#they could never make me hate you ivan alien stage

[misanthrapologist]

okay I have some stuff I wanna spout about nowhere and ivan himself now having the official lyrics and various translations. someone please listen to my ramblings.

starting off this song is clearly about him and his struggles about himself and his whole life. we see this overall from the lyrics and of course the cover.

if black sorrow was hopeless then this is beyond hopeless. the "this/that always happens to me" is just a clear sign right off the bat about this along with the "it's so typical, typical to me" it's it's obvious just how used to always being in these awful situations he is "that's just how it is" and how it'll always be, how it'll end "it's stained with blood" (can he stop that man you just jinxed your own pretty much suicide) he's always expected a death that's obviously not going to be that normal or say "happy" for lack of me thinking of a better word of a death, but it's okay, he's content with that cause it's what would've always happened no matter what. it's always how everything goes for him. fate sealed to an awful end from the beginning of his life.

the dream and hope slowly going from rose to purple to black once again shows this hope slipping away never to be fully back again no matter what. even if for a second he gains a bit of hope back, it's pointless. it'll always end wrong and it's back to his usual life. "wake up, wake up in my overwhelming daily/beautiful life. is it for real? an existence like dust, I can't stand to look at it, close my eyes and my mind" he's clearly unhappy with his life (to a point) and himself, preffering to look away, ignore it and forget as much as he can as to not stress about it anymore than necessary. it's easier that way rather than facing it or communicating about it at all. and we know how he is when it comes to all that. he's shit at it and doesn't know how to really do it so obviously that's what he does. the "is it for real?" is honestly kind of funny tbh. yet so meaningful. in a way it could mean that it's hard to believe what's happening and that it's better than anything he ever had in the slums or in general. maybe a feeling of unworthiness of these things in regards to the "beautiful life" line, since although not the best, again, better than anything he could've ever wished for. or maybe something else.

we already knew he does not like himself and is truthfully not confident. he certainly.attempts to be as we see from the act/personality he puts on but even then he ends it off with a way to slightly jab at himself as we see in his interview where when asked about his charm he says he has more flaws and his looks being "quite average". along with a mention about his teeth or rather tooth. here I'd like to mention the line "with that revolting tooth"/"with these disgusting teeth" this stuck out to me since it's very obviously him once again hating on himself. it's clearly a part many like/mention about him a lot. but it's him, who he is and of course he hates it. the constant descriptions of him from the team and himself being that he's "twisted" and variations of that further show just how deep this hatred goes. this feeling of abnormality and wrongness. the feeling you're so vastly different from everyone and needing to learn how to be normal and like the others in order to fit in and be liked. an act. one he's put up his whole life nearly down to his death before he does everything at the end of round 6. even in official arts of him being genuine in canon we don't see much except strong distress. which is so utterly fitting to how he thinks and is. of course he's distressed whenever he's alone and himself, putting on an act so different from himself pretty much all day every day of your life really takes that kind of toll on you. I don't blame him for looking so pissed off when he's alone it's stressful pretending to be someone who you're not, someone who you had to learn to be to survive, someone who you were forced to perfect to the best of your abilities to be likeable in some way, someone who may as well be their own separate person at that point. (I could go on and on but I have so much else to talk about my bad.)

"this painful wound that keeps getting worse, I become more and more numb to it" says a lot and could be referring to many different things. but why not everything? I see it as this reffering once again to his life as a whole and way of living as an act. after so many years, you get used to this the more you do it and the more things happen.

"In the dark city lights I can't find anyone, anyone, anyone" this could mean a variety of things really. having no one to truly relate to as a metaphor of sorts or just being alone in the past in the slums or both even. a lot if not most of these lyrics as seen tie back to the way he lives and thinks about himself, further making me believe this song truly is just a better, even clearer look at his true self.

now with lyrics I thought had one meaning even before the official release that just become less of a reach on my end that I'll talk about more broken up. "that's just the kind of kid he is, so laugh, laugh because he can't do anything" this one I immediately think about his issue about not presenting and being like everyone else having to learn to be "human" in a sense. (along with his again self deprecation being the one writing these and singing them) "can't do anything" makes me believe this even more since he didn't really know how to express anything considered human before being taught how to or being forced to teach himself for example how to smile. a basic human action everyone naturally knows how to do. but he doesn't. he had to learn and be forced to do things like that. observing people and picking up how to do things "right". "no one cares about him, there's nowhere in the world for him to rest, that's just how he is" again reffering to his true nature. feeling uncared for and "rightfully" hated in your own eyes. wanting to change and trying to change and pretending yet knowing it'll never truly be real or enough to feel something. "rest" here could either mean literally as in he doesn't get a damn break, never really had anywhere to go at all and has been alone his whole life or doesn't get a break from faking everything I mean with such insane security and obviously being under such pressure it's hard to fully put your guard down anywhere. though I won't say only one since I honestly think it could once again have many meanings, cause most things he says in this song can be taken in different ways that still perfectly fit with his character. "he's smooth, flexible, quite easy" and the rest of this verse coullddddd be reffering to his act. I think so at least. I already said how I feel about that no need to repeat myself.

that's a lot and honestly all I got without repeating myself for the rest I hope this was coherent enough and makes at least some sense. I just wanted to get all this out my system and if anyone has anything to add go ahead and uhbmy bad for getting a little personal but writing all this and thinking about it is honestly therapeutic?? in a way. I so awfully and deeply relate to this guy half the time I think or talk about him and his issues I stop and think about how I'm basically describing myself. he's truly such an insanely well written and interesting character I'm not wven surprised I latched onto him so much I don't even really know what I'm doing okay bye :3

[k9punkout]

AND I ALSO THINK THAT IT SAYS SOMETHING ABOUT HOW TRAGIC HE IS. he didn't GET any character development, he wasn't able to CHANGE, because he can't do that on his own and there was no one else who would help him.

since birth, Ivan has always been alone. he was alone on the streets, he was alone when he was captured, his guardian neglected him, he didn't see himself as anyone's close friend. he never had anyone to raise him and show him how to act and express his emotions, resulting in him growing up 'twisted,' as he claims to be.

it horrifically impacted his self-worth, and he genuinely sees himself as a monster that deserves to be shunned instead of a child that was never taken care of. every time we see his own perspective, he's blaming himself, viewing himself as a selfish individual (which he IS, but not to the extent that he thinks he is).

so he hid his 'rotten' parts under a mask that soon became a part of him (he doesn't believe he can take it off anymore), and acted as much like the other kids as he could, and because of that NO ONE COULD SEE HOW BADLY HE NEEDED HELP. AND HE COULDNT HELP HIMSELF BECAUSE HE SEES HIMSELF AS A GENUINELY BAD PERSON.

his character is static because he was never provided with what he needed to improve, and he died hating himself, alone in his feelings, with no one (especially not himself) truly understanding him.

he's a walking tragedy. a child that was assumed to be able to grow up without anything or anyone to guide him. a seed flung into the middle of the desert with expectations to sprout into a glorious tree bearing perfect fruit, despite have no water or rich soil.

IVANNN THE MAN THAT YOU ARE

For context, this a follow up to @crustyfloor’s great addition to my post about wanting Ivan to live for Ivan and not just for the sake of IvanTill.

My response just got so long, I thought it’d be better to make it a separate post so here we are!

“‘I wish Ivan lived for Till’ His relationships aren't all there is to him.”

THIS. RIGHT. HERE.

There is so much more to Ivan and it pains me that people don't see it or don't care.

And I get it, like @rockwgooglyeyes said there is a fair amount of focus on shipping in fandoms, and relationships are an integral part of the larger narrative of Alien Stage, but there's more to these characters than that.

Ironically enough, even Ivan views himself as nothing more than someone in service of Till. Ivan doesn't think he's much of anything without him.

Having Ivan live and be rescued by the rebels is the perfect opportunity to change all of that.

He would be completely cut off from his previous life (the aliens, Alien Stage, Till, etc.) and forced to reckon with who he is as a person when nothing is demanded of him anymore.

Let him finally drop the mask and get more comfortable showing his true personality.

Let him get his hands dirty with the rebellion, build his self-esteem from the ground up, and grow to live for himself.

Let him reconnect with Mizi! Have him realize that there are people who care about him and would miss him if he was gone. That there can be more to his life than always chasing, endlessly giving, and never receiving.

I would LOVE to see him have an arc of character development like Mizi. I’d pay for it, even.

This is probably controversial for me to say, but one of my main criticisms of Ivan canon-wise is that he doesn't grow much as a character, if at all.

From the beginning to where we are now, Ivan has always been laser focused on Till. Everything we learn about Ivan is tied to Till in some way. Even in the comics or art we get involving him, they almost always include Till.

I was joking before with my tags about Ivan not thinking about anything other than Till. But what do we know about Ivan that doesn't have anything to do with Till?

We learned that he's the only character that wasn't bred and lived his early years on the streets as a stray, but nothing beyond that???

Like that's such an interesting story idea to include and we know next to nothing about it!

And then Ivan sacrifices himself for Till. Something he would've done at any point in the story.

Nothing changed. His arc is flat. His character is static.

(And to be honest I kind of feel like this was done just as a means to further Till's character development—*runs away*)

There's still a chance to show people who Ivan is.

Not Ivan Unsha. Not "Till's lover boy".

Ivan.

I hope we get to see him.

Shoutout to everyone in the notes of the original post, your takes are all incredibly based! @unshallow-feelings @nottoonedin @paradisedisconcert @atrophiedemotion @m1zisua @hoisinblackcat

[eggonthemoon]

Alien Stage Round 6 Character Analysis and Lyrics Breakdown

Okay so obviously spoilers, don't click Keep Reading if you haven't watched Round 6.

God fuck it's so fucking beautiful, where do I start?

I don't even know what is going on with those rapid shots of what I assume is some form of experiment that Till was involved in. I have no clue what the goal was or if it succeeded but somehow (for no real reason other than that one image of Luka standing behind Till ominously) I feel that Luka is involved with it.

Was this an attempt by Heperu's (Luka's guardian) rival to make a human capable of going up against Luka? Till being the youngest and Luka being the oldest also means that Till's guardian could have caught on to what Heperu was planning to do with Luka and then start experimenting on humans shortly after and it would still somewhat line up with the timeline.

But I'm getting into conspiracy territory, back to suffering!!

Allow me, to the tips of your fingers

Allow me, to the ends of your feet

Dissolve me in your gaze

I don't want to let you go

Oh this hurts. Seeing him look so defeated and exhausted, you can tell that even though to the public it's not certain whether Mizi died or not it doesn't matter to him. Because she's still gone away from his world, where he is unable to reach her. He wants to dissolve and die but he also doesn't want to let her go if there is even a sliver of hope that she lives.

Please, leave me scars

Please, hurt me so that

Not a single drop of me remains

Let me drown in you

The footage that plays to these lyrics really show how defeated he is. He refuses to sing, his passion for the art completely dead and buried. And (his guardian I assume) when someone shoves the fact that Mizi is gone in his face he lashes out and punches one of the aliens near him.

Until these falling stars

Are buried in the blur of time

However his heart isn't entirely in it and is quickly apprehended.

He is beyond exhausted and doesn't even protest or put up a fight while (the same alien he punched btw) another alien runs their fingers through his hair.

On your icy lips

Read my soul

Yes, my soul

He hopes that even if Mizi is dead that her spirit watches over him, seeing his soul and by extension, Him, for all that he is. Every thought and breath until he falls asleep is for Mizi.

But didn't we already know this is how he'd be like? Time for something juicier~

Even if your cold words

Carve scars beneath my eyes

May they linger on your tongue

You can break me apart

God this is heart shattering. Even if Till doesn't care for him, even if Till throws hurtful words his way, Ivan will still lie awake at night, cherishing what sliver of attention he is given. It doesn't matter if Till hates him, because as long as he is on Till's mind Ivan is happy. He is entirely in Till's hands, capable of being build up or torn down depending on how much (or how little) he is perceived by him.

Notice my pain

And mend me right now

To quiet my fears

I'll drown in you

He wants so deeply to be seen by Till, noticed. Till who doesn't let anything hold him down and always picks himself back up became a pillar of hope and strength to Ivan. It didn't matter how or in what context he gets to be seen, so he went out of his way to provoke him just to get Till to look at him even for a moment.

This was mentioned a while back on VIVINOS Patreon but the entire incident where Mizi and Till got attacked by that hound monster was orchestrated by him. I feel like there is two possible reasons for this depending on when in the timeline this takes place.

Either he wanted to test Till's resolve in hopes of being proven wrong about his courage (after all your hopes can't be dashed on the rocks, if you never had hopes to begin with) only for his obsession to end up growing even stronger than before.

Or he tried to let Till get roughed up enough that he'd be transferred (solitary confinement? emergency room?) somewhere else away from the others at Anakt, so they could escape together.

But we all know how that turned out.

Either way what Ivan wants isn't freedom, he's long since given up on that. There's no point in his freedom if the person that inspired him to yearn for it isn't by his side. He needs Till there, his very presence to reassure him that no matter what Till won't falter. But he failed to take account of the one thing that weakens Till's resolve.

Mizi.

Mizi is to Till what Till is to Ivan. And so without Mizi in his world Till crumbles. Since Till will only go where Mizi is and Mizi already gave away her heart to someone else, it's impossible for Ivan to be free while keeping Till in his world.

And so he follows him, resigning himself to a life without freedom.

Sick of these nights to come

To be engulfed in silence

But the distance between them is killing him, and each and every day they come closer to their inevitable doom.

It doesn't matter if they believe the lie the aliens told them, that if they die singing they will be blessed. Because what is the point in that? How can going somewhere far away from the people they love be a blessing?

In your gaze where I am seen

Consume me

Yes, me

His desires mirror Till's. He wants his soul to be seen by him, recognized for his undying love for him. He wants Till to see that he can give him all that Till yearns for in Mizi and more.

To this everlasting melody

Face to face we dance

And yet Till still refuses to look Ivan in the eyes.

Things get a little unclear but since they aren't shown singing here and there's no flashback to accompany the lyrics, we can assume that at this moment Till most likely gave up on singing.

With our story

Lost in forever's embrace

I'm not sure if Ivan intended this from the start or if it's a decision he made then and there but one thing is certain. If Till stops singing then that would mean he forfeits, he'll lose. Till has never once given up. Even when he went back for Mizi that night, he never intended to leave her in the first place. But now without her he crumbles.

And Ivan can't let that happen, not like this.

Moral grey area aside, this scene is so deeply moving to me

And I don't say that in a romantic context, absolutely not. This is something much deeper than just love. This is the culmination of everything they've been through, all those moments lead up to this.

Because this isn't a kiss.

This is Ivan throwing his life away for Till.

Till was going to loose, the only thing that could overturn that is if his opponent attacks him. The kiss was to distract Till and keep him from catching up to what Ivan was planning.

Just look at the contrast between their first and second kiss. As soon as the score board shows Till is in the lead, he gives him a gentle peck on the lips. The contrast is stark and full of meaning. This was the genuine kiss, hidden behind a smokescreen of aggressive bravado created from the previous one.

And it worked. Till was completely convinced that Ivan's intentions was to kill him, and he was fully intent on letting him.

I know a lot of people doubted his intentions. Because he didn't let go of Till's neck the minute he saw their scores, a lot of people assume that this was Ivan trying to drag Till down with him.

But the minute he coughed up blood what does he do?

He smiles.

and let's Till go.

He's only human. He might know logically that Till has won the match. But emotionally he refuses to let go until he is certain.

Until he knows for a fact that he is the one bleeding and dying he'll keep up his charade.

And then.

And only then.

Till truly sees Ivan.

As he dissolves in his gaze.

[littlepuddingsworld]

Alien stage?? I've heard of it... seems mid... 🙄😒

(PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE ITS SO FIRE I SWEAR)

It is good tho, if you don't wanna write it at the end of the day then oh well. However!! If you do write something, i will literally worship you /j /t /all jokes aside, any works are welcome with open arms, just make sure to take care of yourself and be careful on not accidentally overwhelming yourself <33

-panna cotta

𝔐𝔜 𝔖𝔄𝔙ℑ𝔒𝔘ℜ

you are actually so right about everything just... ugh😔😔😔 im okay!!! boo,,,, <3333 im just trying to make that my new hyperfix and coquette up my new bloggie a little, since i don't know how to do aesthetic right at least cheesie bot with me again</3 they ignored my blogs so long uh-huh so its a lucky sight<3 but like!!! i still can't let go of the idea of Luka. I love Ivan, don't get me wrong, but Luka is such a diva.

♡ unhealthy relationship, childhood traumas, bad socialization, mild harassment (probably?), drabble

just imagine that this is a closed weird-ish (unique) child whom you have known since childhood, constantly carrying with you because this is the only one who did not have clique with anyone, and at first he kind of resists, but over time just lets you, even looking for you on his own when there is such an opportunity, because the schedule of study in the garden is very loaded - singing, learning to comprehend death, philosophical teachings about accepting death, singing, gymnastics, singing, eating, studying, individual programs - but you still look for each other when it's time to walk-

always.

indoors, in a closed society in which everyone has been with each other for several years, with an ever-decreasing number of "unsuccessful students" and without the opportunity to get to know each other properly, everyone clings to each other like oxygen, especially when studying becomes more and more stressful, but you always find each other in the dining room in the classroom, in the garden - soon everyone in the garden knows that you are close, even if LUKA sometimes keeps especially aloof when you are in the garden among the flowers, but you don't mind knowing his personality. you're just glad you have him.

a friend.

in an atmosphere in which a little more and you will go crazy, in an atmosphere of isolation and pressure, when you awkwardly grab each other's sleeves, trying to say that you are friends, not even really knowing how to be friends or communicate, since aliens have never treated you the way you want to be treated, to have a cold, submissive, soft, but such a living and breathing LUKA is like having something soft and delicate on your hands, like red flowers, but if the flower is red, then LUKA... LUKA is like the sun.

it's cold, but sometimes it's warm, even if you know it's unrealistic; it's so soft and gentle, even though you can't reach it with your hand. you can reach LUKA with your hand - he does not even resist, on the contrary, he sits closer to you with his sleeve in his mouth.

so silly.

but yours.

huddle closer, like red flowers, trying not to get warm, not to hide, finally closing our eyes, knowing that even closing our eyes, nothing will disappear - but for the first time you are happy about it, feeling the body next to you, so soft and obedient, breathing. even if LUKA doesn't like running, he prefers hide-and-seek, you agree to sit with him. aliens, you're even ready to hide from the whole world during his favorite game, and you're ready to show up if it means they won't realize that LUKE was hiding with you and won't go check this place again! and you're ready to give him food, and you hate seeing him so mildly vulnerable, like even a badly fallen branch (but you know they never fall!) could kill him. LUKE is soft, so gentle, so delicate that when he doesn't move for a long time, you can't help but be afraid that something has happened to him.

LUKA doesn't mind. on the contrary, he hates it when you leave without him, when you have fun without him, when you are with others without him - but you don't mind - is it strange? he has no one but you... and perhaps two more children - and rather encourage him to cling if he feels good. after all, isn't this normal? Who will teach you what is "normal"? LUKA is older and understands this better - he looks up with his eyes, drooling on his sleeve, and you just gently snuggle closer to him so as not to disturb him. he is so gentle and small, even if he is taller than you - when did he become like this? he was always so little...

you do not notice at what point you are really inseparable. his hand is in your hand, he is hanging on you, you are almost wearing him, his shoulder is in your shoulder, he is on your chest, you are on his chest, lying together under a tree, lying with your head on each other's shoulder, cuddling, cuddling another, putting your head on your head - over time, personal space becomes more less and less, both in quantity and in time. he's got his heartbeat under your fingers, your own beating to the beat. LUKA looks at you with his eyes, and although there are no tears in them, you still kiss him on the forehead. it's so disgusting that you can't do anything. it's so frustrating that he doesn't even fight, and even though you realize that it's impossible for you to fight, not in this atmosphere and society, he's like a rag.

... it's so weird when he keeps snuggling up to you - and you to him so you're probably no better - even as you get older. he already looks different, children's cheeks and fat disappear, exposing chiseled elegant features full of some gentle sadness of a luxurious but little-lived butterfly, mixed with longing for something long lost and forgotten, and... sun. some kind of sunstone. there is less of that gentle, childlike softness in him, more like fresh milk, - and more of that silent severity, even sharpness. his face changes, he stretches out, his gaze is no longer the same, he no longer drools, does not look into the distance with the same face, does not cling to you like a lost chick, does not look like someone abandoned and unable to survive on his own, the name of which is spinning in your head, but you can't tell, when he puts his head on your chest, but now it doesn't feel like that. it's still your LUKA, but not your LUKA, and you don't know how to explain it to him, especially when he's still looking up from the bottom, as if thinking about something, but now it seems so... strange and distant.

you are not uncomfortable with his touch or proximity, but seeing him like this seems unfamiliar. his gaze changes, his body changes, he is silent with a completely different meaning, and you realize that he has been through too much - now you are old enough to understand this - but you still do not know what you can say or do. you can no longer protect him, give him a portion, hide him in your hands, promise to always be together, kiss him on the forehead, hide behind bushes so that no one finds you while you huddle together as if for the last time - none of this will work.

and you get even more disgusted - from yourself, from the situation, from him - when he tells you "don't worry. I will protect you. I guarantee your safety." with a direct eye-to-eye look because you don't want protection - you want time back, hiding in the bushes and wet spots on you or on his sleeve from saliva. you want to lie under the trees again, tell him about your day, draw and laugh.

you don't want that.

... you only get the point when you watch some person die on stage, but LUKA doesn't look affected, scared, or shocked.

he's the best of his kind - you know that yourself, everyone know it - but it all looks funny and ridiculous when you don't just see strangers dying, but you see your LUKA on that stage.

and you are disgusted and ashamed that the only thing you are happy about is that you are not this dead man on stage and that you are not LUKA's opponent. because you know that no one has a chance.

... well, almost no one.

HYUNA has been special since childhood, and if you could not expect such a performance from LUKA, then you expect everything from her.

[imissivan]

the thing is that no one ever taught ivan how to love. no one really taught ivan what love is, even—how to give it, when to hold it back, how to take it, and what it felt like to be cherished and valued and loved, loved, loved. can he be blamed for going about it in all the wrong ways?

on the other hand, till has never not been loved. he’s been hated, abused, dehumanized, put through horror after horror. but through it all, from life to—from birth, love always found its way to him. but he didn’t exactly have the words for it, either. didn’t have the words to express his own love, actually. so used to receiving it, his only way of giving it back was through song. sharing his happiness. it’s not his fault that he couldn’t see how that might never occur to someone to do, who had never experienced real happiness before.

still, love is the most human thing of all. even in the blackest of sorrows, it will find a way.

read this on AO3 — WE AREN’T HEROES —

https://archiveofourown.org/works/61117030

ivan leaned back against the plush couch he was sitting on, affecting coolness, calmness. it wouldn’t do to let the aliens surrounding him on all sides know of any emotional turmoil beneath his mask—it would be a weakness for them to exploit, a new and crueler show to force ivan to dance to, or simply upset their celebratory atmosphere and result in punishment. or worse, they’d send him home, leaving till here by himself.

pretending to smile and laugh at something said to the group formed around him, ivan shifted position, sweeping his gaze across the large and segmented party room, looking for till. he wasn’t dealing with mitzi’s disappearance well, nor sua’s—the four of them weren’t confidantes, but they were constant companions in the garden. rather, they had been. till was sitting quietly, a concept that clashed desperately with the furious wreck of energy and emotion that ivan knew till to be. till was sitting quietly at a table next to his owner, a foul mouthed alien whose cruelty was matched only by his wealth. painful circles were carved beneath his eyes. till usually looked sleepless, but it also usually contrasted against a bright burning of life in his eyes, spite and music and hope. but his eyes were lifeless. dim. and it revealed just how beaten and abused his body really was.

he looked like an entirely different person to his stage portrait—and every time ivan saw it, he felt sick. he thought of all the nights he’d crawled into till’s medical bed, held his hand as he slept in fits and starts, yanking out of sleep with sharp jerks and flinching away from ivan every time he awoke, until till recognized ivan’s face, and relaxed again. ivan stayed awake, eyes unblinking, watching to make sure till would not be spirited away in the night. and just watching. he couldn’t explain why, but something about till was just so deeply fascinating to ivan. till was attractive, yes, and ivan would call him beautiful, actually, especially when he was sparkin’ mad or embarrassed. but the aliens tired of beauty quickly. faster and faster all the time. and anyway, would ivan feel so protective of a particularly gorgeous piece of art?

till stared blankly into the plate of food set in front of him, and ivan’s hand twitched into a fist. he was so close, maybe if ivan excused himself to the bathroom, he could just brush his fingertips across till’s shoulders—anything, anything to banish the deathly stillness ivan was watching now.

a loud bang of a hand, much larger and with more digits than ivan’s, slammed the couch next to ivan’s leg. “[you are not paying attention!]” the alien snapped several times in front of ivan’s face. “[do not make me get the rod, and ruin the party for my guests.]”

another alien, with long drooping antennae sprouting where a human’s hair might grow, placed a hand on the first’s arm and purred, “[such a thing can be entertaining on its own, actually. have you heard of—]”

across the way, till’s alien yanked on his collar. till almost fell out of his chair, catching himself only at the last second. till’s alien gestured to the stage, and another yanked till to his feet, then shoved him up to the microphone. the music started, and a selfish part of ivan was almost excited to hear till sing (he always wanted to hear till singing) (a sound beaten only by till’s laughter, a throaty, obnoxious sound that came all too rarely). ivan tensed. till looked so far away, so glazed over. his cue to begin singing came and went. he only stared at the microphone.

till’s alien went fast to violence. never one for patience. grabbing till by the face. forcing him down. ivan was standing, was taking faltering half-steps towards till. what could he do? what could he do? wracking his brain in desperation. clicks and hisses of irritation from the aliens he was meant to be entertaining.

then till snapped. reared back. launched himself at his alien. a sound of shattering glass—till had a bottle in his hand. was using it to beat his alien bloody. thud after thud.

ivan was terrified, angry. with who, for what, he couldn’t say.

chaos. guests surged away as bodyguards and other pet owners surged forward, eager to please, eager to demonstrate their own training prowess. ivan moved to get closer, unsure of what to do, but just listening to an animal instinct that said as long as ivan kept his eyes on him, till would be fine. so long as ivan kept till in his sights, it would all be okay. (never mind that this had not stopped them from both being drafted for this season.)

ivan’s own alien was not at the party, so it was the one with the fleshy hands that assumed responsibility for human pet Ivan. it grabbed a thick handful of ivan’s hair and yanked him backward. ivan resisted by instinct, scalp burning. there was yelling in his face, painful in his ears. he ignored it, trying to see what they were doing to till. there was a human yelp, an involuntary sound of pain, and then several sick thuds. ivan’s guest kicked at ivan’s legs, forcing him to the ground with a bang against his knees that would surely bruise.

he gave in. he crouched and raised his hands in front of him, showing he was cooperative, he was nonviolent, he was a good little human pet, wasn’t he? his heart twisting the whole time. he couldn’t see till, but he could hear. the whole thing, he could hear with crystal clarity.

when it was over, the pets were all shuffled out of the party, maybe as a punishment, maybe for security, maybe as a reminder that they were kept around only for entertainment and little else. all of them but till. as ivan limped—slightly, only slightly—past the opulence of the aliens’ banquet, he saw till slumped on the ground next to his alien, the creature’s hand in till’s hair, possessive and dominant.

ivan could do nothing but continue limping out of the party. sick to his stomach with his own helplessness, and angry at till for giving up on his own life so easily.

hours and hours later, ivan finally found him. till was passed out in the same place, the same position, and leaning against the sofa next to him, still on the floor. bruises of deep mariner blue and sunset purple had already formed along his jaw, a sight that made ivan’s heart stutter. what had he been thinking? years, they’d been doing this. what had made him snap this time?

ivan crouched beside till’s sleeping form and unlocked his muzzle with one small motion. till’s breaths were alarmingly shallow. ivan lightly, as gently as he could, brushed his fingers across the bruises. cold heat gathered in ivan’s head. useless, he’d been. useless, till was. just the same as mizi. just the same as sua (sua, who was dead now. who’d sacrificed her life for someone who was also never going to get out of this place alive) (sua, who ivan had felt contempt for, every time she shared a happy moment with mizi, planning the whole time to die for her).

ivan’s body suddenly felt as if it weighed a thousand pounds. he put a hand against the wall to brace himself, leaning down more closely to till. even in his sleep, he looked troubled. no, he looked more animated than other people. than ivan, whose mask of ice wasn’t something he intended to wear. any amount of emotion on till’s face seemed obscene with ivan in the room.

till… was it thoughts of mizi that made him snap? had till even known that ivan was in the room with him, not fifteen feet away? what had sua been thinking, as she climbed the steps to the stage, as she greeted the person she cared for more than any other, knowing that only one of them would walk away? as she put in action her plan to be the one who fell, lifeless, and forced the other to live on with the pain of that loss?

what was ivan going to do tomorrow, when he was faced with the same?

they were too old now to sleep in the same bed, but ivan wished they could anyway. it would be their last night together, whoever won (whatever he decided). softly, he leaned down and pressed his forehead to till’s, breathing in his scent. his skin was rough, but ivan had always liked things with an edge.

in that half-caress, ivan let his eyes drift closed, and made his choice.

[vanillaanillav]

flower symbolism in alien stage

So, we have two confirmed flowers mentioned in the series—Clematis from Round 1 and Edelweiss from Round 2—and the red flowers from the Anakt Garden. I have a few options for what those could be, so I’ll go over each option at the end. 

Of course, Clematis is the most obvious flower reference. Here’s what they look like if you’re unfamiliar. It’s a beautiful flower, available in pink and purple varieties, colors which you can find in both of their color palettes. 

They represent transformation and wisdom, the pursuit of knowledge, determination and spirituality. Very compatible with the themes of the series, and specifically of Mizi and Sua’s love for each other. They deify each other and transform each other, through meeting and knowing each other. Sua’s knowledge of their world and Mizi’s lack of it is what leads to her death and to Mizi’s subsequent transformation.

Clematis grow on vines, constantly racing up towards the sun. Sua’s sacrifice, I think, is what will allow Mizi to finally reach it.

It’s really lovely and terrible. A perfect fit for them. 

Now Edelweiss! It’s a very tough plant, but also very short-lived, and nearly impossible to get your hands on, as they’re native to the lonely peaks of the Alps. 

It’s representative of devotion, nobility, and purity, which is FASCINATING to me. There are many more romantic flowers out there, even ones with meanings specifically related to unrequited love, but Edelweiss specifically so perfectly encapsulates why I think Till likes Mizi. 

He sees her as something pure, untouched by the nightmare of their lives. She’s kinder than the others. Naive, still believing in good things like homes and friends and love. 

Even when he hallucinates her, he imagines her as a child, big-eyed and smiling—her purest form. He hates their capture. Hates living, fights and fights and fights. I think he clings to her as a symbol more than a girl by the point of the Alien Stage, devoting everything to this ideal of her, continuing to sing his confession at her even while she’s crumbled into a ball of grief. That version of her may not even really be the being he’s singing to. 

He clearly has her on a pedestal in his mind. When he loses that idol, both watches his friend lose her innocence and then his symbol of purity go apeshit and beat the hell out of their competitor, he loses everything. By the time we see him in Round 6 he’s been completely broken down by the system, never fully developing the will to live for himself, only for his Edelweiss. 

As for the red flowers…

They have five petals, with a black center. Honestly, given that one of Mizi’s likes is “artificial Anakt flowers,” which are presumably these, they're probably not intended to be a specific type of real-world flower. But I’m going to play in the sand here anyway!

Poppies have four or six petals, but they do have the dark core. Red ones specifically symbolize death and remembrance, which is… obviously fitting the themes of the series. But, the red flowers are used mostly to depict their childhoods, specifically their playful childhood love rather than their deaths. I think some of the other options are more fitting.

Geraniums are commonly red and have five petals, but no dark inside. They symbolize deceit and preference, with the red variety further meaning stupidity and consolation. Yowza!!! 

Preference is clearly applicable—Mizi and Sua choose each other to give their flower crowns to, Till makes his flower crown for Mizi. It seems like a ritual among the kids that they give their flower crowns to someone they like.

Stupidity could be for Till not noticing Mizi’s clear mutual interest in someone else, or for Ivan, either not realizing that the flower crown he stepped on was Till’s or thinking it would get Till’s attention in any other way than Till jumping him LMAO.

As for deceit or consolation… I feel like these don’t quite fit? Deceit isn’t present in the scenes with the red flowers, though maybe in Sua and Ivan’s decisions to sacrifice themselves? Consolation is unfortunately not really present in the series at all. Much to all of our collective pain and suffering.

So, petunias are my favorite option for the red flowers. They’re five-petaled and have the dark center, even if they're not as similar as poppies... just hear me out!!!

They represent two conflicting ideas—anger and resentment, and “being with you is soothing.” I think this fits all three of the pairs they’re shown in relation to. Till’s anger with Ivan in their childhoods for ruining his flower crown is pretty clear, his anger with him in general, even with the world.

Then Mizi and Sua’s reciprocated love—of course, being with each other is soothing, and Till finds Mizi soothing as well, as we covered in their section. 

I love the double meaning. I think the meanings flip as they age, as well. Mizi resents Sua for leaving her, and Till only realizes once Ivan’s gone that he did, in some way, appreciate his presence. 

Anyway I just had to get this out of my system because I have so many Thoughts about this series. Also fun tidbit: Till is said to specialize in floral art. Much to think about...

[psychette]

MiziTill and IvanTill analysis.

— First, understand Mizi, Till, and Ivan’s character.

Mizi’s guardian must’ve contributed to her naivety as arts of her with her guardian seemed sweeter than Till and Ivan’s interactions with aliens. Till was constantly thrown around and treated like garbage as his guardian ENJOYS TORTURE. Ivan is also treated horrible which contributes to his pessimistic personality compared to Mizi.

Mizi had something Ivan didn’t: Optimism. That’s most likely why Ivan didn’t hate Mizi when it was obvious Till has an infatuation with her. “When she smiled at me, my heart was reborn” which is obvious, Mizi’s brightness attracts people and which is why she’s able to make friends very easily. Ivan knew Till needed that, one of his ways of wanting to make Till as happy as Mizi does is by telling him how horrible Alien Stage is and wanting to run away with him.

I forgot which animatic but it’s shown that Ivan never had a red dot in his pupils until he saw Till. That must’ve been his sign of attraction. This same red dot is seen in Till’s eyes as he runs away with Ivan, he’s happy — until he thinks of Mizi. He remembers Mizi and thinks of what horrible things they’ll do to her if he leaves. The red dot disappears in Till’s eyes.

— Second, Till’s struggle with attachment.

Till clearly struggles with attachment as seen with Ivan, which is confirmed by VIVINOS on her Patreon, saying: “Till has a deep love-hate attachment with Ivan” which is one of the evidences that Till actually struggles so much with how to react when someone shows care for him.

What makes Ivan’s care different from Mizi’s though? Why couldn’t he accept Ivan’s but he could accept Mizi’s?

Ivan was close to him. He was always around him and even if they did fight, they would still hangout. While with Mizi, Till failed to even build a relationship with her. Evidence being Mizi’s intimacy score with Till: “He’s so distant… does he hate me?” And this is because that outside of rebelling, Till writes songs. It’s most likely a coping mechanism for him to vent his feelings. You can see in one of the animations as Till is writing something, Ivan is right next to him. This can be used as a symbol of their closeness. Even if Mizi wasn’t there, Ivan was.

Because of Till’s struggle with healthy attachment, he couldn’t react properly when someone genuinely built a bond with him, but he could with someone who barely hangs out with him.

This is a sign of avoidant attachment. Till’s struggle in how he can show love. After all, how can someone who has never been shown love by his own guardian give love? He was never even taught what actual love is.

— Third, difference between idolization and crushes.

According to VIVINOS on her Patreon she claims that Mizi is a “fantastical figure” to Till. As stated before, they barely interacted as Till was almost always in his own world (rebelling or writing music). Even though Till knows and speaks to Mizi, they don’t even have a bond anywhere close to how Till is with Ivan.

When you don’t build a bond with someone, you only perceive them as a figure. There’s very little to perceive about them when you aren’t close with them. This is how Mizi’s naivety and brightness comes into play, she was everything that Till isn’t. She isn’t a pessimistic, traumatized jerk who hits his own friend (Ivan) just because he gets frustrated with them.

Because of his trauma, he wanted to feel that too. Till put Mizi on a pedestal. This is IDOLIZATION. It’s a way to cope, a form of escapism from his harsh reality.

How can I be so sure it’s that? You can see it in Round 6. Mizi, already going through Round 1, is traumatized. She’s seen the worst. In Till’s flashback, she pictures Mizi in her Anakt Uniform when she was still innocent.

Conclusion: Till does love Ivan, but because of his attachment issues, he didn’t acknowledge that.

[sleepyivoryrose]

I sound like an evil villain. No, but I'm really excited for the mini Ivan album that will come out, including the critically acclaimed single "No where". It has me really excited (even though I am trying to relax right now. I've got my strawberry tea, I've got my slow jazz...everything will turn out just fine.)

That's how I imagined my life to be as an adult when I was, like eight years old. Classy and relaxed. Boy I didn't know anything about the world back then. But it's exactly that ignorant bliss that should be protected.

----

Just like Sua protected Mizi....qwq Arrgh, the Alien Stage brainrot is strong today.

----

I found the lid of my teapot, so I can enjoy hot tea again without it cooling off. I am overjoyed. It's the small things in life that make you happy. And it's moments like this which make me feel pure bliss.

Talking about bliss, I started playing Animal Crossing again. My villagers say it's been two months since I last played...I could have sworn it's been much longer than that. But I'm glad that I got ideas again to build. And not only that! I am also a bit creative outside of videogames. Not drawing much more, but at the very least I got ideas to do stuff again. I miss them terribly when they're gone.

I think my next Animal Crossing building idea will be a pharmacy. Not only Apothecary Diaries inspired, no (Even though it lingers always in some dark corner of my mind) It's more inspired on an old pharmacy in Munich I used to regulary go to, which had the original little old wood drawers to save the medicine in. Now it's just pills and stuff like that, but I like to imagine that once, maybe in the victorian times, that pharmacy used to be around too. And it still looked brand new even when I used to visit it! I was always in awe how many old buildings and stuff there was back then.

I kind of miss that city. I am more of a big town person than a village sorta type. Sometimes I think, if I had a job things would be at least a little bit more free. I could have my own home, live where I want to live. My deep-seated fear of other people and my low stress tolerance would never allow it to work in an actual job though. Sometimes I hate how weak and frail I am. And sometimes I wonder what destiny wants to tell me with this. Maybe they want me to rise up to the challenge and become stronger while surpassing my lowest point? I don't know. But if it's that way, than they probably had some kind of miscalculation. I don't have any potential. At least not anymore. My will power is about as strong as that of a fat cat lying on a heater.

Getting out of your comfort zone...is difficult. Very much so. Not impossible, as my dear brother always says, but very much difficult.

Right now I can only celebrate the small victories and hold on to that small feeling of triumph.

For example! Today I managed to inquire about the missing document my therapist needed to proceed with my therapy. For some reason, he didn't get it, so I had to go to my doctor and ask about it. Talking to strangers and managing my own problems! Two of my greatest fears! And I managed. I fucking did. I would lie if I didn't say it didn't feel in the slightest bit awesome.

Gives me the feeling I can do more than just hanging around at home, wasting my time, yknow? Makes me feel useful, competent. Which is silly, because I know it isn't that big of a deal. But I am a little bit proud of myself. Hence the reward in form of tea and jazz. They're especially nice in a cold, sad january day.

Annnd we came full circle!

That's pretty much it. For now at the very least. I wonder what I will do next. I'll decide spontanously - as always.

Well...deuces!

[dreamsarebutterflies]

I don't necessarily agree with all of this, least of all Till considering Ivan as his best friend, but the rest of this analysis is pretty cool and so interesting!

The idea Ivan could turn into this annoying guy pestering Till so his dear friend would hate him (as the only way he could mark that guy's memory) made me think. I like it, however, Ivan probably did it in order to erase Till's guilt more than anything.

This fandom always sees Ivan as deeply selfish and hypocritical, feeling obsession more than love. Basically: having a toxic relationship with the object of his affection. While I understand why one would draw these conclusions... I disagree? But I think most of these assumptions come from Vivinos' usual work. Most of it is about disturbing obsession and delusion. It's possible that Ivan actually is toxic. But when I read between the lines myself, I don't see it. Unhealthy, probably, yeah. Manipulating, absolutely. I still don't picture him as the yandere type, or a basic stalker. Ivan always came to Till, giving him strength and freedom by teasing and annoying him in broad daylight, by cajoling him and caring for him in secret. He literally changed his personality for this sole purpose. My headcanon is that he did it because he loved him for his wild spirit and wanted to preserve this strong will to keep fighting the system who turned children into slaves. This idiot finds the guy cute when he's angry, yeah, but also, anger is Till's fuel.

The thoughts Ivan has about Sua prove that he envied her and was harsh with her because he judged her selfishness despite her luck to be loved back. The bare minimum for her was unreachable to him. And in the end, he acted the same way, but I feel it was for different reasons. Fans argue that he thought himself better than Sua because there was no way he would give trauma to Till (who allegedly never truly saw him). So he doesn't even do it to be sure Till WILL remember him.

I would go even further saying that he didn't kiss Till because of selfish reasons.

- For one, it gives a pretty good excuse, in the audience's perspective, as for why his opponent would stop singing, don't you think?

- Second, I already wrote a post about it, but I'm certain Ivan did it to challenge him, so Till would react out of PTSD or Pavlovian reflex and kick Ivan's ass; kill him out of anger and hunger for life. The whole time the kiss appears as aggressive, we see Ivan actually MISSES Till's mouth. Only the moment when Till notices and is about to say something, does he go for the throat.

- Third and last point, I called the peck at the end selfish once... But I changed my mind. Perhaps, Ivan knew how confusing it all was. Think about this, Ivan lied about his feelings for so long, and Mizi left the kid behind- Till is unloved at this point, utterly alone. This small act of tenderness isn't out of despair, not a dying wish, but it is about reassurance; You are loved. Yes, Ivan is being rough with him, yes he's strangling him, but it's not because of hate and absolutely not in order to put an end to Till's misery. Ivan is saving him out of love. One light brush of lips to convey his true feelings and I don't think he's making it about him.

And I think that's pure and selfless. Pretending that he wasn't in agony so Till wouldn't feel guilty, and covering for him on the alien stage so he wouldn't lose points and, ultimately, die.

Till's point of view on his and Ivan's relationship - An (personal) analysis of Till's side of things leading up to Round 7.

As kids, IvanTill's relationship was tulmotious, to say the least.

Ivan would do things to rile Till up as a means of getting closer to Till when they were just starting out, and Till would fall for it.

Ivan would steal Till's things and turn around and give it back like some evil Christmas gift as a means of getting closer to Till, and Till would fall for that too, for some time.

But we all know Till isn't stupid. Till must've noticed after some time that the constant disappearance of his stuff only to be coincidentally found by Ivan every time wasn't actually a coincidence. And Till, being handled roughly his whole life by aliens naturally wouldn't have been so fond of the way Ivan would constantly instigate fights with him. So why did Till keep him around?

Well, I think Till actually considered Ivan a good friend, best friend even. Ivan was one of the only people who actually made an effort to get close to him and to have someone in a world like this would mean a lot to a kid like Till. (besides, I don't think the things they did together would be the same things enemies would do.)

Other than that, Till is a compassionate and emotional character. it's shown in a comic where Ivan and Till spot a crushed flower and Till tells it to cheer up out of sympathy, it's shown in the way Till cares about others around him.

Till kept Ivan around because he cared about him enough to look past those things. Till kept spending time with Ivan because he cared, Till let Ivan continue doing those things thinking he was unaware because he cared enough, even when Ivan had taken Till's most prized possession, the flute Mizi gave him. he didn't question Ivan about it (?). And he cared about Ivan enough to see him for who he really was. Not as some perfect pet, not even as too much of a nuisance. But as a person, just like he is.

And then we have the meteor shower scene. (pain&suffering.exe)

Ivan, motivated by his strong love tries to get Till to escape with him in the meteor shower scene. Keyword tries. Because they couldn't get far before Till stopped in his tracks and went right back to Anakt Garden, why? because Till wouldn't have been able to live with himself knowing he left behind a person he loved to die, Mizi. he couldn't possibly leave her there. He cared too much.

Till probably felt guilty, going back to Anakt garden and missing out on the chance of a lifetime because it was all in wrong timing. But imagine just how much guiltier he felt seeing Ivan the next day. He hadn't left when Till went back. Till knew he was the reason why, and it made him feel worse because he was the reason Ivan was going to continue to subject himself to this torment. And so this was the first thread of their relationship that was frayed and torn.

After this point, Ivan was under the full assumption that he had been wrong about how he thought Till saw him so he gradually started to distance himself too, the antics were dialed up as he fought with Till while intending to put distance by becoming someone Till would hate while remaining in Till’s life and caring for him when Till was unaware because even then he couldn’t force himself to leave Till’s world even if Till wanted to leave his. But Ivan was wrong, Till didn't go back because he didn't like Ivan enough to stay, but rather he cared too much for his own good.

Till noticed what Ivan was doing, and Till thought Ivan hated him for leaving him behind, so as a last effort to pull Ivan back to him and fix his relationship with his best friend, to let Ivan know he wanted him near, he left him a message on graduation.

"You were the one who stole my pencil at that time right?"

That was in response to Ivan's "I hope you'll remember me" message.

Till's response sounds pretty straightforward but it was actually an indirect pointing to a direct message; "I know it was you, I always did, of course I remember you. I see you. I forgive you for all of it...So come back?" unfortunately for Till, Ivan failed to read it like this. Ivan instead saw it as Till finally realizing how bad Ivan really is, he probably even thought Till was mad at him for all of it. So this only motivated him to distance them more until they weren't even talking anymore.

And so after everything, round 7 comes. Till has to compete and win against his best friend.

Till went into round 7 with the full intent to sacrifice himself and let Ivan win because he couldn't continue to live in a world he hated, in a world where he was tormented, was used, and had nothing else to live for. he couldn't continue to live in a world knowing Mizi, his shining light and savior was gone. And that he has to kill his best friend, the last one he has left.

But his plan was ripped to shreds as Ivan realized what he was doing and on instinct went to protect Till one more time.

Ivan goes over and chokes Till and he doesn't fight back because he doesn't want to, the thought of Ivan hating him is still in the back of his mind, he probably deserves this, and it's only right if he lets Ivan take it out on him. If Ivan wanted to kill him right now, he would let him because he cared and loved Ivan enough to. He was ready to die at Ivan's hands.

Only that's not how it goes, as soon as Ivan's hands leave him Till is disoriented. and then he is shocked, worried, confused because he didn't expect this, he realizes what is happening, that Ivan had taken the hit for him, that Ivan had once again tossed himself and his freedom to the side for Till.

And at the end of the day, Ivan is dead, and Till is left knowing he let this happen, and that he is truly alone now.

(I go over pencil.exe a little more in another post of mine if anyone is interested in reading)

[orsuliya]

Since you do such detailed asks and give a well thought out answers, I want to know your opinion on the Ma brothers. Zilong, Zilu and Zitan. What do you think about them?

Ah, our three intrepid Ma princes... Wait a minute, why three? It's not like we're in a fairytale and while Zitan is certainly a fool, he's not nearly good-hearted enough to play the role of Ivan the Fool.

But seriously, it seems mightily suspicious of Daddy Emperor to sire three sons in quick succession and then, as far as we know, never ever procreate again. He's an Emperor and obviously fertile, so how come the imperial nursery remains so glaringly empty? Could it be that he has no concubines at all except for his beloved Xie Guifei?

Or... has the Empress been aborting babies left and right, and poisoning her way through swathes of women to boot? Not impossible, knowing her temperament, but it doesn't really make sense within the dynamic presented in the drama. Drama!Emperor hates, hates, hates the Wangs and especially his wife, so it's hard to believe he wouldn't have used this juicy tidbit to weaken their influence. In the book Wanru is allowed to run roughshod over Potato's concubines and feed them contraceptives willy-nilly, but that's because Potato doesn't really care. The Emperor, as we see him in the drama, would have found reason enough to care upon being given such an obvious opening to start a smear campaign against his favourite enemy. Stymying the imperial bloodline?! Why, I think it might be a crime and easily provable one at that!

This leaves the other option - perhaps there aren't any concubines in the palace or, if there are, they're not being, pardon my French, bred. It's not that multiple imperial concubines of lower rank aren't a thing in this universe - Potato gets at least two and possibly more after sitting on the throne for a relatively short time. It's a pity we don't know what's the policy on entering the palace. Is there a multi-stage selection process? There is certainly no indication of that! Xie Guifei might have been an attempt to balance out a Wang Empress, Seagull was Zitan's impromptu choice, Miss Screecher was meant to be chosen by Potato outside of any organized selection and the same could be true for Potato's other concubines. Our only outlier might be Zilu's Mom and even then it's rather doubtful she was ever processed properly as it would have required a lot of effort and luck to conceal an already existing pregnancy. No, Zilu's Mom was most probably a gift of 'peace' from one brother to another.

My guess as to what Daddy Emperor is thinking? If Zitan has been his preferred heir from the start and he very well might have been since it never had anything to do with Zitan's actual qualities, then it's possible that he simply didn't protest - or did so in a purely symbolic manner - when the Wangs started limiting his reproductive chances. Why breed competition? We already know he has no use for any sons lacking powerful backing of their maternal clans, see: his treatment of Zilu. And any son with such backing would be a direct threat to his favourite, not to mention a potential upset to the carefully maitained Wang-Ma-Xie balance.

...or it could be that Daddy Emperor really loved Xie Guifei and wanted no other. Seeing as he's strongly implied to spend his nights in her chambers twenty years after their only and last kid was born, this would make a staggering amount of sense. The same principle applies - he'd still not protest Wang tyranny over the inner courts, only he'd do it for Xie Guifei and not for Zitan. It does seem to fit with Daddy Emperor's general mindset. Let the others do open battle and exert all that effort, he'll just sit there, look sage and reap the benefits!

After this rather senseless and overly long prelude, let's finally get to answering your question. Mind you, those are not going to be organized, thoughtful opinions, just my subjective impressions on each and every Ma Prince.

His Imperial Spudness Ma Zilong

The not-so-little Potato that could not, but still tried! Let's start with the elephant in the room, namely his rapist tendencies or the lack thereof. See, I'm convinced that raping Awu wasn't actually in the cards, at least as far as Potato was concerned. Compromising her, sure, just lure her into an emptied palace and cry wolf. Outright raping her, no, if only because Potato is way, way too weak and soft to execute a plan this ruthless in its entirety. Besides, harming Awu to this extent would be risky as all hell and sure to provoke authentic wrath in both Daddy Emperor and Daddy Wang. The Empress is not stupid enough to give her husband the perfect excuse to do away with her son nor to alienate her main supporter in the same move. Even if she was able to force a marriage in the first place, Potato would be pretty much done for politically unless both Daddies suddenly dropped dead. The most she would be able to get would be a grandson in a privileged position, so she'd be back to square one, only with one more female to share power with. No, what Potato did and what Wanru suffered was mostly courtesy of Zilu's suspicious drugs. Not to say Potato isn't a rapist all the same, but I'd argue for diminished capacity.

As for Potato himself in his shining spuddy glory, I truly pity the man. From time to time we see glimpses of the ruler he could have become and whom he still tries to be, and it becomes clear that there was something there worth cultivating. The problem is that nobody could be bothered to even try. Daddy Emperor certainly didn't, leaving Potato pretty much to his own devices and believe me, it had nothing to do with his talents or the lack thereof. Do you remember that lovely family scene at the beginning of episode 1.? You know, the one where Awu, Zilu and Zitan lure Zilong into a trap and then leave him there to lie amidst icy rocks in the middle of winter? He could have easily hit his head and died right then and there. Or get pneumonia and die a little bit later. Does the Emperor care? No, not at all! Baby!Awu isn't that good of a liar, but even if she was, perhaps it would behoove him to actually investigate. Not from any kind of fatherly feeling, let's not expect miracles, but perhaps from political expediency? Yeah, no. And I doubt that was the only incident of this kind. Potato must have known even this early on that his father doesn't care for him, not even like an Emperor should for his eldest male scion. Moreover, there is no way Mommy Dearest wouldn't harp on about the Emperor's negligence in private, further affirming this awful truth in Potato's mind.

Mommy Dearest might care, but her care is no less toxic than Daddy Emperor's open negligence. Potato is her key to power, her only way to win the game of thrones and make all her sacrifices worthwhile... and this is exactly how she treats him. Oh, she loves him well enough as her son, clings to him in his role as Crown Prince and then Emperor, but she doesn't actually like him as a person. And oh boy, does it show! I get it, he's not this perfect shining prince that would justify her long years of suffering, but then I have this feeling she gave up on him the moment he showed himself to be perfectly average. Sure, she offers him (toxic) love and (conditional) support like nobody's business, but there's always this nasty undertone in their relationship. Mommy knows best, don't even try to think on your own, listen to me and only me. It's no wonder that Potato thinks he's perfectly useless and doesn't bother to try and better himself, if he knows that even his own mother sees him as a perfect nincompoop. Uncle Wang's open derision isn't helpful either!

And yet Potato is, deep down, a decent enough man. Better than the average Ma, I'd say. I mean, he has some scruples! They might be really, really tiny, but they're there, even as he's being subjected to a barrage of mental attacks from both his mother and his wife. Why, given proper support and a competent cabinet, he'd make a somewhat ineffective, but decent enough ruler, his handling of the flood crisis shows us this much. Potato's best quality is that he really tries. Oh, he fails, but he's no Zitan, content to sit in his room and mope while the country goes to hell. When it's important, he can make actual decisions! Which he may then go back on (or not), but it still counts. Also, he's not petty. Like, at all. He'd like nothing better than for everybody to get along and have lots and lots of plump babies. Even his decision to do away with Xiao Qi is not motivated by jealousy, no matter how hard Wanru and Mommy Dearest keep pressing on that particular button.

Is he childish? Yes. But then, he's never been given any real responsibility and for years and years languished under the care of a helicopter parent who never forced him to man up nor face actual reality, hence his disillusionment with Wanru, once she stops being this perfect smiling automaton. Is he selfish? Oh yes and it shows nowhere better than in his last will. But even so, such selfishness is pretty much par for the course when it comes to the Mas and at least Potato didn't wreck a country for the sake of personal spite, which puts him way ahead of his father, uncle Jianning and bro Zitan. And perhaps even cousin Zilu, who cared less for the country than for Huanmi.

At the end of the day, our humble root vegetable is a tragic figure. I can't help but pity him every time we see him bloom under somebody's attention. Give that man some respect and he'll pay you back with the same, weird comments about killing you nothwithstanding. And he did give us Miracle Baby, Our Lord and Saviour!

Our beloved Groomzilla, Ma Zilu

Daddy Emperor must have been stupid, high, blind or all of those in order to let Zilu and his beautiful brain slip through his fingers. He was right there, that defenseless, motherless boy and ripe for the taking too! If after years and years of being neglected and treated as an afterthought, after suffering an obvious slight of losing his love on Daddy Wang's say-so, after being allowed to supposedly run wild with no attempt at parental intervention... If after all this Zilu still craved his father's approval in whatever form he could get it, craved it so much that he allowed himself to be led into an obvious trap, then what kind of loyalty might he have offered, had somebody bothered to nurture him properly?

And it's not like his talents were easy to sweep under the rug. It's not until after he's an adult that Zilu takes up the pretense of being a never-do-well; during his adolescence he was still giving it his all, hoping in vain that his father might notice and offer him some sweet, sweet parental validation. Alas. The lack of powerful backing from his maternal family is an obstacle, but not if one actively tries to fight against consort kin clans and their influence. Or is it only the Wangs who are the enemy? Must be so, otherwise why the hell would one not see Zilu's relative independence as his greatest asset? You don't even have to make him Crown Prince to use him; just instill some sense of pride and validation, feed his need for attention and put him behind Zitan's throne. Okay, maybe don't do that last thing, deadly brotherly competition being a whole thing in palace environments, but still, use him! But no, Huanmi remained the only person to actually see and appreciate Zilu for what he was. Is it any wonder he was so absolutely loyal to her that even when it looked like she had attacked him with lethal intent, he still cared about her safety most of all?

And is it any wonder that he expedited his considerable will and brainpower solely for her benefit? I was absolutely floored when I realized that becoming an Emperor wasn't actually his ultimate goal - marrying Huanmi in the biggest, reddest wedding possible was! Even if he needed to drag the more august guests in at swordpoint. Not to say he didn't want to take the throne for his own sake; he absolutely did, but only as far as it served as a big fat fuck you to every person who kept dismissing him out of hand, so basically every person other than Huanmi. Taking the crown was a power fantasy, an idee-fixe of sorts, but for all that keeping a throne in one's basement can be seen as somewhat peculiar, there are very few - if any - signs of actual delusion in Zilu's actions. The throne is not a goal in itself, merely a way to achieve his primary goal, which is to marry the woman he loves, take revenge for Huanmi's sake as much as his own and build a life worthy of her. She's his Empress and by gods, she's going to be the real deal soon enough, no more cosplaying in private villas, however nice it might be!

Ma Zitan, the one and only Master of Mope

With every Ma Prince I become more and more convinced that there was something seriously wrong with Daddy Emperor's brain. Neglecting Potato makes some sense within the greater political picture, letting Zilu lie fallow is the height of foolishness, yet it's more a matter of criminal inaction than actively doing something wrong, but Zitan? Oh, there is no excuse for the way Daddy Emperor chose to deal with Zitan. If the Third Prince was truly his intended heir from the start and there is little reason to believe otherwise - if Wangs are to go then Potato is done for, Zilu was never even considered and Zitan remains the favourite long after showing his complete uselessness - why not try to prepare him for his future role? True, doing so openly might provoke the Wangs, but it's not like there aren't any ways to present such ruler lessons as something else, even a punishment. But no, let's just hope he turns out okay all by himself!

Now, logically reasoning, if Zitan was Daddy Emperor’s favourite and the prince he originally wanted as his heir, then Zitan should be given all possible help, right? So why wasn’t he taught any actual skills, whether in governance or in military matters? The thing is… they might have tried. In episode 61, when Zitan asks his faithful pair of retainers if he would be able to best Xiao Qi, their first answer is not that he’s the Emperor so it’s a given. Well, that too, but the first, immediate response? You studied the art of war. Which, okay, might be a reasonable guess when it comes to any prince, but those retainers are rather young and only recently-promoted. Before their soujourn at the Imperial Mausoleum they probably served somewhere within the wider imperial household, but not close enough to any great personage to be knowledgeable about what the princes might or might not have studied. Also, that answer, should Zitan’s lessons be limited to his early childhood, would make them look like idiots or bootlickers of the worst sort. But let’s say that Zitan actually studied the art of war and did so longer than his brothers. Or, alternatively, with more famous masters. That would naturally be a subject of some talk, if only within the imperial household itself. If so, then the female retainer, who seems rather astute in general, gave the best answer she could give.

Okay, so maybe somebody actually tried to help Zitan along. It still failed. Zitan at twenty or so is singularily useless and strangely unambitious, and no, calligraphy doesn't count as useful, not if one is an imperial prince and Emperor-to-be!

It's not Zitan's uselessness or even his refusal to feel any kind of reponsibility for his own people (as shown in the Huizhou arc) I have the most issue with. Although the latter is simply disgusting. And... really, really short-sighted. If Huizhou falls, as it surely must, Jianning and Co. get a clear way to the capital, leaving Xiao Qi to play deadly catch-up. Which means that Zitan's family is pretty much done for. Now, he might not care about Potato and Zilu, but surely he should feel something towards his father? Some filial piety, if not actual love? But no, screw the people of Huizhou and screw Daddy Emperor. Still, does he think that Jianning wouldn't pursue him to the ends of the earth in order to eradicate a potential claimant?

No, what really angers me is the way Zitan treats the women he claims to hold dear. And I'm not even speaking of Awu, although it's rather obvious that he cares little for her internality and rather more than is healthy for his idealized image of her. Xie Guifei dies for him, which is not his fault in the least... or is it? See, I'm pretty sure that Zitan's insistence on marrying Awu despite his mother's reservations was what provoked the Wangs to take certain... steps. Provoking a power struggle is all fine and good, if you're at least somewhat prepared for the consequences. Zitan is no fifteen year old well-bred young lady, he's an imperial prince right in the middle of a delicate balance of power, how the hell does he not know or care about possible ramifications? Naivety is theoretically not a crime, but that surely is criminal naivety. Which begs the question - how hard was that boy coddled by his mother? My guess is a lot. But Xie Guifei is but a trifle compared to the elephant in the room.

Xie Wanru. Xie Wanru, who supported Zitan as much as she could while being in a precarious situation herself. And whom he had no problems with asking for further support, going as far as to aim for the throne, disregarding her own and her children's potential interests. Xie Wanru, who didn't make the first move, even knowing Zitan to be a potential threat to her and hers. Xie Wanru, whose baby got a full portion of avuncular love in form of actual torture and was lucky to get away with his life. Xie Wanru, his sister, whose ghost must have screeched with fury upon hearing Zitan laud himself as this paragon of brotherly feelings in comparison to the well-intentioned Turnip.

Oh, and he just sat there like an offended child while the country kept sliding into chaos, simply because some evil old men didn't let him kill Cheng's entire army with his sheer incompetence. Those dastardly old bastards! Let them scramble around and let the people in the provinces keep dying; they all deserve this for not recognizing Zitan's awesomeness! I'm not saying he should have fixed everything. I'm saying he should have done the bare minimum. He killed a brother for that throne, now he should actually do something with it. Other than purposefully provoking the only guy who actually restored peace and stability simply because the man happens to be married to Zitan's first love.

I'm sorry, I cannot with Zitan. There's a lot more to be said about that twerp, much of which has already been said, but at this point refraining from plowing on it's a matter of mental hygiene.

[ivanttakethis]

top 5 worst ivan mischaracterizations ( aka could you list five worst traits people give him that are just totally wrong) i love to hear people complain but if you don't want to you can ignore this ask have a good day

Anon I am SO glad that you asked!

Ivan is my favorite character in Alien Stage because he’s really complex.

I could talk about him and his characterization/mischaracterization all day and still have more to say after that. Now you’ve given me the perfect opportunity to write a bunch of my thoughts down.

These complaints are in no particular order and are ultimately subjective.

Also, I’m not a Patreon supporter, so I can’t comment on anything that might’ve been confirmed or debunked over there.

Top 5 Worst Ivan Mischaracterizations:

Ivan is an unfeeling and emotionless person

Ivan was trying to kill himself and Till during Round 6

Ivan hates Mizi

Ivan is arrogant

Ivan is violent

This is going to be a long one, so I’m putting everything under the cut. Let’s begin!

1. Ivan is an unfeeling and emotionless person.

I find this mischaracterization to be one of the most frustrating because there is so much evidence to the contrary.

As a child, Ivan is described as someone who struggles to express his emotions and connect with others (imo he’s neurodivergent-coded, but that’s a whole other discussion). But notably we’re not told that he doesn’t experience emotions.

This official art kills me every time I see it because it shows that Ivan knows he’s different from the other children and that it probably makes him stick out and he wants to fit in somehow so he tries to practice/fake it so maybe he won’t be so alone (the imitating behavior is also coded imo).

Beyond all of that, we see plenty of times throughout the series that he feels things, rather intensely even. He’s wistful about the stars and meteor showers and the thought of freedom. He has a curious nature, observing others, wanting to learn more about how they work; how he can emulate them.

And then there’s all of the feelings that well up when it comes to Till. The most obvious is that Ivan loves Till, in his own fucked up way. But there’s more to it.

He wanted attention from Till (maybe the first time he’s ever wanted something in that way). He did everything he could just to get Till to even so much as glance in his direction. All of the fighting, and the bickering, and the instigating was because Ivan craved reciprocation. He grew obsessed.

When Ivan managed to free both himself and Till, he was thrilled!

And when Till let go of Ivan’s hand to return for Mizi, he was very clearly heartbroken.

Ivan felt jealous of Mizi and Sua’s relationship, knowing that he would never have that chance with Till.

Ivan felt lonely because he thought Sua was just like him, only to realize that wasn’t true (because Mizi loved Sua back) and he had no one to relate to.

Also, the entirety of Black Sorrow?? Hello??? He was yearning for more than what he could get. He was resigned to his minuscule place in Till’s life. The song is full of mourning and sadness and grief.

In Round 6, I believe Ivan knew what he was going to do.

He was desperate for anything he could get from Till in his final moments. I think that’s part of why he kissed Till. If his only goal was to deliberately lose, why not skip the kissing and go straight to choking?

Ivan was a dying man overwhelmed with emotion and he desperately wanted Till to look at him, see him, make him feel content for the first (and last) time in his life.

Even if some of these emotions are not necessarily healthy, it shows that Ivan was capable of feeling something.

So… yeah. That’s why I really dislike the emotionless characterization of Ivan. There’s so much depth to his emotions and character, but some people just skim the surface and reduce him down to nothing more than a cold and stoic person.

2. Ivan was trying to kill himself and Till during Round 6.

This one is probably more often a misunderstanding than a mischaracterization of Ivan. I think some people may have seen IvanTill referred to as “toxic” or “obsessive” love when it came to how Ivan felt and behaved around Till and thought Ivan was on some “if I can’t have you, no one can” shit, but that completely ignores the wider context of his character. Ivan was devoted to Till to a fault.

To Ivan, Till was his reason for being. Till was his universe. His god. Till was something to be revered, protected, and worshipped. Ivan couldn’t live without Till. That’s why he sacrificed himself, so he wouldn’t have to continue on in a world without him in it. But he also wanted to protect Till, no matter the cost.

Pretty much everything Ivan did was to protect or care for Till: trying to escape Anakt Garden with him, watching over him after Till was attacked by the aliens in the club, freeing him from his collar over and over and over again, every chance Ivan got.

Nothing about Ivan’s feelings or behaviors toward Till suggests that he would ever harm him, let alone kill him. There’s a reason why when Ivan was “choking” Till it didn’t look like he applied any pressure, there was no struggle for air on Till’s end (even if he had mentally given up, physically there will be some sort of reaction to having your airway compressed), and we don’t see any marks on Till’s neck afterwards.

It didn’t matter what happened to Ivan as a result. Till was the only person who mattered to him.

He would do anything for him. He would quite literally rather die than have anything happen to his god.

Ivan only ever knew how to give all of himself to Till, giving up his life was inevitable.

3. Ivan hates Mizi

I’ve seen this one more so in fan fiction, usually for angsty circumstances, but this just completely sidesteps their canon relationship, which is positive and, dare I say, friendly.

He gave her piggyback rides when they were kids! In the lead up to Alien Stage, we see them chatting and Ivan being pleasant towards her in a sort of “big brother” type way without hiding some sort of darker emotion behind it.

Now, is Ivan envious of the relationship Mizi has with Sua? Yes. Does he hate that he’ll never get to have the connect they have with Till? Yes. But Ivan hasn’t given any indication that he hates Mizi herself. And I think that’s an important element of his characterization.

Yes, he has negative feelings surrounding Mizi, but he never takes them out on her or lets himself feel negative towards her as a person.

Edit: I started writing this section BEFORE we got the official art of Ivan hanging out with Mizi, but holy fuck am I glad I took so long to finish this because now it’s canon that Ivan got along well with Mizi and they were even close as kids despite the fact that Ivan loved Till and Till loved Mizi.

In conclusion, Ivan and Mizi were reasonably close and (imo) would’ve been besties in slightly different circumstances. Ivan is NOT a Mizi hater!!

4. Ivan is arrogant

Yes and no. On the surface, Ivan comes across as mature, confident, and in some cases arrogant, but as we see more from his perspective it quickly becomes clear that the arrogance is just a mask he wears for others.

Deep down, Ivan is very insecure and his self-esteem is almost nonexistent. He views himself as insignificant, twisted, unworthy. He vilifies everything that he feels and does. (“Thank you for being a victim of my shallow emotions” anyone?) Ivan fully convinced himself that Till wouldn’t give a shit about him if he died to keep him alive. That’s not the behavior of an arrogant person. Far from it.

His arrogant mask acts as a shield to keep others from seeing the monster he thinks he is. He’s even kept parts of himself out.

I think that’s also where his tendency to be an asshole comes from. Keeping people away, not wanting or knowing how to drop the arrogant mask, internalizing everything, projecting onto others (like that whole talk with Sua about self sacrifice).

So basically:

Characterizing Ivan as an insecure person who hides behind false confidence/arrogance to keep people from seeing the real (and somewhat fucked up) him? Great. Fantastic. Love to see it.

Characterizing Ivan as an arrogant asshole “just because”? Terrible. Hate it. You burned my crops and killed my cow.

5. Ivan is violent

I don’t know how this one came about, but it rubs me the wrong way so I’ll touch on it here.

We know Ivan instigated physical fights with Till when they were kids because that was the only way to consistently get Till’s attention (not saying I condone that btw). But outside of that, I don’t think Ivan has been violent with anyone else? And would he even be violent with Till like, recently?? I would say no.

Now I do think Ivan would resort to violence to protect Till, but nothing beyond that. I don’t don’t even think he would use violence to protect himself.

He’d probably just revert back to being a “perfect” obedient pet to avoid or diffuse confrontation. That’s what he did as a child; while Till fought back every chance he got. Till’s fighting spirit is probably one of the things Ivan loved about him. Maybe in part because he couldn’t find it in himself.

————————————————————

Anyways, those are my Top 5 worst Ivan mischaracterizations! Thank you for coming to my TEDTalk 🖤💙

[dreamsarebutterflies]

Just read the interview this morning and it didn't even occur to me that his actions surely impacted not only the Alien Stage but the human condition in ALNST in general!

Remember, Mizi was a model to follow as well, she had this little something that made her fucking STELLAR, but then she attacked Luka, of all people? Which forced the ALIEN STAGE organization to up their security. It is said in a previous article about her breakdown that this NEVER HAPPENED on this show (not sure where I saw that we're viewing season 27 or something?)

And here comes the most important and respected human and he fucking tries to "cheat" his way out of it; from aliens' perspective. And I have so many things to say about this point, my brain is on fire.

First, this very good point:

His relationship with his owner is based on business. His owner is famous and I can only guess he works in the music/idol industry because he knows what he's doing here okay? Let's be real, he's Ivan's manager and he's the one who is building his public image. He knows people and he has money. Fuck Luka, this guy is going to up his social status by turning a boy into a GOD humans can believe in. Why is it clever? In the current world the characters live in, more and more humans try to rebel against Alien Oppression. Since Ivan is the picture perfect of an obedient slave, making an example out of him is good for politics as much as business. "Be good, and this could be you." "Do it the right way and you can be important even as a pet."

Side note, but your post made me think of Valentino and Angel Dust's relationship in Hazbin Hotel. The violence of it would probably fit Till more, but I think the parallel is interesting to make. It's not because it's a partnership that Ivan's life is good, after all.

Back on track, Ivan and Mizi are talented and apparently privileged since they were kids. They turn into savages on LIVE TV while there are protests about human conditions. First, it's bad for business, so I honestly think this season of ALIEN STAGE is gonna be the last and Anakt Garden is going down for this at some point 🚬😎🤌 Second, this is going to give IDEAS to other human pets. REVOLUTION🇫🇷™ is what is going to happen.

Last thing I wanted to address is that there is the reason behind Till and Ivan never becoming close friends. Perhaps it wasn't because of misunderstandings (as in, Till thought Ivan hated him after the escape attempt). I would argue that Till has been either manipulated into thinking Ivan would be hurt if he approached him or he could have been paid off to stay away from him. I think threats from his own owner would be futile, because why would they say anything about Ivan when it would be so much easier to subdue him using Mizi? Ivan's owner would have an agenda, though. Ivan is only proved not so obedient with less than exemplary behavior when around Till, after all. Therefore, it would be mandatory to stop this wildness before it became a problem or ruin his reputation. Maybe even that would be a misunderstanding or exaggeration on Till's part, actually. As a victim of abuses, Till would have a strong reaction to the possibility of his friends hurting the way he did. Ivan's owner implying he would have to punish Ivan for his bad influence if the boys ever fought again could have worked. I'm still partial to the theory stating the distance is guilt-induced but the possibility of Till being afraid for Ivan to go through painful and inhumane punishment because of him softens the one-sided relationship they have.

In conclusion, I just want to point out that Ivan actually gave up on everything just so Till would live. Just putting this idea out there ✨

Thinking about the Ivan interview still messes me up sometimes because he had so much potential. He was quickly rising as one of the most influential human pets of all time. The only human pet that was expected to reach the heights of Luka. Brand ambassador, model, singer, performer, everything about him stood on business and perfection. Even during his time in the Anakt Garden he was perfect (outwardly, at least). He has whole magazine articles about his success, from the grimy slums to the luxury of the limelight. Even his alien parent recognized his potential, their relationship serving as more of a business partnership than that of owner and pet. Ivan does his best to honor his name, and in return his alien provides him with money, with resources and connections and lavish gifts. They built up Ivan to be incredibly influential, an important figure who's popularity and prowess had the potential to overthrow Luka's. He was loved by everyone.

Can you imagine that? Imagine one of the most famous and influential stars of your time going out in a manner like that. The perfect man flying out in a rage right after forcefully kissing his opponent. Shot dead. Losing at the height of his career. Just imagine the impact. I wonder if the aliens hated Ivan for his actions, or if they loved him so much they gave him the benefit of the doubt. I wonder how this round changed the public's perception of him. Must've been a dark day for alien civilization.

[eggonthemoon]

How Mizisua and Ivantill is often mischaracterized.

(this is entirely my own opinions and interpretations of Alien Stage, you are entirely in the right to disagree with any of my points here)

I feel like a lot of the time, people often water down mizisua and ivantill into something shallower than they are:

Mizisua is sweet and healthy because their love is mutual.

Ivantill is toxic and unhealthy because of it's one-sidedness.

That's probably just me oversimplifying it and I could word it a little better, but that's my point here. There's more to the dynamics than what is on the surface.

And I want to talk about it.

First things first though!

None of the characters are raised in normal, healthy upbringings. And thus don't have a normal or natural foundation to base their relationships on

I feel that's super important to recognise here. How can we expect them to understand things like boundaries and healthy communication when no one has bothered teaching them this. They are left to figure that all out on their own.

Which leaves me to my first point:

Mizisua is not healthy!

Not in the slightest even. I feel like a lot of the time, at least in fandom, people will claim that as long as there's no abuse and both parties feelings are mutual then it's healthy. That's not the case here.

Mizi and Sua has a dangerous level of toxic co-dependency with each other. To cope with their hopeless reality, they pour their everything into their love for each other. They become the other's salvation. And in turn when one of them dies, the other is ruined.

Both of them are selfish in their love for each other. Mizi loved and cherished the soft side of Sua that only she got to see, it made her feel special, blessed even. And Sua purposely left Mizi in the dark about the truth behind Alien Stage, so that she could indulge in her and Mizi's blissful days of youth.

Neither of them are in the wrong for that. They only ever wanted to see the other happy but because of that, they didn't get to be truly vulnerable with each other. They were the other's utopia, their escape.

To me Mizisua is not just doomed because Sua died.

To me Mizisua is doomed because they were never afforded the chance to truly grow their relationship into healthy relationship I know they could be. One where they don't have to always be together and where even the rocky patches are allowed to coexist.

But the segyein never afforded them that chance.

Onto my point on Ivantill...

Till doesn't hate Ivan, he in fact cares for him a lot

Lots of people write off how Till feels about Ivan as "he doesn't give a fuck about him" simply because Till doesn't have any romantic feelings for him. That couldn't be further from the truth. In the artbook Ivan's affection rating on Till's page is 70% which is a lot for someone who supposedly doesn't care about him. Personally I think Till is mostly just confused by Ivan's behaviour.

He likes him but does things to make him mad.

He likes him but he steals things from him and then return them to him later.

When Till punched him after Ivan ruined his flower crown, Ivan laughed, enjoying their fight.

Till is smart, a genius even according to his peers. But when it comes to love he barely knows anything. I'm not sure where this was said but apparently his initial reason for liking Mizi is as simple as:

She's pretty.

Maybe those feelings were eventually accompanied by feelings of admiration for her genuine love of singing but it doesn't change the facts here.

Till's love for Mizi was rather shallow.

But much like Mizi and Sua made each other their escape from reality, Till did the same. Mizi became his everything because he had nothing. No happiness, no comfort, just his talent and a "father figure" with big ambitions for him. "Love" was just yet another means of survival. For someone who has endured violence for so long...would he ever begin to even consider the guy who provokes him, steals from him and "supposedly" enjoys violence, to have feelings for him?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I think Till feels responsible for Ivan abandoning his chance of escape. Till didn't want to leave behind the person he made his entire reason for living but he didn't even once consider that he himself was that to Ivan.

Only when Ivan returned did he understand why.

And that's why I think Till can't stand looking at Ivan. The guilt is too painful. He and the guy might have fought a lot but they were friends. And he took away his one opportunity to escape this hell that is Anakt Garden and Alien Stage.

Till cares deeply about Ivan but doesn't realize that pushing Ivan away only hurt and wounded him more deeply. I think he only truly understood that fact once it was too late.

Till and Ivan both care for each other.

Just not in the same way.