#they are just doing their best - it’s not a moral failing that they helped Ironwood - a known ally in thier same fight against Salem

[dextixer]

There is no point in discussing Ironwood/Atlas in the fandom.

Since Volumes 7-8 the way that Ironwood and Atlas were written, their actions, whether they were justified or to what extent they were justified and the like have been discussed to death. There is no stone that has not been overturned, no statement that has not been made, no argument that has not been disected.

Regardless of ones stance on the subject, there is nothing left to discuss, the only thing left at best is sharing ones interpretation and opinions on it with people willing to engage with them. Or it would be, if there were actually such people left.

Around a week ago, against my own better judgement i once again engaged in an Ironwood discussion, something that i have mostly avoided for nearly a year, and i got just the right reminder as to why exactly there is no point in discussing it with members of the FNDM, and especially the fanatics.

They do not care about the show, how its told, what it told us. What they care about is to show how "moral" and "morally upstanding" they are by repeating the same mantra over and over. "Team RWBY are heroes, Ironwood is a fascist.", its both to show how morally "good" they are and also to protect the writing of a product that they love, because their beloved product possibly being deficient would be seen as a personal attack on their taste.

Lie and Lie again, if that doesnt work, lie once more

One of the most important factors in having any discussion is for both of the people talking to not only be truthful with one another but also agree upon some level of common ground that a disagreement comes from. In the case of RWBY, an Animated show, one has to agree with what is canon, what we can see in the story, from where on we can start arguing about interpretations. The problem however is that many people in the fandom, in regards to Ironwood especially, do not care about canon.

This being one of many examples. Since as far back as Volume 7, when we saw Ironwoods forces, everyone could look back to Volumes 2-3 and see that Ironwood brought 3 airships to Vale, a small detachment for the security of the festival.

Yet time and time again, RWBY fans refer to it as an "army", implying some kind of excessive force, in fact, some people in the past have went as far as saying that Ironwood was MILITARILY OCCUPYING Vale with his forces, i am not kidding.

But the most often directly lied about scene is of course the scene of Ironwood abandoning Mantle. In the show, after seeing the chess piece, he encounters a seer left behind in his office, this seer allows him to talk to Salem who pretty much tells him she is coming, which is then confirmed by the Ace Ops saying that the Grimm sensors have ceased working. That is canon. And yet, many a RWBY fan often pretends that Ironwood takes his decision after seeing the chess piece and "conveniently" ignore the chat that Ironwood has with Salem.

Fans of RWBY will not hesistate to lie about the canon itself to make their point, for people who claim to appreciate the shows writing, they will often directly ignore or even contradict it just so that they could hold true to their moral obligations.

But what happens when lying doesnt work?

Misdirect, Motte and Bailey and bad faith

When direct lying fails, RWBY fans will often take a different stance, instead of directly talking about canon, they will instead make the most bad faith assumptions and arguments imaginable.

This often takes form in Omissions or other less direct types of lies. Many times, it wont even be lies, but the most riddiculous arguments that they dont themselves believe.

For example, saying that soldiers helping to protect an event from terrorists is a stupid move.

In Volume 7, one of the earliest things we see happen is that Ironwoods forces are fighting against Grimm, the Sabyrs when they breach into Mantle, after which Penny shows up to assist in cleaning them up. And yet, fans of RWBY will say that these soldiers were not meant to protect people against Grimm, they were meant to abuse the citizens of Mantle.

The same goes for the curfew that also gets established in that same Volume. It is done explicitly for peoples protection. They instead say that its to control people, implying that the threat of Grimm isnt real? Which is exceedingly funny since COVID lockdowns happend near the same time, which were also curfews that meant to protect people.

Ironwood shooting Oscar is also a key part of such misdirections. Often times when RWBY fans talk about Ironwood shooting Oscar they refer to him as a "child" a "defenseless child", conveniently ignoring the Ozpin shaped hole in his brain.

This is yet another form this takes. Strawmanning and of course, the reference to "Ironwood runs away" argument, which they hold as true despite the show never stating it ever. They take Ironwood statement that Atlas will always stay out of Salems reach as a direct statement that Atlas will just rise and stay away. And not for example become a flying city which is also a possibility.

This is also another example of dishonest arguments. RWBY fans pretend that Ironwood is classist, that he only wanted to save the rich and leave everyone else to die. Despite the fact that Ironwood ordered Mantle to be evacuated into Atlas and only wanted to leave to save as many people as he could regardless of status. And yet, they have to pretend that he only cares about the "rich".

But the most often seen tendency among RWBY fans in regards to argument is something else.

Doulethink

Doublethink is acceptance of two contrary opinions being right at the same time due to ideological reasons. For example, decrying someone as weak when convenient and as strong at the same time.

And RWBY fans love this type of argumentation, especially with Ironwood.

As shown before in a picture, they pretend that Ironwood only cared about the rich. And yet they also argue that as a fascist he hates and controls the rich by how he treats Jacques.

They will both pretend that Ironwood is a sociopath who wants to control the world and at the same time will claim how sorry they feel about his PTSD and how he clearly should have been thrown out of the army due to it.

Ironwoods prosthetics both show how he suffered so much and should have been told to sit out due to his clear mental issues, yet at the same time those prosthetics prove and show how evil he is, how he wants to replace his body with metal because he wants to be an unthinking machine.

They will pretend to care about how Ironwood holds 2/5 seats on the Atlas council, decrying how UNDEMOCRATIC he is being, yet at the same time, when convenient they will constantly bring up how Ironwood did not ask for Ozpins persmission for his actions in V2-V3. They pretend that he usurped Ozpin despite Ironwood acting directly under Vales council.

As shown in this exchange. The cries for "democracy" quiet down all of a sudden when people take Ozpins side against Ironwood. Suddently, the opinion of the council doesnt matter, only Ozpin does. Oh and this is also an example of how they will change the topic once an argument is lost.

Oh, and of course, their favourite is in regards to team RWBY.

Who are at the same time both small teenagers who know no better and cannot be judged for their actions because they are smoll beans uwu.

And they are also literal jesus.

Because NOTHING says "we are being honest" when the protagonists are amazingly "weak" and "smoll" uwu beans whenever anyone criticizes them for making shit decisions for entire COUNTRIES which they CHOSE to do. And at the same time those protagonists are amazing badass girbossing jesus-like heroes who everyone should worship.

Ending word

I guess what im trying to say is that there is simply no point or hope in arguing about Ironwood, or hell, even arguing with RWBY fans in general unless you are in relatively neutral spaces with people who are willing to listen. They will lie, if they cant lie they will misdirect, and they will never be honest about their beliefs. Because their true beliefs are only "RWBY is good and what it attempts to say is correct". Nothing else matters. RWBY is good. Its messages (no matter how mangled they are) are good.

And to protect those beliefs RWBY fans will do ANYTHING. Because just like religious fanatics, they have faith, a belief, and nothing will stop them. If you oppose them, you are everything they think is evil. If you accept their words uncritically, then you are now a "friend".

[aspiringwarriorlibrarian]

I feel like despite what we've said about Huntsmen in the past, that the series is actually steadily skewering the Huntsmen system and what it represents in the overarching narrative.

Volume 1 to 3 presents us with an idealized image of what a huntsman is: A protector of the people and guardian.

But Volume 4 - 8 shows us the serious flaws of that system, and how it can be argued that Atlas is one of the logical conclusions of that system if it were co-opted by the right (or in this case, wrong) powers or state.

The series shows Amity Colosseum being dedicated to the "unity" of the four (human) kingdoms, where everyone is fighting for the glory of the kingdom. Meanwhile it's revealed that the huntsmen's true purpose (outside of fighting Grimm) is to basically be Ozma and his secret society's soldiers in a forever war against a nebulous enemy, with specific self-sacrificing types like Ruby, Pyrrha, Penny being essentially groomed to fulfill certain roles that Ozma and those he works with because of their willingness to put everything on the line in the name of a greater good.

We also get the revelation of the fact that people like Cinder, Hazel, Ren, the Faunus, etc. fell through the cracks of that system, or who knew people who were negatively impacted because Huntsmen were simply not there. And this doesn't even cover the numerous examples of huntsmen who are shown to be wholly inadequate and who failed people through extortion or negligence, like Dee, Dudley, and Rhodes, never mind those who end up using their skills as huntsmen for selfish means like Raven.

And then there's Atlas.

It's easy to try to separate Atlas' co-opting of the huntsmen system into the military as being proof that the military and cops are bad, and that it's better for them to go back to being huntsmen, like what people suggested for Marrow to do. But the story explicitly highlights that there is a lot of overlap between how huntsmen function and how Atlas' military huntsmen work, like in how they're both unaccountable except only to specific types of powerful figures, with only the morality of the huntsmen in question being the deciding factor as to whether things work out or not. And we've seen what happens when immoral huntsmen get too much power, or regular people are stacked up against huntsmen who decide to be immoral, like Raven or Ironwood.

It's easy to see this as just an example of bad apples, and that there just needs to be "better" huntsmen, but we've seen just how much that sort of thing isn't really the case. Ruby and Team Remnant try so hard to be better huntsmen, but the sheer weight and pressure of what they're dealing with is shown to be too much for them to bear. Hell, even in the best scenarios small groups of huntsmen can only do so much.

Even when it works as intended, it has dire consequences. We've seen with Ren's backstory, everything that happened in Mantle and Atlas, how not only are the people wholly defenseless without a consistent huntsmen system to protect them, but that they seem to be set up in a way that shows them to be utterly dependent on protection. The huntsmen system may very well be intended to protect the people, but it's more akin to a patronizing "we are here to protect you, so you don't have to try to protect yourself".

And a lot of it boils down to how seriously flawed the system really is, because it was a system predicated and created on the biases and perspectives of the single-most self-sacrificing and chronically lone hero person in the series: Ozpin.

Ozma's early incarnation is portrayed as the ideal hero, and his role in the story is that of the Chosen One by the God of Light. And I think the failings of the huntsmen system are a narrative deconstruction of these facets. What happens when a single man with a death wish, a near religious fervor to upholding his mission from his God, and a healthy dose of being morally eroded over the course of millennia creates a system meant to help him fight against a being he deems the ultimate evil.

A system that fundamentally ends up being easily corrupted, twisted and cannibalizes itself because it was never a feasible system of protection to begin with. A system that renders the people who it's trying to protect dependent and defenseless, thus ironically ensuring that if the huntsmen fail, then they can't fend for themselves.

Ironically enough, there ARE examples of societies that HAS managed to succeed without the huntsmen system: namely, Menagerie. The FAUNUS society.

Their part of the world is supposedly set in the most hostile and dangerous part of the world, with 2/3rds desert and wildlife even more hostile than Vacuo. The place is a dumping ground intended by human societies to basically genocide the Faunus and get them out of the way.

And yet, they've managed to thrive. There's no indication of them suffering from Grimm the same way other societies have, and while it takes some doing, their solution to the Adam incident was to raise their own militia and take the fight to him.

And this is all done WITHOUT huntsmen, or the system.

I don't agree with everything here, but yeah, you raise some good points. Pretty much all of the ways the kingdoms handle Huntsmen have glaring flaws in them and while the four part group they're taught in schools does help, there's still a lot of work left to do.

[bmblboop]

It’s ironic how ironwood fanboys claim yang and Blake “betrayed” ironwood when they spent their entire conversation with Robyn making excuses for his he treated mantle lol,

Really telling Ruby’s helped ironwood more then it helped mantle

While I appreciate the dunk on Ironwood apologists, I don’t like the implication this conversation is going to turn into another “RWBY doesn’t care about Mantle” argument. I’m afraid you will have to be content with the knowledge that Ironwood was their boss for v7 while they were still attempting to navigate Atlesian politics, and no one wanted to make Ironwood mad. You wouldn’t like him when he’s mad.

I wouldn’t call it excuses for Ironwood - Yang’s whole conversation with Blake was about telling the truth because people deserve to know what they are stepping into (hence her bitterness toward Oz’s secrets). Yang following Ruby’s lead of telling some truths, but of keeping the highly sensitive information close to your chest.

Robyn was operating under the misunderstanding that Ironwood actively strong-arming Mantle without reason. For all she knew - the Amity project out at the dust mines was another weapons/military secret. They shared with Robyn information that would paint Ironwood in a better light (he’s trying to restore communication) so that they can hopefully finish the project before Salem’s goons caught wind of what they are trying to do. They knew Robyn was doing something that wasn’t evil - she wasn’t the enemy Jimmy was making her out to be - and she would be able to understand why this was really happening.

“We just need a little more time” isn’t saying “Ironwood is the best forever - Mantle can suck it”. It’s saying “We don’t want to arrest you but we’d also appreciate it if you stopped attacking our trucks so that we can finish the CCT faster and help everyone.”

Obviously the show didn’t have time to elaborate on what Robyn did after that conversation - but the fact that she wasn’t arrested allowed her to be in the council room when everything went down in the v7 finale.

If anything it makes Ironwood more unreasonable for accusing them of betrayal - because they helped Robyn see that there was some goodness to his actions, and let her escape - which made their team up later in the volume go more smoothly. They laid out all the pieces for Ironwood and Robyn to reconcile on even ground and actually help the citizens of Mantle in the Out in the Open.

But immediately after that team up, he goes right back to ‘Robyn was our enemy and you weren’t loyal to me’. They only ‘betrayed’ Ironwood in the sense that they didn’t follow orders, they dared to try diplomacy instead of force, ooh so heinous! It worked out in the end, didn’t it? To quote Weiss: ‘None of that matters now!’

[bestworstcase]

I really like your RWBY analysis posts. Especially the (really long) Penny one. Additional thoughts: The argument that Penny is literally a part of Winter and that she can be separated from her again (and share the maiden power or sth.) sounds, to me, like Winter doesn't actually deserve the maiden-powers 2.0, so she should rip out a part of herself and give them back ;). Also, Penny dying is deeply unfair, and how Ruby comes to terms with that (or not) would also be a nice foil to Salem again.

One more because word limits: I also really like your Winter analysis. Comparisons of Winter to Jadis felt kind of dehumanizing to read, to me. I really like you pointing out that she is Kai, because it feels like it acknowledges a kind of innocence that Winter had and still can have. And that the way to approach her is not hard rules, violence or some moral better telling her to stop, but compassion and affirming humanity. Idk if this makes sense. Thank you for your hard (analysis) work.

thanks!

with the penny 3.0 theorizing i've found there's often this underlying and perhaps subconscious mindset that penny is somehow special, that she is for some reason an exception to the patterns rwby has established vis a vis character death. and i can see where that mindset comes from—penny by dint of being a robot did manage to cheat the death-is-permanent rule twice—but. like, the reason penny has unique death mechanics is because she's a robot, but i think in penny 3.0 circles this has been kind of overgeneralized to penny being special on, like, a cosmic scale? which is how we get to the presumption that rwby+jnor and ruby in particular will respond to her loss in a fundamentally different way than they responded to pyrrha's and penny's deaths in v3, or the sometimes-implied and sometimes-stated-out-loud stance that penny just matters more than winter.

(what really kills me about the penny-in-winter's-head idea is that the prevailing thought seems to be "penny pulled some sort of magical trickery with jaune's help and tethered her soul to winter's so she's going to be in winter's head now a la ozpin and oscar" and--folks. in what universe does that sound like something penny would do to anyone, let alone to winter, her closest friend?! and if it's accidental, if it's just some weird side effect of penny dying in the void or jaune's semblance reacting to his horror and doing something fucky to penny's soul or whatever, then in what universe would penny not be absolutely horrified and devastated to find herself in this situation? rwby has been beating us over the head with "having two souls trapped in one body is miserable and traumatic for everyone involved and also fundamentally wrong" since volume fucking three, and y'all want penny to suffer that with her best friend?!)

and wrt winter i'm. honestly fascinated by the line of thinking that has her needing to be taught morality, because... the problem was never that winter didn't realize ironwood was doing bad things! "no, you have sacrificed everyone else—you closed the borders, you squeezed mantle until it broke!"—when winter calls ironwood out, she starts with things he did all the way back in volume four! she traces his failings all the way back to that first misstep after the fall of beacon because she understands that isolating atlas from the other remaining kingdoms was wrong and laid the groundwork for everything bad that came after.

the problem was that winter had been so abused and ground down by authoritarian conditioning that she completely lost her trust in her own ability to make decisions. she believed that her life and feelings and thoughts did not matter--believed that so thoroughly that she was confused and upset when penny chose to save her life instead of continuing to fight cinder!--so she fought her own conscience tooth and nail for the sake of being a good soldier. like, volume seven has this recurring thread of penny acting as the voice of winter's conscience--challenging her on her loyalty to ironwood--but that largely takes the form of penny validating the instinctive emotional reactions winter beats herself up for having. penny and winter are morally on the same page throughout all of volume seven; the difference between them is winter is mired in self-loathing so deep that she tears herself apart for it. ghskgh

so ultimately what she needed and what she will continue to need is not moral teaching but, like you said, compassion and affirmation of her humanity, reassurance that trusting her own conscience is okay. that her feelings matter, that her moral instincts are good, that she's allowed to act on what she feels is right instead of doing what her abusive father/father figure tells her to do.

aaand as for salem if ruby losing penny gets paralleled to salem losing ozma, which seems at least plausible at this point, i'm really hoping that that point of comparison will lead to somebody anybody on team oz finally getting it through their heads that salem's problem isn't "didn't get a fairytale ending," it's "gods have been torturing her personally for thousands if not millions of years" like i understand why the characters have the perception of salem that they do but the sheer absurdity of it is KILLING ME she has exponentially bigger problems than not being able to cope with ozma dying mgjkjhgsdnb

[itsclydebitches]

I kinda hate ‘The Indecisive King’. Like, I get the moral of not letting fear of potential problems stop you from living life, but since the vision is a quantifiable proble (If really vague to the point of worthlessness), it comes across more of “just ignore anything bad, it’ll work itself out somehow.” Which is really bad considering how relevant this is to V7 and 8. Our heroes were indecisive and thus did next to nothing while our real hero Ironwood lacked information to solve the problem.

Yeah, I get where you’re coming from here. This is partly why even though in some ways I enjoy the vagueness of the vision, having some details would actually help justify why the King can’t, apparently, do anything now. I mean, he spends a significant amount of time pondering this problem himself, then summons a slew of wise men to think it over too. No one comes up with anything, but that just begs the question of what could possibly be coming that doesn’t benefit from thinking things over beforehand? To be frank, I can’t think of a situation like that.

And that’s specifically because the Crown presents a choice. Looking back, I think the fairy tale—and the Crown’s presence in RWBY as a whole—would be far stronger if it simply showed a vision of the future, rather than a choice the wearer will have to make. Because a choice comes with agency and, by default, limits the available options. If the King puts on the Crown and sees a generic vision of his Kingdom destroyed by war, then yeah, I 100% get why he’s paralyzed by indecision. What choices might he be making now that are leading to this outcome? No one can agree on how best to avoid that future. He’s so overwhelmed by trying to discover what one thing he can do to prevent this that he misses how the future is ever-changing and made up of a thousand different decisions, many of which might be outside of his control. In this version of the Crown’s power, it’s the lack of a single choice that’s hard to come to terms with, making room for the advice to remain in the present, take things one day at a time, and tackle this problem when you have a better handle on it. But by showing the King a choice he'll have to make… he’s only got two options here. Maybe three if there’s a way to postpone things, like how the Queen’s vision comes with a “Yes, I’ll marry you,” “No, I won’t marry you,” and “I can’t decide just yet. Please ask me again some time" checklist. I’m honestly failing to picture a vision that shows the King a choice tied to that ‘Everything is Very Bad’ vision that still leads to this complete paralysis about what to do. He should already know his options, it’s just a matter of deciding which seems best to him, and he doesn’t even need to decide now. Thanks to the Crown, he has until that moment to make his decision.

It kinda feels like the fairy tale doesn’t understand how the Crown’s power (supposedly) works. I mean, why is it implied that thing King is seeing an outcome here—a clearly negative result of screams and flashing lights? He should only be seeing the choice. The Queen sees the choice of marrying him, not whether the marriage will work out. Yang might see the choice of helping or leaving Blake, not that this will lead to her losing her arm. Ruby might see the choice to stand with Ironwood or oppose him, not that Atlas eventually sinking into the arctic. If anything, based on the established power, the Crown sounds like a kind of Oedipus situation, where even if someone has some foreknowledge of future events, their natures in the moment all but ensure that they’ll still make the same choice. It’s not destiny, just the inevitability of their personality when pit against not knowing the outcome. The Queen will always say yes, Yang will always try to help Blake, and Ruby will always stand her ground by virtue of their ignorance. By being denied a glimpse into what each choice will lead to, characters can only act as they would if they had never worn the Crown at all. The Crown would be better served as a burden after the choice has been made. The characters look back, realize they were shown a moment when they might have avoided this fate, and buckle under the realization that they still made, if not a "wrong" call, at least one that still had a pretty awful result. They're tormented by the idea that if they'd just sat with what the Crown showed them more, maybe they would have somehow seen what their choice led to and found a way to avoid it.

I guess, to summarize a long post, I’m confused as to why the implication of “The Indecisive King” is ignoring a future problem—which, as you say, doesn’t pair well with the Atlas arc—when the Crown shouldn’t be showing him a problem at all, only a choice. I mean, maybe the King was shown something like, “Due to circumstances you have to go to war with us, or with them. Pick your poison” but that’s still a broad and malleable enough situation to make having that foreknowledge really worth it. It doesn’t fit with every wise person shrugging their shoulders like, “Idk, man. I’ve got no ideas whatsoever about how to avoid some future war. There’s definitely nothing in the present we can do to mitigate those circumstances now that we know they’re a problem. Totally useless Relic, that.”

The Crown’s iffy power, the writers flat out ignoring Ambrosius’ rules, Jinn being a Ruby fan for no reason established in the show… everything we’ve seen thus far just emphasizes that the writers haven’t put any real thought into these Relics. Their natures bend (or break) depending on what the heroes need at any given moment. At this point, I fully expect to get a long, somber, convoluted scene about all the limitations attached to the Sword of Destruction… only for Ruby to stab Salem with it and then boom, we’re done. Cue fandom debates about whether this completely ignores the Relic and immortality rules set down, or if our heroes are just that brilliant in (somehow) finding a loophole. The rules of the Relics appear to be RWBY’s window-dressing, not embraced limitations for our heroes to overcome.

[enigma2meagain]

Stream of Thought RWBY: Why is it when it comes to “Morally Complex”villains...

That they and their fans always seem to lean so heavily towards needing to mass murdering/committing genocide while proclaiming what they do is “for the greater good”? Why is it then that when it comes to “moral complexity”, they seem to downright STRUGGLE with the idea of smaller scale morally complicated decisions having just as much validity as the bigger scale ones?

I apologize if the post below seems a bit of a jumbled mess; I kinda just wrote whatever was in my brain in relation to the OP,and it was more just pulling whatever incoherent-but-kind-of-relevant thoughts I had together. Not entirely sure it really answers the question, but more me wondering about something that I couldn’t help but question:

Original Post:

Original Question: Is RWBY Black and White in It’s Material?

The WF/ Faunus Plot is a big part of feeling simplified into a good V BAD, a problem of mine is 80-90% of it is through Blake’s prospective.

V8 Ironwood more of an option but Ch 10 and afterwards really felt cartoonish bad guy.

And a lot of stuff feels like you’re on team RWBY or wrong. (Have there been any arguments stating otherwise? Actually asking here)

My thoughts:

The problem I have with this is that there's an ugly insinuation that being "morally gray" means that we're supposed to act like people like Ironwood and Adam are supposed to be taken at face value as doing something "for the greater good", which almost always seems to translate to "murder a fuckton of people and then rationalize it afterwards".

It's frankly an irritating and horribly myopic aspect that I've noticed the more I thought about it of RWBY fandom (or in general a lot of fandoms)'s incredibly narrow perception of what constitutes as "morally gray".

Like seriously:

Why is it that so often, the only kind of thing we consider "morally gray" always involves someone committing genocide or mass murder and then being treated like they're just acting "for the greater good", when anyone who even remotely pays attention to the context and details of their actions realizes how full of shit they really are?

That they did have other options available, but they didn't want to take those other options because it was ultimately always about their own arrogance/pride/narcissism/inflexibility?

Arthas Menethil, MCU Thanos, Ironwood... it's fucking annoying as piss.

What's also pretty telling is just how often these same kinds of people oftentimes fail to consider, care or notice gray moral actions that DON'T involve mass murder, or quite frankly actively ignore any sort of nuance in the characters (usually the protagonists) they are so quick to judge as being "black and white morality" unless it happens to fall into the above category, or is something they just conveniently choose to say is "hypocritical" because they have this weird double standard where they want the protagonists to be more "interesting", yet lose their shit if those characters have any sort of nuance outside of being whatever shallow two-dimensional stereotype they assume the character is and also will only be.

Ruby's (and her teams') final plan for the fall of Atlas is morally gray because she had to basically sacrifice 2 physical locations to save as many of their inhabitants as possible because the two jackasses Salem and Ironwood literally destroyed every alternative they had until all they had left was the best of a bunch of really bad solutions, yet people are quick to pounce on them and act like they're the villains while lauding Ironwood as being "in the right" despite him being nothing but a colossal fuckup, who was ALWAYS IN CHARACTER despite the accusations of being "cartoonishly evil" because people only care about the version of the character they created in their head instead of the character he actually is.

Hell, long before that, Yang and Blake deciding to tell Robyn Hill about the Tower plan is morally gray because it meant risking going behind a (seemingly benevolent) dictator's back to help try to bring a freedom fighter over to their side to help the long term plan of re-establishing global communication, and in particular because it's also going against Yang's own morals/her own irritation of keeping secrets since now she's having to do the same against Ironwood.

I could go on and on about this, but frankly what I've gleaned from my own observations is that people have an incredibly narrow and myopic perspective on what constitutes as "morally gray", to the point that they just simply refuse acknowledge the nuances of any decisions that doesn't literally involve someone being allowed to commit blatantly evil actions while using the excuse of "for the greater good" to rationalize and justify it.

I don’t really have an answer for the Adam part of this yet, since this was very much just a stream of thoughts I had that I basically cobbled together, but...yeah.

[ironwoodprotectionsquad]

Vol 1-6: I sympathise with RWBY and JNOR. Vol 7-8: I sympathise with Ironwood and not the Atlas military. What the hell happened for that 180??

Honestly? The Writers fucked up and they fucked up big time. They made the mains all hypocrites without them ever facing any consequences for doing so nor do they ever apologize for it. They backstab and betray their allies for flimsy at best reasons, they sit around on their asses during a massive battle whining about how hard it is while the guy who is having a mental breakdown from the stress of having to carry the war against Salem on his own for seemingly months without any support is desperately trying to keep moral up and trying to figure out a new plan because his plan was sabotaged by his former allies.

The writers did everything they could to make the mains unlikeable while also trying to insist we should love and trust them and it does not work that way. Just because someone is the protagonist does not automatically make them right or make us the viewer empathize and trust them. If they do shitty things the audience notices and takes issue with it. And having a character make mistakes is fine, they should feel human and allowing them to be flawed and make mistakes helps make them feel alive and realistic. It's when they face no consequence's when they make mistakes and are even rewarded or called correct and morally superior that it turns into an issue like with the mains. They steal and destroy military equipment, sneak into a kingdom illegally, destroy surveillance equipment and threw a fit when they got arrested for doing those things.

Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum a lot of us have been in positions that on some level remind us of situations we've been in. Like many of us have worked in customer service or management. We know what it is like to be unable to please everyone but being expected to and called a bad person for failing to. Though we are not in James's shoes and don't have the weight of a nation on our shoulders we have carried a lot. We have been yelled at and screamed at for things we can't control. We've been demanded to make everyone happy when the parties involved want things that directly contradict one anther and are inherently impossible to make both happen. We see James's general mask so to speak crack and know what its like to have our customer service mask crack but have to keep up appearances. We've been left to flounder when cooperate screws us over and betrays us and blames us when shit hits the fan after that betrayal. It is so easy to empathize and relate to James when you've been in those situations because you know how hard it is and the emotional toll it takes on you.

For me at least, James feels like an exhausted overworked manager trying to please his customers (Mantel) and cooperate (Atlas elite) and RWBY are the random employee's that came in and got hired because James was desperate for help but then they turned out to be terrible employee's that only made his problems worse and every time a customer complained about something they threw James under the bus to deal with it and then got mad when customers where still angry and they couldn't just sit around on their asses and not work. As someone who formally worked in management and had to deal with the fallouts from shitty cooperate decisions in response to COVID I painfully can empathize with James and his struggles and when I look at RWBY I just see entitled asshole customers that don't care about the safety of me or my employee's who screamed and threatened us because we tried to be safe OR we weren't being safe enough. Their was literally no winning and it is hard not to feel for someone who is stuck in that situation.

Now don't take this to mean James is perfect and made no mistakes because he did make mistakes. But generally the "mistakes" he's called out for don't really feel like mistakes often and feel more like him making tough choices and people throwing a fit because they don't like them. Even so a lot of his (at least V1-most of V7) mistakes are understandable. I can see why he did what he did and realize his mistakes came from a good place. Meanwhile with the mains their mistakes I really just cannot understand or empathize with and that is really a massive issue. If you can't understand the decisions your mains make, you can't empathize with them if those decisions turn out to be massive mistakes.

[avatarconner]

RWBY/Black Panther outline

So a few years ago I wrote up a possible outline for Black Panther and RWBY crossover but I never really went anywhere with it so it’s just been sitting in my notes for years now. Since I’m not going to do anything with it, I figure I’d post it here for someone else to take and create their own story if they so choose.

The information is taken from various writers and runs of the character.

General Facts

Wakanda has NEVER been conquered

It's main resource is Vibranium

Also has Dust deposit

Though does not mine it

Due to Vibranium has made leaps in technological to the point of discovering space travel

The Black Panther, while passed down through the royal line along with the title of King, is challenged once a year by any Wakandan

The Tribal Council (Known as the Taifa Ngao) is the council of all thirteen tribes of Wakanda who help the king with polices

Education is highly valued in the Wakandan culture and was viewed as a fundamental building block to incient Wakandans. The nation has one of the highest literacy rates on the planets. They have an eleven year free, compulsory cycle of primary and secondary education. At the end of this the citizens of Wakanda have the choice in the future of their career path. Many go on to attend one of their free Universities. The citizens also have other options such as farming and mining and other such laboring professions

The nation is very xenophobic to the other Kingdoms, mainly due to the intolerance that has spread since the war between the Faunus and Humans

95% of Wakandans are Faunus of various animals

Every major city is named after a former King/Black Panther

Wakanda has a universal public health system paid largely from taxation. Wakanda's entire population has equal access to health care services. The nation has one of the highest life expectancy rates on the planet.

The king is protected by his own personal bodyguards the Dora Milaje, skilled female warriors who have dedicated their lives to the Black Panther

They have their own intelligence agency known as P.R.I.D.E. (Princess Regent Intelligence Division Executives)

Foreign Policies

While Wakanda is xenophobic to the rest of the world they do not ignore what goes on outside their boarders. They have access to the CCT such as the other Kingdoms since they built their own tower years before Atlas did and is capable of reaching all around the world if needed. But their relationships vary between other Kingdoms.

Vale

Wakanda has no qualms with the Kingdom of Vale, however they do hold the belief that the Kingdom is too lax, not facing the dangers of the world

Ozpin has met with T'Chaka, T'cahlla and Tanka's father when he first became the Black Panther. Ozpin made a good impression on him which led to Wakanda beginning to grow out of it's boarders and slowly start to reach out to the outside world

An expedition to Wakanda with professor Evert Ross and Doctor Oobleck of Beacon academy yielded a productive relationship, with the two learning a great deal of Wakandan culture as well as earning a look inside the kingdom.

Vacuo

It's furthest neighbor, they see the Kingdom of Vacuo as a warning, since they as well had access to copious amounts of minerals and destroyed their lands mining for them. However it's debated whether this has made the people of Vacuo strong since they can survive in such harsh conditions, or merely foolish for letting it happen in the first place.

Vacuo had once tried to take over Wakanda but this failed miserably, since then it has for the most part respected the nation's borders.

Atlas

Atlas and Wakanda have the worst relationship out of all the Kingdoms, Atlas has tried a number of times to force their way into Wakanda and has failed every time. This is due to Atlas' ideals of protecting everyone and while Wakandans understand the reasoning they do not trust another Kingdom that believes it can act as the entire world's police without any of the people it rules over actually in the kingdom.

The SDC also has a bad relationship with Wakanda, mainly with the current CEO Jacques Schnee and his discrimination against the Faunus. But also due to his greed, and his desire for Vibranium.

The only official who has garnered any respect from Wakanda's Kings is General Ironwood, who at the start of his career asked Wakanda to officially welcome it to the other Kingdoms with a peace summit in Mantel. However the Summit was ruined by an assassination of King T'Chaka, sending the kingdom of Wakanda back into isolation.

Minstrel

Minstrel is the closest Kingdom to Wakanda and has respected it's borders

Has never tied to attack/invade Wakanda

However most people who attempt to steal from the Kingdom hide out here until caught.

Technology

Kimoyo Bracelets-See Diagram

Panther Habit-Suit worn by the king/protector of Wakanda the Black Panther

Magnetic Wave Vehicles-Aircraft that Black Panther and Wakandan military use to fly without the use of Dust.

Holopods-Horgraphic orbs that create projections and even have heat signatures.

Vibranium-While this substance itself is rare and has the unique ability to absorb and redistribute Kinetic and Sound energy, Wakanda has also found a method to create Vibranium from itself, making their supply of it endless.

History

Wakanda was founded thousands of years ago by a small tribe living on the continent currently known as Anima. At that time a gigantic meteorite crashed into the ground fairly close to the village, upon investigating the site of the impact they discovered a mound that rivaled a mountain sticking out from the ground. They discovered that the entire meteorite was composed of a metal that was virtually indestructible, explaining how the impact from the impact hadn't caused worse damage.

The chief of the tribe decreed that the mound was theirs since it fell on their land and decide to keep it to themselves. Years pass and settlers from Mantel arrive caliming the land is there, however the Wakandans hold their ground and defeat their attackers with weapons more advanced than their attackers. They leave one man alive and tell him to send a message, that any who try to invade Wakanda will be dealt with in the same manner, after this victory the chief is pronounced as the King of Wakanda, and taking the title of the Black Panther, on account of his faunus traits and pelt of a black panther which he wore into battle.

The first Black Panther, Bashenga, had only one son and heir to the throne Azzuri. He ruled during the time of the great war and met the king of Vale when he asked the King of Wakanda to join Vale and Vacuo in the war against Mantel and Minstrel to end the slavery of faunus as well as the dampening of expression. Azzuri said that while he would oppose the two Kingdoms against Vale he would not lead his people to a war they didn't ask for. But he would allow Vale and Vacuo to pass through Wakanda since they morally opposed Minstrel and Mantle's polices against Faunus kind.

During the Great War Wakanda was faced with constant battle from Mantel and Minstrel but remained victorious throughout until the war ended. When it came to a close, the King of Vale offered Azzuri to join him in forming five kingdoms and divide the world up between them. However, knowing that they could not open Wakanda's technology to the rest of the world he declined and instead requested that his nation be recognized as it's own sovereign Kingdom.

The world then enjoyed a time of peace, during which Azzuri passed his mantel down to his oldest son T'Chaka. His second oldest S'Yan served at his brother's side dutifully until their father passed away from old age.

Soon, T'Chaka had his own son, T'Challa, however his queen passed away at her son's birth, never to know the son she gave her life for. But T'chaka found love again with his second wife Ramonda, who gave them his second son Taka and then becoming pregnant with their first daughter Shuri.

It was during this time that the king was invited to a peace summit in Vytal, giving Wakanda the chance to be recognized as a Kingdom on par with the others and finding a compromise between the other Kingdoms. T'Chaka accepted the invation and took his family with him to the summit. However while at the Summit, T'Chaka was attacked by an assassin known as Klaw, the attack resculted with Taka being mortally wounded and T'Chaka being killed.

Ramonda took her children back to Wakanda, Taka being kept alive by the best of the kingdom's medical technology while S'Yan took the mantle of Black Panther.

Taka made a miraculous recovery, and awoke to find a black panther cub had found it's way into his room.

Characters

Royal Family

T'Chaka

Former King of Wakanda as well as father to T'Challa, Shuri and Taka. He died when an assassin known as Klaw attacked him and his family at a peace summit.

S'yan

Brother of T'Chaka and Uncle to the prince and King, he served as Black Panther after his brother's passing, he was well known for his speed and earned the nickname "S'yan the fast".

Ramonda

Queen of Wakanda

T'Challa

Firstborn son of T'chaka and current ruler of Wakanda

Suri

Third child of T'Chaka and sister to Taka and T'Challa. Is a scientific genius

T'Shan

Son of S'yan, he tried to compete for the mantle of Black Panther along with his cousin T'Challa but failed, he has harbored resentment towards the king ever since.

Taka

Second son of T'Chaka and brother to T'Challa, Taka was wounded by Klaw during the assassination of his father but has since recovered. Main Character of the story

Wakandans

Dora Milaje

Mistress Zola

Instructor

Ayo

Shuri's bodyguard

Folami

Ramonda's Bodyguard

Dalia

Taka's bodyguard

Taifa Ngao

Akili

Leader of the Wakanda secret police the

Hodari

Spymaster of P.R.I.D.E. and head of Wakandan intelligence.

Queen Ramonda

Head of Public Relations for Wakanda

N'lix

Head of Wakanda's technology branch

Teela

Mistress Zola's second in command and representative

General Jakarra

Genreal in charge of the millitary forces of Wakanda

Rona

Head of the Vibranium mine

[lore-of-the-silvereyes-rwby]

The Hero that was never meant to be

I’m going to ask you guys a quick question. Think back to the volume 2 season finale in 2014. Or before Salem's debut. Once all of the antagonists are defeated and you're now left asking; Who's going to be the next antagonist for the series?

Before we proceed with this inquiry let's take a look at what exactly distinguishes a hero, from a villain.

Hero/Villain/Anti;who knows?

Below are multiple examples/definitions and meanings of heroes and villains as well as their anti sub groups.

Hero

a person who is admired or idealized for courage, outstanding achievements, or noble qualities.

the chief character in a book, play, or movie, who is typically identified with good qualities, and with whom the reader is expected to sympathize.

“a person of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his or her brave deeds and noble qualities." Heroes come in many forms in life, ranging from one's family and friends to athletes to movie stars. A person's heroes can change over time.

Villain

(in a film, novel, or play) a character whose evil actions or motives are important to the plot.

 a cruelly malicious person who is involved in or devoted to wickedness or crime; scoundrel. 

a character in a play, novel, or the like, who constitutes an important evil agency in the plot.

Anti-Hero

a central character in a story, movie, or drama who lacks conventional heroic attributes.

is 'a central character in a story, film, or drama who lacks conventional heroic attributes'. These missing attributes include idealism, courage, and morality. Anti-heroes can sometimes do the right thing, but it is usually because it serves their interests to do so.

Anti-Villain

is the opposite of an Anti-Hero — a character with heroic goals, personality traits, and/or virtues who is ultimately the villain. Their desired ends are mostly good, but their means of getting there range from evil to undesirable.

Now that we have some measure of clarity about this let's get to the point.  Basically Ironwood is a Anti-Villain character

If you think back to the things we have learned throughout the series, all the people we have met, you will find that all of Ironwood’s traits align better with Salem, Cinder, Jacques, and Adam.  All of them have this hunger for power and/or control, all of them are trying to protect themselves and increase their control.  

All of them use a level of manipulation and none of them really cared about the damage it would do to others.  Ironwood might be a little better because, at first, it was something he kind of thought about.  Kind of. He had trouble relating to the idea that protecting more was better than protecting less, and it seems that he had been struggling to find his heart since the beginning. 

Ironwood is a well intentioned and desperate man who wants to protect Atlas against Salem, but he can reach extreme means to do so. By the end of Volume 7, he's willing to abandon both Mantle to die and throw away humanity's best chance of survival by leaving Amity Tower; he also falls far enough to shoot a teenager for comparing him to Salem.

Going hand in hand with his Never My Fault tendencies. Ironwood hates anyone bringing up how his ways don't work, with extreme annoyance being the best reaction possible. It doesn't matter if someone is simply stating the objective tangible negatives of his actions, he will not hear it. He gets into a shouting match with Nora when she calls him out on how much damage he's doing to Mantle and only stops when she points out his proposed solution to deal with the current unrest (martial law) is just going to cause far worse problems if he goes through with it.

While he demands complete loyalty from others, Ironwood has repeatedly betrayed the trust of others in the name of the greater good. If someone is an obstacle to accomplishing what he believes is necessary, he will use political or even military power to enforce his will.

Ironwood has helped Ozpin fight Salem for years but they disagreed over the best way to defend Vale; Ironwood secretly convenes a meeting of the Vale and Atlesian councils to report Ozpin's behavior, resulting in Vale removing Ozpin from overseeing the Vytal Festival security in favor of Ironwood. Qrow later tells Ironwood that he has a strange idea of showing gratitude if he responds to Ozpin bringing him into the fight against Salem by betraying him. Even after being confronted, Ironwood insists that he had no other choice.

Ironwood spends most of Volume 7 promising that the Kingdom of Atlas is safe and that Mantle can count on him to protect them. However, when he discovers Salem is arriving in person to attack Atlas, he decides to abandon Mantle to the Grimm in favour of raising the floating city of Atlas higher in the atmosphere where the Grimm can't go. When Ruby tries warning her allies about Ironwood's plan, he disables her scroll, and has Teams RWBY, JNR, Oscar and Qrow arrested.

Ironwood's a man with good intentions, but he seems to believe the best way to handle any sort of situation is if he is in full control of it. This is seen as early as Volume 2, where he both brings a large fleet (composed mainly of machines) along with students for security and later has the Vale and Atlas Councils transfer security control of the Vytal Festival from Ozpin to himself. 

After the Fall of Beacon, James continues to tighten Atlas' defenses with a Dust embargo and closing of its borders, and by the time the heroes arrive in Mantle, there are broadcasts of the general practically saying that as long as they cooperate with his laws, he can and will keep them safe. 

As Salem's forces continue to sow discord and increase his paranoia, and when he discovers that Team RWBY has consistently hidden important information from him, Ironwood decides to invoke martial law and raise Atlas out of Salem's reach, under his control. When Ruby warns the others of his plans, he shuts off her call with his own Scroll.

Ironwood is noted for being a man who never gives up pursuing his vision of how people should be protected. When his attempts to convince Ozpin that they're on the wrong path fail, he convinces the Atlesian and Vale councils to override Ozpin's authority and give him direct control of protecting the Vytal Festival Tournament. 

In Volume 7, he is willing to pursue his goal of protecting the Kingdom of Atlas against Salem no matter how bad his public reputation becomes with the citizens.

To be clear Ironwood is an Anti- Villain type character in the RWBY story. He may have good intentions but it is unknown as to their extent of what they are. His methods to achieve those methods have only made things worse.

I couldn’t let you breath, cause I didn’t wanna Die

We all say we would die for something but do we actually mean it?

“I would die without regret I offer up my life”

It is hypothetical but not in the way you suggest. The difference between using would or will is not about whether the speaker is being disingenuous about their offer, it’s about whether the speaker knows if they are ever going to be in a position to fulfil their promise

It is hypothetical because the speaker does not know whether there will ever be a situation where they would be in a position to give their life to save you. If they were to use will, it implies they are anticipating that they will be in a position to give their life to save you 

When someone says “I would die for you if you need it,” is it just a hypothesis that's never going to happen,  the subject doesn’t want to die at all, otherwise they’ll use “will” instead of “would”?

Kill or be killed

All the weapons in rwby appeal to the audience as they have options when it comes to fighting. Ironwoods does not. His weapon is only designed to kill as a reflection of his inability to see reason. As opposed to other characters that show that when they kill it would be a last resort option.

(Think of the Jedi's preference for lightsabers instead of blasters)

Ironwood has a revolver  -  reliable, never jams. high attack power, similar to his mentality on robotics in general and how he values them focusing on the characteristics of the revolver is the important part, and you see it in another Atlesian character--Weiss Myrtenaster is a Rapier and a Revolver as well, and revolvers are still used nowadays because of their reliability. They'll never jam, and when it comes to a gun all that really matters is hitting the target on a pragmatic mindset at least, and ultimately in the show the weapons used by characters say a lot about them. For example;

Qrow has a scythe - not a weapon, a farmer's tool, alluding to the scarecrow. The actual weapon would be the sword mode, and is inspired by the grim reaper, who uses a scythe because he reaps souls like one would reap what was sown(or harvest)

Jaunes shield and sword are both offensive and defensive weapons which offers a variety of options as to handle conflict

Ozpin's cane symbolically conveys the message that it's okay to be weak and its normal to accept help and support from others

Yang's gauntlets are basically Bruise but don’t kill type weapon as such they give her  more control of the damage that is inflicted on her opponents

As ruby put it the Weapons in the show are an extension of the characters. The extent of Ironwoods weapon is that it conveys his blunt, and cold methods that he can’t or won’t embrace alternatives solutions or anyone else's ideas to problems

This can also be seen with his use of militarized Huntsmen and the use of mindless android soldiers. As I stated in I am power Ironwood’s personnel combat abilities are mediocre to non-existent with his true power stemming from the consent of the people to die for his cause instead of him since it's guaranteed that he will die instantly due to his lack of unique or special combat abilities. 

(Pretty self explanatory considering he had to sacrifice an arm to beat a nerd)

Fear of death is basic human instinct

Ironwood believes that he is this chosen savior and can’t die and he believes his life is more important than others and would instead sacrifice everyone else instead of him if it would mean victory

Now you're probably asking why does Ironwood not want to die when he said he would? As stated before he doesn’t trust anyone but himself to do the job right. His narcissism and ego prohibit him from trusting others and having faith that people besides him can win. 

This has been hinted as early as his debut in V2 where he asks Ozpin;

“Do you honestly believe that your children can win a war?”

Because of this and his Nihilism for rejecting the truth, he believes that he is the most important piece on the bored and everyone should listen and die for whatever he needs if it would mean victory

Ambitions and desires of a broken kingdom

A character without motivation is a really boring character as opposed to one who does. But to realize what their motivation is or what it is truly is another. Ironwood is no different but what exactly is his personal motivation that is unique to him one must wonder?

That's just it, he has no real personal motivation. Like what does he have to lose? What does he have to gain? What is so important that he is willing to go to such lengths that clash with the ideas of Ozpin and the heroes? To answer Atlas. After all, what is Ironwood without Atlas?

 It is important to know the effects of a characters home and origins to better understand a character's personality. Ironwood's plans have always been in line with Atlas, whose intentions are that of Ancient Mantle. Now what exactly are the intentions of the former capital that would live through Ironwood.

Atlas as I stated before is more or less a Technocratic Conservatives society led by Authoritative totalitarians with a focus of becoming an Extreme Militaristic Oligarchy that had originally started out as a Resource driven Empire out of necessity and without restriction 

To clarify, Ironwood is a byproduct, and enforcer of Mantle’s(later Atlas) Philosophical Ideology and Culture. The effects of one's origins can have a very lasting impact on one's life. Ironwood’s life has been heavily affected by his homeland to the point that he will die for it, and sacrifice whatever he deems necessary for it. 

Because of this Ironwoods alignment is that of Lawful Evil because of his Atlas ideology

A Lawful Evil character is an evil character who either tries to impose or uphold a lawful system on others without regard for their wishes, and/or adheres to a particular code. They believe in order, but mostly because they believe it is the best way of realizing their evil wishes.

In other words Ironwood will always be the loyal son of his Kingdom and will do anything to save it.

Now that clears his main motivation and the scale of what he is willing to do to achieve it but what motivates him personally?

Well that's just it there is none. His primary motivation is pretty shared by most of the heroes and main characters and as is the common clause of save the world stories everybody knows they can’t let that happen as peter quill would say;

“Why do you want to save the Galaxy?”

“Because I'm one of the idiots who lives in it.”

So with that in mind what's in it for him that he can’t lose or let the world be destroyed?

You overstepped your boundaries

To help understand his character it is important to understand what exactly his role in the plot was originally and how he ended up biting off more than he can chew when he broke away from it.

Essentially Ironwood was meant to be the overseer and guardian of the relic of creation as well as the trainer of the next generation of huntsman/huntresses. Meaning the only position of power that he should only have is Headmaster of Atlas academy. As I stated in I am machine Ironwood's heroism stems from a lack of trust and in doing so has burdened him with more responsibility than he can handle.

The catalyst 

All of the events and conflicts that plague remnant at the shows present can all be traced to Ironwood. An argument can be made for Salem but to me she seems more of an opportunist instead of an actual evil master mine. Being the opportunist she is she needs ammo for which she is otherwise incapable of making on her own. Thanks to Ironwood she has plenty of it to enact her plans and reach her goals 

Below is a list of events and conflicts as well as characters that have been affected by Ironwood

(Whether Directly or Indirectly)

The Schnee Dust Companies Immoral and shady practices

I know Jaques is mostly to blame for all of this but one must ask; Why didn’t anyone stop him before V7? 

It's already been established in the show that the S.D.C. and Atlas Military have a corporate alliance to mass produce Weapons and ammunition. The most prominent weapons to come out of this alliance was the paladin assault mechs. Now how important was this alliance to Ironwood?

In short, they are the best choice to provide for his needs for war. As long as he gets weapons and all that he needs to sustain a war he doesn't care what the giver has to do to meet his demand. As such Ironwood had enabled Jaques and allowed him to continue his immoral ways so long as he gets what he needs. On the other hand Jaques seems to be at least a decade older than Ironwood so there is a possibility that the corporate alliance has already been there long before Ironwood ever came to power.

But I ask again why didn’t Ironwood who was aligned with a man like Ozpin didn’t stop him? As the Volume 7 commentary stated Ironwood doesn’t care for Ozpin's rules and sees being efficient is more important than being morally good. Because of this Ironwood had been more focused on starting a war first and caring about people second thus he has only spread misery by enabling Jaques’s greed just to have his war. The crimes of the S.D.C. are also Ironwood’s 

The family strain of the Schnee family and Winters abandoning

While we’re still on the subject of the Schnee's let's talk about how essentially Ironwood made Winter the Blake to his Adam

As I stated before in “You had me with your words”  we don’t exactly know why Winter would be so loyal to Ironwood to the point of saying that her life doesn’t matter in V7 and why she would be so against her family to the point that she makes no effort to see Weiss, and Whitely included and only bothering to be apart of Weiss’s life only because she seems to be following the same path of defiance against their father. In other words she only chooses to interact with her sister only if she is rebelling against their father. If she is not, then Winter wants nothing to do with her. 

Now who or what exactly would cause Winter to have this unhealthy mindset in regards to her own personal existence and relationships?

The answer being Ironwood. 

If we were to consider Jaques words being serious than it is more than likely the truth. Ironwood did steal Winter, not just from her father but from the rest of her family. I don’t know what exactly Ironwood said or did to turn winter away from her family but it wasn’t out of the kindness of his heart. He did this  just to have a loyal subordinate with incredible power( her hereditary semblance) & status( her grandfather's legacy and accomplishments) just to give his power and status more legitimacy.

By doing so Ironwood made Winter  believe that her family as well as herself is beyond redemption due to the actions of her father thus leading her to abandon them and only believing Ironwood can redeem her hence why she values her life so little and is willing to die for whatever Ironwoods says.

I understand that winter joined the military to get away from her dad but she had options besides the military and like weiss she could have went to the other academies to get away from her dad but she didn't which i consider Winters greatest flaw is that she has no idea of an actual healthy relationship

The White Fang

This is also speculative but not unlikely as the show has clearly shown; Faunus and Atlas don’t mix. 

Same thing with the S.D.C. this can really be seen as indifference on Ironwood’s part and lack of care  but still Ironwood didn’t do anything to settle the racial inequality in Atlas even though he is allied in a secret circle that's supposed to keep the peace.

Especially when that inequality was being used to help legitimize a terrorist organization that can be used as a disposable army for Salem which it did.

Watts’s Defection & the P.E.N.N.Y. Project

Ironwood commissioned 5 scientists including Watts and Pietro to make Weapons for war.

Even though Watts is an egotistical bastard it really makes you wonder how someone as smart as him would work for a literal demon lady hell bent on conquest. The same can also be said about why he chose Penny instead of any other actual and practical projects ideal for war.

One thing to note is the possibility that Ironwood did not tell the 5 about the real reason as to why they’re making these weapons in the first place. For example would Pietro really want Penny the closest thing to an actual child that he may have had to be used as one of Ironwoods militarized assets?

We’ve seen what Pietro is like and that he really cares about Penny and if it were his choice Penny wouldn’t be in the situations that Ironwood would place her in. Ironwood had basically taken and drafted Penny without her or Pietro's consent and made her a tool for war and much more.

In semi canon sources(Amity Arena) the general consensus is that the Paladins were Watts’s idea and project. One of the misconceptions is that it was a contest for whose idea would be made but since we see both the Paladins being used and Penny that's not the case. All 5 projects were going to be used but only 1 would take top priority first before others and that project was Penny. 

This might actually explain why the paladins were ugly and incomplete in V2 as opposed to their slicker and finished versions in V3. The Penny project took both praise and priority first before the others. Once penny was finished the other projects would begin that may also explain why the Paladins weren’t first revealed until the events of V2 even though Pietro said that the commissions for the projects including the Paladins were almost a decade ago as of  V7 ep 7 

To Watts he felt insulted that his (to him) practical project was being postponed for a sad man's personal self indulgent pet project. This and due to not really knowing as to why these projects were going to be used for. Because of this and Ironwood’s lack of concern for people He had essentially driven Watts to Salem and made him one of her most valuable assets that she ever had. Salem herself even states that she should have employed his services years ago that alone tells us how valuable an asset Watts was and Ironwood discarded it. Which led to the fall of Beacon and the civil unrest in Mantle With Watts out of the way let's move to the next question

Why the Penny Project?

We all know at this point that Penny is the Pinochio for Pietro’s jopedo. So why would Ironwood approve a project that seems the least efficient and effective for war? There have been many theories as to why but two of them stand out the most; Potential vessel for the maiden powers and Espionage

It has been made clear that Ironwood has been readying for war against other people Salem specifically but how does one go about that? The first of which can be explained as Ironwood trying to make the ultimate artificial warrior with incredible power. As Ironwood has more faith in machines than people he would see Penny as the ultimate super soldier that he can use in his war

The second theory as to why he chose penny could be for spy and espionage purposes. As stated by cinder in volume 3 where this theory originates from; why would Atlas make a robot look like an innocent little girl? We know why Pietro made Penny look human but why would Ironwood go along with making a T800 complete with realistic skin and hair?  Besides Pietro there was no logical reason to make penny look as humanly as possible. Like the Terminators who were designed for infiltration and assassination missions and Ironwood being a paranoid individual who sees the world as one of two things; you’re either an asset or a threat / Penny or similar models would have been used to spy and eliminate potential threats in the other kingdoms. With the possibility as to what Ironwood would use penny for before her reveal in V3 clear let's move on to the last part of this bullet point

Why didn’t Ozpin know about Penny?

Prior to the truth of her origins being revealed via her death by Pyrah the only people who knew she was an android are cinder’s team, Ruby, Pietro, and Ironwood. The villains knew that truth after being fortunate enough to have Ironwoods scroll infected by the virus and Ruby found out by accident from penny. 

So officially the only people that were allowed to know the truth about Penny were Pietro and Ironwood. Winter and the Ace-opts don’t count as Volume 7 confirmed that they were brought into the fold after the fall of beacon along with penny so by the time of the fall of beacon they had no idea about salem or that was the sole purpose as to why penny was made.

 The same can be said for Watts too since Penny was still an idea being developed along with being assumed dead and not seen in atlas for years. Thus Watts never even knew what penny looked liked. Had he known i'm pretty sure he would’ve revealed that to Salem who would have given it to cinder for use in her mission. But as V3 shows Cinder finds out after getting access to Ironwood's personal scroll. Meaning that Ironwood kept Penny so secret that he never even bothered or considered to tell Ozpin.

By the end of PVP Ironwood sounded like a terrified child who got caught while trying to explain to a pissed off Ozpin about Penny only to be coldly told in a threatening tone to use the army that he brought to clean up his mess or else. That alone is proof enough from Ironwood that he never told Ozpin about Penny and was scared of what Ozpin would do to him for catching him on his secrets and lies.

So why didn’t Ironwood tell Ozpin about Penny? Short answer Ozpin would never approve the use of Penny. It was already established in V3 ep 6 that Atlas has been doing unethical experiments with Aura. Ozpin and most of the inner circle don’t really approve of such practices but can tolerate it  and use it if they have to. But most likely not to the extent of using it to make artificial living beings just to be soldiers.

This would be a similar moral dilemma as the clone troopers from star wars who were bred and mass produced at an accelerated rate to fight  in a war that they didn’t even understand or have a choice to fight in with the mindset and innocents of a child. The Umbara arc from season 4 of the clone wars series perfectly depicts the unhealthy amount of abuse the clones faced and the length of being taken advantage they were forced to endure

Now apply that to an army of pennies with the same childlike innocence and naivety and sentience being deployed into combat without much preparation and are expected to die just to buy time for the real heroes to win.

Now who is more likely to use a clone army without concern for the morality and ethics about making it let alone not care for the well being of those clones

A key important factor to remember is that until V7’s end Ironwood was pro war as he thought he could win against Salem if he had the largest army at his disposal. Penny was no exception and Ironwood only saw her as a potential part needed for his war machine. Because of the war centric views of Volume 2 & 3 Ironwood and lack of concern for the safety of others Ironwood had set the stage perfectly for volume 3’s finale

The Fall of Beacon

The points above actually help validate and contribute to the Fall of Beacon, but it's true Beginning for its fall started when Ironwood arrived at Beacon in Volume 2. As stated by Oz in Ironwoods first appearance Headmasters don’t usually attend the vytal festival with their students. Given what we now know about the importance of the academies, Ironwood pretty much abandoned his post and risked the safety of the relic under his charge.

All in what appears to be an effort to make a power grab against Ozpin and promote Atlas.(That’s probably speculative but not far off the bat given Ironwoods doubts and actions by the end of V2).Ever since his debut Ironwood has always been a character that contradicts the main characters that are suppose to be the heroes

He seems to only believe the best way to handle any sort of situation is if he is in full control of it. This is seen as early as Volume 2, where he both brings a large fleet (composed mainly of machines) along with students for security. Ironwood has helped Ozpin fight Salem for years but they disagreed over the best way to defend Vale; Ironwood secretly convenes a meeting of the Vale and Atlesian councils to report Ozpin's behavior, resulting in Vale removing Ozpin from overseeing the Vytal Festival security in favor of Ironwood. 

 Volume 2 also has Ironwood reveal to Glynda that he thinks Ozpin is hiding something from them. Glynda points out that he's part of the inner circle that's hiding things from the rest of the world and that he needs to stop talking about trust and learn how to trust others. Ignoring her advice, he secretly collaborates with the Vale Council to strip Ozpin of his control over the Vytal Festival security, then tells Ozpin to trust him.

This also brought up the possibility that Ozpin would be removed as Headmaster of Beacon academy. Not only was Ironwood willing to depose the leader he was following from his position of power but also remove an important ally from safeguarding one of the most important and crucial places in all of the world that also holds probably the most important relic of all of them(The Crown of Choice)  

I already talked about how Penny’s secret had contributed to the fall so I’ll be talking about how Watts contributed to it since I forgot to include in the last bullet point. Its a very small Easter egg but on Cinders scroll as she was rigging the vytal tournament for CVFY’s match and discovering Penny’s android nature there is a small cursive W at the corner of her scroll. The small W that Watts uses as a holographic icon when he calls Leo in V5. RT has said that they had WTCH in their back pocket for years until they were revealed taking that into account it is clear that the virus that infected Beacons CCT Ironwoods scroll and forcing the droid army to commit order 66 was made by Watts.

The virus and the cyber warfare aside the next final contribution on Ironwood’s part was the imprisonment of Roman Torchwick

It's pretty much been clear that Torchwicks' imprisonment was an improvised plan on the villains part to get an inside man aboard a warship. Basically it was like Heath Ledger's joker in the dark knight; he wanted to get caught. Torchwick himself said that he is where he wants to be to Ironwood at the end of V2. As V3 showed Torchwick and Neo took over what can be assumed to be Ironwood’s personal flag ship and used it to destroy the rest of the air naval section that was brought for the Vytal security team. 

This could have been avoided had Torchwick not been released into Ironwood's custody or at the very least kept somewhere else that should he escape he couldn’t have done so much damage. The Airships aside it was also possible that Roman had used the onboard artillery on the city as well that means that innocent civilians weren’t just being mowed down by hacked robots but being carpet bombed as well increasing the death toll at the fall of Beacon.

The Dust embargo and closing of borders

Since the fall of Beacon Academy, Ironwood has become increasingly unstable and paranoid, making more and more ethically questionable decisions that he repeatedly justifies as the greater good; by his own admission, he will do anything it takes to stop Salem. 

This however does not fare well with the rest of Remnant though.

As Atlas is the primary location for most of Remnants Industry as well as having a monopoly on Dust; Remnant’s most crucial resource that everyone needs in order to survive, the other  kingdoms rely heavily on Atlas for technology, resources and weapons. By placing an embargo he has cut off everyone in the world from their most valued resource. Though he did this to stop the enemies chain of supply he is still letting people suffer and die by with-holding the one thing they need to live and survive. 

Which brings us to the borders

Though it could have eased tensions after the fall of Beacon it just lasted too long as well as the fact that Ironwood had essentially turned his back on the world and refused to help the other kingdoms in their time of need. In the CFVY book spin-off all of the Beacon students either went to Haven or Shade academy to finish their training. As well as the Vale refugees going to other kingdoms as well. But due to Atlas closing its borders none of the students or the people went to Atlas for help. Basically due to Ironwood’s orders the Kingdom of Atlas was forced to not help the other kingdoms when they needed it the most.

And it has only gotten worse due to the events at Mistral in V5 as not only are the students of both Beacon and Haven going to shade, putting a strain on the academy but leaving the entirety of the worlds largest kingdom unguarded and undefended as it now lacks able huntsmen to protect it due to Ironwood’s refusal to help 

It should also be noted that when Ironwood closed the borders he had failed to inform any off his subordinates of who can and can’t enter the kingdom especially in regards to allies like Glynda or Qrow who again are allies against Salem and Ironwood made little to no effort in keeping contact with the other Oz members. This is made evident in V6 when the Argus soldiers refused to believe Qrow about being an ally to Ironwood. you could say that he was waiting on the amity project to make contact with the other members but  he had to have realized that they needed to get into atlas at some-point. But did he make it easy for them or any other ally to reach him? No he did not. 

The Mistral Huntsmen Genocide and the Battle of Haven

Second verse, same as the first, he had put them in a hearse. Another example of Ironwood’s indifference and hypocrisy that led to the death of allies and innocent people.

Due to the events of the Fall and it being broadcasted the enormous state of panic had spread throughout all of the kingdoms. The negative emotions in mass had attracted the Grimm and caused much havoc and loss throughout all of them and the worst to suffer from this mass hysteria was most likely Mistral due to its larger population and territory.

In V5 Lionheart had confirmed that Mistral losses were heavy and many of the local huntsmen including the Professors from Haven were killed in the initial grimm invasion that plagued Mistral following the fall of Beacon. After the initial panic had settled down the Mistral council had been employing Huntsmen in mass and restricted their activity to crucial and vital missions in high profile areas to ensure the safety and stability of the Kingdom.

Now the real question comes in where was Atlas?

In the world of remnants shorts  its confirmed that Mantle and Mistral have an alliance that eventually carried into Atlas. With that being said, where was Mistral’s ally during the fall out and what were they doing. We know in V5 that all Military Assets were recalled within the month prior to the battle of Haven. I know that the kingdoms are weary of Atlas at this point but given the state of the world after the fall, Mistral needed all the help they could get. As such Mistral would have to call upon the old alliance and have them honor their word and offer aid. 

Or at the very least transfer some assets over to Mistral to use it as needed. We have the base in Argus sure but that was just a forward border control base  that didn’t really help anybody. Prior to the recalling Ironwood had Winter gather intel on potential activity that would lead to a second fall of a huntsmen academy and he chose to do nothing. This is further proof of his hypocrisy and arrogance. Ironwood at this point is reading the military for war and with holding aid and support that was actually needed. 

His V4 self is a stark contrast to his V2&3 self as that version of himself was willing to manipulate and intervene in the affairs of other nations under the assumption that the ends justify the means and would see himself above the rules so long as it's for the greater good and stop the threat before it can escalate. That was exactly what Ironwood did at the end of V2 by stealing power from Oz and tried to enforce his own set of rules if it would prevent a disaster.

Now why did Ironwood not do the same thing with Mistral and try to prevent the potential fall of its academy regardless of the bad publicity that it would warrant? It's already been said by Ironwood that he doesn’t trust Leo to handle the situation at Mistral and based his dissection to close the borders on Winters report and decided to prepare for an potential attack on Atlas rather than sending a small task force to handle the threat at Mistral. 

Taking into consideration his plan for Amity it's quite possible that he wanted Leo to fail and Mistral to be ready to eat from his palm. In other words unless there is something to gain and benefit from he’s not going to do it.

Ironwood all the way till he was told the truth about Salem in V7 had a War is the Answer mentality and was hoarding everything and anything that would help sustain a long campaign as well as increasing the size of that force with the intent that  that the large numbers were enough to intimidate Salem and her faction into surrendering and eventual destruction. The only problem is that the people he needs were born in a time of relative peace.

Because of the 80 year age of peace that followed the Great War the Modern world of Remnant has had zero to no conflicts as large or damaging since that one war. There were small conflicts sure like the faunus war, the White fang terrorist cell, and the criminal underworld but they weren’t that much or a threat or concern to a majority of remnant it wasn’t until the Fall of Beacon that the foundation of this peace was shaken so intensely that the cracks started to show but it was still together if only held by a thread.

With the Peace in mind and the peoples faith still with the huntsman as their distrust for Atlas Military lingers no one in the world of remnant outside of Atlas would have any motivation or desire to mobilize for war let alone a war for a foreign leader of a foreign land that has recently come under suspicion. Ironwood was never going to be able to unite the Kingdoms and mobilize their people for his war after the fall of Beacon with Atlas being painted as the bad guy. Unless the situation went from worst to extreme.

Like if another academy were to fall with the same or greater results like Beacon. Then maybe people all around the world would consider following Ironwood’s lead and wipe out the threat before things can get even worse.

Because of this Ironwood had allowed Mistral and possibly the other Kingdoms to exhaust themselves so much that they would be unprepared for the next major Grimm invasion should they come after the next major hysteria induced panic. Panic like Ironwood’s original plan to unite the world and tell them about Salem causing the kingdoms to fall into further disarray only to be saved by the flying grace of Ironwood and his Military. And the only repayment for his help is that you join his fight.

I know this is all speculative and you can say Lionheart was the one who was responsible for mistrals problems after the fall, but remember Leo was the only Faunus on the council of a racist kingdom and only had one seat over the huntsmen and can only give out and approve mission assignments that would get them killed thus he had no real authority or power in Mistral  besides siding with the majority and even if he tried to talk the council into refusing Ironwoods help their racism wouldn’t listen to Leo and they would do the opposite and call for aid. 

But again Ironwood prior to the fall was willing to stop the threat at its source regardless of politics. But after the fall he had put all of his focus on preparing for war instead of helping people that needed his help at that moment. This may be due to his semblance(still dumb BTW) but ultimately he was focusing on his own needs first than the needs of others. Because of this he had ignored the issues of Mistral and failed to see the truth of what Lionheart was doing and had allowed Most if not all of the well trained and experienced huntsmen of that kingdom to die leaving the kingdom defenseless and unprepared for any conflict that would come.

 Like the Battle for Haven for example. Had Ironwood not recalled everyone back and had Winter and whatever Atlas personal that were with her its quite possible that the battle may never had happen, the truth about leo would have been discovered sooner and the genocide of Mistrals huntsmen wouldn’t have been as bad had Ironwood actually chose to help, Instead he  started to fall back and focus on the Amity Project and Atlas instead of spending any resource outside of them, due to a narrow focus to and putting everything on it just so he can have his Victory.

The Civil unrest in Mantle

A loved and respected leader will die by the side of his people: A feared and hated one will die by their hand. Short term closing the borders cloud have helped ease tensions between Atlas and the rest of the world but long term it had made things worse

Due to the fall of Beacon it's quite possible the initial attacks that came after can explain why Mantle's defensive wall was so destroyed and ruined by the time of V7. That means that potentially for almost over a year that wall has had no repairs or maintenance  and has had the bare minimum leaving the citizens in a state of constant peril and danger since the fall of beacon

This is further made worse when Ironwood closed off the borders and cut off the chain of supplies and trade not only to Atlas but also to Mantle as well making the kingdom suffer more than it had to. As the original capital, the rise of Atlas reduced Mantle to a shadow of its former self. Streets are run-down, technology is old, security defenses haven't been updated in years, and smog from the mines hangs heavy over the city. People struggle to eke out an existence, depend on dangerous mines for work and experience regular Grimm attacks that the city increasingly struggles to repel. Meanwhile, Atlas hangs in the sky above their heads; a constant reminder of the wealthy elite that is failing to share the wealth that Mantle creates, and a target of Mantle's growing resentment and anger at having been left so far behind.

Ironwood who is again allied with and a member of a secret circle that is supposed to keep the peace and prevent any social unrest that can cause a conflict.  Thus he should have tried to ease the tensions and made the conditions of Mantle better in order to maintain peace. Now I know it's not solely Ironwood’s fault for the state that Mantle is in as he hasn’t been in a position of power for long but still he should have focused on the people instead of preparing for a war that may have never come. A stark contrast to Ozpin’s way of preserving peace and handling threats

Because of his narrow focus and indifference he made things worse as he was only focusing on potential threats that have yet to come instead of focusing on the issues and preventing them before they escalated. After the fall, the embargo and closing of Borders Ironwood concerned himself with preparations for an assumed winnable war instead of trying to restore peace and keep the people on his side. Which is ironic as he was doing this to rally a large force and stop the threat but did not consider that he may have been pushing away potential troops and allies that he would have needed. And only stoked the people's frustrations 

This is mostly due to Ironwood never giving an estimate of time for how long the embargo and the borders would last as well as not giving a clear and believable reason as to why he was doing all of this in the first place. I know he was going to tell Mantle and the world about Salem eventually and he did in V7 but that was only because he was forced to and used it to take out potential threats by baiting them. This is also added with the fact that he really didn’t have any solid proof that would make the people believe him about Salem as well. Due to the frustration of the people it would just sound like made up propaganda and Ironwood shifting blame onto a fake enemy to drive people's attention onto something else. And yes the people believed it but remember they were being evacuated so i don’t think they were buying Ironwood's statement but were just glad that they were being saved.

And in the end it doesn’t even matter as ultimately Ironwood caved in to fear and decided to leave Mantle for dead. Which could have been avoided had Ironwood focused his attention to the needs of people rather than the needs of war. One of the constant themes of the show is that victory is not in strength or in mass numbers but within the small and willing hearts of those that will fight no matter what.

In conclusion Ironwood had played a pivotal role in contributing to all of the conflicts that plague the world of Remnant at present, even if it were minor role he nonetheless helped set the stage for the villains and Salem   

The reason why I say that; as stated in earlier sections: Despite all of his talk about the greater good for the world he really means the greater good of Atlas and by extension himself. He is prioritizing his kingdom above all else at the expense of the other kingdoms and exploits of their people for his kingdom's own personal gain. As well as with holding beneficial technology that could actually benefit and improve the living conditions and way of life of the other kingdoms.

Ironwood’s inability to trust and have faith in people and others to keep the peace ultimately led to him intervening in affairs that he had no right to and with his own belief that his way is what is best had caused the Fall of Beacon and the events and conflicts before and after it.

It was over before it started

Now the Question must be asked what was Ironwood’s plan?

Ironwood throughout the series believed that he could win against Salem, and by the end of volume 7 he still believed that he could win, but in reality he had already lost the moment he tried to start a war.

To quote Ruby as she asked Ozpin: what was Ironwood’s plan to stop Salem if he ever had one to begin with? As far back as Volume 2 to Volume 7 Ironwood’s ideas and plans to handle Salem seemed to be; gather a large force, blitz run her stronghold, and destroy her with WMD’s. Most of his plans stem from an appeal to force and intimidation tactics via large numbers with heavy armament. In any other circumstances this could have worked had it been a different kind of villain that wasn’t immortal. As V6 has revealed Salem can’t die through traditional means such as modern warfare thus making Ironwood’s plans and solutions moot and pointless. Once he is told the truth in V7 he still continues down the same path of thinking that has not only failed but enabled the villains goals as well. So it must be asked why does Ironwood not see that his way is flawed and that he was never going to win if he continues down this path?

 Ironwood's numerous conflicts throughout the series occur because he feels he does not need to follow the standards he sets for others; He demands people trust him while showing them none in return. He forces others to sacrifice much for the cause while giving up very little in return. He insists on loyalty when he has turned on others solely because they disagreed with him.

As Volume 7 progresses, he becomes willing to commit increasingly dubious actions in order to oppose Salem. He starts off by imposing a military embargo on Mantle despite the economic hardships said embargo is causing for the civilians on the ground and diverting resources that Mantle needs to rebuild its infrastructure to build a comm tower at Amity Colosseum. By the end of the volume, he's degenerated into declaring full martial law, abandoning Mantle to die, and either attacking or having arrested anyone who opposes him.

Salem and her faction were a tumor that can only be handled with the surgical precision of a scalpel not with the bulk of a fleet or large armies. The Huntsmen were that scalpel and to be specific the Huntsmen that Oz had chosen as they were meant to protect all people and prevent conflicts without personal bias or desire. Ironwood only acted in the self interest of Atlas and the benefits that he would gain from it

Ozpin’s priority had always been the people, no matter where they came from. However, I think he was once in Ironwood’s shoes.  I am pretty sure he tried everything, including the same things Ironwood did, and saw it fail horribly. Ozpin or at least the soul, has had centuries to millennia's of experience in fighting Salem and managing the world. The delicacy of the human mind and heart are something he is well acquainted with, and I think he already knew what type of person Ironwood was, or at least was becoming.  Near as I can tell, the big reason he kept Ironwood on at this point was because Ironwood had the resources and technology he needed to keep his plan moving forward and wouldn’t relinquish them.

Ozpin worked hard to maintain the peace and goodwill of the people.  Ironwood, so far, has not.  Having robot sentries on every corner without the concept of morals and stopping trade for a kingdom that can not easily generate its own resources, as well as hoarding those resources and preventing necessary repairs and aid to those people–those actions all show that he is not keeping this important aspect of leadership. He is not making sure that the people are on his side so when he needs them because he does not consider their needs as important unless they are in line with his own

Even with the Knowledge of the truth of Salem’s immortality he is still sacrificing everyone and everything else for nothing just to keep up the illusion that he is the hero and to keep his source of power high in the clouds away from anyone who really needs it

I may have been a little harsh on Ironwood for his actions, especially V7 and I understand the circumstances that led to escalation by the end of the volume.  He was making dubious decisions but he was trying to do better, he listened at times and tried to show an extension of trust, the kids with giving them the lamp back, and later with Robyn at the dinner. These were due to the positive influences of Oz.  He just fell back to old habits hard and turned to extremes when it became clear he had non control of what was happening by V7 end. He was struggling with old habits and opening up and was doing better that first part of the night a prime example of what the creators meant if Ironwood had been more open and trusting of others but when everything went down he was pushed over the edge in the latter half of the night cementing his fall and decent into an antagonist further making the problem worse as he has always done. This is mostly due to his primary source of influence; Atlas (which we can agree has been the biggest source of conflict in the show so far) and probably his lack of understanding and planning for what comes after all is said and done.

What did you think would happen?

The question must be asked; What happens after Salem? The fandom has pretty much each their own idea of what might happen after Salem is finally defeated. But do the characters know what happens after the war especially Ironwood? As the end of the hero’s journey goes; Nothings the same after you become a hero. And given Ironwood’s behavior and actions before his fall in Gravity, Ironwood seemed to have ambitions and plans in the works for the long run after Salem was no longer a threat. As stated before in I am Machine no one is truly altruistic to the point that they do something that doesn’t benefit them. So what exactly did Ironwood want after Salem was gone to the point that most if not all his actions and decisions were in the effort to reach and make those plans come true?

As stated in Broken Kingdom Ironwood doesn’t really have any personal desires or motivations that aren’t related to Atlas or the Heroes common goal to stop Salem. As far as we can tell Ironwood has no current family members at present and there's very little that tells us that he has anything in mind outside of either Atlas or Salem ,so what does Ironwood have to gain from this conflict?

All hail the conquering Hero

Ironwood’s biggest issue is that he has to be the center of everything, that he has to be in control. First he’s going to try and gain control with his army, while trying to wrangle anyone else back under his control. Then, when it becomes clear that anyone who has a plan that better and could work, he’s going to get competitive, come up with new and crazy superweapons to throw against the enemy in an attempt to prove that he can defeat Salem before the heroes can gather allies from across Remnant. He believes that He is strong, that He is brave, that He doesn’t need to run to anybody for help! He believes that he is the hero and is letting his self entitlement cloud his mind and it has gotten the better of him

 An In-Universe example of this false belief comes from RWBY: Amity Arena as it  gives bios to every character in the game compiled by the In-Universe developers. While many try to be objective, the ones representative of the Atlas Elite tend to demonstrate a notable bias, most prevalent with the General's. His bio is very defensive of him, calling him the "hero of our time" and that he wears the burden of the world on his shoulders, talking him up as a Hero with Bad Publicity. The bio goes as followed;

General Ironwood. The hero of our time and Atlas' greatest protector. Under the general, we have advanced to incredible heights, discovered new technologies, and created the world's first artificial intelligence. Though horrifyingly revealed at Amity Arena, Penny is our proud foray into sentient AI, and Ada is the culmination of the machine learning we have long developed in our labs.

As reviled as he was for his misguided attempt to protect Vale, how can the world fault our General when the culprits are out there? How can the victims be blamed for the sins of the perpetrators? Is incompetence somehow a greater sin than premeditated evil? Our General may have failed to protect Beacon, but he's not the one that hacked our weapons into hurting the innocent.

Yet... he wears that burden on his shoulders like he is alone in the world...

Ozpin, missing. Lionheart, dead. Theodore, uncertain. We say Atlas is the greatest, the mightiest... the city in the clouds, but what is first place when there is no competition? Yet, our kingdom and our General... we're the best chance that humanity's got... which scares us to death.

Menagerie?

...what about it?

After reading that you can probably see through the propaganda, hypocrisy and ego that are written in the bio. A key factor to note is that this was possibly made after the main heroes arrived in Atlas and before the election night. And since there's been no contact or travel between the kingdoms and Ironwood was aware of Leo's status by worst case scenario  it tells us that the heroes have shared everything with Ironwood in regards to those events concerning Haven.

 Since Ironwood is looked up to as a god by his subordinates and since he was the one of the only few to have known about them as well as to have the status to make any key choices since the app is made by atlas scientists contracted to the military. Thus Ironwood had used it and the blind loyalty of his loyalists to make propaganda and shift the blame from himself to something else as well as try to emotionally manipulate the people by making them sympathize with him while ignoring the truth.

He is not Remnant's only hope nor is he the best choice.

This is another example of his never my fault montra and he does things right and its further shown in the bio as it not only continues to discredit the other Headmasters(I am well aware of leo) but ignores all the good and actual heroism of other people like the Faunus of Menagerie as they are to the primary reason as to why Haven didn’t become the next Beacon and as stated before in an earlier section the opportunity for the Battle of Haven was in a way created by Ironwood who had chosen to flee and protect his city instead of preventing an attack like he had originally intended with Vale.

It may also show how much Ironwood believes in his own hype as it does paint him as some sort of de facto king of Atlas. Again he views himself as the chosen savior of the chosen people and that it is his destiny to rule and change the world as he sees fit. Or as Watts puts it the Giant that stands above all

I’m the Captain now

I think it's safe to say that almost everything he does is a twisted version of Ozpin's ways as well as to place himself as Remnant's ultimate leader as he believes he is the one that can ensure a safe and secure world. Ever since his debut he has undermined everything that Ozpin has done and stood for because he believes his ways aren’t efficient ( Or beneficial) to him and has been systematically taking power and control away from him and placing himself as the new big good.

He wants to be the New warrior king and change the world as he sees fit as he only sees Ozpin as either a failure or a hindrance to him and his plans. Combine that with his Atlas ideology and a lot of things make sense. I mentioned in the False chosen one that Ironwood may have been influenced and tried to emulate the Warrior king as to better rise and gain power and correct the supposed mistakes of Ozpin. Even though that he has claimed to be doing it for the greater good of all of Remnant but  he really means only Atlas and himself

A world Reborn in my image

A major factor to consider is that Ironwood is a by-product of Atlas that was a by-product of Ancient Mantle. Ironwood is essentially a living mouthpiece for Atlas. He pretty much the living embodiment of the kingdom if it were a character. That's the sad truth of Ironwood is that he is simply an extension of this toxic environment and tricked into believing that its this ideal society when  in truth it never was.  In other words a legacy of tyranny lives on through Ironwood

We’re all aware of the origins of Atlas and its rise to prominent power. It started out as Mantle that began with a handful of people that prospered by adapting to the harsh conditions by making advanced technology faster than the rest of the world. It eventually formed a trade  alliance with Mistral trading tech for food. A grimm  incident occurs and Mantle thought being cold emotionless robots was a perfect solution. It tried to force its toxic ideology onto other civilizations and was met with mixed results. The Great war happens they lose and all of their resources are spent forcing it to rebuild its economy that eventually gives way to Atlas

Now how does this affect Ironwood?

Well Mantle through its alliance with ancient Mistral possibly adopted their ideals of imperialism and expansion as Mistral was the world's largest territorial economic empire of its time. When it comes to the rise of an empire and the type they are as well as their need for expansion it can be summed up to these 3 

Economic empire

Ideological empire

Territorial empire

Due to Mantle's lack of essential resources like food and energy, its early days were more or less focused on establishing a strong economic trade empire in order to get the essential supplies needed to sustain life in solitas. After its great depression period after the War the kingdom's economy began to grow at a rapid rate that by the time the kingdom shifted to Atlas it had Remnants largest economic empire.

This is also an important factor to consider since the sad truth of it all is that as long people can make a stable income and support themselves, they are more than likely to turn a blind eye to any shady or immoral activities so long as there's something to gain. What does this have to do with Ironwood you ask? Well as his bio card said Ironwood has pretty much been proclaimed as the kingdoms benefactor for its prosperity. This may have been due to his Corperate alliance with The Schnee’s since it was Mostly Nicolas and Jaques as far as we know being the most prominent reason as to why Atlas has prospered. 

When Ironwood formed that alliance with the SDC it gave him at least half of the power and influence of the company that was truly responsible for the kingdom's wealth and claiming it as his own. Once he had gotten some control over the economy it was time to move onto the next step and increase the empire from economic to Ideological or Political expansion.

Empires change and adapt in order to satisfies their needs now that Ironwood is the de facto head of that empire and given what we know about him and Atlas it is quite possible that he has been indoctrinated to have this desire to create an empire for Atlas as the politics and ideologies of its people have given it a false sense of entitlement and need to have everything under their control.

When looking at it from V1 to V3, it looks as if Ironwood was trying to occupy without resorting to force then you're left asking the real questions like "Why is ironwood selling the people of Vale on Atlas military Technology?" "Why is it that when a breach happens in vale, Atlas Bots rush in?" "Why did Ironwood make a power play to become the security of the Vytal Tournament?" It all seems to point to the same thing, Ironwood wanted control over Vale

A section of Lyrics from the song “When it Falls” may help reveal Ironwoods true intentions since his introduction and to be honest they seem relevant only to him and given his actions this is mostly likely the truth as they go like this; 

“They play the part of allies

Claiming peace their only goal

But once the fight for power starts

They'll eat each other whole

Their iron gloves point fingers

They'll wage a war of blame

And mankind will wilt in pain”

As of V7 aren’t those words mostly relevant to Ironwood? After all, what has he done recently? He claims to be an ally with intentions of peace but he’s really trying to control those who buy that lie and escalates the situation to the extreme for no logical reason other than to set the stage for the next part in relation to the lyrics.

After all is said and done the fight for power will start and he wants to win and consume everyone before they can consume him. And as things go wrong he points his metal hands blaming everyone but himself as he tries to gain control and power, the world suffers.

Ever since his debut he has been trying to amass  Political power which would lead to a territorial empire under Atlasian control. Playing into the theory that he does want to be a better version of Oz he wouldn’t make the same mistakes that he assumed the king  did by letting the kingdoms remain independent instead of being under the control of one.

A king has his reign and then he dies

To continue on with the theory that he is essentially a bastardized version of Oz, Ironwood may have been trying to find ways as to make himself immortal 

Another reason as to why he would see Ozpin as inferior is due to the fact that for all his power he can’t stop himself from dying, or at least maintain the same amount of world power and status from his last life. This may have given Ironwood ideas and ambitions to pursue any methods that may yield results that may make him a true immortal version of Oz hence why he most likely authorized the research and development of the aura transfer technology as a means to artificial reincarnate till proper immortality was achieved.

This could also be another reason as to why he may have chosen the Penny project. As it could lead to a way of extending his life as a means of transhumanism; immortality through technology

To reiterate Ironwood doesn’t trust anyone to do things right so he micromanages everyone under his control and makes them dependent on him. This is best seen with Winter and Clover as Winter would side with a madman as opposed to siding with her sister and clover’s inability to think for himself led to his death. 

Due to his lack of faith in people Ironwood makes them less independent and make them rely on him as  he may believe if everyone is dependent on him then the more control that he will have over them as to better determine who is a threat as the people he controls are more or less robots now without a conscious or sense individuality and are less likely to commit evil acts. Similar to ancient Mantle’s anti life policies before the war.

If he believes that to be the case and since he only trusts himself to see it through he’s going to try and find ways to make him live as long as possible until his methods become autonomous. Because of his lack of faith for others Ironwood doesn’t understand or refuses to understand the fact that he is going to die one day and everything that he has ever accomplished will be undone by the ultimate victor; TIME.

This is sadly the likely outcome as everything changes through the passage of time. As time moves so does the advancement of decay upon the world. Ironwood is already dying by aging and all that he has achieved will be undone or outdone by others that will come after him. The same thing can be said for everyone else in the show as they already lost. 

Ruby, Oz, Cinder, even Salem herself have already lost to time. Everything they have or will achieve will be undone as well and one day they will all die. It’s just a matter of how and when. 

To better explain let's take a look at Epsilon’s final speech from RVB season 13;

“There are so many stories where some brave hero decides to give their life to save the day, and because of their sacrifice, the good guys win, the survivors all cheer, and everybody lives happily ever after. But the hero... never gets to see that ending. They'll never know if their sacrifice actually made a difference. They'll never know if the day was really saved. In the end, they just have to have faith.”

Does Ironwood have faith in anyone that's not under his control? 

People only do wrong when the perceived benefits outweigh the cost in that moment. Ironwood doesn’t just see an opportunity to stop Salem he also sees an opportunity to bring the world under Atlasian control with him at the top. Since he has amassed so much power and authority he sees himself above the rules that everyone respects and follows. Because of this Ironwood tries to hold unto that power because without he is nothing and would become a lesser and weaker being which would be an affront to his perfectionist ideologies

If your nothing without it then you don’t deserve it

Take away Ruby’s Silver eyes and what is she? Someone that will continue to fight no matter what

Take away Atlas from Ironwood and what is he? Nothing but a broken man who had this coming for a long time.

As I stated in I am power Ironwood by himself has nothing to contribute to the fight against Salem. Let's face it the only thing that he had going for him was the fact that he lead the Military and as we later find out that Military isn’t going to be useful against Salem since the key concept of the show since V1 was that there is no victory in strength but in the simpler things in life that start with simple and honest souls. 

How does this concern Ironwood? 

Well that's just it Ironwood was never going to win with his methods and he was never going to get the benefits that he wanted if he followed someone else with theirs. Again Ironwood had plans and ambitions after Salem that saw him as the ruler of the world instead of her, and controlled it so that a threat like her or any threat to his power would never come again. This is probably what he thought would happen before being told of her immortality. 

Now with the knowledge that he can’t destroy her and that she’s coming he decides to cut his losses and settle with ruling the city instead and leave the rest of the world in her mercy instead of accepting the fact that he is wrong and relinquishing power to someone that can handle the situation better. Remnant doesn’t need Ironwood to survive. This is the biggest problem with Ironwood that he thinks he is the hero so long as he is in control of Atlas. Because without it he is truly nothing and has defined his whole existence around it. And will continue to make whatever plans to keep himself in power and is willing to pay the price at the expense of others.

“What if all the plans you made,

Were not worth the price they paid?

Even with the lives you stole,

Still no closer to your...

Goal.”

He never cooled the fire but he still incites the crowd for he can't see what he has  become a crown with no kingdom

Ironwood had only played to win and he would laugh at the ones who lose while millions are shouting out for him to stop but he Still lit the fuse

He says he wants to fight but Then he always runs because he doesn't want to die yet he Still shoots the loaded gun escalating things for the worse

His refusal to see the faults in his own actions. Ironwood continually defaults to and relies on methods and actions that have repeatedly been proven to not work because he refuses to see the error in using said methods to begin with.

This isn’t your story James

One of the important aspects to remember is that this isn’t Ironwood’s story. His entire character and story revolves around the main protagonists and how he interacts with them and more importantly what role he played in it. Ironwood started out as a side character that ended up getting a lot of focus because the story of  Team RWBY and the show in general is to show how the last generation can fail the next and how that generation has to learn and grow so it can avoid the mistakes of the past. 

Before we delve further into Ironwood’s true character in the show let us explore whether or not he was an antagonistic or protagonistic force in the story. Keep in mind these terms are different from hero and villain. Below are several definitions and meanings for the 2 narrative characters types;

Antagonist

a person who actively opposes or is hostile to someone or something; an adversary.

a person who is opposed to, struggles against, or competes with another; opponent; adversary. the adversary of the hero or protagonist of a drama or other literary work

Protagonist

the leading character or one of the major characters in a drama, movie, novel, or other fictional text.

an advocate or champion of a particular cause or idea.

In modern literature, the protagonist drives the story forward by pursuing a goal. 

The protagonist of a story is sometimes called the main character. 

Since this is RWBY’s story and to an extent Oz’s, Ironwood(and Atlas to an extent) was always meant to be an antagonistic force in opposition to the show's true ideals of  heroism and saviors. 

The antagonist is the principal source of conflict for the protagonist. Often, the antagonist is a bad guy, a villain, but he doesn't necessarily have to be. He may just be someone who has a different agenda. Antagonists might be one person, a group, or even an animal.

Due to the beliefs that his methods are for the best even though they contradict the intentions that were thought to be shared by the heroes Ironwood was always going to become an Antagonist for the series at some point

Volume 7 slowly sees him fall into this, as his paranoia and determination to stop Salem cause him to perform increasingly questionable decisions for the greater good. While Qrow, Oscar, and Teams RWBY and JNPR support Ironwood, they increasingly debate the merit of doing so, given how concerned they're becoming with his behavior. When Cinder breaks into his office and plants a black queen, Ironwood sends Winter to forcefully take the Winter Maiden's powers, and he begins to question every decision he's made and speculate whether he's played right into Salem's hands. His confrontation with Team RWBY over their decision to leak intel to Robyn triggers the appearance of a Seer Grimm, forcing him into a verbal confrontation with Salem. With the discovery that the conflict with Watts and Tyrian distracted them from realizing they'd lost long-range sensors and that Salem is already on her way to Atlas, Ironwood snaps. He orders the arrest of Qrow, Oscar, and Teams RWBY and JNPR, and decides to abandon Mantle to die in an effort to prevent the two Relics and the Winter Maiden from falling into Salem's hands. Volume 7 ends with him and the protagonists actively opposed to each other, as his refusal to acknowledge that his methods are flawed and his opposition towards anyone who might stand in his way solidifies him as an antagonist.

The events of Volume 7 slowly but surely tear away at the positive aspects of his character as he succumbs to fear and paranoia, and questions whether Salem's strength comes from her ability to strip away her humanity. By the end of the volume, he has degenerated into a paranoid tyrant who abandons Mantle in favor of saving Atlas, is willing to kill a dying Winter Maiden to protect the Relics from Salem, and arrests the heroes for disagreeing with him. At the end of the volume, Oscar even points out that Ironwood's actions and current mentality make him no better than Salem.

 His character deconstructs the mindset of the Necessary Evil character archetype. He declares his willingness to sacrifice his reputation and humanity for the greater good by forcing others to sacrifice for his cause. Characters constantly question the morality of his choices and his own actions create consequences that later bite him in the ass. His lack of concern over his image and the negativity his actions generate serve only to assist Salem's plans and increasingly alienate him from the heroes. He appoints himself the judge of what counts as the "greater good", he neglects Mantle's security and makes it increasingly vulnerable to attack by viewing it as less important than Atlas. Oscar lampshades the deconstruction by pointing out that being willing to sacrifice all of Remnant just so "a few can live" is making him just as dangerous a threat as Salem.

In a way Salem and Ironwood are also foils to each other as they appear to be dark lords from their respective genres 

Ironwood being the syfy equivalent clad in white to convey the false message of order and peace while masking evil intentions and crimes 

Salem being the Fantasy equivalent clad in black to emanate a sense of Mystery and fear of the unknown while using it to her advantage

Discussed between Ironwood and Oscar. Ironwood spends Volume 7 utterly haunted by how Leo's fear of Salem destroyed him and endangered Mistral and Haven. He is so determined not to end up like Leo, that he doesn't realize what mistakes his own fear of Salem is causing. While Leo completely submitted to Salem and became her puppet, he has full self-awareness and knows exactly how far he's fallen and why. Ironwood cannot accept that he has any fear of Salem at all and interprets the problem as possessing "humanity". He believes Salem is a threat because she has none and speculates that the solution is to become the same. He becomes increasingly controlling over his kingdom and his allies; regardless of how much suffering his methods cause, he persists in believing it's for "the greater good". While Leo is willing to give up the Relic of Knowledge and his kingdom's Huntsmen, Ironwood is so determined to prevent Salem getting the Relics, his Huntsmen and the Winter Maiden, and thereby avoid Leo's mistakes, that he travels in the opposite direction, becoming a dangerous authoritarian instead of a spineless coward.

Ironwood has made it clear that he will use whatever means necessary to defeat Salem. When Team RWBY calls out his decision to raise Atlas out of Salem's reach, he calmly says he's aware that he is essentially damning Mantle to her wrath. He later tells Oscar that he is done letting others' opinions hold him back from doing what he thinks is right. The boy warns him that he'd become as dangerous as Salem herself like that; the general simply nods to himself but doesn't deny it.

This is who he has always been. The only difference is the more desperate he becomes, the more extremes he goes to to maintain the illusion he is strong and in control of the situation.

During Ozpin's speech, notice how this unique line of dialogue is purposely inserted over Ironwood's last scene of  Volume 7.

“Or will the person staring back at you be the very thing you should have feared from the start? I suppose we all find out... sooner or later.”

As the other parts of the speech are relevant to the other characters shown in the montage This specific line cements the Truth of Ironwood's character being a threat that was planned for a very long time. Going with the show's themes of Grey morality and the balance of light and dark, we are to learn of the possibility that with the potential to do great good also comes with the potential to do great evil. 

As we were focused on the obvious threats in the show like the grimm, the white fang, Cinder, and Salem we are tricked to neglect the obvious signs of evil intent that are hidden and growing  among the heroes. The real monsters of the world aren’t the ones with fangs and red eyes hiding under your bed, No the real monsters of the world look just like you and me. After all if we assume everyone is like us then how can we tell who the real monsters are, that are hiding in plain sight. 

Ironwood’s evil nature and antagonism  was subtle and growing under the skewed perception that he was the hero and that he was right. But this comes down to the fact that he is only in it for himself and what he has to gain from it. 

I understand that James Ironwood was a tragic character even from his introduction, and the seeds for his volume 7 turn were planted in volume 2. I eventually recognized that RT was setting up this pivotal plot point way back in the day and now they are harvesting what they had sown.  

Ironwood didn’t snap when he found out RWBY lied to him. He was content, even after he defeated Watts. He snapped as soon as he saw Cinder’s present. The Queen piece. He unraveled immediately and, sure, the discovery of RWBY’s lies didn’t help,  but it wasn’t the cause for Ironwood’s descent.

 He genuinely means well in opposing Salem and her forces, but his severe paranoia complex, exacerbated by the stress of being one of the only ones in the know about Salem and having to explain his actions to the skeptical populace and council, cause his decisions to degenerate over time. By the end of Volume 7, he becomes willing to abandon everyone in Mantle to die, violently lashes out at anyone who opposes him, and manages to undo all of the hard work he's accomplished by second-guessing his own actions.

James Ironwood is undoubtedly a fascinating character that has this certain appeal to most people. I  can understand Ironwood's viewpoint but it is not the same as forgiving or condoning as good. Sure, I thought him intervening in affairs that he had no right to was a skewed perception, but I understood where he was coming from. I thought him ignoring the concerns and advice of people was reckless, but I also kind of understood  his limitations and his upbringing. But in all honesty I was neutral about Ironwood ever since he debuted and didn’t think he had much to contribute to the story besides being the guy with an army along with the pride and arrogance that comes with.

Because of that Ironwood was always an antagonistic force in RWBY with ideals and plans that contradict the established ideals and motivations that are already shared with the world of Remnant. He just simply couldn’t fit in and when he tried he didn’t like it. When he tried to change it and take charge he only made things worse. Ironwood had potential to be good and a proper hero due the influence of Oz but his pride and ego that he got from Atlas got the better of him and now the show's true heroes will have to fix the problems that he has caused.

Summary

[kob131]

Rewatching volume 8 I can safely say that they kinda ruined Ironwood's character. To me they made him a cartoony villain by shooting the counsel guy and teaming up with Watts at the start of the volume, as well as him willing to blow up mantle even though Salem was gone. I think they should have taken their time in the volume making Ironwood a villain, Judgemental critter explains how he could have been better in her review. Buuut that's just my opinion

Then I figure you don’t mind if I go into Judgmental Critter’s Ironwood part?

‘Ironwood is an interestingly complex character, both kind and understanding but also stern and harsh.’

... That’s...not unique. Like, at all. That’s like every Sink or Swim Mentor or Stern Father figure. Fuck, Hank Hill came to mind.

‘He was the one who broke the news to Yang, being earnest and disappointed that yang was disqualified. But also put his foot down so there’s no protest from the girls.’

... So? This isn’t the aspect of him that Volumes 7 and 8 are being focused on and this is BEFORE his paranoia and trust issues got validated so of course he’s in a naturally better state.

‘Here’s a man who convinced himself that he built an army that couldn’t be beat.’

Wait, did you just...skip the part where he relates to Yang and implies he has PTSD, indicating he’s not exactly mentally well? ... What the fuck?

And you’d better be considering this when you come to Volume 8, after his army has been beaten and just got stretched thin.

‘In Volume 4, he stands kindly by Weiss’ side, stands up for her against the Atlas elite and when the girls meet him again-’

... *graps Judgmental Critter by the collar as they pass by.* Don’t think I didn’t notice that.

Jacques: You've never trusted anyone other than yourself!

Ironwood: (shouting) And for good reason!

Weiss covers her mouth with her hand as she gasps at the sound of Ironwood slamming his fist onto the desk.

Ironwood: If Oz had just listened to me from the start...

Jacques: You need to get a grip.

Ironwood: That's exactly what I'm doing. Our people need protection. By this time next week, the Kingdom of Atlas will be officially closing its borders. No one in; no one out. Without the council's permission.

Jacques: You mean, without your permission?

Ironwood: And if that becomes the case, I would think you'd want to be on my good side.

Funny you don’t mention this in your summary of him, considering this is portrayed as a deeply personal reveal of the man.

I also remember that you ignored what he said in Volume 2.

Glynda: Trouble sleeping?

Ironwood: (Looking back, gripping his shoulder with the other hand.) Arm was acting up.

Glynda: Of course, so logically, you got out of bed, dressed yourself completely and decided to gaze menacingly out into the distance. (Approaches all the way to his side, then looks at him concerned.) What's wrong?

Ironwood: I've trusted him for years. We both have. I just... I can't help but feel like he's keeping us in the dark.

Glynda: Don't be ridiculous! You know very well that we are not the ones in the dark.

Ironwood: (Laughs humorously.) That makes it worse! I refuse to believe that a man that I've trusted for so long would act so... passively.

Glynda: (Puts a reassuring hand on her friend's shoulder.) You're a good person, James. You've always done what you think is best for the people, even against strong protest. It's admirable. But it's high time you stopped talking about trust and started showing it. (Drops her hand as they stare into the distance together.) Ozpin has experience that the rest of us lack. And I think that's something worth remembering.

These things that connect Ironwood’s actions in the past and his actions in the future...

And you don’t mention them despite being big character moments for him? Maybe this is a coinc- 

‘He knelt to spoke to Oscar, which showed his dad energy!’

... *steams starts to rise from my face*

Ironwood: Without him here to guide us, all I can do is use my best judgment.

Behind him, Oscar shifts uncomfortably. As if sensing something, Ironwood stops and looks back.

Ironwood: What is it?

Oscar: Actually, Oz isn't completely gone.

Qrow: Uh, Oscar here is… is the next Ozpin.

Ironwood: Oz?

Smiling, Ironwood quickly and eagerly approaches Oscar, who looks nervous.

Ironwood: I'm so glad you're here. I didn't think you--

Oscar puts his hands up and interrupts Ironwood, as the latter crouches to Oscar's level.

Oscar: Not quite. He's kind of, um, gone... at the moment.

Ironwood's smile fades, and he lowers his head.

That wasn’t him acting like a dad, that was Ironwood being desperate, given a fleeting glimpse of hope that the man he respected and looked to above all others is...there, standing in front of him, where he can finally have an equal again.

That was...so blatant and obvious I am finding it hard to believe you’re not doing this intentionally.

“He spoke to Oscar as if he was a trusted ally despite missing Ozpin’s words of guidance!”

Oscar. Has. Ozpin. In. Him.

Ozpin. The man that James, AGAIN, respects and follows.

No. Fucking. Shit.

“He gave Team RWBY the Huntsman title and upgrades!”

‘Huntsmen’ in Atlas meaning ‘soldiers’. And that is STILL not contradictory to what he does later.

‘He was well meaning and kind...until he found out they lied to him.”

Which was bad of them...but they were also in fault when they treated Ozpin harshly and James did WORSE so what does that tell you?

‘His PTSD comes flooding back!’

...

......

...........

You skipped how he refused to trust the council, his PEERS, with the info about Amity or even Robin, whose entire issues with him could have been solved if he TALKED to her, all because of his trust issues.

You have completely shoved his trust-related skeletons into the closest and play up his more pitiable PTSD issues. You’re fucking Mary Sueing him.

‘Was all of it Team RWBY’s fault? They didn’t give him the truth but neither did Ozpin-’

Was it Team RWBY’s fault that the Fall of Beacon or Atlas’ issues happened? No! In fact, James was more culpable in both scenarios (if he listen to Ozpin then the machines COULDN’T attack Vale citizens and if he told the truth and listened to Team RWBY before he had no choice then he could have stopped all that shit!) than them. And just as Ironwood’s issues don’t excuse Team RWBY’s fuck ups- Ozpin’s issues don’t excuse James’ fuck ups.

‘Who can he trust? How many levels of precautions does he need to take?’

You know, I’d buy this shit if not for how the depth of his trust issues isn’t actually shown, how his issues with trust went beyond this and came around to how he was isolating himself. This is still trying to play pity for the man instead of seeing him for who he is.

‘We left Ironwood last Volume as a complex man whose filled dwith grief, guilt and fear-’

And what have we seen as the end result of these emotions time and time again in RWBY?

They cause the person to devole.

Hazel is filled with grief and used that to help justify his shit actions.

Ozpin is filled with guilt and let it distance himself from others.

Yang was filled with fear and couldn’t move on.

And Salem...Salem is all fucking three and we KNOW how she turned out.

The way that ‘complex man’ is portrayed is the same way one says a character is complex as an excuse to ignore their darker issues. She goes onto portray Volume 8′s beginning with Ironwood as somehow not in line with his ‘complexness’ when this has been an issue with him since Volume 2.

And as a special fuck you to that:

Do you have any idea how tempting Ironwood’s position is? To be hurt again and again by others as you try to defer to them? To see yourself as right time and time again but still struggling to see other’s point of view as valid? To resist the temptation to discard what EVERYONE says, to not care about what others say and carve your own path regardless of what others think, feel or say?

I have. Countless times and it is SO HARD to not do what Ironwood did. 

‘In his first scene, Ironwood crossed the line!’

Not really. From Ironwood’s point of view, Slate was standing in his way with Salem at his doorstep and in a worse shape than ever and he can’t afford to waste any time with him. Killing him is rather logical and why would Ironwood care? It’s right in his eyes and the morality of other people has only been chains to him.

‘This isn’t playing on his paranoia!’

Gee, what emotion is it that causes Paranoia again? ... Fear? And Ironwood did this out of what again? ... Fear of Salem?

How is it RWBY can bee so unsubtle to cause blunt force trauma on it’s audience and yet they STILL routinely fail to see it.

‘He’s just a shitty cartoon villain!’

Ah huh. Again, I heard the same about the P5 villains. And they all had real world counterpart (Madrame in particular can be compared to ROOSTER TEETH).

‘Cartoon villain’ is just a buzzword at this point.

‘His personality before was so much more intriguing!’

The personality where you chopped off the stuff that shows this coming?

Yeah headcanons tend to appear that way.

‘Everything he was just thrown away to give us a laughable shell of a character!’

AKA ‘Two Ironwoods’ right?

Newsflash- characters and people can change for the worst. People can reach this point and beyond for the same reasons as James did. Good people can devolve and change. And yet he still had his humanity. He still tried to hold back in some manner before he felt concerned even more. He never took joy in what he did. And he still cared for his people. 

To call all that effort just a ‘shell’ because you BLATANTLY cannot accept this change in a character enrages me beyond what text can show!

‘He didn’t develop into a colder, heartless man-’

Yes. He. Did.

He ignored his people’s concerns and feelings just for a greater goal. He treated people as a whole instead of individuals. He kept secrets more and more. He constantly questioned if his compromises gave Salem the advantage.

He did devolve. You just blinded yourself.

‘I could see this happening!’

Right, if the show jumped through X+1 hoops right?

‘But instead-’

No fuck you, I’m done.

God what is with these twins and pissing me the fuck off?

[remnantoforario]

Unmerry Men AKA The Problem With Robyn Hill

I’ve been sitting on this rant for a while. I’m sure there are people who have talked this topic to death since Volume 7 ended, and did a much better job than I am about to, but I still feel the need to throw my hat in the ring (or shoot my arrow at the target given the subject matter) and say definitively and without question: that Robyn Hill is a terrible character. 

Get some snacks. This is going to be a long one. 

Let me preface this rant by saying I don’t hate Robyn HIll...in CONCEPT. That last word is very important. 

The idea behind her character is a sound one: Atlas is characterized as a country with a VERY clear disparity between the rich (Atlas)

and the poor (Mantle)

So it makes perfect sense that there would be a Robin Hood (see what I did there) type character that would bridge this gap between the two and seek to make things equal, or at least a little less lopsided. As an idea this is great, but the problem (as with most everything in RWBY) is in the execution. 

Outside of Forrest extolling her praises in the back of a cop car in Chapter 2, the first time we see Robyn is when she stops Clover, Ruby, Qrow, and Penny from reaching the Amity tower site. 

During this introduction, she tries to coerce Clover into disclosing classified government information via her Semblance, and Penny has to expose her ambush tactics. Not the best first impression.

Now in a vacuum, this scene isn’t really that bad. Thanks to (clunky) exposition, we are already aware that there is friction between the military and the Happy Huntresses. As such it makes sense that we the audience first meet Robyn as an antagonistic force against RWBY and their allies.

The thing with this though is that all four of the writers of this volume forgot to lift the perception of Robyn being an antagonist until around the final third of the volume. Objectively, there is no reason anyone outside of her own group to want to trust or follow her. 

The M,K,K, & E are trying to position Ironwood and Robyn in the roles of the Sherriff of Nottingham and Robin Hood respectively. The main problem with this is that they fail to establish Ironwood as a tyrannical threat on par with the Sherriff. 

Does he make questionable decisions? Certainly. Are his choices morally wrong? In some cases, yes. But they are more often than not written in a way where the choices he makes are OBJECTIVELY best for everyone (even if they try to frame it otherwise). 

Closing the borders, hiding the Amity plan, diverting resources to FINISH said plan, and his other tactics (while at times misguided) were done in order to protect as many people as he could from Salem and her forces. They were all calculated risks that clearly took a mental and emotional toll on him. He’s a severely broken man trying to keep whatever he has left from falling apart, but everyone is working against him (including his own allies but that’s another story). 

This brings me back to Robyn. She is hailed as the “Hometown Hero of Mantle”, but all we ever do is see her take shots at Ironwood and Jacques and talk about how much the former ISN’T helping Mantle. My question to her, her hardcore cans, and CRWBY is “What has Robyn done to help Mantle?”. RWBYJNR and various talking heads mention how Robyn is helping the people of Mantle, but because the volume (seemed) so rushed to get to Salem’s arrival, we never see her doing anything that’s not directly tied to the plot. 

She’s not working on Mantle’s wall, she’s not in the streets talking to people, handing out medical supplies, giving away food, or anything that actively helps Mantle. We don’t even see her fight Grimm in the streets until the FINAL episodes of the volume. All she and her group do is actively antagonize the military and steal (which we never see them give to the poor). For someone hailed as the town’s hero, she doesn’t seem to really be doing anything to earn that title.   

After the election night massacre, she openly declares war on Ironwood essentially and begins stealing resources needed for the Amity project, until she is ultimately stopped by Blake and Yang. 

Now in theory I have no problem with Yang and Blake telling her about the Amity plan; my main hang up about it is that Robyn has done nothing to earn this trust. 

Until this point Robyn has been getting in their way as they try to reestablish global communications, but now they suddenly feel comfortable telling this sensitive information to a complete stranger and risking a leak even when they KNOW Tyrian is in the city? Instead of telling her that, why not tell her about Tyrian instead? I’m sure she would want justice for the people he killed. 

Then she is later invited to the Council meeting (despite not being a member) and made aware of classified information that she shouldn’t know of, as well as make a complete ass of herself and show why she probably shouldn’t have won in the first place. 

This leads to her finally believing Ironwood, but eventually that gets tossed out the window at the end of the volume where her actions almost directly lead to Clover’s death.  

As she, Qrow, and Clover are transporting Tyrian back to Atlas, Ironwood’s order to arrest RWBYJNRQO is issued. Now there are three things that are very important to keep in mind here after this order is issued: 

1. Clover is clearly conflicted about following this order. 

2. Qrow is calmly trying to talk things out. 

3. Robyn is NOT under arrest. 

Let me repeat that. ROBYN IS NOT UNDER ARREST.

So as Qrow is level headedly suggesting they all talk it out, Robyn (who again is NOT under arrest) starts a fight that results in Tyrian escaping his restraints, the plane going down (after Tyrian kills the pilot and co-pilot), Robyn herself being unconscious, and Clover being ultimately being murdered. 

Now tell me after all the information is presented, why we are supposed to care for this character? What have the writers done to position her as someone we should invest in? 

A lot of her accomplishments are told to us rather than shown, and whenever we do see her onscreen she’s mostly a nuisance that makes pretty much any situation she’s in worse. Yes, I know this is just one volume and she will obviously be a central character in V8 and possibly 9, but the damage has been done. Any attempt to salvage her will just be cleaning up the fall out from V7. 

Now since I’m not one of those people that likes to complain for the sake of it, I’ll voice my opinion on how Robyn could have been written better. 

The first thing we do is distance her from the Happy Huntresses. She will still be the leader, but that information won’t be revealed until AFTER the election. It’s not really a good look for a vigilante to try and run for a public office if they are still breaking the law. That’s like Bruce Wayne running for mayor of Gotham AS Batman (though the people would likely still vote for him). 

So as far as the public (including Ironwood and RWBYJNRQO) are concerned, Robyn is a normal Mantle city official and Joanna Greenleaf is the leader of the Huntresses. For those of you who don’t remember who she is (and I don’t blame you), this is Joanna Greenleaf: 

The second thing I’m going to do is give her a more established connection to Ironwood. My idea? Former military. Robyn was once a part of the Atlas military’s intelligence and recon division because of her lie detecting semblance. When she discovers corruption within the system (lets say something having to do with Faunus, the mines, Mantle, or the SDC) she exposes it but quickly becomes disillusioned with military life and is discharged. She then begins living in Mantle and becomes their representative. We can say this happened maybe five to ten years before the series itself starts. 

She served under Ironwood and has a deep respect for him, but does not agree with his decisions as defacto head of the Council. This is what leads to the friction between them. 

Next, we change up how she and the Huntresses are introduced in V7. When RWBYJNRQO arrive in Mantle the election race has only barely begun (we’re pushing it back). We see posters for Robyn and maybe hear snippets of an interview she is giving to a news station on one of the TVs. 

When the Grimm attack, instead of RWBYJNRQO running out to help immediately, they are cut off by the Happy Huntresses who quickly get rid of the monsters. Ruby and the others wonder who they are before the Huntresses scatter when Penny and the Ace-Ops arrive. The heroes are still arrested for stealing an airship and violating Atlas airspace (as they should have), but now there is some intrigue about who that group of women were. 

Forrest still gives his exposition, but leaves out Robyn because no one knows she’s their leader. 

When the gang arrive at the school they meet with Ironwood and Winter, but hear Ironwood complaining about “that woman” after having just finished a call on his scroll. 

Fast forward to the mine mission. Instead of Jacques showing up, this is where we gets their first full appearance from Robyn. She is brought via airship to the mine (along with an exasperated Winter and Penny) and begins to badger Ironwood about ducking their meeting, stating that Mantle still hasn’t received the supplies he promised days ago. You could also have her briefly greet the kids and Qrow before going back to argue with Ironwood. 

Things proceed as normal, but inbetween some of the bigger story events we see news reports of Robyn helping people around Mantle. Feeding the poor, cheering up the miners, handing out supplies, giving speeches, and other things to show that she really is the hero of the people. Not everything has to be directly tied to the plot, you can use extra devices like tv news and the like to expand on characters. They tried this in V7 but they didn’t go far enough with in my opinion. This would inform us more on Robyn’s character without her being the direct focus as well as give the audience an actual reason to get behind the things she says. 

The main aspect of Robyn’s character that I would focus on would be her relationship with Ironwood. Nothing romantic, just how their ideologies align (or don’t) and how they view each other. They respect one another. Robyn knows Ironwood is a good man, but she doesn’t fully understand why he’s doing the things that he is doing. She doesn’t know why he’s being so secretive. She wants to give him a chance, but he keeps denying her. 

On Ironwood’s part he knows that morally Robyn is in the right and genuinely wants to help everyone in both cities, but his paranoia will not allow him to simply tell her what is really going on. Salem’s reach is far and if she was able to turn Lionheart (one of Ozpin’s closest confidants) then she can get to anyone and that is frightening. 

This is why Robyn utilizes the Happy Huntresses. They are able to move outside the law and do the things she can’t (similar to Jim Gordon and Batman). She doesn’t want to condemn Ironwood because of all the good he’s done, but people are suffering and something needs to change.

Neither are wrong, but they can’t find common ground.  

I’d position Robyn more as a fringe type of character. She doesn’t directly intervene in the plot, but you know she’s always there bidding her time until she can be more prominent.

I have more ideas for her, but this post is long enough as it is so let’s just end it here. 

TLDR; Robyn Hill is a good character concept with horrible execution. Hopefully she will be somewhat better utilized in future volumes, or kill her off at the start of V8. At this point I’m good with either. 

[warsmith-38]

How I would do RWBY pt.9

Season nine

RWBY and JN(P)R and the jobbers are all prepping to take the fight to Salem.

Big military invasion is planned targeting the Grimmlands.

Atlas is used as staging ground.

Atlas military, Ilia’s White Fang, SDC militia, Raven’s bandits, Mistral defense force, Menagerie commandos, and more are there to help.

Everyone even vaguely connected to Ozpin’s Council sends aid.

Vacuo’s defenders will lightly pepper the southern coast to make it seem like they’re still planning on attacking from Vacuo.

Everyone has scenes together about emotions and fears and whatever.

Invasion begins.

Goes well. A beachhead is established, casualties are minimal, and grimm are curtailed rather easily.

Normandy was a success.

They have to do what they came to do as fast as possible before Salem’s grimm from the south cross the continent.

The distraction did its job, but now they’re on their way.

That’s when the offensive grinds to a halt because nothing is ever that fucking easy.

Skirmishes become common, but no greater progress is made.

Then the casualty reports keep coming in.

Everyone except Ozpin reads them.

Morale is lowering, which in turn makes the grimm stronger, which lowers morale further and so forth.

Ironwood says that they need a big symbolic victory to restore morale and get things back on track.

Idea is a blitz, push as hard and fast into the Grimmlands as possible, consolidating as much territory as possible along the way.

Myrmidon is the only real strategic obstacle in the way.

Time is of the essence so plan is a go.

Night before the blitz.

Ruby gives a speech to WBY and JN(P)R.

Says that they’re all the best friends she’s ever had and that, even with all the problems going on, the time they’ve spent together has been the best time of her life.

Everyone has a few more scenes together.

Tai has a moment with his girls.

Raven tries to further apologize to Yang in her own way.

Weiss and Winter have video call with Willow and jailtime Jacques.

Blake has a moment with her parents who came with the Menagerie Commandos.

JN(P)R vow to each other that they’re going to either get Pyrrha back or put her to permanent rest.

Qrow and Ruby have moment together.

Ruby says she’s both out of her mind terrified and incredibly excited to kick ass at the same time.

Qrow says that that’s about right for Summer’s daughter.

Day of the blitz.

Coalition forces charge forth with the fury of…an uninterrupted carpool. What the hell?

There’s no fucking grimm.

The entire army is advancing into hostile territory completely unopposed.

Jaune and Ironwood realize what’s happening at the same time.

Sometimes the best defense is an overwhelming fuck you of an offense.

Pyrrha had withdrawn as many grimm as she possibly could in the timeframe and condensed them into two massive combined hordes.

And she’s sending those two hordes, in a pincer maneuver, directly against the sides of the coalition blitz’ spearhead.

Swarms of grimm hit them like a tidal wave.

The offence halts right then and there.

Fighting is brutal and ground is taken and lost at an alarming rate.

RWBY is shining beacon of hope against the darkness.

Killing droves of grimm as fast as the laws of physics allow.

Pyrrha gets involved.

JN(P)R intercept her.

Fight goes similarly to the last two but with one major difference.

Jaune, in his desperation, takes a blade to the leg and wraps Pyrrha in a bear hug, flooding her with his healing aura just to see what happens.

He doesn’t know what the hell it’s going to do, if anything, but it’s all he has at this point.

Pyrrha tosses him off but is visibly stunned and starts convulsing.

Her human parts are being affected by Jaune’s healing.

This gives them enough time for Ruby to blast her with white fire.

Pyrrha gives Jaune a sad look of longing before she collapses into his arms, once again dead and fading away into the wind.

JNR is sad at seeing their friend die… again.

The grimm lose all cohesion and even begin infighting a little at the complete removal of coordination.

The blitz continues all the way to Salem’s Sanctum.

They encircle and lay siege.

Salem and Ozpin communicate.

It’s finally here, isn’t it? The moment they both’ve dreamed about.

Chaos or order. Which will win in the end?

The day of fate has fin’ly come.

The siege is going rather poorly after about a week or so.

No headway is being made on being able to directly assault the Sanctum.

Artillery has little to no effect due to a magic bubble shield.

Swarm of incredibly powerful grimm operate as a sort of moat preventing infantry incursions.

Flying grimm lead to similar results on aerial attacks.

RWBY and JN(P)R are involved in latest offensive.

It fails. Pretty hard too.

Every day that goes on the more people get killed by the grimm.

This lowers morale.

This causes more, stronger, grimm to show up.

Same problem as before the blitz but with even more stressed logistics.

Scouts report that the grimm horde from the south is going to show up in under a week.

The worst part is that it would take just over a week for coalition forces to pack up and retreat.

Goodie.

Cinder has a moment of actually having a conscious and says she has a solution.

She knows of a way past Salem’s defenses and directly into the Sanctum.

The Cavern of Remembrance. (Yes, I’m nabbing the name from KH2FM, roll with it)

Rumor has it is that it’s a tunnel full of vengeful spirits of the departed.

Many have gone mad attempting to go through it.

Tyrian was the last to make it through, probably because he was pretty crazy to begin with.

Salem does nothing with it because the vast majority of people that go through there don’t make it out and those that do are either easy enough to kill on the other side or are susceptible to recruitment.

Ozpin makes the plan to send a strike team through it.

Should they survive, Ozpin will have Raven open a portal to give them a clean shot at killing Salem.

Nobody really likes this plan but they have few alternatives.

Decide that RWBY, JN(P)R, and CEMN would be the best options for the strike team.

Most of them (particularly Ruby and Jaune) cringe at the idea of working side by side with Cinder but roll with it because Salem is a much higher priority.

The teams get ready to go off.

Tensions are high.

Cinder leads them to the entrance of the cavern.

Everyone takes a moment to steel themselves and enter.

The great majority of the walk through the cavern is just that, walking.

So far it’s just a fucking cave tunnel.

Ren and Nora disappear.

It’s a straight, almost featureless, tunnel so they have no idea what the hell just happened.

Emerald and Mercury disappear next. Then Weiss, then Jaune, then Blake, then Neo, then Penny.

Ruby, Cinder, and Yang are alone now.

Yang gets a little angry, thinking that Cinder set them up.

The argument stops when they see a completely out of place cottage door ahead of them.

They enter it and are shocked to see Summer Rose, happily sitting with a pot of tea ready to pour.

The cavern is a font of old magic. It allows those who enter it one chance to speak to the departed spirit of someone emotionally close to them. Not necessarily a loved one, but someone important, good or ill.

As it turns out this has the habit of often making people want to ‘reunite’ with their loved ones or get killed by the spirit of the one they hated.

Ren and Nora are talking to their respective parents. They tell them that they’ve made it after all.

Weiss is talking to her grandfather. Calls him an old fart that history will only remember as a huge cunt.

Blake is talking to Adam. Specifically, depressed Adam that has lost the psychopathic streak.

Penny is talking to herself, the version of her that Cinder killed. Very trippy and self-reflective.

Emerald is talking to her mother. The last genuinely good influence she’s ever had before going good.

Mercury is talking to (read: says three words to and then starts fighting) his father.

Neo is…okay not talking, but with Roman. He teases her for going legit.

Jaune is talking to Pyrrha. Big happy lovers’ reunion.

Conversations range from tear soaked reunions to vitriol filled shouting matches to straight up fights.

Important bits, aside from emotional closure are as follows:

Mercury doesn’t get his semblance back from papa but awakens what would have been a second one.

It’s Armstrong/Greed style body hardening.

Jaune and Pyrrha have a moment properly saying that they love each other but are cut off prematurely, showing that Salem has resurrected her again.

Jaune has a new plan.

Everyone either connects again with the deceased and gains new resolve, or get pumped by telling the dearly departed dickhead to fuck themselves.

Ruby and Yang get confused as to why Cinder is there with them.

Cinder mouths off like a rude fuck.

Summer scolds her and calls her ‘Cinder Rose’.

Do the plot-twist dance, c’mon. (This was the thing that the Mad Scientist tried to reveal to Ruby)

As it turns out, Cinder is Ruby’s long lost fraternal twin that was stolen by Salem and raised in a horrible orphanage until Salem could come and ‘save’ her.

It was almost a contest between Ozpin and Salem.

Ozpin’s kid living in a well-structured and sheltered place with Salem’s living in a shitty environment with constant hardship. The one who’s system made the better kid, wins.

C+R+Y mutual BSOD.

After a few good shouts and some crying Summer tells her girls that she’ll always love them and be proud of them.

Summer and the cottage fade away and C+R+Y are really unsure as to what to make of this revelation.

Cinder is in the worse emotional shape she’s been in in the series.

They all agree to keep it quiet and just get on with things.

Repress now, react later.

Eventually everyone gets through their meetings and meet up at the exit of the cavern.

They’re right at the base of the Sanctum with the entrance to it in front of them.

Ruby shares brief secret words with Neo, Blake, and Emerald as everyone else is distracted.

They send a radio signal, Raven opens a portal and she, TQ, Ironwood, Glynda, Winter, and Ozpin come through.

Everyone moves into the Sanctum.

They enter the main foyer and Salem is standing atop the stairs waiting for them all dramatic and shit.

Says thank you to Cinder for giving her the opportunity to kill Ozpin.

Cinder calls her a bitch.

Says that she’s going to kill her for her mother’s sake.

Salem says that that’s easier said than done.

Myrmidon attacks with a shitload of grimm, including very crude resurrections of Tyrian, Roman, Adam, and some other jobbers.

It’s almost insulting how poorly done they are compared to Myrmidon.

Salem put all her time and effort into Myrmidon.

Big battle royale extravaganza.

The various resurrected try and fuck with people psychologically. Roman saying he never loved Neo, Tyrian bragging about killing Summer, and such like that.

This works on no one and the resurrected get decked but at least they tried.

The Council, baring Ozpin, get tied up against grimm.

JN(P)R distract Myrmidon and get her away into a separate room.

RWBY and CEMN get at Salem directly.

Salem boss fight start.

JN(P)R manage to redo the plan to knock off Myrmidon’s helmet.

Myrmidon believes she knows what they’re planning to do.

JN(P)R know she knows this and have planned around that plan she planned against their plan.

It makes sense, shut up.

Jaune kisses her and floods her with as much healing semblance as he can.

She almost dies, y’know, again, but the grimm taint is healed away from both the healing semblance and Jaune’s aura jumpstarting her aura again with the power of love.

N(P)R’s aura’s flood into Pyrrha as well because friendship and jury rigging Penny’s artificial aura system.

Pyrrha is unconscious, scarred, and in very poor shape. But she’s alive again, truly.

Not that they’d try it, but attempting similar plans with the other resurrected would have just destroyed them due to their comparably shabby creation.

JNP(P)R’s story is now wrapped up.

Yay!

RWBY and CEMN vs. Salem is still going on.

Lots of fire of both orange and white.

Fuck it, black fire too from Salem.

Summons and hallucinations.

Rage mode and NANOMACHINES SON.

Clone decoys and illusions.

Salem is enraged that she’s losing, decides fuck it and starts just blowing shit up with magic.

Ozpin comes in with the assist when Salem has taken a few hits.

He wants to kill-steal like a noob.

Ruby smiles as her own plan has come together.

Fight goes on, big spectacle, you know the deal.

Big crazy god powers combating each other.

TL;DR Salem and Ozpin stab each other at the same time.

Ruby had Neo, Blake, and Emerald fuck with both of their perceptions with their semblances to as many degrees as they can, making mutually assured destruction… assured (shut up).

Ruby even brags to both of them about it.

“There is no need for gods that only take,” –Asura (A really angry dude)

Calls both Ozpin and Salem bitches.

Both are enraged but the prophesy is fulfilled. Only one can kill the other so both now die.

So die the two worst mass murderers in the history of the planet.

It’s a BIGASS explosion.

Ruby wakes up at home, hoping to unholy fucking hell that this whole thing was not just one long dream after the Fall of Beacon.

It wasn’t.

Everyone is there to see Ruby and tell her that, yes, Salem and Ozpin are super dead.

Everybody wins.

Everyone else lived (She’s especially happy to see Pyrrha) and even got her flowers.

The one that draws her eye is the one that people say is the newest, a black rose.

It has a note saying ‘Ruins of Beacon. One week. –C’.

One week passes.

Ruby goes to the ruins of Beacon, alone, armed as she usually is.

Cinder is waiting for her.

Ruby doesn’t really want to fight Cinder now. She’s even talked to whatever authorities remain about getting Cinder a level of amnesty for helping in the last couple seasons.

Cinder tries to bait her into getting angry and attacking her but Ruby calls her bluff and tells her to just be honest for once in her life.

Cinder says that due to her upbringing she needs to contextualize events in a specific way.

Ruby needs to beat her in a fight. Properly.

No berserk insanity, no grimm arm weaknesses, just the definitive one on one show of strength.

Only then can she accept the reality where it’s possible for her to be sister to such a good entity as Ruby.

Otherwise she’s just going to fuck off to parts unknown, content with her stupid worldview.

Ruby tells her to stop being such a chuunibyou, but admits that she still has some shit to work out herself and the best way she knows to do that is a fight.

Ruby vs. Cinder.

Vergil 3 motherfuckers.

The definitive, badass, rival match, season and series final boss fight.

The wheel of fate is turning, heaven or hell, let’s rock!

The fight goes through everything.

Going from shooting, to melee, to fire duel, back to melee, to hand-to-hand, ending in a MGS4 style exhausted slugfest, all interlaced with flashbacks and shit, culminating in a mutual cross-counter.

Final punch, both of them nail each other on the cheek.

They glare at each other for a second, each other’s fists in their faces.

Cinder falls (ha) over first.

Ruby declares victory before collapsing next to her.

They have an absolutely exhausted heart-to-heart.

They reflect on the events of the series and accept each other as sisters.

Cinder accepts the name, ‘Cinder Rose’.

Four months later.

World is recovering from the conflict well.

Grimm still exist.

As long as negative emotions exist, Salem’s grudge will also. But without centralized control, the grimm are just hyper-combative and aggressive animals that crop up now and again, but can be curtailed easily enough if direct threat is posed.

Hunters still need to exist, but grimm aren’t world ending level threat anymore.

RWBY has been enjoying a little time off together as they do minor logistical work.

JNP(P)R have been palling around doing the same as RWBY, very much enjoying having Pyrrha back.

Team CEMN is now official with its members working as a sort of penal squad to work off their respective sentences.

They’ve got house arrest in their downtime though.

Only exception is when they’re working or have supervision from someone trustworthy.

Better than prison or doing the hempen jig so... take what you can get.

Kingdoms use the framework of Ozpin’s surveillance system as a communication and connectivity network instead of a ‘big brother’ type system of control.

Big get together with everyone.

Beacon is about to reopen under Headmaster Qrow Branwen.

RWBY and JNP(P)R decide that getting the Hunter GED equivalent might be the best option for them, considering they’re infinitely more experienced than any first year has a right to be.

Agree to a grad-student type arrangement to still be involved, though.

Everyone’s having a good time. Everyone’s connecting and blowing off steam.

Ruby peaks out and goes off on her own for a particular reason.

Ruby has final moment of series, talking to Summer’s grave.

Turn around and sees all her friends, family, and teammates.

Says she loves them all, half talking to the audience as well.

Red Like Roses plays as it fades to statues of Team RWBY in a cathedral or altar type place.

Fin.

Season nine done.

War arc done.

Series done.

Boom-shakalaka.

 Season of mini-episodes mostly for the fluff, fun, and because I say so.

1. Cinder awkwardly bonding with her new family, despite her best efforts.

2. Raven having a moment with Tai and Qrow about Summer.

3. Pyrrha reuniting with her family post-resurrection and dealing with the fallout of Myrmidon.

4. Weiss and Blake visiting Jacques and Sienna in their respective prisons.

5. Ironwood, Glynda, and others talk about Ozpin, reflecting that he really was kind of an asshole.

6. Team CEMN on mission, very slowly becoming actual friends.

7. Team CFVY make plan to transfer back to Beacon during sparring match with SSSN.

8. Flashback episode for team RWBY when they were children and still had much to learn.

9. Ilia and Blake talking about the restructuring of the White Fang.

10. Un-incarcerated Schnees talking about the future of the company.

11. RWBY and CEMN little sparring fun for stress relief.

12. Flashback thing with team STRQ, going through their forming and breaking.

13. Cinder going on an apology tour. (Pyrrha still hates her guts but not enough to kill her).

14. Qrow and Raven have big over the top dork duel because they’re both dorks.

15. JNPR has moment of “Wow, we REALLY didn’t sign up for that but we made out fine enough,”

16. Team SSSN wondering just what the holy hell all that was about.

17. Ciel and Penny reaffirm their friendship with each other, even though their team is long gone.

18. Flashback to Salem and Ozpin’s original falling out, showing that they were assholes even back then.

19. RWBY are made official huntresses and start a proper career of grimm killing and peace keeping.

20. Flash forward a generation or three later and someone telling their kid/grandkid team RWBY’s story.

 I did this because I felt the need to and nobody could stop me. Too many aspects of the show pissed me off just a little too much and I know that all this amounts to is my insane ramblings, but I did it anyway. Will I ever be put in charge of an actual RWBY reboot or something of that measure? Fucking no. Will this change anyone’s minds? Probably not. Was this entertaining to read? I certainly hope so. But, in the end, I had a ton of fun doing this and have made the points I wanted to make. That’s just about all I care about in the end.

I regret nothing.

[real-jaune-isms]

RWBY Volume 8 Chapter 11 Review/Remix

Not the most action packed chapter we’ve ever had, and certainly not as dramatic as Chapter 11s from past Volumes. But this week had some wonderful surprises and existential dread and depression in equal measure and I think that’s a formula for a pretty damn good watch.

Despite the devastating energy bomb Oscar delivered last episode, we open with the city of Atlas overrun with tons of Grimm. The people are still hiding in the subway, fearing for their lives twice over now that Ironwood’s monologue is playing and showing just how off his rocker he is. Those in the crater mines take it far worse, though we see some of the humans and faunus who had previously seemed on edge with each other holding one another in solidarity and comfort. Fiona breaks down in tears and is pulled into a Happy Huntress group hug by Joanna and May, so it’s a small comfort to see they’re all still alive.

Ironwood and Winter walk the halls of Atlas command together, and Winter can’t help but notice the fearful reverence the general’s presence instills in lesser officers. The Ace Ops are talking things over in the wake of their boss’ ultimatum, and Elm is of the belief that Ironwood was just bluffing about nuking Mantle if he doesn’t get what he wants. Vine agrees it may very well be the kick in the pants Team RWBY and the others will need to finally see the right path, but we the audience are getting pretty sick of hearing this shtick. Marrow thinks Ironwood is taking this too far, and Harriet is just angrily indifferent about the whole thing. Ironwood rounds the corner and addresses the squad with their new orders: get some drones ready to drop the bomb. Winter asks why exactly they need to actually make those kind of preparations, and he makes it clear that he really does intend to remove Mantle from the equation if he is prompted to. He actually thinks committing this massacre, nay genocide, will make Penny more willing to return to his command if she no longer has an alternative job. No, dumbass, she’ll only want to defy and even kill you more! This is how he believes they will save Atlas, but Marrow has had more than enough and calls him on his shit for a line like that. All this is doing is helping Salem in her mission to divide and destroy the world, and it’s spitting in the face of everything Marrow thought the Atlas military stood for. Harriet threatens to clean his clock if he doesn’t shut up, and Vine again suggests that this would be a necessary sacrifice for the good of the Kingdom. Elm tries to agree, to say that this should be their top priority whether they like it or not, but Marrow has more to say. He can’t believe any of them actually buy the nonsense they’re spouting, and wants to know if there’s anything his teammates actually believe in anymore. With so many moral compromises, where do they draw the line of patriotism vs fascism? The faunus man gives a pretty good clincher to his tirade by calling his badge and rank nothing more than a collar. Say what you want about the writing of the faunus discrimination subplots in the prior volumes, I think this was pretty good. Ironwood isn’t about to let Marrow walk away from a rant like that without consequences and we can hear his cocking his gun. Marrow hears it too, but before he can react Winter comes in from his right with a sucker punch that knocks him to the floor. As she drops a knee on Marrow’s back to cuff him for insubordination we see Ironwood was a second away from shooting this man, one of his few trusted elite soldiers left, in the back of the head for an execution without mercy or hesitation. She just saved his goddamn life and that makes her an MVP for this Volume. The other Ace Ops realize this close encounter with death too, and they all share the same expression of shock fear dread and confusion. Not even Vine can hide how much he doesn’t like what could have just occurred. Winter says she’s going to take this “traitor” to the brig where he belongs and Ironwood allows her to leave and do so, only taking his finger off the trigger once they’ve walked past him. Those with a better understanding of trigger discipline than I could probably make something poignant out of that, so have at it if you can. What is abundantly clear to us is that Winter will be taking Marrow no such place. She has absolutely had enough and she’s about to desert with him in tow. The remaining three have to get back in line and spend a little time rethinking their positions on this job. Well, at least one of them will be, I don’t think Harriet is gonna change course after what she’s already done.

From one tense situation to another, we go to the Schnee manor dining room where Team RWBY are trying to figure out their next moves with Oscar and Emerald. They know they don’t want Ironwood getting his hands on Penny, but they don’t know what to do instead that won’t result in mass casualties. They don’t know that Robyn and Qrow have flown the coop and might come to their aid soon, and under Ironwood’s watch there’s no way to try and evacuate the people in the crater before he drops the bomb. It’s a real bad situation with no clear solutions or backup plans. Emerald can’t help but be snarky and say if the perpetual optimism engine that is Ruby can’t think of what to do then there’s no right answer at all. Weiss is annoyed that Em is giving them sass when they really don’t need any, but Yang is downright furious and her to GTFO if she doesn’t like trying to help them solve this. Emerald tenses up when Yang stomps towards her with clenched fists, and her hands go to her weapons in case she needs to defend herself. We know Yang wouldn’t actually throw a punch even if she’s mad like this, but Em doesn’t. Probably because the most substantial thing connecting the two of them was the time Emerald used her semblance to make Yang look like a heartless brute who would break a leg for no reason on live TV. Also Emerald doesn’t have the best role models for how to handle frustration... Oscar continues to insist they all just take a deep breath and remember the big picture rather than lose it over small disagreements, and reminds them that Em is going to be staying on their side cuz Salem won’t let her safely be anywhere else. But when he tries to reassure the group with a reminder that Oz is back to offer help too it just tenses the situation further. Ruby’s got her head in her arms on the table, and she’s really having a hard time of it all. Oscar muses about all the negative personal energies keeping them from a productive cohesion, and Ruby pops off. A day’s worth of their best efforts, hard fought battles and painful consequences, and nothing has gotten better. Just like at the start of the Volume, all they’ve been able to do is argue over what to try and do while Atlas heads towards its demise. Yang tries to put an encouraging hand on her shoulder but she brushes it off and runs out of the room in a huff. Everyone silently realizes how much they’ve fucked this up if Ruby is so hopeless and desperate, and Yang follows her sister out of the room.

Upstairs, Jaune is doing his best to boost Nora’s Aura and help her heal faster, but it’s not doing anything about her lightning scars. Those babies are here to stay, and I don’t mind it. It shows history, survival and a damn good story about what she’s been able to power through. Ren is sitting at the foot of the bed, and the best he’s able to offer is how glad he is Nora is okay. She seems indifferent and even passive aggressive at the diagnosis on her scars, claiming it’s just another example of her being classic dumb Nora. Ren tries to object that this wasn’t her being stupid or foolhardy, but she bites back at him with all the resentment she seems to have been holding in since they split ways yesterday. He’s got no right to say what it was or wasn’t, he wasn’t there to see it. He pushed away from her when things went wrong because he didn’t want to have to feel anything he thought would be too hard to deal with. Ren makes no effort to argue, he knows she’s right and he apologizes profusely for how he wronged both her and Jaune. He regrets the things he said to them, or more likely the things he said to Jaune out on the tundra since he and Nora haven’t exactly talked much. He admits he’s been mad at himself for not measuring up to their mentor figures in the Ace Ops, for how little he could help when Tyrian came a’ slashing at Robyn’s election rally, and for slipping up and letting Neo get away with the Lamp. Mentioning the rally of course gets Nora’s attention away from her pissed off brooding, and she does start to listen a little more sympathetically. Ren says that he tried to tunnel vision on getting stronger in the hopes it would mean he wouldn’t fail again and bring the team down with him. We know from Ironwood how bad tunnel vision is, so I’m glad Ren is realizing it was a bad choice. Ren has realized now that by doing all that he failed the worst of all, that being in his role as a member of this team and as a partner to Nora. The two of them lock eyes, and Jaune notices the deeper meaning behind this prolonged eye contact and knows he should make himself scarce for now so they can have this more important conversation sans his third wheeling ass. Good boy, but a bit over the top excusing himself.

All Nora can find the words to ask is why Ren hadn’t said anything about these personal doubts sooner so they could try and deal with it and grow as a team, and he says he wanted to try and solve it himself because it was his problem and he was the one dragging the group down because of it. She disagrees on the grounds of her own perceived failings, being silly of mind and strong of muscle and little else of value. Ren won’t hear that kind of self depreciation sitting down, so he moves further up the bed to sit by her lap. He tries his best to give her affirmations by rephrasing her qualities as great things but she’s just not willing to hear it... until he gets a little more passionate about it than he may have meant to. These are the things he loves about her. Because he loves her. Lie Ren tells Nora Valkyrie “I love you”. Nora knows in her heart he really means that, but she has some things she wants to get off her chest. In the single sentence of backstory we get, her mom apparently abandoned her and fled from a Grimm attack before she ended up in Kuroyuri meeting Ren. SInce then they’ve always been an inseparable pair, and she wouldn’t give up a day of that for anything. But now she realizes she needs some time to really learn who she is as her own person and fighter, and going back to being as close as they were wouldn’t allow that kind of growth. Because Nora loves Ren too, always has. And she can tell their separate missions have done him some good too, but she needs a little more time before she’s ready to be the partner a great guy like him deserves. She just wants to know if that kind of request is okay with him. He puts a hand against her cheek and lovingly wipes away the tear she had shed. Of course that’s okay. He’s proud of her for being mindful of her own happiness and growth, and is willing to put the relationship they both very much look forward to having on hold while she grows as a person. This is a very healthy dynamic and all meming aside we really love to see it portrayed so naturally and acceptably in media. And for good wholesome measure, Ren Boops Nora. They laugh and smile and press their foreheads together because Rooster Teeth loves showing us that as a sign of proximity and intimate comfort.

Cutting to something far less happy, Qrow is retrieving Harbinger and Robyn’s gauntlet crossbow from a locker in what I assume might be evidence lockup. He asks Robyn if she’s got the security cameras running on loop, presumably so they can sneak through the halls undetected, but she is currently distracted. At least one screen is feeding audio of Ironwood’s threat to Mantle, and others are showing he really is gearing up to do so. Qrow tries to reassure her by resolutely saying they’ll stop him before he has the chance to, but she doesn’t seem to pleased with that plan. Regardless, they make their way through the halls and head for an elevator to take them up to the Academy. After avoiding being spotted by guards, they make it to the elevator but Robyn stops Qrow before he can hit the call button. She tries to advocate for a better way to solve this, he insists there isn’t one. Robyn says it’s not just about Qrow so it isn’t his choice alone to make what is or isn’t the only solution. Qrow just keeps insisting that this is what he’s gonna do and when he does it’ll all be safe and over with, but Robyn tries to suggest success isn’t guaranteed and if they fail it’ll only doom hundreds more than if they try something else. Qrow doesn’t give a damn, he just yells that Ironwood deserves to be killed, because in case the pronoun game was too hard Qrow is dead set on doing a murder. Robyn claps a hand over Qrow’s mouth and pushes him against the wall because they ARE still trying not to get caught remember? I really have to admit on my first watch I thought this was gonna be an eruption of some kind of romantic tension I just hadn’t noticed til now and she was going to shut him up with a kiss. But no, thank god they didn’t pull that tired trick. After making sure the coast really is clear, she gets to the heart of things. She can tell Qrow is in pain, he’s mourning, and its a shroud he’s well accustomed to. But don’t act like this is righteous justice for the people at large, Qrow wants blood on his hands purely for personal vengeance. She acknowledges that Clover had a lot of qualities worth looking up to the way Qrow had, but she thinks that at the end of the day Qrow has proven to be the better man and the better Huntsman. I feel like she could have phrased that a touch better so as to not speak quite so ill of the recently deceased, but the pep talk is there. He’s got the will to fight for what he believes is the right course of action rather than just what a higher up says he needs to, and that is the sort of strength of character that’s worth a whole lot in this world, so she hopes he won’t go abandoning it now that the going is even rougher. He seems to be calmed and inspired by this, but before any more words are said the elevator pings that it’s stopping on this floor so the two ready their weapons to fight whoever emerges. The doors open, but we have the perspective of whoever is inside looking out to see the two hunters drop their guard in confusion. As that is the end of that scene we will not be finding out who they saw for at least another week, but I think it’s most likely to be Winter and Marrow and the four of them will form an unlikely alliance.

Back in Schnee manor, Yang reaches the foyer to see Ruby sitting on the stairs clutching a banister. Instead of going right up to her Yang goes past to take a look at the collapsed suit of armor. She’s heard by now how Ruby and the others managed to kill the Hound, and tries to give her little sis amused props for doing what the elder sibling couldn’t. Instead Ruby just asks if Yang knows what they saw inside the Grimm. Yang says she does, and tenses up like she wants to brush past this very depressing topic Ruby is hinting at. Ruby is having none of that and just says what we’ve all been thinking. Summer Rose was most certainly turned into a Grimm too. Fearing the possibility in her head was one thing, but to hear Ruby say it aloud with a voice so hollow and hopeless is too much and Yang falls to her knees sobbing in a second flat. Yang tries to wipe the tears away, to be calm and strong like always, but Ruby isn’t stopping. They know Salem used to want Silver Eyed Warriors dead because of Maria’s brush with death years ago, but now Salem wants Ruby brought in alive and it seems obvious why. So why wouldn’t it be the case that Summer was the turning point, that fighting her was when Salem realized she could do so much more with her mortal foes? Ruby has had enough of lying to themselves for the sake of optimistic hope, her hope that Amity could get a message out got them nowhere but further failure and she blames herself for being childish. Yang takes her hand and assures her that it wasn’t childishness but rather optimism and hope. Those are things they desperately need in this struggle, but to be blindly optimistic can certainly be bad so they need to be smart about which risks they take. Ruby still isn’t about to concede this point because the risk she took was a failure and their message didn’t bring any help. I should like to remind the reader/viewer that it took about a week for Team RWBY to get from Mistral to Atlas and this message went out... 12 hours ago? Maybe 16? You’re giving up the ghost a little soon there sweetie, though they do need that help ASAP so better late than never isn’t really a viable option. Yang reminds Ruby that her plan was a bust too, but she kept trying to do good things that weren’t part of the plan and they did some good there. Summer took a risk too, by leaving for the mission she never came back from. And there’s little question that went according to plan either, but she still did her best and Yang still considers Summer her hero. As she embraces her little sister, I get the strong feeling that Summer isn’t the only Rose she considers her hero either... and by the tears that start welling up in Ruby’s eyes she clearly knows that.

Their sweet moment is shattered by the sound of equally shattered glass, and Jaune comes rushing down the stairs to tell them to get outside immediately. Penny woke up and the virus is in control again to make her head for the Vault without delay. Ruby bursts into her path to beg her to stop, and it does get her to start struggling against her digital orders. She begs to be stopped, and Ruby wraps her arms around her because honestly she’s just trying her best and with a weapon like Crescent Rose she’s gotta have some upper body strength. But that’s pretty meaningless against Penny’s rocket boots as she takes off with Ruby in tow. Blake and Ren use Gambol Shroud and Storm Flower (thank god for the grappling hook upgrade last Volume) to try and pull her down by each arm with the rest of their teams providing tug of war style support. Weiss uses a black glyph to really hold her in place once her feet are on the ground again. Before anyone can figure out what to do to properly subdue her Penny uses her magic to summon a cold vortex and blow them all off guard so she can start flying away again, still repeating her orders to open the Vault and self-terminate, though now she sounds emotional and conflicted about it due to her mental struggle. Before she can get any farther, a new set of chains grab her shoulders. Emerald has joined in, and even if it was a small gesture I found myself very enthusiastic to see her pitching in for the rescue. She yells for someone to do something already, and Jaune lets go of Blake’s side of the struggle (guess it would have been off balance if him Nora and Oscar were all helping Ren) to boost Weiss’ Aura so she can make a stronger inertia glyph. Back on the ground, Ruby hugs Penny again and asks how she can help her friend. And Penny says Ruby should kill her. If she does, Penny guarantees Ruby will be the one she gives the Winter Maiden powers to. None of the group like hearing this idea one little bit, but she thinks it’s the only way since she can’t fight the virus. But once again Nora swoops in with the sage words about it only being a part of you and not letting that be the end of it. Penny’s more than just a robot receiving orders, she’s got human spirit and willpower that’s been resisting for so long. This gets the gears in Ruby’s head turning and she realizes the human part can be what saves her. Jaune needs to boost her Aura, which he rushes over to do immediately. It seems to do the trick, and her soul is doing a much better job of keeping the virus contained, though it’s not gone forever. Everyone comes in for a happy group huddle, and she is assured that she is far more than a machine and that humanity is what will keep her going in spite of the remaining virus. It’s a very soft and touching moment. 

Then Emerald has something to say. They’re wrong... about being in the same place they started yesterday. They’ve made progress even though they can’t quite see it right now. They’ve taken some hits, and she admits some of that has been her fault, but that’s war so you gotta roll with the punches and fight on. She just really won’t like it if they give up the moment she decides she’ll fight by their side, okay?! It’s not like she likes these friendly, kind, understanding and emotionally complex fellow teens that are willing to take her in, baka!!! Oscar points out that she’s admitted she wants to stay with them and they all have a happy laugh realizing she’s got a softer side after all. Oscar helps her back to her feet, then addresses the group. Ozpin has some things he wants to say to them all, if they’re willing to hear it. They all share a look and decide that yes, they will listen. Oz comes forth and immediately launches into a speech about a fairy tale. Typical. We can presume these are further details about “The Girl who Fell Through the World”, and he says that girl took her grand trip to run away from consequences of a choice she has to make. But her problems only grow because the initial issue was never resolved. That’s the very thing he’s done here, his problem being the consequences of the truth and his past coming to light. He regrets not trusting them with the whole story and he regrets retreating into Oscar’s mind when he was found out. The group decides they understand where he was coming from a bit since in that interim they had to make some impossible choices about trust too. Trusting in someone is a risk, and they decide they’ll take that risk on him one more time. From the look of things, that second chance is going to Emerald too, and I hope she makes them proud. Penny winces again and it’s clear that one way or the other they will need to take her to the Vault. Ruby thinks on that for a second and realizes that’s actually worth a shot considering who they have at their disposal and the likelihood of it not going exactly how Ironwood thinks it will. To that end we see Ironwood down in the Vault receiving a call from Ruby saying Penny will be there. He sets the stipulation that Penny meet him at the entrance of the Academy and she has to come alone. I’m sure no green haired illusionist will play a hand in whether or not she really is alone... But either way there will be unexpected company because Watts hooked up a broken Scroll to the wiring of an Atlas robot to listen in on Ironwood’s call and know where the meeting will be. Neo arrives in the alley where the doctor and Cinder waiting, and it seems miss Fall has a scheme to get the ice cream psycho precisely what she’s demanding of them.

But what exactly these carefully laid plans will be has to wait a little while, cuz that’s the end for this week. Great job all around for this well balanced episode with many kinds of scenes and many ways to make my heart hurt...

[rachetmath]

RWBY: Heroes

Ironwood: *with his gun out* My plan is flawless. If we harness the staff of creations power, we can go higher away from danger, away form Salem. Why can’t any of you see that this is the best course of action!?

Jaune: Are you serious?

Oscar: Your plan involves abandoning millions- no trillions of people. All so you can stay safe!

Ironwood: I am doing what I feel is best for everyone.

Jaune: Oh no, what you’re doing is just in-moral, twisted, and selfish.

Oscar: Just like Lion.

Ironwood: Don’t you dare compare me to that coward!

Oscar: But that who you’re acting like James! Someone who is willing to leave everyone he cares about, to forsake the people who trusted him, all so he can avoid having to face something he’s afraid of fighting, like every coward would.

Ironwood: We all have to make sacr-

Jaune: Ah just shut up with that drivel! Yeah, you’re right, we have to take risk in order to gain something in return, but that is never guaranteed. And since we’re talking sacrifices, what have you done, other than sitting on your ass? Because if wasn’t for Ruby, Mantle wouldn’t know about Tyrain. If it wasn’t for Yang and Blake, Robyn wouldn’t have wanted to listen to you in the first place. And if wasn’t for Weiss, you would never have been able to regain the council’s trust.

Ironwood: That doesn’t change the fact that you and your friends lied to me about the lamp, Robyn-

Oscar: Because we were afraid this would happen. That you would go to extreme links to keep your kingdom safe, even if it means unnecessary actions, and that’s what you’re doing general. You’re being the same heartless monster everyone has claimed you to be. But you can change that. All you have to do is clam down and face your fears head on.

Ironwood: *sigh* What do you children know about war? Huh. What do you boys know about chaos? Sure, its hell but no, it is a never-ending cycle. Even without Salem, people wage war against each other, just for any kind of reason. Weather it’s about race, religion, power- you name it, war is nothing but pain, struggle, misfortune, and misery. Nothing but madness and gunfire. I’ve seen many men- men who were stronger than I was, men who were willing to forfeit their LIVES for their kingdom. You say I don’t know sacrifice! *rips half of his shirt, revealing the metal half of his body* Look at me. All of this was because I wanted to serve my kingdom, my people and this was the result. And guess what, people not only survived to thrive, they were able to live their lives happy and carefree, thanks to expense of those who fought for them.  So, before you talk to me about sacrifice, duty, and madness. I suggest you get a weapon and fight for long tiring hours. Hearing thousand of people scream in agony, wondering if your friends will survive only to find out later, they died in battle! Watching as hundreds of soldiers turn from civilized people to wild wolves on the battlefield. Only then you can tell me what’s right or wrong.

Jaune and Oscar grew silent. Until Jaune started laughing, louder and louder, making Ironwood step back as Jaune approaches forward.

Jaune: You’re right. Yes-yes-yes you are correct my good man. But let me ask you something. Once you move Atlas higher into the air, if Salem managed to break into your kingdom once, what makes you think she won’t do it again? Hell how will you survive?

Ironwood: We’ll be ready. Once we’re-

Jaune: If someone other then Winter got the maiden powers and took the relic, leaving the city to plummet down to the ground, what would you do? If there was no more food or supplies to help anyone what would you do?

Ironwood: I… I-I-I

Jaune: W-what’s the matter James? It’s a simple question. Come on, answer me, tell me, or are you starting to realize what I’m saying?

Ironwood: No. I-it doesn’t matter. Atlas will never fail. We have the most advanced technology that the entire world could ever hope to imagen. We have strength in numbers, and intelligence. We will prevail.

Jaune: Maybe. But not for long. No kingdom is without its flaws. You may have all the advancements but doesn’t help in a war especially against Salem. All Salem would have to do is learn every aspect, every dark corner and turn to anyone, who hates your guts, against you. And after this ordeal, trust me, she knows how pick ém.

Ironwood: … … … …

Jaune: You have two options; you can run away, continue leaving Mantle to fend for itself; Or, stand your ground and fight. Cause either way Salem will do whatever it takes to get what she wants. Even if it’s means killing millions of people.

Ironwood: … *shaking his gun his while aimed at Jaune’s head*

Jaune: I know what you’re going through. You feel defeated. Confused. Lied to. You’re wondering, right now, that every choice you made, was it really the right one or was it even yours to begin with. We know what that’s like, because we’ve been through it. I didn’t take it as well as you did though. At first, I went crazy, I drove one of us away, and I almost lost myself. I felt so alone. As if everything I’ve been through- everything she has been through, was all left in vein. But you want to know how I got through that pain. Through my team and more importantly I embraced it. Through patience and love, I accepted the truth for what it was, and I moved on.

Ironwood: *trying to focus while shaking*

Jaune: And you can too. All you have to do is let go.

Ironwood: Ahhhh *fires his gun but misses his shot completely. He proceeds to kneel on the ground while trying to hold back tears* What am I supposed to do, Jaune? Mantle is in danger; Salem is—what can I do!? I need to be to what is required of me. I am a hero to these people and as such I have to keep them safe! If I can’t do that then what kind hero or leader can I be!?

Oscar: *walks towards Ironwood and reaches his hand out to him* Simple. You can still be a hero. Just let us help you. And be the man who Ozpin believes you are.

Jaune: We are all huntsmen and huntresses. Alone we’re strong, but together we’re unbeatable. Right?

Ironwood: *looks up but doesn’t see Jaune and Oscar but Ozpin and Glynda. It blinks a few times and snaps back into reality with a smile* Yes, we are. *takes Oscar’s hand and rises up from the ground*

[itsclydebitches]

None of them liked Ironwoods growingly tyrannical actions, it's the whole reason Ruby lies to him, he looked shady as hell. They are shown very clearly uncomfortable with what he's turned Atlas into in the First episode. It's just that at the end of Volime 7 he crossed the line.

The key words there are “first episode.” I’ve mentioned on other posts that if the plot had simply continued the forward momentum of the group being disgusted with Ironwood’s choices and working against him (hiding out in the city, gathering like-minded allies, etc.) then we would have been golden. Ironwood is Volume 7’s antagonist. There, done. The problem is what starts in the second episode. Our basic events are as follows:

The group (and audience) learn that Ironwood has arguably justified reasons for everything “shady as hell” that he’s done. The embargo? They are at war with Salem and people have been stealing resources since our introductory trailers (Blake). Soldiers in the streets? That first episode showed that grimm are attacking defenseless civilians and, if the soldiers hadn’t been there to fend the grimm off prior to Penny’s arrival, they likely would have died. Taking resources? That’s to re-establish global communications and enact a plan to stop Salem for good, freeing the world from the danger she presents. 

However, they’re still morally gray choices which our group could have opposed… but they didn’t. They join Ironwood as public allies (standing with Clover and Penny against Robyn), as Inner Circle allies (they learn all of Ironwood’s plans—and we learn that he never lied to them), as huntsmen (it’s his power as general that gives them their licenses), and as fellow soldiers (they are indistinguishable from the Ace Ops in the missions they conduct). Now toss in a bunch of other connections like living in his academy, taking his weapon upgrades, and carrying the Relic. They might not like his actions, but they’re certainly doing everything possible to support and reap the benefits of them. 

Ruby does lie to him… which two in the group oppose (however lackluster that was). Yang and Oscar both question the wisdom of doing the very thing they punished Ozpin for. Ren also develops a strong (if quiet) alliance with Ironwood that will carry into Volume 8... until his semblance changed and he forgot about it. 

During all this there are efforts—mostly through Nora—to condemn Ironwood for his choices. How can you continue to hurt the people like this? Same answer as above: because he believes a short-term struggle is worth the long-term victory. Nora doesn’t agree… but Ruby, the leader, does. She pushes Ironwood to finish Amity somehow.

Which is an incredibly strange stance to take considering she knows that amassing a world-wide army will not defeat Salem. If the group wants Ironwood to stop hurting Mantle, all they have to do is tell him that Salem is immortal… but they don’t. They let him continue under this false belief, despite having more information about this war than he does and despite that information being the key to stopping the harm he’s enacting.

The arc of the volume is not the group choosing to trust Ironwood and then realizing he actually isn’t trustworthy, it’s the group (or rather, Ruby) deciding not to trust Ironwood and then realizing he is trustworthy. We get that climactic scene of Ruby and Oscar simultaneously realizing they should tell him about Salem and Oscar apologizing for keeping that secret in the first place. 

 Note that this occurs after they’ve talked him into telling Mantle about her. So not only is the group not made up of mindless subordinates being ordered about by a powerful general—it’s their advice Ironwood listens to—but now they’ve put an entire city in the position they were in during Volume 6. We’re told, via Ozpin’s arc, that telling people about Salem without including the issue of her immortality is a horrific thing to do. Those like Qrow have supposedly “wasted” their lives fighting an impossible war and the fandom has argued strongly that Ozpin has manipulated everyone involved in this fight by not giving them the full picture. Yet now, the group has spent months keeping that information from Ironwood when his questionable choices are based on that ignorance, and they’ve talked him into telling half his population that Salem exists and they should rise up to fight her… but not the pesky detail that she’s immortal. They did to Ironwood and all of Mantle exactly what Ozpin did to them.

Immediately after hearing that they’ve kept this secret from him the entire time they’ve been here (which he takes very well) Ironwood captures one of their main villains, loses his arm in the process, learns that two in the group have outright betrayed him to a political enemy, learns that despite all their best efforts Cinder has just waltzed into his office, learns that Salem herself is on her way and their defenses are already gone, knows that everyone is exhausted from a major battle… so when he decides to take all of Atlas, the majority of Mantle, and the Relics/Maiden they have to try and get out of Salem’s reach… Ruby says no. What’s her plan? She doesn’t have one. You’re just not allowed to leave.

The problem with the writing is it wants us to believe two contradictory things at once. Looking back, Ironwood is meant to be seen as an unambiguously bad guy in Volume 7, which we know because of scenes like Winter’s fight wherein she condemns him for everything he did in Volume 7, not just Volume 8 stuff like threatening to bomb Mantle. Yet at the same time, we’re simultaneously meant to believe that the group is made up of unambiguously good people who function as direct contrasts to Ironwood. Given what we got, these two things cannot coexist! Either Ironwood was a good man who the heroes backed for an entire volume and there’s no acknowledgment of that, or Ironwood was a bad man… who the heroes backed for an entire volume and there’s no acknowledgment of that either. If the group’s defense is, “We knew he was shady as hell. We knew what he was doing was wrong. We knew he was the bad guy here… but we still helped him maintain power, forward his plans, and reap the benefits of the flawed system for months on end”… that’s really bad. “I supported, assisted, and benefited from the guy who was shady as hell, but that’s fine because I felt uncomfortable about it the whole time” is not the hot take the fandom wants it to be. We cannot make these broad, sweeping statements about how the Atlas military—merged with its huntsmen—is an Evil Thing and then show scenes like, say, Jaune using his military grade huntsmen license to convince a bunch of civilians to follow his evacuation plan. The heroes cannot be Good and Pure while supporting the supposed villains and their systems; or, the villains cannot be purely Bad and Evil if they’re supported by the heroes.

The reality is that RWBY is badly written and this sort of simplistic, inconsistent writing doesn’t lend itself to a topic as complex as this one. To be frank, we don’t even know enough to make informed decisions about these actions because the world building is nearly nonexistent. What are these “resources” and how are the resources to patch a hole in the wall the same as the resources used to make Amity Tower into a world-wide communication device? How much power does Ironwood actually have and what other decisions has he made that impact Mantle? We never hear about any policies to explain things like the poor conditions, or the slum areas with the faunus. Why are the civilians so against the soldiers patrolling when we don’t see them abusing the public in any way, but we do see the grimm threatening them on the regular? Why does Ruby want Amity built so badly—willing to hurt Mantle to do it—when she knows a bigger army isn’t the answer/that telling people about Salem has almost always led to panic and betrayal? Is there really any difference between huntsmen and soldiers here? And if the answer is, “Yes. Huntsmen aren’t beholden to any power. That’s a good thing because following orders is Bad. They do what they think is best” than what are we supposed to make of someone like Rhodes who, apparently, did what he thought was best? If he’d been beholden to some superior there might have been a system in place to help Cinder. As it was, he was left to his own devices and a lot of fans are furious with the solution he, as one flawed individual, came up with. We simply don’t have a good picture of this world and when we do, things constantly contradict. It’s good for huntsmen to make their own choices, but only when Ruby does it, not Rhodes. It’s bad for heroes to keep the Salem secret and tell lies to their allies, but only when Ozpin does it, not Ruby. It’s bad for someone to try and save who they’ve got, but only when Ironwood does it, not Ruby, who apparently left Atlas after failing to create portals for her Uncle, Robyn, the Ace Ops, Pietro, Maria, and an entire army.

The way that the fandom gets around these problems—because too few are willing to just acknowledge that they are problems and RWBY is shoddily written—is by simplistically comparing RWBY’s military to a real world one. I cannot tell you how many posts I’ve come across that amount to, “Imagine thinking the teenage girls are the bad guys when a military general is right there, being a military general 😒 ” Those posts imply that fans like me are too stupid (too brainwashed, too close to “bootlickers”) to be critical of the military, but I assure you, that’s as far from true as can be. Those posts are trying to conflate real life politics with a fantasy story whose world looks nothing like our own. The is not a question of being critical of the military, it’s a question of being critical of RWBY as that fictional text… and that fiction never established any of the military problems we deal with in the real world. It might have (very easily), but it didn’t. Is Ironwood leveraging his people to conquer others or go after wealth? No, his world has literal, unambiguously evil monsters to fight. Does he amass power out of a desire to control the people? No, he lays out his exact thoughts on how these measures will help protect against those monsters and a witch. Does the military abandon its soldiers after war, leaving them with few resources and fewer prospects? No, we never see anyone struggling in that manner and one of the most prominent tragedies—Yang losing a limb—is answered by Ironwood personally sending a replacement to her home. Is the military at least built around propaganda, painting civilians an inaccurate picture of Freedom and Glory to convince them to fight? No, we see no propaganda, Ironwood—since Volume 2—has been focused on replacing people with robots and our entire story is built around one child’s desire to fight the exact same battle. Why do you want to be a huntress, Ruby? Because I want to help people! And that goal is never painted as a naïve outlook that Ruby becomes disillusioned with. Posts like the one mentioned above bank 100% on the reader mapping real life military criticism onto RWBY… rather than actually looking at the world RWBY built, what choices the characters make, the amount of information we’re given (little), and whether that in any way reflects our current, political problems. It doesn’t. 

I’m never going to pretend there weren’t problems with Ironwood’s decisions. In fact, I love that this was actually a conflict in Volume 3 that gave both sides a fair shake: is it better to scare people and have an army at the ready to defend them, or is it better to keep them in the dark and potentially be defenseless? Ironwood’s kind heart bumping up against extreme measures is what made him compelling, especially when the story was having him grow in the “right” direction (AKA, listening to Ozpin). His treatment of Penny is another big issue, creating a whole ass person to serve as a military defense tool. That’s horrifying! So he’s absolutely had his problems long before the writing had him turn into a trigger-happy murderer, but part of the issue here is that the writing doesn’t acknowledge those problems in other characters. If Ironwood is “shady as hell” for forwarding a military agenda and using military resources… then so is Ruby, the leader who backed that for months. If Ironwood is “shady as hell” for funding the creation of a person to defend his kingdom… then so is Pietro, the scientist who not only built Penny, but came up with the idea in the first place. He’s not some defenseless victim who was forced by the evil Ironwood to create something morally reprehensible, he suggested it! The same way Winter wasn’t some defenseless victim who was forced by the evil Ironwood to go along with these plans. She supported them, agreed to be his Maiden, and was the first to suggest martial law! Yet Ruby, Pietro, Winter and their like are all presented as unambiguously Good People, whereas Ironwood is presented as the unambiguous Bad Guy—and when a lot of fans went, “But you’re not writing him like a Bad Guy? Especially when we compare him to the heroes?” we got his sudden, OOC murder streak in Volume 8. But it doesn’t work. Either the group is made up of morally gray/bad people because they did the things our antagonist Ironwood did, or Ironwood is not the morally gray/bad person the show insists he is (prior to Volume 8) because he did the same things as our heroes. You cannot give us that plot, those choices, that agency and insist on both at once. This problem has existed ever since we got an entire volume about how simplistically evil Ozpin is for keeping this secret… only for Ruby to immediately turn around and keep it herself, with no acknowledgement that either a) Ozpin wasn’t the bad guy then or b) Ruby is as bad as he is. But the show wants Ruby to be the Good Person in every situation, no matter how much she models her behavior after those she deems her enemies, and Ironwood’s arc only increased that problem tenfold.

[strykingback]

Ok... Gotta say my Farewell to Vol 8. So If you dont like  what Im about to say best click off now or ignore it.

Ok so you decided to click on it,  Alrighty brace yourself 

This entire Arc was just fucking horrendous. No joke, this entire arc was just garbage entirely, no joke. The way how they made Ironwood into a cartoon villain making him into some albeist joke of people who are diagnosed with ADHD, PTSD, Actual Amputees’, etc. This was meant to be A FUCKING WAR ARC!!!

Which means I expected these few things from this Arc even though I was not watching it.

- Plenty of Character Deaths ranging from Main, Secondary, and Tertiary Characters.

- Stakes at An All New High. 

- Characters being forced to make tough decisions or risks that fail or pay off.

- Uneasy Alliances being forged.

- Tensions between Team RWBY, Ironwoods Group, and Salems. 

-SALEM TEARING ATLAS AND MANTLE A NEW ONE. 

- THE VILLIANS ACTUALLY FUCKING WIN THIS VOLUME. 

Instead We Got: 

-Ruby’s Group BEING INSIDE THE FUCKING HOUSE LIKE IN VOLUME 5 BARELY DOING FUCK ALL!!!

- Ironwood being “villainized” even further instead of turning him into a morally-grey villain. 

- Team RWBY “winning” through plot armor and bad writing like the Mary Sues they are. 

- Bumbleby Ship-Baiting... AGAIN. (Seriously. . . fuck off) (No hate to anyone who ships BB but at this point it was seriously getting annoying and tiring)

- Salem Just Getting Merked... NOT ONCE FOLKS. BUT TWICE!!!

- The Hound Getting Merked.....

Seriously no joke, this was such a bullshit, deadbeat volume. No joke it makes me so frustrated to see that this entire Volume was fucked up to no end. Yangs and Rubys argument did not feel like an actual fucking argument. 

What I expect from an argument was four things.

- Calling them Out On Their Actions. 

- Person A and B Debating About their Actions/Decisions which said argument intensifies. 

- Person A or B Starts a fight after saying something that pisses one of them off

-  Fight Between A and B, Totally Optional to have a bystander such as C or D end the Fight. 

Instead we get....a simple Argument that barely intensifies and only has Yang calling Ruby out on her abilities being a leader of a team. We should have Ruby also calling out Yang for sharing the information to Robyn and her “Happy Huntresses.” Which should’ve escalated to the point where Ruby says.  “Well that Gung-Ho Attitude is what caused you to lose your Arm!!” 

or Yang saying: 

“Well If you didn’t decide to...Oh I dont know have our faces pasted on EVERY VIRTUAL BOARD IN ATLAS FOR YOUR SHIT DECISIONS!” 

Not to mention to have Blake ,Weiss, and the Rest of ORNJ just look in awe or shock.... at seeing them argue to the point where they start fighting SERIOUSLY THATS WHAT A FUCKING ARGUMENT IS MEANT TO FEEL LIKE IN A WAR ARC!!!!

Moving on from that... anyways Cinders Past was just so so so SO LAZY.....

No joke her past was so boring it was to the point where I found it just uninteresting at all. Yet that brings up a good point hat I said once and I will say again. “How Come the FNDM praises Women that get beaten and show love to them rather than Men who also get abused like Adam whose EYE WAS BRANDED and MERCURY WHOSE LEGS WERE BROKEN BY THE FEMUR NO LESS.”

No joke for her it was just... a shock collar and she was berated verbally.....You know this actually makes Ellie from Last of Us Part 2 Look Better than Cinders. (Yeah I went there!)

Like if you want to do Twisted Cinderella with some RWBY Vibes.... heres how you do it. 

- Have Cinder be in Awe at the Sight of a Huntsman or Huntress fighting which inspires her to be a Huntress when Reeves finally tells her she can be one. 

- Show that Reeves does care about her and when he falls ill and dies Cinder is berated even more by the twins and the proprietor where she was enslaved. 

- What Finally causes her to snap and kill everyone was when she finds out her “sisters” burned her Academy Approval letter on their mothers order causing her to kill and murder which she is later on arrested and then bailed out by Watts who leads her to Salem. 

Seriously DO IT FUCKING RIGHT ESPECIALLY  WHEN IT COMES TO CINDER WHOSE PAST WAS IN SHADOWS FOR 8 WHOLE FUCKING YEARS.

8 YEARS AND YOU DROP IT LIKE A RAW PIECE LAMB CHOP!!!

Finally SALEM. Oh God how did they fuck up with Salem?! I will admit there was some moments that spooked me. However it was not enough to make me feel nervous for the characters as a whole. 

Like for example I expected her to wipe the floor with Atlas’ forces and just seriously showing destruction and chaos arriving. Instead last season it looked like she was JUST APPROACHING THE CITY. 

Which would have been a “Race Against The Clock/War” Volume since Salem would have begun her destruction of Atlas and even forcing her way into Atlas.... and then suddenly Hazel performs a Heel-Face-Turn that suddenly screams BS because seriously he should’ve had some sort of a better redemption that felt built up, then she gets  BURNED THEN NUKED BY OZPINS MAGICAL CANE OF SUPERPOWERED BULLSHIT. Which Held enough magic to unleash it....which could have been used during the BATTLE OF BEACON. However, I wont complain about it why?

Cause, I think the major reason is because If he were to use it in there he would be revealing Beacon’s Relic Vault as well to Cinder which she can use to open it and take the Relic of Choice. Which I believe was a pragmatic choice because you also have to think of the people who are still trying to escape or evacuating at the moment. 

Now the ultimate disrespectful thing the CRWBY did for their “Design a Grimm” contest was the Sulfur Fish. 

THIS DESIGN WAS SICK, AND THE ABILITIES WAS JUST JAW DROPPINGLY COOL!

However what does CRWBY do instead of giving a Full Scene where we see its Forms or attacking other soldiers/people. 

It gets... *Drumroll*

A Cameo sequence...thats it. A Cameo....Wow CRWBY you are shit. Just absolutely shit at writing and even giving the winner of the Design-A-Grimm Contest Winner an actual shot...while you overwork your animators giving Anxiety Disorders or PTSD. Great Show. 

 TL;DR: RWBY Volume 8 was one of the most boring, shittiest, and a snoozefest of a volume with such bad writing that it makes even watching The Last of Us Part II look good! 

If you are planning on dropping RWBY let me offer you an Alternative. 

Say hello to Meta Runner! A series that I find to be a favorite of mine and one that is actually better than RWBY’s garbage ass bullshit writing. 

To give you a brief synopsis, This series follows Tari a girl who wakes up in Silica City without any memory of what has happened except some brief flashbacks. To which TasCorp the antagonistic corporation seeks to use her for entertainment, while there is a mystery element about a famous gamer gone missing... and its up to Tari and the help of a Resistance force to find out this mystery. 

This series is done by Glitch Studios which many do know them as...drumroll please!  *drumroll*

The Youtubers SMG4! Who is well known for doing GMOD Shitposts! 

Its actually quite relieving to see a series that these two brothers actually want to share with us! They dont want to do it for money or for anything just for the sake of a good story! 

AND THATS WHAT I LIKE!

Oh did I forget to mention that Meta Runner is backed by:  Epic Games

Crunchyroll 

AMD Lastly.... and hold onto your butts...

THE AUSTRALIAN GOVERNMENT!!!

You know you hit it big WHEN THE GOVERNMENT BACKS YOUR SERIES!!! Come On you cant help but smile at that! So far the Third Season is being worked on at the moment but no release date at the moment so it could be sometime this year or next year. 

So if you have any plans on watching that I highly recommend giving it a watch. Anyways 

Fuck RWBY Volume 8. Fuck the Canon. Fuck Everything about RWBY!