#thetis did no hate patroclus

[corvid-ghost]

I am Eugammon of Cyrene, Ovid and Madeline Miller's biggest haters

[harleyyquinnsgf]

sometimes i wonder if thetis maybe wasn’t a little bitch how achilles wouldn’t have had to go to troy and patroclus wouldn’t have gone either and they’d be alive and happy and back living with chiron and they’d get married and live happily ever after but NOOOOO thetis is literally the #1 patroclus hater and i hate her

[kittzuxp]

Honestly i am NOT a Thetis hater. The comfort of knowing that she isn’t like this in the iliad is just nice.

(Spoilers)

I haven’t even read the iliad yet and from what i see from tsoa (which i remind myself isnt ‘canon’ so i ignore it) she is a godess who loved her son. Her son that would become greater than all.

I think she might have heard of how and why achilles dies from the fates so that’s probably why she dislikes* Patroclus. She does not want her boy to die in this way, she wants him to be glorious because he deserves it.

So she meets him and is blinded by the prophecy, she does not look past that, all she would see regardless of how equally glorious and brilliant Patroclus was would be the reason why her son would die at war, i think.

*“In the book it’s clear that she hates him!! Wdym dislikes??!!111” ok so, in plain text it might say ‘hate’ but by how it is shown i see it more as dislike, indifference, — after the scyros arc— tolerance . Because if she just disliked him for no fucking reason that would just be— bad writing — but anyways, i’m going off topic. I think she begrudgingly tolerates Patroclus because her son likes him, she might already know of their downfall — she tries to separate them, in hopes of him moving on, in hopes of his fate changing but is doesn’t work— but Achilles desires for them to be together, so she doesn’t object again.

I think of Patroclus and Thetis in tsoa to have more of a ‘ in-laws dislike-tolerate’ dynamic because, let’s be honest, madeline made Thetis be a bitchy (homophobic?) mother for probably no reason and i am just delulu at this point. So that is what i choose to believe

Boo and tomato me all you want i just thought i might share an opinion.

[thedevilsrain]

me reading the song of achilles: oh well thetis is a very complicated character, I can feel some sympathy for her, i'm sure at some point she'll come around and t—

[wolfythewitch]

Hiui it is 8am and I'm on the zcholl bus and my broam has not shut up about them

There's a lot of discourse about the achilles portrayal in the song of achilles which I agree with for the most part because the sanitization I feel erases the suffering of women and slaves the period was built on by minimizing the raping and violent nature of war hero achilles that Homer wrote - - however, I don't think tsoa ought to be read as a stand alone; tsoa is entirely written from patroclus' pov and I think that idealisation of the man is brilliant because of how grossly codependent they were

I think I really liked one redditors take on it, being [in context of 'the silence of girls'; a breseis pov of the iliad, where in achilles participated in the culture which used her as a bed slave of war] The tsoa protector achilles which defended women who mattered to him and was endlessly devoted, and the achilles that was complacent in the ritualistic abuse of the women he enslaved by pillaging their homes are both coexisting, and possibly one and the same

I personally view the Greek cast as sort of vocaloids, they're tools by which we understand the culture of the ancients, the way we envision their interactions is just a means for our practicing the pragmatics of how we come to understand the period

Okay frankly I'm not the best person to discuss this because I've only read like half of tsoa, but there's two disagreements I have I guess, based on what I Have read

One, as much it's not meant to be a standalone or something like that (to me, it is meant to be a standalone), because of its popularity in contemporary media it is being taken as one, and many people will have Achilles and Patroclus' image forever frozen as tsoa' portrayal. God knows how many comments I've gotten on my videos treating tsoa as fact. I can't really blame the author for that, but it is what it is.

Two, the idealization of man through patroclus' eyes would hold more weight if himself was not changed for the narrative either. Patroclus was a soldier, he was a healer, and he also had his fair share of women (who he slept with). Both of them did. Violence was not shied from, and slave women were war prizes. There are these insidious little rewrites throughout the story to further the narrative of Achilles and Patroclus' only loving each other, and in turn erasing what they've done to the other women in the story. (Taking in slave women because they wanted to save them is. A choice.) Deidamia in the myths, they range from at best her and Achilles falling in love to the point of intimacy, and at worst Achilles raping her. In tsoa, Thetis forced Achilles to sleep with her. Deidamia also forced Patroclus to sleep with her. That flip in the narrative is kind of fucked up, seeing as how both in the myths and in tsoa Peleus raped Thetis.

Trying to make a statement that it is written through the idealized eyes of man, well it doesn't really work here. If anything, it feels more like an author writing with the intent of not having her MCs be morally reprehensible. So Patroclus cares when the plot demands it (saving briseis, outrage when she is taken away. Asking Achilles to save the other slave girls) and not when it doesn't affect him (talking about his mother nonchalantly, questioning why thetis hated Peleus when he also acknowledged how Peleus was involved in her rape).

[jules-ln]

Tbh I hate when people say that Thetis was such a perfect mom in the Iliad

Like no she wasn't?

Like you have the contrast of the Gods just being silly and having fun versus the suffering and death of the humans, like the men and women aren't more than the Gods' toys

So when people say"Thetis was a good mom to Achilles" No???

First of all, a good mom would've told Achilles that no, wishing death on all your comrades because you can't have your play thing anymore isn't good, so what she did? She went and asked for the thing that ultimately ends up causing the death of her son because of a tantrum he had

And then there's the part when she tells Achilles that he should go and have sex with a woman while he still can

And to me that's like???? Her son is mourning, he just lost the person he loved the most in his life, and she doesn't understands. She probably thinks it's not a big deal since humans die so much anyway! Why would she care about another dead man in a war in which hundreds die? Why would Achilles care? Patroclus was just another man for her, if her son liked him because he had sex with him, then he will feel better if he has sex again, but this time with a woman so he doesn't think about Patroclus

Like??? She doesn't understands humanity at all, and maybe she is a good mother to a God, but not to a human

So people saying "Oh, she was a good mother to Achilles" bish where??

[dootznbootz]

I don't think Greek Mythology retellings/adaptions/inspired/etc. are necessarily "evil"...but I DO think people REALLY need to understand that there's a huge difference between the actual mythology and certain media.

I feel like people have to basically do a "Fandom ___" to say the different versions. Like "PJO ___", "Hades game ___", "TSOA ___". For it to be understood that these depictions are DIFFERENT. I'm saying this as someone who grew up reading PJO and still has a soft spot for it. But as someone who really loves Greek Mythology as well, I sometimes get really SAD.

I'm going to use the comparison of Howl's Moving Castle with it's Book Vs. Movie. I enjoy both!!! But they are honestly very different. In the movie there is no "sister swap", Markle isn't a young teenager, Sophie doesn't throw weed killer at Howl, and many more moments. But I enjoy both because even though there are changes they still keep components that are ingrained into the characters!

In some Greek Myth retellings/adaptations/stories/etc., characters are...SO different from the source material. That's fine...Choose what you want with your story... But folks should know that the modern adaptations are NOT the source material!!!

It bothers me that a lot of these wonderful myths and stories are twisted up and seen so differently because of a modern version of them. You can have that character be "awful" or a certain way in your story. But I almost feel that as fans, it's not good to generalize them or see it as "This is the truth". People are hating the mythological figure when it's only in that interpretation they are like that.

In PJO, Ares is "Zeus' favorite", isn't a good dad, a misogynist, etc. The actual myths? One of his Epithets is LITERALLY "Feasted by Women", in the Iliad everybody basically bullies him with Zeus literally saying he hates him. He cries when he learns one of his sons is killed in the war. He literally kills someone about to rape his daughter. Ares isn't perfect but it makes me sad with how he's viewed and talked about when it's only in PJO he's like that. Same with Dionysus. Read the Bacchae, you'll love it.

In Lore Olympus, Apollo rapes Persephone (noticing the fact that modern takes on the myths add rapes where there never were hmmmmm) when he never did in any of the myths.

In TSOA, Thetis is cruel when in the Iliad, she is such a loving mother to Achilles. She grieved alongside her son over Patroclus. Also with Agamemnon. In Ipheginia at Aulis, Agamemnon is a MESS. He adored his children.

In Circe, Odysseus is viewed as a selfish man who ONLY hurts others and doesn't care about his family when that is LITERALLY his one consistent character trait. HE is actually the one who is the victim of rape. Circe was never raped.

Medusa is only a victim in Ovid's, a Roman man, works. Not in GREEK mythology. She was just a cool monster. Leave Perseus alone. Poseidon and Medusa actually had a consensual relationship in Greek Mythology!

These adaptations/retellings/inspired by/etc. whatever anybody wants to call them, are not the real myths! They may be similar in some ways but to just generalize them or hate the deity/mythological figure because of something they did in the new media feels fucked up!

You can enjoy these new stories. There's nothing wrong with that!!! But know they're not the real myths. Maybe even label it as "I hate ____'s version of ____". As that makes it clear what version you're talking about.

[aetherin21]

And with kindness leads to greatness

Patroclus is a kind man, written in between his words of doubt and low self esteem. The way he treats women he encounters with care and empathy speaks volumes then the words he utters.

His mother, everly so writtenly as meek and homely seemed to shine in his eyes as the sandy beaches of his home. As though, supposedly to dispise her from his father's lament. He remembers her simpleness like the warmth of the fading sky. Drifting and disappearing. But as the strings of her lyre, she is there only existing.

When Deidameia got pregnant with Achilles and learned that he will never ever love her, she was angry, disappointed and thrown away. She was promised of the boy and so she gave. And out of sheer destruction of a heart break, she agonizingly seeked comfort from Patroclus and demanded to lay with her so she could even by a small margin feel the soul of Achilles mending her broken heart. Cause as Patroclus quoted he is half of Achilles soul.

She's a victim in all of this as much as she tries to stand between the two lovers. And Patroclus understands this. Bedding her too but out of sympathy and kindness that she wanted to feel.

He was so human that when Briseis was turned into a prize of war, he urged his lover to take her and save her from being soiled by Agamemnon. He befriended her, clothed her, and taught her the way of the greeks. And as more prizes come, if by means possible, he wished for Achilles to take them from the humiliation to come.

In return for his selflessness, he was loved by the girl. Even offering him a child she could bare, knowing full well that she wont be the apple of his eye. But Patroclus could not dirty her like that. He knew she deserved better.

Thetis, on the other hand, had loathed him since the beginning. Yet she unknowingly seeked comfort from his memories of her lost child. Never to truly knowing the boy she had given birth to but only from the words of his lover. Patroclus was at her mercy, begging to reunite with his lover and yet instead of hating her even until death, he sang her Achilles' song.

And with the last hymns of his memory, she obliged writing his name beside her child's. The only motherly thing she had ever done.

Patroclus was the best of the Myrmidons for his sheer kindness alone. The cowardice that was bestowed by his true father was a lie but the name 'Patroclus' that meant glory of the father was true. Chiron is proud of his child. He honored him, using the knowledge he had bestowed and saved dozens of lives of hardened greek soldiers. Memorizing their names and each of their stories like his father did. Although, unlike them, he did not fight with swords and spears, he fought with his empathy in hand.

And the boy he had accidentally killed as a prince? It was not an act of cowardice of his confession, it was atonement. Acceptance of what he had done. Unlike those other kings and princes, he took the punishment as one should supposed to.

And that is why Achilles loved him. And that's why Achilles died when he did. Because he is the mortal half of his supposed to be godhood.

He is his other half, as the poet say.

[babyrdie]

So you don't think tsoa mischaracterized Patroclus? (same anon who sent the ask about kindness)

Since I don't want to attract negative attention, I'm going to shorten the post to get less attention lol read the answer below the continue reading bar.

Oh no, don't get the wrong impression. I'm of the opinion that TSOA did mischaracterize Patroclus lol he looks like a modern character, not an Ancient Greek character. Yes, Patroclus is kind, as I made a whole post arguing for it, but he's not a modern kind like in TSOA.

He is also not an integral healer, in The Iliad he is only healing people because the usual healers are unable to do so and this is obvious in Nestor's speech (Book 11). Even if he were a healer, it has nothing to do with being a warrior, since Machaon and Polydarius are the doctors of the Achaeans and both fight. Achilles taught Patroclus to heal in mythology and well…Achilles very obviously fights. Patroclus was kind to Briseis according to what she says (Book 19), but that doesn't make him anti-slavery. He had a slave girl, Iphis (Book 9).

Other sources also point to this, just look at how Pindar (Olympic Ode) and Philostrathus (Heroica) make Patroclus' martial aspect quite clear. Incidentally, do you know the lost plays of Aeschylus that are famous for containing Patrochilles? Aristophanes in Frogs refers to Aeschylus having written Patroclus and Teucer as men with great deeds. In the Suda, a Byzantine encyclopedia, Patroclus is also considered a warrior. Plutarch also writes Patroclus in a dual way. In many other sources, such as Hesiod and Quintus, Patroclus' deeds are emphasized. Even The Iliad scholia, which highlights Patroclus' kindness several times, also highlights his martial achievements.

Patroclus being kind is a given, but that doesn't mean he was kind in the "I hate violence, I don't like fighting, I'm a feminist, I'm anti-slavery, my greatest pleasure is healing people" kind of way. That's a very modern kind of "masculine" kindness. He's kind in the sense that he's patient, empathetic, and diplomatic. That was more like the ancient kind of "masculine" kindness. (Also: "masculine" because the genre affects. In the case of Ancient Greece, the kindness of a man specifically socialized to be a warrior is not the same as that expected of a maiden, for example.)

Furthermore, it's kind of pointless to try to argue that TSOA's Patroclus is faithful to The Iliad's Patroclus when the author herself admitted that while the idea of ​​him being kind was from The Iliad, the idea of ​​him hating violence was Shakespeare's. According to her:

Q: How much of the characters’ personalities came directly from Homer’s text and how much from your imagination? A: It depends on the character. Homer was always a guide, but I also freely drew on other influences and my own imagination. Thetis, Achilles’ sea-nymph mother, is not so angry and uncompromising in the Iliad as she is in my version, but I was led there by her troubled relationship to mortals, based on her forced marriage to Peleus. Patroclus’s gentleness and kindness were drawn from hints given by Homer, but his horror of violence came from my reading of his psychological backstory, and was also partially inspired by Shakespeare’s portrait of him in Troilus and Cressida as more lover than fighter. I knew my Odysseus would be wily, of course, but I enjoyed finding new ways to set that wiliness in motion, particularly in opposition to the idealistic, earnest Patroclus.

In fact, she has even explained that directing Troilus and Cressida (the play) was what inspired her to start writing the book.

Q: When did you first have the idea to write The Song of Achilles? A: I began writing the novel the summer after I graduated from University, before starting my Master’s in Classics. I had just finished directing a production of Troilus and Cressida, which was a complete revelation for me. Up until then, I had only interacted with these stories from an academic perspective, but working with Shakespeare’s characters inspired me to approach them creatively as well. I opened my laptop and Patroclus’ voice was there. Of course, none of those initial sentences survived the editing process. From idea to final execution was ten years.

She has also made clear the two reasons for writing Patroclus this way. One reason is that she wanted to explain why Achilles loved him so much and the other is that she wanted to make him relatable.

Q: Patroclus is very elusive in The Iliad – what made you decide to make him the narrator of your book? A: It was that elusiveness which intrigued me. Achilles’ all-consuming, obliterating grief for Patroclus’ death is the linchpin of the entire Iliad, yet Patroclus spends most of the poem in the background. It seemed to me a great mystery. Who was this man who could undo Achilles? Why was he so essential and beloved? Writing the book was my way of finding an answer to that question.

The central inspiration behind the book is the terrible moment in the Iliad when Achilles hears about Patroclus’ death. His reaction is shocking in its intensity. The great half-god warrior—who carelessly defies rules, and condemns a whole army to death—comes completely unglued, desperate with grief and rage. I wanted to understand what it was about Patroclus and their relationship that could create that kind of crisis. Although Homer tells us what his characters do, he doesn’t tell us much of why they do it. Who was Achilles? And why did he love Patroclus so much? Writing the novel was my way of answering that question.

In writing this novel, I thought a lot about personal responsibility. Patroclus is not an epic person, the way Achilles is. He’s an “ordinary” man. But he has more power than he thinks, and the moments where he reaches out to others and offers what he sees as his very modest assistance have huge positive ramifications. Most of us aren’t Achilles—but we can still be Patroclus. What does it mean to try to be an ethical person in a violent world?

Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with liking TSOA, but trying to argue that TSOA's Patroclus is true to the mythological character is just… what's the point? Why not appreciate TSOA as something different instead of pretending that the ancient Greeks saw Patroclus the way Madeline does? They didn't, just read the texts. Miller has openly said that the idea of ​​him not being a warrior came from Troilus and Cressida, she KNOWS he's not like that in The Iliad. So things like "well, he didn't like violence in The Iliad"… man, not even the author claimed that. It's all in your head. In trying to defend her, you're twisting her words. She also made it clear that she wanted to make Patroclus relatable, which would be difficult using the usual characterization when the book's audience is very young. She also stated more than once that she wanted to explain Achilles' love for him and probably, in her mind, a lovable person is someone with modern characteristics because she is a modern person.

There is no point in saying "well, Miller was faithfully following The Iliad and she was trying to be entirely consistent with the Homeric Patroclus" when the author has already made it clear that NO, she wasn't. She did say that The Iliad was an important source, but she made it clear that it wasn't the only one. She made it clear that the characterization of Patroclus is also influenced by Shakespeare and also, in her words, "my own imagination".

Honestly, just admit that you like Patroclus in TSOA and that's fine. You don't have to pretend he's the same way the ancient Greeks imagined him to be, you have the option to like both the mythological version and the TSOA version instead of pretending they follow the same idea.

I don't even know why people get defensive about the possibility of TSOA Patroclus not being like Myth Patroclus, that wouldn't be the first change. For example:

Menoetius was never said to be abusive. In fact, he cared about Patroclus. In the Iliad, he counsels Patroclus before he goes to war. Other sources say that Achilles promised Menoetius that he would bring Patroclus back from war.

Thetis wasn't an abusive mother, something that the author herself makes clear that she knows she wasn't (it's in one of the interview excerpts I posted here, by the way)

In Greek mythology Patroclus wasn't taught by Chiron, but by Achilles (in the Roman mythology, though, he was taught by Chiron)

Deidamia wasn't an annoying and insistent girl. She also never forced herself on Achilles. The relationship was either consensual or Achilles was the one who forced himself on her.

Iphigenia didn't die passively, she found out about the plan beforehand and was verbal about it.

Achilles didn't avoid Briseis. She was his sex slave and he used her. He had Diomede too.

Agamemnon wasn't considered superstitious, his belief in the gods was an ideal belief for a leader at the time. This, however, did not prevent him from displeasing gods, as is the case with Apollo.

Patroclus never had to convince Agamemnon not to rape Briseis. Agamemnon decided not to do so, probably because he knew that doing so would decrease his chances of making peace with Achilles.

Patroclus didn't kill Sarpedon as some sort of accident while desperately trying to defend himself, he decided to attack Sarpedon and then still wanted to dishonor his body.

Achilles didn't just kill Penthesilea and that was it. He fell in love with her in this process too.

Neoptolemus never prevented the union of Achilles and Patroclus. The burial was also never just Achilles and Patroclus, it also had Antilochus.

Neoptolemus didn't randomly decide to kill Polyxena because he thought it would be honorable, Achilles asked him to do it and then he did.

Neoptolemus didn't try to rape Hermione and was killed by Orestes for it. He was literally her husband and she was even jealous of him. Orestes killed him because Hermione was already promised to him before, but Menelaus gave her to Neoptolemus anyway.

There are so many, so many changes. Why is the idea of ​​her changing Patroclus so absurd? She has already changed other things. And you can like the changes, you just can't claim that they aren't changes, that they're part of the original material. I love Hades, but you won't find me claiming that Achilles regretted everything he did after death or that Theseus and the Minotaur became best friends in the original sources. I like that Briseis has a strong personality in TSOA, but I'm not going to pretend and act like the ancient Greeks wrote her that way.

But anyway, that's my opinion and I don't think it's going to change. I've read several arguments, but none of them seem to really make sense.

[random-krab]

TSOA rant

I think it is time i bring up my change of tags If you don’t know or haven’t noticed I have changed most tags on my Iliad and “TSOA” posts tags to Anti-madeline miller, there are multiple reasons for this for one re-reading Tsoa her blatant fetishism of gay men is clear and she misuses the mythology and each characters original characterization, But i’m getting ahead of myself.  I’m going to start with Patroclus because he is a protagonist in this, which I admit isn’t a bad idea in itself but she changes so much about him that is hard to recognize but let's start with his age, while we don’t know his exact age we do know that he is older than Achilles because he was a squire, role model, and counsel to him, But she changes this which I admit makes sense when trying to appeal to a modern audience but in doing that you strip him of any solo characterization and authority, He goes from an angry boy to a generally calm man who can make good decisions which really makes his choice to go into battle in disguise really impactful. But she changes that and therefore changes his original personality. Speaking of personality she does something bluntly homophobic which is the feminization of Patroclus’s character, Patroclus goes from a very good warrior, strategist and medic to only a medic in her “Retelling” it is very reminiscent of the “Warrior husband and Healer wife” trope as pointed out by @booklover42 on my "Tsoa isn't accurate" Post; fun fact; most death counts either end with Patroclus having a higher or same body count as Achilles and It is never hidden that he is a fighter.

Speaking of Achilles. Achilles is probably the worst in this. A Lot of his personality, relationships, and actions are retconned which is weird for someone like madeline miller who claims to care about the mythology and accuracy of her “retellings” to do. The first thing I really hate is his relationship with Thetis, his mother. Her overall characterization is horrible, in the iliad she is a caring mother who might be slightly overbearing but she isn’t nearly as bad as she is in this. Her interactions with Patroclus automatically turns the reader against her even after finding out she was forced into marriage.

AND SPEAKING OF MARRIAGE. I will say this over and over and over again. Achilles was sexually attracted to women and men (or at least patroclus). You have no idea how angry I get when I see posts talking about how Achilles was gay. Because 2 things 1. No he wasn’t, he was just Greek literally no one would care about him having a male lover (expect maybe Peleus even then it would be more about the heir aspect of yk having a wife) the only point anyone has a thing to say about his relationship with Patroclus in a negative light is in  that one Shakespearean play where they just complain that they are having too much sex and aren’t doing anything. And Actually saying he was gay is weird because they didn’t have a word for it (Well actually that's kind of a lie they had pederasty, eromenos, and Kinaidos but uh) and 2. He had a wife and at least 1 sex slave of which I will get into later. But on to the marriage thing, His marriage to Deidamia wasn’t her sexually assaulting him or really even forced by thetis like it's implied (actually in one account its said that Achilles sexually assaulted her) but like no, in most versions they just started a intimate relationship while he was in disguise and eventually got married and then he left for war. She wasn’t a big character in the Iliad but she was nowhere near as antagonistic and Madeline miller describes her as. Another fun fact actually Neoptolemus was never taken by thetis?, I don’t know where Madeline got that from but it was in none of the sources I read. But Deidamia actually begged and tried to convince Neoptolemus not to go to war just like Thetis did with Achilles. And Actually let me get to the sex slave  Briseis, someone everyone loves in tsoa but her original character is nice, like actually she doesn’t have a lot of screen time but she is a good character, she was someone of decent standing reduced to a sex slave and a prisoner of war and a thing to be passed off and taken away at a king's wish not to mention she was promised that she would be married but achilles died before they had the chance and when his son arrived and wanted her she would rather try to run away and die in the process then be handed off to him. She is an amazing character and she is a good representation of what war looked like for the people taken captive but in tsoa she is made to be a pity character only used to make the main characters look like good men. I have nothing else to say at least right now anyway I may add to this later but yeah

[aficionadoenthusiast]

if there's one good thing to come of constantly seeing antis and hate in the tsoa tags, it's that i've realized patroclus is a really unreliable narrator (which i knew already, i just finally figured out how to put it into words).

so when i search the tsoa tags, there's all these anti tsoa posts about how horrible and evil it is that miller depicted the two of them as 'soft uwu gay boys' (their words, not mine. i've seen this phrase in almost every hate post about the book), and like, that's fine, that's just one interpretation of their relationship (it's really not, actually. it's homophobia and a bit of sexism), but also, that's the whole point of the book.

we already know they were cutthroat soldiers that fought in a war. that was never up for debate. the whole point of tsoa is to show another perspective of their story, the perspective that shows that these soldiers were capable of loving and being loved. since this is what miller wanted to portray, obviously she showed them as softer and gentler than in the iliad. besides, if she had just gone off of the iliad exactly, it would just be another translation, not a retelling.

i saw a post a while ago that said tsoa is actually patroclus telling his side of achilles' story to thetis at the end so she would let him finally be at rest, and i really liked that (if i ever find the post, i'll link it [i found this one, but i don't think it's the one i'm thinking of]). but thetis knew all about how important they were to the war. what she didn't know was how her son could care, and create, and love, so that's the part of his story patroclus focused on, so, of course, he left stuff out and downplayed the violence and fighting.

and then, since it is in patroclus' perspective, he was eternally aware of his physical inferiority to achilles, and, again, that's not the story he wanted to tell. based on his narrations, he was deeply self-conscious, to the point where he felt that doing anything for himself felt like he was stealing or doing something wrong, and the only thing he was ever sure of was achilles' love for him, and even that took years to finally cement within him. he was never going to focus on his own achievements because he didn't think he had any. he was never going to focus on the things he did that achilles could also do since there was no point as achilles was always better than him.

and it wasn't out of jealousy. he literally said why should he be ashamed when achilles was better than everybody? agamemnon was the one that couldn't accept that

but, anyways, my point is that patroclus was never going to tell the whole story, and, really, he went through all of this for y'all to call him a 'soft uwu gay boy'? as if one the most respectful and healthy gay relationships i've ever read is too soft? because men aren't allowed to be soft? fuck you

[rosquinn]

Hi Roski! I have a question, would you mind to help, please?

Okay, so the other when I was wandering through the shelves of my local library I found our that they have a copy of Madeline's Miller Circe... And I was thinking that maybe I should give it a try? 😅

I know that it's not mythology accurate but as long as the plotline is well-written... Idk maybe I will enjoy in spite of it 🤷🏻‍♀️ Do you is it a good idea?

I just wanted to know if you believe is worth the time or nor

Also, same goes for Achilles's song. They don't have it at the library, but I thought that if I enjoyed Circe I should try it to? 🤔

i used to be a huge madelline miller fan *vaguely gestures at her short story about galatea i still have in my bookshelf for some reason* but i realized she, well, uh, sucks

it's not about her writing, (it's excessively "poetic" and decorated in my opinion but that's subjective) it's that her interpretations are kind of. bad?

i'm gonna elaborate under the cut about why i don't like her (long rant and tw for *mentions of s/a*)

-she victimizes her female main character and makes her go through traumatic experiences to erase and excuse all the bad stuff she's done... "circe turned odysseus' men into pigs bc they tried to assault her" yeah. no. she forced odysseus to sleep with her and turned his men into pigs because she felt like it. i understand you want a feminist badass witch but just. no. she isn't a cute uwu unfairly exiled goddess. what she did to odysseus is sexual abuse.

-she apparently hates women that aren't circe. made thetis, i repeat, our thetis, MOTHER thetis, a homophobic and overprotective mom who wants to kill patroclus in SOA for some reason (wasn't she literally the one who sent patroclus to the war with achilles..... miller..aren't you a classics major..). she did to her what other adaptations do to demeter, basically. and for no reason at all. but i guess her cute baby achilles who is doomed by the narrative can't have a nice mom who let him do whatever he wanted to because that would make him RUDE and EVIL and her character(s) can't have bad qualities. she also made achilles's wife, deidameia, who in some versions is raped by him, a “slut that gets in the way of your gay ship” archetype. she also made her rape achilles for some reason??? and that is fucking horrible

-baby-fied patroclus. he speaks like a stupid teenager girl stereotype in soa and is pretty much a useless human being whose entire personality is simping for achilles. that is not him. he DID fight in the trojan war, he was a SKILLED fighter, not a useless twig, he is described as tall and handsome, he healed some warriors, he is SAVAGE, bro literally broke kebriones's head with a rock in front of his brother and made fun of it??? he tried to climb the walls of troy and conquer it by himself??? he told achilles to stop being a bitch and move his ass??? and then in soa he's a useless piece of shit who DIDN'T EVEN FIGHT IN THE WAR, thinks of himself as weak and was thinking about achilles until the moment he died. sorry to break it to you but his last words in the iliad weren't "omg achilles no😥😥". he threw a whole essay at hector about how he didn't kill shit, it was apollo who beat him and hector's about to get dragged. and when his ghost came back to talk to achilles, it was to tell him to STOP CRYING and KILLING PEOPLE and BURN HIS BODY ALREADY. she completely erased his character. sorry.

-glorified achilles wayyy too much. one thing that i hate about her is how she can't let anyone make mistakes. achilles isn't “noble and doomed by the narrative”. he knew pretty well where he was stepping in and didn't give two shits. he literally says in Iliad book 1 he's there for the mass murder, glory and nothing more. “why would i kill hector what has hector ever done to me” MY ASS. he also was kind of an insufferable bitch in the iliad. i'm tired of people making his decision of stop fighting look “heroic/noble/tragic/etc bc agamemnon is evil” because it was not. he stopped fighting for selfish reasons, treated everyone really bad and let his friends die. also, agamemnon isn't “evil” and achilles isn't “good”. they're both war criminals who act like 8 year olds and kidnap women. every achaean character is a bitch, has killed at least 6 people and enjoyed it. yes. even babyboy patroclus (book 16)

-i'm not even saying this as a person with greek ancestry or a pagan, because i am neither, but her depiction of the gods is TERRIBLE. just what is that whole thing of "gods want mortals to fear them so they worship them"??? that's not even how religion works??? gods can be and in fact are very nice to their worshippers?? why would you villainize cultural figures like that?? and why tf it always gotta be a EVIL FEMALE GODDESS trying to fuck up her main character's life for some reason?? athena wants to kill circe's son in circe and i'm pretty sure they don't even interact in the odyssey?? (maybe they did, i don't remember, but if it happened it was definitely NOT because of that) and why is hermes a manipulator?? and why is ODYSSEUS a manipulator??? you literally sexually assaulted him??? HELLO????

idk, it just feels like mc victimization and random female character villainization (she also put the whole blame of the trojan war on helen because she was “vain” and “selfish”??? didn't she spend the whole iliad blaming herself for the war and wishing to die??)

i don't really like it. it's not a good adaptation

also i'm not the best person to expand on this topic because i am not a gay man/mlm/nblm but some people on tumblr have explained why tsoa is basically mlm fetish and wattpad fujoshi looking crap and they do have a point (the relationship is so stereotyped tbh) so i encourage you to read their posts. i don't have them rn but i can dm them to you later if you want

AND finally, most people in her fanbase can't separate a wattpad fanfic (because that's what tsoa is) from the original text and think tsoa and circe are just like what homer wrote. “hector didn't know it was patroclus” HE FUCKING DID PATROCLUS KILLED 20 PEOPLE IN FRONT OF HIM IT'S UNDERSTANDABLE “patroclus died bc he wasn't a skilled warrior” HE HAS THE SECOND HIGHEST KILL COUNT IN THE WHOLE ILIAD AND WAS FULL OF HUBRIS. HE DIED BECAUSE HE TRIED TO FISTFIGHT A GOD “deidameia raped achilles” “thetis is homophobic” “odysseus is evil” “it was all helen's fault” “circe did nothing wrong” “athena is bad” no (and they act like not shipping patrochilles makes you homophobic which is. cmon. i personally think they def had something going on but it's never explicitly stated and you can't act like it is)

ik i got too aggressive but it's just bad imo, if you want to enjoy a good iliad/odyssey adaptation go play hades or listen to epic the musical or even play limbus company because i swear lc's odysseus, a literal old woman who committed identity fraud, is at least 80 times more in character than miller's babyboys

ADDITION: no i'm not going to dismember you for liking tsoa or circe. this is just a personal opinion. enjoy whatever you want i'm just a little guy and i can't stop you. have fun!

[johaerys-writes]

WIP Wednesday

I haven't done one of those in a while! This is from the next chapter of you're a walking disaster and yet-- which is finished and should be up tomorrow:

Patroclus is sitting on his bed, History textbook in his lap and his back against the wall, Laika curled up beside him, when his door opens and Achilles walks in. He looks just as tired and disgruntled as Patroclus feels; he climbs up on the bed and nudges Patroclus and Laika aside to flop face down between them with a groan. 

“I hate this,” he mumbles, voice muffled through the pillows. Laika gives his ear a lick. 

Patroclus turns the music down a little, sets his book aside. “Did they always argue like this?” he asks quietly. “Before…”

Achilles’ back rises when he takes a deep breath. “I guess. Kind of. For a time. It was… different, though. There were times when it was so quiet. Dead quiet in the house. Before she left… they wouldn’t even speak to each other.”

“Is it better when they argue, then?” 

Achilles lets out a sharp huff of a laugh. It sounds weary more than anything. “I don’t know if ‘better’ is the word I’d use.” He scratches Laika behind the ears, staring longingly at the wall. “God, I just wish they’d stop and listen to each other for a minute.” 

Patroclus sighs. He wiggles down on the bed to lie next to Achilles. Achilles shifts to face him, his eyes so trusting and sad and lovely that they tug at Patroclus’ heart. 

“Do you think there’s something I could do?” Achilles asks. “Speak to them, maybe, or—”

“No,” Patroclus says. Then he amends it to a much softer, “It isn’t up to you, Achilles. What your parents do, what they say to each other. And it isn’t your fault if they argue. It’s up to them to fix things between them.” 

“I know,” Achilles says morosely. He blows at a golden curl that’s hanging over his nose, only for it to land messily across his brow. Patroclus reaches out, without thinking, to tuck it behind his ear. Achilles smiles, and something inside Patroclus grows warm and fuzzy at the sight. 

“It sounds rather quiet now,” Patroclus remarks, taking back his hand. “Do you think it’s time for dinner?”

“Fuck, I hope so. I’m starving.” 

They stay in Patroclus’ room for a while longer, listening to music and taking turns playing tug-of-war with Laika—most of her toys, as well as her dog bed and her food and water bowls, once strewn all over the house, are in Patroclus’ room now, once Thetis declared that she doesn’t want the dog anywhere near the kitchen or the living room or wherever else she or her family might be— before they finally decide it’s safe enough for them to go downstairs. 

I also have some doodle offerings, from a collection of doodles I've been working on featuring Disaster Achilles and his pink hair tie:

Tagging forth to @baejax-the-great @juliafied @elveny @pikapeppa @mogwaei @midnightprelude @gwensparlour @mary-aries @figsandphiltatos @annalyia @alibonbonn @darlingpoppet @in-arlathan @gloriesunsung and anyone else who wants to share a snippet of their work! Let me know if you want/don't want to be tagged for these things, I always draw a blank 😅

[tsoa-incorrect-quotes]

Guys I have an AU idea, so when I was rereading The Song of Achilles, I found this:

"She would take him to the caves of the sea and teach him contempt for mortals. She would feed him with the food of the gods and burn his human blood from his veins. She would shape him into a figure meant to be painted on vases, to be sung of in songs, to fight against Troy. I imagined him in black armor, a dark helmet that left him nothing but eyes, bronze greaves that covered his feet. He stands with a spear in each hand and does not know me."

This is what Patroclus thought would happen when Thetis kidnapped Achilles. Before he found out that he was taken to Skyros.

So, what if this is what actually happened, I'll just make a few minor adjustments...

So one night Achilles has a talk with his mom on Mt. Pelion and he decides to ask her if she can see him and Patroclus in the Rose Quartz Cave. Out of curiosity she lies to her son to see what he might do with the knowledge that she is not watching.

She is disgusted and ashamed of her own offspring, she decides to make some dangerous actions. She knows how warriors are raised, she knows her child's potential, she knows he will be a God, and she knows Chiron's magic has limits.

Patroclus wakes up to an empty cave, he searches all throughout Mt. Pelion, but he can see no sign of the blond headed boy. In desperation he asks Chiron, what has happened. The centaur can only look at him in sorrow.

To his horror the centaur tells him, that Thetis has manged to get the attention of Zeus, the king of the Gods, and through desperate negotiations, Zeus has given her permission to take her son. Patroclus is horrified.

"But where?" The dark haired boy cries in desperation.

"If I knew, I would have told you immediately, but alas, she must've taken him to where mortals cannot reach..."The centaur said with much sorrow in his voice.

Patroclus contemplates his words for a long and excruciating moment. At that moment his heart must have been a broken glass, thrown carelessly to the floor. His light, his love, his heart, his world, his everything was taken away from him, and now there is nothing but an empty abyss of darkness in it's place. He moves his head up and looks at the centaur directly in his dark eyes. "Teach me how to use his spear".

...The centaur, has trained Hercules, Perseus, Jason, all the greatest heroes in all the kingdoms of Greece, and yet he has never seen anything like this.

Patroclus is a menace, his love was gone with his heart. Achilles must've ripped it out of his chest, and a human with no love is nothing more than a beast, he fought with no mercy, he looked at the lives around him like they were nothing more then empty, pathetic, soulless beings that, call themselves humans, he trained tirelessly, he was not tired, he did not need to be, even when he was forced to rest he would no longer feel peace.

Patroclus was hurt, he felt betrayed, he could not direct his hate at a Goddess, because he knew the consequences of that. He was more focused on the boy the took his love and never gave it back. "How could he do this to me", "I gave him everything", "he was all that I wanted", "all that I needed", and he just left me here to suffer. "HE LEFT ME".

When the battle against Troy comes, the soldiers of Sparta speak of a dark haired, monster, to him the heads of the Trojan soldiers were wheat, they were brutally harvested and thrown to be eaten by vultures. He would shower in Trojan blood, and he fought with nothing but a golden spear.

"Disgusting!" "Weak!", "Pathetic!", "All of you" The boy with dark curly hair shouted, above the screams of the men dying around him.

"Please! No! I beg of you! Mercy! Do you not pity your fellow humans!? You are a monster!!!. These poor excuses, of soldiers would wail at his feet.

"Humans!?" " HA!" "They dare to call themselves humans? When they have not felt love like he did! When they did not feel the pain that he did! When they could never imagine what he had to go through!" "Humans are determined through the emotions that pain their thoughts, their minds, and their bodies he is more human then anyone else here..."

The Trojans would cower at the name... Patroclus, the nightmare of the Myrmidon camp.

This news reached the ears of three princes, Agamemnon, the general, leading this war, controlling the soldiers, he was as brutal as he was disgusting, Hector, a prince that was prophesized, to kill or be killed, a hero within Troy, and a boy in black armor, and a dark helmet, hiding his long Golden hair.

So anyways, I call it the shattered au

Feel free to reblog and add some stuff, and please give me more ideas, I might write a fic

[allthehumanflaws]

And in the end Thetis sat and listened to the man she hated so much and she heard him talk of her son so amazingly and beautifully

She finally learned everything about her son who he was how he was what he felt how he did and to honor him she carved on his tomb what felt most right she carved what made Achilles Achilles

She wrote Patroclus

[formulaocean]

hi! sorry if it's a bit of a random question but i wanted to ask, what are your thoughts on The Song of Achilles by Madeline Miller, if you've read it?

Ah okay I have contrasting thoughts because it really is beautiful and has some quotes that I still think about years later, but I read it when I was also reading the Iliad and studying bits of it in Greek and some doesn’t gel for me!

So I like it but it also annoys me if that makes sense?

If you take it as a young adult love story, and one of the first of both the lgbt and retelling genres at that, it’s very very good but you’ve just got to accept it’s not similar from a classics pov. In all fairness it’s not a retelling of the Iliad but a love story with a younger target audience so maybe that’s on me 😅

The whatever our souls are made of quote kills me. The what has hector ever done to me foreshadowing finishes me off. Name one hero who was happy? Dead again. Them meeting in the afterlife after their ashes combine? Revives me just to kill me once more.

Her writing is so lyrical and although I think I prefer Circe in general, she really did write a beautiful book. It’s elegiac and mythological, heartbreaking and putting you right in a historical mindset with all her descriptions that are so vivid. Everyone knew the ending but she brought us along on such a way that we wished we didn’t. I’m quite hyped for her Persephone when it comes out!

This specific retelling so needed to be done because all the signs were there in the Iliad. In Ancient Greek art and texts it almost universally depicted them as lovers and it’s not seeing things- they are written as quite queer in the Iliad with Achilles having this beautiful description as a widow while mourning. The first time I watched Troy (not even going into the ending) I was horrified by them being cousins 😭

By making Patroclus “simpler” and in a role similar to Greek women as a homemaker and healer at the time, you get to gloss over the broader implications of the war and see Achilles with such a lovely fondness. Where so many other descriptions of him are so harsh and brutal that tender love really is the heart of the book and a refreshing take on him- I feel people forget he moodily strums on a lyre as well as fights. I do wish we had more of a richer world building though because there’s so much going on!

At the same time- that’s not Patroclus. Even as a kid he gave Achilles “wiser council” and he was just as tough too, second in fighting to Achilles amongst the Myrmidins and just as hungry for war. He’s described as being powerfully built, modest, wise, and before he’s struck down by Apollo, causing Hector to kill him, his aristeia had him single handedly slaying upwards of 50 people. It’s why Achilles trusts him with his armour.

I kind of wish we had Patroclus at least learn to fight in the book, or had him be tougher. Of course there are different types of strength but I don’t see why we couldn’t have Achilles appear softer through Patroclus’s eyes while keeping him in character, two scary people can still be gentle with each other! And as this is mainly a sports-semi-rpf tiny blog I will say we were robbed of jock for jock energy- give me flashbacks to them fighting together!

There’s also a complete glossing over of the female characters being slaves and here having a “brotherly” relationship where it is…not that. And I do think it’s a little bit of a tired trope that one man in a queer relationship has to take the more effeminate role but it was 2012 and aimed at young adults so I can’t blame it too much for either!

Thetis is brilliantly done though. Completely compelling as a terrifying ancient goddess who knows her son is doomed to die. Really reminds me of her in Catullus 64 which is about her wedding to Peleus and very foreshadowing heavy. And Odysseus too- love to hate that sneaky bastard.

Sorry for rambling anon 😭 I really hope you liked the book ❤️