#there will be no wholesome byler kiss

[yourlocalbadgerscales]

Yo I saw someone post something about how the Byler kiss will definitely have a really messy argument leading up to it, tears and screams and all, because there simply is no other way it can possibly go, not after all the miscommunication between Mike and Will these last couple seasons. Yeah uhmmmmm I’m not sure I’m ready for the byler kiss anymore.

[chirpsythismorning]

And at a baseball field...

There are very few references to baseball in Stranger Things, and so looking at these rare moments side by side, I can't help but feel like this comparison happening here is entirely intentional.

The first baseball mention we get is from 1x02, when Jonathan is driving to Lonnie's and has a flashback to a moment with Will. This moment involves Joyce yelling at Lonnie over the phone for not showing up to spend quality time with Will like they planned, post-divorce. Upon them overhearing this, Jonathan comforts Will by questioning if Will even likes baseball, to which Will says no. Jonathan goes on to say that Will shouldn't like things just because other people tell him he's supposed to. And it's this bittersweet moment on the surface, but what's hiding underneath is queer-coding. It's a moment that sort of encourages Will to do the things he likes to do, instead of falling for the trap that so many kids get stuck in because they don't feel like they have a choice other than to do what other people they expect them to (*cough* Mike Wheeler *cough*).

And so these scenes juxtaposed to that sentiment is pretty damn ironic.

1x02

Jonathan: -- He's trying to force you to like normal things. And you shouldn't like things just because people tell you you're supposed to (referring to baseball, but also hinting at Will potentially being queer).

1x03:

Dustin: Do you think Eleven was born with her powers, like the X-Men? Or do you think she acquired them like Green Lantern?

Lucas: She's not a superhero. She's a weirdo.

Mike: What does that matter? The X-Men are weirdos?

Lucas: If you love her so much, why don't you just marry her?

Mike: What are you talking about?

Lucas: Mike seriously?

Mike: What?

Lucas: You look at her like, Hi, El! El! El! El! I love you so much! Would you marry me?

Mike: Shut up, Lucas

Notice how they're talking about El's powers and Mike is attempting to defend El, bc in his eyes she is a superhero and he doesn't see that as a bad thing (Mike is also attempting to defend this concept of being weird, bc what's wrong with that...? right...?). Lucas instantly jumps to perceiving Mike's harmless well-intentioned comment as Mike having romantic feelings for El, even implying Mike's behavior towards her means that he loves her and wants to marry her, to which Mike is pretty confused and denies...

They could have had this scene anywhere, but they chose to have it in front of a baseball field? Back to back with the episode previous including this flasbhack between Jonathan and Will?

Seconds before the homophobic bullies show up...?

they were insane for writing this 1 minute 25 seconds scene. the juxtaposition of lucas insisting mike obviously likes el so much vs troy and james showing up to say homophobic shit about will is insane.

[therainscene]

It's Valentine's Day again, so have a badly-drawn Byler kiss from my current WIP.

[Unlike last year's WIP, this hasn't been edited or taken out of context to appear more wholesome than it really is -- I've actually drawn a genuinely romantic panel for once. :) On an unrelated note this comic has five panels]

[givehimthemedicine]

lumax as a premature relationship

first: I don't mean any of this like "the show shouldn't have done it". what I mean is that with lumax, ST is telling the story of a relationship whose flaw (if it can be summarized into just one) is that it happened too soon.

probably out of comparison to milkvan, and the delay of canon byler, lumax gets lauded as the wholesome ship based on true friendship that slowly blossomed into romance. but that's not accurate. Lucas is a good friend to Max, but Max isn't to Lucas, and it certainly wasn't slow.

even platonic lumax should've been a slow simmer but was a speed run

the newly-introduced Max has high walls, which suggests anyone who wants to get close to her will have to take a slow approach. but then before you know it, Lucas is just kinda. in there.

yes, it takes him most of the season to earn Max's trust, which sounds long, but isn't. the first time Lucas and Max ever spoke was Halloween, Wednesday. the arcade I think is Saturday, and the junkyard is the day after that? so she broaches the darkest subject in her life... 4 days after meeting him. with like. zero prompting. "that fog looks cool! btw my parents are divorced and..."

Max's walls are only so high because of how badly she wants to let someone in, so it's understandable that the right person could get in relatively fast. I have no problem with that trope. sucker, in fact. but opening up here was CRAZY for someone with huge trust issues:

you have to be careful who you confide in about abuse because if your confidant mishandles it so that your abuser finds out you told, things could get MUCH worse. she simply doesn't know Lucas well enough to know he won't accidentally put her in more danger (which actually he already did: by following her out of the arcade after she said not to, and again by showing up at her house).

this talk was moments before Max saw a demodog, meaning she's gone along with the supernatural story without any evidence. I'm not criticizing that; she's a kid who likes fantasy, wants friends really bad, and isn't above playing make-believe in order to be included. what bothers me is she confided in Lucas about her abuse BEFORE seeing a shred of proof this entire outing wasn't the elaborate prank she feared it was. in the infinitely more realistic scenario that these boys are just messing with her, and will ditch her after they've had their laugh, this could so easily have led to a much darker situation at home.

the timing of that conversation was so objectively, stupidly unsafe that I'd call it bad writing if it was an isolated incident. but, self-preservation instincts so terrible they can sometimes be better explained as elf-sabotage - that's just classic Max.

romantic lumax seemed kind of forced because as a new kid in town, all Max wanted was friendship

the snow ball is about a month after everything else. Max and Lucas don't seem to be a couple yet. it doesn't even look like they're dates. so to kiss him suddenly felt like another jump way ahead. he sure looked surprised.

I guess a month is a while when you're 13, but the romantic aspect felt rushed to me because the whole season is full of indications that Max only wanted friendship. and that's made super clear by her constant focus on group friendship. her dialogue throughout 2 is consistently group-oriented.

her behavior is too: as of Halloween, Max has Lucas and Dustin in her pocket. if she's crushing on Lucas, or enjoys attention from boys in general, why on earth would she go out on such a limb seeking Mike's acceptance after she already has what she wants?

because that's not what she wants most. she wants to belong to the whole group, like she keeps saying. (I'm going to ramble much more about this theme in another post soon)

Max continues to prioritize friendship / group activities even after lumax becomes a thing

a few examples:

lumax's idea of "romantic time" can include their friends, in contrast to milkvan prioritizing alone time.

Max (and Lucas) drop 1 on 1 time (washing out his eyes is a scene that's an easy kiss opportunity for your standard tv teen couple) in favor of a long trek in the sun to build a radio tower so Dustin can talk to a girl she doesn't believe exists. Max and Lucas do skip off together, but again in contrast to El and Mike who leave early to make out, they only leave because it's time to go home.

^that's the same Max who tagged along and earnestly participated in armoring up a junked schoolbus to fight monsters without any proof.

despite downsizing for trailer living, she kept the Michael Myers mask in memory of the first night she felt like a part of the party.

unlike others who yell for their loved one from the UD, Max calls out for Lucas and Dustin.

her life-saving montage includes many platonic as well as romantic moments.

alright killjoy, if Max only wanted friendship, how's it make sense that SHE initiated all the romantic stuff?

ST is not a universe where grabbing someone's hand in a tense moment is necessarily an indicator of romance. Dustin said he could feel "the electricity" when Lucas and Max held hands on the bus, but then, Dustin also ships stobin.

the kiss, I could actually come closest to calling a writing misstep because.. it wasn't written. it feels forced because it was, as a last-minute unscripted thing - not because the Duffers decided it fit Max's characterization, but purely because they thought it was funny how uncomfortable Sadie was with filming her first kiss. <- this interview is actually so gross.

but, that kiss is canon regardless of how I feel about bts lore, and it fits and it works in the sense that this is the story of a flawed relationship. Max initiated it despite not being ready for it, simply because she thought she was.

Max's childhood fears about bad relationships have made her overeager to prove a good relationship can exist. so the first time a boy is actually kind to her, she's like OH SEE LOVE IS REAL I DONT HAVE TO GROW UP TO BE MY MOM LET'S GOOOO and hurls herself into something she's not mature enough to realize she's too immature to execute well.

if that kiss was so misguided, how's it still Max's happiest memory?

there's no conflict there.

she grew up around terrible relationships and probably feared she was destined for the same, so to find a nice boy like Lucas must have given her such incredible relief and hope. in her young mind, that dance was her happily ever after. you never forget how good a moment like that felt, regardless of how well reality lived up to it.

that said. can I point out that reality hasn't lived up to it?

Max choosing the moment lumax began, as opposed to any moment from the year-and-change of its actual contents... might be less good the more you think about it. like. she doesn't describe this as her favorite memory. she says it's the time she was happiest. in other words, she hasn't been as happy before or since.

that kiss marked lumax's moment of greatest potential, which I think is what made Max so happy. not the relationship she's actually gotten so far.

mmkay and then what do I do about the fact Max STILL wants to date Lucas?

once again, Max is the one who makes things overtly romantic by doodling a picture of them holding hands. but as you may know from my recent lumax diatribe, I don't see how the ship is seaworthy at present.

so the top layer of my interpretation is that Max is still operating under the same ideas that caused her to kiss Lucas in the first place. she's not thinking about how it'll work; she just wants. this is fast-forward Max again. it's a similar moment of hope to the snow ball kiss. romance with Lucas once again looks like her lifeline out of an awful situation.

the layer underneath that is less fluffy:

Max might've accepted this invite in as much an "I might die tonight so it won't hurt to make some lighthearted plans for the future, he did just save my life so why hurt his feelings for no reason" way as anything else. I don't mean her affection is fake. she just might consider the movie date a pipe dream.

consider that her attic monologue happens only a couple minutes after the doodle, and shows that her suicidal ideations are barely behind her. like, the wanting-to-die part is just bait at this point I think, but the deserving-to-die sentiment still feels fresh and sincere.

consider that Max so recently scolded Lucas for assuring her things would work out because that's "never true" in her life... and now here she is drawing a doodle of things working out.

sure, this could be a girl who's thinking "yes!!! ✅ Attending Event! I genuinely expect to be alive, deserving of love, and in the mood for romance this Friday!" but to me, it honestly seems more like a girl thinking "God, I wish."

btw the doodle would've been perfect as the advent of romantic lumax, imo

if lumax had grown slowly out of a healthy mutual friendship, Max really could be ready right here.

imagine: s2, Max earns her place in the party, but to grow especially close friends with Lucas takes a year; the bus talk happens in s3. we can tell their friendship is starting to want to become more. depression interferes in s4. but their bond helps pierce the fog, and they protect each other from Vecna/Jason.

you hit me with the movie doodle after THAT buildup? adorable, precious, showstopping. at that point, that date could've been their happily ever after. <- this is what people think it is already!

lumax is one of many flawed relationships (and that's okay)

another sign that lumax is supposed to be flawed is its place in the larger pattern of flawed relationships: parallels with other characters and ships.

Max and El in particular share a similar stumble into their relationships: both bond with the first boy to treat them with kindness, and throw themselves into a relationship that actually costs them the friendship they should've had with that boy.

and all the party relationships illustrate different friendship/romance progressions:

lumax is the story of a romance that should've been a friendship first/also and isn't going to succeed til it gets this right

byler will be the story of a romance that was a friendship first and will succeed by remaining one also (or so the themes and patterns suggest)

mileven is the story of a romance that should've been a friendship instead.

literally all of ST's relationships, including the endgame romances, have flaws that are intentional and meant to be explored. in fact that's like... most of what the show is. and most fans can readily admit that about all of them, until they get to lumax, which they think is uniquely meant to be perfect and is flawed only in its writing. this view strips lumax from its broader context and ignores many lessons it's there to teach us about ST's overarching themes.

understand: my aim in pointing out lumax's flaws is not to persuade anyone to enjoy it less or stop shipping it!

flaws don't mean you aren't allowed to like a thing. if anything, it makes them way more interesting to discuss, and more compelling to root for/against. we don't have to pretend our characters are perfect in order to enjoy, ship, and learn from them.

more on all this coming soon in another post exploring different types of love in the Max plot!

[sweetenerly]

OMGGG UR RECENT POST WAS WRITTEN PERFECTLY. I am an asexual lesbian and I love byler for many reasons. 1. Because I think WIll is one of the most accurate representations of what it is like to be gay EVER written. Will is so relatable. As a lesbian I have unfortunately fallen for MANY of my friends. There was one notable time where a girl I was really close with accused me of liking her (i did oops) and it became a huge thing. She was disgusted and told anyone she could and it was the worst feeling. So when I see a character in the same situation I am obv gonna want them to have what I didnt. 2. Because Will’s character alone is so tragic and I want him to have a happy ending. I also really like angst and watching sad things. I love crying and movie and tv shows. Every single one of Will’s scenes have gotten me. 3. Because SO many people are SOOOO hateful online. The straight up homophobia over a queer ship is UNBELIEVABLE. I need this people to be wrong SO bad. I want to see them mad I want to see them metaphorically slapped in the face that times ARE changing and that they are the problem. I also think it is the suspense that has been built. I def would love it still and ship it, but if there wasnt so much suspense built I dont think it would be as big. I hate how people always try to claim its sexualizing because not a single thing on here its sexualizing them. Literally everyone just wants a kiss and the rest is all wholesome so I dont see how it is sexualizing in any way. LGBTQ representation is for everyone in the community. I do not really get why people try to claim it is not. I will never understand why people within the community try to pick fights with each other instead of attacking the actual issue (homophobia) it is not productive in any way and we should all be standing with each other in growing representation for the community as a whole. Sorry this is so long I just thought u might appreciate someone agreeing with you because u are totally right.

EXACTLYYYY!

I’m just so over seeing this “tragic homosexual” pattern in every single piece of lgbtq media (reddie, cmbyn you get what i mean) because as much as it is realistic it’s just so depressing to see it over and over again when it’s already terrible enough to deal with in real life. And as you said, Will has already been through so much, adding unreciprocated love for his best friend on top of everything would be the final nail in the coffin and only prove that he in fact was right about never finding love. That would be so cruel!!!

It’s also so obvious that if Will was a girl nobody would call bylers delusional and just straight up throw hate and shade at them. It’s clear it all stems from homophobia and the GA’s heteronormative point of view, which is really sad but that’s unfortunately the society we live in

[bylercertainty]

if i was in charge of the music of st5

these songs would be in the opening, reintroducing the characters with the familiar songs. both are positive and upbeat which can follow the hopeful tone of a beginning story

in order to set the scene for a battle or getting ready for something, these songs provide a beat that are mostly motivational and positive

i imagine these songs being played during the middle of a battle fight scene. despite the lighthearted beat, the more desperate lyrics allow for a win

both of these love songs can be used to provide longing glances and yearning from couples. personally i hope oh, pretty woman is for jopper while the promise is dedicated for byler

these songs are for after the battle, grieving the loss of their friends while cherishing the ones who are still there. (byler kiss)

wholesome dance scene

finally, the epilogue songs when the crew is celebrating christmas and going to college

lmk if you agree/ disagree!!!

[castlebyersafterdark]

i was thinking about why sexual aspects of a relationship between byler shown on screen would be deemed unwholesome by many

imagine them saying they want to hold hands and kiss and go to the movies and be together, and people are like awww, and then when will starts admitting he has sexual fantasies people would get like oooop

i think because there's little guilt in watching and enjoying watching a couple be 'wholesome' and enjoy each others company, but enjoying watching a couple be sexually intimate treads over into voyeurism, because it's something that is supposed to be private between that couple only (barring kink etc, but thats a peripheral preference that is not elemental to all human sexual expression). so basically the viewer is forced to become aware that they are not involved in this, and are just watching, in a way they wouldnt feel awkward when just seeing a couple being happy day to day 'wholesomely'.

food for thought about why storytelling causes such controversy too: does the very act of being an audience member makes one a voyeur? i'm not sure, because stories exist to be watched while voyeurism can be about the thrill of looking when you're not supposed to or people dont know you are. but i think plenty of people are more comfortable with experiencing their own experiences than living vicariously through those of others, be that reading a book or watching a show. and if they accidentally find themselves ENJOYING watching something, like two characters having sex? woah woah woah, that says ALL kind of things about that person! must be a perv! ew!

for me personally, i don't consider myself an active voyeur when watching things because i am too immersed in the show to even be aware i exist lol. it was only when i came to fandom and saw people fretting about finding a sex scene uncomfortable because of what it would say about them to enjoy it that i started thinking about this topic.

it's also why i dont really care for foah judgemental-ness. i like foah - i noticed their dynamic years before joining fandom, and i dont feel like my identity or personhood is threatened by enjoying it, or enjoying byler, or wanting to see byler get down together when theyre clearly gagging for it and it would be so so so healing for them - and for us, too, cos lets face it: every byler missed out on SOMETHING once upon a time and is living vicariously some way, somehow, through them. you don't end up this deep in fandom if that's not the case; you just don't.

byler is catharsis.

what do you think, vinny?

Very interesting perspective!

No, I definitely don't agree that viewership is inherently of voyeur and unwilling subject when it comes to these things, so therein I believe I agree with you - art and creation is to be viewed. To entertain, inform, engage, etc. You're supposed to watch. That's what movies and television are for - and not everything is for everyone. There is a culture of guilt and shame right, topics we've all gone in circles about. I think you outlines it well and there are several other asks I'll get to or have gotten to about all of this sexuality in media conversation.

I like the idea posed here that fans of Byler have all missed out on something. Breaking it down for what that means to me or at least how I view things, because I can only truly speak for myself:

Representation People want to see themselves as a part of a story, on the screen, recognized as a part of the big picture of life. We are here. You are here. We exist. Different human stories all deserve to be told. We haven't really had a story like that of Mike and Will. So those who see themselves in these characters, or even so different, but want to see characters like this - how perfect. And for those who are not like Mike and Will and their story - it's important to see stories NOT identical to our own and to sympathize or just be entertained and let ideas into their lives for a little while.

Will and Mike are characters living in an era where a story like theirs (albeit without the supernatural aspect) was not impossible, a work of fiction, unrealistic. It's not a story that gets to be told. Boys fell in love with other boys. Childhood best friends struggled with feelings and family issue and identity and sexuality - there were real people who lives this. Many of these boys grew up into men and didn't make it. Some did. The importance of this show for both aspects there. Bringing mainstream something not common, but authentic.

Living Vicariously What do we like in our favorite characters? Why do they resonate? Will and Mike are relatable, to many peolpe. And you don't have to have been a young gay guy in the 80s to relate. Maybe you're just a nerd or a person with sexuality issues or a person who had a group of friends like the party or wanted a group of friends like that. Something stuck to you. Or, you just think they're neat. That's still relatable.

I like Will and Mike because while far from 1:1 parallels, I see traits of mine in them. I love stories about groups of friends like that, love watching this show because they're best friends and I'm rooting for them to make it. Because I wish I had a group of friends like the party so it's fun to watch, I'm emotionally attached, I feel the nostalgia factor.

Storytelling Big time reason - I just like the story. I think the show presented a compelling narrative. It has succeeded in getting me to want to see how Will and Mike's stories end up. I'm invested as a fan of romance and as a fan of horror and supernatural elements in stories. It's entertainment!! Sometimes it doesn't even have to be that deep. There was something missing in my need to be entertained and in Byler and in Stranger Things, something was found and has been fulfilled.

You're right, overall. Byler is catharsis.

[upsidedownlurker]

Crazed Byler ramblings from 1:54 am

If Mike Wazowski actually end up together I will laugh so hard

YOU’RE TELLING ME THIS WAS THE MAIN COUPLE’S FIRST KISS???

YOU’RE TELLINJG ME THIS WAS THE MAIN COUPLE’S ACTUAL LOVD CONFESSION??? (eyes stay open to view that luscious forehead ig)

YOU’RE TELLING ME THIS WAS A BEAUTIFUL AND FACTUALLY ACCURATE ROMANTIC SPEECH THAT ENDED A QUARREL BETWEEN TWO FATED LOVERS???

YOU’RE TELLING ME MIKE IS JUST LIKE THAT?????

Imagine accidentally writing one of the most enticing queer stories in your genre, amassing an audience who are incredibly enthusiastic about it, and ignoring that because… uh… because… ummm…

Hey man, I won’t deny that Mickey Mouse and Earache have an important bond. But they truly have some of the most awkward, wack, fall-flat face-planting “romantic” chemistry of any couple on the show, and if their relationship succeeds it will just be so funny

The people working on this show are capable of creating genuinely beautiful scenes that have brought me to tears multiple times. I have been utterly enraptured in their worlds, their characters and their stories

So if they wrote Medicine Cabinet and thought, “Another enticing romance story well done”?

If they wrote Byler and thought, “CLASSIC BFF MOMENT LADS LADS LADS”?

I would laugh so hard that I travel back in time to save myself from this nightmare

Us silly queer people don’t know shit about shit dude

Ok bye time to escape this hell

And by hell I mean a fun and wholesome time

and by a fun and wholesome time I mean HELL🔥🔥🔥🔥🥩😏

[spicybylerpolls]

Okay so here's a potential way that I can actually see a Mike and Will sex scene going down, and in a way that it would be sweet and wholesome enough that it would be difficult for anyone [even the puritans] to have a problem with it:

Mike and Will are laying together, maybe outside of the farm under the moonlight. This could also go down in a bed but I do like the idea of it being outside under the night sky [sap].

It's after a tough moment, Will is really upset and he starts to cry. It doesn't matter what it's over. Mike turns to him and embraces him, so that their bodies are pressed tightly together facing each other. A few moments go by as we hear Will crying into Mike's shoulder [how could one dislike this] but then a silence forms and Will quickly withdraws, clearly embarrassed. He looks down [so that the audience knows he got a boner]. Now the two of them are on their backs and Will starts to profusely apologize.

"Mike, I'm so sorry, I didn't mean for it to-"

"Will-"

"I really wasn't thinking it just happens and-"

"Will-"

"Sometimes I can't control it I'm so sorry-"

"Will!"

Will's head snaps over. The moonlight illuminates just a portion of his face. We see he's nervous, terrified.

Cut to Mike, who's face is much softer, sad almost.

"It's okay."

Then, we get a shot of the both of them in frame, from above, chest up. Mike reaches his hand over to Will's and, slowly, brings Will's hand over to his own dick.

"Really, it's okay Will." Mike says in a whisper, looking down.

Cut to a shot of Will, his face softening, the fear dissipating, as he realizes Mike is hard too.

Then, cut back to the shot from above/chest up. They're really close, shoulders touching. We can see that Will hasn't removed his hand from Mike. Mike moves his hand from Will's hand and onto Will's boner.

"Is this okay?" Mike asks.

Will nods. They're both gazing intently at each other this entire time.

Slowly, Mike starts to jerk Will off and then Will reciprocates [likely through pants but we don't know]. This is all through the above shot/shot of them together.

And then Mike kisses him, they start making out [intimately, slowly, matching the pace of their hands].

It gets a little more intense and then Mike breaks the kiss, the both of them pausing their hands.

Cut to shot of Mike-

"Is this really okay?"

Cut to shot of Will, soft smile, nodding

"Yes, Mike. This is okay."

And they kiss again shot from above, as they resume touching each other, cut to the next scene (maybe fade to black or whatever)

Now I'm not saying it would go down exactly like this - as in the scene starts off with Will crying and Mike comforting him because that's just me putting my own hurt/comfort spin on it. But I can definitely see the trope of them being pressed tightly together, Will getting a boner and Mike reassuring him it's okay [because he has one too] being the way their sex scene goes down. So sorry I just wrote a fanfiction in your asks but that's how I imagined the trope would play out 😭

[eepy-sleepy-snoozer]

byler!!!! bylerbylerbyler!!!!

do u have any silly predictions for s5 and do u think we will get byler getting together or nah?

I rly don't have any theories but I guess here are somethings that I rly want in season 5!

-byler. blyer kiss. byler tears. byler joy. byler. byler. byler.

-elaborating on that i want will to find out about eddie and hell fire and i want will to be sad and mike to notice and have a cute moment. and perhaps a confession as well..

-vickie and robin getting together. They're just so wholesome, and they have a nice and simple relationship setup. It would be a bit of a nice break from everything that's gonna happen next season (T▽T)

-platonic mileven. mike comes out to her. el figuring more out about herself. i want them to just be friends and finally explore their platonic relationship.

-let lumax go on their date. let max not make a full recovery and have permanent damage. make her blind. giver her a wheelchair. let her wake up to lucas by her side. let them have something. please.

-will powers perhaps?? will gets to have this season. let him be vecna'd and for mike to save him. let mike be the only one who knows his favorite song. also please let this poor boy have time with his family. let him come out to them in a nice way.

-bring back argyle pls he's so silly

honestly, I think I would just be bad writing at this point if they made byler one sided or not canon. there is no way that mike doesn't like him back at this point. it's a super big part of will's story that he's in love with mike and to just build it up and hype it up and then have him get rejected would be just awful (T△T)

sorry for taking so long to answer, i'm a very slow typer. i hope all this makes sense :,)

btw thanks for the ask!

[insertsacoolname]

(for anon) Look here's the thing,

Majority of Bylers who ship Mike and Will are minors, so they don't want a s3x scene between the two characters (and most of adult Byler don't want that either) and tell me one thing why do you always associate a gay couple with "oh they are definitely gonna have s3x" like no -

first of all they are minors and second of all a gay couple CAN exists without having s3x. While I do agree with @lordystrange but lets be real, in this whole film industry most of the movies (which contain a gay couple in it) mostly reduce the gay couple having s3x and people now have this weird mentality that gay people always make out with each other (and lets not forget about some people fetishize it). So imo it is needed to be normalise that a gay couple can exist without having s3x. Heartstopper season 2 got backlash just because of this, couples in them didn't had s3x and people were mad about it like - bro they are freaking minors!

Byler still can happen without having s3x , they can also have some wholesome kiss scenes or where they are comforting each other or having a wholesome confession scene.

Real unpopular opinion:

They should not do a Byler sex scene, not even of the Jancy kind because it would gross homophobes out! Ha!

They would ruin the iconic input in pop culture of Byler. Surprise gay love story in a mainstream genre show. surprise OTP of said mainstream genre show is surprisingly gay. That is so awesome!

They should make the Reddid Dudebros gor "Aww, they are so in love" and the middle-aged "Mileven needs 3 babies" girls go "That was so sweet!!!" You do that with adorable hugs and kisses that do not take away but are ideally totally imbedded in the exiting action. You do not do that by forcing thoughts of butts3x and c0cksucking on them, which might produce outcries of "I cringed so hard" to "I just want one show without the gay agenda!"

Frankly the Jancy sex scene put ME off Jancy and especially Murray for a while. It was sorta cringe. It would be so much worse for Byler with the GA and they do to deserve that.

while I don’t want a byler sex scene, thats for my own reasons cause i’m just uncomfortable with sex scenes. I wouldn’t mind a jancy-style scene and I don’t think the duffers should be forced to accommodate to the reddit bros cause they don’t even make up most of the fandom. they’re a minority in the community, similar to bylers in fact

[thranduel]

“byler dramatic fight kiss in the rain”

no.

byler kiss by the warmth of a fireplace in a silent moment with no one else around and no other background sounds where they actually have the chance to talk softly and cry if they need to and let everything out and then they can gently hold each other and look into each other’s eyes to make sure they’re both sure they want this and then they carefully nod before kissing softly and then pressing each other’s foreheads together with the biggest smiles on their faces as they cuddle up together with a blanket afterwards and hold each other’s hands

[rainbownixie]

s2 mike is my favorite mike. not only because it's the "crazy together" season, but because of THIS scene. look at my little meow meow listening to his friend talk!!! my precious angel whispering stuff in the middle of class and sitting next to his boyfriend!!! how gently he holds his pencil and how adorable he looks with his beige sweater and his perfect hair!!! i'd literally do anything to hug s2 mike wheeler <3

[demadogs]

If Will and Mike got together,which one do you think would compliment the other the most?

i think mike would show his love more with words and will would more with actions.

[moonflowerdamie]

i’m super bored so i’m gonna rate stranger things ships! buckle in folks, let’s get into it😎

•mileven—4/10•

it’s ok ig. i’m not like a hater of it? but it’s definitely not a great ship. no hate to mileven stans, it’s just not for me. i liked them in season 1 and 2, but it got toxic and weird in season 3 and season 4 solidified my disdain for it. i think mike needs to do some self-reflection (maybe discover a few things about himself—michael wheeler i know what you are) and i think el needs to become her own person outside of her relationship with him. i wholeheartedly support the el/mike exes-to-besties agenda though!

•jopper—8/10•

they’re so cute oml, i shipped them since season 1 and their build-up and eventual payoff was immaculate! i loved their early season tension and their kiss in season 4 was so so good. they fit so well together. they don’t get 10/10 only because a) i LOVED bob and joyce in season 2 more than life and will forever mourn that joyous man and b) i kinda loved the whole single grumpy father figure/lonely teenage daughter dynamic el and hop had.

•lumax—10/10•

this ship. this goddamn ship. the hurt/comfort. the angst. the teasing. the SOULMATISM of it all. seriously, these two are meant for each other. lucas is max’s safe place, her happiest memory and her favourite escape. max is lucas’ sunshine, his wake-up call, his reason to try. i didn’t use to love them, in fact it was only since season 4 that i’ve been such an avid shipper of them but god. they really are the softest. ‘i like talking with you, mad max’ and ‘i’m still here’ and ‘lucas!’ and the notes and the snowball and holy shit i love them sm.

•byler—7/10•

this is with the exception of season 2 byler, which gets 10/10 (‘crazy together’ oh my god). apart from that, i get the hype for it, but i also want the best for my lil ball of fruity sunshine will byers. he is my baby boy and i will protect him. and i just think that mike needs to do some growing up before he’s ready to be with will. also, i’ve never loved mike as a character (again, with the exception of s1 and 2 mike, he was a sweetie) and i think he’d end up hurting will if they got together at this point. in the future, if mike can prove that he’s matured and grown into himself, i will wholeheartedly support this relationship.

•jancy—6/10•

again, it’s ok. i did love them in season 2, but season 1 jonathan was a creep, and season 3 jancy just didn’t do it for me. jonny boy has grown on me over the seasons, but i think everybody moved on from him taking nakey nakey pictures of nancy without her knowledge wayyyyy too quickly. also, they just want different things in life and that’s ok! i do prefer them over stancy, but if i’m honest, i am absolutely a lesbian nancy supporter. the comphet on that woman is insane. so again, like mileven, i am a nancy/jonathan exes-to-besties advocate!

•stancy—4/10•

they were not it in season 4. like, it made me angry that the duffers tried to push it on us again. i did sort of like them in the early seasons, but steve was a jerk and nancy needed to grow into herself and they went their separate ways for the better. steve became a good person and nancy became the strong, independent badass woman we all know and love. i love them as friends and co-babysitters of the kids, but not as lovers. their arcs wouldn’t have happened without their break-up, and they’re both so different as people that getting back together would’ve been like going backwards. steve’s speech about kids in the van made me physically ill with how a) out of character it was and b) how the duffer brothers tried to make it seem like pushing out 6 kids and living the suburban american dream (read: nightmare) was something nancy would want, when she’s spent 3 seasons displaying an obvious disgust for that kind of life. if they get back together in s5 i’ll be throwing something at the tv.

•elmax—9/10•

they. are. so. cute. i love this ship sm, it’s so wholesome and soft. it just works as well—el allows max to explore her own kindness, her own vulnerability, her own ability to care, and max allows el to explore her own identity, what makes her happy, how to be independent. season 3 elmax was superior, but that scene in s4 where they reunite is utterly breathtaking—‘if you touch her again, i will kill you again’ protective gfs!! honestly, if i wasn’t such a lumax shipper i’d be all in for them. as it is, my motto is currently this: max has two hands! one for el and one for lucas :)

•madwheeler—1/10•

no. just no. these two actively dislike each other lmao. max is perpetually annoyed by mike’s existence and mike thinks max is like, the worst. they couldn’t even do enemies to lovers because max would steal mike’s gf in a heartbeat and would probably rather eat glass than kiss michael wheeler. they only get 1 point because finn and sadie have a sweet friendship.

•eddsy—6/10•

they would’ve been cute tbh. and since it’s been discovered that chrissy is actually 18 instead of 16, it’s not a weird one either. when i thought she was 16 i was put off, but now i’m sort of neutral on it. that scene in the woods was very sweet and her and eddie totally could have had the whole popular cheerleader gf/metalhead nerdy bf thing going on. however, it was only one episode they were in together and the ship was never one i was like ‘oh my god i love this’ so. i will say that grace van dien does not deserve the hate she gets for shipping them, especially when joseph quinn gets none of it for the same thing. other than that, it’s not massively awesome but it’s pretty cute.

•willel—0/10•

if you ship this, seek help. they are siblings.

•henclair—4/10•

they could be cute ig, but i just see them as besties. add in the fact that lumax is one of my fav ships and dustin and suzie are super cute and this ship is just sort of meh to me.

•duzie—7/10•

very sweet. nerd gf/geek bf. ‘never-ending story’ was a cultural reset and they’re both icons for it. honestly, not a ship that rocked my world but they are super cute so. 7 points.

•rockie—7/10•

at this point i just want robin to have a gf. just let maya hawke kiss a woman on this show. at first, i was super excited for these 2, but then i saw the way miss buckley looked at nancy wheeler and i was like ‘vickie who?’ (i see you duffer brothers). also, vickie’s whole character felt like a diversity box tick. like she had no originality whatsoever, they just made her a carbon copy of robin which pissed me off. however, i see the potential. i would not be unhappy if they had a fleshed out, well-developed relationship in s5. especially since vickie, a bi girl, is being played by amybeth mcnulty, a bi queen.

•steddie—5/10•

ok. so. i don’t hate this ship. i really don’t. in fact, i’ve written them in some of my ronance fics. i think they could’ve been cute. however. they hype for these two was so overdone and the way people treated them in comparison to more fleshed out, developed dynamics like ronance was really annoying. especially because the majority of steddie shippers are straight women who then deny that ronance could ever happen. the ship itself was ok, but if i’m being realistic, they didn’t have that many scenes together and the fandom of this ship ruined it for me. the fact that the majority of fics in the ronance tag on ao3 are steddie with background ronance really grinds my fucking gears, and the amount of people who are fetishising steddie because they’re both attractive men is just so fucking irritating. overall, not a bad ship but a fairly toxic fandom (not all of you, of course—chill steddie shippers are cool, but some of y’all, jesus christ)

•harringrove—1/10•

awful, awful ship. no. don’t ship steve with the racist abuser just because they’re both semi-attractive white men. only gets a point because of joe keery’s fruity (not assuming his sexuality, just joking about his actions) behaviour towards dacre montgomery.

•stobin—0/10•

robin buckley. is. a LESBIAN. she’s GAY. SHE LIKES WOMEN AND WOMEN ONLY. if you ship these two romantically, i can only assume you’re a homophobic asshole who deserves sand thrown in their eyes. unapologetically, if you ship steve and robin as a couple, i hope you slip in the shower, motherfucker.

•stonathan—2/10•

i mean, it’s not the worst??? but again, i think it’s people shipping them just because they’re two white men who talked to each other. like, did y’all forget that steve literally called jonathan a slur? and that they tried to beat the shit out of each other? i don’t hate it the way i hate harringrove, but it’s so so unlikely and i’d be so puzzled if it ever was even hinted at.

•murray/alexei—6/10•

these two would’ve been cute. and i do think murray is gay, and probably did have a little thing for alexei. i don’t know about alexei but they were definitely cute friends. and i was so betrayed and upset by his death. a fairly good ship, no complaints from me.

and finally…

•ronance—1284028/10😌🥹😍•

the best ship. for nancy, for robin, for the show, for ever. they mean the world to me. they are the world to me. if i had one wish, it would be for ronance to be canon. they make me so fucking emotional because i want what they have. as someone who so heavily relates to robin (chaotic lonely lesbian who is desperate for love but feels she may never be loved as much as she loves, possibly autistic and feels destined to be an annoyance to those around her) i want a nancy. i want to be loved in my entirety. and those two, they get each other. sure, robin irritated nancy at first and they didn’t get on, but they grew. nancy, who’s never had anyone listen to her and believe in her with such intent, finds robin, who is more than willing to, who thinks ‘nancy’s a genius’ and would follow her anywhere. robin, who thinks all she can ever be is helpless and annoying, finds nancy, who trusts her with her life, who picks her and picks her and keeps picking her, who thinks she’s just as smart as she actually is, who understands her needs and her vulnerabilities and validates her, tells her ‘it’s ok’ and ‘you got this’. these two work in a way no other ship does and they are so undeniably soulmates. they need each other. they want each other. they deserve each other. there’s a reason i write about them so much—holy shit honestly i love them so fucking much.

anyways, that got a lot longer than i thought it would! i hope you guys enjoyed my ramblings haha :)

[deanismysavior]

Since we're ending on a happy note, I'll leave my ideas of the angst of getting there out for another time lol. But I see a mutual break up between Mike and El after learning that the painting wasn't El's idea. They have their first real big heart-to-heart over it, and agree to remain good friends. At some point afterwards, Mike would bring the painting up to Will and would be gentle as possible with him about it, now knowing Will's fears of rejection, and pour his heart out letting Will know that he feels the same way. But before they're able to kiss and make it official, something happens and they have to go into battle. I can see some callback/parallel to Fear Street where Mike might tell Will that when all this is over, he'll take him to the movies and they'll eat a bunch of junk food and make out, and it makes Will laugh. Maybe another interrupted almost kiss there. The first time they kiss is when the supernatural plot is ended, and they kiss under the sunlight during a gentle passing shower, showing the difference from their rain fight in the dark.

Oh this is so cute and wholesome. Will definitely be needing more of the interrupted trope coming in for Byler in s5.

IT'S SLEEPOVER SATURDAY

Prompt: In your perfect scenario, how is Byler becoming canon?