's clear that we got the first. Will's monologue didn't achieve the coming out, but he did express his love for Mike, albeit disguising it as El's feelings. He basically sacrificed himself in order to support Mike, who in turn was able to support El, who then managed to (barely) save Max.

Based on that, I think we have two possible scenarios for S5:

-Will won't confess his love to Mike openly. He has accepted that Mike and El love each other, and we see him having moved on from this right from the beginning of the season. His coming out as gay will still happen though, and Mike's acceptance of that will be crucial for Will.

-Will will confess to Mike that he's in love with him - I'm thinking of the close-up of his face during Mike's monologue in S4, when he says "And somehow I thought telling you how I felt would make that day hurt more." Will clearly feels the same way, but maybe hearing Mike confess this to El gives him the courage to confess it to Mike as well.

No matter which scenario we'll get, I think the focus will be on Mike's acceptance of Will's homosexuality, on him being different, but Mike making him feel better for it. It's possible that Mike might mess it up, not knowing what to say, but no doubt he will be accepting of Will's sexuality, and I think this will give power to Will to be freely himself (and maybe kick some butt).

However, from a storytelling perspective, I really don't see Mike suddenly realising he loves Will and not El. It would be extremely bad writing, because they have been telling us that Mike and El love each other since they first met in S1.

If they had not planned for them to be endgame, they would have sunken the ship already. There were plenty of opportunities. But what we got instead were relationship issues and them being able to work through these issues.

Mike not being very articulate at telling El how he feels about her has also been a constant since S1. However, this finally got resolved at the end of S4.

That's why I think that ST5 will start of with a strenghtened bond between them and their love won't be tested any more.

Mike finally told her how much he loves her, El has no more reason to doubt him. Mike doing a 180 degree turn and realising he lied to El would be equal to creating a new character for Mike. It also would spit on everything they took the pain to show us of Mike and El's love during the whole show.

From a storytelling perspective, this would be total self-sabotage. Why waste a whole series to tell viewers that two characters are in love and then saying "Surprise! It was a lie all along!"? What would be achieved by that?

If it had been their goal to show us that romantic feelings can change, then they would have had to tell a completely different story and would have sowed the seeds for doubt from the very beginning. Instead we got nothing but soulmatism for Mike and Eleven (including their relationship issues, because they overcame those).

Also, remember that this story is about defeating the big evil with love. El is the super-hero. Destroying her biggest source of power (love) would make it impossible for her to win against anyone.

Apart from all this, considering everything that needs to be wrapped up in S5, there simply is not enough time to have Will confess to Mike, Mike figuring out his new feelings, getting up the courage to tell El, the drama of breaking up the main ship of the show, have El get over it, establish Mike and Will as a couple, get all their friends' support, AND defeat Henry.

This is why they resolved Mike and El's conflict in S4. Because there won't even be time for their established relationship to have any drama. This is why they already showed us that Will accepts and supports Mike and El's love, so the love triangle situation has been resolved as well.

The only thing left to resolve is Will's coming out to his friends, which doesn't need to take up a lot of time. It could be one or two scenes.

[nothoughts-onlywomen]

Its so cool to have lumax as your main ship <3 what other st ships do u ship?

i do love them very much 😊 in my responses i have also linked to asks i've received on my other page about st ships and my (lengthy) answers!

canon st ships I enjoy other than lumax:

mileven

C'MON THEY'RE CUTE. don't crucify me over this, but I have always loved mileven as a ship. i want to make it clear that if byler becomes canon, i will support the narrative direction of the writers. but i do love mileven very much and i enjoy their arc. i think the evolution of mike loving el as she grows into her own independence is lovely.

rovickie

we haven't gotten to see them much yet, but i am absolutely chuffed at the prospect of more rovickie in s5. i have always wanted robin to finally kiss a girl and i'm so excited to see this become a reality. i think the biggest challenge for the duffers is going to be developing vickie as a separate character from robin. it will likely be tempting to make vickie a carbon copy of robin and she deserves better than that.

jancy

i think jonathan and nancy balance each other out very well. nancy is this tenacious, compassionate, bright flame that fights for what's right. jonathan is so much more mild-mannered and quiet but supportive and intelligent. i also love that they're best friends first.

jopper

i know not everyone likes hopper. i had a friend who hates him. but i think they're a good match because they're both tough and gritty, but vulnerable at the same time. also i think it's really positive that they're both divorcees, both had a rough time in life, and are finding love later in life. i think in popular media we're used to seeing romance with young and attractive people. not that they aren't attractive, but they aren't young or perfect. idk i just find their whole thing refreshing.

non-canon st ships i enjoy:

elmax

i don't think anything fruity will happen with elmax canonically since lumax seems to be the logical direction. but i ADORE their enemies-to-friends journey. they're so sweet together. max was really one of the first people to encourage el's independence and autonomy. max, who herself is less approachable, embraced el from day one and loved her wholly since. and it's clear by the end of s3 that el loves max too. i think s5 will see el and max reuniting and just hugging so hard.

ronance

since rovickie is in the chamber, i'm not sure ronance will happen canonically either. but i love the idea. before vickie came along, i kind of had my own little headcanon that if robin were to sacrifice herself for nancy, she would give her a single, meaningful kiss on the lips before doing so. i don't want robin to die or sacrifice her self, but in case it does happen, that's how i would want it to go.

thanks for the ask, message me again anytime! ❤️