#they would make it clear that mike and el love each other and that’s that

[chirpsythismorning]

Milkvans complaining about bylers not mentioning Finn’s response about about the monologue is so funny, as if it didn’t support byler endgame even more 🤣

Finn saying I think he knows she thinks all this, bc I think there’s a reason why he says it, is because she— she— he’s been waiting to say it for a long time and she’s been waiting for him to say it for a long time. I think it’s an interesting thought, having that reciprocated. Yeah I think so. I don’t… I don’t know. I would hope… idk… great question and thought tho…

Like he literally cuts himself off before implying that Mike knows how El feels and that she wanted him to say I love you for a while, which is the very reason why he said it in the first place, despite seasons of attempting to say it, stalling repeatedly, only to fail each time up until now when there was literally no option not to in his eyes…

How is that a milkvan win?…

Not only that, but he didn’t make it sound hopeful for their future either. It’s still up in the air according to him. He makes a point of just saying interesting question over and over, only to not actually come up with an answer…

The assumption for many viewers, specifically milkvans, is that everything is great for Mike and El right now bc the monologue fixed everything. If that’s the case why does Finn end that question on a sort of question mark with it still up in the air? Least of all when you’re dealing with a queer ship on the other end, with him making much more of an effort to imply that it will be addressed. It’ll pay off vs. idk?…

This is like the casts reaction to the monologue all over again. The interviewer asked about Mike and El’s future and Finn basically danced around it saying he’s looking forward to all of their endings and is mostly interested to know if Mike will stay in Hawkins, adding at the end that he hopes Mike and El you know, find… happiness.

He’s always giving answers that work both ways. Byler endgame still fits in with whatever he says, whether milkvans want to acknowledge that or not.

Otherwise there would be no reason for him to try so hard to be ambiguous about Mike and El’s feelings, as if it’s this big spoiler… unless what’s about to go down is something most the audience won’t expect…

[gardenfairie]

This question asked by a mileven to finn wolfhard might've been one of the best proofs bylers got today lmao.

There is so much to unpack here.

"What makes miIeven so strong?" — Finn didn't address this at all. Is their "love" really so strong if he can't easily speak on it? lol. Caleb was going on about how unconditional and forever lumax's love was today. Those were the words he used. And Noah went on and on about byler's bond at his last panel in 2024.

Instead of answering how their love is so strong, Finn starts talking about how romance was the last thing on Mike's mind when he met El. This easily kills the 'love at first sight' from the monologue, which is hilarious because the questioner is asking "how does Mike's monologue impact them after season 4". So not only did he ignore the question, but he also contradicts the monologue that the questioner wants to hear more about, not once, but THREE TIMES 😭😭😭

"I dont think romance was on his mind even when he initially found eleven" "didn't perceive himself to be in any romantic relationship" "that wasn't even on his mind"

Next he's comparing el to ET: the least romantic dynamic ever. ET is an alien that a boy named elliot takes care of. So apparently that's how Mike initially saw El— like a pet he had to take care of. (This is not news and has been said multiple times by the duffers and finn by the way). Oh and ET says goodbye and leaves at the end of the movie.

"relationship with a lot of people", "feelings towards someone" — Keeping it gender neutral I see :))

"first love", "that relationship is his first romantic feelings for someone" — Usually people signify the relationship being a first because it's not the LAST either *chuckles*. Interesting how finn doesn't say anything like "that relationship is his ONLY romantic feelings towards someone" if he wanted to emphasize how deeply in love they are like how the questioner so clearly wanted him to lol

"going into season 5", "still a couple going into it" — So he said not once but twice "going into..." He seems to want to make it really clear he's ONLY referring to the beginning of the season and nothing else, because it's literal common sense. mike and el ended off season 4 together, so yeah no fucking duh they're starting off season 5 together?? Like what lol.

"that's all I can say about 5" — So zero indication that Mileven are still together in the middle, or the end, or anywhere beyond the start of season 5.

Now what would be a better more pro-mileven response to this question? Probably something like this (I'm essentially taking stuff Noah and Caleb have said about byler and lumax and mashing them together):

The romantic relationship between Mike and El is a foundational element of stranger things. What makes them so strong and how does Mike’s confession impact them after season 4?

I think what makes Mike and El so strong is their unconditional love and connection with each other, just as what Mike's confession showed. I can't give spoilers about season 5, but I'm just excited for you guys to see it. Like I think all throughout the seasons, I have have so many great scenes with millie. I can't spoil anything but Mike and El's relationship has been so important all throughout, and you'll see what they will face in season 5.

[thranduel]

if byler isn't endgame...

what was the point of making will in love with mike?

why was will used as a plot device to force mike and el back together and "fix" their relationship issues? (the writers literally took his OWN feelings for mike and his OWN painting for mike that was supposed to be something special between them only and made it all about... el? this is genuinely one of the most cruel, ridiculous and unnecessary writing decisions i've ever seen if it doesn't result in will getting the person he loves)

why did they clearly highlight the contrast between byler and m*leven's relationships all season? how mike makes el feel like a monster for being different vs how he does NOT make will feel like a mistake for being different? how mike and el had the biggest fight after mike apologised vs how mike and will made up and ended up closer than before after mike apologised? how mike and el don't have healthy communication and struggle to understand each other vs how mike and will always have genuine heart-to-heart conversations, understand each other so well and sometimes don't even have to say any words? how mike feels insecure in his relationship with el and has his trauma/feelings invalidated vs how will manages to always make him feel special, confident and gives him strength when he's struggling and needs help?

why are there so many parallels and similarities between will and el as individual characters AND also their relationships with mike?

why is mike's relationship with will different from all his other platonic friends? (and don't just say "because will is in love with him", because in some scenes, MIKE is the one who initiates things and goes out of his way for will. which reminds me, you know how everyone says mike does so many romantic things for el? like not giving up on her when she's missing, taking care of her, being protective over her, etc.? he actually did all of those things for will first)

why did mike vent to will about his fight with el (the fight he claims they "can't come back from") without directly saying what the fight was about? all he said was "maybe i should've said something... and if i would've said that thing, then maybe she'd want me there with her." so... you're venting to your friend and you can't even specify that your big fight was about not being able to say "i love you"? why was it kept so secretive if you truly love her and it's no big deal? you've said you love her in front of a group of people before anyways, even when will was there, so why can't you even say the words to him while venting?

why did mike vent to will (again) and say that if he would've explained himself to el, maybe she would've taken him with her? will says he thinks it's scary to open up like that, to say how you really feel, but shouldn't mike and el already know how they both feel about each other at this point? el heard mike say he loved her in season 3, and at the end of the same season, she said "i love you too" before kissing him. they have kissed a lot, sent letters to each other and do lovey dovey things, which should make their feelings quite clear?????

and what was the point of this line from will?

"because... what if... what if they don't like the truth?"

we're supposed to be talking about el here. sure, will was subtly speaking about himself, and we know that as the audience. but mike doesn't. this conversation is about el, so mike still thinks will is talking about her. why on earth would he NOD after will says the part about how she might not like the truth? mike knows that "the truth" she WANTS to hear is "i love you", so why wouldn't she like the truth? why did mike nod at what will said and why did he agree with him? what is actually even happening in this scene??????????????

why did they make all the canon couples stand together in the final shot of season 4, with mike and will standing together too?

what was the point of ANY of this if they weren't planning on making byler endgame?!?!?!?!?!

[thebylertheory]

"If you think El doesn't need to end the show in a relationship and she can be happy without one, then that goes for Will too" here's why you're wrong.

The reason why it's different for Will, whether you like it or not, IS because of his sexuality. Homophobia and Will's belief that he'll never find romantic love because of him being gay is a core part of his character. Romantic love, or the lack thereof, has been an important part of his story for at least the past two seasons. He already has an abundance of love from his friends and family. He's not lacking on that part. But he wants romantic love. That is what he desires. They have made that clear. And they have gone out of their way to show us that he wants that with MIKE. And they have even taken it a step further and shown us why Mike and Will would be good together. They bring out the best in each other and they make one another feel good about themselves. So, for them to do all of that and then end the show by reaffirming Will's belief that he was right and he's never going to find love because he's gay is a very cruel and pointless ending for his character. He has suffered enough. He should be allowed to end the show with the boy he loves and believing that he's worthy of that type of love. He deserves to have the relationship he's always wanted and thought he would never have.

Romantic love has never been an important part of El's story. Since season 1, she has been trying to find a family/home and she has been trying to find out who she is in a world she was isolated from since birth. That is the most important part of her story and character. Her relationship with Mike has never been the main focus. In fact, she does better and she thrives more and she sees the most development as a person when her and Mike are separated. They have shown us that their relationship holds her back and that they're not good for each other. They don't make each other feel loved or good about themselves. Now, that's not to say I don't think El should EVER be in a relationship. She can! But a romantic relationship, especially one with Mike, is not as important to her story as it is to Will's. In fact, a relationship with Mike has done more bad than good for her. She doesn't NEED romantic love or a relationship with Mike for her happy ending. Her happy ending can consist of her just being able to live comfortably with her family and knowing who she is and feeling confident in her identity. That ending is what will be the most fulfilling for her character.

[strangelysilver]

He does NOT like Will? It's clear as glass never looked at Will with love, only happiness, meanwhile you have the MILEVEN pizzeria scene and the van scene, he CLEARLY looks at Will that way because of EL

Look, Mike's gazes with Will or El can be as romantic or platonic as you want to interpret them. I personally don't really use facial expressions as proof towards a ship. They're more of a fun, cute thing to make GIF sets of.

What DOES convince me of a ship is when the narrative arcs of a story are set up in a way that only makes sense if that ship is endgame. And that's what I think Byler has.

Will's painting lie is a Chekhov's gun.

Will pushing Mike and El together makes him a Cyrano.

Mike's odd behavior towards Will has to be addressed, and there are not many plot reasons why a guy might be suddenly hesitant to express affection to his childhood best friend.

Mike saying "we're friends, we're friends" when Will wasn't implying anything more is potentially one of the most common romance tropes of all time.

Season 4 ends with Mike and Will promising each other to work as a team, and then the final shot shows them paired up alongside the show's canon couples.

El wants to feel normal, and Mike views her as a superhero. Mike wants to feel needed, and El's journey throughout the series has been to become independent and to develop herself from a lab kid with no sense of self into someone SHE wants to be, not what someone else wants her to be.

Will is in love with MIKE. It's not just that he's gay and afraid that his best friend will shun him for it, it's specifically written that he's in love with Mike. The writers didn't need to do that if just wanted the conflict to be Mike potentially being homophobic.

Going back to the painting, letting a gay kid successfully sacrifice his feelings to push a straight relationship together is a terrible message in a show about social outcasts and rejects.

Usually, a heartfelt confession of love is used to dramatically save the day. But Mike's big monologue... didn't. The ending of Season 4 is simply not what you would expect after one of those kinds of world-saving love speeches.

Mike and El are not talking after the monologue. Why would this be true, if the monologue was the major turning point in their relationship? Narratively, it should have brought them closer together, but it didn't.

El says that Mike makes her feel like a monster, that he thinks she's a monster. Will says that Mike makes him feel like less of a mistake, like maybe he isn't one.

Sorry, I have to mention the monologue again. As you mentioned, Mike looks happy with El when they're at the pizza place-- they're talking and laughing. So why is it that after the monologue, after Mike finally tells her what she has been begging for him to say for half a season, El is no longer talking to him?

The audience KNOWS that Mike isn't homophobic. There is an entire scene in Season 1 where he shoves one of his bullies in front of the entire school, despite knowing that he's going to suffer for it, because the bully was making fun of Will by calling him queer. So why else has there been so much build up around Will's inevitable coming out? Like I said earlier, this is compounded by the fact that Will is specifically and intentionally in love with Mike. Why make it such a huge plot thread?

This is already way too long, so I'll cut it there. But I hope I made it clear that it's not the glances or the plentiful parallels to canon couples or the scene direction (though there is some compelling and interesting evidence in that area) that convinced me of Byler happening. There is no debating that Byler's relationship has been built up for three seasons, but I wasn't even a romantic Byler believer until I watched Season 4. It was Season 4 that made me realize that there is no other satisfying narrative ending.

[boyfriendsmalec]

The Stranger Things ending being "bittersweet" isn't necessarily a bad thing

We already know how attached the Duffers are to their characters. They've refused to kill any of the core cast off, despite calls from fans and even the cast itself to kill off more of the characters. They have even said Hawkins is not like "Game of Thrones." They have a clear attachment to their characters and it's been stated repeatedly that they intend to give fulfilling arcs for their characters, wanting them all to have narratively satisfying conclusions (as Noah has stated when talking about how he's happy with Will's ending).

This doesn't mean, of course, that the ending will be entirely happy.

Now I'm going to delve a bit into spoilers/leaks we got so please look away now if you don't want to see those.

We know from leaks that the core younger cast all survives to graduation, as well as them having scenes at a bar with much of the older cast. I believe one of the only cast members that wasn't at these scenes was Millie (El).

Now I don't think El is going to die. I think that would send a bad message killing off your core female character who's never been able to live a 'normal' life (not to mention all the trauma and suffering she's endured). And I don't think the Duffers have it in them to give El a tragic ending.

I do believe El's ending will be "happy" for her by allowing her to complete her narrative arc of attaining full independence, allowing her to discover who she is and wants to be. I do wish El would stick around with her found family, but I do feel that she may be separated from them in the end. Not necessarily permanently though, and I think it'll be on her own terms. It could be that El believes she has to go revitalize/clean up the Upside Down after Vecna's downfall. Or maybe El is still in our world, but simply living outside of Hawkins, establishing who she is separately from her friends and discover more of the wider world.

Also I want to make clear I'm not saying this is the ending I want for El. This is mere speculation on my part. But the repetition of Finn talking about El is like "E.T." and the hints in the show of El being like a "different species" or "not from this planet" makes me wonder if she will end up going off in the end, forging her own path.

We also know from Millie that she's not entirely happy about El's ending. She's even said she's bounced around in her opinions of Season 5 as it was being filmed, and has been very quiet on the topic of Mike and El's relationship since Season 5 has been filmed.

I am admittedly a bit worried about El's ending, but I'm hoping the execution of it will be done well.

Meanwhile Noah has expressed a great happiness for Will's ending and Finn has overall said he's happy while there's some "sadness" too. And I think it would be reasonable for Mike's character to be sad for El to leave, even if they're friends. He still cares a great deal for her. If you go by the bisexual Mike interpretation then she would've been his "first love" and even if you interpret Mike as gay, she would still be someone he cares for very deeply. And I think it would be nice to see more of a platonic male/female dynamic on-screen and how his care for her doesn't just vanish because they don't feel romantic towards each other. Like just think of Robin and Steve here, wouldn't either one of them be devastated at losing the other?

But I don't think it's El possibly leaving that could be the only reason the cast keeps talking about the ending being "bittersweet."

In the epilogue I believe we'll see the characters come together again, before all of them start to separate for their new journeys ahead. They will likely split up to go to college in different areas of the country. I think that the endgame couples will stick together (e.g. Mike and Will go to a college together in an East Coast city, Lucas and Max go to college together in California, Dustin goes off with Suzie or by himself to a separate university). Perhaps some friends will stick together (e.g. Steve and Robin) but I believe a lot of the group will be fragmented and split apart in the end, simply due to life circumstances.

This is a typical ending we see at the end of fantasy/adventure movies. After the characters defeat the "Big Bad" they often go their separate ways, stronger for the friendships they've forged, happier and richer for the experiences they've had together.

And I think this may be the "bittersweet" aspects the cast talks about. Because while there is a happiness to it, it stings a bit knowing this is the end of the show and the characters will never be together in the same way they once were.

I mean it's possible at the ending, maybe even Joyce and Hopper and the rest will permanently decide to leave Hawkins. Who knows? I could see all of them permanently leaving Hawkins as being incredibly bittersweet.

There's so many other reasons the cast could be referencing the ending as "bittersweet." But I don't think it'll be about the deaths of any major characters (though I'm sure side characters will die, and I also think Murray may be one of the more "major" members of the cast to die). I think it's very likely someone in the Wheeler family will die (Karen or Ted or Holly) which could also lead to Finn saying there's "sadness" in his character's arc. We know Mike is quite close to Karen and we'll see more of his relationship with his sister Holly, so if he loses either of them that will feel incredibly tragic.

But ultimately the Duffers care too much about their main characters to kill them off, and I believe they will give them satisfying conclusions, even if the main cast of characters aren't all together in the end.

[willthewiz]

Jonathan Capturing the Right Moment

In this scene, Jonathan says he'd rather observe people than talk to them. And then says:

“People don’t really say what they're really thinking. When you capture the right moment, it says more.”

We'll get back to that later.

Here is Jonathan in season 4:

In the van scene, the camera only cuts to Jonathan when Will is telling a lie. Remember, Jonathan said people don't say what they're really thinking (the truth). But he captured the right moment, when it says more. Jonathan knows what Will is actually saying are his feelings not El's.

Will tells Mike that El told him what to draw. Then the camera cuts right to Jonathan. When he knows Will painted it and El didn't know what it was or who it was for.

Will: "I mean, without heart we'd all fall apart. Even El, especially El."

Then it cuts to Mike then Jonathan. Again, Jonathan knows this is about Will, not El. He's capturing these moments.

Will continues to lie and we once again, cut to Jonathan.

Here is more of Jonathan:

Mike: "But I am scared that one day you'll realize you don't need me anymore. And I thought that if I said how I felt it would somehow make that day hurt more."

We cut to Will and then Jonathan.

“People don’t really say what they're really thinking. When you capture the right moment, it says more.”

"But I am scared that one day you'll realize you don't need me anymore. And I thought that if I said how I felt it would somehow make that day hurt more."

Mike's fear & reason for not telling El he loves her:

What he thinks would happen:

Mike says I love you to El

One day, El realizes she doesn't need him anymore

That day hurts because she doesn't need him even though he loves her

El WANTED Mike to tell her that he loved her, but he didn't say it because he was afraid of losing her??

If Mike told El that he loved her, why would he still have doubts that she wouldn't need him??

Because Mike doesn't love her romantically and he's scared that if she knew, she wouldn't need him anymore. But that's just not true.

Jonathan is observing him in this scene. In previous scenes, Will is lying to Mike. Will isn't saying what he's really thinking (the truth to Mike). But Jonathan captures those specific moments, those lies. He sees through them and they become something more. The truth. Will is confessing his feelings for Mike through El.

In this scene, Mike is lying to El. Mike isn't saying what he's really thinking (the truth to El). But Jonathan captures this particular moment. This moment is when he sees through Mike's lies. He sees the truth. Mike is confessing his real feelings. He's saying that he isn't in love her and he's scared to lose her because of that. He's saying that the whole reason why he didn't tell her he loved her is because he's scared El wouldn't need him anymore.

Again, if Mike told El that he loved her, why would he think El wouldn't need him anymore? Why is he so scared that one day she'll come to this realization? Hm... I wonder...

Mike doesn't love El romantically, but he needs her. They will always need each other. And, I think, in season 5, Mike will realize that El will always need him and that they don't need to be in love with one another to stay with one another. Mike wouldn't lose her just because they're not together as a couple anymore.

--------------

Idk if any of this made sense or not. Not really sure about the whole Jonathan thing, but it is clear that he observes Will (and people in general) and knows he loves Mike. I just thought that what Jonathan said is interesting. Is this the shows way of saying that characters don't always mean what they say? Maybe...

I don't know anything about film, so don't take this seriously. I have no idea what I'm doing, I'm just bored and very sleep deprived.

Let me know what you think:)

[love-byers]

this is weaponized incompetence at this point holy fuck

"he didn't think having his mom help her get home meant never seeing her again"

WHAT ELSE IS THIS SUPPOSED TO MEAN?? WAS HE GOING TO MAKE SCHEDULED VISITS TO PENNHURST TO SEE HER????

he wasn't concerned with where she came from, he just wanted her out of the way so they could go out looking for will again. "We'll be totally in the clear! And tomorrow night, we go back out. And this time, we find Will."

and yes of COURSE mike wanted her to be home safe. he's a fucking nice person and she was a cold, lost, scared kid. he wanted to make sure she got taken care of and back home safe, and he was gonna focus on finding will again. and i don't know why they think him letting her stay bc she was in danger means he's in love with her. she said bad people were trying to kill her of course he let her stay😭😭 that doesn't indicate romantic love though. and later when dustin and lucas were getting on mike for not going through with the original plan he tells them she needs to stay because she knows will and she knows how to find him, and that the bad people after her might be the same people who took will. no one is trying to say he didn't care about her, but if what he did for el indicates romantic love then he's 1000% in love with will too lmfao

and keep in mind this whole time mike is supposed to KNOW he's in love with her, his words not mine. he's supposedly in love when he says "She'll send her back to Pennhurst or wherever she comes from" ??

and again, no one is trying to say mike hated el or didnt care about her or anything like that. mike was a child doing the best he could in that situation, he wanted to find will and help el. but mike himself claims he had already crossed the line into PURE ROMANTIC LOVE and KNEW IT. if that was the case then he would not be saying those things, he just wouldn't. in stranger things we are shown that characters love each other by their careful attentive behavior towards each other and their desire to stay together as a team, and they take time to get to that point, they need to develop. this is why love at first sight just does not work as a label for mike and el's relationship. mikes behavior does not indicate that at all. you'd have to bend and twist and reach in order to make it make sense (when it still wouldn't anyway), and THAT my friend is 10x more delulu than anything bylers say lol

can s5 come out already so we can be done with this shit

[miwiheroes]

Dropping Byler Evidence Every Day Until Season 5

. ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁ Day 5: Byler parallels with Jopper and Lumax . ݁₊ ⊹ . ݁˖ . ݁

Decided to combine Jopper and Lumax into one post because a lot of them are similar and would actually be more compelling if they were all combined, being that Jopper and Lumax are definitely endgame (they arent in any love triangles or anything)

So again, I'm gonna name the parallel and how intentional it may be. Even if it's not fully intentional as a complete parallel, this still counts as evidence because using the same tropes for Lumax and Jopper as Byler means that they are all romantic.

1. I Lost You

The fact that Byler and Lumax's ones are in the same episode oh my god???? I honestly think this is intentional. While the 'I thought I lost you' thing is common in romantic tropes, to use it for three couples is very much insane and they must have noticed this. Putting the two in the same episode as well..... oh my god

2. Holding Hands

I think that the fact its a parallel is not intentional, but hand holding is just very very common as a romantic trope. It's also the truth that they actually create a separate SHOT for each of these moments too, to signify their importance.

3. A Team

(couldnt find a good screenshot with a caption for byler but there is alt text)

If you want two people to have believable chemistry, you make them work together well. It was never explicitly stated that Jancy were a good team, but you could tell. HOWEVER THIS IS JUST EXPLICIT they are spelling it out for u!!! Mike and El never really work together. They are a couple. But they aren't a team. They don't work together on plans, there's never any back and forth planning (like with byler in s3), and once again, it's never ever acknowledged by either of them that they work well together as a team.

4. On the Bus

Both heart-to-heart scenes use this song behind it:

Oh this is highly highly intentional. You do not just use romantic, TENDER EMOTIONAL music for one couple who are definitely romantic, and then put that in the background of a platonic scene. The creators are literally screaming at u guys here <3 THIS IS SUPPOSED TO BE ROMANTICCC HELLO

(also both these scenes end with them smiling at the other and they get interrupted by a noise before anything else can happen)

5. We have to kill it

Sorry guys i totally forgot to include this one in the Jancy parallel post but literally fucking LOOK!! This is intentional to me because it is very specific, and if it's an accident that they all want to kill something and the other one agrees, then it still shows that these couples have chemistry because they are on the same page. AND one of them is reassuring the other, foreshadowing that they are gonna be a team in the next season.

Jancy are a team in season 2 after they have this convo in season 1, and Jopper are a team in season 3 after having this convo in season 2. So byler will be a team in season 5.

6. Staying in the Hospital

Honestly this one's just cute, and recontextualises the fact that Mike peers over Will on the bed, and stays by him (even though it doesnt really need recontextualising). The fact that its very romantic and cute for Lumax to do it should mean the exact same thing for Mike to do it.

7. Looking longingly at someone who's pulling away

erm this one is just so clear to me. Not exactly intentional but like- the thing with staring at someone longingly just to have them not look back at you is very slow burn romance. The fact that it's very obvious to ppl that Max is definitely aware of Lucas staring at her, but can't stare back because she's afraid to hurt him/ afraid to show her feelings again definitely parallels Mike too.

Also both Lucas and Max SIGH before going back to what they're doing...

8. TENDER EMOTIONAL MUSIC

so a tender emotional music scene for jopper makes it feel romantic:

Sooooo.... doesn't that mean that it applies for byler too?? Who had it done to them not one, not two, but THREE TIMES IN SEASON 4???

AND LUMAX HAS A SCENE WITH THIS TOO

Thanks for reading yet another long ass post :))) The next ones probably going to be Rovickie parallels because they actually have so many after doing my research so yeah

[isitisitearlymichael]

Constantly seeing people trying to call any speculation about Will & Mike delusional and making out it’s a non-story. Taking away any expectations for season 5, this bothers me for several reasons:

1. The situation is constantly being compared to non-canon ships that people just liked the idea of in the past. In this situation, the show has specifically told us that Will has feelings for Mike, and that is the reason why we are discussing them as a possibility. It is incredibly rare for a non-canon ship to actually be in this situation.

2. If the show never intended to set up Will and Mike as a potential future couple, maybe you shouldn't be blaming the hundreds of thousands of fans who felt that way after watching, and should instead be discussing how this storyline has been mishandled by the showrunners.

3. The constant insistence that the pair getting together would be "unrealistic" for the time period or show in general is utterly hilarious when we're talking about a show called Stranger Things, and Mike's other love interest is a lab born shaven-haired girl with powers. That's definitely realistic for the time!

4. The refusal to take into account time jumps and understand that we're not just expecting Mike to jump from one relationship to another. This also applies to the comments about how a single season is not enough time to develop a new relationship.

5. The failure to recognise that El and Mike have only actually been in a relationship for around 15 months, and at least 6 months of that time they were in a long-distance relationship. Viewers talk about them like they've been together for years simply because of the breaks between seasons. The relationship really isn't that deep at all and they've barely had time to get to know each other properly. We know more about El than Mike does.

6. Finally, the insistence that the storyline has nowhere to go in season 5, despite the fact Mike has yet to discover the truth about Will's feelings, the painting and his speech. Season 4 also promised us that Will and Mike are going to kill Vecna together. In fact, so much of the epilogue was around the boys and hinting that they'd be sticking together throughout season 5. it's clear that we're getting a lot more from them, no matter what.

[starlight-bread-blog]

Okay I'm gonna go full conspiracy, but some of y'all are way worse so I'm doing this. Listen up. Will Byers and Mike Wheeler are fictional characters. Meaning, that everything they do, everything they think and yes, everything they feel has a purpose. So let's look at the facts as they are. Mike couldn't tell El that he loves her, and Will is in love with Mike. Right off the bat, with Will, this fact could lead to two things:

Mike is also in love with Will, and there will be a love triangle with Mike in the middle.

Mike is not in love with Will, and Will will either end up alone, or die, or find another queer boy to love.

With scenario 1, everything is fine. But although on paper, scenario 2 makes sense, we should take into account that everything that Will feels is a carefully thought out decision.

Let's remember the themes and the message of Stranger Things. This show is about the freaks of society, the losers, the outcasts. How people may l give them the side eye, but they have each other. And they'll stand by each other no matter what. So, how does this relate to Will and Mike? Will is a gay boy in the 80s, which not only makes him an outcast, but an outright freak in the eyes of the public. It would go against Stranger Things' message to write a freak trying to find love in his best friend, the one who's supposed to be by his side forever, and having him rejected. In real life, this would not be a problem. If someone is straight, they're straight. But in fiction, the sexuality and or love interest of a character is again, a choice with ramification on the quality of the story. And writing Will, a "freak", having his heart broken by someone who he considered another freak, when you're telling a story about how freaks empower each other by sticking together, is not a smart writing decision.

(There is also the matter of the van scene, where Will's supposedly unrequited feelings are being used to repair El and Mike's relationship, as Will cries over not being able to be with Mike. In other words, if Mike isn't in love with Will, the outcast's suffering is used to fix what's more socially acceptable. Do you see the problem? I don't know how many times I'm going to repeat myself in this post, and I hope it's not getting annoying, but I need to make this as crystal clear as possible: Fiction is not real life. In real life, a gay boy could use some words of affirmation regardless of how they feel, it's just being nice. But in fiction, you have a job to do. You have a story to tell. You have a message you want to put out into the world. And this scene is not compatible with the message).

But let's look at Mike. In season 4, El confronts Mike about him not telling her that he loves her. And throughout that whole scene, not even once, does he just say that he loves her. In the end he does, but the reason as to why he stopped saying it, or why he didn't say it when she confronted him, is never explained. In real life, it's okay if Mike wants to deal with whatever he feels and the reasons behind it with himself. But this is not real life, this was deliberately written to be understood by an audience. It was written to serve a purpose. Mike not being able to tell El that he loves her was a serious conflict in season 4, and the cause behind it is left unknown. This is bad writing, plain and simple. Unless, there is some other factor we are not yet aware of. Unless, he could possibly have feelings for someone else. Maybe that someone is Will.

With that theory in mind, remember when Will and Mike met after a long time of not seeing each other? Will was gonna hug Mike, but Mike just went for a fist bump. There was a very awkward atmosphere in that moment. Why would there be? Once again, I'm not talking about real life. In real life, it could just be awkward because they haven't talked to each other in a while and Mike needs time to adjust. But this is fiction. Every emotion has a purpose, every bit leads to something. And so far, it led to nothing. There was just one awkward moment, with no explanation, and it's never brought up again. There is no reason for it to be there. It's common knowledge that unnecessary story bits shouldn't make it to the final cut. If this wouldn't be expanded upon in some way, it'd be bad writing. It wouldn't be the worst thing to ever happen, but combined with him not being able to tell El that he loves her, it's all very confusing to say the least. But the story is not over, and maybe, all will be explained. And just maybe, that awkwardness could be described as tension between the two. Maybe Mike is in love with Will. That would be the most logical explanation.

[faelorelia]

It’s more unrealistic for Will to get over Mike than for Mike to reciprocate Will’s feelings.

Why? Because this is a fictional story. In real life, it’s common for someone to have to move on from their first love, no matter how painful it is – that’s reality, and no one argues with that.

But this doesn’t apply to a fictional setting where the creators have deliberately emphasized a unique, deep bond between two characters. They’ve singled them out from the group, placed them in heartfelt, romantically coded one-on-one scenes, had them say incredibly sweet things to each other, and shown them going above and beyond for one another. On top of that, one of them has been confirmed to be in love with the other – and that person is one of the most traumatized characters in the show, someone who never seems to catch a break.

How can anyone argue that it would be good for Will to end up with a random NPC he hasn’t even interacted with yet, just to give him “someone”? What would that mean? “Poor gay boy, you can’t have the love of your life, the person you sacrificed your feelings for to make him happy – that’s too good for you. Here, take this character we introduced last-minute to avoid queerbaiting allegations and prove we haven’t forgotten about you.” Is that really what people want for Will? For him to not be rewarded for everything he’s endured?

I’m not claiming to know what the writers have planned or how the show will end. But if they give Will a last-minute love interest just to avoid leaving him single, it will be a complete disservice to his character and an insult to fans who resonate with his experiences.

And it’s not like it’s clear that Mike doesn’t feel the same. In fact, there are countless moments where Mike looks just as in love with Will as Will is with him. Here are just a few examples.

There are also moments of Mike acting “weird” that don’t add up when considered together:

• His lack of response to El’s kiss at the end of S3, along with how he seemed distant and not fully invested during their S4 reunion and their Rink-O-Mania “date”.

• His inability to say “I love you” to El, and his visible struggle with the topic throughout S4, suggesting there’s more to it than meets the eye.

• His inability to balance his relationships with El and Will.

• His constant feelings of inferiority with El, contrasted with how uplifted and himself he feels with Will.

• Him clearly viewing Will differently from his other friends – saying things with romantic undertones, acting differently with him (like one might act with their love interest). And yes, he’s looked at Will’s lips a few times (more than Will has).

To dismiss the possibility of Byler and get mad at those who connect these dots is ignorant and narrow-minded. To call us crazy and delusional is disrespectful. And to claim that “Stranger Things” – a show about nerds and outcasts – would never give us a touching gay love story because it’s “too mainstream” is to completely misunderstand its themes and core message.

[teambyler]

Byler wouldn't be "straightbaiting"

When Byler becomes canon, I can already see the accusations:

"We've been straightbaited by this show TWICE!" (Referring to Robin being gay after being a possible love interest for Steve.)

But this isn't about keeping "score" between the gays and the straights. It's about what makes sense for the characters.

Steve thought he and Robin would make a great ROMANTIC COUPLE, but as it turns out not only is she gay but he's also has needed a BEST FRIEND outside the "popular crowd" he's grown out of. (In retrospect, it was also clear that Steve wasn't really into her sexually but liked her as a good friend.) And Robin has needed someone she can come out to and talk to about girls:

Mike and Will, meanwhile, are BEST FRIENDS, but they'll actually become, well, you know...

Mike and Will are the same thing, in reverse. They have all the same nerd interests. But Mike also feels inadequate in his relationship. He needs someone who sees him as a hero. Will has felt the deepest love for Mike after all Mike's done to help him. They give what the other person needs.

"Straightbaiting" would be the show building up a straight romantic couple as something that makes sense for everyone involved, then pulling the rug out from under them to cater to mass-market pressure (which let's be real doesn't exist for LGBT+ couples since most viewers relate more to straight relationships).

Nope! If Byler plays out, it wouldn't be "straightbaiting." It would be be "Mike- and Will-serving."

People who yell "straightbaiting" really just have a problem because Byler would be the first time two MAIN CHARACTERS got in a same-sex relationship with each other, in a show that already has had FIVE heterosexual pairings: Nancy/Steve, Mike/El, Nancy/Jonathan, Lucas/Max, and Joyce/Hopper. They just want straight people to have a monopoly on representation (again).

-teambyler

[milevenstancyendgame]

Reasons why Mileven drama/breakup and Byler endgame in ST5 are unlikely

Looking at the whole show, we can see two constants regarding these relationships:

-Mike and El keep overcoming external and internal obstacles, and always end up together again

-Will's homosexuality is hinted at from the start, as well as his deep feelings for Mike.

Regarding the latter, this creates the expectation to have Will accept his own feelings and then his friends do the same.

In S4, it's clear that we got the first. Will's monologue didn't achieve the coming out, but he did express his love for Mike, albeit disguising it as El's feelings. He basically sacrificed himself in order to support Mike, who in turn was able to support El, who then managed to (barely) save Max.

Based on that, I think we have two possible scenarios for S5:

-Will won't confess his love to Mike openly. He has accepted that Mike and El love each other, and we see him having moved on from this right from the beginning of the season. His coming out as gay will still happen though, and Mike's acceptance of that will be crucial for Will.

-Will will confess to Mike that he's in love with him - I'm thinking of the close-up of his face during Mike's monologue in S4, when he says "And somehow I thought telling you how I felt would make that day hurt more." Will clearly feels the same way, but maybe hearing Mike confess this to El gives him the courage to confess it to Mike as well.

No matter which scenario we'll get, I think the focus will be on Mike's acceptance of Will's homosexuality, on him being different, but Mike making him feel better for it. It's possible that Mike might mess it up, not knowing what to say, but no doubt he will be accepting of Will's sexuality, and I think this will give power to Will to be freely himself (and maybe kick some butt).

However, from a storytelling perspective, I really don't see Mike suddenly realising he loves Will and not El. It would be extremely bad writing, because they have been telling us that Mike and El love each other since they first met in S1.

If they had not planned for them to be endgame, they would have sunken the ship already. There were plenty of opportunities. But what we got instead were relationship issues and them being able to work through these issues.

Mike not being very articulate at telling El how he feels about her has also been a constant since S1. However, this finally got resolved at the end of S4.

That's why I think that ST5 will start of with a strenghtened bond between them and their love won't be tested any more.

Mike finally told her how much he loves her, El has no more reason to doubt him. Mike doing a 180 degree turn and realising he lied to El would be equal to creating a new character for Mike. It also would spit on everything they took the pain to show us of Mike and El's love during the whole show.

From a storytelling perspective, this would be total self-sabotage. Why waste a whole series to tell viewers that two characters are in love and then saying "Surprise! It was a lie all along!"? What would be achieved by that?

If it had been their goal to show us that romantic feelings can change, then they would have had to tell a completely different story and would have sowed the seeds for doubt from the very beginning. Instead we got nothing but soulmatism for Mike and Eleven (including their relationship issues, because they overcame those).

Also, remember that this story is about defeating the big evil with love. El is the super-hero. Destroying her biggest source of power (love) would make it impossible for her to win against anyone.

Apart from all this, considering everything that needs to be wrapped up in S5, there simply is not enough time to have Will confess to Mike, Mike figuring out his new feelings, getting up the courage to tell El, the drama of breaking up the main ship of the show, have El get over it, establish Mike and Will as a couple, get all their friends' support, AND defeat Henry.

This is why they resolved Mike and El's conflict in S4. Because there won't even be time for their established relationship to have any drama. This is why they already showed us that Will accepts and supports Mike and El's love, so the love triangle situation has been resolved as well.

The only thing left to resolve is Will's coming out to his friends, which doesn't need to take up a lot of time. It could be one or two scenes.

[carmenilla]

incoming anti-milkvan rant but pro-elmike rant (and some byler mixed in there because you know me)

my rants aren’t very organized so i apologize :,)

mike and el haven’t been together since like the first season, and their relationship has been descending since then.

the most they’ve spent by each other’s side was in season three, and even then they were in a group setting like the whole time and it wasn’t them, together. also we’ve all seen the season three blocking. they are almost never next to each other

with will it’s the opposite. mike and will spent no time together in season 1, but spent 90% of the time together in both season 2 and season 4 (el was barely with mike in either of these seasons) and while season three had them be less of a pair, once again, the season three blocking comes in clutch and makes sure to pair mike with will in every group setting

they even spent the end of season 4 together. even after mike confessed his “love” for el. el and mike aren’t talking, they aren’t with each other, they’re not even paired together in the blocking of the final shot. (we all know who is, though.

when are mike and el ever together since they’ve been dating, excluding scenes that further the deterioration of their relationship? they’re barely together at all.

el continuously has a plot/subplot of coming into her own. being independent. not being defined by papa, or her dad, or mike (as max says in season three). obviously she wants to have a family and loved ones. she deserves to have that. she does have that - but that’s not going to be taken away or lessened by her standing on her own two legs without anyone else telling her how they want her to do so

all of this has been leading to a milkvan breakup. it’s been built up for multiple seasons now. they’ve laid the ground work. mike and el were best together and understood each other the most when they were friends.

notice how i didn’t say “just friends” - romantic relationships are not actually any stronger than friendship. just different. in fact, friendship is stronger, and while romance can heighten that (like with other pairings in the show) sometimes it just doesn’t (like with mike and el).

mike and el haven’t been friends for a while. like how people say “just friends”, they’re just dating. they’ve been doing this since they were so young and they’re still so young and they don’t understand the importance of the friendship aspect of romantic relationships. they only understand what girlfriend and boyfriend are supposed to do, and they can’t even try to do that without it all falling apart.

they need to be friends again. their relationship would be so much stronger. i miss their friendship. they were so sweet and so understanding and so good together when they were actually friends. a lot of couples are both friends and dating, especially in stranger things - look at lumax, my favorite example of this and why i love them so much. but mike and el aren’t. and they should be. they were best when they were

i fucking love elmike and there’s no chance of me getting them back if they keep trying to date each other “correctly” instead of, i don’t know, trying to be friends again. making genuine connections with each other. being true to the nature of their relationship. they are such friends, and maybe if they were friends and dating it would work out, but they’re not and it’s clear they’re not going to be. so if it’s one or the other, they should pick friends. they are amazing together as friends. they were always best as friends.

and then when we flip over to the byler side of things. mike and will have had a long time being friends. they’ve been friends, best friends, since kindergarten. in season 5, they’ll be in junior year, and they will have been best friends for ten years. they’ve had time to have their relationship develop, unlike mike and eleven. they are so clearly very good to each other and with each other as friends - but there is something grating on their relationship and friendship recently. something bubbling beneath the surface, making smooth sailing not so smooth.

yes, this is a metaphor for homosexuality. homosexuality is banging on their door. these bitches GAY. and it’s straining their friendship. they’re still friends, obviously, and they still want to be, but by ignoring this whole other piece of their relationship, they start fighting and misunderstanding each other for the first time in the history of their friendship. something clearly needs to change here.

when byler does become canon, there is zero doubt in my mind that they will still also be friends. that is the backbone and most important part of their relationship, and that is why their relationship will work. and that’s also 80% of the reason why i ship them, especially over milkvan, who just aren’t friends anymore like they were in s1.

something needs to change here in both mike and el’s relationship and mike and will’s. something that will benefit all these characters individually and their relationships. something that the creators have been laying the groundwork for for multiple seasons now. and i cannot wait to watch it happen. i love all three of these characters so much and i need them to get their happy ending

[thranduel]

just so we’re clear, if the writers did NOT involve will and make him in love with mike since the start and then have the audacity to use him as a plot device to push mike into telling his girlfriend he loves her, i would be way less frustrated about that monologue. if their intention was to make mike and el a couple since the start until the end, and they were actually a well-written couple that eventually learned how to understand each other and communicate without using a traumatised gay kid as a plot device to “fix” their problems (which were not actually fixed), i would be fine with that, but that’s not what they did. will never, ever had to be shoved in the middle of their relationship and forced to watch them be lovey dovey together for several seasons in a row. it’s cruel, unnecessary and horrible writing if the outcome is just going to be the same as always: will has unrequited love and mike and el stay stuck together with no growth or development. mike and el DID have potential to be a wonderful, well-loved couple, but the writers miserably failed with that the moment they decided to involve another kid who has been through enough